The thing that we're missing
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is that from the very beginning,
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penal substitutionary atonement, is
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part of the whole Christus Victor,
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if we're going to use one
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overarching term, Christus Victor works.
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It is the victory of Christ over
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the devil and over evil and over the,
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all those sorts of thing, Christus
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Victor shouts from the early church.
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But in that, how that is accomplished is through
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the death of Jesus Christ for our sins.
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Well, Dean, it is great to
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have you back on the podcast.
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It's been a number of years.
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It's been too long.
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Yes.
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So just by way of introduction, let's see, you're
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on the ministry team at your church.
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You're president of the Zollikon Institute and
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you've been studying church history,
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the early church, theology, Anabaptism, all of
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these things for a very long time.
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We did an episode on your
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story, oh my, years ago now,
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which people can watch that if they
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want to know more of your journey.
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But today we're going to talk about something
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that we have not talked
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about on this podcast before.
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We've been waiting on this one because I know
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it's controversial with some people
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and we want to talk about the atonement.
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So if I understand correctly, you believe in
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penal substitutionary atonement.
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And we're going to just jump straight into this
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and see where we get to.
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So I think the first thing to do for, I'm sure
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there's lots listening there,
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like I don't really know what that means.
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So can you define what you mean?
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Could we, I do have, I have some slides here, a
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lot of slides I prepared.
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I do have some very specific definitions.
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So as we go through, I do have that.
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So I do think that's important because it is a,
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what does that even mean, kind of thing.
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Exactly.
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So I think we, I mean, any Christian is going to
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say, oh yeah, the
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atonement, I mean, like this is,
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we all get that, but we're talking about
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different, I guess you can call
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theories of the atonement and things.
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So why don't we start with definitions and just
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kind of lay the groundwork for us.
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And could we, you know, this topic, we're talking
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about something very precious.
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And one of the things I think that you can't just
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have discussions about the blood of Jesus Christ,
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you know, in just a flippant, even academic way.
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Let's start with prayer on it, if you don't mind,
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and just ask God to just be with us through this.
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It's a very textual dense, I
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have a slide on here, geek warning.
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I don't know, I don't like to have such
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theologically dense conversations all the time.
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And, you know, the core of me is wanting to
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represent Jesus Christ and to
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put his teachings into practice.
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You hear me all the time
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saying, let's keep it simple.
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This is a very theologically dense subject.
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I have studied it for over 30
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years, and so it's very dear to me.
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And we're going to be looking at
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this as historical theologians,
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-and we can talk about that-
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versus a systematic theologian.
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But they all said, wow, we're
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talking about the blood of Jesus Christ.
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So let's just pray for just a moment.
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Dear God, I just ask you as we discuss this
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subject of the blood of Jesus Christ,
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your blood and how you save us, that you would
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help us and be with us, Lord.
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Let only you be represented and not my thinking
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or carnal man or systems of
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men or anything like that,
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God, but I just pray, Lord, let
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your way and your truth prevail.
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Your promise that when your word is brought
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forth, it will accomplish what it was sent for.
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So God, I pray that you'd be
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over this entire long conversation
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and that you would be
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somehow glorified through it all.
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In Jesus' name. Amen.
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I guess the first definition is, I think the
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scripture that brings it
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in the most simplistic way
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is 1 Corinthians 15 verse 1.
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It's a general one on atonement, and then I'll
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give the penal substitutionary.
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It says, "Moreover brethren, I declare to you
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And that is atonement.
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Now, all atonement models would ascribe to that.
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The other thing I want to say
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from the very beginning here is,
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I am not arguing for an exclusive penal
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substitutionary view of the atonement.
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The thing I'm trying to accomplish today is that
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the argument that penal substitutionary atonement
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is not part of early Christianity and that didn't
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exist until in the Middle Ages or something is
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not true.
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It's, I even would say, it's ridiculous.
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But I am not at all, don't hear me saying that I
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don't believe that the Christus Victor
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metaphors are important.
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Matter of fact, if we were having another
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discussion on why "we have to get rid of Christus
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Victor language", I would be just as upset.
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But the tendency in my crowd, the kingdom crowd
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in the Anabaptist world,
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I believe has swung the pendulum in a way that is
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simply not representing the patristic sources
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properly.
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So just to clarify, patristic sources, we're
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saying the early church writings.
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The early church, right.
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And we're talking the first couple hundred years
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after the time of Christ?
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Definitely the first hundred years.
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But even into, I'm going to have quite a lot from
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Origen and Chrysostom and Eusebius
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where they actually take the subject more.
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But it's not being represented.
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The thing that we're missing is that from the
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very beginning, penal substitutionary atonement
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is part of the whole Christus Victor.
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If we're going to use one
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overarching term, Christus Victor works.
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It is the victory of Christ over
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the devil and over evil and over the,
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you know, all those sorts of things.
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Christus Victor shouts from the early church.
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But in that, how that is accomplished is through
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the death of Jesus Christ for our sins.
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And that part is missing as
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the pendulum has now swung.
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And I think you miss something deeply.
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And it affects the piety.
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I think it affects the way you look at salvation.
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It affects your relationship to Jesus Christ.
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And I pastorally, I feel that it's important.
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And the only reason why I dig so deeply into this
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is because I do think the repercussions
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of people who have swung the
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other way, it comes out not so pretty.
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So just so people are like, because we're
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getting, we'll end up getting
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pretty deep into some things
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here. And a lot of people are
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going to be like, why does it matter?
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And you're saying, well, how we think about this,
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there's lots of different
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theories on the atonement, right? Of like, well,
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how exactly does this thing work?
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Right. And you're saying the way
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we think about it really matters.
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It can affect how we live. It can affect.
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It does. There's somehow, and it's subtle.
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It's not like, again, the
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arguments are good with Christus Victor.
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I'm a Christus Victor man. And I want to keep,
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I'll keep saying that through this whole message.
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But when you lose this idea of Christ dying for
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our sins, taking the curse upon the cross,
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the penalty of our sins being upon Him and the
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salvation, the imputed righteousness that comes
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from Him to us, that brings out such a worshipful
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adoration of Jesus Christ
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that I think is missing.
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And I have seen within some kingdom circles,
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which are my circles, almost a mocking of these
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themes. I've heard of a church that when John D.
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Martin's new hymnal came out and they had the,
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you know, the hymnal and the ones that had
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talking about the blood of Jesus or, you know,
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some of the more Protestant so-called themes in
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there, that this church ripped the pages
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from the hymnal. A friend of mine were
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witnessing. Yeah. And I'm like, okay.
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So like people take this stuff really seriously.
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I take it real seriously. And the thought is,
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okay, this is the blame. Protestantism is a mess.
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The reason is they have a poor view of grace and
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they got to realize they need these things.
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And where's the problem? Well, the problem is in
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their view of the atonement. And that's
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kind of the narrative and I
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get it. I wish it was so simple.
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So you're saying for one thing that there's more
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nuance involved with this, but also
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there is value to these models, you're saying.
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And also, okay, let's back up a bit. So let's
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go back to definitions. So can we start with
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what, you know, penal substitutionary atonement is?
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And also you mentioned Christus Victor. So let's
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define that and so forth. Great. Let's give a
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definition of both. This is a definition by
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Jarvis Williams and he says
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it this way. I thought it's,
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let's get something that's classic, penal
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substitutionary definition.
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Okay. Classic. I used a
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Protestant, you know, definition there. So now
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let's go to Jay Denny
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Weaver's book on the non-violent
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atonement and his view and his interpretation or
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his definition of Christus Victor. So this is
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Christus Victor. Okay. So now this is Christus
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Victor.
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And that's in the non-violent
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atonement page 15 from Denny Weaver. Yeah.
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So he also, he mentions another one there,
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the ransom theory, I believe,
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what it would be called. Right. Do we have more
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on that that we might want to mention?
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So it's a good, it's a good question. Um, and
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they do get fuzzy and I think it's because of
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Aulén , um, reason that they do get fuzzy. He's
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quoting, he's even using Aulén's, um,
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concept of calling this classic Aulén who's this,
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um, okay. Or, or did I just uncover a whole
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other thing? Well, you did, but okay. Okay. So
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let me say this. Okay. So with Weaver,
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Denny Weaver, for the most part, I don't agree to
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this stuff with the Patristics and everything,
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but the idea of the victory over evil, the, um,
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the, the defeat of Satan and all that, um, I
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agree now, um, that all of our redemption can be
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reduced to a human sacrifice to the devil.
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I disagree with. Um, but the idea of Christus
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Victor, being in, in victory over those
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things, I do, I agree with. Uh, and I think
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it's incredibly important. So where does this,
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where did, uh, where, in my opinion, where does
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the Christus, where does the Christus Victor, uh,
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pendulum start to swing? There is a, uh, a book
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that was done in the 1940s and 1950s by Gustaf
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Aulén. And, uh, he was a Swedish theologian. Let
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me get my slides on this. Uh, born in 1879,
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1977, Bishop of the Church of Sweden
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and a Lutheran theologian.
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and he in 1930 did some
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discussions on the atonement and he is a
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systematic theologian by training.
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But then when he was doing this in England, a
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monk by the name of Arthur Hebert,
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heard it and was like, whoa. And he
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Arthur Hebert is a liturgical scholar.
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And so he took this and published it and it went
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viral. And in this they present this view.
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And I'm like, I don't, just to save time, I
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didn't go into a lot of the details in my paper,
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Kingdom Reductionism, which we'll give credit to.
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Um, I, I give all the quotes, but in a very,
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um, uh, apologetic, if you know what I'm in the
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term way, he, he gives us the idea of, um,
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uh, the, the Christus Victor that was sort of
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forgotten about for a while and said,
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it's not about this angry God against, against
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this poor child. It's, it's about defeat over
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Satan. And during an era that you're talking
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about the buildup to World War II and all this
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kind of a thing, it was very received. Um, C.S.
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Lewis loved it, loved the book, loved the thing.
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And this book revolutionized historical theology,
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uh, and systematic theology and,
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and the academic circles to this day. Um, I would
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say that only now with, with the new, um,
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easy access to, um, patristic writings, are we
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now starting to see a scholarly pushback to
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Aulén's, um, suggestions. Interesting. Um, now he
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used to be able, when you talk about Origen or
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for Chrysostom or something, I mean, you literally
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had to go into some seminary and dig that up and
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know Latin and all, you know, whatever. Nowadays
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we are living in an amazing era of historical
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theology. Yeah. I mean, the, the explosion of
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available, um, patristic material, like early
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church writings, uh, in the last even 20 years is
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unreal is unreal. And so, which is great because
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now it is easy for anybody to go buy those books
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or look them up on the internet. Yeah. We were in
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the era of historical, when I was first studying
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with David Bercot 30 years
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ago, 35 years ago, maybe,
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um, you know, I remember he would talk on things.
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And living in Tyler, I would go in my car two
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hours to the seminary in Dallas, you know, find
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the Ante-Nicene fathers and, you know,
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look it up, pay 25 cents or 10 cents or
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whatever for, you know,
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copying. And I would look at it and
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drive back home and, you know, and then finally
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got my own set and then started reading it. And,
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and now- but that's just- you have it on
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your watch for crying out loud, you have a smart
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watch with the edit, you know, and so much more.
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There is something to keep in mind too. Like
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there has been a lot added to what's available in
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the early church writings beyond just that
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ante-Nicene set. Like there's new things that have
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been discovered, translated, et cetera, which
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maybe we're getting down the patristic road a
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little too far, but I think these, this is an
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important context, I think for people. Um,
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because what you're saying
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is this fellow was writing,
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you know, in the 1940s, 50s. Um, so that,
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okay, but that's an important data point of like,
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yeah, I'm making sure I'm tracking with
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you. Thank you for keeping me
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on track. So, so with this book called Christus
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Victor, he's the one who labeled it. That's the
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name of his book. Did he come up with the term or
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was it? He might have. Um, I don't know of anyone
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before him. Okay. Um, it is a classic. Everybody
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00:17:05,399 --> 00:17:08,360
should read it. Um, it's good. I mean, in some
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ways, in many ways it's good, but he way
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overstates his case and says
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that this is the only-
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Any self-respecting person who's going to read the
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patristic writings are
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going to come up with this.
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And he's a systematic theologian, not a
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historical theologian. And,
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and so he's presenting the
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systematic theology. His actual point is to try
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by the end of the book to
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turn Martin Luther into a
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Christus Victor guy. Believe it or not. He's a
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Lutheran theologian. And if you read the whole
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00:17:33,927 --> 00:17:35,721
book, if people read the whole book, that's where
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he's going with it. Okay. I didn't see that one
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coming. Yeah. To be honest with you. I think with
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Luther, he said so much, you can usually find him
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saying anything, but anyway, so with this
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though, this idea, we can blame the Protestants
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that they've got something wrong and the
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Catholics, you know, it's
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00:17:53,363 --> 00:17:56,283
nonviolent. Wow. And you know, and
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like, for instance, N. T. Wright brings up this
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idea. If your view of Christ and the atonement
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can basically have Jesus being born and crucified
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as a baby, then something's wrong.
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Right. And like, amen. Right. So in other words,
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if nothing in the life of Jesus,
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the teachings of Jesus, his presentation of the
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kingdom of God, his resurrection, if any of that
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doesn't play into your Christology and your, and
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your atonement and your salvation,
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then we've got problems. And N. T. Wright was
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really big at bringing that out. And so was,
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right. And so the Anabaptists then have
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always typically grabbed
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onto this and said, whoa,
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that's the problem. So could it be, I can see how
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this comes together then, because it'd be,
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it'd be easy for us as an Anabaptists to be, well,
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that's just the Protestants having, oh,
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it's like a formula and bingo sacrifice done
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deal. And we don't have to
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let you less of an emphasis
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on the life and teachings of Christ and the
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resurrection and, and so forth. And maybe it's
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a bit of pushback towards that. It is. And it's,
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00:19:01,849 --> 00:19:04,810
and it's a nice way, you know, to, to kind of
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belittle the arguments. You know, one of the
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things I always say in my classes is
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any argument that's lasted 500 years, isn't
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stupid. It may be dead
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00:19:14,570 --> 00:19:16,738
wrong, but it's not stupid.
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And we love though, in the theological world,
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just to kind of belittle a theology or to,
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00:19:23,495 --> 00:19:25,706
"that's just stupid." And then you can kind of
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dismiss a 500 year of research and history of
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something. And then you can present your little
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shallow view of something. The truth is,
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and this is where historical theologians really
394
00:19:35,382 --> 00:19:39,970
come out, is like, it's kind of nuanced and that
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there's points here. And yeah, that's a, that's a
396
00:19:42,598 --> 00:19:44,725
good point. And I believe, and if I could say
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this even before we dive into this with
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Anabaptist theology, it has to
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00:19:49,396 --> 00:19:52,399
come back to Christ and Christ
400
00:19:52,524 --> 00:19:56,820
living out his life through us on earth. And so
401
00:19:56,820 --> 00:19:59,031
at the end of the day, you know, all these
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00:19:59,406 --> 00:20:02,034
speculative things on how God saved us and how he
403
00:20:02,034 --> 00:20:04,870
became man are, are kind of arguments that went
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00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:07,497
on in different centuries. The only reason it's
405
00:20:07,497 --> 00:20:09,875
become so important to me is because I have seen
406
00:20:09,875 --> 00:20:13,086
so many of us grab ahold of this and take the
407
00:20:13,086 --> 00:20:15,255
pendulum. And I've seen it literally affect
408
00:20:15,839 --> 00:20:20,427
our worship, our piety, our sense of
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00:20:20,427 --> 00:20:23,513
coming to God, God's grace working in us.
410
00:20:23,972 --> 00:20:26,683
And so anyway, that's the reason. So I think that
411
00:20:26,683 --> 00:20:28,894
Aulén gave this and he said that, well,
412
00:20:29,186 --> 00:20:30,812
then where did this whole thing came from? Well,
413
00:20:30,812 --> 00:20:32,606
he basically says that Anselm of Canterbury
414
00:20:32,773 --> 00:20:35,192
came up with it around the year 1000 or 1100 or
415
00:20:35,192 --> 00:20:37,361
so. And you're meaning penal substitution. Yeah.
416
00:20:37,361 --> 00:20:39,446
So this is before that. It's because of his chivalry
417
00:20:39,446 --> 00:20:42,407
idea. And he gives us this little
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00:20:42,407 --> 00:20:43,992
historiography to kind of follow. And then after
419
00:20:43,992 --> 00:20:46,244
him, you know, or you had Aquinas and Aquinas,
420
00:20:46,244 --> 00:20:48,705
Thomas Aquinas took this and you're like, Oh, so
421
00:20:48,705 --> 00:20:50,499
that's what happened. And they just made such a
422
00:20:50,499 --> 00:20:53,001
profound argument that it affected everyone for
423
00:20:53,001 --> 00:20:54,503
the rest of the world. And
424
00:20:54,503 --> 00:20:58,215
that is complete nonsense.
425
00:20:58,215 --> 00:21:01,385
I mean, just complete nonsense. And so, okay, as
426
00:21:01,385 --> 00:21:02,511
a historical theologian,
427
00:21:02,511 --> 00:21:03,595
when you begin to read the
428
00:21:03,595 --> 00:21:06,056
sources, you're like, okay, that's ridiculous.
429
00:21:06,974 --> 00:21:07,766
You can be a systematic
430
00:21:07,766 --> 00:21:08,934
theologian. And many of you that
431
00:21:08,934 --> 00:21:10,560
are already watching, are already like,
432
00:21:10,811 --> 00:21:12,896
Oh, he doesn't understand God can do this. And
433
00:21:12,896 --> 00:21:14,731
how do you say this about the justice of God? And
434
00:21:14,731 --> 00:21:16,608
can't God just forgive somebody like he did the,
435
00:21:16,775 --> 00:21:20,278
sinner, you know, and-
436
00:21:20,278 --> 00:21:23,407
Okay, all those may be true. And those
437
00:21:23,532 --> 00:21:27,327
all may be true. What I'm going to argue is that
438
00:21:27,327 --> 00:21:30,455
the argument that penal substitutionary atonement
439
00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:35,210
is not in the patristic writings is false and
440
00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:37,379
that it didn't exist till Anselm of Canterbury
441
00:21:37,838 --> 00:21:40,882
is ridiculous. And that this is part of the
442
00:21:40,882 --> 00:21:42,759
witness of the early church. You can
443
00:21:42,759 --> 00:21:44,720
argue, say, Well I don't take the whole
444
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,305
early church. That's fine. Make that argument,
445
00:21:47,639 --> 00:21:49,224
but it's there. And you're going to see today
446
00:21:49,224 --> 00:21:50,976
that it's there. And it's
447
00:21:50,976 --> 00:21:52,352
not just there. I would say
448
00:21:52,477 --> 00:21:55,856
it's when you now accept that you can even read
449
00:21:55,856 --> 00:21:57,357
through some of the more ambiguous passages,
450
00:21:57,357 --> 00:22:01,111
I think better. So just to be really clear then
451
00:22:01,111 --> 00:22:02,612
what we're hitting on this episode,
452
00:22:02,612 --> 00:22:05,574
we're focusing on historical theology here,
453
00:22:05,824 --> 00:22:09,244
right? Of, okay, what is the teachings of the
454
00:22:09,244 --> 00:22:11,663
patristics, the early church writers? And I think
455
00:22:11,663 --> 00:22:12,706
you made an important point there.
456
00:22:13,415 --> 00:22:15,333
Doesn't mean therefore, Oh, it's a hundred
457
00:22:15,333 --> 00:22:16,918
percent, right? But it does mean, okay,
458
00:22:16,918 --> 00:22:19,629
they did teach this and we need to be- am I
459
00:22:19,629 --> 00:22:21,256
getting your argument correct there?
460
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:23,050
I think that's pretty important. I want to just
461
00:22:23,050 --> 00:22:24,634
make sure I get the argument. Usually people
462
00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:27,846
address this philosophically from the start.
463
00:22:28,388 --> 00:22:29,473
Yeah. So they're saying,
464
00:22:29,681 --> 00:22:32,059
this reasoning that God has to
465
00:22:32,059 --> 00:22:35,020
be just as I don't like that, because that means
466
00:22:35,020 --> 00:22:36,772
when he forgave the
467
00:22:36,772 --> 00:22:38,482
sinner, that doesn't fit.
468
00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:40,776
And therefore the systematic stuff doesn't, I'm
469
00:22:40,776 --> 00:22:42,736
not coming from that way. So, okay. So we're not
470
00:22:42,736 --> 00:22:45,447
diving deep into like the philosophy of this,
471
00:22:45,447 --> 00:22:46,740
that, and the other. Okay.
472
00:22:47,324 --> 00:22:48,700
So, so in mind, we'll get
473
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:50,494
into, I'm sure we'll hit some of this, but then
474
00:22:50,494 --> 00:22:51,828
I-- though I can see the
475
00:22:51,828 --> 00:22:52,788
comments already, you know,
476
00:22:52,954 --> 00:22:54,414
there's going to be people saying, well, what about
477
00:22:54,414 --> 00:22:57,626
this passage in such and such early church
478
00:22:57,751 --> 00:23:01,088
writer who very clearly lays out ransom theory.
479
00:23:01,088 --> 00:23:02,756
For example, I last night, I'm pro, you know,
480
00:23:02,756 --> 00:23:04,174
I'm reading through stuff and I'm finding all
481
00:23:04,174 --> 00:23:05,133
kinds of stuff and wait,
482
00:23:05,133 --> 00:23:06,218
wait they're clearly saying,
483
00:23:06,218 --> 00:23:08,386
well, this and this. And so, and I'm sure you'll
484
00:23:08,386 --> 00:23:09,179
get into that as well.
485
00:23:09,179 --> 00:23:10,138
And I believe amen. I would
486
00:23:10,138 --> 00:23:12,265
say amen. Okay. Again, if you were arguing to me
487
00:23:12,265 --> 00:23:13,809
that we shouldn't be Christus Victor,
488
00:23:14,142 --> 00:23:15,811
I would be-- I would be making a different
489
00:23:15,811 --> 00:23:19,189
lecture today. So again, I think what we're
490
00:23:19,189 --> 00:23:20,941
getting at here is you want to make sure we're
491
00:23:20,941 --> 00:23:22,150
being honest about what
492
00:23:22,150 --> 00:23:23,318
the early church is saying
493
00:23:23,401 --> 00:23:26,113
on this topic because it's been over. We've,
494
00:23:26,113 --> 00:23:28,323
swung the pendulum too far to say,
495
00:23:28,323 --> 00:23:29,407
Oh, they don't talk about this. And there's
496
00:23:29,407 --> 00:23:31,076
something deeper with, with historical theology
497
00:23:31,118 --> 00:23:34,538
addresses issues differently. A systematic
498
00:23:34,538 --> 00:23:36,873
theologian takes the doctrine and then builds
499
00:23:36,957 --> 00:23:40,293
it a defense of it. A historical theologian takes
500
00:23:40,293 --> 00:23:43,380
the ancient faith and says, okay,
501
00:23:44,339 --> 00:23:46,800
where does that go? The problem is that when we
502
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,511
get to later centuries, you get into silos.
503
00:23:50,137 --> 00:23:52,722
And as you get into silos, you aren't allowed to
504
00:23:52,722 --> 00:23:55,559
look the other way. In the ancient,
505
00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:58,186
in the patristic sources, like, I have a little
506
00:23:58,186 --> 00:24:01,857
meme that I make on a play on, a scene by,
507
00:24:02,065 --> 00:24:04,359
on Fiddler on the Roof where what's-his-name, he
508
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:05,569
old guy, there is saying, you know,
509
00:24:06,153 --> 00:24:08,363
that can't be right. That can't be right. And
510
00:24:08,363 --> 00:24:08,864
then this guy said, well,
511
00:24:08,864 --> 00:24:09,739
they can't both be right.
512
00:24:09,739 --> 00:24:12,159
And he said, you know what, you're also right. So
513
00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:15,537
it's the nuances there that a
514
00:24:15,537 --> 00:24:17,956
historic theologian takes. And here's why I think
515
00:24:17,956 --> 00:24:20,834
that's so important. When we silo,
516
00:24:21,751 --> 00:24:25,714
you inevitably fall into reductionism.
517
00:24:26,131 --> 00:24:29,092
And so if we've allowed to own the paradox,
518
00:24:29,259 --> 00:24:34,890
allowed to own the, "wow, it has, how does
519
00:24:34,890 --> 00:24:38,602
it mean both?" Then it forces us to a very deeper
520
00:24:38,602 --> 00:24:41,146
understanding of the faith. And you say, how does
521
00:24:41,146 --> 00:24:43,190
it allow for both? When you say both, you're,
522
00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:46,568
you're, referring to Christus Victor and
523
00:24:46,568 --> 00:24:47,611
penal substitution,
524
00:24:47,986 --> 00:24:50,113
right? So all those models are part of the early church.
525
00:24:50,113 --> 00:24:54,117
Christus Victor's there, ransom's- atonement there was- the recapitulation theories are there
526
00:24:55,493 --> 00:24:56,786
All these are part of the ancient faith,
527
00:24:56,786 --> 00:24:59,664
but please don't say that penal substitutionary is not there.
528
00:24:59,664 --> 00:25:01,458
It's very much there. And it's very
529
00:25:01,458 --> 00:25:05,170
important to them. And so what you're- again,
530
00:25:05,253 --> 00:25:07,339
we're making an argument
531
00:25:07,339 --> 00:25:09,591
or you're making a case for,
532
00:25:09,758 --> 00:25:11,301
hey, there's some nuance here. There's some
533
00:25:11,301 --> 00:25:13,595
mystery too. Because if you
534
00:25:13,595 --> 00:25:14,804
have these different views,
535
00:25:14,804 --> 00:25:17,265
like, wait, these are different interpretations
536
00:25:17,265 --> 00:25:18,642
of how the atonement
537
00:25:18,642 --> 00:25:20,143
works in our lives. And you're
538
00:25:20,227 --> 00:25:23,271
suggesting with, yes, and there is some mystery
539
00:25:23,271 --> 00:25:25,649
there and some nuance. And it's kind of how do
540
00:25:25,690 --> 00:25:28,193
these different things work? Because I'm over
541
00:25:28,193 --> 00:25:28,985
here being like, hmm,
542
00:25:29,194 --> 00:25:30,278
because I know my, you know,
543
00:25:30,278 --> 00:25:31,529
my Christus Victor friends are gonna be like,
544
00:25:31,529 --> 00:25:32,489
but it's this and the
545
00:25:32,489 --> 00:25:33,573
penal substitution friends are
546
00:25:33,573 --> 00:25:35,659
gonna be like, but it's this and you're like, no,
547
00:25:35,784 --> 00:25:38,119
it's there. They're both right. And so, so
548
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,872
now the problem is now everybody's going to be
549
00:25:40,872 --> 00:25:43,625
upset because how can they both be right? So,
550
00:25:43,917 --> 00:25:45,835
but we, and we'll get into that in a moment. But
551
00:25:45,835 --> 00:25:47,295
again, I think it's really important--
552
00:25:47,337 --> 00:25:52,509
But you see what that does to our theology? It makes it rich and deep.
553
00:25:53,593 --> 00:25:56,346
Because when we silo, we close our eyes to the
554
00:25:56,346 --> 00:25:58,265
other things. And this is what, when I read it, I
555
00:25:58,265 --> 00:26:01,268
said, bro, you are missing the obvious stuff.
556
00:26:01,893 --> 00:26:03,937
And when I read people today, I mean, when we're
557
00:26:03,937 --> 00:26:04,854
going to get to Origen, I'm
558
00:26:04,938 --> 00:26:06,147
sorry, any self-respecting
559
00:26:06,147 --> 00:26:08,024
person who's read the commentary of Origen of the
560
00:26:08,024 --> 00:26:11,444
Romans and doesn't see this is in a silo. You're
561
00:26:11,444 --> 00:26:12,529
going to see this today by the end of this
562
00:26:12,529 --> 00:26:13,697
message, you're going to
563
00:26:13,697 --> 00:26:14,948
blame it on his translator,
564
00:26:14,948 --> 00:26:16,574
refinance, and you're going to say this or that,
565
00:26:16,825 --> 00:26:18,702
but you're going to have to deny him.
566
00:26:19,244 --> 00:26:20,662
When you're reading, when you hear Chrysostom
567
00:26:20,662 --> 00:26:21,913
speak about it,
568
00:26:21,913 --> 00:26:23,790
if you don't see the penal
569
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,794
substitutionary atonement in Chrysostom, you're in a
570
00:26:27,794 --> 00:26:30,797
silo. And so, but so then how does it, how do
571
00:26:30,797 --> 00:26:33,633
you match then the God forgives? own the,
572
00:26:33,633 --> 00:26:36,720
dynamic, own the rich theology there that's,
573
00:26:36,803 --> 00:26:39,514
that's got the nuances of it all. So let's just
574
00:26:39,514 --> 00:26:41,433
start, let's just start getting into it then,
575
00:26:41,474 --> 00:26:43,935
you know, you've definitely got my curiosity
576
00:26:43,935 --> 00:26:47,397
peaked here because again, I've honestly,
577
00:26:47,397 --> 00:26:49,149
like I've only heard people say, Oh yeah,
578
00:26:49,149 --> 00:26:51,151
early church taught this and they'll have all the
579
00:26:51,151 --> 00:26:53,153
quotes. Yeah. Yeah. Christus Victor, Ransom theory.
580
00:26:53,153 --> 00:26:55,613
It's because of the law. Yeah. Oh, by the way,
581
00:26:55,613 --> 00:26:57,615
there has been a maturity. There has been a
582
00:26:57,615 --> 00:27:01,286
maturity in this discussion. I've been looking
583
00:27:01,286 --> 00:27:04,456
at this for 30 years. Okay. So David's my dad.
584
00:27:05,290 --> 00:27:07,125
David Bercot is my dad. I mean, okay.
585
00:27:07,542 --> 00:27:10,545
I was going to say we've interviewed him
586
00:27:10,545 --> 00:27:12,922
not directly on this, but a bunch of things.
587
00:27:13,173 --> 00:27:15,258
Yeah. And yeah, there's no one has been more
588
00:27:15,258 --> 00:27:17,427
influence and more mentor into the life of Tonya
589
00:27:17,427 --> 00:27:19,637
and I than David and Debra Bercot. Okay. We were in
590
00:27:19,637 --> 00:27:20,513
their living room when I
591
00:27:20,513 --> 00:27:21,222
was right out of the army.
592
00:27:21,890 --> 00:27:23,933
So my first atonement theory that I ever studied
593
00:27:23,933 --> 00:27:26,394
was Christus Victor through the, through when
594
00:27:26,394 --> 00:27:27,979
I was a little, you know, a little boy coming out
595
00:27:27,979 --> 00:27:30,357
of the army, you know, through that. And so as I
596
00:27:30,357 --> 00:27:32,108
read through the- I was okay, that's my
597
00:27:32,108 --> 00:27:35,320
lens, you know, but yet I probably still had my
598
00:27:35,445 --> 00:27:37,739
Southern Baptist in me. That was, wait, that
599
00:27:37,739 --> 00:27:40,825
question doesn't fit. And so as I read through
600
00:27:40,825 --> 00:27:45,580
the fathers I'm like, how does that fit to
601
00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:47,874
paying to Satan or how does
602
00:27:47,874 --> 00:27:49,292
the ransom fit to this? And
603
00:27:49,459 --> 00:27:51,461
it made me think, and so through 30
604
00:27:51,461 --> 00:27:53,296
years, and as I began to
605
00:27:53,296 --> 00:27:54,464
read and looking at this,
606
00:27:54,464 --> 00:27:56,591
I was like, wait a minute. And as much as it
607
00:27:56,591 --> 00:27:58,927
pains me, David and I kind of joke about this,
608
00:27:59,386 --> 00:28:02,222
that we, I remember when I was ordained at
609
00:28:02,222 --> 00:28:03,390
Charity and I think it was
610
00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:04,724
2006 or 5 or something.
611
00:28:05,141 --> 00:28:07,519
And I remember at my ordination, we got home and
612
00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:08,937
he came to my house and let's talk about the
613
00:28:08,937 --> 00:28:11,981
atonement. It's like so,
614
00:28:12,232 --> 00:28:15,402
but so, you know, again, I understand the nuance,
615
00:28:15,777 --> 00:28:18,905
where David and I agree completely is that
616
00:28:18,905 --> 00:28:21,199
Christ came. He saved.
617
00:28:21,408 --> 00:28:22,784
There's been a substitution
618
00:28:22,992 --> 00:28:27,288
of some kind that we're saved by grace and
619
00:28:27,288 --> 00:28:29,833
how that operates, that our works matter,
620
00:28:29,958 --> 00:28:32,627
that all those things are, are things that David
621
00:28:32,627 --> 00:28:34,546
and I agree with. And we have a great time with
622
00:28:34,587 --> 00:28:37,382
that. And this particular, we differ on that. And
623
00:28:37,382 --> 00:28:40,301
it's kind of fun. Last night I emailed David,
624
00:28:40,301 --> 00:28:41,803
it was like, Hey, by the way, I'm talking to Dean
625
00:28:41,803 --> 00:28:43,388
about this. And I know you guys disagree,
626
00:28:43,388 --> 00:28:45,849
if you have any questions. Oh my, he sent me just
627
00:28:45,849 --> 00:28:49,227
some gold, it was some pure gold. And
628
00:28:49,227 --> 00:28:51,104
then he sent a follow up. He was like, "all in
629
00:28:51,104 --> 00:28:52,147
good fun like all in good
630
00:28:52,147 --> 00:28:54,566
nature. But one of them was like,
631
00:28:54,566 --> 00:28:56,568
I mean, I guess, I mean, does Dean like, you
632
00:28:56,568 --> 00:28:57,652
know, just willfully like
633
00:28:57,652 --> 00:28:58,820
misread the early church?
634
00:28:58,862 --> 00:29:02,574
How could you, you know, so to also to be fair
635
00:29:02,574 --> 00:29:04,117
to David Bercot
636
00:29:04,117 --> 00:29:04,909
which we've interviewed a
637
00:29:04,909 --> 00:29:07,078
couple of times on this podcast and highly
638
00:29:07,078 --> 00:29:10,165
respect his work. I love it. At the same time,
639
00:29:10,498 --> 00:29:13,334
you two have a clearly very different perspective
640
00:29:13,334 --> 00:29:14,127
of what the early church
641
00:29:14,127 --> 00:29:15,295
teaches here, which maybe,
642
00:29:15,295 --> 00:29:17,213
by the way, we might just sit down with David and
643
00:29:17,213 --> 00:29:19,132
just talk to him and get his side. That would be
644
00:29:19,132 --> 00:29:21,342
really fun. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's get
645
00:29:21,342 --> 00:29:23,386
you and David together on the podcast and actually
646
00:29:23,386 --> 00:29:25,013
compare notes. I think that could, there could be
647
00:29:25,013 --> 00:29:26,389
some value in that. So anyway, we'll see if that
648
00:29:26,431 --> 00:29:28,475
happens. But I didn't want to note that because
649
00:29:28,475 --> 00:29:30,101
there, there are people
650
00:29:30,101 --> 00:29:33,271
that we know who've looked
651
00:29:33,271 --> 00:29:35,231
into this a lot, who are looking through this
652
00:29:35,231 --> 00:29:36,316
stuff and saying, Oh,
653
00:29:36,316 --> 00:29:37,317
wait, you're wrong. You know,
654
00:29:37,484 --> 00:29:39,444
so we'll- and I'm sure they'll fight it
655
00:29:39,444 --> 00:29:42,780
out in the coments on this video. So yeah,
656
00:29:43,239 --> 00:29:45,200
but I just want to note that and make sure that
657
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,368
that's clear, but also keep a good nature
658
00:29:47,368 --> 00:29:49,287
too. And I think that's the part that I've found
659
00:29:49,287 --> 00:29:51,623
very fun to watch actually. Cause I know you both
660
00:29:51,831 --> 00:29:55,376
And I think that's also part of being a
661
00:29:55,376 --> 00:29:57,253
historic, I learned to be a historical theologian
662
00:29:57,253 --> 00:30:00,840
from David and why you hear it. This is such a
663
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,969
geekish-ly text-based message today. And I,
664
00:30:04,969 --> 00:30:07,555
my apology to your listeners, but that's what I
665
00:30:07,555 --> 00:30:10,391
got from David, you know, let the sources speak.
666
00:30:11,142 --> 00:30:14,729
And so, um, you'll see that coming out. And with
667
00:30:14,729 --> 00:30:16,689
that, again, people
668
00:30:16,689 --> 00:30:18,024
misread David. So is it still,
669
00:30:18,024 --> 00:30:19,567
you know, the question, well, how do you disagree
670
00:30:19,567 --> 00:30:21,361
with David? Well, people misread David Bercot.
671
00:30:22,237 --> 00:30:24,072
Um, and I was just talking with Dave, we
672
00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:24,948
were on a podcast just
673
00:30:24,948 --> 00:30:26,491
last week and we were talking
674
00:30:26,491 --> 00:30:28,368
about the Romans commentary and he said he was
675
00:30:28,368 --> 00:30:31,496
getting in trouble for his, um, Irenic spirit,
676
00:30:31,496 --> 00:30:33,122
you know, where he'd say it says this, but you
677
00:30:33,122 --> 00:30:34,666
know, on the other hand, this is respectable.
678
00:30:35,083 --> 00:30:38,336
You're like, wait a minute. You know, I mean, I
679
00:30:38,336 --> 00:30:39,963
remember back in the early, I'm getting off a
680
00:30:39,963 --> 00:30:41,548
tangent. I remember back in the early days, the
681
00:30:41,548 --> 00:30:45,760
first time I ever heard a profanity at a brothers'
682
00:30:45,885 --> 00:30:49,472
meeting in Texas was when this guy joined us down
683
00:30:49,472 --> 00:30:52,225
in Texas and he wanted David to say we're
684
00:30:52,225 --> 00:30:56,771
the one true church. Oh boy. And when David said,
685
00:30:56,771 --> 00:30:58,022
what are you talking about? I'm not going to say
686
00:30:58,022 --> 00:31:00,316
we're the one true church. Uh, that's not me at
687
00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:02,652
all. And he listened, you mean I came to this
688
00:31:02,902 --> 00:31:09,492
place! You know, and that's not David. And when
689
00:31:09,492 --> 00:31:12,745
you know him well, um, and he's got called out
690
00:31:12,745 --> 00:31:15,206
on it, but I think it's a strength of his and
691
00:31:15,206 --> 00:31:16,624
I've inherited that [from] him
692
00:31:16,624 --> 00:31:18,585
as my biggest mentor,
693
00:31:19,127 --> 00:31:21,546
is this idea of, you know, there's some things
694
00:31:21,546 --> 00:31:25,925
that are, are gray, let's find the Christ basics
695
00:31:26,009 --> 00:31:28,636
and not lose that. And this is where I think
696
00:31:28,636 --> 00:31:30,722
people get off into all kinds of tangents of
697
00:31:30,763 --> 00:31:32,724
orthodoxy and Calvinism and this and this and the
698
00:31:32,724 --> 00:31:35,268
other. And then all of a sudden, so whatever
699
00:31:35,268 --> 00:31:37,687
happened to the teachings of Jesus and what if
700
00:31:37,687 --> 00:31:40,064
Jesus gave us the most important things to worry
701
00:31:40,106 --> 00:31:42,066
about, you know, so two things before we jump
702
00:31:42,066 --> 00:31:44,986
into it. One of the things that I, we don't have
703
00:31:44,986 --> 00:31:47,113
time to dig into it, but a lot of the arguments
704
00:31:47,113 --> 00:31:49,115
is about the idea- This is from the philosophical
705
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,036
side before we get into it- is, uh, well, you
706
00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:55,788
know, is this cosmic child abuse or is it pagan
707
00:31:55,788 --> 00:31:58,082
sacrifices? You know, like, well, one of the
708
00:31:58,082 --> 00:32:00,084
questions someone asked me to ask you was like,
709
00:32:00,084 --> 00:32:02,462
well, was the Father mad at the son? You know
710
00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:03,671
what, like, was the Son,
711
00:32:03,671 --> 00:32:05,131
the object of the Father's
712
00:32:05,131 --> 00:32:06,924
wrath? You know, like, whoa, like how, how could
713
00:32:06,924 --> 00:32:10,136
that be? Um, so it's a, it's a great question,
714
00:32:10,136 --> 00:32:12,639
but I think that, you know, one thing it's a very
715
00:32:12,639 --> 00:32:15,224
important, it's a deeper also, uh, subject of,
716
00:32:15,224 --> 00:32:18,895
of theology. Um, you have to balance the
717
00:32:18,895 --> 00:32:21,981
subordination of Christ to the Father with
718
00:32:22,649 --> 00:32:27,612
the one will of God. And I borrow, it's not
719
00:32:27,612 --> 00:32:29,947
certainly not my thing, a view called
720
00:32:29,947 --> 00:32:33,284
the inseparable operations of the Trinity. Um,
721
00:32:33,284 --> 00:32:34,410
and the- Oh boy, we're getting into the Trinity too?
722
00:32:34,827 --> 00:32:38,790
Just a little bit, just a touch. That all the
723
00:32:38,790 --> 00:32:44,045
actions of God to man works in Trinity. Let
724
00:32:44,045 --> 00:32:45,380
me give you one quote from this. This is from
725
00:32:45,380 --> 00:32:48,716
Gregory of Nyssa on his work on Not Three Gods.
726
00:33:42,603 --> 00:33:44,856
So this idea, it's a patristic idea. This
727
00:33:44,856 --> 00:33:47,108
is Gregory of Nyssa, but if you-
728
00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:48,818
What year is that, by the way? Okay, this is post
729
00:33:48,818 --> 00:33:50,528
Nicene. This is 3 AD or so.
730
00:33:50,778 --> 00:33:54,198
3 AD, Okay. But the idea here,
731
00:33:54,198 --> 00:33:55,908
and here he's dealing with these questions that
732
00:33:55,950 --> 00:34:01,122
are being asked is: Is there one divine will or
733
00:34:01,122 --> 00:34:05,126
three? And you get sometimes in this Christus
734
00:34:05,126 --> 00:34:07,253
Victor world, it kind of slides the trinity is a
735
00:34:07,253 --> 00:34:10,173
dance and there's different things. And I
736
00:34:10,173 --> 00:34:14,010
mean, it gets heretical pretty quick. Um, we still have the
737
00:34:14,010 --> 00:34:15,344
subordination of the son to the father
738
00:34:15,344 --> 00:34:17,638
and that's a different subject, but the balance
739
00:34:17,638 --> 00:34:20,892
you have to keep that paradox in here of the
740
00:34:20,933 --> 00:34:24,604
inseparable operations of the trinity own that
741
00:34:24,604 --> 00:34:27,774
and it'll change your life with everything else.
742
00:34:28,483 --> 00:34:30,401
From everything. So anyway, that's too deep. So
743
00:34:30,401 --> 00:34:31,736
there's some good groundwork there.
744
00:34:32,403 --> 00:34:34,572
The only other thing I want to say is in my 30
745
00:34:34,572 --> 00:34:38,201
years of looking at this, um, I have seen a
746
00:34:38,201 --> 00:34:41,329
maturity in the Christus Victor camp. And the
747
00:34:41,329 --> 00:34:42,413
one that I love the most
748
00:34:42,413 --> 00:34:44,040
is by our good friend N.T. Wright
749
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,375
If you don't mind, I'm going to show
750
00:34:46,375 --> 00:34:48,544
a video here. Also, I just wanted to, I'd be
751
00:34:48,586 --> 00:34:50,922
fascinating to interview him by the way, like
752
00:34:50,922 --> 00:34:53,382
what he's, he's Anglican, right? You know,
753
00:34:53,508 --> 00:34:55,384
Church of England. Written a bunch of
754
00:34:55,384 --> 00:34:57,261
books and stuff. And I value his work.
755
00:34:57,428 --> 00:34:59,347
I would love to talk to him about some of this.
756
00:34:59,347 --> 00:35:00,890
So, which I know he's pretty famous and
757
00:35:00,890 --> 00:35:02,892
hard to get ahold of. If you read his earlier stuff, he raised
758
00:35:02,892 --> 00:35:04,977
the bar. And again, he said, if you're
759
00:35:04,977 --> 00:35:06,771
theology can have Jesus dying on the cross as a
760
00:35:06,771 --> 00:35:09,232
baby, you guys, something wrong and Anaptists are
761
00:35:09,232 --> 00:35:11,734
all over that. Amen. Where's the kingdom? Where's
762
00:35:11,734 --> 00:35:13,528
the resurrection? Where's the life and teachings
763
00:35:13,528 --> 00:35:17,240
of Christ? So he's right. But listen to hear how
764
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:20,701
he's realized in his later years now, I'm
765
00:35:20,701 --> 00:35:22,829
going to play this for you. Okay.
766
00:35:22,829 --> 00:35:24,789
Is this to some extent what people have
767
00:35:24,789 --> 00:35:25,873
termed the Christus Victor
768
00:35:26,165 --> 00:35:29,335
model? "Yes, it is. But the problem with that is
769
00:35:29,335 --> 00:35:31,879
that in the, um, I forget
770
00:35:31,879 --> 00:35:32,755
what it was, fifties and
771
00:35:32,755 --> 00:35:35,216
sixties, there was a famous book on Christus
772
00:35:35,216 --> 00:35:36,884
Victor, which played it off
773
00:35:36,884 --> 00:35:38,094
against the other theories.
774
00:35:38,636 --> 00:35:41,681
And it was that book by a Swedish Bishop called
775
00:35:41,681 --> 00:35:44,892
Gustaf Aulén was obviously reacting against
776
00:35:45,226 --> 00:35:48,479
low grade presentations of an angry, wrathful God
777
00:35:48,479 --> 00:35:50,690
and substitution. And so he said, no, no, no,
778
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:52,984
forget all that it's about God winning the
779
00:35:52,984 --> 00:35:53,985
victory in Christ over the
780
00:35:53,985 --> 00:35:55,528
powers. So it became an either/or.
781
00:35:55,611 --> 00:35:58,364
So many people have thought because we
782
00:35:58,364 --> 00:35:59,031
believe in penal
783
00:35:59,031 --> 00:36:01,075
substitution, we mustn't believe in
784
00:36:01,284 --> 00:36:03,703
Christus Victor. That's completely wrong."
785
00:36:04,829 --> 00:36:06,873
Bam.
That's about, that's really interesting.
786
00:36:06,914 --> 00:36:09,542
So he, the wording there, you know, an either, an
787
00:36:09,542 --> 00:36:11,460
either/or. Either/or. And he's saying,
788
00:36:11,878 --> 00:36:15,256
Own the nuance. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So
789
00:36:15,256 --> 00:36:16,674
that's coming from N.T. Wright. So this isn't just
790
00:36:16,674 --> 00:36:21,637
Dean Taylor making stuff up. So, um, all right,
791
00:36:21,637 --> 00:36:24,724
well then let's get in, I guess to this stuff.
792
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:27,685
I think I've said, um, Oh, one thing, by the way,
793
00:36:27,685 --> 00:36:28,978
I should say, we could talk about it at the other
794
00:36:28,978 --> 00:36:31,314
podcast. I have a hermeneutic that I use called I
795
00:36:31,314 --> 00:36:33,024
use the scar and I have the analogy of, uh,
796
00:36:35,192 --> 00:36:37,778
Thomas looking at Jesus, uh, and looking at the
797
00:36:37,778 --> 00:36:39,739
hand and when we have a doubt on something and
798
00:36:39,739 --> 00:36:41,365
he says, you know, look at the scar on my hands.
799
00:36:41,699 --> 00:36:43,534
Okay. Um, and I use that
800
00:36:43,534 --> 00:36:45,828
S. C. A. R. for scar and it's
801
00:36:45,828 --> 00:36:48,873
Scripture, Christo centric, Antiquity, and Real.
802
00:36:48,873 --> 00:36:52,543
Nothing should be a required from us and for
803
00:36:52,543 --> 00:36:55,212
salvation. That's outside of scripture. That's
804
00:36:55,212 --> 00:36:56,756
the drawing line. Not the
805
00:36:56,756 --> 00:36:58,090
year 100, not the year 150,
806
00:36:58,674 --> 00:37:02,219
not 325, not seven councils, [indistinct],
807
00:37:02,219 --> 00:37:06,015
whatever. Number two is Chris- we read all things
808
00:37:06,098 --> 00:37:08,142
in the scriptures, Christo centric, the old
809
00:37:08,142 --> 00:37:10,102
Testament, looking to Christ, the new Testament,
810
00:37:10,186 --> 00:37:13,189
looking to Christ. Number three, we try the best
811
00:37:13,189 --> 00:37:14,440
we can in all of our
812
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,317
theologies to find the earliest
813
00:37:16,359 --> 00:37:19,278
source. And that's the antiquity, the A, and then
814
00:37:19,278 --> 00:37:23,449
the scar, the R of the scar is real. How has this
815
00:37:23,532 --> 00:37:27,036
worked out in reality- and not in just coffee
816
00:37:27,036 --> 00:37:30,748
table revivals or weird things- in the church
817
00:37:31,666 --> 00:37:34,502
over the centuries. And that matters to me.
818
00:37:34,877 --> 00:37:36,337
And so this whole thing, uh,
819
00:37:36,337 --> 00:37:37,296
and it goes in the priorities
820
00:37:37,380 --> 00:37:40,549
of from one to four scripture, scripture, Christo
821
00:37:40,549 --> 00:37:42,343
centric, antiquity, and real. So if Origen says
822
00:37:42,343 --> 00:37:45,221
something and it's not can be proved in
823
00:37:45,221 --> 00:37:46,847
scripture, forget about it.
824
00:37:46,847 --> 00:37:48,724
But the only other hand, I am
825
00:37:48,724 --> 00:37:51,519
looking for antiquity and something that my
826
00:37:51,519 --> 00:37:54,355
belief is based in antiquity as we, as we learn.
827
00:37:54,605 --> 00:37:56,107
Okay. So we can talk about that another time.
828
00:37:56,482 --> 00:37:57,316
Okay. First, the
829
00:37:57,316 --> 00:37:58,651
definitions of penal substitutionary atonement.
830
00:37:58,651 --> 00:38:01,278
Again, I'm defining that needs to be
831
00:38:01,278 --> 00:38:05,282
understood penal substitutionary atonement. Okay.
832
00:38:05,533 --> 00:38:06,826
So what does that even mean? It's in a lot of
833
00:38:06,826 --> 00:38:08,452
people listening, they think they understand it,
834
00:38:08,452 --> 00:38:09,662
but what is it? What do you know what you're
835
00:38:09,662 --> 00:38:12,081
really saying here? So let's break that word.
836
00:38:12,081 --> 00:38:13,582
What does penal mean? I'm just kind of a weird
837
00:38:13,582 --> 00:38:14,542
word. What does penal mean?
838
00:39:49,386 --> 00:39:51,097
When you're using that, you're saying
839
00:39:51,097 --> 00:39:53,224
like people in the Christus Victor crowd.
840
00:39:53,641 --> 00:39:55,017
Primarily. Yeah.
841
00:40:35,266 --> 00:40:37,852
So as we get into the early ones,
842
00:40:39,228 --> 00:40:41,438
I'm going to point out the nuance. So the first
843
00:40:41,438 --> 00:40:43,440
one that Christus Victor and Aulén's
844
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,194
book is the recapitulation model by
845
00:40:47,194 --> 00:40:48,821
Irenaeus. It's excellent.
846
00:40:48,821 --> 00:40:50,823
It's Christus Victor and it shouts Christus Victor.
847
00:40:52,616 --> 00:40:56,745
This is Irenaeus around the year 150, bishop of Elyon.
848
00:42:10,319 --> 00:42:14,949
Christus Victor, that's it. The Amen, the champion over death,
849
00:42:15,407 --> 00:42:17,743
and that kind of a thing, shouts Christus Victor.
850
00:42:18,744 --> 00:42:20,663
But there's other elements in the,
851
00:42:20,913 --> 00:42:23,624
in the patristics. So that was Irenaeus, just to
852
00:42:23,624 --> 00:42:25,918
be clear, right? Okay. So let's go to Clement
853
00:42:25,918 --> 00:42:29,380
of Rome. Okay. And Clement of Rome, who was
854
00:42:29,380 --> 00:42:30,965
mentioned even in the scriptures, we think,
855
00:42:31,465 --> 00:42:34,176
by Paul, very- apostolic father, even, you
856
00:42:34,176 --> 00:42:35,844
know, a generation, maybe two
857
00:42:35,844 --> 00:42:36,804
generations before Irenaeus,
858
00:42:37,972 --> 00:42:41,558
let us, he says in 1st Corinthians 7,-1st Clement,
859
00:42:41,558 --> 00:42:42,685
excuse me, 7 to the Corinthians,
860
00:42:55,698 --> 00:42:58,200
His context is trying to get the Corinthians to
861
00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,576
repent from throwing out their leader. Keep that in mind.
862
00:43:16,010 --> 00:43:19,805
Now here's the problem in the nuance. In these early
863
00:43:19,847 --> 00:43:23,517
sources, you, Christus victor, I mean, excuse me,
864
00:43:24,435 --> 00:43:25,811
penal substitutionary guys like myself,
865
00:43:25,811 --> 00:43:27,354
you read Chris-, you could read Clement of Rome.
866
00:43:27,354 --> 00:43:28,022
You're like, well, there
867
00:43:28,022 --> 00:43:29,356
it is. The blood of Jesus
868
00:43:29,398 --> 00:43:32,401
shed for us. And there, and, but yet then you get
869
00:43:32,401 --> 00:43:35,362
the, the Christus victor guys say, not so fast,
870
00:43:36,030 --> 00:43:37,906
not so fast. You're reading it because you're
871
00:43:37,906 --> 00:43:40,617
tainted by penal substitutionary thinking
872
00:43:40,993 --> 00:43:45,539
what Clement is saying is that the blood shed to
873
00:43:45,539 --> 00:43:49,293
the devil, then God appreciates and then frees
874
00:43:49,293 --> 00:43:53,088
us. And they read that into that. And it's, it's
875
00:43:53,088 --> 00:43:56,342
possible. It's possible. So the problem with a
876
00:43:56,342 --> 00:43:59,303
lot of the earlier quotes that are on a different
877
00:43:59,303 --> 00:44:00,262
subject here, Clement is
878
00:44:00,262 --> 00:44:01,930
writing about not kicking
879
00:44:01,930 --> 00:44:04,433
out your pre-, your minister in Corinth
880
00:44:04,433 --> 00:44:05,476
and excuse me, in
881
00:44:05,476 --> 00:44:07,144
Corinth. And you get this little
882
00:44:07,144 --> 00:44:08,479
nuggets, you know, and they're beautiful nuggets,
883
00:44:08,479 --> 00:44:10,105
but you're like, so what's he saying about the
884
00:44:10,105 --> 00:44:13,484
atonement? And we read a lot into that. So you
885
00:44:13,484 --> 00:44:16,070
have to then we're going to have to go until we
886
00:44:16,111 --> 00:44:19,365
find some things that are more specifically, and
887
00:44:19,365 --> 00:44:21,200
I could use these and claim they're mine and all
888
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,660
that, but what I've limited myself to is the
889
00:44:23,660 --> 00:44:26,246
quotes and talk about the wrath of God, the
890
00:44:26,246 --> 00:44:29,416
substitution, the sacrifice themes of
891
00:44:29,416 --> 00:44:30,542
the old Testament, the
892
00:44:30,542 --> 00:44:32,336
guilt, those penal
893
00:44:32,336 --> 00:44:34,588
things. I need something that gives us more
894
00:44:34,588 --> 00:44:37,633
definition that we can say, okay, that's PSA.
895
00:44:38,133 --> 00:44:40,386
And the early guys- and then once you accept
896
00:44:40,386 --> 00:44:42,346
that, there are hundreds of
897
00:44:42,346 --> 00:44:43,764
quotes that are punctuated
898
00:44:43,764 --> 00:44:46,308
through the early church that
899
00:44:46,308 --> 00:44:47,935
you then go, Oh, well, then
900
00:44:47,935 --> 00:44:50,604
Clement is probably arguing
901
00:44:50,604 --> 00:44:52,731
here for penal substitutionary atonement. I think
902
00:44:52,731 --> 00:44:55,609
he is. Um, even though I will admit you can read
903
00:44:55,609 --> 00:44:57,778
that in different ways, uh, just a little more
904
00:44:57,778 --> 00:45:02,074
difficult in my opinion. All right. So because
905
00:45:02,074 --> 00:45:05,285
of this, let's go in and to some of the quotes.
906
00:45:05,285 --> 00:45:06,745
All right. So this gets dense. All right, you're
907
00:45:06,745 --> 00:45:11,750
ready. Roll up your sleeve. So now we
908
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:14,044
are focusing specifically on
909
00:45:14,336 --> 00:45:18,340
patristic early church writings, um, that you
910
00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:19,550
would say, okay, this,
911
00:45:19,550 --> 00:45:21,260
this is penal substitutionary atonement.
912
00:45:21,260 --> 00:45:23,053
And I'm hunting- what I'm trying to do here.
913
00:45:23,804 --> 00:45:26,223
Again, remember I'm a Christus Victor guy too.
914
00:45:26,682 --> 00:45:29,518
Okay. I'm hunting for like, when I read these and
915
00:45:29,518 --> 00:45:31,687
my working through my first, my first view was
916
00:45:31,687 --> 00:45:33,981
Christus Victor. I got to some of these quotes
917
00:45:33,981 --> 00:45:37,192
and like, how does that fit Christus Victor? How
918
00:45:37,192 --> 00:45:39,528
does that paying a ransom to the devil or even to
919
00:45:39,528 --> 00:45:42,197
God in a ransom sense? How does, how is that not
920
00:45:42,197 --> 00:45:45,576
sacrifice? And the earlier ones here
921
00:45:45,576 --> 00:45:46,577
are still a little
922
00:45:46,577 --> 00:45:48,662
ambiguous. You'll see as they go to
923
00:45:48,662 --> 00:45:52,791
Origen, Eusebius, and Chrysostom. You then read the
924
00:45:52,791 --> 00:45:55,127
other ones back a lot more clear. So let's start
925
00:45:55,127 --> 00:45:56,879
with, let's start with the early ones, E pistle of
926
00:45:56,879 --> 00:45:58,964
Barnabas and just get some of them that you began
927
00:45:59,089 --> 00:46:01,133
to see. So who, who wrote this? The epistle of
928
00:46:01,133 --> 00:46:02,718
Barnabas, right. Very early. This is around the
929
00:46:02,718 --> 00:46:08,849
year a hundred AD. This is volume one, I
930
00:46:08,849 --> 00:46:10,476
have here in his epistle,
931
00:46:10,684 --> 00:46:11,435
the epistle of Barnabas,
932
00:46:11,685 --> 00:46:14,229
chapter five, and the next quote will be chapter
933
00:46:14,229 --> 00:46:16,982
eight. "For to this end," and he's given
934
00:46:17,065 --> 00:46:19,109
us a, an interpretation of the old Testament
935
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:21,695
sacrifices. So it's an interesting thing
936
00:46:21,695 --> 00:46:23,155
to hone in on, you know.
937
00:46:30,913 --> 00:46:37,294
Notice we're cleansed from sins, not just freed from death.
938
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,595
So again, Christus Victor guy
939
00:47:28,595 --> 00:47:31,223
could still, they'll get out of there,
940
00:47:31,223 --> 00:47:33,600
they'll get out of here. Don't worry. But I would
941
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,436
say the easy learning of this, you have an
942
00:47:36,436 --> 00:47:38,897
expiation sacrifice in the old Testament for the
943
00:47:38,897 --> 00:47:41,817
sins of the people. This is in my opinion,
944
00:47:42,109 --> 00:47:44,736
the plain way to read it. A Christus Victor guy
945
00:47:44,736 --> 00:47:46,947
can wiggle out of that though. All right. Let's
946
00:47:46,989 --> 00:47:49,491
go to Diognetus, the letter of Diognetus. It's
947
00:47:49,491 --> 00:47:50,284
one of my favorite. It
948
00:47:50,284 --> 00:47:52,494
clearly has both, which is my
949
00:47:52,494 --> 00:47:55,163
take that there's both through it all. So again,
950
00:47:55,163 --> 00:47:56,665
and now when was this written? The letter of
951
00:47:56,665 --> 00:47:59,710
Diognetus was again, very early, 150, 120 or so.
952
00:47:59,710 --> 00:48:01,086
We don't know exactly who wrote it. The word
953
00:48:01,086 --> 00:48:05,299
Diognetus is just a disciple. And he mentions
954
00:48:05,299 --> 00:48:09,011
this theme and it's beautiful. And he talks about
955
00:48:09,011 --> 00:48:12,222
ransom and he talks about this atonement in a
956
00:48:12,222 --> 00:48:14,975
sense of the way of a covering, which a lot of
957
00:48:15,017 --> 00:48:17,185
CV guys, Christus Victor guys don't like this
958
00:48:17,185 --> 00:48:19,187
cover the of sins of, you
959
00:48:19,187 --> 00:48:19,938
know, that kind of thing.
960
00:48:19,938 --> 00:48:21,565
So anyway, let's get into this quote. It's
961
00:48:21,565 --> 00:48:23,525
beautiful, beautiful quote, worshipful quote.
962
00:48:26,903 --> 00:48:30,532
notice the problem is sin. Some people push it so
963
00:48:30,532 --> 00:48:32,618
far, it's not sin, it's death or the problem is
964
00:48:32,618 --> 00:48:34,286
not having teaching. The
965
00:48:34,286 --> 00:48:35,329
problem to the patristics,
966
00:48:35,329 --> 00:48:36,872
the problem is sin.
967
00:50:12,092 --> 00:50:17,597
Praise God. So the obvious reading to this is that
968
00:50:18,265 --> 00:50:23,603
our sin was placed upon him, and that it's by his
969
00:50:23,603 --> 00:50:25,605
righteousness that the exchange happened,
970
00:50:25,605 --> 00:50:28,734
that we are saved. And so again, I've heard
971
00:50:28,734 --> 00:50:30,736
people try to turn this
972
00:50:30,736 --> 00:50:32,279
into somehow a ransom to the
973
00:50:32,279 --> 00:50:35,282
devil or something, and it's awkward, but it does
974
00:50:35,282 --> 00:50:36,533
say he's ransom to us.
975
00:50:36,533 --> 00:50:38,076
Well, you do have a mixture
976
00:50:38,285 --> 00:50:41,121
in here, and life and death is all part of it,
977
00:50:41,121 --> 00:50:42,956
but to remove sin is the
978
00:50:42,956 --> 00:50:44,332
problem. Death is also the
979
00:50:44,374 --> 00:50:48,086
problem. Amen. Anyway, all right, let's go to the
980
00:50:48,086 --> 00:50:50,088
next one is Methodius and one by
981
00:50:52,507 --> 00:50:55,427
Lactantius. And these are both looking at the
982
00:50:55,427 --> 00:50:58,472
Old Testament sacrifice. And again, we're looking
983
00:50:58,472 --> 00:51:01,892
at that penal expiation to God kind of a thing
984
00:51:01,892 --> 00:51:05,812
and see how it plays out. Notice the place that
985
00:51:05,812 --> 00:51:09,191
the sacrificial blood makes in the argument.
986
00:51:55,445 --> 00:51:58,448
So again, just the analogy here, it's the wrath
987
00:51:58,448 --> 00:52:00,909
of God, I'm sorry, it's
988
00:52:00,909 --> 00:52:03,495
there, and that this blood
989
00:52:03,662 --> 00:52:06,998
appeases that wrath of the curse that comes upon
990
00:52:06,998 --> 00:52:10,877
mankind. Again, really leaning back or pointing
991
00:52:10,877 --> 00:52:13,672
back to the Old Testament sacrifice and so forth.
992
00:52:13,672 --> 00:52:15,715
Yeah, an expiation sacrifice to God.
993
00:52:16,174 --> 00:52:18,343
[indistinct]... Lactantius basically the same way. These
994
00:52:18,343 --> 00:52:19,845
guys are all close to the
995
00:52:19,845 --> 00:52:21,429
end of the Nicene period.
996
00:53:18,194 --> 00:53:21,781
Again just looking into the sacrifices there. All right, so
997
00:53:21,781 --> 00:53:24,576
now let's go deep. Okay, let's go to Origen.
998
00:53:25,243 --> 00:53:28,038
It's funny, I remember years ago I'm talking to
999
00:53:28,038 --> 00:53:30,957
some guy, I am on the phone and because
Speaker:
00:53:31,291 --> 00:53:32,876
and they had a group that were really getting
Speaker:
00:53:32,876 --> 00:53:35,211
into this, you know, and some offshoot,
Speaker:
00:53:36,004 --> 00:53:37,631
wouldn't have called himself Anabaptist, but you
Speaker:
00:53:37,631 --> 00:53:40,926
know, some was in the fringes of our
Speaker:
00:53:40,926 --> 00:53:44,304
circles. And he was talking to me and he said,
Speaker:
00:53:44,304 --> 00:53:45,931
"Dean, you don't..." He said, "We have Origen's
Speaker:
00:53:45,931 --> 00:53:47,557
view of the atonement." I said, "Oh, you do?" He
Speaker:
00:53:47,557 --> 00:53:49,184
said, "Yes, we do." I
Speaker:
00:53:49,184 --> 00:53:50,727
said, "Really? Well, can you
Speaker:
00:53:50,727 --> 00:53:52,395
explain that to me?" And of course, he talks
Speaker:
00:53:52,395 --> 00:53:53,855
about the idea of the ransom to the devil,
Speaker:
00:53:53,939 --> 00:53:57,734
Origen's famous quote that the death of Jesus was
Speaker:
00:53:57,734 --> 00:53:59,694
a ransom to the devil. And I said, "So,
Speaker:
00:54:00,153 --> 00:54:02,155
I don't think you understand Origen." I tried to
Speaker:
00:54:02,155 --> 00:54:04,783
appeal to him and he was very mad and said,
Speaker:
00:54:04,908 --> 00:54:06,952
you know, all these very exciting things to me.
Speaker:
00:54:07,661 --> 00:54:10,872
And the irony is all these people who go around
Speaker:
00:54:10,872 --> 00:54:12,499
saying that they have Origen's view of the
Speaker:
00:54:12,499 --> 00:54:15,585
atonement have never read Origen. And what I'm
Speaker:
00:54:15,585 --> 00:54:19,881
about to read to you, if you can truly, if you're
Speaker:
00:54:19,881 --> 00:54:22,217
not changed by the quotes
Speaker:
00:54:22,217 --> 00:54:23,385
that I read to you today,
Speaker:
00:54:23,885 --> 00:54:26,054
from Origen's commentary to the book of Romans,
Speaker:
00:54:26,763 --> 00:54:28,723
then I think you're in a silo.
Speaker:
00:54:30,892 --> 00:54:32,644
Okay. First, let me give you
Speaker:
00:54:32,644 --> 00:54:34,688
the famous quote that we have.
Speaker:
00:54:35,105 --> 00:54:35,855
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker:
00:54:35,855 --> 00:54:37,190
Let's start with that. Okay.
Speaker:
00:54:37,190 --> 00:54:38,650
So let's start with the famous one. This is the
Speaker:
00:54:38,650 --> 00:54:41,069
famous, Aulén quotes this. This is the one quote
Speaker:
00:54:41,069 --> 00:54:43,863
that Aulén does give in his Christus Victor book.
Speaker:
00:54:44,072 --> 00:54:46,199
And it's an odd quote. And he says,
Speaker:
00:54:46,825 --> 00:54:48,868
So this is Origen speaking about, well, who's
Speaker:
00:54:48,868 --> 00:54:50,704
the sacrifice paid to? Is it, you know, like
Speaker:
00:54:50,912 --> 00:54:53,248
Lactantius and Methodius said, you know, or who's
Speaker:
00:54:53,248 --> 00:54:55,625
it paid to?" And Origen says,
Speaker:
00:55:12,851 --> 00:55:16,604
Now, whoa. So here's Origen's view of the
Speaker:
00:55:16,604 --> 00:55:19,941
atonement, so-called. It's interesting. That
Speaker:
00:55:20,025 --> 00:55:23,987
quote from that commentary of the gospel of
Speaker:
00:55:23,987 --> 00:55:26,614
Matthew is not in the ante-nicene. As a matter
Speaker:
00:55:26,614 --> 00:55:28,450
of fact, I have never been able to find an
Speaker:
00:55:28,450 --> 00:55:30,493
English translation of the context of this
Speaker:
00:55:30,493 --> 00:55:33,455
quote until recently. In 2020, I think a Reformed
Speaker:
00:55:33,455 --> 00:55:36,249
young man posted it. I have the article here,
Speaker:
00:55:37,333 --> 00:55:39,544
posted here, the source, you can go look at it.
Speaker:
00:55:39,794 --> 00:55:41,212
And finally, we get an interpretation.
Speaker:
00:55:41,629 --> 00:55:45,050
It's an odd one. As in, can you go and get this
Speaker:
00:55:45,050 --> 00:55:47,844
book by Origen, you're saying? Like you were
Speaker:
00:55:47,886 --> 00:55:50,221
struggling to find a translation. You cannot find
Speaker:
00:55:50,221 --> 00:55:54,184
the commentary of Origen to the gospel of
Speaker:
00:55:54,184 --> 00:55:56,644
Matthew in just an easy form. It's in fragments.
Speaker:
00:55:57,270 --> 00:55:59,314
What we have is from Jerome, and he has... So
Speaker:
00:55:59,314 --> 00:56:01,816
Jerome's talking about it, and you have to pull
Speaker:
00:56:01,816 --> 00:56:04,110
these quotes out of Jerome's Latin manuscript.
Speaker:
00:56:04,110 --> 00:56:07,113
Oh, whoa. So we haven't had it. Or then the Greek
Speaker:
00:56:08,573 --> 00:56:11,076
scraps of this all is very hard to find. I've
Speaker:
00:56:11,076 --> 00:56:12,744
quoted the source to here. You can go to an
Speaker:
00:56:12,744 --> 00:56:16,831
excellent article has done on this. When you read
Speaker:
00:56:16,831 --> 00:56:19,584
the context, it's a little weird.
Speaker:
00:56:21,294 --> 00:56:22,837
I don't know what to do with it.
Speaker:
00:56:22,837 --> 00:56:25,381
Origen's, you take them. You're like,
Speaker:
00:56:25,882 --> 00:56:28,343
okay, that's amazing, but what is that? And every
Speaker:
00:56:28,343 --> 00:56:29,677
now and then you're hit with what was that.
Speaker:
00:56:30,178 --> 00:56:37,018
The context of this is he's saying that His soul,
Speaker:
00:56:37,352 --> 00:56:39,270
to whom did God give His soul a ransom?
Speaker:
00:56:39,979 --> 00:56:43,233
But he actually divides Jesus that his spirit, he
Speaker:
00:56:43,233 --> 00:56:45,568
does different, his body, he does different,
Speaker:
00:56:45,568 --> 00:56:47,987
and his soul, he does different. Explain that
Speaker:
00:56:47,987 --> 00:56:49,864
with Nicene Christology,
Speaker:
00:56:49,864 --> 00:56:50,907
and you'll be good to find it.
Speaker:
00:56:50,907 --> 00:56:54,244
Let me read you what he says. It's weird. It goes
Speaker:
00:56:54,244 --> 00:56:56,121
on, and thanks to this article here,
Speaker:
00:57:55,889 --> 00:57:57,432
So this kind of puts some context through this
-I'm confused-
Speaker:
00:57:57,473 --> 00:58:00,602
famous... You should be.
-Yeah, okay. So he's
Speaker:
00:58:00,602 --> 00:58:03,188
separating the work of Christ in a way that I
Speaker:
00:58:03,438 --> 00:58:05,398
don't think you could do in an orthodox manner.
Speaker:
00:58:06,357 --> 00:58:07,192
Yeah, like is this
Speaker:
00:58:07,192 --> 00:58:09,360
bordering on heresy a little bit?
Speaker:
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:10,737
Absolutely. Yeah, okay. Again, to be fair to
Speaker:
00:58:10,737 --> 00:58:13,072
Origen, he does many times
Speaker:
00:58:13,072 --> 00:58:14,657
say, "This is the received
Speaker:
00:58:14,657 --> 00:58:16,451
stuff." Interesting. "This is the stuff I'm
Speaker:
00:58:16,451 --> 00:58:17,493
speculating on." And you've
Speaker:
00:58:17,493 --> 00:58:18,786
got to give Origin that credit.
Speaker:
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,789
So this could potentially just speculate. It's
Speaker:
00:58:21,789 --> 00:58:24,500
fragmented as it is, and so you've got to,
Speaker:
00:58:24,584 --> 00:58:26,085
benefit of the doubt, give Origen that he's
Speaker:
00:58:26,085 --> 00:58:27,503
just... And also he had
Speaker:
00:58:27,503 --> 00:58:29,005
like... He was the first... He's
Speaker:
00:58:29,005 --> 00:58:30,882
in Alexandria. He's got all these guys, and he
Speaker:
00:58:30,882 --> 00:58:34,719
had all these scribes. So this guy could walk
Speaker:
00:58:34,719 --> 00:58:38,223
around in his robe saying all this cool stuff. He
Speaker:
00:58:38,223 --> 00:58:39,933
had these guys write it down. We have more stuff
Speaker:
00:58:39,933 --> 00:58:43,061
from Origen than anybody. And so it's kind of
Speaker:
00:58:43,061 --> 00:58:45,021
like Luther. You can find Origen saying anything.
Speaker:
00:58:45,897 --> 00:58:49,901
The point being, regardless... This
Speaker:
00:58:49,901 --> 00:58:52,820
is the famous Origen atonement quote.
Speaker:
00:58:53,154 --> 00:58:56,449
And also you're just saying, "Hey, before we get
Speaker:
00:58:56,449 --> 00:58:58,326
all excited about this, the
Speaker:
00:58:58,326 --> 00:58:59,911
context here is important."
Speaker:
00:58:59,911 --> 00:59:03,539
It's a little sus. Yeah. It's a little sus. I
Speaker:
00:59:03,539 --> 00:59:04,165
don't know what to do with
Speaker:
00:59:04,165 --> 00:59:05,375
it. I'm like, "Okay, Origen."
Speaker:
00:59:05,375 --> 00:59:07,502
Well, I mean, Origen is kind of one of those...
Speaker:
00:59:07,502 --> 00:59:08,962
Yeah. You read it and
Speaker:
00:59:08,962 --> 00:59:10,004
you're just like... You just
Speaker:
00:59:10,004 --> 00:59:12,548
kind of scratch your head a bunch, and like, "I'm
Speaker:
00:59:12,548 --> 00:59:14,842
not quite sure where he's going here." It's just
Speaker:
00:59:14,842 --> 00:59:17,553
kind of odd sometimes. Yeah. Interesting. Well
Speaker:
00:59:17,553 --> 00:59:18,805
then, okay. Well then, and
Speaker:
00:59:18,805 --> 00:59:19,847
it's interesting, his idea
Speaker:
00:59:20,223 --> 00:59:22,934
of the ransom being paid to the devil was
Speaker:
00:59:22,934 --> 00:59:24,936
actually developed by Gregory of Nyssa later,
Speaker:
00:59:24,936 --> 00:59:26,604
probably reading Origen. Gregory of Nyssa would
Speaker:
00:59:26,604 --> 00:59:30,608
have loved Origen. And the interesting thing is
Speaker:
00:59:30,733 --> 00:59:33,778
where that argument goes, this is a tangent, is
Speaker:
00:59:33,778 --> 00:59:38,366
that God's not being deceptive, Gregory of Nyssa
Speaker:
00:59:38,366 --> 00:59:41,119
implies, or actually says specifically at this
Speaker:
00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:43,705
point, that he was tricking Satan that's what makes
Speaker:
00:59:43,705 --> 00:59:46,291
him a liar, because what he was really doing was
Speaker:
00:59:46,291 --> 00:59:50,795
saving Satan. Now, this is Gregory of Nyssa.
Speaker:
00:59:51,421 --> 00:59:53,881
Because eventually he gets saved, and all of
Speaker:
00:59:53,881 --> 00:59:55,466
evil. Satan does. But see,
Speaker:
00:59:55,466 --> 00:59:56,592
it... wasn't Gregory of Nyssa,
Speaker:
00:59:56,592 --> 00:59:58,428
like Universalist, or like, leaning that way?
Speaker:
00:59:58,428 --> 01:00:00,221
Yeah, and so was, kind of, Origen. So anyway,
Speaker:
01:00:01,055 --> 01:00:02,682
and he didn't say the explicit, he said all evil
Speaker:
01:00:02,682 --> 01:00:05,184
gets redeemed. Okay, so there's an interesting
Speaker:
01:00:05,226 --> 01:00:08,187
article I have it on here. I found once Paul
Speaker:
01:00:08,187 --> 01:00:09,856
Anthony on To Heaven with the Devil. It's an
Speaker:
01:00:09,856 --> 01:00:11,441
interesting take on you can read Gregory of
Speaker:
01:00:11,441 --> 01:00:14,485
Nyssa. And nowadays, all the sources are there,
Speaker:
01:00:14,485 --> 01:00:17,363
in this new generation. Interesting. Well, we I
Speaker:
01:00:17,363 --> 01:00:18,906
have a feeling we're going to need to put a lot
Speaker:
01:00:18,906 --> 01:00:21,284
of sources in the show notes for this. So here's
Speaker:
01:00:21,284 --> 01:00:22,243
a good everybody go out
Speaker:
01:00:22,243 --> 01:00:24,537
and buy Origen's commentary,
Speaker:
01:00:24,537 --> 01:00:27,290
the Book of Romans, book one and book two. And
Speaker:
01:00:27,290 --> 01:00:28,499
you will have the source for that. All right,
Speaker:
01:00:28,499 --> 01:00:30,335
we'll link that. Yeah, it'll change your life.
Speaker:
01:00:31,461 --> 01:00:34,255
All right. So is there any place that then
Speaker:
01:00:34,839 --> 01:00:37,717
Origen spoke clearly? That's kind of weird.
Speaker:
01:00:37,717 --> 01:00:38,551
That's kind of ambiguous.
Speaker:
01:00:38,551 --> 01:00:40,053
It was in fragments as it is.
Speaker:
01:00:40,595 --> 01:00:43,264
So we do it granted it was it's we have the Latin
Speaker:
01:00:43,264 --> 01:00:47,393
text. Translated by Rufinus. If a desperate
Speaker:
01:00:47,393 --> 01:00:48,978
Christus Victor after they finally are
Speaker:
01:00:48,978 --> 01:00:50,063
confronted with this will
Speaker:
01:00:50,063 --> 01:00:51,814
usually say, it's all Rufinus'
Speaker:
01:00:51,814 --> 01:00:54,067
fault. It's his fault. He changed everything.
Speaker:
01:00:54,067 --> 01:00:56,611
I'm like, I've heard that. Okay, I've heard maybe
Speaker:
01:00:56,611 --> 01:01:01,366
a word here a word there. When you finally just
Speaker:
01:01:01,366 --> 01:01:03,534
read it, you're like, okay, he didn't change the
Speaker:
01:01:03,534 --> 01:01:08,790
whole chapter. You have to face that either you
Speaker:
01:01:08,790 --> 01:01:13,127
throw out all of Origen or okay, this stuff is
Speaker:
01:01:13,127 --> 01:01:16,005
pretty clear. And Rufinus did not change all of
Speaker:
01:01:16,005 --> 01:01:18,800
this. That's interesting. The nuances of words
Speaker:
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:22,720
and interpretations. Okay. Okay. Fine. But I have
Speaker:
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:24,847
heard that argument, though. I have been given
Speaker:
01:01:24,847 --> 01:01:27,183
that argument. Yeah. Poor translation, you know,
Speaker:
01:01:27,350 --> 01:01:30,144
and all of this. But anyway, continue. Okay, so
Speaker:
01:01:30,728 --> 01:01:32,772
we're going to go hop into Romans chapter three,
Speaker:
01:01:33,689 --> 01:01:37,402
the big propitiation passage. And one of the
Speaker:
01:01:37,402 --> 01:01:39,570
important points of penal substitutionary in the
Speaker:
01:01:39,570 --> 01:01:41,697
scripture is the verse in Romans chapter three,
Speaker:
01:01:41,697 --> 01:01:42,782
verse 24 and 25,
Speaker:
01:02:02,260 --> 01:02:05,346
So it's very important to penal substitutionary.
Speaker:
01:02:05,721 --> 01:02:08,516
So I wonder what Origen thought of that. And
Speaker:
01:02:08,516 --> 01:02:10,184
usually people, they would interpret just this
Speaker:
01:02:10,184 --> 01:02:11,144
one little tibet that we
Speaker:
01:02:11,144 --> 01:02:12,353
got out of Gustaf alone,
Speaker:
01:02:13,104 --> 01:02:15,606
Aulén, but let's actually dig into it.
Speaker:
01:02:16,482 --> 01:02:17,567
Fortunately, this word
Speaker:
01:02:17,567 --> 01:02:19,819
propitiation is a hot topic and you can
Speaker:
01:02:19,819 --> 01:02:22,572
geek out in the internet till it's not really the
Speaker:
01:02:22,572 --> 01:02:23,823
mercy seat. It's not
Speaker:
01:02:23,823 --> 01:02:25,324
really an expiation sacrifice.
Speaker:
01:02:26,033 --> 01:02:29,704
It's really Jesus himself. And that word is
Speaker:
01:02:29,704 --> 01:02:32,123
interpreted and there's a lot of you can
Speaker:
01:02:32,123 --> 01:02:35,543
geek out forever on trying to lower the view of
Speaker:
01:02:35,543 --> 01:02:37,753
propitiation as not meaning an expiation
Speaker:
01:02:38,004 --> 01:02:40,840
to the Father. And that's where the debates and
Speaker:
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:43,593
this goes. Okay. And so it's not a sacrifice.
Speaker:
01:02:43,593 --> 01:02:45,511
It's just Jesus himself and that kind of thing.
Speaker:
01:02:45,511 --> 01:02:49,098
Fortunately, not only does does Origen deal with
Speaker:
01:02:49,098 --> 01:02:51,142
the word propitiation in a very scholarly
Speaker:
01:02:51,142 --> 01:02:52,727
way, he even owns the
Speaker:
01:02:52,727 --> 01:02:54,061
nuances of how in Greek and Latin
Speaker:
01:02:54,145 --> 01:02:56,105
it's different and that kind of a thing. And so
Speaker:
01:02:56,105 --> 01:02:58,232
he goes that. So let's get right into Origen.
Speaker:
01:02:59,817 --> 01:03:01,694
And I have all these quoted for
Speaker:
01:03:01,694 --> 01:03:03,488
you, the sources and the page numbers.
Speaker:
01:03:28,930 --> 01:03:33,100
What does that sound like? They were prisoners and they're
Speaker:
01:03:33,100 --> 01:03:36,312
let go. Christus Victor. Clear Christus Victor
Speaker:
01:03:36,312 --> 01:03:39,524
language. So he's saying this is what it means.
Speaker:
01:03:39,524 --> 01:03:41,275
Redemption in Christ Jesus. It's Christus Victor.
Speaker:
01:03:41,484 --> 01:03:43,361
You are in him. You were captive and now you're
Speaker:
01:03:43,361 --> 01:03:46,322
let go. It screams Christus Victor, screams it,
Speaker:
01:03:46,948 --> 01:03:49,992
but he goes on. And remember, it's both. It's all.
Speaker:
01:04:52,430 --> 01:04:55,182
He goes on Origen understands in these
Speaker:
01:04:55,182 --> 01:04:57,768
different terms of, of the propitiation.
Speaker:
01:05:48,694 --> 01:05:51,489
is the language that he's,
Speaker:
01:05:51,489 --> 01:05:53,824
getting to. Then he goes on to explain how
Speaker:
01:05:53,824 --> 01:05:55,951
this is in- and other ways, and we're going
Speaker:
01:05:55,951 --> 01:05:57,870
to get back to those and other places, Origen
Speaker:
01:05:57,870 --> 01:06:00,039
uses in his commentary, the book of Numbers,
Speaker:
01:06:00,748 --> 01:06:03,250
speaking of the sacrifices that we see in the old
Speaker:
01:06:03,250 --> 01:06:05,086
Testament Origen makes this statement.
Speaker:
01:06:37,410 --> 01:06:39,328
And again, this is a commentary on the book of
Speaker:
01:06:39,328 --> 01:06:41,664
Numbers on how to understand the Old Testament
Speaker:
01:06:41,706 --> 01:06:45,751
sacrifices. Okay. So one of the things that
Speaker:
01:06:45,751 --> 01:06:48,129
Christus Victor people and
Speaker:
01:06:48,129 --> 01:06:49,338
when they've swung too far
Speaker:
01:06:50,131 --> 01:06:53,426
typically say is this whole idea of the God is
Speaker:
01:06:53,426 --> 01:06:56,095
just, and so he can't forgive. Well, that is the
Speaker:
01:06:56,429 --> 01:06:58,723
most popular debate. What about the guy that
Speaker:
01:06:58,723 --> 01:07:02,101
forgiven? And he [indistinct] just says
Speaker:
01:07:02,101 --> 01:07:05,646
you're forgiven. So obviously the early church
Speaker:
01:07:05,646 --> 01:07:08,232
didn't believe this co-concept of God being just,
Speaker:
01:07:08,232 --> 01:07:12,445
and that's thrown on the middle ages as chivalry
Speaker:
01:07:12,445 --> 01:07:15,364
and all this kind of thing. So let's see what Origen says.
Speaker:
01:07:45,811 --> 01:07:51,859
Amen. Thank you, Origen. The other thing is the
Speaker:
01:07:51,942 --> 01:07:56,280
idea of imputed, our sin imputed to him. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:57,281
This is a really big one.
Speaker:
01:07:57,281 --> 01:07:58,282
Yeah, talk to me about that.
Speaker:
01:07:58,282 --> 01:08:00,367
Origen takes it so far. I had to be honest, I'm
Speaker:
01:08:00,367 --> 01:08:01,994
not comfortable where he goes with it,
Speaker:
01:08:02,411 --> 01:08:04,622
but let me read to you that he doesn't ever fall
Speaker:
01:08:04,622 --> 01:08:06,248
in with our sin being imputed to Jesus. And he says this,
Speaker:
01:08:28,312 --> 01:08:31,106
I don't agree with him,
Speaker:
01:08:31,649 --> 01:08:34,485
but the idea there is that idea
Speaker:
01:08:34,485 --> 01:08:38,239
of the sins being laid upon him is
Speaker:
01:08:38,239 --> 01:08:42,326
clearly there. So the basic thing though, "are
Speaker:
01:08:42,326 --> 01:08:43,911
you, Dean, are you trying to argue that Origen is
Speaker:
01:08:43,953 --> 01:08:46,497
just a PSA guy? Penal substitutionary?" Well,
Speaker:
01:08:46,497 --> 01:08:48,457
I'm curious. Yeah. Are you? Yeah.
Speaker:
01:08:48,457 --> 01:08:51,168
No, remember he starts the whole thing by giving
Speaker:
01:08:51,168 --> 01:08:54,588
this beautiful analogy of captives being let go.
Speaker:
01:08:55,631 --> 01:08:59,009
Origen's point. And this is the
Speaker:
01:08:59,009 --> 01:09:02,304
point we have to all get is that Jesus
Speaker:
01:09:04,515 --> 01:09:09,311
is way too dynamic, like a diamond, like to try
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01:09:09,311 --> 01:09:12,064
to narrow this down to one little metaphor.
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01:09:12,690 --> 01:09:13,357
Listen to this quote.
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01:09:40,342 --> 01:09:42,428
So he's saying that in the context of both the
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01:09:42,428 --> 01:09:45,055
remember, he's saying first it's the analogy of
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01:09:45,055 --> 01:09:46,932
the Christus Victor there, let go said, but then
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01:09:46,932 --> 01:09:49,852
he's saying even something more profound. And he
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01:09:49,852 --> 01:09:52,271
gives us the sacrifice thing. And then he ends
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01:09:52,271 --> 01:09:53,063
this whole things in the
Speaker:
01:09:53,063 --> 01:09:54,148
book of Roman's commentary here
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01:09:54,148 --> 01:09:59,445
saying Jesus is a- C.S. Lewis put a wild lion that
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01:09:59,445 --> 01:10:02,865
cannot be tamed with our little interpretations
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01:10:02,990 --> 01:10:05,534
and trying to put a God into this one little box.
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01:10:05,784 --> 01:10:07,703
He cracks out of that and
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01:10:07,703 --> 01:10:08,579
he gives us this beautiful
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01:10:08,746 --> 01:10:11,874
analogy and it's a mixed metaphor. It's,
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01:10:11,874 --> 01:10:12,666
it's more than what I-
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01:10:12,666 --> 01:10:13,751
not a mix, but
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01:10:13,751 --> 01:10:16,003
it's a multiple metaphor that goes to different
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01:10:16,003 --> 01:10:18,672
things. Curious, how does that
Speaker:
01:10:18,672 --> 01:10:20,591
affect Origen's view of salvation in the same
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01:10:20,591 --> 01:10:21,759
commentary he goes on,
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01:11:04,343 --> 01:11:07,012
And he goes on to explain, well, where do you see
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01:11:07,012 --> 01:11:08,764
this? And he goes on to explain that the thief on
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01:11:08,764 --> 01:11:11,266
the cross. He explains that the woman caught in
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01:11:11,266 --> 01:11:13,936
adultery. They were immediately forgiven. Now,
Speaker:
01:11:14,311 --> 01:11:15,396
in your mind, you're thinking, okay, this is
Speaker:
01:11:15,396 --> 01:11:16,605
totally different than what
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01:11:16,605 --> 01:11:17,523
David Bercot is saying.
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01:11:17,731 --> 01:11:19,984
Not necessarily. David, if you read in his
Speaker:
01:11:19,984 --> 01:11:22,152
commentary, reads it very clearly that at the
Speaker:
01:11:22,152 --> 01:11:25,781
beginning, it's completely this way that Jesus
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01:11:25,781 --> 01:11:26,949
sees us as a sinner and
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01:11:26,949 --> 01:11:28,909
saves us. And so it's not,
Speaker:
01:11:29,368 --> 01:11:31,495
again, there's nuances in here. And even how
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01:11:31,495 --> 01:11:33,372
David Bercot would walk through this
Speaker:
01:11:33,372 --> 01:11:37,334
I think that this is entirely ignored, even in
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01:11:37,334 --> 01:11:39,753
our piety, even in our worship,
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01:11:39,753 --> 01:11:42,589
even the way we come to Christ. I'm worried when
Speaker:
01:11:42,589 --> 01:11:45,092
people are just coming to Christ out of empty,
Speaker:
01:11:45,592 --> 01:11:49,930
not empty, but legalistic terms, not because Christ
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01:11:49,930 --> 01:11:51,932
has saved them. He goes on,
Speaker:
01:13:10,427 --> 01:13:13,180
Wow. Wait,
Speaker:
01:13:13,472 --> 01:13:15,099
are you saying that works doesn't matter? Origen
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01:13:15,099 --> 01:13:16,892
sees the error. And
Speaker:
01:13:16,892 --> 01:13:19,019
notice if your theology doesn't
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01:13:19,394 --> 01:13:22,147
lean towards a need of a correction, like Paul's
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01:13:22,147 --> 01:13:24,775
does, are you saying that we go on sinning that
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01:13:24,775 --> 01:13:26,944
grace much more abounds? And Paul says, no, no,
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01:13:26,944 --> 01:13:29,571
no, no, we must live righteous lives.
Speaker:
01:13:30,197 --> 01:13:32,533
Origen sees the same problem. I argue that your
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01:13:32,533 --> 01:13:36,078
theology of your salvation should lean towards
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01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:38,580
grace that needs this balance. And Origen says,
Speaker:
01:14:08,026 --> 01:14:11,738
According to Origen. Oh, so, okay. Yeah. So the
Speaker:
01:14:11,738 --> 01:14:15,492
point is here. Is there any sense of what
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01:14:15,534 --> 01:14:19,121
later people are saying you can go on sinning and
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01:14:19,121 --> 01:14:23,000
no, that's not in Origen. That's not in Origen,
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01:14:23,458 --> 01:14:25,460
that you can't lose your salvation, not in
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01:14:25,460 --> 01:14:27,504
Origen, obviously, um, that
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01:14:27,504 --> 01:14:28,505
they never were saved. That's
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01:14:28,505 --> 01:14:30,174
not what he's saying. He's saying you've lost
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01:14:30,174 --> 01:14:32,759
that. And so don't turn
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01:14:32,759 --> 01:14:34,344
this into the, as you go down
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01:14:34,344 --> 01:14:37,181
your silos into the centuries. Um, that's not
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01:14:37,181 --> 01:14:38,765
what Origen is saying, but
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01:14:38,765 --> 01:14:40,559
what is he saying that should
Speaker:
01:14:40,684 --> 01:14:43,812
turn us into something that's, it's very
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01:14:43,812 --> 01:14:47,983
powerful. So anyway, that's Origen. Wow. So I got
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01:14:47,983 --> 01:14:50,402
two more biggies that you see this in Chrysostom
Speaker:
01:14:50,402 --> 01:14:51,153
but yeah. All
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01:14:51,153 --> 01:14:52,738
right. No, go for it. No, any
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01:14:52,738 --> 01:14:57,659
thoughts on it? Of course you do. Yeah, it's just a lot. Like it
Speaker:
01:14:57,659 --> 01:14:59,244
feels like I'd need to grab- I
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01:14:59,244 --> 01:15:00,579
haven't read his commentary
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01:15:00,579 --> 01:15:03,123
on Romans. That seems like that would be
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01:15:03,123 --> 01:15:06,168
worth doing. Yeah. Like kind of, it's like, yeah,
Speaker:
01:15:06,168 --> 01:15:06,919
I'm still trying to get my head around it. And
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01:15:06,919 --> 01:15:08,253
again, I don't agree with every word he says for
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01:15:08,337 --> 01:15:12,466
sure. Um, but wow, please don't tell me that
Speaker:
01:15:12,466 --> 01:15:14,635
these things were invented in the
Speaker:
01:15:15,010 --> 01:15:17,095
it's not like I'm- If I would quote those
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01:15:17,095 --> 01:15:18,597
quotes and I was to have
Speaker:
01:15:18,597 --> 01:15:20,682
here, you know, who say it?
Speaker:
01:15:21,099 --> 01:15:24,645
Luther, Calvin, Augustine. Well, yeah, that's kind of what
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01:15:24,645 --> 01:15:25,854
my head is saying
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01:15:25,854 --> 01:15:26,772
is like, that does sound
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01:15:26,772 --> 01:15:28,315
kind of like, yeah, like Luther. What do you
Speaker:
01:15:28,315 --> 01:15:29,399
think Luther, Calvin and
Speaker:
01:15:29,399 --> 01:15:32,402
we're reading, Origen. Okay. And
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01:15:32,444 --> 01:15:35,614
so, I don't agree with where a
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01:15:35,614 --> 01:15:36,949
Calvin and Augustine
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01:15:36,949 --> 01:15:39,993
takes this. So in the ancient,
Speaker:
01:15:40,244 --> 01:15:43,121
there's these gems though, that makes us own the
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01:15:43,121 --> 01:15:45,624
nuance. And that's the biggest argument that I'm
Speaker:
01:15:45,624 --> 01:15:47,626
trying to say through this, this idea of
Speaker:
01:15:47,626 --> 01:15:49,294
atonement and salvation. Own
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01:15:49,294 --> 01:15:50,629
the nuance. Own the nuance. It's
Speaker:
01:15:50,671 --> 01:15:53,548
powerful. Okay. Um, all right. Let's go to
Speaker:
01:15:53,548 --> 01:15:56,176
Eusebius. Eusebius now is a very obviously,
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01:15:56,176 --> 01:15:58,428
renowned speaker. He's the great historian.
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01:15:58,637 --> 01:16:00,889
He lived in both the persecution era. And then
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01:16:00,889 --> 01:16:03,600
he said, and then he was infatuated with
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01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:06,478
Constantine and into the next era. And he wrote
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01:16:06,478 --> 01:16:10,065
a book called The Preparation of the Gospel
Speaker:
01:16:10,065 --> 01:16:11,984
and the Demonstration of the Gospel, which he
Speaker:
01:16:11,984 --> 01:16:14,528
explains the gospel. So why aren't we looking at
Speaker:
01:16:14,528 --> 01:16:16,863
that? And when someone in the patristics are
Speaker:
01:16:16,863 --> 01:16:20,075
actually saying this is the gospel and
Speaker:
01:16:20,075 --> 01:16:21,159
there's some pretty strong
Speaker:
01:16:21,159 --> 01:16:22,744
words, but what you really see
Speaker:
01:16:22,911 --> 01:16:28,292
in Eusebius, he's the best at explaining
Speaker:
01:16:28,292 --> 01:16:29,626
the multiple metaphors.
Speaker:
01:16:30,002 --> 01:16:31,545
It's a big book that- these
Speaker:
01:16:31,545 --> 01:16:33,839
books are big. And as you work through them, you
Speaker:
01:16:33,839 --> 01:16:36,633
see, that's Christus Victor, Oh, that sounds like, uh,
Speaker:
01:16:36,633 --> 01:16:39,136
recapitulation from Irenaeus. That
Speaker:
01:16:39,136 --> 01:16:41,221
sounds like ransom. That sounds like Christus-, you
Speaker:
01:16:41,221 --> 01:16:44,641
know. And you see it coming out of Eusebius, but
Speaker:
01:16:44,641 --> 01:16:46,977
you do see as part of that, his ones on penal
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01:16:46,977 --> 01:16:49,938
substitution. So let's see. And speaking on
Speaker:
01:16:49,938 --> 01:16:51,898
Isaiah 53, this is Proof
Speaker:
01:16:51,898 --> 01:16:52,816
of the Gospel Book 3,
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01:17:25,974 --> 01:17:29,561
All right. Later on, uh, paid for
Speaker:
01:17:29,561 --> 01:17:32,189
our sins. Um, Proof of the Gospel Book 10,
Speaker:
01:18:14,898 --> 01:18:20,904
Wow, Eusebius, all right. We have now, and you can
Speaker:
01:18:20,904 --> 01:18:23,073
go get it. I suggest everybody go get it. The
Speaker:
01:18:23,073 --> 01:18:25,450
Commentary on the Book of Isaiah by Eusebius
Speaker:
01:18:25,951 --> 01:18:30,956
unbelievably not translated into 2010. Whoa. So
Speaker:
01:18:30,956 --> 01:18:33,250
all the time that these people were, uh,
Speaker:
01:18:33,250 --> 01:18:35,293
looking through every time there's those and all
Speaker:
01:18:35,293 --> 01:18:37,504
of us in the early, we didn't even have Eusebius'
Speaker:
01:18:37,546 --> 01:18:39,381
Commentary on the Book of Isaiah. And it's
Speaker:
01:18:39,381 --> 01:18:43,260
interesting because we believe that Eusebius
Speaker:
01:18:43,301 --> 01:18:45,595
had Origen's commentary, The Book of Isaiah, which
Speaker:
01:18:45,595 --> 01:18:49,307
we no longer have, um, right there on his shelf
Speaker:
01:18:49,391 --> 01:18:52,602
when he's doing his. So it unlocks
Speaker:
01:18:52,602 --> 01:18:54,980
the patristics in many ways. Interesting. Um,
Speaker:
01:18:55,397 --> 01:18:57,149
the commentary here in the ancient
Speaker:
01:18:57,149 --> 01:18:59,276
Christian texts
Speaker:
01:19:10,912 --> 01:19:14,332
and never been translated. And
Speaker:
01:19:14,332 --> 01:19:16,585
going to his previous quote, he's using a lot
Speaker:
01:19:16,585 --> 01:19:18,920
of language from Isaiah 53 and that had come
Speaker:
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:20,505
up in some other things you were quoting earlier.
Speaker:
01:19:20,755 --> 01:19:21,548
So like this is a
Speaker:
01:19:21,548 --> 01:19:22,549
significant... But now we can open
Speaker:
01:19:22,549 --> 01:19:24,509
up and see what he says. Yeah, exactly. So let's
Speaker:
01:19:24,509 --> 01:19:26,511
turn Isaiah 53 and see what he has to say.
Speaker:
01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:28,240
So here, okay, to give a little bit of
Speaker:
01:20:28,281 --> 01:20:31,826
this quote. He's one of the first people who has
Speaker:
01:20:31,826 --> 01:20:34,246
all these different, he's a true historical
Speaker:
01:20:34,246 --> 01:20:36,581
theologian and he has all these documents and
Speaker:
01:20:36,581 --> 01:20:37,666
you're going to hear me talk about
Speaker:
01:20:38,583 --> 01:20:41,962
Symmachus and different Greek manuscripts of the
Speaker:
01:20:41,962 --> 01:20:43,547
Isaiah. So people say, what about the Septuagint?
Speaker:
01:20:43,547 --> 01:20:45,048
What about the Masoretic? He had all these before
Speaker:
01:20:45,048 --> 01:20:47,551
us. And even with that, he's making these
Speaker:
01:20:47,551 --> 01:20:49,261
arguments for the atonement in this way.
Speaker:
01:21:39,811 --> 01:21:43,815
And then my favorite, I saved it for the
Speaker:
01:21:43,815 --> 01:21:45,233
last of Eusebius, and we'll finish with
Speaker:
01:21:45,233 --> 01:21:47,068
Chrysostom, the most
Speaker:
01:21:47,068 --> 01:21:48,320
beautiful passage that brings
Speaker:
01:21:48,361 --> 01:21:50,822
the multi images. Again, I'm not arguing for
Speaker:
01:21:50,822 --> 01:21:53,408
Christus Victor only I'm not arguing for
Speaker:
01:21:53,408 --> 01:21:55,827
penal substitutionary only. Listen to this. This
Speaker:
01:21:55,827 --> 01:21:57,454
is from the Proof of the Gospel Book 4.
Speaker:
01:21:58,788 --> 01:22:00,957
So why did Jesus come to earth? You know, the
Speaker:
01:22:00,957 --> 01:22:02,500
big, why did God become man?
Speaker:
01:22:38,244 --> 01:22:42,248
Christus Victor. Isn't that beautiful? Now that is
Speaker:
01:22:42,248 --> 01:22:44,793
something. That's beautiful. And when we allow
Speaker:
01:22:44,793 --> 01:22:47,671
ourselves to get siloed on this subject,
Speaker:
01:22:48,546 --> 01:22:50,924
you're killing- your
Speaker:
01:22:50,924 --> 01:22:52,050
stripping yourself
Speaker:
01:22:52,050 --> 01:22:53,468
into a kind of reductionism
Speaker:
01:22:54,094 --> 01:22:57,222
I believe affects your piety. I believe it
Speaker:
01:22:57,222 --> 01:22:58,765
affects the way you pray to
Speaker:
01:22:58,765 --> 01:23:00,392
God. I believe it affects the
Speaker:
01:23:00,433 --> 01:23:04,062
way you, I think it can, even the way you come to
Speaker:
01:23:04,062 --> 01:23:07,691
God and your salvation. It's own all of
Speaker:
01:23:07,691 --> 01:23:10,694
that and the way you see just gives it to us. All
Speaker:
01:23:10,694 --> 01:23:12,987
right. Finally, we'll end with the champion of
Speaker:
01:23:13,238 --> 01:23:17,784
Greek theology, Chrysostom. Many people say,
Speaker:
01:23:17,784 --> 01:23:19,244
well, they, the Orthodox view of the atonement
Speaker:
01:23:19,369 --> 01:23:21,996
and this kind of a thing. Yes. That was one of
Speaker:
01:23:21,996 --> 01:23:22,789
the things that I'm sure
Speaker:
01:23:22,789 --> 01:23:24,082
the comments are lining up.
Speaker:
01:23:24,332 --> 01:23:28,294
The Eastern Orthodox Church, for example, we
Speaker:
01:23:28,294 --> 01:23:30,213
would probably use a lot of
Speaker:
01:23:30,213 --> 01:23:31,131
this stuff, would they not?
Speaker:
01:23:32,048 --> 01:23:33,925
It's interesting. So over the last 30 years, as
Speaker:
01:23:33,925 --> 01:23:35,260
I've been looking at this, you know,
Speaker:
01:23:36,261 --> 01:23:38,930
all of this has matured including in
Speaker:
01:23:38,930 --> 01:23:41,683
the Orthodox world. You, unfortunately,
Speaker:
01:23:41,683 --> 01:23:47,105
Orthodox theology is just filled with a apologist
Speaker:
01:23:47,105 --> 01:23:49,858
on the internet. It's very difficult to find an
Speaker:
01:23:49,858 --> 01:23:52,152
honest, okay, I'll be careful. It's very
Speaker:
01:23:52,152 --> 01:23:54,946
difficult to find an
Speaker:
01:23:54,946 --> 01:23:57,949
honest scholar in when you're going
Speaker:
01:23:57,949 --> 01:23:59,701
through apologists and any of us, if I'm going to
Speaker:
01:23:59,701 --> 01:24:00,410
be an Anabaptist
Speaker:
01:24:00,410 --> 01:24:02,245
apologist and I'm saying we're the
Speaker:
01:24:02,245 --> 01:24:04,038
one true church and that's it, you know, I'm
Speaker:
01:24:04,038 --> 01:24:05,290
going to
Speaker:
01:24:05,290 --> 01:24:06,958
present, I'm going to lack a nuance
Speaker:
01:24:06,958 --> 01:24:09,461
and I, and one of my biggest, you know, problems
Speaker:
01:24:09,461 --> 01:24:11,629
with that is just, it's not really catholic. It's
Speaker:
01:24:11,629 --> 01:24:14,841
not, it's not really owning the church as we've
Speaker:
01:24:14,841 --> 01:24:16,843
received it from the apostles in a broader way.
Speaker:
01:24:17,260 --> 01:24:22,140
And so I have noticed that the future, now you're
Speaker:
01:24:22,140 --> 01:24:25,226
finding Orthodox scholars who like, well,
Speaker:
01:24:25,643 --> 01:24:28,730
I don't know, especially when they hear
Speaker:
01:24:28,730 --> 01:24:30,106
Chrysostom. It's hard to be a
Speaker:
01:24:30,106 --> 01:24:31,399
self-respecting Greek Orthodox
Speaker:
01:24:32,025 --> 01:24:36,988
and just Chrysostom. You can't, you can't. Okay.
Speaker:
01:24:38,406 --> 01:24:41,326
So in his homily, based on 2 Corinthians,
Speaker:
01:24:41,326 --> 01:24:43,953
chapter five, the verse, which is of course one
Speaker:
01:24:43,953 --> 01:24:44,621
of the most powerful
Speaker:
01:24:44,621 --> 01:24:46,956
penal substitutionary verses,
Speaker:
01:24:55,465 --> 01:24:57,467
And I don't know if you've ever listened
Speaker:
01:24:57,467 --> 01:25:01,221
to a Christus Victor only guy squeeze out of
Speaker:
01:25:01,221 --> 01:25:04,682
that verse. It's kind of funny. So I'm trying to
Speaker:
01:25:04,682 --> 01:25:05,600
think of one, oh, it's
Speaker:
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:06,476
kind of like the righteousness
Speaker:
01:25:06,476 --> 01:25:08,770
of God, the kingdom's coming forth and
Speaker:
01:25:08,770 --> 01:25:09,604
there's a way to explain
Speaker:
01:25:09,604 --> 01:25:10,897
around of it, you know, and you're
Speaker:
01:25:10,939 --> 01:25:14,484
like, okay, and I'm only believing this because
Speaker:
01:25:14,484 --> 01:25:17,403
I'm messed up because I read Luther, you know,
Speaker:
01:25:17,403 --> 01:25:19,906
is the idea. What's the plain language
Speaker:
01:25:19,906 --> 01:25:24,244
there? "For he made him" God, "made him who knew
Speaker:
01:25:24,244 --> 01:25:28,206
no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the
Speaker:
01:25:28,206 --> 01:25:30,625
righteousness of God in him." So let's go to
Speaker:
01:25:30,625 --> 01:25:32,919
Chrysostom. And so he's writing a
Speaker:
01:25:32,919 --> 01:25:35,046
commentary on that chapter. Exactly. So at
Speaker:
01:25:35,088 --> 01:25:38,383
Chrysostom we have beautiful sermons of his and
Speaker:
01:25:38,383 --> 01:25:41,094
you'll see this is not, you'll see how, how it
Speaker:
01:25:41,094 --> 01:25:44,264
reads. It doesn't read like an apologetic or
Speaker:
01:25:44,264 --> 01:25:47,267
an article or
Speaker:
01:25:47,267 --> 01:25:49,102
something. It reads like a sermon.
Speaker:
01:25:49,102 --> 01:25:51,312
He's preaching. You can hear Chrysostom preaching
Speaker:
01:25:51,312 --> 01:25:53,523
this and it's [a] good sermon.
Speaker:
01:25:53,898 --> 01:25:54,816
And I want to go
Speaker:
01:25:54,816 --> 01:25:57,026
stand in the middle of the Hagia Sophia and
Speaker:
01:25:57,068 --> 01:25:59,612
preach this and get thrown out of
Speaker:
01:25:59,654 --> 01:26:02,574
Turkey. But, because that's where he would have
Speaker:
01:26:02,574 --> 01:26:05,034
lived, right? Yeah. In that area. Exactly. Right
Speaker:
01:26:05,034 --> 01:26:07,537
there. And before the current Hagia Sophia.
Speaker:
01:26:07,954 --> 01:26:08,955
So we're preaching now,
Speaker:
01:26:08,955 --> 01:26:10,331
right? Okay
Speaker:
01:28:27,260 --> 01:28:29,137
And then it keeps building it up and building it up preaching.
Speaker:
01:30:04,982 --> 01:30:06,984
And then finally, one of the
Speaker:
01:30:06,984 --> 01:30:08,069
most controversial things
Speaker:
01:30:08,069 --> 01:30:10,988
in PSA versus Christus Victor is the whole penal
Speaker:
01:30:10,988 --> 01:30:15,910
case, the courtroom scene. And he finishes his
Speaker:
01:30:15,910 --> 01:30:17,453
point with this.
Speaker:
01:30:46,899 --> 01:30:50,653
Whoa, I didn't expect that.
Speaker:
01:30:51,070 --> 01:30:56,909
Now, when you read the fathers, as you did with
Speaker:
01:30:56,909 --> 01:30:58,578
Origen, as you did with Clement of Rome,
Speaker:
01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:02,039
Clement of Rome goes on to explaining about how
Speaker:
01:31:02,039 --> 01:31:04,125
we have to live a righteous life. Origen says the
Speaker:
01:31:04,125 --> 01:31:05,585
same thing, Tertullian says the same thing, they
Speaker:
01:31:05,585 --> 01:31:09,505
all say the same thing. In the patristic mind,
Speaker:
01:31:10,798 --> 01:31:15,344
this truth should convict you to righteousness.
Speaker:
01:31:16,262 --> 01:31:18,389
He finishes his point with this.
Speaker:
01:31:38,618 --> 01:31:40,745
So the idea that
Speaker:
01:31:40,745 --> 01:31:42,246
we can go on sinning because we
Speaker:
01:31:42,246 --> 01:31:44,874
have this license of sin is not known in the
Speaker:
01:31:44,874 --> 01:31:46,626
patristic writings, but
Speaker:
01:31:47,543 --> 01:31:52,089
as we see these things are beautiful and they're
Speaker:
01:31:52,089 --> 01:31:53,382
part of it. I have a picture here,
Speaker:
01:31:53,382 --> 01:31:56,052
you can see it on the internet, maybe we'll find.
Speaker:
01:31:56,636 --> 01:31:58,596
It's the way you take like a little cylinder
Speaker:
01:31:58,596 --> 01:32:02,225
and you can shine a light on it and it looks like
Speaker:
01:32:02,225 --> 01:32:04,185
a square and you shine a different light
Speaker:
01:32:04,185 --> 01:32:06,854
over here and it looks like a circle. And they
Speaker:
01:32:06,854 --> 01:32:12,235
both give us an analogy of what, and you can get
Speaker:
01:32:12,276 --> 01:32:14,445
into a camp, oh, it's a circle. No, it's a
Speaker:
01:32:14,445 --> 01:32:18,115
square. But if we get into those kinds of silos,
Speaker:
01:32:18,115 --> 01:32:20,952
you're somehow missing the truth of what's really
Speaker:
01:32:20,952 --> 01:32:24,038
underneath it. My biggest fear that when we get
Speaker:
01:32:24,038 --> 01:32:26,165
into silos of penal substitutionary atonement
Speaker:
01:32:26,165 --> 01:32:28,709
only, or if we get into the silos of Christus
Speaker:
01:32:28,709 --> 01:32:31,295
Victor only or any of the other analogies, you
Speaker:
01:32:31,295 --> 01:32:33,089
are not seeing the faith that was once
Speaker:
01:32:33,089 --> 01:32:35,549
for all delivered to the saints. Very clearly,
Speaker:
01:32:36,050 --> 01:32:39,220
very clearly, we can see they may be wrong,
Speaker:
01:32:40,179 --> 01:32:43,724
but these nuances are in the patristic writings.
Speaker:
01:32:44,475 --> 01:32:47,687
And to ignore that is to somehow not to get a
Speaker:
01:32:47,687 --> 01:32:49,897
view. And as a historical theologian, I'm saying,
Speaker:
01:32:50,523 --> 01:32:53,317
I think there's something in all of these views
Speaker:
01:32:53,484 --> 01:32:57,905
of the atonement that we need to go to. So I'll
Speaker:
01:32:57,905 --> 01:32:59,323
finish then and we can open it up to your
Speaker:
01:32:59,323 --> 01:33:02,159
early thoughts to Eusebius's point. I love his
Speaker:
01:33:02,159 --> 01:33:05,538
quote again.
Speaker:
01:33:31,856 --> 01:33:34,984
And that's the patristic witness
Speaker:
01:33:35,318 --> 01:33:41,365
of the atonement. So in your view then, how do
Speaker:
01:33:41,365 --> 01:33:44,160
you put these two
Speaker:
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:45,619
together, the Christus Victor and
Speaker:
01:33:45,619 --> 01:33:49,540
the penal substitution? Do you have a way of
Speaker:
01:33:49,540 --> 01:33:51,208
bringing these together or is this just saying
Speaker:
01:33:51,208 --> 01:33:53,044
this is part of the mystery of the atonement?
Speaker:
01:33:54,003 --> 01:33:55,629
Yeah, talk to me about that. So the problem is,
Speaker:
01:33:55,629 --> 01:33:58,257
I don't think that you can give a sacrifice to
Speaker:
01:33:58,257 --> 01:34:00,885
Satan. Well, that was one of the questions here.
Speaker:
01:34:01,844 --> 01:34:08,559
And even in the Nicene period, Gregory of Nazianzus
Speaker:
01:34:08,559 --> 01:34:10,728
argued that no, no, no, it's a
Speaker:
01:34:10,728 --> 01:34:14,523
ransom to God, the Father. Gregory of Nyssa argued
Speaker:
01:34:14,523 --> 01:34:19,028
it's a ransom to Satan. I don't think you can go
Speaker:
01:34:19,070 --> 01:34:22,948
there, but with the ransom to the Father, it fits
Speaker:
01:34:22,948 --> 01:34:26,118
fine within the other themes. And the Christus
Speaker:
01:34:26,202 --> 01:34:30,414
Victor is the overarching theme that, I mean, you
Speaker:
01:34:30,414 --> 01:34:31,749
see, Eusebius has no problem putting those
Speaker:
01:34:31,749 --> 01:34:35,002
together. Christ died on the cross. How does he
Speaker:
01:34:35,002 --> 01:34:37,880
bring about this kingdom? Not by paying something
Speaker:
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:41,342
to Satan, but all of this, remember,
Speaker:
01:34:41,342 --> 01:34:44,136
we're believing in a Trinity that works with one
Speaker:
01:34:44,136 --> 01:34:48,057
divine will. It's not cosmic sacrifices or me
Speaker:
01:34:48,057 --> 01:34:50,017
having to go grab somebody, you're just going to
Speaker:
01:34:50,017 --> 01:34:52,603
go grab somebody and have him pay for a sin. No,
Speaker:
01:34:52,603 --> 01:34:55,439
it's God working in Trinity and the most precious
Speaker:
01:34:55,481 --> 01:34:57,733
thing that we have, the redemption of our souls
Speaker:
01:34:57,733 --> 01:35:00,319
to salvation. And so all
Speaker:
01:35:00,319 --> 01:35:02,279
of this works in the divine
Speaker:
01:35:02,363 --> 01:35:08,035
way of God, saving humanity, becoming man, using
Speaker:
01:35:08,035 --> 01:35:11,122
the cross to do that, using that cross to defeat
Speaker:
01:35:11,163 --> 01:35:14,500
Satan and to the resurrection and allowing his
Speaker:
01:35:14,500 --> 01:35:16,836
kingdom to be placed on this earth. And we're
Speaker:
01:35:16,836 --> 01:35:19,130
alive and we're putting the kingdom teachings on
Speaker:
01:35:19,130 --> 01:35:20,965
earth and we're glorifying Christ and we're
Speaker:
01:35:20,965 --> 01:35:23,634
establishing his kingdom all through the shed
Speaker:
01:35:23,634 --> 01:35:25,678
blood of Jesus Christ and
Speaker:
01:35:25,678 --> 01:35:26,929
his sacrifice of himself
Speaker:
01:35:26,929 --> 01:35:32,184
on the cross. Belittling it with these things
Speaker:
01:35:32,184 --> 01:35:34,395
like cosmic, it's why I prayed at the beginning,
Speaker:
01:35:34,645 --> 01:35:38,482
you get into these conversations and you hear how
Speaker:
01:35:38,482 --> 01:35:42,027
Chrysostom took this. You
Speaker:
01:35:42,027 --> 01:35:43,362
can't read that and just
Speaker:
01:35:43,404 --> 01:35:47,825
stay academic. It's meaningful. It's the blood of
Speaker:
01:35:47,825 --> 01:35:51,579
Jesus Christ. It's mysteries that are deep and
Speaker:
01:35:51,871 --> 01:35:55,791
in that becoming like Christ, becoming like God
Speaker:
01:35:55,791 --> 01:36:00,379
is all of their teachings as well. But wow,
Speaker:
01:36:00,921 --> 01:36:05,092
why would you miss out on all of those beautiful
Speaker:
01:36:05,092 --> 01:36:06,635
metaphors of the blood of Jesus?
Speaker:
01:36:07,636 --> 01:36:11,557
I think even in salvation and my journey in
Speaker:
01:36:11,557 --> 01:36:15,352
Anabaptism, I've seen an interesting shift.
Speaker:
01:36:16,270 --> 01:36:18,397
In my original churches that I was a part of, not
Speaker:
01:36:18,397 --> 01:36:20,441
David's, but in Pennsylvania,
Speaker:
01:36:21,859 --> 01:36:25,404
the pendulum was swung so far over to revivalism
Speaker:
01:36:25,404 --> 01:36:29,074
and such that unless you had a crisis conversion
Speaker:
01:36:30,117 --> 01:36:34,788
like this, then we were re-baptizing everybody
Speaker:
01:36:34,788 --> 01:36:36,207
because they didn't have quite the crisis
Speaker:
01:36:36,207 --> 01:36:39,210
conversion of Christ speaking and breaking their
Speaker:
01:36:39,210 --> 01:36:42,421
heart. Acts 2:36, going into 2:38, does very
Speaker:
01:36:42,421 --> 01:36:44,256
clear, at least said, "When Peter was preaching
Speaker:
01:36:44,256 --> 01:36:45,799
under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit at
Speaker:
01:36:45,799 --> 01:36:49,011
Pentecost, they were pricked to the heart. There
Speaker:
01:36:49,011 --> 01:36:50,763
was a work of God by
Speaker:
01:36:50,763 --> 01:36:52,765
faith acting upon the sinner.
Speaker:
01:36:53,307 --> 01:36:55,518
Then they cried out, what shall we do? And then
Speaker:
01:36:55,518 --> 01:36:57,770
they were baptized for the forgiveness of their
Speaker:
01:36:57,811 --> 01:37:00,564
sins." And this all working together by these
Speaker:
01:37:00,564 --> 01:37:03,025
different actions of faith were coming out.
Speaker:
01:37:03,484 --> 01:37:06,362
So we were really emphasizing this crisis of the
Speaker:
01:37:06,362 --> 01:37:09,031
pricked to your heart part. Now it's almost like
Speaker:
01:37:09,323 --> 01:37:11,325
the pendulum has swung over to almost like an old
Speaker:
01:37:11,325 --> 01:37:15,120
order salvation that you've got. "Okay,
Speaker:
01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:16,288
you're just going to be obedient. You're going to
Speaker:
01:37:16,288 --> 01:37:17,498
follow the teachings of Christ,
Speaker:
01:37:17,498 --> 01:37:18,916
and we're going to put the teachings of Christ on
Speaker:
01:37:18,916 --> 01:37:21,335
earth." And I don't know. There's something
Speaker:
01:37:21,335 --> 01:37:23,170
in the preaching. There's something in the
Speaker:
01:37:23,170 --> 01:37:24,713
singing. There's something in the worship
Speaker:
01:37:25,631 --> 01:37:31,887
that's missing this mystery of God saving the
Speaker:
01:37:31,887 --> 01:37:35,307
sinner, that when you were in your sin,
Speaker:
01:37:35,891 --> 01:37:38,394
Christ died for the ungodly. And that that
Speaker:
01:37:38,394 --> 01:37:40,688
gratitude that we have to God's grace and
Speaker:
01:37:40,688 --> 01:37:43,732
his salvation of my soul and that type of thing
Speaker:
01:37:43,732 --> 01:37:47,987
is somehow becoming less and less preached from
Speaker:
01:37:47,987 --> 01:37:50,864
the pulpit. And I wonder, in my opinion, is it
Speaker:
01:37:50,864 --> 01:37:52,866
having something having to do with this pendulum,
Speaker:
01:37:53,075 --> 01:37:54,702
even in this theology, that the problem is
Speaker:
01:37:54,702 --> 01:37:57,746
teaching. The problem is we're death, and we
Speaker:
01:37:57,746 --> 01:37:59,540
just need to be taught in this kind of a thing.
Speaker:
01:37:59,540 --> 01:38:01,542
You hear some Christ's victory people say, not so
Speaker:
01:38:01,542 --> 01:38:06,213
much in our circles, but I think it's a danger. I
Speaker:
01:38:06,213 --> 01:38:08,507
think it affects our worship and it affects our
Speaker:
01:38:08,507 --> 01:38:13,596
piety, and it's not just an academic subject. So
Speaker:
01:38:13,596 --> 01:38:15,639
the one question I have then, what do you see
Speaker:
01:38:15,639 --> 01:38:17,808
as the biggest challenge to penal substitution?
Speaker:
01:38:18,100 --> 01:38:21,687
And then how could others looking through this,
Speaker:
01:38:21,729 --> 01:38:23,397
studied into this, et cetera, come
Speaker:
01:38:23,397 --> 01:38:24,565
to a different conclusion than you?
Speaker:
01:38:25,232 --> 01:38:25,691
Oh, they do.
Speaker:
01:38:26,066 --> 01:38:28,068
Yeah, exactly. But why? Why do
Speaker:
01:38:28,068 --> 01:38:28,736
you think that they would do that?
Speaker:
01:38:28,736 --> 01:38:32,281
I personally think most people rarely...
Speaker:
01:38:35,284 --> 01:38:37,620
The idea of a historical theologian is different
Speaker:
01:38:37,620 --> 01:38:39,955
than a systematic theologian. And so in most
Speaker:
01:38:39,955 --> 01:38:42,249
seminaries and people and on the internets and
Speaker:
01:38:42,249 --> 01:38:46,545
things, you start and you go grab a book on the
Speaker:
01:38:46,545 --> 01:38:47,713
atonement. I'm going to find out the atonement
Speaker:
01:38:47,713 --> 01:38:49,340
and in some guy's perspective on the atonement.
Speaker:
01:38:49,798 --> 01:38:51,550
You get this quote and that quote, and it builds
Speaker:
01:38:51,550 --> 01:38:54,094
these types of things. This happens on a lot of
Speaker:
01:38:54,094 --> 01:38:57,681
subjects. A historical theologian lets the
Speaker:
01:38:57,681 --> 01:38:59,058
sources start from the
Speaker:
01:38:59,058 --> 01:39:01,727
beginning and lets it speak. And
Speaker:
01:39:01,769 --> 01:39:05,814
I believe that in my 30 years of reading the
Speaker:
01:39:05,814 --> 01:39:09,943
patristics, a lot more has been coming out.
Speaker:
01:39:10,653 --> 01:39:13,656
And the access and the ease of... I mean, I was
Speaker:
01:39:13,656 --> 01:39:15,115
just doing something the other day and to be able
Speaker:
01:39:15,157 --> 01:39:19,119
to pop up instantly the Greek text of Justin
Speaker:
01:39:19,119 --> 01:39:21,997
Martyr is on his view of transmutation and the
Speaker:
01:39:21,997 --> 01:39:23,791
communion. And I was doing that for other
Speaker:
01:39:23,791 --> 01:39:24,958
podcasts. And so I was like,
Speaker:
01:39:24,958 --> 01:39:26,085
Instantly, you can... "Oh, yes, there's
Speaker:
01:39:26,085 --> 01:39:27,211
the Greek text. And what about the different
Speaker:
01:39:27,211 --> 01:39:29,505
translations? Oh, yes, here is this." I mean,
Speaker:
01:39:29,505 --> 01:39:34,468
that's crazy. We are in the most incredible time
Speaker:
01:39:34,468 --> 01:39:37,054
for historic Christianity because we're actually
Speaker:
01:39:37,054 --> 01:39:40,432
able to let not the apologists speak, but let the
Speaker:
01:39:40,432 --> 01:39:42,393
patristics speak for themselves. So I think
Speaker:
01:39:43,310 --> 01:39:45,354
that it's just like I saw that I think N.T.
Speaker:
01:39:45,354 --> 01:39:48,273
Wright's an honest scholar. I saw his views
Speaker:
01:39:48,273 --> 01:39:50,651
modified to that. We just said that at the
Speaker:
01:39:50,651 --> 01:39:53,904
beginning. Yeah, it's not either or. You read
Speaker:
01:39:53,904 --> 01:39:55,781
his earlier stuff. It sounds kind of either or.
Speaker:
01:39:55,781 --> 01:39:56,281
He's kind of slamming
Speaker:
01:39:56,281 --> 01:39:57,449
penal substitutionary atonement
Speaker:
01:39:57,449 --> 01:39:59,451
and making it sound like you have to be only
Speaker:
01:39:59,451 --> 01:40:03,330
Christus Victor. I think we're maturing in our
Speaker:
01:40:03,330 --> 01:40:07,000
understanding and the sources being able [available] to us.
Speaker:
01:40:07,418 --> 01:40:10,212
And we're realizing, "Okay, I can accept penal
Speaker:
01:40:10,671 --> 01:40:12,840
substitutionary atonement and it doesn't mean I
Speaker:
01:40:12,840 --> 01:40:16,343
have to be allowing sin or saying I don't have
Speaker:
01:40:16,343 --> 01:40:18,470
to have the baggage of what it came up in the
Speaker:
01:40:18,470 --> 01:40:21,223
1500s. Or I can accept Christus Victor and it
Speaker:
01:40:21,223 --> 01:40:23,392
doesn't have to be woke. It doesn't have to be
Speaker:
01:40:23,392 --> 01:40:25,477
weird." And I am excited
Speaker:
01:40:25,477 --> 01:40:26,437
about the research that's
Speaker:
01:40:26,437 --> 01:40:30,607
just happening recently. And I think it's a good
Speaker:
01:40:30,607 --> 01:40:33,068
thing. So I think that this stuff's coming out
Speaker:
01:40:33,068 --> 01:40:35,112
more and you're going to hear more people own the
Speaker:
01:40:35,112 --> 01:40:38,198
nuanced view. So again, you're coming back
Speaker:
01:40:38,574 --> 01:40:41,034
kind of where we started of saying, "Well,
Speaker:
01:40:41,034 --> 01:40:41,994
they're both right in a
Speaker:
01:40:41,994 --> 01:40:43,579
way, like these two views." And
Speaker:
01:40:43,579 --> 01:40:45,205
then it's what you're advocating for, which,
Speaker:
01:40:45,622 --> 01:40:49,001
okay, I can see that. I also see in the comments,
Speaker:
01:40:49,001 --> 01:40:51,879
both sides will now attack you probably. Go get
Speaker:
01:40:51,879 --> 01:40:56,717
them, guys. So I wonder if that also speaks a bit
Speaker:
01:40:56,717 --> 01:41:00,763
to our culture. I'm totally speculating here, but
Speaker:
01:41:00,763 --> 01:41:01,889
you've mentioned the term
Speaker:
01:41:01,889 --> 01:41:03,056
silos to where it's like,
Speaker:
01:41:03,056 --> 01:41:05,142
you have to kind of choose a camp. You have to
Speaker:
01:41:05,142 --> 01:41:08,145
choose which silo you're going to be in. Again,
Speaker:
01:41:08,604 --> 01:41:10,814
you're saying, "Whoa, let's take a step back and
Speaker:
01:41:10,814 --> 01:41:13,859
say that's not necessarily the case. There's
Speaker:
01:41:13,859 --> 01:41:16,737
mystery here. There's nuance here. And there's
Speaker:
01:41:16,737 --> 01:41:19,156
elements of both. Am I getting this right?"
Speaker:
01:41:19,198 --> 01:41:22,076
Absolutely you are. And I guess the point that I
Speaker:
01:41:22,076 --> 01:41:23,619
really want to... This is
Speaker:
01:41:23,619 --> 01:41:24,870
for most people watching
Speaker:
01:41:24,870 --> 01:41:29,124
is like, "What?" When you start getting into
Speaker:
01:41:29,124 --> 01:41:30,125
these rabbit holes, you
Speaker:
01:41:30,125 --> 01:41:31,376
start to look up these things.
Speaker:
01:41:31,418 --> 01:41:35,964
And so I do want to give a caution. The beauty of
Speaker:
01:41:35,964 --> 01:41:39,718
Anabaptism is that the idea of Christ and His
Speaker:
01:41:39,718 --> 01:41:41,929
Kingdom is brought forth in practical and real
Speaker:
01:41:41,929 --> 01:41:45,682
living ways. What happens is you can hide a lot
Speaker:
01:41:45,682 --> 01:41:50,229
of sin, nations of sin, in some of these rabbit
Speaker:
01:41:50,229 --> 01:41:52,022
holes. And as you pin
Speaker:
01:41:52,022 --> 01:41:53,148
through and you start saying,
Speaker:
01:41:53,440 --> 01:41:56,527
"Oh, this whole strain of thought has this." And
Speaker:
01:41:56,527 --> 01:41:59,196
what David Bercot and I usually argue and other
Speaker:
01:42:00,113 --> 01:42:06,036
patristic guys in that type of way is that you
Speaker:
01:42:06,036 --> 01:42:07,663
have to kind of start from the beginning.
Speaker:
01:42:07,913 --> 01:42:12,459
And so the things that matter most aren't the
Speaker:
01:42:12,459 --> 01:42:17,673
things that matter [in] 1500 or so. When I was in
Speaker:
01:42:17,673 --> 01:42:21,218
seminary, I had to read the thousand pages by
Speaker:
01:42:21,218 --> 01:42:23,846
Michael Horton, 5.2 of Sniff [?] and Calvinists.
Speaker:
01:42:23,846 --> 01:42:28,475
And you know what? I loved it. Of all the one
Speaker:
01:42:28,475 --> 01:42:31,228
that my advisor made me read, I liked it because
Speaker:
01:42:31,478 --> 01:42:33,856
when he spoke, you knew what he was saying. A lot
Speaker:
01:42:33,856 --> 01:42:35,774
of the systematic theology books we had to read
Speaker:
01:42:35,774 --> 01:42:39,194
are like, "What?" But Michael Horton says it, you
Speaker:
01:42:39,194 --> 01:42:41,613
know what he's saying. But it's interesting.
Speaker:
01:42:43,240 --> 01:42:46,285
In his thing, it's funny or not funny, it's kind
Speaker:
01:42:46,285 --> 01:42:48,829
of sad how you build up all this Christology and
Speaker:
01:42:48,996 --> 01:42:51,665
atonement and soteriology and all that. And then
Speaker:
01:42:51,665 --> 01:42:53,125
finally at the end, you try to tack on a little
Speaker:
01:42:53,125 --> 01:42:56,169
bit of the morals of Jesus and the teachings of
Speaker:
01:42:56,169 --> 01:42:58,672
Jesus. The teachings of Christ cannot be
Speaker:
01:42:58,755 --> 01:43:02,342
separated from the Christology and soteriology of
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01:43:02,342 --> 01:43:05,345
Christ. And so it's who he is. He didn't speak
Speaker:
01:43:05,345 --> 01:43:09,057
like you and me like a teacher. His teachings
Speaker:
01:43:09,057 --> 01:43:12,644
come from his very nature. And so if somehow
Speaker:
01:43:13,061 --> 01:43:16,565
we end up with a Christianity that is into the...
Speaker:
01:43:16,565 --> 01:43:18,233
we have the right view of the atonement or we have the
Speaker:
01:43:18,275 --> 01:43:20,777
right this... and somehow are missing the simple
Speaker:
01:43:20,777 --> 01:43:22,988
teachings of Jesus, that God came to earth and
Speaker:
01:43:22,988 --> 01:43:25,657
said, "Guys, this is the blueprint for humanity,
Speaker:
01:43:26,199 --> 01:43:28,285
not getting right the view of atonement and not
Speaker:
01:43:28,285 --> 01:43:31,413
getting right this type of a thing." We've got to
Speaker:
01:43:31,413 --> 01:43:33,832
keep that priority. I don't mind geeking out of
Speaker:
01:43:33,832 --> 01:43:36,043
this. I'll do it all day long with you, but
Speaker:
01:43:36,043 --> 01:43:38,003
please. And this comes
Speaker:
01:43:38,003 --> 01:43:39,212
with many different things.
Speaker:
01:43:39,212 --> 01:43:41,256
Apologists in this day and age on the internet
Speaker:
01:43:41,256 --> 01:43:43,133
rip one way or the other
Speaker:
01:43:43,133 --> 01:43:44,551
on issues and get us into
Speaker:
01:43:44,593 --> 01:43:47,137
these camps. Allow the simplicity because when
Speaker:
01:43:47,137 --> 01:43:50,307
you read... grab the Didache, grab the Clement of Rome,
Speaker:
01:43:50,599 --> 01:43:53,268
grab the earlier church writings, what do they
Speaker:
01:43:53,268 --> 01:43:56,813
find important? Huh, they sound like Jesus. And
Speaker:
01:43:56,813 --> 01:43:58,774
they say that when the teachings of Jesus are
Speaker:
01:43:58,774 --> 01:44:01,026
what's important to be kept and that's what the
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01:44:01,026 --> 01:44:03,445
church should look like. And so anyway, those are
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01:44:03,445 --> 01:44:05,238
the type of things. So in these other areas,
Speaker:
01:44:05,238 --> 01:44:08,533
I don't have to have a dogmatic view on the
Speaker:
01:44:08,533 --> 01:44:09,993
millennial reign or I don't have to have a
Speaker:
01:44:10,035 --> 01:44:12,245
dogmatic view on... Sorry, well, there's another
Speaker:
01:44:12,245 --> 01:44:14,456
whole video. Oh boy. I don't have to have one
Speaker:
01:44:14,456 --> 01:44:19,753
on spelling this out in some particular silo. I
Speaker:
01:44:19,753 --> 01:44:22,673
can enjoy the conversations of the Christus
Speaker:
01:44:22,673 --> 01:44:25,592
Victor guys and the penal substitutionary guys.
Speaker:
01:44:26,009 --> 01:44:27,427
And so yeah, I can see that in Clement of Rome.
Speaker:
01:44:27,427 --> 01:44:30,013
I can see a little bit of that in Origen. Okay,
Speaker:
01:44:30,222 --> 01:44:31,682
but that's going to be controversial
Speaker:
01:44:31,723 --> 01:44:34,059
because, well, obviously, because there's going
Speaker:
01:44:34,059 --> 01:44:36,478
to be people that say, well, okay, there's one
Speaker:
01:44:36,520 --> 01:44:41,483
example I saw of a particular writer who was very
Speaker:
01:44:41,483 --> 01:44:44,945
strong on penal substitution. And he laid out
Speaker:
01:44:44,945 --> 01:44:46,697
this big case and wrote all these articles and
Speaker:
01:44:46,697 --> 01:44:47,531
blah, blah, blah, and this
Speaker:
01:44:47,531 --> 01:44:48,615
is the way it needs to be.
Speaker:
01:44:49,366 --> 01:44:51,118
And towards the end of that, basically said, if
Speaker:
01:44:51,118 --> 01:44:53,578
you have a teacher in your church that does not
Speaker:
01:44:53,578 --> 01:44:55,789
teach what I have described here, they should not
Speaker:
01:44:55,789 --> 01:44:58,000
be allowed to speak in church. And I was like,
Speaker:
01:44:58,000 --> 01:45:00,502
well, that seems a little strong because you're
Speaker:
01:45:00,502 --> 01:45:02,504
assuming your interpretation is totally right.
Speaker:
01:45:03,130 --> 01:45:06,008
Are you pushing back on that kind of... I am now-
Speaker:
01:45:06,008 --> 01:45:07,968
It's like, if you don't have this exact view,
Speaker:
01:45:08,427 --> 01:45:11,471
then therefore you're not in our camp kind of
Speaker:
01:45:11,471 --> 01:45:13,098
thing. Yeah, I think that's wrong. Almost like
Speaker:
01:45:13,098 --> 01:45:14,975
tribalism. It is tribalism. And I think it's
Speaker:
01:45:14,975 --> 01:45:17,352
wrong. However, one of my
Speaker:
01:45:17,352 --> 01:45:18,895
hopes is to try to redeem
Speaker:
01:45:19,396 --> 01:45:23,150
and to rescue the kingdom camp. Okay. Okay. Well,
Speaker:
01:45:23,150 --> 01:45:25,193
will you talk to me about that? I am serious because
Speaker:
01:45:26,445 --> 01:45:29,948
so much of this is ran by a Neo Anabaptist and it
Speaker:
01:45:29,948 --> 01:45:32,993
gets woke, it gets weird. And usually it's kind
Speaker:
01:45:32,993 --> 01:45:35,203
of like a leaven. Next thing you know what, you're
Speaker:
01:45:35,203 --> 01:45:38,874
reading all these things and I have seen, and
Speaker:
01:45:38,999 --> 01:45:41,835
this is now putting on my pastoral hat, I have
Speaker:
01:45:41,835 --> 01:45:43,837
seen a baggage that has
Speaker:
01:45:43,837 --> 01:45:45,547
come with it that concerns me
Speaker:
01:45:45,547 --> 01:45:49,301
a lot. And so I get his cry. I think it's too
Speaker:
01:45:49,301 --> 01:45:51,720
far. We need to own it for
Speaker:
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:53,513
what it is. And we have to
Speaker:
01:45:53,555 --> 01:45:57,267
see that the blueprint for humanity, Jesus Christ
Speaker:
01:45:57,267 --> 01:46:00,103
saving us from evil and putting his kingdom on
Speaker:
01:46:00,103 --> 01:46:02,064
the earth is Christus Victor. That's the victory
Speaker:
01:46:02,064 --> 01:46:07,110
of Christ is the theme. And so that's okay. But
Speaker:
01:46:07,444 --> 01:46:10,322
I understand where he's at because I do think
Speaker:
01:46:10,322 --> 01:46:13,867
usually if you were to take the guys who are,
Speaker:
01:46:13,867 --> 01:46:20,290
"It's Christus Victor only!" Usually there's the
Speaker:
01:46:20,290 --> 01:46:22,250
stuff they're reading, they're not letting
Speaker:
01:46:22,334 --> 01:46:25,087
themselves read the other side. And there's a lot
Speaker:
01:46:25,087 --> 01:46:26,505
that goes along with this and you're like,
Speaker:
01:46:26,505 --> 01:46:28,673
"Have you ever thought of this?" Nope. That's,
Speaker:
01:46:28,673 --> 01:46:30,425
you know, so it could be,
Speaker:
01:46:30,425 --> 01:46:31,927
but this is where the siloing
Speaker:
01:46:31,927 --> 01:46:33,678
can happen really quickly because they say this,
Speaker:
01:46:33,929 --> 01:46:35,847
and I don't know this person at all, but let's
Speaker:
01:46:35,847 --> 01:46:37,891
say they had seen that, you know, and so, "Oh,
Speaker:
01:46:37,891 --> 01:46:38,642
well, we don't want that.
Speaker:
01:46:38,934 --> 01:46:39,935
So we'll go over here." And
Speaker:
01:46:39,935 --> 01:46:41,770
then pretty quick now you just have, you're in
Speaker:
01:46:41,770 --> 01:46:42,729
your two separate silos
Speaker:
01:46:42,729 --> 01:46:44,147
and it's very hard to bridge
Speaker:
01:46:44,147 --> 01:46:46,608
back across. What I'm hearing you say is you
Speaker:
01:46:46,608 --> 01:46:47,567
really care about bridging
Speaker:
01:46:47,567 --> 01:46:48,360
it back across. Yes, I do.
Speaker:
01:46:48,527 --> 01:46:51,113
I think Christus Victor is important. Without
Speaker:
01:46:51,113 --> 01:46:53,073
it, I think we can get into,
Speaker:
01:46:54,449 --> 01:46:56,409
N.T. Wright said it right on. If your
Speaker:
01:46:56,409 --> 01:46:58,161
soteriology, atonement or
Speaker:
01:46:58,161 --> 01:47:00,038
anything, if your idea of Jesus Christ
Speaker:
01:47:01,373 --> 01:47:05,168
boiled down could be that Jesus came as a baby,
Speaker:
01:47:06,461 --> 01:47:07,212
crucified on the cross,
Speaker:
01:47:07,754 --> 01:47:08,797
and basically accomplished
Speaker:
01:47:08,839 --> 01:47:12,134
everything, you're wrong. Somehow you've got some
Speaker:
01:47:12,134 --> 01:47:13,301
messed up theology. And
Speaker:
01:47:13,301 --> 01:47:13,969
that's what Christus Victor
Speaker:
01:47:14,136 --> 01:47:16,805
argues for. This is wrong. You've got a whole
Speaker:
01:47:16,805 --> 01:47:17,556
life of Christ. You've
Speaker:
01:47:17,556 --> 01:47:18,265
got his life. You've got his
Speaker:
01:47:18,265 --> 01:47:20,517
teachings. You've got his kingdom. You've got his
Speaker:
01:47:20,517 --> 01:47:23,895
church. We've got to talk about that. And so
Speaker:
01:47:24,187 --> 01:47:27,065
that's where the silo of penal substitutionary
Speaker:
01:47:27,065 --> 01:47:29,901
goes. Basically, his teachings aren't important.
Speaker:
01:47:30,235 --> 01:47:32,362
dispensationalism said this, you know. His
Speaker:
01:47:32,362 --> 01:47:34,531
teachings aren't important. His life is not
Speaker:
01:47:34,531 --> 01:47:36,658
really important. It almost confuses you, you
Speaker:
01:47:36,658 --> 01:47:38,994
know, and all this other stuff. So basically,
Speaker:
01:47:38,994 --> 01:47:41,204
he could, he came as a sacrifice. We offer the
Speaker:
01:47:41,204 --> 01:47:42,789
sacrifice. Hey, he's a lamb. Might as well do it
Speaker:
01:47:42,831 --> 01:47:45,709
as a baby. And then we could have sacrificed. And
Speaker:
01:47:45,709 --> 01:47:47,836
that's what Christus Victor is trying out for.
Speaker:
01:47:47,836 --> 01:47:49,504
And I think it's a good pushback. We need that
Speaker:
01:47:49,504 --> 01:47:50,338
pushback from Christus Victor.
Speaker:
01:47:50,338 --> 01:47:53,508
Okay. So that's that. We could be, yeah, penal
Speaker:
01:47:53,508 --> 01:47:54,926
substitution taken to a whole
Speaker:
01:47:55,552 --> 01:47:58,471
another level than what you're suggesting here.
Speaker:
01:47:58,471 --> 01:48:00,932
And that's the sloppy. Just like I said, there's
Speaker:
01:48:00,932 --> 01:48:03,143
a sloppy side of Christus Victor. The sloppy
Speaker:
01:48:03,143 --> 01:48:04,978
side of penal substitutionary is that.
Speaker:
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:08,523
If you're in a thumper of a penal substitutionary
Speaker:
01:48:08,523 --> 01:48:10,817
guy, and all he's reading is Piper and this and
Speaker:
01:48:11,067 --> 01:48:14,779
all this different stuff, usually those guys are
Speaker:
01:48:14,779 --> 01:48:18,325
right wing, and they're talking about all this,
Speaker:
01:48:18,325 --> 01:48:22,454
and they've got a vibe. And so. Oh yeah. And
Speaker:
01:48:22,454 --> 01:48:23,663
that's why. You guys on
Speaker:
01:48:23,663 --> 01:48:24,789
that comment, you've got vibe.
Speaker:
01:48:25,540 --> 01:48:27,959
You guys are who I'm talking about. So yeah.
Speaker:
01:48:28,668 --> 01:48:30,045
Because I was like, well, that's probably what's
Speaker:
01:48:30,045 --> 01:48:33,298
going to happen when people hear the term and
Speaker:
01:48:33,298 --> 01:48:35,258
they immediately think they go to the extremes.
Speaker:
01:48:35,550 --> 01:48:39,137
Oh, that's that camp over there. And then that's
Speaker:
01:48:39,137 --> 01:48:40,555
why we wanted to actually
Speaker:
01:48:40,555 --> 01:48:41,765
do this podcast with you.
Speaker:
01:48:41,765 --> 01:48:43,725
He'll probably be controversial with some people,
Speaker:
01:48:44,059 --> 01:48:47,187
but I think it is important to talk about these
Speaker:
01:48:47,229 --> 01:48:50,106
things instead of just immediately going all the
Speaker:
01:48:50,106 --> 01:48:52,901
way to the far extremes of either direction or
Speaker:
01:48:52,901 --> 01:48:54,903
all directions or however you want to slice it.
Speaker:
01:48:55,153 --> 01:48:57,197
So here's my argument of this message is
Speaker:
01:48:57,864 --> 01:49:02,702
this way may be right; this way may be right.
Speaker:
01:49:03,411 --> 01:49:06,081
This apologetic may be right; this may be right.
Speaker:
01:49:06,623 --> 01:49:11,044
All I'm saying is that those silos and only being
Speaker:
01:49:11,044 --> 01:49:12,921
one way or the other, you won't find in the early
Speaker:
01:49:12,921 --> 01:49:15,882
church. Make your arguments philosophically, make
Speaker:
01:49:15,882 --> 01:49:17,384
your arguments in systematic theology.
Speaker:
01:49:18,385 --> 01:49:20,720
You can't make them in the theology of the early
Speaker:
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:22,764
church. That's the important piece.
Speaker:
01:49:22,973 --> 01:49:24,891
That's the important piece. So what's Dean arguing?
Speaker:
01:49:24,891 --> 01:49:26,643
I'm arguing is that if you're saying that this
Speaker:
01:49:26,726 --> 01:49:31,731
stuff is unknown until Anselm in the medieval
Speaker:
01:49:31,731 --> 01:49:34,609
period, no, that's ridiculous. Stop saying that,
Speaker:
01:49:34,609 --> 01:49:38,697
throw the books away. It's not true. If you're
Speaker:
01:49:38,697 --> 01:49:40,740
arguing from a philosophical point that it's only
Speaker:
01:49:40,740 --> 01:49:42,993
Christus Victor, it's only, fine, do that all
Speaker:
01:49:42,993 --> 01:49:44,661
day. Have coffee and get around the coffee table
Speaker:
01:49:44,661 --> 01:49:47,580
and say that you're not going to be able to do it
Speaker:
01:49:47,580 --> 01:49:51,167
with the early church. So I'm hearing between
Speaker:
01:49:51,251 --> 01:49:57,382
the lines is a real, an earnest desire for more
Speaker:
01:49:57,382 --> 01:50:00,093
digging into this material with the early church.
Speaker:
01:50:00,969 --> 01:50:03,221
Actually, it feels like a lot of this stuff is
Speaker:
01:50:03,221 --> 01:50:04,639
still new and still being
Speaker:
01:50:04,639 --> 01:50:05,432
published and coming out.
Speaker:
01:50:06,057 --> 01:50:08,685
I would suggest it seems like more scholarship
Speaker:
01:50:08,685 --> 01:50:09,769
should be happening here.
Speaker:
01:50:09,769 --> 01:50:13,815
We are in the best day for historical theology. I
Speaker:
01:50:13,815 --> 01:50:15,692
mean, literally, you can get on there
Speaker:
01:50:16,026 --> 01:50:19,404
and look up stuff. I want to see the Justin
Speaker:
01:50:19,404 --> 01:50:22,574
Martyrs' apologetic, first apology, the Greek
Speaker:
01:50:22,574 --> 01:50:24,117
manuscript where it's at, there it is on the
Speaker:
01:50:24,117 --> 01:50:25,368
manuscript. Oh, let me see that. Oh, I'd like
Speaker:
01:50:25,368 --> 01:50:27,579
to translate that myself. Translate it yourself.
Speaker:
01:50:28,121 --> 01:50:30,332
I mean, we're there. That's crazy.
Speaker:
01:50:30,832 --> 01:50:31,458
That's pretty neat.
Speaker:
01:50:31,666 --> 01:50:33,084
And back when I used to have to drive two hours
Speaker:
01:50:33,084 --> 01:50:36,504
to Dallas to go to the seminary to copy just the
Speaker:
01:50:36,504 --> 01:50:38,757
ante-nicene fathers alone. And I think that's
Speaker:
01:50:38,757 --> 01:50:40,467
exciting. And I think that we're going to get a
Speaker:
01:50:40,508 --> 01:50:44,137
historic faith. And I believe if we're honest,
Speaker:
01:50:44,471 --> 01:50:47,265
start with the fathers. Remember my, we'll do a
Speaker:
01:50:47,265 --> 01:50:50,185
whole podcast on my scar thing. Scripture,
Speaker:
01:50:50,352 --> 01:50:53,646
Christocentric, Antiquity, and Real. Antiquity,
Speaker:
01:50:53,646 --> 01:50:57,484
go as early. Don't go apologetics and start with
Speaker:
01:50:57,484 --> 01:50:59,569
the grab volume one of the ante-Nicenes,
Speaker:
01:51:00,153 --> 01:51:02,447
grab the apostolic fathers from Amazon or
Speaker:
01:51:02,447 --> 01:51:05,784
something and let the earliest ones speak to you.
Speaker:
01:51:06,409 --> 01:51:09,079
And then get into the other things. If you go the
Speaker:
01:51:09,079 --> 01:51:10,955
other way, you'll just be stuck in your
Speaker:
01:51:10,955 --> 01:51:12,749
silo and you'll be reading your silos that way.
Speaker:
01:51:13,583 --> 01:51:15,293
But it's powerful. It's life changing.
Speaker:
01:51:16,127 --> 01:51:18,505
So I want to, you mentioned C.S. Lewis towards
Speaker:
01:51:18,505 --> 01:51:20,215
the beginning here and how he'd been influenced
Speaker:
01:51:20,215 --> 01:51:22,008
by some of this. And he has an interesting quote
Speaker:
01:51:22,008 --> 01:51:24,469
on the on the atonement in his book,
Speaker:
01:51:24,469 --> 01:51:25,970
Mere Christianity. So I want to read this and
Speaker:
01:51:25,970 --> 01:51:27,347
then hear your thoughts,
Speaker:
01:51:27,347 --> 01:51:29,057
engage with that and so forth.
Speaker:
01:51:29,557 --> 01:51:31,726
So this is what he says. "We are told that Christ
Speaker:
01:51:31,726 --> 01:51:33,269
was killed for us, that his death
Speaker:
01:51:34,020 --> 01:51:36,815
has washed out our sins and that by dying,
Speaker:
01:51:36,815 --> 01:51:39,984
he disabled death itself."
Speaker:
01:51:40,318 --> 01:51:43,405
That is the formula. That is Christianity. That
Speaker:
01:51:43,405 --> 01:51:44,406
is what has to be
Speaker:
01:51:44,406 --> 01:51:46,950
believed. Any theories we build up
Speaker:
01:51:46,950 --> 01:51:50,412
as to how Christ's death did all this are in my
Speaker:
01:51:50,412 --> 01:51:53,665
view, quite secondary. Mere plans or diagrams to
Speaker:
01:51:53,665 --> 01:51:57,293
be left alone if they do not help us. And even if
Speaker:
01:51:57,293 --> 01:52:00,171
they do help us not to be confused with the thing itself.
Speaker:
01:52:00,171 --> 01:52:03,842
What do you say to that?
Yeah, totally amen. Yeah. And
Speaker:
01:52:03,842 --> 01:52:04,592
that's the bottom line. So
Speaker:
01:52:04,592 --> 01:52:05,844
I started with the passage
Speaker:
01:52:06,678 --> 01:52:09,722
that "by this we are saved according to the
Speaker:
01:52:09,722 --> 01:52:13,393
scriptures." And as these silos and theologians
Speaker:
01:52:13,393 --> 01:52:17,021
and mere men have tried to redeem it, and he's
Speaker:
01:52:17,021 --> 01:52:18,982
right in the middle. I mean, he was influenced.
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01:52:18,982 --> 01:52:21,359
He loved Aulén. He goes into writing and he liked
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01:52:21,359 --> 01:52:23,945
it very much. End of the day, he says this,
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01:52:23,945 --> 01:52:26,197
and I agree with him. I think that point has to
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01:52:26,197 --> 01:52:29,367
be made. And that point, he's deliberately
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01:52:29,617 --> 01:52:31,911
owning the nuance. It's the rest are secondary.
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01:52:32,328 --> 01:52:34,372
And that's the important point. Yeah.
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01:52:34,372 --> 01:52:36,499
Acknowledging the mystery, perhaps. Would that be
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01:52:36,499 --> 01:52:37,834
another way of saying it?
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01:52:37,834 --> 01:52:44,424
And that are we going to miss the whole point?
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01:52:46,426 --> 01:52:48,219
Here, I'll give you that
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01:52:48,219 --> 01:52:49,220
verse one more time here.
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01:53:18,458 --> 01:53:24,964
That feels like a really strong place
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01:53:24,964 --> 01:53:26,841
to end this episode. Is there anything else you'd
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01:53:26,841 --> 01:53:28,384
like to say? I think it's good. I think it's
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01:53:28,384 --> 01:53:29,761
good. And so, yeah, it'll
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01:53:29,761 --> 01:53:31,346
be interesting to see. So,
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01:53:31,346 --> 01:53:32,889
I'll give you some resources. I'll give you some
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01:53:32,889 --> 01:53:34,766
interesting books that I think are some good
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01:53:34,766 --> 01:53:37,519
scholarship. Again, all of it, let's keep to the
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01:53:37,519 --> 01:53:41,898
word of God as our... I like C.S. Lewis's
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01:53:42,440 --> 01:53:45,068
verse there, or word passage there. And I'll
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01:53:45,068 --> 01:53:45,735
give you some resources
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01:53:45,735 --> 01:53:46,653
and some things to check it
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01:53:46,653 --> 01:53:49,822
out more. And yeah, so it's a good topic. Well,
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01:53:49,822 --> 01:53:51,950
thanks for being willing to come on and share on
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01:53:51,950 --> 01:53:54,118
this. And yeah, we're going to link as much as we
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01:53:54,118 --> 01:53:56,204
possibly can on the, in
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01:53:56,204 --> 01:53:57,038
the references down in the
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01:53:57,038 --> 01:53:59,707
show notes or in the description. And yeah, when
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01:53:59,707 --> 01:54:01,543
this releases, I'll let you know and you can,
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01:54:01,626 --> 01:54:03,878
you can watch the comments for it because I'm
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01:54:03,878 --> 01:54:05,505
sure there'll be lots of discussion happening.
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01:54:05,505 --> 01:54:06,714
That's awesome. I hope so. So,
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01:54:06,714 --> 01:54:07,549
thank you so much for sharing.
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01:54:07,757 --> 01:54:08,132
Thank you Reagan. It's a
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01:54:08,132 --> 01:54:09,509
pleasure to be here. Blessings brother.
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01:54:10,718 --> 01:54:12,971
Thanks for listening to this episode with Dean on
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01:54:12,971 --> 01:54:15,139
the subject of the Atonement. If you found this
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01:54:15,139 --> 01:54:16,766
interesting, you might want to check out the
Speaker:
01:54:16,766 --> 01:54:18,893
interview we did with David Bercot where he gives
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01:54:18,893 --> 01:54:22,230
some of his input on how he views salvation. You
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01:54:22,230 --> 01:54:24,691
can find that linked down below. And of course,
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01:54:24,691 --> 01:54:27,068
you can find all our content for free on our
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01:54:27,068 --> 01:54:29,779
website at anabaptistperspectives.org.
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01:54:30,238 --> 01:54:31,447
Thanks again for listening and
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01:54:31,447 --> 01:54:32,949
we'll catch you in the next episode.