Welcome to do this, not that, the Podcast for Marketers.

Each episode is packed with quick tips.

They're super short, and at the end, we have some fun.

Let's jump into it, and thanks for being here.

We are back for do this not that podcast presented by Marigold.

And we have somebody I want on the show for a very, very long time.

You probably know her if you know anything about LinkedIn, because she is LinkedIn.

Who do we got?

We got Michelle J. Raymond, who is the founder of B2B Growth co. And really, she is like the LinkedIn Growth Strategist.

The LinkedIn Pages team themselves acknowledge her as the international go to person for LinkedIn company page stuff.

She's co authored two amazing books.

Okay.

One that is exclusively dedicated to LinkedIn company pages.

The first one ever, and that one's called Business Gold.

And the other one's the LinkedIn branding book.

If there's a human that knows more about LinkedIn stuff, I don't know who it is.

I'm so excited for her to be here.

Michelle, welcome to the show.

Oh, my God.

You can be my hype man any day.

I am so excited to be here.

I don't think two humans could be more excited in one conversation.

We're just going to explode from excitement.

All right, before we get into all things LinkedIn and all this stuff, how did this happen?

How did.

How did Michelle J. Raymond become known as the LinkedIn human?

Yeah, it's kind of funny how that happened, because about 10 years ago, I rocked up at a job that I got through LinkedIn, and I spent my career in B2B sales.

Shh.

Don't tell any of the marketers out there I'm an imposter.

And what actually happened was I didn't know anyone in that industry.

I didn't know any of the products.

I had no existing relationships.

And I'd been playing around with a bit of content over on Facebook, and I thought maybe, maybe I could do some on LinkedIn.

So I went to my boss and I was like, hey, can I post some content on LinkedIn?

Because these guys had no brochure, no catalog, no web presence.

There was nothing.

And I was like, how am I going to tell 80 customers spread around Australia about 10,000 beauty ingredients that we sold?

The maths just didn't add up.

I mean, it's the size of the US if you think about our country.

And so he said, is it free?

And I went, I think so.

And he said, I don't care.

Just go and sell and I was like, okay.

So I started to create some content promoting the products that we sold.

And then I went, I'm kind of talking to myself.

I need an audience.

So then I went and built the most amazing community around the industry, globally, because no one else was doing it back then.

And it was amazing.

I did it for fun.

It was like my little side hustle at work.

And I just figured out, like, the foundational things that really make a difference on LinkedIn.

So in 2020, when I had to quit a job, I decided that I was gonna teach people how to sell on LinkedIn without feeling icky, without doing automated relationships or any of those things that make you skin crawl.

Uh, yeah.

And so the rest, as they say, is history.

But for company pages, Jay, here's what happened.

And this is the real story, the one that people probably don't imagine.

When I set up my business, I looked around and all the other LinkedIn trainers in the world were talk about personal branding and personal profiles and showing you how to do that and basically saying company pages were a waste of time.

So I'm just going to put it out there.

I know that's what most listeners are probably thinking, but I looked around and went, no one in the world is talking about company pages, and 70 million company pages exist.

So I'm just going to be the person that says, hey, I think you should pay attention to this thing over here because it's kind of important to build a company brand, and you guys can all fight over the personal branding, and I'm just going to play over in this space.

And I'm so glad that I did, because I get to speak all over the world.

As you said, I've written the world's first and only book on company pages.

And so from that perspective, it's just turned into a massive opportunity for me.

So, yeah, that's how I got to be here today as well.

All right.

I love everything about that, but you're going to have to give us some quick wins, some tactics and stuff, because here's the deal.

I'm one of those people.

We have company pages in my company, but they are like the forgotten stepchild.

They're the billboard that nobody looks at.

They're like the thing you got to have that's like, ah, screw it.

It doesn't do very well, but we need to have it.

So what is everybody.

Because literally, I do mean everybody.

What is everybody doing wrong?

What you.

What are some things you could do immediately that could actually make your company page not suck as Bad as they all suck.

Well, I think the first thing to do is actually give them a bit of love.

Like, as you said, most company pages are neglected and they're just the, yeah, we've got it because we have to, but we don't really want to.

So one of the easiest quick wins you can have is to go back with a fresh set of eyes and take a look and say, does this company page, if I was a stranger and landed here, does it tell people what we do, who we do it for, and what our ideal clients are and the challenges that they have that we solve in no uncertain terms?

And in most cases, you'll find that a page was set up years and years and years ago.

It only takes about 10 minutes to actually set up the page.

It's super quick and easy.

And then that was the last time anyone looked at it.

So go back, take a look at your banner.

Like, could that do with a little love?

Could it be used as an opportunity to promote what you're working on now?

But also the about section on your company page is worth going back and putting some effort.

So what you do, who you do it for and what makes you different is an easy tactic to, you know, use when it comes to your about page.

And from that perspective, why are we bothering with this?

And we're going to go back and also have a look and see, is there any information that needs to be updated or any information that's out of, you know, basically not up to date with your branding guidelines and things like that?

LinkedIn tells us that if you have a whole and complete updated page and you basically post once a week, you'll get up to 30% more weekly views.

So for a small amount of time to give things a refresh, you're going to have a big impact pretty quickly.

All right, so you're going to post once a week.

That's the first rule you're putting out there.

But now I'm curious about something.

Um, is the stuff that you post on your personal page, is that the same type of stuff your company posting on their company page, or are we wearing two very different content hats?

I would say the more that you can almost sneaky company page posts to make them look and feel like personal posts, the better that they perform.

And that doesn't mean sometimes in corporate land, we have to do things like promote events or white papers or all of the other stuff that lots of marketers are tied to within the business.

But ultimately more it looks and feels like personal posts and is humanized and is actually trying to build community with your company page audience, the more it resonates.

Now, it's not rocket science.

Why that works is because we're on a social platform.

It's because we're humans that want to deal with other humans.

But old school company pages, Jay, they pretty much just broadcast at the audience, we have something we want to say, we want to tell you, and we actually really don't care what you have to say about it.

But hey, sign up for my stuff, join my newsletter, download my white paper.

All of those kinds of call to actions kill your engagement on your LinkedIn company page.

So it's time to flip it around, make it in service of your audience.

What kind of content can you create that will help them get closer to their KPIs?

And if you think about it, the more it looks like an ad and smells like an ad.

With lots of corporate branding, what do we do on LinkedIn?

We scroll past.

Because we just go, no, I'm not here for that.

So think about how can you dial down the branding and have it more subtle where the message becomes the hero and your clients become the hero.

Okay, I love that because I think it's so true.

What everybody does with their company pages is they check a box.

Oh, we have a webinar.

Make sure you post it over there because we got to do that.

And all they're really doing is putting out garbage, you know, that, that people want to scroll past.

So I love the idea of putting out content that people actually engage with all this stuff.

So I'm curious though, about metrics.

When you're in charge of your company page, what are the metrics you should really be hearing about?

Is it follower count?

Is impressions, like what do we.

What is our North Star in terms of are we successful?

Yeah.

And I think that's relevant to every single business.

So I have clients that reach out to me that I'm working with.

The CEO and board want them to have the most followers in the industry.

Come hell or high water, that is their target.

And I used to push back and say, look, that's crazy because you could have a big number that's not relevant or you could have a small targeted community.

And I've thought about that and changed my position over time because we are taught on social to kind of accept that bigger is better.

And I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is kind of how social roles and how as humans, we've been conditioned to think that.

So I do encourage people to have A look at follower growth.

But there's also more metrics within that around the demographics of those followers.

So are they in the right location?

Are they the right company size, Are they the right job titles that are following your page?

That really those demographics is the most important part of followers for me.

But I'm not going to lie.

There are so many people that just want to have the most, you know, and so I can't argue with that because it does have a bit of a part to play when it comes to impressions.

Most people right now are probably rocking in a corner and crying, going, what is going on here?

I'm doing the same content that I was doing last year and I'm probably getting half of the impressions that I was getting now.

That's happening across the board on LinkedIn.

30 to 50% drop in impressions in general.

Now that's a huge number.

If you're a marketing manager, you know the company page admin that's getting measured on the page growth.

So if anyone is sitting there thinking, I don't know what's going wrong, and I'm, I'm really, it was working last year, it's not working this year.

That's LinkedIn for you.

And the reason is, Jay, they have this new thing that they are talking about, relevance.

So relevance is making sure the right people see your content, whereas we're so used to reach, which is how many people, and the more the better.

And so it's a big change for people, especially, like I said, if your bonuses are tied back to your KPIs, which is growth.

And this is a big shift on the platform.

Yeah, it becomes tricky for people.

So, you know, don't focus too much on that right now.

But page follower growth and engagement, so how many people are actually engaging with the page are the two main metrics that I think most people look at.

And just one last question on all this page stuff that I'm really curious about, which is when I'm potentially working with a new company, I go to their company page and let's say I see like two posts from the last four months or something like that.

To me, regardless of the engagement, engagement, regardless of their follower count, it's this negative signal in my mind that they're like, they're not with it, they're not on top of it.

They're just not really an active company.

By not posting ongoing on a company page, is that like a negative signal about your company itself?

Yeah, absolutely.

Because keep in mind that people don't just find your company on LinkedIn.

Quite often what happens is they go to Google, they might Google your business name because they might be familiar that you know your company is one of the top three in the industry.

The LinkedIn result for your company page is normally within the top five results on Google search.

So page one for free just by piggybacking on LinkedIn's credibility.

Now if someone clicks on that, you've got two choices.

Create a great first brand impression when they land on your page or they land in a ghost town and think, what the heck is going on here?

And this is what I'm trying to say to people.

We've got to really control how our brand's perceived.

And you can't just, just talk about stuff and rely on your employees to post and say how amazing the company is.

Because employees come and go like.

And so if you just put all of your eggs in that employee personal brand basket, and we know that employees these days turnover roles quite often within every couple of years.

So just relying on that alone is not a good idea.

So from that perspective, it is definitely about creating a great first impression and being active is part of that.

So, as you know, we kind of discussed earlier, a minimum of once per week is what I would say.

And I'm not talking to consultants out here who are small businesses of one or two or, you know, something like that.

For you, it's a different strategy.

But if you have, you know, a few more employees or are planning to sell your business or grow your business in the future, invest now in growing it.

So when you need it, it's there because too many people j, they leave it until they want something or need something from LinkedIn and then they go really hard.

So classic for company pages.

Oh, we've got an event coming up.

What do you know?

The page comes to life.

We're posting like crazy.

But nobody did any work in the lead up to grow followers or grow that thought leadership.

And brands can really be thought leaders as well.

It's so true.

It's not when you're building your company page following, even your personal page following, it's not about what you want to do today, it's what you want to do a year from now, two years from now.

Because it takes time.

It takes effort and time.

All right, I want to pivot and get to something about time for a second here.

You did something recently that I think I need a therapy session on.

I think everybody needs to hear about this.

You are a LinkedIn person.

This is your career.

This is who you are.

And you did something unheard of, which is you paused putting out content for two weeks on LinkedIn, which freaks me out, even saying that out loud, like, I'm scared to do that.

I want to.

I want to pause.

But what happens when you actually do that?

Does the earth stop moving?

I'm still here to.

I live to tell the tale.

My 25,000 followers that I have on LinkedIn, Jay, no one even noticed that I was gone, which was a little bit sad for me.

I'm not going to lie.

Not going to lie.

Part of me was like, ouch.

But it really, whether you have to do it for any reason, sometimes you choose to take time off.

Sometimes life happens and you have to take time off.

Doesn't matter why.

But what I realized is that when you build a personal brand out on LinkedIn and you have been doing stuff for so long, people almost associate.

When I go to LinkedIn, I will see Michelle, I'll see Jay.

And then when you're not there, they don't even realize.

They just assume you're there and the algorithm hasn't shown them.

And so from that perspective, what I found was, and I was nervous.

You know, I build my livelihood on the back of teaching people how to use LinkedIn.

Like, this is my bread and butter.

And I realized that what actually happened was no one really noticed.

I got to focus on what was important and take some time away and focus on what really mattered in my life.

And nothing happened from a LinkedIn perspective.

My numbers will go down.

Of course I wasn't posting.

There's nothing to measure, like, but I just came back and everyone was like, sorry, I didn't realize you were gone, but I feel recharged.

I am excited to be back.

I did miss it, not gonna lie.

But at the same time, I was like, it's so important to schedule these breaks.

And I know when I should do this.

When I sit in front of my computer and I've got, like a head full of content ideas all day, every day, billions of them.

I actually can't keep up.

But I sit in front of my computer and go, I've got nothing to post.

I know that's the burnout sign.

That's the sign I need to take a break.

And I read a really amazing newsletter that came to me from a YouTuber, you know, just yesterday.

And it was all about consistency is killing us.

That trying to do day in, day out is not necessarily consistency.

That consistency could look different.

It could be, you know, every second day, or it means over the space of a year, you're taking a week off every quarter, like, so consistency doesn't have to be day in, day out.

And, yeah, it was such an important lesson.

I always get the best ideas when I go away and take a vacation.

And I'm just sitting there relaxed.

My brain's finally slowed down.

The crazy Sydney life isn't around me, you know, the dog, the catagon.

And I'm like, wow, my brain can breathe again, I can think again.

And I come up with some of the coolest ideas when I give myself that space.

So if anyone out there is kind of slogging it right now, you know, I know my.

I had a friend called Jay who was kind of talking to me about this a bit earlier.

Sometimes a break is the best medicine that we can give ourselves.

Like, we work so hard at this and it's never ending.

And I always think about it and go, if you zoom out, it'd be like judging a whole book on one word, you know?

Like, that is not how we do it for books.

So if you think about it, like, each post is just a word in a book, you know, and over time, no one is ever going to even remember that I took two weeks off.

But, like, the people around me that needed me, they will, you know, and so that's the real important thing.

And I think it's.

You know, I'm glad that we can have this conversation because I think people are really putting themselves into some.

You know, dragging themselves along and putting themselves into a position where they resent LinkedIn.

They resent doing it.

And, yeah, that's the.

The last thing that I want to happen for people.

So I really feel that.

And.

And by the way, I don't know that I think it's not just LinkedIn, it's putting out podcast episodes, emails that you're sending out, whatever the hamster wheel is that you're on.

I know I'm on a few of them right now.

And so this message really resonates because it's not like you are just talking about maybe a podcast episode, because that's like a side thing for you, not your podcast.

Not a side thing.

It's important podcast.

But this is your primary.

This is like.

This is what you do.

And the fact that you of all people can take a pause, it really gives everybody license out there to really think about themselves taking a pause.

I'm curious about something.

When you did come back and you did that first post, not that it matters, I'm just curious, did that first post, get like, no impressions.

Did LinkedIn say, oh, no, no, no, no, you got to build it back up again.

Or were you right back in the swing?

Just, it was like nothing ever happened.

And you've got to think about it from LinkedIn's perspective.

They have nothing on their side that would motivate them to try and punish me, so to speak, or my posts.

Because their goal, and they've said this, you know, in publications, is to get members active at least once per week, right?

So if I've been away and I come back, they're going to want to make me feel good and remind me that this is the place I love to hang out.

I love to come and, you know, check out content from my friends and my connections.

And so they're almost going to reward you for coming back because that dopamine hit is what keeps us there.

And hopefully we'll come back two times a week or three times a week, or in my case, that many times per day and then some.

Why?

Because they've got a financial motivation.

The more you do it, the more ads you watch, the more ads you watch while you're scrolling, looking for all the good stuff, the more money they make.

So realistically, they want you to be successful.

They just sometimes have different definitions of success to what we do.

So important.

I love all this.

All right, one final question here.

This is super random.

We didn't talk about this.

So tomorrow, LinkedIn goes away, disappears from planet Earth.

It's gone.

And you wake up, you're like, oh, no, this is very bad.

I'm now going to double down on this platform, and now I'm going to come an expert in this platform.

What is Michelle J. Raymond going to switch over to now that LinkedIn has disappeared from planet Earth?

I think YouTube would be my platform because there's an element of my personality that I love teaching and helping people.

And so when I think about, if people have a question, where are they going to?

Then I. I think they go to YouTube.

Now.

TikTok, still another unknown for me, to be honest.

I think that algorithm so powerful, I would waste more time than actually do my work.

So I'm a bit nervous of getting addicted to that platform.

So I don't use it very much.

But I love creating content that is actually based on the foundations and tried and proven strategies.

So B2B growth, no hacks is my tagline.

And there's also so much Rubbish over on YouTube about LinkedIn that I'm like, these are really slick productions that are really over promising to people, hey, if you update your profile with these five things, you'll get 10,000 followers in the next few weeks.

Like, I hate that kind of content.

It really drives me to want to create more in, you know, to kind of dispel those myths.

And so I think I would go on a bit of a crusade over there.

But I'm here to also tell you that I am growing my newsletter.

I put that off five years, but I now have my baby newsletter of, you know, 275 subscribers.

So I am doing that because I am freaked out that sometimes these things disappear or, you know, LinkedIn come and take your account away from you for reasons that are often out of your control.

You have no idea.

You may not even break the rules, but they've got so much automation and AI making decisions for them based on accounts.

And so I get worried about that.

So I would make sure I have my newsletter going okay.

I promise this.

All right, Speaking of that, we're going to grow your newsletter following right now.

We're going to grow all of your followings.

Tell everybody.

Besides, first of all, Michelle's easily the best follow on LinkedIn.

That's Michelle J. Raymond.

We're going to put in the show notes, we're going to put this all in the show notes, but tell everybody how to get involved with your world.

Look, I would love for them to subscribe to my newsletter because I do put my heart and soul into that to make sure that you walk away with tactics and things that you can implement.

Jay and I are totally twinning on that because I think that's important.

And so if you go to b2b growthco.com forward slash newsletter, that's where you'll find it.

And I would love people to come and check out my podcast.

If you love this podcast, I think you'll love mine too.

It's called social media for B2B growth podcast and it's all about LinkedIn tips and strategies.

So those two things, if you could come and check it out, I would love that.

Yeah, they're the things I just have found the hardest to build, but the most valuable to me and the most surprising as well, that I actually enjoy podcasting and newsletters far more than I ever imagined.

So, yeah, I'd love people to come and join me over there.

Well, I cannot encourage people enough to follow all of that.

And on LinkedIn, Michelle talks about imposter syndrome, not just LinkedIn stuff.

She shares amazing content.

She's so real, so transparent.

She's amazing and public speaking tips.

She's an incredible public speaker, obviously.

So check it all out.

Michelle, thanks so much for being here.

It is my absolute pleasure.

So I have one last question.

Yes?

Real Housewives of Sydney.

Is that on your playlist?

It needs to be.

Right now I'm watching Real Housewives of Miami.

I don't even know.

Do I get Real Housewives of Sydney where I live?

I don't know if I feel like I don't.

I feel like you'll miss.

I'm going to research this tonight.

Do you watch it?

I'm not going to confess to that on this podcast.

No chance.

All right, now I have homework to do.

I'm very excited.

This is going to be amazing.

So see, we cover the important stuff here.

You're the best.

Thank you.

Cheers.

You did it.

You made it to the end.

Nice.

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