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On this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, we talk about pastor appreciation.

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You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes

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and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.

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And now, here are your hosts Joel DeMott and Andy Lehman.

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Andy, Joel.

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How are you?

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I'm excellent.

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I'm a little tired.

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It's been a long weekend, but I'm excellent.

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I'm going to say I'm excellent.

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You've had a lot of really amazing things actually happen here recently.

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Yes.

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One of them is that Hattie Mae, the really the star of the layman show, the whole layman

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show, or as I'm concerned.

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Yeah, I mean, she got her, she wouldn't got baptized.

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She did.

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So today, special day.

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Yeah, it was.

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So last time we have four children and the last of last of the show, the layman children

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are the weas, the weas, the weas default of all the layman's was baptized today.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah, I will say I saw the video you posted, but I was in a situation where I was unable

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to, I just, I was, it was a silent film for me.

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Gotcha.

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I should have put captions up.

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Maybe, maybe you should have, because I don't know what I was doing something else.

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And, but what I was really, what I was most concerned about was, were you able to get

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through without, without just trying like that?

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I was.

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That's great.

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Yeah, I did.

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It was this time.

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Did you feel like you had to like mentally prepare for that?

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Like, or you just like, Hey, we're just going to do this and whatever happens happens.

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Yeah, it was the latter of the two.

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It was kind of like, whatever happens, like, I didn't know if I was going to be, I kind

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of, I'm an emotional, like normally.

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And so, well, it, when it's your, when it's your little and you're, it's such a, it's

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such a powerful experience.

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I to this day, if like my Achilles heel for the crying is anytime, anytime a kid, I was

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baptized like anytime a child.

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Oh my gosh.

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It just like, Oh, it gets me.

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So no, no difference with, no difference with Hattie though.

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That's awesome.

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Yeah.

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Super, super great.

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Next, next step in her, in her journey.

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Let's see anything else interesting going on with you.

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You did, you were kind of go, go, go this weekend.

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Yeah.

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This weekend kind of seemed go, go, go.

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So it was kind of like, it's good to sit down and kind of take a few breaths and talk to

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you gentlemen.

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Absolutely.

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Well, yeah, we had our, today was our last Matthew last outdoor soccer.

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We managed to get without any bad weather, but of course today was like, today was the

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final, it's like the final game.

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We had to travel long distance and bear the rain in the wind, but we got through it and

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yeah, Jackie and so I had two of the kiddos here with me this weekend.

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He was out of town for a family birthday celebration out in the Cleveland, Ohio and she's on her

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way back now as we speak.

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And then we hit the ground running tomorrow as, as is always the case.

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Monday's always got back at it Monday.

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Yes.

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Well, hey, as always, or not usually not as always, but usually we have a guest on and

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tonight is no different.

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A returning, I was trying to remember it's alumnus, right?

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Because when you say alumni, that's like the plural.

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Right.

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And Tyler is only a single person.

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He's not a multi person.

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No, he's single.

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So our good friend Tyler Hartford is here with us and the reason we have Tyler with

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us is because Tyler brings with him the perspective of, because he works with pastors and we're

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talking about pastor appreciation.

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And for those of you, I think this will be an interesting thing.

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Some of you, we know our audience is kind of all over the place in terms of backgrounds

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and perspectives and all of that.

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And so some of you are like, pastor appreciation, like what's this all about?

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And some of you are our church going folk and some of you are pastors.

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So we thought this is appropriate.

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The whole mix.

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So, but for those of you that aren't as familiar, I think, I think even as we talk about pastor

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appreciation, it gives some insights into, into the challenge of leaders today, currently,

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broadly speaking, it's a broad leadership challenge.

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But just organizations, how they're, how they're functioning, how they take care of

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their leaders, how they think about their leaders and thriving and all of that.

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So hey, Tyler, hi, welcome.

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Thanks for being with us.

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Hey, great to be here with you guys.

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Oh, it's a joy, an absolute joy.

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Tyler was already on one of these episodes this season.

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Yeah.

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So he's, that's why he's an alumnus.

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Right.

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No, I mean, I recently, like he was on recently.

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Yes.

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So that's true.

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It wasn't too long ago actually.

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Right.

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Yes.

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Time flies.

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Yeah.

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So it is pastor appreciation month, the great month of October.

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And for those of you listening, maybe your church right now has done something to acknowledge

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the people that shepherd your congregation that lead.

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There's all number of different, you know, different ways that various churches do this.

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But I was just thinking, you know, when talking, when talking about our pastors, talking about

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those that are kind of leading organizations and spiritually, you know, those sort of things.

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When you think about your pastor, whoever that is, what comes to your mind?

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How are the pastors that we know?

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How are they doing?

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You know, personally and professionally.

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So when you, I think that is a question that it's a simple question.

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Like, I think it's easy, but the whole point of like pastor appreciation is to like to

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again, to like bring to our minds like, oh, pastors are pastors are people too.

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You know, they have, they have challenges.

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They have, they have, you know, families, they have all these sorts of, and so just the

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first question is, is like, for any of us, when you think about your pastor, how do you

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think they're doing?

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Have you, have you asked?

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Have you?

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And the trickier thing is, have you asked, and do you think you got a serious, a serious

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answer?

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You did a safe environment for that real answer.

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Yeah, yeah, right.

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Yeah.

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Some spaces, a pastor may not actually feel safe.

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They, they feel.

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I'm always anticipating, you know, I know I said it many times when I was in vocational

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ministry, people ask me how you're doing, and I use the Christian F word.

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Fine.

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I'm fine.

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And, and sometimes that was true.

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And probably sometimes it wasn't, if I would have given a second, although knowing that

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there were times where I didn't just give the Christian F word answer and, and sometimes

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people were not prepared for what I would share with them.

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Right?

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Like it was a little bit of a, you know, it's like, be careful what happens when you ask

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me to tell the truth.

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So Tyler, in your role as someone who works with a, with a network of churches representing

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over 50 congregations, kind of all across Midwest, out to the, out East Coast and then

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into the kind of the central heartland, I guess we could say.

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What is the farthest West?

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I'm trying to, because you're out, you're out to the East Coast.

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In Iowa, there's a gentleman we relate to out in California, but then I'm also part

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of a, a online huddle once a month with, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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A donation about 40 pastors.

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Yeah.

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Serving in larger context.

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And this is why I think having Tyler conversation, Andy, like as you and I talked earlier.

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Well, it gives us a bigger, broader scope of overall, what's happening in the church.

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Right.

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You know, then really just what we're seeing here.

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So, so I guess Tyler, maybe in, in the, in the aggregate, as you think about these meetings

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that you, for the last, you know, for last, well, I mean, while now between sitting with

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executive pastors who are, you know, and, and leaders of various to not, you know, various

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denominational backgrounds, all of that.

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And then also your leadership role within the Avana network.

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What, how do you feel like, like, apart from the studies, we're going to talk about some

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study things that can't, that have been released.

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But what has been your sense?

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Like, how are people doing?

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Well, let's, let's just first acknowledge that when you say pastor, are you working

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with someone that's quarter time, half time, working a full time job, really doing two

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full time jobs to the pastor who's basically doing everything with the office administrator

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to multi staff to, you know, mega church with 30, 40 people on staff or more.

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You know, so that let's just acknowledge that we're never going to cover all the dining

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racks on this call.

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And then what that minister is expected to cover can vary as well, right?

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You can be very specialized as the teaching pastor or the youth pastor, or you may wind

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up just basically having to do everything.

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Yeah.

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So, so what I'm going to try to know are a couple of key pieces that affect probably

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all of them.

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Great.

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One is, let's face it, when we went to the pandemic, we trained people to find community

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online.

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And there's many who have learned that, you know, frankly, I don't miss being in the

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gathered body.

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And so, since churches are not businesses, they don't create products.

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They specialize in relationships when you have meaningful relationships with people who then

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just suddenly disappear.

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That's, that's difficult.

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Right.

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Pastors are dealing in relationship regardless of the role they're in.

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And it can be put together with you as you think they may be, you know, they may be just

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stoic, but the reality is you're in the people business.

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So we've gone through a very disorienting time.

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Then those who have stayed engaged with the gathered body, there's been a lot of shifting.

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There's been alignment along more political silos in congregate.

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Yeah.

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So you'll see whole groups leave and just show up at another church because of the political

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landscape, the health landscape, et cetera.

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And then what you're also seeing is just like the baby boomers, the baby boomer generation

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is pulling out of large sections of the marketplace.

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I'm seeing a large swath of baby boomer generation pastors stepping out.

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So you have tremendous collective wisdom that have been at it for 20, 30, 40 years.

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And they're actually taking retirement in many cases at an earlier age as opposed to

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in the past, they would stay in the past for it and just kind of do the slow fade.

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And so you're just seeing a lot of shifts in the landscape.

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And one study I saw basically said that we have seen in the course of two to three years

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the acceleration of leaving pastors leaving and congregational decline that you really

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would have expected after about seven to 10 years.

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So really it's a trajectory that was going to come in seven to 10 years.

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It has already happened in two to three years.

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So imagine being responsible for a business and your product is a certain kind of widget

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and you've done the best you can.

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And in most cases, the relationship return on what you're doing in the congregation is

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far below what you ever thought it would be.

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It's quite distressing.

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So pastors are also at a place where I think they're looking at there's another election

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cycle coming.

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There is huge economic upheaval.

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Some congregations are seeing more giving, but others are seeing a real decline in giving

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because the disposable income is dropping.

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And then of course now we have this disorientation that's happening with the Russian-Russian

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war, the Israel-Imasz war.

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We can only absorb so many conflicts before we really start seeing something hit the markets

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and faith.

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And so just like what anyone might be facing in the business world, pastors are sitting

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here going, okay, we are in the business of talking about, let's just face it, everybody

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says when you're together with the family, you're not supposed to talk about religion

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and politics.

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Pastors that's their bread and butter, not necessarily about political parties, but about

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lived-out belief, which is expressed in a sort of political way.

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I'm going to stop there and just say, I tried to paint a big picture and just simply say,

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you know, that you're going to get a very different answer for each person, but just

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be aware that every minister is kind of feeling these pressures.

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Whether they know it or not, that's a key thing.

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I do know some are just like, oh, it's fine.

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And you know, I just think in the midst of all of that, in the midst of those pressures,

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if you have a congregation, if you have people around you that you have a sense are in your

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corner and that are supporting you, that are appreciating you, that are designating that

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in some way, is it fair to say that your ability to sort of weather those storms increases?

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Your bandwidth to a certain degree increases.

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I mean, if you were to use a military analogy, I mean, if you're trying to go about a battle

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and you're not getting shot by your own people, you have a better chance at one.

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I was blessed to be in a congregation for 14 years where I really felt like I was not

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necessarily a target of people's frustration.

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I think, well, you have to ask them if they...

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But I hear horror stories.

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My wife is part of a group of several thousand pastors' wives on Facebook and all they do

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is share how they can support each other when something terrible has been said.

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Maybe I should say this.

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I think that ministry is unique in the sense that some people wind up.

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You may have a trauma in your life that came from the authority figure that was acted against

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you.

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And just my presence in your life speaking life into you and sometimes saying hard things

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to help you be the better version of who you are.

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I can put my finger in that wound and you can just deck me.

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But I'm not the one that caused that.

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And I find that pastors are often on the front line there.

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They get sheep bites and it's not necessarily the fault of the pastor or the sheep.

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We're dealing in the healing business.

257
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I have to make it clear again too.

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We see all the headlines of spiritual abuse where sheep pastors are stepped out of line.

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We hear about the Catholic priests.

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I'm a Protestant minister but what is said about Catholic priests also sticks to us.

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But the reality, the average person on the ground that's a male, female pastor is really

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just trying to do the right thing and do the good thing and really want to see people

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thrive.

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And when you do that, you're going to get bit.

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It's like a vet.

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They're working with an animal that ruined it.

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The healing business is hard work.

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And Andy, I wonder as maybe you and Julia have had this conversation at some point now

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that you have a wife that's entered into vocational ministry later on in life.

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Just having the conversation of what...

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Because every individual, especially every spiritual leader, they receive affirmation

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differently.

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So, would you be able right now to have a sense of in what area...

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Like how...

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If somewhere to ask you, come to me and say, hey, how can we encourage your wife and the

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work that she's doing?

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Would you have an answer for that?

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Would you have a sense of how to help that along?

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Yeah, I think definitely words of affirmation are going to go a long way.

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Everybody experiences love and affection in different ways.

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I mean, that's why we have the different five different love languages.

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So, I mean, obviously, people are going to...

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Some people are going to get that same thing as if you were trying to woo your wife.

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They're going to be different.

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People are going to experience that in different ways.

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But I think words of affirmation go a long way because it not only is just like, here's

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a gift, but it allows them to see what they appreciate about the pastor.

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So, it's saying, hey, good example would just be like, hey, I'm just going to use Julie

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since she...

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Like, hey, Julie, I really appreciated the way that you've connected with our family,

292
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you looked out for us when XYZ was happening.

293
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And I really appreciated the way that you...

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What you said really spoke to me on Sunday.

295
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And it doesn't have to be during pastor appreciation month.

296
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Yeah.

297
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So, it's a good time to remember that because...

298
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:18,800
Yeah, I mean, I think...

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Well, I've never been in ministry where I'm being paid, but I have been in the help desk

300
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:26,520
industry.

301
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:27,520
Yeah.

302
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,520
And so, the same similar type of things.

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And so, I know from personally, for me, that when you're helping people all day, especially

304
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,800
that people are coming to me when things are wrong.

305
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:44,800
Yeah.

306
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:45,800
And that's a great...

307
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:51,280
I think that's a great insight just to say, usually the beginning of the conversation,

308
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,800
the interaction is because something is sideways.

309
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:54,800
Right.

310
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,720
And I get that that's not always the case in pastoral care, right?

311
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I mean, that's not always the case.

312
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But a lot of that is here.

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Even no matter what type of pastor you are, whether you're the congregational care pastor

314
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:14,600
or either had lead pastor or a kid's pastor or whatever, you're going to have people coming

315
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,200
to you that are needing something.

316
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,200
Yeah.

317
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,680
I mean, because your job is to pastor the flock, right?

318
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:21,680
Right.

319
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:22,680
And so, that's your job.

320
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:23,680
But seldom is seldom...

321
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,560
I mean, to that point, though, like seldom is there a case where like someone's like,

322
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,800
hey, I'd love to sit down and talk with you about everything that's going really well

323
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,320
in our church right now.

324
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,680
Or I'd love to talk with you about just, man, the multiple great things.

325
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,080
I just want to spend some time counting the awesome things that are going on.

326
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:47,240
Now, by the way, if you did choose to do that, I would...

327
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,800
Man, like that's worth its weight in gold.

328
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,200
110%.

329
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,320
I was really, really fortunate.

330
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,720
The last congregation that I served, we had...

331
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:57,800
Man, it was...

332
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:04,120
There were two or three instances where folks in the congregation called the office and

333
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:06,160
said, would it be okay?

334
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,640
I know you guys have your staff meetings on Tuesday mornings.

335
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,640
I think that's...

336
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,160
The Tuesday morning church staff meeting is the...

337
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:13,160
That's the go-to.

338
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,160
That's the go-to, right?

339
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,160
Yeah.

340
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:16,600
I know you guys have your staff meetings on Tuesday mornings.

341
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:25,080
I would just love to come and share how the collective ministry of this church has positively

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00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,200
impacted and changed my life.

343
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,120
Let me just tell you, and I remember those.

344
00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:31,760
I can remember those individuals.

345
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,840
I remember those conversations.

346
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,640
That...

347
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,720
Them coming in on a Tuesday morning set the course for our week as a whole team.

348
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,200
I really felt that.

349
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,560
These would be things that they're sharing that I think would be very easy to dismiss

350
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,480
as like, oh, we're just doing our thing.

351
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We're just doing our jobs and whatever.

352
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,000
But it was huge.

353
00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:04,800
And to have someone create space, carve out space to share that, I just incredibly powerful.

354
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,440
And I think, again, because we don't hear...

355
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:08,440
It's hard to hear affirmation.

356
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:09,680
I mean, Nick and we don't...

357
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:10,680
People don't naturally...

358
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,560
I'm in several different Facebook groups, right?

359
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:15,560
Technology stuff.

360
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,600
And one in particular, I'm thinking people are like...

361
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,240
People are always saying, there's newer versions of the software are terrible.

362
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:22,840
There's newer versions of the software are terrible.

363
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,880
But what you don't hear is the people coming in and saying, these newer versions of the

364
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,960
software work great for me because people are coming for the group for support.

365
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:38,080
And so, as a pastor, it's those type of things that you long and crave for because you want

366
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,560
to hear what you're doing right.

367
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,480
You want to hear when people appreciate what you're doing.

368
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:44,480
Well, for me, not a lot.

369
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,920
We just hope we're making a difference somewhere.

370
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:47,920
Like...

371
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,960
Well, again, I want to remind you that since you're dealing in relationships...

372
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:59,800
There is this sense that if I'm producing RVs here, I can tell you how many units come

373
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,080
off the line with it.

374
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:07,640
But when you're investing in a relationship, you really don't even know this side of heaven.

375
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,920
Like where that relationship is going and what it's going to be like in the end.

376
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,760
So, it's just really hard to get immediate feedback.

377
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:16,760
Let's just face it.

378
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,680
I know that we want to talk about some self-care pieces.

379
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,960
But if I could just at least know that there's a couple of suggestions I could give that

380
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,920
really actually just helpful for appreciation for not just pastors, but really anyone in

381
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:31,920
your life.

382
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,560
I mean, you're now an executive director of a nonprofit, Joel.

383
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,880
Like, I'm now a director in a church network.

384
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,360
It's fascinating because we're still kind of doing ministry, right?

385
00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:47,320
But we're not necessarily on the radar of people now.

386
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:52,960
We're not in the trench having people say, I'm so glad your shoulder to shoulder with

387
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:53,960
me.

388
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:54,960
We're kind of top level.

389
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,520
So, I would just simply say it's really helpful to just think about the word of encouragement.

390
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,160
You're talking about love languages, right?

391
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,160
Or other ways of hearing it.

392
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:10,400
I have letters that I've kept for years that just so great to have just this tickle file

393
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:16,080
of places to go back and hear that somebody actually said something great to me.

394
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:17,400
Just of what you do for work.

395
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:23,920
If somebody shows healthy, appropriate love to your children, sometimes they can't say

396
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,420
that to your face.

397
00:23:25,420 --> 00:23:29,480
But I had people who treated me really difficultly at times in church.

398
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:35,600
But the way they expressed their care for my children or gifted things to them, which

399
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,280
is just really special.

400
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:44,680
When people remembered them as well, that's a powerful experience.

401
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:52,480
Another piece would simply be like thinking about it, like giving sort of like experiential

402
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:59,200
things rather than material items, you know, taking them out to a meal.

403
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:06,280
It's astounding how many pastors don't get invited to go out just a regular meal where

404
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,800
we're not talking about church.

405
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,200
Everybody just assumes that pastors are so busy they can't do it.

406
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:17,480
What the reality is, is many of them are starving for this regular relationship where there

407
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,200
is no agenda and you're just going in your break and bread together having a nice meal.

408
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,160
And again, these are appropriate things for really any professor.

409
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,160
Right.

410
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:34,760
Well, and I think to one of the things that's hard about that I've seen, that's hard about

411
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:40,600
being in church ministry is for me and Joel, right?

412
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,560
We go to work Monday through Friday.

413
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:48,280
Sometimes we work in the evening, but we have this time of separation where on Sunday we

414
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:49,520
are going to church to worship.

415
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:50,520
Yeah.

416
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,520
I mean, granted, I'm not saying this is the only time.

417
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:53,520
Yeah.

418
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:54,520
Right.

419
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:55,520
Being a Christian is a whole life thing.

420
00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:04,280
But there's this separation of work versus being worshipping, whereas for pastors that's

421
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:09,120
not necessarily the case because they're working still Sunday morning.

422
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:10,120
Yeah.

423
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:11,120
No matter what, it's a 24.

424
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:16,560
I mean, it is a 24-7 job in one way or the other, just in terms of when you might be

425
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,480
called upon, whatever might happen.

426
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:27,520
And a pastor never really sets that work aside.

427
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,040
It's incredibly difficult, too.

428
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,640
They teach you more and more to have healthy boundaries where maybe you should have clear

429
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,360
times when someone shouldn't call you.

430
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:42,200
But I think you should try to do that as a pastor, but the reality is death is never

431
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,200
convenient.

432
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,200
Yeah.

433
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,200
Right.

434
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,680
Death never happens when a crisis never happens on your schedule.

435
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:49,680
Yeah.

436
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,920
I cannot tell you how many thanksgivings I've missed in 14 years of ministry.

437
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,240
It just spelt like, in my context, so many people died on thanksgivings.

438
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:00,240
Yeah.

439
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,520
And I don't mean that as humorsing or anything.

440
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:03,520
Yeah.

441
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:04,520
It's just don't know what's happening.

442
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,520
Right.

443
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:06,520
Yeah.

444
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:07,520
The other thing is we work when people play.

445
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,600
I mean, the reality is most church events are when the average person is free.

446
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,320
So it's not unlike, I worked for Toledo Symphony for some time.

447
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,800
We would work on nine to five jobs, but then we'd have two to three concerts in a week

448
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,000
during the regular season.

449
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,000
It's not unlike some of those professions where you do your administrative work, but then

450
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,600
you're on when everyone else is off.

451
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,520
So it does take some work.

452
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,480
I think that's the piece that maybe if you want to talk a little bit about self care,

453
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:37,480
that's a great transition.

454
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:38,480
Yeah.

455
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:46,360
Well, and we want to, as we're talking about appreciation, as we're talking about, because

456
00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:52,520
there's a piece of, we've talked about some parts here of practical things that any like

457
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,240
a congregational member can do, just very straightforward practical pieces of how they

458
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,720
can express appreciation.

459
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:07,680
What I'd also want to do, because my, you know, once a pastor, always a pastor, is if

460
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:15,000
I could give a seminar to church elders and deacons and anyone who's overseeing or supervising

461
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:21,120
or has an impact upon the work life of a pastor, there's a whole additional category

462
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:27,160
of like practically speaking how they can show appreciation for the pastor.

463
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,400
So we'll just, we'll say that first.

464
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:36,080
And I want to give, I want to give some context to one, why lay church leadership needs to

465
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,440
do this, because, because there's a new reality.

466
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,240
We've talked post COVID, there is a new reality about pastoral health that, that we're seeing.

467
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:50,240
So I took some, the Christian, the Christian post in a June of this year, they did, they

468
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,120
did an article, a lot of this came from a bar in a group with research they had been

469
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:55,120
doing with pastors.

470
00:27:55,120 --> 00:28:02,240
They did a bunch of initial surveys and interviews in 2015 and then came back to that group seven

471
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,240
years later.

472
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,400
So over course, the time of 2015 to 2022.

473
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:13,680
And by 2022 pastors had, you know, there are full two years into, and this was in the 2022

474
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,280
they did it like towards the end of the year, if I remember, yeah, it was in September of

475
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,120
2022.

476
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:26,440
So just about a year ago, they completed this and really got an interesting snapshot of

477
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:31,280
what, of what's going on kind of, and this is within a Protestant, Protestant pastor

478
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:38,240
specifically just to, to be clear, but so here's what they, here's what they found.

479
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,880
In key measures of wellbeing, such as physical, mental, emotional and overall health pastors

480
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:49,480
have suffered significant declines over the last seven years, especially when it comes

481
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:56,120
to having true friends, which as Tyler has touched on, a new report from Barnard research

482
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,720
shows citing data collected again in this, they did this study was known as the resilient

483
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,520
pastor research from 2015 to 2022.

484
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,400
The evangelical polling organization showed that pastors suffered significant declines

485
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:14,920
in all areas of wellbeing when asked to rank how they felt as excellent, good average,

486
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,320
blow average, poor or don't know.

487
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:22,440
So in 2015 data was collected between April and December of that year and based on 900

488
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,680
interviews that they did with Protestant seat, and these are senior pastors specifically.

489
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:35,080
So I'm just here to tell you definitely challenges specific to senior pastors, but that doesn't,

490
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,400
it does not end.

491
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,560
The challenges do not end at the senior pastoral level for sure.

492
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,120
You know, and I'm saying that as someone who's doing, was doing youth ministry in 2020 during

493
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,080
all of it like had very, very similar experiences.

494
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:51,200
So they do these surveys.

495
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:57,680
So it says when it comes to having true friends, the data shows that 20% of pastors in 2022

496
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:04,140
ranked themselves as below average in the area compared with 10% who did so in 2015.

497
00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:08,880
Another 7% ranked themselves as poor when it comes to having friends in 2022 compared

498
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,480
to just 2% in 2015.

499
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,360
While 34% of pastors ranked themselves as excellent when it comes to having true friends

500
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:29,160
in 2015, that share dropped to 17% in 2022 from 34 to 17% in 2022.

501
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,120
Many pastors also indicated that their physical health suffered significantly between 2015

502
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,720
and 2022.

503
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:44,520
In 2015, only 7% of pastors ranked their physical well-being as either below average or poor.

504
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:50,680
Seven years later, that number has more than tripled to 22%.

505
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:56,040
With some 18% reporting their condition as below average, only 9% of pastors reported

506
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:04,200
their physical health as excellent in 2022 compared to 24% seven years earlier.

507
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:13,400
And then again, the study goes on and talks about mental health.

508
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:21,920
The mental and emotional health in 2015, 39% of pastors surveyed said their mental and

509
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:27,960
emotional health was excellent by 2022 was down to 11%.

510
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,720
So we're seeing physical health.

511
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:36,480
We're seeing lack of friendships, meaningful friendships.

512
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:46,360
We're seeing a general overall decline in these groups, some significant numbers.

513
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:52,840
And I don't know how where the average lay leader is about this.

514
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,320
I feel it's like I want to advocate for it.

515
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,320
I want to make it known.

516
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:02,120
But I don't just want to drop kind of a frozen turd, so to speak.

517
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:08,520
Like, what do I do with this now?

518
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:09,720
I think what it circles back to.

519
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,360
I'd love to hear you guys' input on this.

520
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,680
I think number one, you all can do the difficult work.

521
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,200
It can be difficult working, can be tricky to navigate of being a friend to your pastor.

522
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,840
I have had pastors tell me your congregation members and your lay leaders don't want to

523
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:27,840
be your friend.

524
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,320
And there's a big discussion out there actually as whether or not pastors can have friends

525
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,320
within their congregation.

526
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,240
Call me naive.

527
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,160
I still want to believe it's possible.

528
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,320
I guess how does that work for you?

529
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,280
Again, I'm coming from the fact that I've never been a pastor, so I can't really speak

530
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,040
to that per se.

531
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,480
But for you, how does that work?

532
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:57,440
Because do you find that you need to necessarily guard yourself?

533
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:58,960
That's the question.

534
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:05,400
And in that case, then how do you become a true friend to serve a said person?

535
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,880
But at the same time, why can't you?

536
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:08,880
Right.

537
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,240
So there's a few dynamics without getting too deep into the weeds.

538
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,600
I would say number one, everybody wants to be your friend until you have a hard thing

539
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:19,600
to say to them.

540
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:20,600
Sure.

541
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:21,600
Right.

542
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,600
Tell it like it is, pastor.

543
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:23,600
Come on.

544
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:24,600
Tell it like it is.

545
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,400
They're like, oh, we're too close to home.

546
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,360
So that can turn things.

547
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:40,840
The other thing is it's like I have seen the absolute best of humanity in a pastoral role

548
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,560
and I have seen the absolute worst.

549
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:55,880
I mean things that are so dark and are so ugly that were perpetrated or endorsed or whatever

550
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,160
by quote unquote normal congregational members.

551
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,480
If someone asks me in the congregation, how are you doing?

552
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:04,480
Like what's up?

553
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,400
It's like, first of all, there's things that I just flat out can't share just like any

554
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,320
counselor or anybody, whatever.

555
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,160
And there's always a little bit of that dynamic of that person who is trying to get to know

556
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,960
me knowing that there are things that I can't disclose.

557
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,240
That's always between us to a certain degree.

558
00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:20,680
That can be a challenge.

559
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,920
So that person is okay with that and comfortable with that.

560
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:24,920
Great.

561
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:30,080
But if they're uncomfortable with their being that like X factor of unknown, because it,

562
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:37,200
I mean like Andy with you and I shoot with any of us guys here, the hope would be that

563
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:44,080
we would be continually working in our relationships to be more and more transparent to the, to

564
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:49,680
even to the levels of like uncomfortability and pain for the well-being of each other.

565
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:50,680
Right?

566
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:51,880
Like that would be the sense.

567
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:57,600
It's very hard to go to that place with congregation members.

568
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,400
That is a challenge.

569
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:08,040
The other thing I would say is sometimes when you do share the things that are bugging you,

570
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:09,920
people don't know how to handle it.

571
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,640
They don't, you know, it's like, dog on it.

572
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,360
I put my pants on one leg at a time just like everybody else.

573
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:23,760
I got, you know, gosh, last year, last year around this time a little bit earlier, actually

574
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,280
into the summer, like there was, there was, you know, there was a thing with, with one

575
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,840
of my kiddos that was really bothering me and it was good.

576
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:37,120
It was getting to was affecting, it was affecting a lot of things in my life.

577
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,720
And I'll be honest with you.

578
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:46,920
When people asked me how that was going, I don't know if they, like, I don't, I don't

579
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,200
know if they knew how to receive that.

580
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:53,920
I don't know if, because I was like trying to be honest, you know, what the, what the

581
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,560
thing was that was in my life that was the most, it was the most challenging.

582
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:06,800
And so it's kind of like, you know, there's, yeah, there are some, you know, there's,

583
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,560
there are some, there are some landmines there at the same time.

584
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,120
I want to believe that I can be, I can have meaningful friendships with the people in

585
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,880
my, in my congregation.

586
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:21,280
So, so how, how as people in your congregation, how can they support you do this?

587
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,640
I mean, we've talked about, we've talked about cards and words of encouragement and

588
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:25,880
even, even gifts.

589
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:26,880
Yeah.

590
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,920
Like what's that look like for, for the two of you, you know, even, even now Tyler, you're

591
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,200
not necessarily in, in day to day pastoral ministry, but you're still in it.

592
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,200
Yeah.

593
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,200
Right.

594
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,320
So what's, what do those things look like for you?

595
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,480
So here's what I think.

596
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:48,280
So I'll say this and then, and then I definitely want to hear what Tyler would say, but, um,

597
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,360
okay.

598
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:55,920
The way you can show appreciation to your senior pastor at a bigger congregation level.

599
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:02,680
So by the way, this is like, if you are someone that's part of a church and just even as a

600
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,880
voting church member, this is an awareness you can have.

601
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,800
If you're a deacon or an elder, you have some sort of, some sort of role.

602
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,960
This is what I would, I would say you need to lovingly the way you, you can appreciate

603
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:22,760
your pastor is to lovingly mandate certain rhythms of self care into their life.

604
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:23,760
Um,

605
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,960
So you're saying advocate for them.

606
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:26,960
Yeah.

607
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:32,240
Like, like as, as, as just church members, you advocate for them to the, to the board

608
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:35,920
and then stay at your hand at the, at the church meeting and go, Hey, when does pastor

609
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,600
so-and-so get their, when, when, when, when is there sabbatical happening?

610
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,960
Um, what are we, what are we doing?

611
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:42,960
What are we doing about that?

612
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,160
Um, have we budgeted, have we budgeted that?

613
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,840
You know, if you're on the finance, are we budgeting for sabbatical?

614
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,880
Are we budgeting for someone to do pulp, pulp it supply or whatever is needed while

615
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:52,880
they're gone?

616
00:37:52,880 --> 00:38:01,640
Um, are, uh, so, so those be a hand, you can be a hand razor and razor hand and ask those,

617
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:02,640
ask those questions.

618
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:08,080
Um, as an advocate for, for your, for your pastor, that's, that's, and that's one way

619
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,040
to show appreciation.

620
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:15,840
The other thing I would say is if you're on a board where you are, you setting the expectations

621
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,440
for what, what, how the pastor dedicates their time or whatever.

622
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,800
Uh, yes, mandate sabbaticals.

623
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,240
Um, there's a lot of discussion around how frequently that should be done.

624
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:32,720
I, the net, the network with which I, I'm, I still hold my ordination, but as I was

625
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:36,520
serving in, it's every, you know, a lot of, it's every fourth year they look at, they

626
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:37,520
look at doing a sabbatical.

627
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,400
I don't know if that's changed much Tyler.

628
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,160
It's usually between four to seven years, but if it's seven years, it's three months.

629
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:44,160
Yeah.

630
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,880
Um, you know, but it's like they're, they're really serious.

631
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:48,880
They're really serious.

632
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,160
The network is really serious about that.

633
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,080
And there, there's, I know there's been some pretty intentional conversations around it.

634
00:38:54,080 --> 00:39:01,480
The other thing is, uh, and I did this executive pastor, uh, you need to have a circle of, of

635
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,920
people that are praying for you outside of your immediate ministry context.

636
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,840
And I, I, as an executive pastor, I mandated that for my staff.

637
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,360
I said, you need to have three to five people that do not have a dog in the hunt in this

638
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,480
local congregate and this local congregation.

639
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,560
So this is a little bit out, this is a little bit outside of local congregation, but, um,

640
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:26,120
who you can, you can share your prayer needs with and they, and they will, and they will

641
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,120
do that.

642
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:34,280
Well, and I think that that's probably a better thing to have on the out, like outside of

643
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:35,280
your local church.

644
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,080
Cause again, like, yes, you can, you can be friends with the people in your church, but

645
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,440
like you said earlier, Joel, like you have this confidentiality that you can't necessarily,

646
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,760
and again, not saying, well, if it's like, Hey, I'm pissed off at my senior pastor right

647
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,840
now and I need you to pray for me.

648
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,360
It's like, maybe shit.

649
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:53,360
Yeah.

650
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,760
Um, no, but I mean, as if you have your prayer circle, your prayer shield outside of your

651
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,160
local congregation, then you, you can not necessarily giving details of it.

652
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,240
Cause you still want to be confidential to who you're talking about, but you can open

653
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:10,400
up a little bit more and say what you're struggling with and how people compare in particular.

654
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:17,120
So if you're an elder and you're responsible for assigning, you know, assigning job description,

655
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,000
whatever to your, your senior pastor, your youth pastor, whatever it is as an elder,

656
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,560
what I would say is, Hey, a part of your job, part of your job requirement is having a group

657
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,840
of people outside of this congregation that are actively praying for you that you're,

658
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,240
that you're sharing with regularly.

659
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:33,040
And like we're going to require that.

660
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,560
So there, there's that, uh, there's the sabbatical thing.

661
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,560
And then I would say a regular rhythm of a day of like a silence and solitude, like on

662
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,520
a monthly basis kind of thing.

663
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,600
Some pastors that get, and again, as I'm saying this, I know that someone is hearing

664
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,440
going, you don't live my ministry life.

665
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,760
Where's the time to, you know, to do these sort of things where I can't afford it.

666
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:55,760
Here's the deal.

667
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,760
I want, please hear me in all love and respect.

668
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,440
You cannot afford not to do these things.

669
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:07,920
The studies, the studies are in what I just read here is the result of unhealthy rhythms

670
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:14,060
and that have just been, you know, um, have just been, the volume has just been turned

671
00:41:14,060 --> 00:41:17,400
up on them over the last few years and we're looking at it.

672
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:24,520
So, uh, the way you can appreciate your pastor is to sort of impose upon them healthy opportunities

673
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,640
for healthy rhythms, whether or not they follow through on it, that's going to be on them.

674
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,760
But communicating to them, this is a value for us.

675
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,840
We want to appreciate you in the, in these ways.

676
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,840
Uh, and we want to give you space and we want to give you an expectation.

677
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:44,640
Well, and I think another good way to do that is to mandate and mandate and provide finances

678
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,040
for counseling.

679
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:47,040
Yeah.

680
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,720
Because I think a lot of times pastors in general aren't necessarily going to do that

681
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:55,760
if they're not, I don't want to say forced to, but they're taking a lot on their shoulders

682
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:57,200
and need to be able to get that off.

683
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:02,280
And so they're with counseling that's in their relationship where they can have a confidentiality,

684
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:07,040
but it'd be able to work out some of the things that are going on in their lives.

685
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,400
Like, yeah, I think that would be a good thing.

686
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:16,040
You could do a preemptive as well of, of not counseling, but rather spiritual direction

687
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,040
so that you're heading it off at the past before it.

688
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,400
There's counseling needed.

689
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:26,360
I know my church provided for me to meet with a spiritual director every month for,

690
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:32,000
I mean, nine to 10 years and that made a really big difference in being able to pivot and

691
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,440
spend some really difficult time.

692
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,520
Can you explain for our listeners what the difference between counseling and spiritual

693
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:38,920
direction would be?

694
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,360
In a nutshell, counseling is kind of like, what's the joke?

695
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,880
God was the first counselor.

696
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:50,400
He said, where are you and what have you done to Adam?

697
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,720
I give credit to a federal computer for that one.

698
00:42:53,720 --> 00:43:02,520
But a counselor is kind of digging at kind of like places that need like real healing.

699
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:09,880
A spiritual director is helping you kind of look at where God is working in your life,

700
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:14,520
helping you discern what next steps might look like.

701
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,840
I used to say with my spiritual director that my theme was chasing God's glory.

702
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:25,640
And so my spiritual director was constantly helping me open my eyes, seeing how God is

703
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,760
at work, even in difficult situations.

704
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,600
He was not there to counsel me.

705
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:41,840
He was there to ask questions that opened and unveiled and directed.

706
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,280
He's like a listening partner, helping you hear.

707
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:46,280
Yeah, kind of thing.

708
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:47,280
That's the same line.

709
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,240
It really is because a spiritual director can lead you into an area where you definitely

710
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:55,640
need, you discover that you really do need some counseling.

711
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,800
A couple of things I would just note.

712
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:04,200
One would be that in an environment where an open position used to generate 20, 30 or

713
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:10,200
more applications, we're now seeing one, two, or three applications.

714
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:16,720
So there just simply aren't a lot of people going into ministry for various reasons, the

715
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:18,840
time and the pay.

716
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:27,160
I mean, it's not a high paying job for many people and it's a lot of work and it costs

717
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,600
you, it costs your family.

718
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:36,800
And so right off the bat, we're giving advice for pastors and for congregation.

719
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:45,080
Just know that pastors are in high demand and congregations need to be careful to not

720
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:49,720
assume that there's just someone else going to come in and pick up the ball if this pastor

721
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:52,120
burns out and leaves.

722
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:59,400
It's really putting the weight on congregation to take care of the people that they have.

723
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,600
And for pastors to take care of themselves.

724
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,680
So I just wanted to note that's a key point.

725
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:15,840
As far as like hair, I think that if you're a pastor and you're listening to me, I was

726
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:16,840
guilty of it.

727
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,280
We all have blind spots where we just kind of think that we're functioning really well

728
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:22,280
but we're not.

729
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:28,040
We're functioning out of tiredness or the last dregs at the bottom of the barrel.

730
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:35,080
And it's helpful to remember what my mentor told me, 83-year-old Dan Slavaugh.

731
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,600
He said, listen, the Holy Spirit was at work before you showed up.

732
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,800
You're going to keep working when you die or when you leave.

733
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,200
Don't think you're the Holy Spirit.

734
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:52,600
It's kind of in line with Joel saying that you can't not afford to take that time off

735
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,280
or to reorient.

736
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,920
If you're pouring into other people, you must take breaks.

737
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:06,960
My congregation gave me a weekend away every quarter and you have to learn to step out

738
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:13,040
of it because it will be removed from you if you don't learn to step out of it.

739
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:17,120
When we're seeing that roll out all around, a dear friend just had that happen a couple

740
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:23,160
weeks ago, burned out, tired, said things that they never intended to say in meetings

741
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:27,280
and wound up having to step out.

742
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,360
Everything is fine until it's not.

743
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:35,480
And that's how it goes.

744
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:41,720
I just, yeah, I think for anybody listening, wherever you are, if, again, congregation

745
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:54,360
member, church leader, pastor, whomever, there's all this work that all of us can do together

746
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,040
that is just, there's good preventative work that can be done.

747
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:05,960
There's agreements that we can come to where we say, hey, all of us together are going

748
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:10,480
to promote the longevity and the health of the ministry that we're engaging in.

749
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:17,600
And that means appreciating each other in very practical, specific ways.

750
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,680
Having built in rhythms in which we do that, there's a month dedicated to it, but man-o-man,

751
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,760
a card of appreciation.

752
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:30,320
When I served here at Clinton Frame, there are a few individuals here.

753
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,560
Their ministry is card writing.

754
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,440
Tyler, I have the same deal.

755
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:35,440
I have those saved.

756
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,000
There's a box that I keep them in.

757
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,240
I just opened them up.

758
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:39,920
Oh, gosh, it was last month.

759
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:45,080
I was like, there's this whole, I've got this whole crate of cards, even it was my last

760
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,600
sermon that I preached here a few years ago.

761
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,000
Just cards upon cards.

762
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,080
Oh, man, really, really powerful, meaningful stuff.

763
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,360
So there's the practical things.

764
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,400
There's also the structural, you know, what do you want to call it, job description sort

765
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:08,240
of things, things like that that we can do to show that we appreciate the pastoral role

766
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:15,400
in our churches and that we understand that while this person has a unique gifting and

767
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:22,000
a unique call, they are human just like the rest of us and that they have needs just like

768
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,000
the rest of us.

769
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,720
So, you know, friends, I hope that's what you hear.

770
00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:30,320
I hope that's what you've encountered.

771
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:36,800
If maybe you're in a situation where that is not the reality right now, then the effect

772
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:37,800
change.

773
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:38,800
Raise your hand.

774
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:39,800
Ask some questions.

775
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,400
Ask how pastors are really doing.

776
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,480
Do what you can do to make a positive impact in that area.

777
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,480
Yeah, kind of in closing, I know you're beginning to wrap up.

778
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:55,440
I'd just like to know, make this offer that if someone's listening to this that's in ministry

779
00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:00,160
or someone is a ministry leader working with a pastor and they'd like to talk to somebody

780
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:06,400
outside of their context, feel free to reach out to dad and they can pass that information

781
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:07,400
to me.

782
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,600
I have met with a number of pastors outside of my context and I'd love to make those

783
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,800
connections and walk with them or leaders.

784
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,040
I just want to give one last little pointer.

785
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:20,440
Evaluation.

786
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,240
Just consider that if you're working with your pastor and you want to make it a great

787
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:31,280
experience, consider using something like an appreciative inquiry method.

788
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,280
Ask what's going well.

789
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:33,280
What are the strengths?

790
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,960
What are the places that you dream about for this ministry?

791
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:38,960
Where are your challenges?

792
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:44,400
Well, I tell you, it's a lonely place when you're the only pastor and suddenly it's

793
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:50,480
review time and all the questions are about ways that maybe you're not picking up the

794
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,920
ball, especially if they do a survey of the whole congregation.

795
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:59,160
It's just basically inviting a shooting gallery.

796
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:05,840
Just consider even just the way your structure is set up to work with something like an appreciative

797
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,840
inquiry process.

798
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:09,840
It's just a game changer.

799
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,840
It really is for the congregation and the leader.

800
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:13,840
Thanks for having me on.

801
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:14,840
Yeah, thanks for joining us.

802
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:15,840
It always flies.

803
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:16,840
It's always great.

804
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:22,280
And so glad that each and every one of you were able to join us this time around.

805
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,480
As always, you can head over to dudesandadspodcast.com.

806
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,480
Well the show notes there, again, will connect you with Tyler.

807
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,560
We're always available to have a conversation.

808
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:33,560
Always love that.

809
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:39,800
So, dudes and dads podcast at gmail.com for all your emails five seven four two one three

810
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,320
eighty seven zero two for your voice mail.

811
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:43,320
We love those voice mails.

812
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:44,320
We don't get them enough.

813
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,200
We need more more voice mails.

814
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:47,200
More voice mails.

815
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,200
Let this be voice mail.

816
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:49,960
Let's let this be the voicemail month.

817
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:50,960
Let's do it.

818
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,280
The month of voicemail month of voicemails.

819
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:53,280
Okay.

820
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,080
Well, hey friends, thanks for joining us and until next time we wish you grace and peace.

821
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:58,080
Bye.

822
00:50:58,080 --> 00:50:58,080
Bye.

823
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:16,600
Bye.

824
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,660
you