PART TWO MASTER

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 6, Episode 15 of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Sam: it's so easy to get caught up in your head when you're just alone and, um, Going over these problems that you've got or going over these thoughts over and over again, instead of just getting them out there into the world, talking to a colleague, talking to a friend, talking to someone in your family.

[00:00:23] I'm worried about this. I'm not sure what to do here. This happened. What do I do? Actually talking about it. Weeks and weeks have gone by in my life where I just kept things to myself and I didn't share it with anyone and I look back and think how much could I have minimized or completely eliminated the suffering I was going through by just saying look this was going on because I'm sure they would have given me some advice.

[00:00:46] get out of that relationship, get out of that school,

[00:00:50] Ross: Peace you buzz. In this episode, I continue my conversation with Sam Hart. Sam is many things. He's a podcast host, a primary school teacher, a serious sports enthusiast, an entrepreneur, and a proud Brummie, that is, someone from the city of Birmingham in the UK.

[00:01:06] Sam's people soup ingredients are openness, reflection, and exploration, with a side order of flexibility.

[00:01:14] You'll hear us talk about our worries about what other people think about us, and how that overthinking can leave us feeling quite low and withdrawn. In our conversation, we try to normalize the experience and Sam shares a range of practical strategies to help us relate to this type of self doubt in a different way. Sam also shares two takeaways from his own experience And also three insights he's gained from his guests on the Insight Podcast.

[00:01:39] It's a real treasure trove of tips.

[00:01:52] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a [00:02:00] better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular PSupers, thanks for tuning in again.

[00:02:07] We love it that you're part of our community.

[00:02:10] A quick scoot over to the news desk. some new offerings in 2025. My small group supervision program, for those of you using ACT in the workplace, has launched, 1 starts in March. There are still a couple of places left if you're interested, and you'll find the link to all the details in the show notes.

[00:02:27] I'm also planning an open course, where I deliver the training protocol I developed with Dr. Paul Flaxman to people who are interested in navigating their working lives more effectively, considering what matters, and what might be getting in the way in terms of being the person they'd really like to be.

[00:02:43] More news on that soon, so let's crack on, for now, get a brew on, and have a listen to the second part of my chat with Sam Hart.

[00:02:58] Sam, when we were planning for you coming on the podcast, we identified a skill we both have and we thought, wouldn't it be a lovely to have an episode where we talk about worrying what other people think of us.

[00:03:11] Sam: Hmm,

[00:03:12] Ross: Because it's something that we are both quite good at doing. You mentioned in part one how you can, what I would call catastrophize, would you call it catastrophizing?

[00:03:22] Sam: I would or ruminate as well just ruminating as well over there Maybe it's not completely a catastrophic thought but it is just enough of a niggle But then when you keep going over that niggle, it's like a death by a thousand cuts, isn't it? It's just like a little thing that just keeps keeps at you.

[00:03:39] Ross: So we thought we'd do our second part on this topic. And Sam, why is this important to you to share this?

[00:03:47] Sam: I Think partly because I know how much it has Held me back or how much it has just made the experience of my day to day [00:04:00] years kind of Not be as enjoyable as they could have been You know, you know the days or the events or the meetings or whatever or the training that you've delivered whatever it is where you Felt more relaxed and you felt more yourself and it was fun And then you also know the same situations where you were worrying constantly you worried in the build up to it you worried during it and then you walked away worrying about it and you know The same things have happened in both instances, but your experience of them was completely different.

[00:04:32] It's like a little microcosm of life, isn't it? Like we're going through all these things, all these experiences, all these, you know, the highs and lows. And it's all about how we decide to experience it and like what we've put in place to, I don't know, measure and analyze or whatever these experiences.

[00:04:49] And so for one reason, it's important because I know. The effect it's had on me, but also the effect that it's having on so many people as well. it's just another one of those things that's more common than perhaps we realize. It's one of those things that feels so isolating because we think I'm the only person that feels like this before a meeting or before delivering training or, you know, after I walk away from a family meal or whatever.

[00:05:16] And. It's only when you start talking to people that you realize no, no, other people are going through this as well, because we think everyone else is really confident. Don't we? So many people are good at putting on a mask of confidence and proficiency, and I think maybe it takes a bit of maturity and it comes with age where you realize that that person actually isn't as confident as I thought they were.

[00:05:37] And actually, they've got a lot going on in their own lives. And actually, this is, this is Happened to them or whatever, you know, and there's just there's so much going on underneath the surface that we don't realize and so It feels like a good thing to talk about like there's more we've got more in common And also it's something that we can dissect a little bit and it will mean that our experiences will just be that much more You know [00:06:00] joyful richer

[00:06:02] Ross: And I said in the first part of our chat I really value the way you share your experiences because I think not enough men do talk about their own sort of internal experiences. I absolutely agree because I know that, but, more people worry about what other people think about them than we might imagine. So part of our attempt in this part two is to normalize that a bit more. And people might be surprised to hear you and me talking like this. Because in our professions we stand up or we, we host podcasts, we watch television.

[00:06:39] We stand up before groups of human beings and, and share things with them, skills, educate them, help them learn. And yet when people hear us saying we have these, these doubts and these worries and these ruminations and anxieties, they might be surprised.

[00:06:56] Sam: comedian said it but it's something like in an interview. They were asked. Are you nervous when you go on stage and they replied? Of course. I'm nervous. I'm nervous every time and if I wasn't then I would I'd stop doing it because then it wouldn't be of any you know, if I wasn't nervous?

[00:07:12] It means that I've just kind of Yeah. It's there's no joy or reward coming out of it. You know, we get we get nervous and we get, caught up in our own head, and we worry about what people think, often because we're trying to do something of value or we're trying to, you know, help them or turn up for them or, you know, do the right thing.

[00:07:30] And so we're worrying about what people think, because we don't want to let them down or look like we're stupid or say the wrong thing or whatever. And I guess. That's only happening because you are putting yourself out there. So it's like, it's just part of it, isn't it? It's part of being on social media.

[00:07:48] It's part of being a podcast host. And it's funny because that's exactly what I was, going to mention, you know, like scenarios where this happens for me, yeah, when I press share on an episode or, or on a post or something [00:08:00] where I've been a bit vulnerable and I think, ah, was that too much? Was that, did I share too much?

[00:08:04] Is that embarrassing? What are my mates going to say? How are people going to take this? And it's hard because it's a balance because sometimes you do go too far. Sometimes you do share the wrong thing, say the wrong thing and make a mistake. But that's all part of it as well, isn't it? And how do we get better?

[00:08:19] Or how do we learn without putting things out there, making a mistake or whatever it is? Exactly.

[00:08:27] Ross: route to mastery, if there is such a thing. involves putting yourself out there, as you say, and also making mistakes. If we are moving towards things that matter to us, then that anxiety or that worry is a, is a sort of indicator that you're on the right track. People often think if people are doing stuff that matters to them, it just comes easy.

[00:08:50] It just flows out of them. They're just amazing at doing this from, from birth kind of thing. When actually, in probably the vast majority of cases, it's taken years of practice and experience. And practice and experience applies to us relating to those thoughts around worrying what others think about us too. Can you remember how long you've had these sorts of thoughts?

[00:09:19] Sam: I think from very early on, because I think it links to kind of that, like that social anxiety that we mentioned, I can remember from a very young age, you know, pre university teenage years, being really nervous when the focus was on me, if there's a group and people start asking about, you know, what I've been doing or I don't know, some achievement or something.

[00:09:42] I can remember going bright red and sweating. I still go bright red when, in certain situations. It's just really strange. But in certain situations, I can go bright red and get really nervous. And it's like, I don't know, just some switch has been turned on where it's like, Oh, [00:10:00] just everything gets fired up.

[00:10:00] And it's so it can be so excruciatingly embarrassing. And I'm trying to get more of a hang on it, trying to like understand why that is, partly I worry, I think that the dialogue that's going in my head is don't sound like a show off. Don't sound like a show off. Don't sound like a show off.

[00:10:18] Don't sound arrogant. Don't sound arrogant. And so I've always had this thing about don't, don't put yourself out there. Don't kind of oversell yourself, like stay in your lane. Don't be too confident. It's bizarre. Isn't it? It's just bizarre because there are so many people that don't have that affliction You know, there's so you know, there's countries of people i'm, you know thinking about people in america that just don't have that You know, of course i'm talking in a very broad generalization here but it feels like there's more of a culture of kind of like celebrating your wins and being enthusiastic whereas I don't know.

[00:10:51] There's something inside of me. That's Don't get too cocky. Don't think this is all gonna work out because something's gonna go wrong

[00:10:58] Ross: Yeah, that sounds so familiar, were you shy as a child?

[00:11:03] Sam: I think so. Yeah, I think I was mainly shy but maybe with friends kind of groups of friends I was like the opposite of shy. It's like I was making up for lost times in Enjoying being the center of attention when it was kind of close friends. I knew or maybe with kind of a bit of drink in my system, a bit of alcohol in my system.

[00:11:21] Then then I wouldn't mind being kind of loud and abrasive and wanting to make people laugh. But the rest of the time, not so much.

[00:11:27] Marker

[00:11:27] Sam: Maybe. I mean, I'm the youngest of five Children. So I've got four elder siblings, and it's not like this is something that they intentionally placed upon me. They never said quiet and down Sam or ever.

[00:11:39] At least as far as I can remember, but it's like maybe that's kind of internalized a bit like that. That was my role in the family was the younger one, the baby of the family, the quiet one. And yeah, I think growing up, I was more of the, you know, sit in the corner and, and, and stay quiet. Don't, don't cause too much of a[00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Ross: Yeah, there's something also you mentioned about going red, blushing, and I had that, I still have it occasionally, I think it's become much less frequent, and I'm older than you, but it's become much less frequent, but I can remember starting my career in the civil service. And in like my twenties, early thirties, and even those moments where they go, there's a meeting and you have to go around the table and just say your name and what department you're from.

[00:12:29] I would go bright red.

[00:12:30] Sam: Same.

[00:12:32] Ross: Oh geez, man. It's kind of like, what is going on? And bright red, not just to a mild changing in color, but like a bloody beetroot.

[00:12:46] Sam: Yeah.

[00:12:46] Ross: Where I could actually feel the heat. People would go

[00:12:50] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Or people would just say it like, Oh, Sam, you're blushing. Like you're blushing. You've gone so red and you'd be like, Oh, that just makes it worse because now I'm going to just

[00:12:59] now

[00:12:59] I'm going red about going red. Exactly.

[00:13:02] Ross: Cuz and when you think about what that was, it was me saying my name and the department I worked in

[00:13:09] Sam: Yeah,

[00:13:09] Ross: So it's amazing that we've we've we've ended up in this places where we are where we are Kind of putting ourselves out there professionally and we're driven by Wanted to support others, I guess. That's a value I didn't mention in part one. Supporting others, making a difference for other people. I really see that in you.

[00:13:32] Is that one that, that you identify with?

[00:13:35] Sam: it is. And I'm, I'm proud of that as well, that it feels like my, you know, the

[00:13:41] The moral compass or whatever has always been directed towards helping people and not for some reason it was never towards make as much money as possible. Get the nicest car, get the nicest house, go on the nicest holidays. It just wasn't.

[00:13:56] I mean, I'm not saying I don't know why, because my parents very [00:14:00] much instilled that in me, you know. My dad being in education, my mum being in kind of social services and working for the government and then doing other things later on in life. Talking of curious people, I mean, she went back and did a psychology A level, then learned to be a personal trainer, now works in a college helping people with visual impairments and things.

[00:14:21] Ross: Hmm.

[00:14:22] Sam: So definitely people around me instilled that as well, helping people. And that's definitely a. Value yeah, what worth are you putting out there into the world and there was something else I was going to mention and i've completely forgotten what it is just before that I can't remember. Sorry.

[00:14:40] Ross: No, but it'll probably pop back in.

[00:14:43] But please do share it if it does. so let's get a bit practical. In what scenarios do you start to worry about what other people think of you? Can you think of any scenarios? You've mentioned a couple actually already, the, the returning from a social event or a family meal, reflecting on what you've said.

[00:15:01] Any others?

[00:15:04] Sam: that is a big one though. That is a big one. I can remember even talking to my friend the other day.

[00:15:09] Ross: Hmm.

[00:15:11] Sam: friends. Because one way I talk to this particular friend is on Call of Duty. You know, we play online gaming. But that's our time. You know, once a week to have a two hour conversation, which we'd never do.

[00:15:22] I'd never pick up the phone him for two hours. But it's like because it's call of duty. We can just have a chat. But anyway, that's one thing I said last night. Is it normal to walk away from a social situation going? Did I say the right thing? Did I time that right? Should I have said that?

[00:15:36] Should I be more present? Did I check my phone too much? But anyway, that's one scenario for sure. Um, but then others yet. You know, delivering training in a school. I've been the head of P. I've been the head of science. I've had to lead training. I've done other workshops, either in my capacity as a teacher or, myself, you know, the breath work, ice bath workshops.

[00:15:58] Um, I've led exercise [00:16:00] sessions. lots of these things where it can come up and it can not come up as well. Some days I'm feeling really good and confident and it's not happening. But then other days, it does. So it happens in a variety of scenarios like that. Sometimes when I press share on a social media post, sometimes when I share a video clip of myself and I'm like, Could this be misconstrued or whatever?

[00:16:22] Ross: Yeah.

[00:16:23] Sam: So there's loads of options. I think that's what I was about to mention. The yeah, that Awkwardness, like overcoming that awkwardness of putting something out there in the hope that it helps people like the yes, this might be awkward. And yes, I might say the wrong thing.

[00:16:41] But my intentions are good. So I'm going to go for it. Do you know what I mean? So I think as long as you've got the right intentions behind what you're sharing, it's okay to have a bit of that cringe maybe behind it, because you're doing it for the right reasons. yeah.

[00:16:55] Ross: Yeah. I have similar ones, I guess, about pressing publish on an episode when I've edited it and thought, oh God, what did you say that for? Or do you realize how much you say hmm? Or, or wow. And it's just, sometimes as I edit, I think, Goodness me, are you really cut out for this podcast production and hosting.

[00:17:23] But then like you, I think, well, this might be helpful to someone to listen to my guest and to how they're conceptualizing the approach to this problem in life or their, their specialism. So let's, let's go for it. Cause that outweighs those, that sort of inner dialogue in my mind that is going, you're an imposter, you're an idiot, you're a fool type thing.

[00:17:48] Sam: mm-hmm

[00:17:49] Ross: other things, like you say, social situations, training, but you're absolutely right. Some days I'm like delivering a workshop to a group of leaders, for example, and I'm on [00:18:00] it. And sometimes I actually look back on those and think, Do you realize how senior those people were and how important they are?

[00:18:06] And you were holding that room for a day or sometimes two days. Blimey, could you do that tomorrow? And I just think, I'm not sure I ever did that. so it depends on the circumstances and the context I guess we're in. I And connecting to what matters to us in that situation. And you'll hear my language there, it's really taking me to act.

[00:18:29] And you know how my podcast is heavily infused with act. And I know you've come across it. But when, when did you first discover act, Sam?

[00:18:39] Sam: I think it was kind of early podcast. Guess I don't think it was before that. I think I knew I was interested in psychology and, you know, I'd heard certain terms. I'd heard, I'd heard about CBT and, and other things, but I can't remember when I first. Came across act, but I think it must have been when you came on the show, when Ray Owen came on the show, when Alison Maitland came on the show and kind of, yeah, all these people that that's their background and that's the way they frame things.

[00:19:09] And that's when I kind of, you know, all you and others, they, you all seem to just every time I talk to you. you know, the conversation was framed in such a way that appealed to me and made sense. It was like, yeah, that resonates that seems to be effective. That seems to be a good way to examine things.

[00:19:30] So let me find out more. And so I think I talked to you, you know, who should I get on the show? And I looked up other people, you know, connections and who are these other people in this act space? So.

[00:19:41] I'm by no means an expert and I don't understand all the lingo and everything, but I just like to think I can hold my own with, with, with psychologists and have these conversations and any ones that, any, any that I do.

[00:19:54] You know, I love I really enjoy the conversations and just the approach that they have to all these different [00:20:00] aspects of life because I've talked to Ray Owen about grief. I've talked to Allison about sports psychology and the way we approach events and races and also the transfer from that to everyday life as well.

[00:20:12] And it's just it's fascinating and it just makes sense to me.

[00:20:15] Ross: Yeah, yeah, I, I think I heartily agree that when I, when I discovered ACT, it was at uni and going back to do a master's as a mature student and a lecture with Paul Flaxman where he was describing the sort of basic principles of ACT, like moving towards what's, what matters, relating differently to those thoughts, like what are people thinking of me?

[00:20:39] And it kind of liberated me and, and led me to reflect on life thinking, well partly in the early days thinking, well what could have been if I hadn't got in my own way so much. But also then just keeping practicing applying these tools to current situations and I'm sure I'm doing things now that I wouldn't have done.

[00:21:00] I think I can safely say this, that I wouldn't have done without discovering the skills and the techniques from ACT. They've really supported me in moving towards what matters to me and exploring what matters. Because quite often I think in our careers, and I don't, I don't look at you in this way, but sometimes in our careers, we're kind of on autopilot for a whole career.

[00:21:22] We get a job in like Dare I say, the civil service, and don't get me wrong, in my civil service career I had a really great time, I did lots of different things, but it reached a point where I felt I'm not having the impact I would like to have, and that's not in a big headed way, that's just one of those itches you talked about, could I support people more effectively from the outside, and that, that was the conclusion I finally reached, it took a while.

[00:21:50] Sam: It reminds me of one of my favorite questions to ask at the end of an episode to my guest, which is what's the one thing you wish you'd have been taught as a child? And so often an answer kind of comes [00:22:00] up that's related to everything that you've just mentioned. I wish I'd just live my life more in tune with my values.

[00:22:06] I wish I'd learned to understand my thoughts better. I wish I'd learned to, um, I'm struggling for an example now, but you know all that kind of thing and then yeah, what you say about kind of just going with the flow. It's just so easily done. Isn't it in the modern day where we just? Go with the flow because we're just so busy.

[00:22:24] There's so much input. There's so much data coming in that we don't have any time to examine our thoughts and understand. Why am I feeling stressed every time I come home from work? Why did I snap at that colleague? Why am I so tired? Why am I sleeping well? Because there's just so much input. There's so much busyness.

[00:22:40] There's so many people to take care of that we don't have any time. And one thing that I've There's In the past year become I've been really interested in is, well, the work of James Hollis. I don't know if you've heard of James Hollis, who's kind of Jungian, isn't he? And so, um, he, he talks about like when these feelings come up and how like, kind of like the midlife crisis and these things, how and he comes at it like I'm reading a book at the moment, which is under Saturn shadow.

[00:23:07] And so that's more talking about the, um, his approach to men and experiences of men at this point in life where you've kind of got to a point where you go, Oh, yeah, I don't think I've quite lived the life that I wanted to live. And maybe that explains why all of these feelings are coming up now.

[00:23:24] So I think I might have just kind of Done a huge jump from where we were to to this, but I just kind of think it all links. It's so it's just interesting and maybe people listening. Other people can, you know, might see this in themselves. Like if you've got these things are stirring up inside of you, that that's You know, well, why is that?

[00:23:43] And it's like, it's normal. It happens. And maybe it's it's worth being a bit curious about. This is what you and other people I've had on the show have taught me. Like, be curious about that. Don't judge it. Don't ignore it. Don't suppress it. Like, what's going on there? What's that about? Because I felt that in the last year, it's been a [00:24:00] year of, you know, Probably feeling my most anxious, my most low, my most kind of completely like rudderless.

[00:24:08] Like, what are you doing with your life, Sam? And I think it's, you know, this stuff kind of comes up and you've got to like, examine it and understand it. And, and then of course make a bit of a plan of action as well.

[00:24:19] Ross: Yeah, and I think it is part of the process. We've spoken about this before, but when we are experiencing that sort of inner discomfort, we can either try to just ignore it and move away from it. Keep going. Don't stop to reflect on that because it's a little bit scary what might happen, but then stopping to explore it can leave us with quite a bit of head scratching

[00:24:42] Sam: Yeah.

[00:24:43] Ross: and reflection.

[00:24:46] But it takes me back to what you said in part one is just taking that action. So what, let's think practically, what helps you get unstuck when you are having this thought about worrying about what others think about? What helps you get unstuck?

[00:25:00] Sam: Yeah. It's such a good question. I'm glad you asked it. Um, So one thing I mean if we're talking about the um, Like I don't know I've got something coming up a workshop or a podcast and I'm worried about what people think like am I doing the right thing etc. One thing that really helps me for sure is just a bit of preparation.

[00:25:20] I've definitely learned in the past few years, a little bit of preparation can make me feel so much better. A little bit of kind of a rehearsal, a little bit of going over topics, a little bit of practicing what I'm going to say, which may be before I would have thought, I don't need to do that. I'm just going to go for it.

[00:25:37] It's like, no, actually just a bit of rehearsal, go over it a few times can just help like quiet in the mind and like help you relax just a little bit. what else helps me? Well, one thing that came up Something you mentioned earlier, which I can't quite put my finger on now. What is you said, but it made me think about like when [00:26:00] you're Worrying about a presentation or whatever it is.

[00:26:03] You're doing the Like going back over past feedback and going back over like the messages that you've received or or Or I don't know, a testimonial or something like that. I mean, a couple of people I've had on the podcast have talked about, uh, like a big me up book. Well, Ima Draper, a dating coach, actually, um, she, she talked about this, a big me up book, you know, in your low points in your points where you're feeling, Like I don't know not motivated or like an imposter like go back over your big me up book You've got all this evidence of when you performed really well Oh, that was it when I think you were mentioning about when you presented to all of those people you know all these senior people and you go wow, I just did that and it's like Spending some time with that feeling afterwards going.

[00:26:49] Yeah, I just presented to that many people and it went well and they complimented me and I've got the feedback as well. So kind of gathering a load of evidence as well. But then you can refer back to, I think is really useful to, community as well, like friends, family, like, it's so easy to get caught up in your head when you're just alone and, um, Going over these problems that you've got or going over these thoughts over and over again, instead of just getting them out there into the world, talking to a colleague, talking to a friend, talking to someone in your family.

[00:27:23] I'm worried about this. I'm not sure what to do here. This happened. What do I do? Actually talking about it. Weeks and weeks have gone by in my life where I just kept things to myself and I didn't share it with anyone and I look back and think how much could I have minimized or completely eliminated the suffering I was going through by just saying look this was going on because I'm sure they would have given me some advice.

[00:27:46] get out of that relationship, get out of that school, whatever it is, but instead just went with the flow, just carried on. So I think those are a couple of things, like a bit of preparation, your big me up book, you know, gather evidence, gather [00:28:00] feedback, talk to people as well. Those, those are things I think have had a, an effect on me.

[00:28:07] Ross: Lovely. Because I think that really helps us

[00:28:10] bring it outside of our minds. Like you say, if it's just rattling around in there when we're ruminating about it, it gets bigger in my experience and And I think if we're talking about, we're also doing, going back to that normalizing. Because I, I work with, in groups and individually with leaders and these are highly skilled, really experienced, effective leaders, and they have doubts and concerns and thoughts that are less than helpful for them. And from the outside, you could never imagine that. So I think the more people understand this is part of what it's like to be human, and I know leaders who I admire greatly, and they have learned how to relate to their unhelpful mind in ways that are really healthy and effective.

[00:29:00] Sam: um,

[00:29:01] Ross: And not getting so derailed all the time by those thoughts. And I think it's always a work in progress. Because the way you and me have been talking, I think it's, it's like, Oh, it's not that we're done. Oh, we've, we've nailed this now. We're not bothered by those thoughts about worrying what other people think about or anxiety about the terrible things that might happen in the future.

[00:29:23] Hell yes. Well, I certainly still get them, but more often I can relate to them in different ways to allow me to pursue what matters to me. Do you, do you feel

[00:29:37] Sam: And as you say, it's a work in progress, but I think when you hit that realization, when you start to experience, Oh, a thought is just a thought. And actually, just because I've like the thoughts come up, you're useless. You can't do this. You should probably give up. Even though that thought has come up, maybe when 10 years ago it would have come up and you know, I've gone, yeah, okay, [00:30:00] let's just forget it.

[00:30:00] Quitting

[00:30:00] Sam: Let's stop this. Now it's like, You have that thought come up and like, where's that come from? What's that about? Is this thought going to pass? It probably is because this has happened before i've told myself before you can't do this and then I did it you told yourself before you should probably quit but then you carried on And the thing that you were working on got even better and it kept growing and you kept improving So you could have quit but actually you kept going And so yeah, just that that little separation It's just, is invaluable.

[00:30:34] And that might be that internal dialogue, talking to yourself, but it might be talking to someone else. It also could be just writing it down, couldn't it? Like, I feel like I should quit. I feel like I'm not good at this. Here are all the reasons why. And then you read it on paper and you're like, hold on.

[00:30:50] I'm not sure I quite believe that actually. That

[00:30:52] Ross: Yeah. Yeah. All too often we buy into our own thoughts and treat them as a hundred percent true or a hundred percent worthy of our full attention. And you're right. Ways to get that distance, writing it down, sharing it with a friend. It can help you change the impact of those thoughts. And like you say, absolutely it's a work in progress.

[00:31:14] And Sam, there's an area of your life where you really, well there are other areas, but there's one in particular recently I've noticed from your socials, is where you're really The development of new habits. It's, it's, it's supposed to, forgive me if I don't get this quite right,

[00:31:32] but you're talking about, I lead a boring sort of life.

[00:31:36] Sam: Yeah.

[00:31:37] Ross: And let me, let me go on because I try and explain it because you say you've got these routines, you're getting up at the same time, you've got these routines that support you and what you want to achieve in life and your well being around fitness, around diet, around sleep. I wonder if you could just talk a bit more how you've developed those.

[00:31:58] The 'boring' life

[00:31:58] Sam: Yeah, sure. I [00:32:00] guess it's just, and I call I say they're boring, isn't it? Because it's kind of compared to what your teenage or early twenties self would have thought is living an exciting and happy and wildlife. It's like I'm doing all the opposite of that. Basically, there's another funny post kind of related to this that I see where it's kind of like, okay.

[00:32:19] Yeah. Okay. Grandma, you told me to go to bed early, drink lots of water, and eat all your vegetables. Now I understand how right you were, kind of thing. You know, and I've kind of butchered that, but it's something along those lines. The, yeah, just the, the boring, regular, routine stuff. Seems to have had the most impact on me.

[00:32:40] So, yeah, going to bed and waking up at the same time. Kind of limiting how much alcohol I drink now. You know, I've done long periods without drinking at all. Now I might have one or two beers apart from at the Christmas party recently with my gym and I had too much and I definitely paid for it. Um, like eating lots of whole foods, less processed foods, um, Yeah, wearing a sleep mask at night.

[00:33:04] Feeling more vibrant and energetic

[00:33:04] Sam: I think, you know, 10 years ago, if you'd have pictured myself with a sleep mask on, I would have laughed. But, you know, it makes a difference. So all these seemingly simple, boring things actually just can help you feel, more vibrant, more energetic, more present. But it goes against maybe what we're told is a good life and an exciting life.

[00:33:26] An exciting life has to be fueled by alcohol or worse. You know, you have to be going out and staying up late to be having like an exciting and happy life. You have to be traveling all the time and taking wonderful pictures wherever it is with these amazing backdrops. And it's like, I've done that. I've done all of those amazing things.

[00:33:45] I've had like some really high highs, but then it feels like they're always. Balanced out with quite a low low and I feel like I'm at a point in life where I just want I just want it to be steady. I just I enjoy this kind of quiet contentment [00:34:00] It's a real joy to be living like that where you've just got your routines in place You know who you are a little bit better.

[00:34:06] Sorry if I just hit the mic. That's more yeah, that's just a

[00:34:09] Ross: Yeah,

[00:34:11] Sam: fun existence

[00:34:13] Ross: and it allows you to do more of what matters to you.

[00:34:16] Sam: Yes, yeah

[00:34:17] Ross: It's kind of creating those conditions around you that allow you to wake up feeling invigorated and, and looking after your instrument

[00:34:27] Sam: Yes.

[00:34:28] Ross: and role modeling for others. How it can be. I think that's it. That's it.

[00:34:33] Role modeling for others, how it can be.

[00:34:36] Sam: Oh,

[00:34:36] for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think about I think about kind of my young nieces and nephews and am I setting a good example for them? And I'd like to think so. Yeah, like these are the things that could be helping you feel a bit more healthy and happy. There is something I'd like to add to this though, which kind of slightly goes against it.

[00:34:56] Maybe in the what I'm experiencing more. Yeah. Now, alongside these great habits that have done me so, you know, served me so well, but also there's definitely been periods where I've been too attached to those habits. You know, I've got to train today and if I don't, I beat myself up or I then train and I overtrain and then I don't feel great or I've got to wake up and I've got to meditate because that's my habit that I've put in now.

[00:35:25] And I've experienced where I'm kind of being dictated to by some of these habits. And I think we're seeing a bit of, a revolution around this, maybe on social media. Some of the people that I follow are getting a more kind of balanced view of like, yeah, put these habits in place and try them and experiment and see what effect they have on you.

[00:35:48] But also don't worry about. If, you miss a day or something goes wrong or you're out in a meet have and you're having a meal and there's a pudding brought out and you eat it like don't [00:36:00] beat yourself up because the benefit that you had from enjoying that meal and that dessert with, you know, your friends or family far outweighs, you know, the health implications or whatever that it might have on you.

[00:36:10] Habits dictated by gurus

[00:36:10] Sam: So I think we just needs a bit of balance because there's a lot of the kind of You know the discipline bro types out there that are like you've got to do this wake up at 5 a. m. Have a nice bath Do your meditation do your breath work then go out and train and lift weights and if you're not you're a loser and It's like some people need that they do.

[00:36:30] Yeah, need to be kind of grabbed and kind of given a bit of shake and like given some motivation and discipline and some boundaries. Absolutely. That's what some people are needing. Maybe a lot of young men are needing right now. But at the same time, it can go too far, perhaps, um, And people are just, yeah, kind of living their life dictated to by these habits, all these kind of gurus that they're looking up to.

[00:36:52] And that's just another form of kind of, you know, self affliction or something, or it's just another form of beating yourself up. It's another form of control. And so I think, yeah, we want to put these things in place experiment, but you also need to be cautious and you need to adapt and be flexible.

[00:37:10] Like

[00:37:10] Ross: Yeah,

[00:37:11] Sam: thing, isn't it? Be flexible.

[00:37:14] Ross: And that stance, I so agree Sam, and that stance of, I would describe it as curiosity and kindness towards yourself. Like if you miss a day, or if you had a, if you have a pudding, that's okay. Because I absolutely agree that what you got from having that pudding and great company is, it's wonderful.

[00:37:34] And it's not a reason to chastise or punish yourself or be critical of yourself and be harsh. You can be kind and reconnect with those habits but also just keeping an eye on them so they don't become this rigid cage in which you then operate.

[00:37:49] Sam: It's like having a glass of wine as well. Sorry, it could be a dessert or it could be a glass of wine where you could be so kind of strict. No, no alcohol. I've heard that alcohol is really bad for me. So I'm just going to completely [00:38:00] cut it out. And I've done, you know, as I said, I've done months without alcohol and it feels good and it's fine.

[00:38:06] But also just that like one glass of wine with friends I don't want to beat myself up with about that because I mean temp tim ferris calls it a social lubricant Maybe maybe that's just a phrase that is actually out there. It's not his phrase, but like that yeah, just that one glass of wine just helps you maybe relax and relate to your friends and family a little bit better and you have just a bit more of a Fun rich conversation just because you've got a little bit of alcohol in in your system

[00:38:32] Ross: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:34] So, Sam, you've spoken to many great guests. I wonder if there are three insights that you would share with our listeners that stick in your mind.

[00:38:46] Sam: Well, I think this is very much linked to everything that we've just talked about because I mean i'm quite pleased with the the quality and the integrity of the guests that I have come on the show And I say that because All of them, they, as far as I'm aware, you know, they come on and they, they're so, um, professional, they're not trying to sell anything.

[00:39:08] They're just trying to give advice that they think helps people. And then like, you start to spot commonalities. And one of the commonalities. That I see in all my guests is it's the simple things that make a difference Like none of them are coming on and saying you should get this app. You need to buy this thing You need this special special mattress or drink or whatever it is like whether it's a sports psychologist or a dating coach or I don't know a nutritionist.

[00:39:38] It's like the overlap in the advice is it's the simple things that matter you know eating whole foods Sleep is important. So get a sleep mask sleep in the dark and a bit cooler room than your other rooms, you know Do exercise that you love it's not like they're saying You should do this one specific workout.

[00:39:59] This is what's going to [00:40:00] work. You're going to get abs and big biceps. If you do this, like none of them are saying that they're saying, do what you enjoy and do what helps you move regularly, because that's what will have the most profound effect on your health and well being. So I think the biggest insight is, yeah, it's just that that the simple things make a difference.

[00:40:19] So. It takes a bit of time to, unpick that and, and I don't know, re evaluate your relationship with some of the more complicated bits of advice that you've been told throughout your life around diet and around exercise and all that stuff. Yeah, unpick it and then try these just simple approaches, but do them consistently and give yourself time and, and see what effect that, they have.

[00:40:46] I think that's one of the, the main insights. Yeah.

[00:40:50] Ross: Wonderful.

[00:40:51] any other insights from podcast guests? Mm,

[00:40:54] Sam: I think another. Theme that comes through is some version of know thyself. Isn't it? And this is I mean, this is common in psychology and religions. It feels like everyone's saying the same thing like understand yourself. So again, if it's talking to a psychologist, if it's talking to a specialist. Coach or a mental fitness coach or a doctor or someone that's interested in longevity and happiness It's like it all starts from that awareness of knowing you knowing your values something.

[00:41:26] We've talked a lot about

[00:41:27] Ross: Mm

[00:41:28] Sam: yeah, knowing what matters to you knowing like understanding the conversations that are going on in your mind and Getting a grasp on those a bit better Better and dissecting them being a bit curious of them about them. So that's one thing know yourself And then the other thing is definitely connection community something that I need to Well need might not be the best word, but I should or no.

[00:41:51] No, even that's not great Is it I want to work on next year? Is is connection is being more open with people being more [00:42:00] connected to people seeing people in real life more Because again, it's something that is recommended in so many different episodes from so many different experts in whatever their field that if you want to exercise more, join a running club.

[00:42:13] If you want to improve your diet, you know, talk to friends, get a recipe books, join a Facebook group where they're sharing healthy recipes. It's just so important, but also. Not just the advice that they're trying to give my listeners, but also the benefits that they're giving me as well. Like these guests are providing connection.

[00:42:33] They provide support for me. They provide inspiration like off their own back. They're keeping me motivated and sending me messages or commenting on posts saying this is great. Keep it up. Um, And so, yeah, directly or indirectly that all these guests are reminding me of the importance of connection and community.

[00:42:53] Ross: Thank you, Sam. So we've got, we've got that doing the simple stuff. We've got knowing ourselves, and we've got that connection. I love it. And I absolutely agree. I learn so much through my podcast guests as an individual. It's kind of like learning out loud. so I'm going to bring us towards the close.

[00:43:16] I could continue talking to you for another couple of hours, but um, is there a workplace related kind of takeaway that you'd share with our listeners just to finish on today?

[00:43:27] Sam: For sure. Now, this isn't based on any science, any studies. This is purely based on my own experience. And, you know, talking of lessons that we wish we'd have been taught, talking about looking back and thinking about how we could have acted differently. There are two ways. In kind of the workplace that I would would change how I acted in the past or what I'd done or my behavior.

[00:43:53] And one of them is to not take myself so seriously. Yeah, just have more of a sense of humor about things and be more relaxed [00:44:00] than not. You know, every meeting doesn't have to be with a frown and, you know. that are super serious, like you can have fun, even when you're dealing with really serious topics and outcomes and impacts that you want to have on children or other people or whatever it is.

[00:44:16] That doesn't have to get lost just because you're trying to create a warm, humorous environment where you're, you know, sharing jokes and it's relaxed and I don't know, you know, I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's just don't take it so seriously and you know that one way that that comes out with me and the way i've worked with children in the past like You can make a math lesson fun, even the most boring math lesson Not by changing the presentation the powerpoint or the resources or whatever but just by joking around and not Like just not treating it.

[00:44:52] So seriously like You This can just be fun. Whatever it is. This can be fun. so that's one And then the other one It's kind of almost the opposite to that in a way, but it's not put up with other people's can I swear? I won't swear but okay. Well, I'll just like a mild crap. We'll just go with that But not tape not put up with other people's crap.

[00:45:12] That's what I look back on and I wish that I had been more assertive Put boundaries in place better. And of course, this has to be done with care, professionalism, compassion, all that stuff that we all know. But at the same time, there are so many people in the workplace that need to be called out on their nonsense because there is bullying, there is Unprofessionalism, that is inappropriate behavior.

[00:45:38] I've been on the receiving end of all of those things. And I I look back and think I should have been so much stronger, but I was so worried about rocking the boat. I was too embarrassed about making a fuss. I kind of almost wanted to protect the people that were not treating me. Well, which is just bizarre.

[00:45:56] Isn't it people that don't treat you? Well, but you're like, oh, they probably got stuff going on in their [00:46:00] own life. So I need to be really careful. Actually, I'm trying to get to a point now where. I like firmly but compassionately say this isn't okay stop

[00:46:09] Um,

[00:46:10] But it's taken me until 37 years old to kind of get that message and I wish out of growing up you know be more assertive Call people out more

[00:46:19] Ross: Uh, Um, Sam, thank you. Love that. I love that it's related to your own experience and thank you for putting yourself out there. Thank you for coming on the show today. And thank you for watching. for role modeling and your constant learning. I'm really grateful for it and for what you do in the world.

[00:46:41] So thank you very much for coming on the show.

[00:46:44] Sam: Honestly, that means so much coming from you. It really, really does for us. I really appreciate it. And, you know, talking about how little bits of motivation can keep you going. And some just provide you with a little bit more fuel than others. Don't they? You know, a simple message might provide me with one week's fuel.

[00:47:00] But what you've just said probably provides me with like the next three months. So I appreciate that mate. Thank you.

[00:47:06] Ross: Oh, and I mean it from the bottom of my heart. So thank you, Sam.

[00:47:09] Sam: Cheers, man.

[00:47:14] Ross: That's it folks, part two of my chat with Sam in the bag.

[00:47:18] And you'll find the show notes for this episode at peoplesoupedocaptivate. fm, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can email at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com On the socials, there are some changes to our profiles. I've stopped posting on Twitter because I no longer value the place it has become. I've also retired my Facebook page as my confidence in the platform has diminished greatly. I'm still posting on Instagram at people. soup, and I'm on LinkedIn too, as well as a new account on Blue Sky. Just search for my name. Now, more than ever, you can help me reach more people with the special PeopleSoup ingredients.

[00:47:58] Stuff that could be really [00:48:00] useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic, and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Peasoopers, and bye for now.

[00:48:15] Sam: Like i'm loving it i'm loving talk to you talking to you I'm worried that i'm going off on tangents and babbling and talking too fast But of course you always worry about that. Don't you

[00:48:24] Ross: Yeah, and for me, this is, for me, I'm just praying that all the tech is working and I'm not helium man or anything, uh, and, but, um, yeah, this is wonderful.