Aoife O'Brien [00:00:02]:

Maggie, welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I am so thrilled to have you as my guest today. I know we've been talking about this for a few months, so the day has finally arrived and we're getting to have this conversation. Do you want to give a flavor of your background, how you got into doing what you're doing today? Let listeners know a little bit about you?

Maggie Jackson [00:00:21]:

Yes, I know why I would write a book about such a big, messy topic about uncertainty. Many people ask, but I come from a journalism background, so I was a foreign correspondent for a while and then a columnist, one of the first columnists in the United States, writing about work life issues and workplace issues going back at time. And that, you know, both being abroad and also writing about these social trends led me when I began to write books, to tackle some big topics, you know, such as my first book was about the nature of home and the digital age. Where can we find refuge when home is permeable and portable? The second book was called distracted, and that made a big splash. It was the first to really question what technology is doing to our attention and our relationships. And the 2018 new edition is out and also adds to our understanding of what attention is, which most people don't understand and misunderstand. That led me to this book on uncertainty, because I thought, when you have focus, attention is a vehicle. Well, what do you want to do with it? You want to think, well.

Maggie Jackson [00:01:32]:

And so I backed into this topic of uncertainty and realized and found out that it's been little studied until recently, believe it or not. And also, it's highly misunderstood, insufficiently understood by many of us. We think of it as uncertainty, as weakness and inertia. And actually, the new science of uncertainty shows that couldn't be further from the truth, that it's actually a highly powerful tool with which we can navigate this incredibly turbulent world we live in.

Aoife O'Brien [00:02:10]:

It's so interesting, Maggie, that you say that it has been not studied that much because we always talk about Vuca, and we're living in a Vuca world. And the you of Vuca is all about uncertainty. So it's like, is, do you think that people haven't studied it because the nature of what we assume it is? And maybe you can and talk about, like, why hasn't it been researched up to now? And what did we think it was? And what actually is it?

Maggie Jackson [00:02:42]:

Yes, that's great. Those are great questions. There are two reasons why uncertainty has been little studied, even in many, many different disciplines. But first, I'll start by defining uncertainty really briefly, what do I mean when I say uncertainty? And it's pretty simple. Experts agree that there are two major types of uncertainty. One is what we might call the uncertainty. So you see a headline, uncertainty royals the stock markets, and that's called aleatory uncertainty. That's really what humans can't fully know.

Maggie Jackson [00:03:17]:

Despite our mathematical models, et cetera, et cetera, we can't really know whether the stock market will be up or down at 09:00 a.m. tomorrow. And then in complement is our uncertainty. That's called epistemic. So it's psychological uncertainty. That's just our human response to the unknown. So when you meet up with something new, unexpected, and ambiguous, you basically feel kind of caught short. You've reached the limits of your knowledge.

Maggie Jackson [00:03:45]:

The stock market might rise or fall, or that traffic jam might end, and you'll get to your important meeting, or the app may or may not show you a new way. So that's this uncertainty or caught short. But then there's a kind of a hint of other possibilities. And so what has in terms of the study and in terms of popular misunderstandings, basically, we live in an extremely efficiency oriented culture and have for hundreds of years, you know, even in pre industrial times, we live in this speed driven culture. We live in a culture where our devices offer neat, pat answers, crisp answers. You know, that kind of change, what it means to know and what it means to decide. So there's this emphasis on leaping to judgment. And scholars actually inhabit this same kind of culture.

Maggie Jackson [00:04:37]:

So just for a very granular example, a psychologist might put somebody in MRI scanner and give them a task x y, et cetera. But then, historically, the scholars have been interested in whether or not they succeed or fail. What's happening in that kind of uncertainty. They're not quite sure or they're thinking it out of. That's been kind. That's just new. That's new to science. And also in terms of the business world or in medicine, the onus has been to get to the answer and jump and to be most efficient and drive toward that outcome.

Maggie Jackson [00:05:19]:

And that whole journey toward the process has been put under the rug, shelved, misunderstood. So now we're beginning to understand what is your brain on uncertainty, what kinds of uncertainty there are, how we can strategically exercise our uncertainty. I'm not talking about being comfortable with uncertainty. I'm talking about actually wielding it as a tool and being skillful in uncertainty. Our response to the unknown. That's why it's so timely today. Yeah, I'll just tell you one little study which is so fascinating and kind of drives us home. There was a study during one of the largest expansions in the EU, the marketplace nearly doubled.

Maggie Jackson [00:06:08]:

This was going back more than a decade. And it was a time of great kind of volatility and question marks for many CEO's, for leaders and decision makers. Well, two researchers went and did a kind of before and after study asking 100 european CEO's, first of all, whether they thought I, they were in control, are they going to be able to handle this? Second, did they think this was good or bad? And then when the transition came, they went back a year later to see who did well. To their utter shock, the ambivalent CEO's, the ones who weren't really sure at the beginning, were the ones who are more resourceful and more inclusive. They sought multiple perspectives, they did inventive things. They really rocked. Whereas the CEO's who said, oh yeah, I'm in control, or yes, this is going to be really good for my company, they sort of knew the way. They're the ones who actually didn't do very much at all.

Maggie Jackson [00:07:07]:

So uncertainty kind of broads us into this state of performance and learning, which is fascinating.

Aoife O'Brien [00:07:15]:

I think it's, for me, it's interesting what you're saying, because before our conversation, I was thinking we'll be talking about uncomfortable and sitting in discomfort when you feel uncertain. But I love how you've moved it beyond and it's like how to use that as a tool. And in the example you shared about those CEO's, I would imagine they were maybe feeling uncomfortable about not knowing the answers and they thought having an answer, having a definitive answer is better than being uncertain or not having any answer at all, when in fact what you're saying is if you remain open in an uncertain environment, that means that you end up doing the right thing because you've left things open and you are able to sit with that. And they may not have intentionally used uncertainty as a tool. They may have just been okay with sitting in discomfort. But actually, as it turns out, sitting with that and being okay with uncertainty was to their benefit.

Maggie Jackson [00:08:20]:

Yes. And I would say it's not really about sitting with uncertainty. It's actually an active, dynamic, productive force. I call uncertainty wisdom and motion. But you made an important point. It's one thing to be open to uncertainty and some people are more so than others. And I'd love to touch on that point as well. Individual differences.

Maggie Jackson [00:08:42]:

Some people are able to see uncertainty as a challenge, not a threat. That's a person who is a more flexible thinker. It's a kind of personality trait, but also, it's not just a matter of sitting with uncertainty. So, first of all, just to address the idea of the discomfort, that's absolutely true. What we're doing when we are unsure productively and skillfully is actually investing in getting to the better answer, not the first answer or the insufficient answer. Actually, scientists have begun to discover that uncertainty is good stress. Now, when you hit with that or you encounter that traffic jam or the memo from your boss, that's a little murky and scary, or even an employee who's threatening to quit, that new situation gives you a stress response. You might get classic stress symptoms like rising cortisol or your heart may race.

Maggie Jackson [00:09:44]:

But this is where the new neuroscience of uncertainty allows us to understand that uncertainty. When you're uncertain, your working memory is bolstered, your focus sharpens, and your brain becomes more receptive to new information. Wow. Uncertainty is good stress. I call it wakefulness, and scientists call it arousal. So that's why I use the term provocative. And when you are uncertain, you actually are able to be on your toes and alert and awake to what's going on around you, the nuances, the opportunities, the possibilities. And, in fact, in the United States, a study of emergency room doctors showed that when they were in sticky emergency clinical situations and they were unsure, they reported that their attention was heightened.

Maggie Jackson [00:10:34]:

Scientists also call this curious eyes, which I love that term. That's, of course, able. That helped the doctors perform better when they're on their toes. This is the other important point, is this is distinct from fear. We have multiple stress symptoms, stress systems in our brain and our body, and the arousal is distinct from the fear response. So, say you're terrified by this sticky clinical situation or the memo from your boss. What happens then is a kind of shutting down. Uncertainty is an opening up.

Maggie Jackson [00:11:10]:

As you were talking about, all of the systems when you're fearful are shutting down, particularly your brain. So you might be able to fight or flight, primitively react, but you're not thinking well. So we need to lean into uncertainty and kind of avert that fear one way we do it. Really simple. Studies out of, you know, studies of people in dynamic learning environments show that just expecting change actually sets us up for the signal of uncertainty and for this arousal. So, for instance, if you walk into a meeting and you kind of think, hey, more of the same, blah, blah, blah, Monday morning, oh, my gosh. Well, you're basically not tuning into the signal of your uncertainty, and you're not expecting change. You're expecting the world to be predictable, and that really leads to performance decrements.

Maggie Jackson [00:12:08]:

And you're just tuning out of the world uncertainty. This arousal is just fascinating. And learning the distinction, really, I think, helps decision makers when they're uncomfortable. As you were saying, brilliant.

Aoife O'Brien [00:12:21]:

I love that. Talk to me a little bit more, Maggie, about the individual differences that you mentioned. That's more of, like, a personality trait. People who embrace uncertainty versus the ones who are kind of quick to make decisions, let's say.

Maggie Jackson [00:12:36]:

Yes, exactly. So I've been talking about uncertainty as a spur and a provocation, as a kind of a state of mind. And then there are also strategies to deal with different types of uncertainty, even a daydream to do it creatively or a crisis deliberation can be done with productive uncertainty. But as well, there is a personality trait that is linked to how we deal with uncertainty, our attitude toward uncertainty. In other words, you or I might be more or less shy or conscientious according to the big five personality traits, but as well, we are more or less called tolerant of uncertainty. So people who were, say, in the acute days of the pandemic, in fact, people who were highly intolerant of uncertainty were more likely to use denial, avoidance, and substance abuse to cope with the pandemic. They saw it as a threat and they wanted to run away. There's that fear response, whereas people who are highly tolerant feel capable, feel as though it's a challenge.

Maggie Jackson [00:13:45]:

Their unsureness and the volatility out there is a challenge, not a threat. They were more likely to accept the realities of the situation, and then, of course, they can decide how to perform or what strategies to take. So there is a spectrum. But the good news is, the important news is, well, two things. One, it's situational. So everyone, when we are under time pressure, we all become more intolerant. We all hunker down and leap to that first answer and start thinking rigidly. That's something to be aware of if you're tired or overwhelmed.

Maggie Jackson [00:14:23]:

But the second thing is your tolerance can be boosted. Actually, psychologists are working with people. It's a very new field as part of anxiety studies or mental disorders. And if you can bolster your tolerance of uncertainty, and again, this is not about comfort, it's about skill, if you can bolster your talent of uncertainty, you're less likely to be vulnerable to anxiety. You're more likely to be curious and a flexible thinker. You're just better able to deal with life. You've got that bendability, that curiosity. It's even related to curiosity and doctors.

Maggie Jackson [00:15:05]:

The medical world is creating interventions to help doctors become less anxious, but also better diagnosticians, et cetera. The great news, again, is that we can bolster our tolerance, but it's also through very simple exercises. Psychologists and others are working with people. Bye. Say, just asking them to delegate more at work, you know, just to kind of be a little more open to the less control. Or try a new dish in a restaurant, which sounds so silly that when you start to think about it, you go out to dinner on a Friday night, you're tired, you want the same old restaurant, the comfortable. I found, you know, I do this, and, you know, I love the clam spaghetti. I don't want to.

Maggie Jackson [00:15:52]:

And so. And also actually putting down your smartphone, putting down your phone, or answering your phone without caller id, that lends itself to more practice because it's basically based on exposure therapy. If I'm afraid of a spider, the counselor will guide me to sitting next to a plastic one and then a real one in a cage, et cetera. Well, in this case, we are exposing us, ourselves to a little bit more of the unknown, and then we gain practice, and then we see it's not the disaster we feared, that we can gain skill in being in uncertainty, being unsure, and contending with what life is going to throw at us. So it's just fascinating, the tolerance, and, in fact, another important point for the workplace and for happiness at work is that it's not just we, you have different levels of tolerance, of uncertainty, but actually workplaces, even teams, organizations, countries. So there are sort of cultures related to uncertainty. And so one study of 70,000 employees across different countries, across different fields and companies found that if a leader was dealing with a very highly intolerant of uncertainty culture, that is very rule bound, you know, didn't like to not know what was going on, needed certainty in the messaging. If they were dealing with that, well, then it was best for job happiness, job engagement, to actually be a little more clear, a little bit more solid.

Maggie Jackson [00:17:36]:

Now, that doesn't mean they can offer certainty, but it means that they could calibrate their messaging, and that led to, you know, job satisfaction. At the same time, the people who are in a very highly tolerant, maybe a high tech startup or something like that, you can be more easygoing and free flowing about your messaging, say about training, everyone's going to be trained. If the culture is intolerant, you might want to say, well, everyone gets this, but your job is secure. This is a learning. In the other case, with tolerant workplaces, the boss might say, we're all getting training so we can stretch and grow, and who knows what will happen? And see what I mean? The difference is distinct. So calibrating our messaging to the group and to even individuals on your team is important.

Aoife O'Brien [00:18:30]:

Yeah. So I suppose understanding people's tolerance level of uncertainty, and is that to do with control? So you mentioned this idea of control a lot. Is there sort of a direct converse correlation between the two things? Like, is it, is it that we are so used to having control, that we want to have control, that if something arises and it causes uncertainty, then that makes us feel like we're out of control? Is that really the crux of it?

Maggie Jackson [00:19:03]:

Well and productive, skillful uncertainty does come. Part is, it's part and parcel of what I'm talking about is that you are not in 100% control. And again, this is not what our culture has dished up in the western world for 500 years. We as humans think about how we've treated the earth. We think we're in total control. We think that we can completely understand and then control nature. Well, even in the workplace, we don't have total control. So there is an admission here of intellectual humility that comes part and parcel.

Maggie Jackson [00:19:43]:

But one thing to stress here is that while we might be talking about some discomfort, we might be talking about even a little bit of time that it takes leaping to an answer, leaping to judgment, an insufficient or first answer is a little quicker than investing even just a few minutes. We might be talking about all these new ways of thinking that are a bit contrary to this instant, fixed society that we live in. But at the same time, what again we're doing is investing, dealing with the long run, with the better answer. And I think that opens up our workplaces, our decision making. And so people who have told me, who have become able to understand and practice uncertainty, people who've been trained in psychology or medicine or even the business world, tell me they use the same word again and again when we can now, uncertainty productively, it's liberating. You lose all that worry about performing, about having the right answer all the time. That's a really important point. One other very important pillar of uncertainty.

Maggie Jackson [00:21:01]:

I mentioned it as a prod and as a kind of approach to life, but also, it's also a tool. So just to circle back to that, it's important to realize that when you are in a crisis deliberation, or when you are collaborating with a group, or when you are trying to deal with someone whose opinions you oppose or loathe. These are all times when we can wield a different kind of uncertainty. I went up to Toronto, and I actually embedded myself in operating rooms, because these are people who really need to know the answer. It's life or death, and they're under pressure to work so fast, and their whole Persona is certain. Well, actually, studies show that, you know, the true expert, the true superior performer, is the one who knows how and when to be unsure in new situations. For instance, I witnessed a near miss in a operating room, you know, with a. A swaggering surgeon who really epitomizes what we think of as the ideal expert, the ideal CEO.

Maggie Jackson [00:22:14]:

But in essence, that is a bit of a fallacy, that this is the person who can really deal with this volatile world. We gain expertise just briefly, by practice and experience, etcetera, accrue these mental models and heuristic shortcuts. So the doctor who hears chest pains thinks heart attack. That's what experience is. Know how, you know, our knowledge becomes second nature. So that's a very impressive, and, you know, exactly the quick, sure know how that we idolize today. But that actually has shown to be a performance that's only good in routines. So when.

Maggie Jackson [00:23:01]:

So actually, studies show that years of experience are only weekly or not correlated at all with skill and accuracy in accounting and finance in the workplace, and many different, you know, we've seen that the kind of complacent, seen it all, know it all, you know, the more I know, the less I have to try kind of Persona that now I.

Aoife O'Brien [00:23:22]:

Have nothing new to learn.

Maggie Jackson [00:23:24]:

Yeah, see that we in every profession that we're all kind of, you know, buy into that. But at the same time, now, studies of expertise have shown another echelon, a higher echelon called adaptive expertise. They are the people who inhabit the question. So when they hit that new problem, they actually wade in. They tend to look at multiple options about what's going wrong, which is actually hard to do. It's easier to take one and leap. That's quick fix. And then secondly, they test and evaluate those options.

Maggie Jackson [00:24:03]:

This is all something that goes on in just a few minutes. And then they also are able to, you know, they, as I say, they inhabit the question. So this is adaptive expertise. This is the kind of person we really should be idolizing, not just the routine fast expert. And that CEO study really shows it to be a case. There's certain people who are willing to be ambivalent, were able to take the time to listen to others they took the time to be inventive. They were basically the adaptive experts, and that's what we want to be in a volatile world. If you're relying on your heuristic thinking, that means you're relying on what you've learned in the past.

Maggie Jackson [00:24:50]:

Your first thought, your first gut instinct is based on what you learned in the past. Only by getting past your old knowledge can you become nimble. And that's what uncertainty gives you, being willing to inhabit the question. It's a really important distinction, and it changes what it means to be a leader, what it means to be successful in a crisis, what it means to be a performer, and it really changes that for the better. And I've talked with so many executives and directors and managers who are, again, liberated, but also just heartened by hearing how they can learn and grow and adapt and be flexible in the middle of the most challenging times.

Aoife O'Brien [00:25:43]:

There is so much to unpack from that. Maggie, if you bear with me, are you familiar with the work of Barry Schwartz? He talks about the paradox of choice. So I'm kind of hearing it's not exactly the same, but what he talks about, and it kind of, to me, something that you said earlier reminded me of that was this idea that when you're presented with, with options, some people are okay to go with the option that meets their minimum requirement. And to me, it was like, oh, that's like the first choice, let's say, rather than the best choice. And then there's the maximizers, people like me, who will keep looking until they find the absolute best of the best. And so it was just something that I thought it was like, and it's not settling. I think there's a lot to be said for something or for someone who has the ability to set a certain standard and to reach that standard. I am not that kind of person.

Aoife O'Brien [00:26:44]:

I prefer to go for, like, let me find a what is the absolute best thing that I can do in this situation? Which means I do much more research, which means, you know, I want to find the best of the best, basically. Any thoughts on kind of the relationship between what you're talking about and that idea of choice and our various different options and maybe the uncertainty that people have around that?

Maggie Jackson [00:27:10]:

Yeah, sure. Well, first of all, Schwartz deals with things like buying jam and buying or looking in an apartment. I mean, these are all situations in which. And I like to distinguish between our uncertainty and volatility.

Aoife O'Brien [00:27:27]:

Okay. Yes.

Maggie Jackson [00:27:28]:

I try not to use the same word uncertainty, even though that's what we do in the popular imagination. So when I mean external unknowns or unpredictabilities in the housing market, when you're looking for the department that, you know, that's distinct from our uncertainty. And I think that, you know, while his research and my research and the research I'm talking about deals with uncertainty because it deals with life choices. And there's a distinction here. When you are doing things like progressive deepening as an expert, when you're in a crisis, either long term, a difficult project gone wrong, or a crisis in the operating room, that's a different kind of higher order challenge and situation, then I'm in this marketplace buying jam. You know, which product is going to catch my attention. You know, you can be overwhelmed by 30 and he deals with 30. What I'm talking about is more of a fluid situation in a dynamic.

Aoife O'Brien [00:28:38]:

Not even options. There's not options, there's just no knowns.

Maggie Jackson [00:28:41]:

Well, you want options. You know, in both cases, you know, he's dealing with one option. People are shutting down and going for the first because whatever, for whatever reason, it suits them. Sometimes people go when they are dealt with. When they're given 30 choices of jam, they usually just leave the store. So there is this sweet spot of numbers of options. The expertise research really shows that, but you want to again, harness, wield your uncertainty, inhabit the question, explore options. But that research also underlines that too many options are not good.

Maggie Jackson [00:29:22]:

There's another study about anesthesiologists who show that if they're trying to understand a problem of a patient choking, it's a simulation in the operating room. And those who look at, again, ten or 15 options tend to not come up with the right answer. Those who look at one option tend not to come up with the diagnostic right answer, but they basically don't save the patient. But the people who are looking at multiple options and then testing and evaluating them, wading in, it's called progressive deepening. You are both widening your frame for dealing with the problem and you're deepening it. So a lot of people talk in the business world about, about getting more options or widening your options. And even though that's actually not done very much, one study shows that a series of studies shows that 80% of strategic business decisions are based on examining one option only, which is not great.

Aoife O'Brien [00:30:23]:

That does not surprise me whatsoever.

Maggie Jackson [00:30:26]:

Yeah, exactly. It makes sense. But investigating multiple options is important. But at the same time, you don't want to go too far on that extreme. But then the important thing that gets lost is deepening deepening, you're getting under the hood of that problem, that predicament set situation. And the other thing that I'd have to say is that when we're talking about uncertainty, and I suppose it could be jam, it could be a crisis, it could be a product that's not working and you have to fix. It could be all sorts of life situations you are dealing with dynamic, you know, dynamic situations you're dealing with this. And it's just, it's whether or not it's jam or a crisis, what you want to do is, you know, move in productively and strategically and know that your uncertainty, a is not a negative and b is understand how to, you know, work with that uncertainty and, and then, you know, get to the resolution.

Maggie Jackson [00:31:37]:

Because the other thing about uncertainty that's really important to note and everything I, you know, goes along with everything I'm saying today is we want answers. I mean, that's one of the reasons we're uncomfortable. That's one of the reasons we get a stress response. We evolved as organisms to need an answer for survival sake. And even in contemporary society, no one's idea of the good life is to remain in limbo. So therefore, this is all, all I'm talking about is the process of getting the right answer. And along the way, uncertainty jolts you from your old assumptions. Uncertainty allows you to see multiple possibilities and others perspectives.

Maggie Jackson [00:32:20]:

And uncertainty allows you to see nuance rather than just the bare bones of a situation. So those are tremendous capabilities when in special case situations, uncertainty is not, for most of our lives, are routine. That's why scientists talk about predictive processing. We expect that our house is in the same place when we drive home. We expect that we know how to make a cup of coffee. That's true for the most part. We can sail through life seamlessly through our expectations and our assumptions and our learned old knowledge. But it's when something's new which is actually, actually you begin to think of, feel the flavor of excitement and curiosity.

Maggie Jackson [00:33:07]:

Uncertainty is when there is kind of an adventure, even though we might not see it that way at all times.

Aoife O'Brien [00:33:16]:

Another thing that's sort of coming up for me is this idea that you had mentioned about the importance of leadership and questions. And an interesting conversation I had earlier today actually was around this idea of leaders not being the one to provide answers. Like, that's actually not the role of the leader, it's more as a coach and asking those questions. And I think what you're talking about really lends itself to that, to become a better leader by asking questions. And I think, as you put it, sitting in the question.

Maggie Jackson [00:33:47]:

Yeah, exactly. Inhabiting the question. I think you're so right. And this work on uncertainty, the unsure, superior performance, where it seems like a contradiction in terms, has so much, it really changes what it means to be an expert or a leader. So, you know, currently in society, we really do expect leaders to walk into the room and know just what to do, even when there's a new complex problem, even a few minutes thinking. Studies show, you know, if a person, if a leader pauses when they're dealing with a new complex problem, they can be seen as less influential. That culture is real. But at the same time, that's when we want someone to think a little more, to have a second thought, to productively move in.

Maggie Jackson [00:34:39]:

So we have to get rid of our assumptions and our old stereotypes of what a leader is, what an expert is, and then begin to understand that the adaptive expert, the expert who's not slow, but who's investing in a better solution, is the one we really should want to follow. And again, leaders and managers who have been acquainted with and who are trying to practice these lessons about productive uncertainty tell me that instead of becoming authority, handing down knowledge, unquestioning, they become a partner, a partner. Partner in the learning. And this actually links to collective collaboration and uncertainty, because actually, when you're in a group, uncertainty plays a really important role, too. And just briefly, we all want to be in agreement on the project, on the memo, on this task, the team is, you know, encountering. But agreement is actually highly toxic, if overdone in a group. Of course, we've all heard of group.

Aoife O'Brien [00:35:57]:

Think, then is it?

Maggie Jackson [00:35:58]:

But this is far more than that. I mean, if a team is in agreement, no matter how diverse the team is, no matter how diverse, they become less willing to challenge one another, less creative, less accurate, and they think they're doing better than they really are because there's that fluency and ease of agreement. We want to get there, but if we kind of hang out, I call it hanging out on the love seat of a cord. That actually is very toxic for team performance on multiple measures. But disagreement works because there's so many wonderful things about airing differences and offering dissent and et cetera. But why does it work? We might think that teams that are in disagreement are airing differences respectfully, respectfully, productively. Maybe that's better for the team because the right answer wins. But that's actually not true, because even a wrong dissenting opinion or a wrong side of the equate of the argument is actually still able to provoke performance gains on all of these measures, because disagreement that's productive sparks uncertainty and then a kind of questioning mindset.

Maggie Jackson [00:37:18]:

Individuals start speaking up about their individual knowledge. I mean, the group goes into a totally different, it's called effervescent, which is lovely, you know, bubbly, energetic. You know, discussions are better. And this is true of workplace teams and the Supreme Court and Mount Everest climbing exhibitions, etcetera. And so I studied in depth, a team, NASA team that has been putting the rovers on Mars, those wonderful rods, and there are tremendous amounts of information. And they've been highly studied because they're so innovative. And they were a team that was highly bonded but constantly cultivated a space for disagreement. They literally would say, the bosses would say to the team, we have to be in a place of questioning.

Maggie Jackson [00:38:05]:

We have to be in a place where people can say, I don't know, I don't understand. And that's what made them successful. 20% of their conversations were micro conflicts. That is productive, kind of soft spoken, actually subtle kind of conflicts and disagreements and all of those involved expressions of uncertainty. So that would be maybe, I don't think, but possibly. Well, sometimes I've read these transcripts and they don't look like war. They look like moving the group ahead and understanding what they don't know. And these little words like maybe, again, we might think, my gosh, a CEO or a leader can't say maybe.

Maggie Jackson [00:38:51]:

I mean, my goodness. But actually, studies show that people who use hedge words, executives in hot button situations who use hedge words like maybe or sometimes are seen as more accessible, they're better teammates. And then the real clincher is that when you use this kind of vocabulary of uncertainty, again, judiciously at the right time, that you also signaling that there's something more to know. Keeping the problem open, which I love and is really important, and yet only, I think, 40% of workers in workplaces are trained to deal with conflict of any kind. And another 40% of workers say conflict is.

Aoife O'Brien [00:39:40]:

I'm surprised it's so high, to be honest.

Maggie Jackson [00:39:44]:

Well, when they are trained, 75% of those who gain, have training in conflict say that they're more confident and comfortable wing disagreement. And I think it's really well known that uncertainty is the rocket fuel there, but we have a long way to go to kind of create and make more sophisticated these types of strategies to.

Aoife O'Brien [00:40:13]:

Be able to embrace it.

Maggie Jackson [00:40:15]:

Yeah, exactly. Yes. Especially in a world where now people hire for fit and they say, get on the same page and actually, because diversity itself, on all different kinds, from knowledge to racial, etcetera, does naturally create friction because, you know, different pieces of the wheel are distinctly different, that friction is often, in workplaces tried to smooth over or eradicate it. And that's the worst thing workplaces can do.

Aoife O'Brien [00:40:46]:

Yeah, no, it's so interesting. I was going to drill into that a little bit because I do talk about fate and I talk about values alignment, but when I talk about that, the important thing is the diversity of thought. So having those diverse think I'm the kind of person who, if there's no one else in the team to do this, I love to do the devil's advocate, you know, what if this wasn't the right answer and just kind of throwing a spanner in the works slightly to, you know, to get people to think, but what if this wasn't really the answer? I wanted to come back to something that you said and challenge a little bit or understand a little bit more around it, because. Because I know we're not talking about gender on the podcast today, but someone who's been on previously has spoken about the difference between, say, a male CEO says maybe or sometimes, versus a female CEO says maybe or sometimes, and the difference in perception. So for a man, it's okay to say that, and he's like, oh, wow, he's humble. And for a woman, oh, she has no idea what she's talking about. If she says maybe. Any thoughts? Like, have you seen any research around that I'd be curious to know?

Maggie Jackson [00:41:56]:

Well, I've seen research showing that actually, this is more of a myth than we think, that maybe. I can see that men and women are perceived differently in our cultures, but it's not as much as an obstacle as is often talked about. So the strength of using the word maybe, that's derived from many studies and that indicates conversational receptiveness. And also, inclusion is really highly related. To be inclusive as a leader is highly related to employee engagement, as you know. So these, this sorts of conversation. But what I'd say is, you know, that said, of course, you know, the culture, our workplaces do treat women differently. So what's really important to understand here is that this is not binary.

Maggie Jackson [00:42:44]:

There are no perfect words here. It's not a matter of, you know, someone's throwing up their hands and saying, I don't know, or, you know, maybe. And that's it. Because many, many studies show that uncertainty is persuasive, for instance, when it's linked to potential. So a doctor might say, I'm not sure right now, but I'm going to, you know, consult with two others. And so we're going to get to the bottom of this. I can see multiple options for your treatment that's, I don't know, which is very, you know, linked to potential and not just persuasive, but also, you know, still retains the expertise that the patient wants. As similarly in the business world, I think that there are ways that we can start to create and use vocabulary that's less raw and not, and more effective than just, you know, a bold maybe.

Maggie Jackson [00:43:43]:

And the, the transcripts of the Mars mission were really fascinating and because there was a whole vocabulary in and around. And of course, you know, you use maybe when you are delineating options, but you have solid thinking behind your, you know, the options that you're communicating. You use maybe when you're trying to actually communicate to the team or the employee workforce that there are options, but there are possibilities and that there is accountability. We're all going to be exploring different roads rather than just the road. I say now the opposite of these hedge words. I actually don't know the term, I don't know why, but it's the non hedge words. And these are words like, therefore, air neuron. It shuts down the conversation.

Maggie Jackson [00:44:40]:

And so we might say, oh, women are treated differently when they use these words. But I think the picture is very complicated women's way of working. If indeed they use these words more. I'm not convinced that they might. But if they do use these words more, well, the world is changing, their impact is changing, their numbers are changing. And so along with this, we can, can utilize this and all be, if not rebels, then at least push the culture forward to a place where, again, of uncertainty, which means open mindedness, which means considering uncertainty as a space of possibilities. Uncertainty is that signal that there's something more to know. In fact, one neuroscientist told me that uncertainty is the brain telling itself there's something to be learned here.

Maggie Jackson [00:45:37]:

And that's a great, that's a great sentence for, you know, managers and employees alike to use. We can begin to utilize the new science of uncertainty to move our attitudes and our understanding and our strategies in and around this mindset forward. All of us can be accountable to, basically, because when you think about it, theres so many different studies that show the world is growing more volatile. I mean, we can look it around. We can feel and sense climate change. We can experience the extremes, we can see volatility in our geopolitics. In economics and many measures, especially among more vulnerable people in the population, the IMF has called this the decade of uncertainty. And again, they can mean the rising unknowns, but also perhaps the, our response.

Maggie Jackson [00:46:36]:

So the question is, amidst this turbulent decade, turbulent era, well, how will we respond? And that's where uncertainty comes in, the wisdom of uncertainty.

Aoife O'Brien [00:46:48]:

Love it. Love it so. Well, there's so much wisdom in everything that you've shared today. Thank you so much, Maggie. And the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Maggie Jackson [00:47:01]:

Well, I think both in my own case, as a reporter who's covered wars and conflicts and arts and culture and everything in between, and also, I think in a meta way, from everything I've learned with my research and studies and books, is that I think, I think, well, first of all, there's a distinction between different types of happiness. One is kind of a hedonistic seeking of comfort. And one incredible study, among others, shows that when people seek comfort in order, the easy street, they're actually less happy. In the long run, they might get something, you know, easy, something easier and comforting immediately. But what a real happyness is meaning making. These are the people who tend to be more givers than takers as well. So I think that on the score of meaning making, unhappiness is an ability to deal with volatility, with skill and prowess and humility. Happiness in these deeper, richer terms is dealing with life and its difficulties with open mindedness, not denial.

Maggie Jackson [00:48:16]:

And so that's why I say uncertainty, productive uncertainty, is liberating. And then a happier route.

Aoife O'Brien [00:48:24]:

Love us. Love. And if people want to find out more about you, if they want to connect, if they want to buy your books, what's the best place that they can do that?

Maggie Jackson [00:48:33]:

Sure. My contact information is on my website, Maggie jackson.com, and you can find lots and lots of articles that I've written, excerpts from my book, how to buy my book, etcetera, more information on me, and then certainly reach out on LinkedIn if you'd like. I'm most available there. And just google me and you'll find also other resources.

Aoife O'Brien [00:48:57]:

Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, for sharing your wisdom. I think there's so many insights to be unpacked from what you've said. But, like, I just love the whole concept of this. So thank you so much for sharing.

Maggie Jackson [00:49:10]:

Thank you so much for all your wonderful curiosity about uncertainty, and thank you for the honor of being on your show.