#1 BEN ASKEW

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 38 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Ben: where do I fit in this?

[00:00:08] What can I do to be part of trying to Encourage some some forward movement. How can I contribute to a future that is worth moving towards for? acting and actor training and what that is and my thoughts of my interest in in act Which had started from open a broader interest in in contemporary?

[00:00:30] psychology and where that fitted within what we do as as actors and in drama schools came to fruition and that became the the thing that I felt that I could Develop and focus on that would allow me to make a small but hopefully meaningful contribution within these big questions

[00:00:50] Ross: We're back, and it feels good. It's 2024, and what a guest we have to start the year. let me introduce you to Dr. Ben Askew. He's an acting teacher, lecturer, writer, and director.

[00:01:05] He's the originator of the Act for Acting Project and is one of the UK's leading exponents of theater analysis and the Lain Malmgren System of Movement psychology.

[00:01:15] In this episode you'll hear all about Ben. How he got into acting, when he first discovered act, and how he realized its potential, not only for actor well being, but also for character development. I love this conversation and I think you might too. This is the first of three episodes with Ben. In the second episode we'll focus on the use of ACT in his work. And in the third, we have a spontaneous chat about Macbeth. Particularly Lady Macbeth. And we look at her behavior and relationship with her husband through the ACT lens. And I'm so excited to share that one with you. [00:02:00] Now for those of you who are new to People Soup, we're an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

[00:02:13] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science. Let's just scoot over to the news desk If you'd like to find out more about the Act in the Workplace, Train the Trainer program I developed with Paul Flaxman in partnership with Contextual Consulting, you'll find the link in the show notes. It's coming up soon, in April and May this year. I've trained hundreds of adults using this approach, and also hundreds of trainers, too.

[00:02:39] and thanks to Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting, there's a discount code for the course And this code gives you 20 percent off my Act in the Workplace, Train the Trainer program. And that code is PSUP20. You'll find the details in the show notes. Also, I've been invited to speak by the Association for Business Psychology on the 6th of February. The title of my presentation is, How Behavioral Science Can Support the Cultivation of Authentic Leadership. You'll find the link in the show notes, and if you're a member of the ABP, it's free.

[00:03:10] Now it feels like quite a fruitful year. because there are other collaborations in the pipeline. But for now, get a brew on And have a listen to part one of my chat with the wonderful Ben Askew. Dr. Ben Askew, welcome to PeopleSoup.

[00:03:32] Ben: Thank you very much, hello.

[00:03:34] Ross: Hi, now Ben you'll be familiar I've got a research department and they've done a bit of digging on you I just wanted to read out what they've come up with.

[00:03:43] Ben: Okay.

[00:03:44] Ross: They're not always 100 percent accurate so just keep your ears

[00:03:48] peeled.

[00:03:49] Ben: Okay, alright.

[00:03:50] Ross: So it says here, Dr. Ben Askew is an acting teacher, writer and director. He is the originator of the Act for Acting project and is one of [00:04:00] the UK's leading exponents of theatre analysis and the Laban Malmgren system of movement psychology. For listeners, that just took me about four attempts say Malmgren.

[00:04:12] Ben: It's a tricky one.

[00:04:13] Ross: Yeah, we'll no doubt find a bit more about that in a moment. He led the teaching of theatre analysis at Drama Centre London for over six years and continues to work at some of the UK's top drama schools.

[00:04:24] recently directing a number of rehearsal projects for the Manchester School of Theatre and delivering specialist act matrix training for staff and students at the Oxford School of Drama. He also works as a freelance acting coach and runs regular classes and workshops through the Working Action Group. Trained as an actor, his professional experience includes work in the West End and for companies including Shakespeare's Globe and the Manchester Royal Exchange, along with roles for television and radio. His dramatic writing has been produced at various venues around the UK, and his academic research has been published in peer reviewed journals, most recently an article on acting and mentalisation published in Stanislavski Studies. He received his doctorate from Central St. Martins in 2017 a thesis exploring psychophysical approaches to verse and heightened text and he continues to conduct research in this area.

[00:05:16] Ben is a certified ACT matrix facilitator and a registered mental health first aider. He lives with his family in beautiful Yorkshire. How's that Ben? How are we

[00:05:25] doing?

[00:05:26] Ben: Well, no, that, that all sounds pretty true. I mean, it also reminds me that for the sake of your research department that I, that I probably need to u update some of my info, some of my information a little bit. no, it's interesting 'cause there's just some things that sound very recent in that bio that feel a little further, further back now.

[00:05:42] Uh, but no, this is, this is all true. I deny, deny nothing.

[00:05:46] Ross: Wonderful. And they did pick up that you are now a lecturer in acting at the Leeds Conservatoire.

[00:05:52] Ben: This is true, yes, this is my new, role I've just started in the last, um, few weeks, um, working at the Leeds Conservatoire, the drama school there, which is [00:06:00] a fantastic place to be, yeah.

[00:06:02] Ross: And I think I know where it is. I think I've walked past it when I was doing some work with Northern Ballet. Would

[00:06:07] that be right?

[00:06:08] Ben: It is very close, yeah, so there's the, there's the Leeds Playhouse as it now is, it's all just been redeveloped from what, was previously the West Yorkshire Playhouse, and the Leeds Conservatoire buildings are all there, and it's, exciting. It's new in the sense that there's been the Leeds College of Music that's been there for a long time and it's been very, you know, it's very well established.

[00:06:27] And, um, they've recently reconfigured this as the Leeds Conservatoire and brought in, um, the drama school elements, the actor training there. so it's a, yeah, it's a really, really exciting place to be getting involved with and being a part of.

[00:06:42] Ross: Super. And there's, there's one more thing, Ben, that the research department have uncovered and they've heard that you've recently developed an obsession with Disney films, perhaps through your daughter, and there are plans afoot for some act related content or output arising from

[00:06:59] that.

[00:07:00] Ben: Yeah, they're very hot in their research in your, your department, clearly. You know, this is true. I have a five year old, uh, five year old daughter. and yes, watching Disney films with, with her, uh, or, or, you know, using her as the excuse to watch, uh, watch Disney films on occasion might be the, the case.

[00:07:16] because I hadn't, I hadn't really watched any of them Since I was a kid, and obviously there's all the new films that have come out more recently that I'd never seen. and some of them are really, some of them are absolutely brilliant, really fantastic. And, um, it kind of shifts me in my gears from, uh, from a lot of my, my time and attention.

[00:07:34] And my work is around, you know, Shakespeare and, um, wonderful kind of classical European drama and things. and actually coming to some of the Disney films, apart from just enjoying, you know, enjoying them and spending quality time with my daughter, is realizing how much, there is in them that's fascinating from dramatic point of view, human point of view, but also because my, um, interest and my knowledge of act was [00:08:00] Developing also through lockdown and when we were there.

[00:08:02] And so doing things like finding some time to watch a Disney film and getting to know those that this happened whilst we were all locked in. And so I was kind of bringing this newly emerging for me, act perspective on things. And it was just naturally. happening, that I was looking at these characters, looking at Elsa in Frozen, um, looking at what's going on in Encanto and these movies, and just going, oh, goodness, that you can really see these processes that I'm learning about and being fascinated by, in terms of psychological flexibility, and particularly, it's opposite, you know, the inflexible processes and how people are getting Stuck.

[00:08:48] and I think some of these Disney films do a, do an incredibly sophisticated job actually o of, embodying that, of showing us how that works in a way that, um, is really accessible and exciting. So, yeah, no, I, I'm, I'm all for sitting around watching Disney films, and imagining an act matrix in my mind as I, as I do so, yep.

[00:09:07] it's a hobby.

[00:09:09] Ross: And Pea Soup, it's me and Ben have been Chatting about this and it's, it's not a fully formed idea yet, but there could be a couple of, or maybe even more, but uh, some episodes exploring this further, taking one of those Disney films and looking at it from an act perspective. So, slight spoiler there, but watch this space folks we're in.

[00:09:29] Ben: Yeah.

[00:09:30] Ross: Yeah, we're, we're in early conversations on that, but it's a good excuse for me to watch more

[00:09:35] Disney films.

[00:09:36] Ben: Which is enough of a reason I think.

[00:09:39] Ross: Let me bring it back. I've, I've had a go at introducing parts of you and your role, but I wonder if you could just expand on that for us. Just talk a bit more about. What's got you to where you are now in your career, and maybe some of the pivotal moments along the way.

[00:09:55] Ben: yeah, absolutely. I, well, I trained as an actor. I went [00:10:00] to a school called Drama Center in London. So I suppose two things there that are already pretty pivotal for me, one of which was making that decision in the first place to go to, well, to audition and then, and then to get to fortunately get a place at a drama school and Follow that route in terms of what I was, what I was thinking I would do with my life. Uh, and also the decision to go to that school in particular, because, that had a big influence on me and my thinking about theater. And, um, as you mentioned in your, intro from your research elves, that, um, I went back and taught at that school and that, and, and it therefore played a big part in, shaping me in my te in the teaching that I do.

[00:10:41] So those, so those were in themselves just going there. and making that choice was a, a pivotal moment, I guess. Um, and then I worked as an actor primarily for a number of, for a number of years, and was very fortunate then to, to. Get out there and work, because it's notoriously not the easiest, um, profession to, to make workable for you, for, for someone.

[00:11:05] But, uh, so I, I left drama school and I went out and I worked mainly in the theatre as an actor. doing some Shakespeare, doing, doing plays different parts of the country and in London and elsewhere. Uh, and also doing some writing. That was the, the other sort of string to my bow of developing myself as a playwright.

[00:11:24] So I was there, doing that and you know, enjoying that and getting a lot out of it. But it, uh, I suppose the next big pivotal moment in a sense was having been a few years into my career started to have this sense that there was something that wasn't quite um, working for me.

[00:11:43] The long walk on the beach

[00:11:43] Ben: Those there was bits. of something that I wasn't quite touching on in the work that I was, that I was doing. And I remember I went for a big, long walk on the beach with my, with my partner. And we had a big, um, sort of chat about [00:12:00] it. And I think there were a couple of things that were coming up for me at that point.

[00:12:05] One of which I think was to do with the practicalities. Of life and the, the lifestyle of the work that I was doing, you know, I was going here, there and everywhere in digs different, different places as is the, the life of a, of a freelance actor working in the theater and had sort of got to a, got to a, a point maybe in life of going is.

[00:12:27] way of organizing how I'm living, working for all areas of my life, you know, of, of how I want to live and my relationships and, and things. And I think the other side of it was I'd sort of got to a point where whilst I was really enjoying a lot of the work that I was doing, where I felt there were parts of myself that weren't quite being challenged, engaged in a way that I, that I Wanted them to be, and also where I, I think I got to a point where I was reflecting on my own work as an actor mainly.

[00:13:00] And, and finding myself in a rehearsal room or on stage going, I sort of feel like I'm in the wrong role here. Not in terms of I should be playing that part instead of the part that I'm playing, but in terms of going I know that it's about theater and this thing that we, that we're doing, but I sort of feel like someone else could come in and do this acting bit that I'm And there's something else around what is happening here where I think I would be adding more value, you know, where there's more of the stuff that I bring to this whole business of, of theater and acting that is that I'm not quite, I'm not in the right place to quite give what I, what I think I can, I can give.

[00:13:39] so that led to them, then they're walking back along the beach, to the strange decision, uh, perhaps. That I thought alongside doing the work that I'm doing, I'm going to do a PhD and, exercise sort of a part of of my mind and my engagement with theatre and what, what it is that interests me and what I think is [00:14:00] important about it in a different way.

[00:14:03] So that, that, um, fateful walk on the beach was a, was a, a pivotal moment. So I then started, I was still working. In the theatre, but I started, studying for a PhD, which you mentioned in your intro was all about verse and poetry in the theatre. And, alongside that, I started to teach, as many people do, as their, as their, Doing that research work.

[00:14:30] And so I started teaching back at the school where I trained a drama center And that opened up this avenue of my of my practice that has become a central part of it part of what I want to bring to Theater and to acting is what I can maybe offer through the training of people through opening People up to certain ideas and certain ways of working in a way that I feel can be you know important and and hopefully make a difference to them and to this art form in some small but significant way.

[00:15:07] So then I was doing that and then I think if we're looking at a next big milestone came along this period where , a few pretty big things happened in pretty quick succession. one of which was I finished a PhD, was I finished a PhD, which then you go, oh, oh, what do I do now? What do I do now? Right?

[00:15:28] That's, that's, that's what am I gonna do with this? Or, or, or am I doing something with it? Am I doing something else? What's going on? Um, but bigger than, than that really was, first of all, I became a father, um, for the fir for the first time. So that changes a lot of stuff. And then not too long after that, we had this thing called COVID that came along. and I know as everyone was sort of working out what that meant for life and what life looked like and how things were [00:16:00] going to be. And alongside all of that, this school drama center where I was, where I trained and had sort of made my base for my teaching practice was facing the fact that it was going to close, which is a whole, Shakespeare in plot in itself, in terms, in terms of the, the various factors that were feeding into to that and part of that broader picture, of drama schools that with Covid going on, with everything that was happening with the, the big discussions happening in society and the world about, about.

[00:16:33] everything about who we are as a society, about how we take care of people, about how we become inclusive, and how equality and equity are built into what we do. And, in amongst all of that, drama schools, I think, found themselves in crisis. In lots of ways, say, Drama Centre particularly had its own crisis, but lots of questions were being asked and lots of pressures being put on drama schools.

[00:16:59] In, in lots of different ways. Firstly, I think big questions about, are drama schools you know, inclusive, are they taking care of people, are they fit for purpose for the 21st century in terms of the attitudes to what theatre is, the attitudes to the way you train actors, how you take care of people whilst you're training them to do something that can be very physically and emotionally and psychologically challenging and demanding.

[00:17:25] And also some very pragmatic things, in terms of big financial pressures on drama schools, but a lot of expectation that things need to be cut down and changed and made to fit different models. And I think There was a sense through that period, and it's ongoing, I think, but particularly at that time when it seemed like there was this storm of things all happening at the same time, of questions being asked of what is actor training in the 21st century?[00:18:00]

[00:18:00] Does it have a place? Is it important? Are drama schools as they've been conceived? in any way fit for what we do now. And so with that combination of kind of personal circumstances for me and these, these kind of big conversations that seem to be going on of thinking,

[00:18:20] Where do I fit in?

[00:18:20] Ben: where do I fit in this?

[00:18:21] What can I do to be part of trying to Encourage some some forward movement. How can I contribute to a future that is worth moving towards for? acting and actor training and what that is and my thoughts of my interest in in act Which had started from open a broader interest in in contemporary?

[00:18:44] psychology and where that fitted within what we do as as actors and in drama schools came to fruition and that became the the thing that I felt that I could Develop and focus on that would allow me to make a small but hopefully meaningful contribution within these big questions About how the the sector moves forward

[00:19:07] Ross: Ben, thank you so much for setting out part of that journey. And I'm interested to delve into a couple of points. So

[00:19:17] What was it about ACT when you discovered it that really captured your attention?

[00:19:22] What attracted be about becoming an actor

[00:19:22] Ben: well It was interesting. so my interest in psychology and acting is kind of long is very long standing partly because It's probably what attracted me to acting as an, as an actor, this, idea of getting inside and into the inner workings in a sense of, of characters and what's going on with them.

[00:19:44] And also an interest in The process of acting on what we're engaging in psychologically with, you know, in our set in ourselves to do this strange thing of standing up and pretending to be someone else. And that being of interest to other people for some reason, and you know, what is [00:20:00] going on there? What is all that about?

[00:20:02] and the, methods and approaches that I'd been trained in and was teaching had a big psychological. components to the, to the, particularly the, you referenced it in the Laban Malmgren system, which was a big part of the, the training I had at Drama Center. We tend to call it character analysis, which is a much easier thing to say than the Laban Malmgren system.

[00:20:22] Um, yeah, so, so we stuck with that. which has a, a lot of, concepts and ideas within it taken from Jungian psychology, and Jung's ideas of psychological types, and that was always fascinating for me, and then it became part of my own teaching practice, but I had this sense, within that, and within things like the Stanislavski system, which is the, the more mainstream approach, it's kind of the, the big sort of reference point for most, approaches to acting that we, that we have, that, that's there somehow.

[00:20:57] related to that system. And again, it's about understanding the psychology of character and what people want and why they do what they do. but whether it's Jung or whether it's the ideas in Stanislavski of kind of noticing a lot of these ideas, they're great, they're fascinating, they're based in ideas about human beings and psychology and how we work, that are from quite a long time ago and that sometimes become problematic, I think, in terms of the, some of the, the, their assumptions about human beings, and also just maybe feel, feel a bit out of step with where we are in the 21st century and how we think about ourselves and how we think about.

[00:21:35] people, so, so there's a, there's a long route around to, to an answer to your question, I guess. so it had this, so I, so I got this big kind of open interest, I suppose, in what models were out there, what new ways, newer ways of thinking about these things were there and how they could be useful to us.

[00:21:52] an act appeared on the horizon, and there were a few things that immediately leapt out about it. For one [00:22:00] thing, Act for acting just works a hell of a lot better than, you know, CBT for acting. As in, Act just a lot catchier. Um, so, so, you know, there was a, there was probably, there was a little bit of an instant appeal there of going, Oh, I hope Act's interesting because it's a good name for a model to go with acting.

[00:22:18] Discovering ACT - Values

[00:22:18] Ben: but, there were a couple of things that, that I remember when I was first hearing about it that popped out. One of which was about, values. and how they, the, the way that they work is these kind of compass points, these directions of travel. And, and that immediately had this kind of dual interest for me, first of all, in terms of our values, our artistic values as actors, as theater, theater makers, and, and the usefulness of that way of, articulating what we're about that is there within act and values, but also it made me think about, okay, how can we. identify values as they relate to character, to helping us to understand character. Because the usual thing within The Stanislavski model and the various approaches attached to it is essentially more about goals, right? It's about, we think it talks about its objectives, right? What do I, what do I want?

[00:23:11] And this sort of idea of a super objective, this ultimate want at the heart of this character, which can be hugely, useful, but, but can also be And when I think you, when you look at it from an, an act perspective, kind of rigid, and actually there's a lot of, within characters that is all about characters being kind of rigid and, and stuck with, something. But something appealed to me about the idea of, of, of the flexibility of values, of going what, what is there for these people that is around. Just rather just one goal. What is it that, that, they're about? What is it that they want their lives to be about? And how can we understand that and how does that help us maybe to understand characters in a more, nuanced and empathic way?

[00:23:56] So that was one bit. Values was one of the first things and I just kind of [00:24:00] started making a few little connections for myself. And the other was just the whole concept of psychological flexibility, which, you know, is a good place to start. And, and the, Russ Harris way of glossing that particularly of this, the ability to open up, be present, and do what matters.

[00:24:18] And immediately just went, well, that's exactly what we're asking actors to do. That's what we're, when we, people are studying to be actors, when people are standing up in a rehearsal room. That's what they're being asked to do, is to open up, be present, and do what matters. And, wow, if there's a whole system here that is about supporting people in being able to do that, in ways that are kind of constructive and nurturing and supportive of those people, because I think, you know, lots of things in life are very challenging, but there's the, acting has a lot of demands that it makes of you, in terms of What you're exposing yourself to in terms of being in front of an audience, how you're revealing things about yourself through your work, the levels of criticism that you're potentially opening yourself up to in a public, um, setting.

[00:25:11] And one of the big parts of these conversations about drama schools, um, that I think is, is really important was about On the one hand, it's really important to challenge people and move people out of their comfort zones. And on the other hand, is that being done in a way that is, that is safe and that is responsible in terms of the way people are being pushed and challenged in their acting work, how they're being expected to sort of take their imaginations or take themselves to places that are challenging, how they're being expected to stand up in front of people.

[00:25:48] And get criticized. And even with that very first description of what psychological flexibility is and this [00:26:00] idea that there, that there are skills that can be cultivated to support people in becoming more psychologically flexible, just immediately made me think, okay, there's something worth looking at here.

[00:26:13] it built from there. Really?

[00:26:16] Ross: Gosh. And we'll, we'll come on to talk a bit more about Act for Acting

[00:26:22] in part two, but hats off to you for bringing it to a whole new workplace.

[00:26:29] Ben: Well, it just seemed It was one of those little moments that you have sometimes where you go It seems so It just seemed so obvious. When you see I suppose of going Just happening to see what is there in the ACT model and how much it seemed to fit with what is being asked of people in this, in this space and going, okay, maybe it's just that I happen to be sitting, you know, sitting in the right place, looking in the right direction at the right time to go.

[00:27:00] It seems so clear to me that these things go together. And I think the other thing that, that, that's kind of cemented it from, well, a couple of things you should say, we'll, we'll come on to, to the. hopefully exciting, interesting things about acting and an act as we go forward. But the other thing for me, I think in that, so in that scenario, I was describing of covid's going on with wherever we're all that uncertainty feeling like, I wasn't quite sure what my next moves.

[00:27:28] What were, feeling like the. The place that I thought was my kind of base for whatever I was going to develop in terms of how I taught and those kind of things, that was going to be where I was doing that, that's being, you know, the feeling of that being taken away and sitting there going, what can I do?

[00:27:48] What can I do? And I think being introduced to the idea of psychological flexibility is what encouraged me to do anything, to do something.[00:28:00] In the sense of I think I was there going, okay, I've got all these big grand ideas about, you know, if someone would just give me X million pounds and my, you know, in a building and the space to it, I could do, you know, we could do something incredible, right?

[00:28:14] We could, we could, we could try and Do something better than what's been done. Okay, well that's all very well, Ben, but, but, but, you know, that's, that's not immediately on the cards. And also, you know, you need to cure COVID in the meantime if you want to be able do anything with your millions of pounds.

[00:28:30] and feeling very stuck of what to do. And in the end going, okay, well what I could do is I could set up a Gmail account. I could be very brave and set up a Twitter account, as it was at the time, because that wasn't a thing that I, that I did. And I could put out a tweet that goes, I'm interested in looking at this thing.

[00:28:51] Would so, would so, are there some actors that would like to jump on Zoom with me whilst we're all in lockdown and have a look at this? And, and that's what we did, and that's how I started that process. and it was precisely to do with This whole concept of psychological flexibility and workability, right, of going, Okay, I'm feeling very stuck with this stuff.

[00:29:10] I've got all these kind of, like, big goals and ambitions, and that's fine, but what can I do that, that is workable for me in this moment that moves me towards what I think is important? That allows me to take a little step towards, I think it's really important that we, that we try and move this forward, that we try and, Open up a space where people can explore themselves as people and as artists and as actors in a way that is that is that is, um, moving things forward and and opening it up for people and Actually, there was something that I could do There was something that I could do which was just that i've set up an email account set up You know make a little offer and and and put a zoom session in the calendar and you go.

[00:29:55] Okay. See that that's That's the point, right? That's psychological flexibility in [00:30:00] action, a little bit.

[00:30:01] Ross: Lovely. And it's those small steps that, that, can lead to somewhere where we don't know, but we're moving towards our, our values. So Ben, I'm curious. You know the pivotal moment of the beach walk.

[00:30:16] Ben: hmm.

[00:30:17] Ross: At that point had you discovered ACT?

[00:30:20] Ben: I hadn't. No, this was quite a while before Act kind of entered my consciousness at all. what's interesting and in the spirit full disclosure is that that walk along the beach with my partner My partner is a clinical psychologist, which kind of, informs the narrative, somewhat.

[00:30:39] So, we'd had discussions, over, over a long time about acting and psychology, and particularly, you know, That's about how I would, you know, how I would think about characters, and how that compared to the way that she would, um, formulates the things with clients and this kind of thing.

[00:30:57] And so I got, an interest in an I and a lot of ideas from, those conversations with her and things that she directed me to, to, to look at and read about a few different things. But ACT wasn't, wasn't in the mix at that point. And again, it was one of those things, and it's a way that COVID, when it turned up a few years after that, informed this whole story, is that my partner had been doing own training in ACT, adding to her skills and the models that she was using.

[00:31:32] And of course, because of COVID. All of her training moved on line, right? So one of the ways that Covid again sort of contributed to this was part of how I started to find out properly about ACT was that she was doing lots of, act training sessions online and I would start to just appear over her shoulder, over her shoulder and sort of listen it, listen in to these, um, to these things and then chat with her about it and ask questions.

[00:31:59] And so it was, it was [00:32:00] only, it was only at that time. And it was just one of those, again, of the, the, the kind of different things just aligning because I'd been consciously thinking about different models and how they related to acting and kind of looking at this, that and the, uh, other and seeing connections here and there.

[00:32:16] And then it just happened, um, that she was particularly looking at Act and chatting to me about Act whilst I was engaging in, in that sort of search. and as we were just talking about, there were just a couple of things about it that really clicked. And I went, okay, I'm going to have a proper look at this.

[00:32:32] And from there, it I was kind of hooked on that in a, in a, in a good way, hopefully in a useful. And because it seemed to speak to so much about, what I felt I was looking for and for what it felt, was needed in what we were doing.

[00:32:48] Ross: It's so interesting hearing about, let's call it the beach, because that's the, that's what it will be called when they make a film of your, life your work. And that scene, it just really resonates with me because I was interviewed about my work, acting the workplace by my podcast producer, Emma.

[00:33:07] And I was telling her how I made this big decision to leave the civil service after 23 years, because I had an itch. That I'd been scratching, thinking there's something else for me to do. And I left and went to study at City Uni, which is where I discovered ACT. So I made a move towards what's important for me in terms of supporting people in organizations and being of service before I discovered ACT.

[00:33:31] But I think looking back, it makes me think, oh yeah, that was pretty aligned with what matters to me. And just, it just resonated with me that you, you weren't as immersed in act in that scene on the beach.

[00:33:47] Ben: it's interesting. I think, as you say, you could kind of look looking back on it. it's a while since I've thought particularly about. cause it feels like that was a while ago now. but it was, as you say, say a [00:34:00] moment that's then resonated through it through and had lots of influence in a, in a sense of what's happened, what's happened in the years since.

[00:34:07] But yeah, absolutely. Looking back, I think you could see, you know, you could put what was going on for me and what was being talked about. In that conversation, map it out on the matrix or, you know, name the different hexaflex processes that are going on. And you could see that maybe it was about, some of my values that felt like they were being neglected slightly by, by What was going on in my life at that time, or that I wasn't quite finding the ways of balancing them or finding a new set of committed actions that felt like they could keep on working for what was important to me.

[00:34:48] and again, it certainly wasn't that everything that came back from that little walk with everything sorted. But again, a bit like with, uh, say during the covid times situation. Or I think it's just finding that next step that goes, okay, that is something that I can, can do and let's see where that goes rather than necessarily having the whole, the whole thing sorted.

[00:35:09] Which is probably a thing for me even still, still now, is that, that sort of, you know, that desire or that expectation that I have, that I've had needing to have the whole thing thing solved, to know what the next step towards the this massive big picture idea is. so that's been a big thing for me with ACT on a personal level, is that process of going, that's great having your, you know, these, great big ideas, but what can you do?

[00:35:35] What can you do now?

[00:35:37] Ross: Mm.

[00:35:38] Ben: And what can you do even if you don't know exactly what the end point is going to be, or whether there even is an end point? What, what's important and what can you do now to step towards it?

[00:35:47] Ross: Lovely. And being a curious type, Ben, I just want to ask a couple, well, one's a question, one's more of a reflection. But question is, is taking you way back [00:36:00] to Ben, to Ben at school.

[00:36:02] And thinking, when did you first think, Oh, this is, uh, this is the direction I want to take my studies in, my, my career in.

[00:36:10] Ben: okay. Actually, Talk of pivotal moments, I could give you, we could do another pivotal moment on that one. Which I don't know, it's, I, I, my memory of it is very clear. But, I'm not sure how much it's a sort of fabrication after the, after the fact. Certainly in terms of how pivotal it was.

[00:36:28] Because I think, from as far back as I can remember, Stories and storytelling and writing and those that those things were always things that I was very excited about and I was quite I Still am I think relatively quiet as a person so performing and things weren't immediately my My go to thing, but as, but as I got a little older, particularly when I, when I was in my, in my teens, I'd, I'd got into a, a local drama group.

[00:37:01] And so that interest had developed. But anyway, I think getting to that, there's the, when you get to those sort of moments of decision about what am I going to do? you know when you get to I went to a sixth form college and you're doing all of that process And what's the next step? And I think there's a lot of people Do, it felt like there was a big fork in the road there because I was always relatively academic in terms terms of, I, I was quite good with the, with that stuff and had a lot of interest in, some academic subjects.

[00:37:31] And I, and so there was a, there was a big side of me and a lot of expectation, on me, of me I think to go and do something very academic. so there was one plan. was that I think I was going to go and do philosophy And then there was this other side that was going, but, you know, maybe acting and theater and people, some people have been very encouraging about that. And they think that I could do something with that, that interest [00:38:00] and that passion that I have and feeling like very much of this sort of this sort of fork in the road.

[00:38:05] And. Not being sure and having as again, I think a lot of people that are considering acting and drama school have some discussions with Parents and things about about you know, their views of what they thought was there was a better was a better choice and all of that and strangely the moment that I really remember As I was going, as I was having all these debates with myself, was in an A level philosophy class.

[00:38:34] And we were doing, we were doing Nietzsche. And Nietzsche has a lot to answer for, right? But, um, and I remember, you know, we, we, in this little port a cabin type classroom that we had at this, at this sixth form college. And these battered old copies of Beyond Good and Evil. by Nietzsche. And I remember looking at this, this page, and the, the, Nietzsche has this concept of the free spirit, free spirit, and whenever it was in the book, book, it was always italicized, you know, you see that there's a free spirit in italics. And I remember looking at this page and looking at this thing and what, came up for me was this idea that, that what I was passionate about, about philosophy and why I wanted to study that and why I was thinking maybe I could sort of contribute to that and be kind of an academic in that, in that area and write about and do stuff around there.

[00:39:22] but what I'd sort of made sense of in my attempts to make any sense of, of Nietzsche at that point in my life and what I was seeing in that page. Was this idea that the real deal of all of that, the real deal of philosophy, the real deal of sort of asking what is life about is to answer it through art, is to kind of go the, that's the test you're running away if you go and hide yourself in academia, the kind of the, the, the sort of real thing to do is to try and. Ask these questions through a kind of embodied art form, [00:40:00] which is, which I, which I always go back and it sounds, maybe just sounds absolutely, uh, ridiculous as a, as a process, but that's the thing that brought the two things together, I think for me, and it is a pivotal moment because the two things are still very much together for me, and that's a big part of my practice and everything that I, that, I have wanted to do with it is to go that then they're not two different For me, what acting and theatre is about is really, it's an attempt at a, at an embodied, experienced interpretation of what it means to be a human being and what life is and what it's all about and different perspectives on that and how we cope with what life is. But rather than just talking about it and theorising about it, that you try and put yourself in it.

[00:40:55] And make sense of it through your body and your emotions and through, through this, this thing that I like to say and that I think, again, is, is a sort of semi stolen from Nietzsche, probably. Of that we, that we take these big ideas about life and what it means to be human and we try to make them dance a little bit.

[00:41:18] And that, and that for me, in a way is the whole point of this art form of, acting and the theater is that, is that we take these things that are very difficult to get hold of and you make them stand up in front of you and do a little dance and you feel them and experience them in a different way.

[00:41:36] Um. And so I had this big revelation and felt very excited, um, as I went and got my, you know, pasta, cheese and beans from the canteen lunch, of this idea that that was the answer, that it wasn't a choice between the two, it was about, Trying to commit to the idea that they were one and the same but that meant I [00:42:00] had to do the the thing that was What felt certainly from the circumstances I was in at the time like the much riskier.

[00:42:06] more challenging thing which was to to get myself able to train in the practicalities and to pursue that and to to do that side of it, and to actually stand up there and do it, rather than just hiding in, uh, in books.

[00:42:21] and I still sometimes think, well, that was a silly decision, but it would have been much more sensible, and, you know, there'd be, there'd be so many wonderful things about, uh, if I'd, um, read that phrase differently, perhaps at that, at that moment, I thought, actually, I'll, uh, I'll go down the proper, academic philosophy route or something.

[00:42:41] But, uh, but, but, again, it was one of those moments, one of those little moments of choice. Which, uh, which again, as I say, I'm sure I'm, romanticizing the, the, the moment. And actually, it was one moment in a whole sort of series of weeks and months of kind of turning these different thoughts over in In one's mind, but that, that's, that's how I remember it.

[00:43:00] Anyway.

[00:43:01] Ross: I love it. I love, it's so evocative to think of you in the, the mobile classroom looking at a, a pretty battered copy and, and just looking at those words. So I think if you ever want to use this portion of the recording as part of a, a pitch. For this film that seems to be emerging my anyway. Just give me the word.

[00:43:26] Ben: We need some serious embellishments and editing I think to make it, to make an exciting, exciting film out of, uh, out of my life. Um, but, but yeah, no, absolutely. maybe the whole thing could just be, uh, just be me in that mobile classroom staring at a, at a an old copy of Beyond Good and Evil.

[00:43:43] Maybe that's, maybe that's the film.

[00:43:45] Ross: I'm going to change text slightly because you're speaking and, and unwrapping this for us, it's absolutely fascinating. I'm thinking from an organizational psychology perspective about actors are in a place of

[00:43:58] work. [00:44:00]

[00:44:00] We sometimes don't consider that, that actors are in their workplace. But then through recent conversations I've had and reflections I've had, there is a level of performance in many jobs.

[00:44:12] I was speaking to a chap who's using ACT in hospitality, and his area of specialism was high end hospitality. And he talked about how when people go on shift and they emerge from that, magical room from behind reception.

[00:44:30] They're presenting the public face of that hotel or that hotels.

[00:44:39] And then I start to think about other roles in the workplace where people a certain degree of emotional labor involved. I the one that always springs to my mind is flight attendants.

[00:44:51] Ben: Sure, yeah, absolutely.

[00:44:53] Ross: welcoming people on board and people with, ridiculous requests or complaints or thinking that they own the airline

[00:45:00] Ben: Mm hmm.

[00:45:01] Ross: who irritate me immensely as someone observing this and I think how do they just keep that facade? But I think that's something we'll come on to in the second part. I'm taking us off on another tangent there, Ben. sorry, I'm going to continue a little bit, but is that also the role of leadership

[00:45:20] helping leaders to appreciate they can flex and adapt their authentic style to suit the circumstances in which they find themselves.

[00:45:28] I think there's a definite conversation to be had

[00:45:31] there.

[00:45:32] Ben: Mm hmm.

[00:45:33] Ross: However, I want to just bring us back to one of the standard pieces in people's soup ask you, for a song

[00:45:40] choice. So imagine imagine Ben, that for the next few weeks, possibly a two or three months, you have a song that announces your arrival in a room, whether it's in your home or whether you're going to the supermarket.

[00:45:56] song would play. I wonder if you have a song in mind and [00:46:00] what that might be.

[00:46:01] Ben: Well, I think Hmm. Okay. I think actually, I'll take us right back to the beginning of the con conversation at at this point, uh, because the thing that comes to mind, which is, um, interesting that that's what's the, what's there is, um, let's go back to frozen and do let it do, let it, let's do, let it go, uh, as the, as the thing which is, uh.

[00:46:24] Probably not what I would have expected myself to say in terms of a, in terms of a musical choice, choice for, for me, but I think just from the conversation and where it's gone, I think there's, um, I think partly because I think there's a lot to, uh, there's a lot that's interesting to say about that, about that song, uh, and what's going on for, for Elsa in that situation, but also it, because I think sitting there watching that film, Fed into so much of what we've been, what we've been talking about and where my ideas have been.

[00:46:53] And also, I, and I think, um, another important point about that may, may be again of these, these conflicts that we experience. between, you know, work and family values and how those are, are balanced and things. And there's something about, um, that kind of dual pur dual purpose or that, that moment of connection through, through, taking some time to watch Frozen, um, and how that wasser that was serving lots of values.

[00:47:23] At the same time, and led to some, um, important towards moves in different areas of life. So, so, so, that's what I'll say. I'll say, let it go from Frozen. And after the, the third or fourth time I've entered a room, and that's what played, I will regret my decision intensely. But, but we'll go with it, we'll go with it for now.

[00:47:47] Ross: Beautiful. Thanks, Ben.

[00:47:48] That's it, peacekeepers. Part one of my chat with Ben in the bag. What a guy! And wait until you hear how he uses [00:48:00] act in the theatrical context. Now, we need your help. You can support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science. So

[00:48:09] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

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[00:48:49] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:48:58] and the Laban Malmgren, and the Laban Malmgren, Malmgren,

[00:49:10] Ben: Larben Malmgrum. Yeah.