Steve Palmer [00:00:00]:

Alright. Here we are. Lawyer talk. They Don't Teach You That in Law School, Italian style.

Troy [00:00:04]:

Luigi.

Steve Palmer [00:00:05]:

Luigi Mangione. Is there do you say the e or is the e silent? Mangione or Mangione?

Bella Mata [00:00:11]:

I'm not the, renaissance.

Steve Palmer [00:00:12]:

We need Paul Scarcella down here, our colleague, to tell us how that works. You have to be from Youngstown to understand that one. But anyway, so they don't teach you that in law school where we are lawyer talk podcast.com, taking on, stuff. You know, you guys in law school by the way, we've got Troy here and Bella here, our resident law school experts. And, you know, you guys are getting the education, but, nah, you know, the real world application, is, sometimes lacking and maybe for good reason. They don't have they can't teach you everything. No. But that's why we're here because we're gonna help.

Steve Palmer [00:00:42]:

And and, you know, your guy your questions that you guys come with are awesome because they you know, you can tell it. They they've got you thinking in law school about sort of the backbone of the standards. But then there's, like, one the more you know, the more you don't. And you start to think, well, wait a minute. How does that work? How is that not double jeopardy? Which is what we're gonna get to here. And how does that how possibly could this be going on? And then, you know, you probably have you guys suffered from the, like, the Thanksgiving or the dinners with your family that where they're asking legal questions, you have no idea what the answer is?

Troy [00:01:11]:

Kind of. Sometimes. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:01:13]:

I get that still. They're like, well, I'm trying to adopt. I'm trying to blah blah blah. What is it? Or somebody asked me about easements one time. I'm like Mhmm.

Bella Mata [00:01:20]:

I it always is, like, the minor stuff that, like, not in the area of, like I I don't know. I'll get noncriminal questions. I'm like, I have no idea. Right. Like, or can your can your lawyer draft this will? Can he, like, deal with this neighbor's fence? And I'm like, I like I don't I don't know. A lot of most time, I'm like, it's not really worth the money.

Steve Palmer [00:01:36]:

Yeah. Do you wanna pay? Right. Yeah. If you don't wanna pay, then you don't yeah. But, yeah, so somebody asked me to do an easement thing the other day, and I'm just like, look. I could figure this out, but just call somebody who does it. Mhmm. You know? Look.

Steve Palmer [00:01:48]:

I know what an easement is. I know generally how it works. How do I file an easement in a small county in Southern Ohio? I have no idea. I'd have to figure it all out. And I I could, but

Troy [00:01:59]:

I don't want to. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:02:00]:

I don't want to. Alright. Well, anyway, one of the topics that has been sort of this yeah. It's funny how stuff makes the news. I mean, me and Jerry, how long ago did he shoot this guy?

Troy [00:02:12]:

I won't No. Not actually. November?

Bella Mata [00:02:16]:

I wanna say, yeah, November sounds right. Are we talking about Thanksgiving anything?

Steve Palmer [00:02:21]:

Yeah. I think it was before Thanksgiving even. Yeah. You're right about that time. So Yeah. There's an execution style. Luigi just executes the CEO of UnitedHealth and executes. I mean, if laying in wait, murders him, and it gets all this fanfare, there's people saying, well, yes, you know, go applaud because they he's killed somebody.

Steve Palmer [00:02:40]:

And I would think, you freaking morons, he's killed somebody. You know, there there's a guy who didn't have Christmas. There's a guy who didn't have Thanksgiving. There's a guy who's not gonna get to see his kids, grow up. And I don't care what your stance. I look, I I don't I try not to get political on this. I don't think this is political. To me, this is just human.

Steve Palmer [00:02:54]:

Mhmm. You don't kill people.

Troy [00:02:56]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:02:56]:

I like, they they find find a different way to address your grievances. Don't you don't execute people. But anyway, he's been charged Luigi has been charged with murder in New York State Court.

Bella Mata [00:03:06]:

Mhmm. Yep. And, we're gonna we're gonna try to cover 2 things here because one's gonna be his arraignment. The the his attorney brought up some interesting defenses. But the first thing I wanna touch on was on December 18th, an FBI special agent made a criminal complaint in federal court

Steve Palmer [00:03:20]:

Mhmm.

Bella Mata [00:03:20]:

On Luigi. And I was kinda confused. The federal criminal complaint, is that the same as, like, a state criminal complaint? Like, when a cop comes in and gives probable cause, is that pretty much what it is on the federal end too? Okay.

Steve Palmer [00:03:34]:

So what you're talking about is this. There are 2 ways you get charged. We we deal with criminal complaints in both misdemeanors and felonies, but we're you're you're talking specifically about felonies. And there are basically 2 general ways that felony charges, are instigated. The first would be a grand jury convenes, meaning there's a, I don't know, host a room full of people, usually 20, 30 people in federal court. I don't know how many they bring in. But, the prosecutor presents a case, maybe calls witnesses, like police officers or other even civilian witnesses, sometimes just reads complaints or, reads, reports into the to the grand jury and says, alright. Who thinks that there's been a murder? Here's the elements of murder.

Steve Palmer [00:04:13]:

Who thinks? And they get a vote. Boom. We've got a murder charge. Now you're indicted on murder. The the rub there is that's a that's a secret proceeding. It's very difficult to even get access to transcripts from grand jury grand jury proceedings. A defendant does not have a right to go testify in grand jury proceedings. I, as the defendant's lawyer, don't have a right to be there, even know it's happening.

Steve Palmer [00:04:34]:

Sometimes I'm invited. Every now and then you get in there's a few counties that used to do this where no matter what, they would invite your client to go testify in the grand jury. I've I've done it maybe once once, and it was a self defense type case. And it was I don't wanna say it was wired in, but the prosecutor was sort of sympathetic to my client's cause. But generally speaking, it's it's a secret proceeding. They get an indictment and guy charged gal charged with a felony. The second way is called a criminal complaint. And, you know, not every state is gonna have the same terminology here, but that we'll just talk federal.

Steve Palmer [00:05:08]:

A federal criminal complaint Troy, you already described it. What was it?

Bella Mata [00:05:11]:

It's a probable probable cause. It's a motion for probable cause and imagine there's probable cause hearing in order for a judge to then indict the

Steve Palmer [00:05:21]:

So what happens? A federal officer or in a state officer, maybe observes or has facts developed that are sufficient to warrant a charge, a felony charge. That officer or agent in federal court is then going to create an affidavit, and they're gonna swear out a complaint that says, I hereby say that this guy has committed the following crimes. And then often and now pretty regularly in federal court, you'll see an affidavit that goes along with it, a statement of facts that goes along with it. And the statement of facts is designed to establish probable cause. Interestingly, that's the same probable cause that the grand jury was deciding. So in the secret proceeding, the grand jury decided there was probable cause. In the public affidavit, there's been an establishment of probable cause that then has to be verified if it's gonna continue along the complaint route by a judge later. We'll get to that.

Steve Palmer [00:06:16]:

But we have as citizens, one of the protections we have is you is probable cause is required to charge somebody the crime. Any ideas why? Like, what's the basis?

Troy [00:06:31]:

Just so you're not, like, pressing, like, charges for, like, frivolous

Bella Mata [00:06:38]:

I I I'd agree. Like, frivolous, you have some reasoning as

Steve Palmer [00:06:41]:

to what

Troy [00:06:42]:

is be some grounds.

Steve Palmer [00:06:43]:

Our rights are almost always tied to, overreaching government action or corrupt government action. We don't want a corrupt government actor, a prosecutor, to be able to unilaterally charge people with crimes and prosecute. The idea is there should be an independent review to determine whether there's probable cause. The prosecutor says so, but there's gotta be at least some independent review. Now the old saying is prosecutors couldn't diet a ham sandwich. You know, they're the ones in charge of the of the proceeding, and they can get an indictment. But at least something, you know, they're like, you have a right to a grand jury proceeding, and returning something called a bill of indictment, meaning a document charging somebody with a crime formally after a grand jury has reviewed it and at least voted on it that and establish sufficient probable cause. On the criminal complaint side, it's far more public.

Steve Palmer [00:07:39]:

The grand jury meets in secret. The criminal complaint then proceeds openly. Guy gets charged you get charged by way of a criminal complaint in federal court within a day or so. They're gonna just sometimes I get a call that day. Hey. I heard you represent so and so. We need you here at 2 o'clock over here in district court, and there's something called an initial appearance. An initial appearance is where a judge informs my client what he's charged with and what the possible consequences are, and we have a bond hearing.

Steve Palmer [00:08:07]:

We we have some some sort of consideration of whether my client's gonna be detained. Sometimes often that's continued for a full blown detention hearing, where there's background checks and other things. And there's also the federal rules on this I'm not gonna dig into, but you federal federal practitioners understand. But there's often there's something called a detention hearing, which is really a bond hearing. And, but the idea is you drag the person into court so there can be some judicial review over the process. Then if it's going to head on down that road as a criminal complaint, the court will schedule something called a preliminary hearing or also known as a probable cause hearing. A lot of courts will call, a lot of jurisdictions call it a PC hearing or probable cause hearing. That is designed to do what the grand jury did, except now it's a judge.

Steve Palmer [00:08:56]:

And so preliminary hearing would work this way. You're charged by way of a criminal complaint, within a certain time frame, they have to get you in for probable cause review or preliminary hearing, where the prosecutor now is gonna have to come into court, call witnesses. The defense has a right to be there in public, and cross examine witnesses. There are different rules in different jurisdictions about whether the rules of evidence apply and how exactly, things are supposed to go down. But at a preliminary hearing, I love them because I get to hear the evidence. And that's why prosecutors don't love them because I get to hear the evidence. Yeah. And and not just because they don't wanna share the evidence.

Steve Palmer [00:09:33]:

I'm not impugning bad motive, but it's pain in the ass. They gotta get their case together quicker.

Bella Mata [00:09:36]:

I think I have witnesses. You have subpoena. Like, people gotta show up.

Steve Palmer [00:09:39]:

People gotta show up. I get to cross examine agents Mhmm. And ask for their reports and and and deal and I get inform I get early discovery in a case. There is in Franklin County, Ohio, there has been one preliminary hearing the entire time I've been practicing law, which was since 1996. Mhmm. I have been November 90 yeah. November 95. Anyway, I We're

Bella Mata [00:10:02]:

not keeping track. You're fine.

Steve Palmer [00:10:03]:

We're not keeping track. But there's been one preliminary hearing. There is a a case, a very famous case. There was a highway shooter who down in the south side of Columbus was perching on various places down in on 270 and and shooting drivers, while they drove down the highway. This I mean, it was scary stuff. It was like sniper stuff, and they had a prelim in that case for one reason or another. They didn't have their I don't know why they ended up doing it, but they did. But most of the time prosecutors dismiss cases or they directly indict them before they have to do the prelim.

Steve Palmer [00:10:34]:

So, like, around here, they call it, I got I got a future. Guys will say, I got a future. And they don't even know what that means. But what that what they're really saying is, I was charged by way of a criminal complaint, but then it the prosecutor dismissed it before a preliminary hearing and before the prosecutor's office had a chance to indict it. So it was dismissed for a future indictment, meaning it'll probably be indicted at some point, but we're not gonna go through the rigmarole of a preliminary hearing. Now why that process? Any ideas?

Bella Mata [00:11:06]:

How I would view it is they'd wanna do that to maybe get the guy arrested if they think he might be a flight risk. So you're thinking, let's get this guy cuffed up, and then we can get the indictment. But we just wanna do it now. Like, we don't wanna wait to get a grand jury together and do all that. Like, we just need to.

Steve Palmer [00:11:19]:

Yep.

Bella Mata [00:11:19]:

We will at least get him in jail tonight. That's how I would view it.

Troy [00:11:23]:

Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:11:25]:

Yeah. So think old John Wayne movie, the old Rooster Cogburn movie. In the beginning of that movie, he's arrested I don't know. I I don't remember who the guy he arrested in the first scene of that movie, but it might have been Lucky Ned Pepper. I I don't remember. But it there's a character he arrests. He drags this guy into court, and they have essentially a preliminary hearing. And, you know, old rooster Cogburn John Bay John Wayne in his crotchety old way is saying, well, I shot him and blah blah blah.

Steve Palmer [00:11:50]:

And then the but they don't establish probable cause, and the guy is released. But I think what really happened there was a preliminary hearing. Now the problem is, like, think old west or think small counties. They don't always have a grand jury sitting around to indict somebody. So the idea is you can charge somebody by way of a complaint, get them in custody, conduct a preliminary hearing, and then hold them and bind them over for an indictment in the future where they're held. So now they're bound over, and they can be charged, and later indicted, but there's been a probable cause review that justifies keeping the guy in detention or holding him with whatever or even if he's released, there are conditions. So they hold him over, and they're bound him over. And now he can be held or at least monitored under supervision for an indictment in the future.

Bella Mata [00:12:38]:

So that makes a lot of sense to me. The the promise Luigi, I don't think, is a flight risk because he's in jail already. So that's why I'm like I understand why you do a criminal complaint before indictment to try and get him in under arrest. That's what it says about a a criminal complaint. It's like, oh, we'd like to arrest Luigi. And I I just think it's weird. It's like he's already under arrest. What what do you mean?

Steve Palmer [00:12:58]:

Well, you know, I don't so the real question is why are the feds getting involved in a state court murder case? Yes. Yeah. What do you think? I I don't I don't profess to have all the I got some ideas. But

Bella Mata [00:13:11]:

if I had to, like, just shoot ideas off the hip, maybe they're just it's national coverage. They wanna be involved. They're thinking they can do it better than the state. I'd I

Steve Palmer [00:13:20]:

Maybe they're worried about what the state's gonna do with the case.

Bella Mata [00:13:22]:

Yes. Yes. I think that's a problem. I mean, they they put the counts in the criminal complaint. There's 4 counts. There's stalking, stalking, murder through use of a firearm, and firearms offense. That's the 4 counts.

Steve Palmer [00:13:34]:

Well, this is worthy of a little bit of discussion before we answer the question about why the feds are doing this. It's not it's not obvious that the feds have jurisdiction over most crimes. You know, in order to have federal jurisdiction, it used to be, like, well, you have to cross state lines or, you know, the Mann Act or whatever. But generally, the federal US code, which is the federal criminal code, is designed to deal with federal offenses. And fed the feds have jurisdiction over what's the big jurisdictional trigger in federal court. Do you guys have con law yet?

Bella Mata [00:14:00]:

I mean, I have con law. I mean, it has to be like, a constitutional issue. That's how I just always seen it.

Steve Palmer [00:14:07]:

And what's what's the clause? Do you guys remember the clause that that basically triggers most federal jurisdiction?

Bella Mata [00:14:13]:

I feel Commerce? Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:14:14]:

Commerce. Commerce clause. Right? So if it if it impacts interstate commerce, in theory, Congress can regulate it. And by regulated, I mean, they can pass laws dealing with it. So a lot of federal crimes have to do with interstate commerce. Like, think drug trafficking. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:14:28]:

Now think bank robbery because they're federal institutions. You know, that it's like the feds have jurisdiction over these things. Now generally speaking, this kind of street crime is is left to the states. Yeah. They they, you know, murder states deal with murder cases all the time, not the feds. And there's only, like, a handful of ways, maybe 10 ways, I think. I had a federal murder recently or I had to research this recently. And there's, like, a handful of ways how the feds can can take over or can charge somebody with murder.

Steve Palmer [00:14:55]:

And a lot of times, it has to do with murdering a federal agent, committing a murder on state or on federal property, like in a state park or federal park, or an Indian reserve,

Bella Mata [00:15:05]:

like, that kind of deal?

Steve Palmer [00:15:06]:

Maybe. And then, your status as a as a federal employee, maybe. There's there's there's a few of them, but it's not ubiquitous, meaning it's not like state court where they're gonna have jurisdiction over any murder. Most states will have jurisdiction over murders. So here, the feds have taken over a murder case, and one of the ways apparently is stalking and then committing a murder as a result of stalking under this charge that they have accused this guy or Mangione with. But why then? Why why you know, so they can do it. And that that's true of a lot of things. So somebody could be charged in state court with selling buying, selling drugs, and they can also be charged in federal court with buying and selling drugs.

Steve Palmer [00:15:45]:

Usually usually, there's some sort of comedy, not comedy like funny, but comity, like agreement, understanding between the federal and state about who's gonna take it. And and around here anyway, there used to be a lot of back and forth. I think they cooperated a lot and maybe less than they used to. But, you know, it used to be understood, say, on a, this come this came up a this would come up a lot on, child pornography cases. There was a there was a a joint federal state task force in certain cases would go to the state level, certain cases go to the federal level, and that could greatly dictate maybe in ways you would think are the opposite, but that that could greatly dictate what happens with the case. You know, there are times it might be better to have a dope case or drug case in federal court than state and vice versa. But anyway Being on a

Bella Mata [00:16:34]:

child porn task force sounds like a brutal job.

Steve Palmer [00:16:36]:

Well, you know what they do. They have this there's a there's computer software that somebody's created that monitors they they tag images. So what what they have are these, images that are known to be child pornography, meaning it's horrible. I mean, this stuff sucks, so we'll just talk about it. There's images that have, underage kids performing sexual acts or naked or presented in bad ways. And those are tagged with, data references or whatever code is with it. So, you know, they they can follow they they tag them and then follow those images.

Bella Mata [00:17:13]:

It's like tagging animals in the wild

Steve Palmer [00:17:15]:

pretty much. They call them through the ethernet or through the Internet. And they and, this software can tell where they're getting downloaded and where they're going. And so that's the you know, they their people, this job is to go monitor that stuff.

Troy [00:17:26]:

Wow.

Steve Palmer [00:17:28]:

But, you know, that that that people get charged with for downloading or possessing child pornography and, you know, those things. Somebody's gotta decide where the case is gonna get prosecuted in federal or state court. It can be both. Mhmm. It can be both. But why do it in both places? It just seems like such a waste.

Bella Mata [00:17:43]:

I didn't think you could do it both places. That's like, when this is going on and the state's talking about we're gonna continue prosecuting him in the state and then, like, now the federal wants to take it, I was like, how can you do 2 and 1? Doesn't make sense to me.

Steve Palmer [00:17:56]:

Right. You think double jeopardy.

Bella Mata [00:17:57]:

Yeah. I mean

Steve Palmer [00:17:58]:

But double jeopardy applies to the same governmental entity. So the same entity can't put you twice in jeopardy, but a different entity, in theory, can. So in theory, you could be charged with bank robbery in state court. And for the same bank robbery, you could be charged in federal court. It doesn't happen much.

Bella Mata [00:18:13]:

He was arrested in Pennsylvania. So in theory, Pennsylvania could still go after him too? Well, for what crime? I think just the fire like, what they caught him with, the firearm, fake ID, money.

Steve Palmer [00:18:23]:

If he committed crimes in Pennsylvania, he could be prosecuted in Pennsylvania. Now sometimes you have, like, this call it, like, the Bonnie and Clyde thing where they're just going state to state to state or or say in one state rather, a county to county to county. We have multi county indictments. Theoretically, venue could apply in any one of those counties or jurisdiction Mhmm. Is concerned the same for this, could apply there. But often, there's an agreement. The counties will sort of say, look, you take it all, and we're gonna any case that happened in Fairfield County, we'll just let Delaware County deal with it, or vice versa. Sometimes it's prosecuting both, and we're sort of playing, you know, matchmaker.

Steve Palmer [00:18:59]:

You know, it's like, so and so said they do this. Well, yeah, but she said over here in this case, they would do this. Would you do this? If they do that, I've done that. I mean, I've had plenty of situation. Like, look, he's gonna plead guilty in Delaware to this case. How about you dismiss yours, and we did we add a little extra in Delaware, and then I call the Delaware. Hey. They said they'd dismiss if you just add a little extra here.

Steve Palmer [00:19:18]:

I'm trying to wheel and deal the whole case. It gets confusing if they don't work and play well together, and not all counties do. And here the feds get involved. And I you know, maybe they don't trust what the states are gonna do with it. I don't know. Maybe maybe they're worried that that New York doesn't have a handle on this thing. It may be, you know, we we took apart, I think, on one of these shows, the New York, murder charge and and what made it murder and what didn't make it murder, aggravated versus not. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:19:43]:

Maybe maybe it's more severe and based on some factual nuance in the federal courts. But somebody in federal court wanted the case. And Yeah. What I don't know, what I would like to know is whether what communication occurred between the federal, prosecutors or agencies and the state prosecutors agencies that resulted in this. Because, I mean, can you just imagine the state court prosecutor and you'd see you pick up the paper the next day and wait a minute. You guys indicted him too? Yeah. I didn't know that was gonna happen.

Bella Mata [00:20:11]:

I mean, that I can imagine being frustrating. I I imagine there would be communication. Like, that's what they'd be really frustrating. They're, like, trying to do your job and then You

Steve Palmer [00:20:18]:

would think.

Bella Mata [00:20:18]:

Right. Yeah. Yes. I would think. I mean, I'm You

Steve Palmer [00:20:21]:

would think that the feds would be courteous enough to pick up the phone and say, hey, what are you doing with it? We're gonna take it. Yeah. There's another big case this occurred on, but it was after the fact. You guys one probably the

Bella Mata [00:20:31]:

biggest case of your lifetime. Biggest case of my lifetime. Feds took over. What state? You're gonna give me the state at least? No. What?

Troy [00:20:42]:

You know, you just guessed?

Bella Mata [00:20:45]:

Shoot.

Troy [00:20:47]:

I don't know.

Steve Palmer [00:20:47]:

It only it only, like, triggered race riots for weeks weeks weeks on end.

Bella Mata [00:20:52]:

George Floyd

Troy [00:20:54]:

got taken up by the feds?

Steve Palmer [00:20:55]:

Shavan the yeah. Derek Chauvin. Oh, I'm over civil rights. After he was prosecuted in state court, there was a federal prosecution. And I

Bella Mata [00:21:02]:

think he

Steve Palmer [00:21:02]:

ended up cutting Because

Troy [00:21:03]:

he was a police officer?

Steve Palmer [00:21:04]:

A civil rights violation.

Bella Mata [00:21:05]:

Yeah. I do remember the civil okay. Yep. I had I mean, I don't think that even got, like I don't think the federal park got any coverage, at least to my to my knowledge.

Steve Palmer [00:21:15]:

I watched it. I think he cut a deal in federal court, for one reason or another. But, you know, that case, that was one of those cases where the feds took it. Like, they really really wanted him to be guilty, I guess. But that, that happened in that case. And it's happened in a few that I've worked on. But most of the time, I worked on another I think it was, you were here for the tail end of it. It was a, it was a homicide case that was being prosecuted as a drug case in federal court up in Toledo area.

Steve Palmer [00:21:45]:

Yeah. And it didn't make much sense why and how all that happened. We sort of got through it. I'm not gonna go into the depths of that case because it's crazy. But, that started as a state court murder case and ended as a drug case in federal court. But there, at least, the the the state court let it go and let the feds take it. Mhmm. And one of the things that we had to worry about throughout that case was whether even if I won the case in federal court, was he was my client gonna be prosecuted right out of the frying pan in the fryer in state court.

Steve Palmer [00:22:13]:

Yeah. And you have to worry about that because jeopardy on one doesn't attach to the other.

Bella Mata [00:22:16]:

It's just kinda crazy to think that. But, I mean, it it I mean, it makes sense, I guess. I just think it's kinda be crazy to be charged 2 different areas to fight 2 different trials. I would want the government to communicate with each other. I'd want the prosecutor to work with the federal government. You would think? I have I mean, like, I worked for the government. I understand. Everybody thinks it's like I think the McDonald's meme is, like, very good where it's, like, the picture of the Big Mac and, like, what you think the federal government is.

Steve Palmer [00:22:41]:

Right.

Bella Mata [00:22:42]:

And then it's the picture of the Big Mac, like, just absolutely destroyed that they answer you, like, how the federal government actually operates. It's like and I it it was always just a meme in the military. I was like, yeah. I was like, everybody thinks it's, like, the most smoothest running operation ever. Everybody just all in cahoots with each other. And and, literally, you know, I I can't even access the Wi Fi here. Like, it's just it's it's terrible.

Steve Palmer [00:23:01]:

Well, you had a you had another question you sent me, which is about the arraignment?

Bella Mata [00:23:04]:

Yes. So if you wanna move away from the federal, I think that mainly got me the next step then is the judge there's there's gonna be, like, an arrest issued by the judge if they find that there's probable cause. Right?

Steve Palmer [00:23:16]:

Alright. So in federal court, there's a criminal complaint. They the the federal court will bring in the defendant and conduct an initial appearance. The federal court will then schedule something called a preliminary hearing or probable cause hearing. And if the court finds probable cause, the case will be held. The defendant will be bound over for indictment. Meaning, now the time frames are sort of there's relief on the time frames for the federal government to actually get an indictment, and they can take their time, convene a grand jury, and indict the guy. If it it so that's happening in federal court.

Steve Palmer [00:23:49]:

And all the while, I think Mangione has been indicted actually in New York, where he has been charged and actually formally indicted. And now the case is proceeding. Now once once somebody's indicted, the courts in both federal and state, they have to conduct something called an arraignment. An arraignment is basically a time where the defendant enters a plea Yeah. Either guilty or not guilty. Yeah. So you

Bella Mata [00:24:14]:

you came forward on the state one on that arraignment, plead not guilty to everything. He was kind of, it was kinda crazy. Him and his, like, the attorney, like, matched. It was, like, the big meme. They had, like, the exact same outfit. And I was weird. But you you ever, like, do that with clients? Like, yeah. Let's match.

Troy [00:24:30]:

Let's let's I'm going

Steve Palmer [00:24:31]:

to federal court. I'm wearing a blue suit.

Bella Mata [00:24:33]:

That's a real blue?

Steve Palmer [00:24:34]:

I like to wear a blue suit when I go to federal court. Okay. Not always, but that's why I try to. Red, white, and blue.

Bella Mata [00:24:39]:

And the attorney raised some, like, interesting arguments. I don't think it's crazy. It kinda reminds me of the Koehberger though, where arguments, prejudicial, there's no way to get a fair trial here. Brought up the statements by the mayor, which was the exact same things that Kohlberger's attorneys brought up for change of venue, and talked about the perp walk and, like, all this. And it kinda was had me guessing. Is is there ever a situation where a client a defendant can have no fair trial in the United States? And what do we do then? Do we just I mean, look In theory.

Steve Palmer [00:25:11]:

I in theory, is it possible? I I guess. I've never there's never been such a case, and there probably never will be because we're not gonna let somebody go because it's impossible to give them a fair try. It's just not gonna happen.

Bella Mata [00:25:22]:

Yeah. I know. I mean, I was thinking in theory, though.

Steve Palmer [00:25:27]:

I was just I think I think like Lin Lindbergh kidnapping, OJ Simpson, Leopold and Loeb,

Troy [00:25:35]:

Menendez.

Steve Palmer [00:25:36]:

Menendez. He was the guy who killed his wife and threw in a San Francisco Bay. What was that guy's name?

Troy [00:25:42]:

Oh, with the children?

Steve Palmer [00:25:45]:

She was trending, I think.

Troy [00:25:46]:

Netflix show about

Steve Palmer [00:25:47]:

Yeah. After you. I forgot. Anyway, but, If Netflix

Bella Mata [00:25:49]:

is making a show about it, it was obviously big enough, you know, that

Steve Palmer [00:25:52]:

I'm drawing a blank on his name. But people you guys know his name. Anyway, like, those are huge cases that all were tried in the United States and, you know, whether the trial was fair, who knows? But, the the trial happened, and this one will happen. Mhmm. So at the arraignment, the defense here apparently was already sort of laying the seeds or planting the seeds of a change of venue type of argument, saying it's not gonna be possible to give my client a fair trial here in this jurisdiction. I think that will fall on deaf ears, but we we shall see. And then, you know, once he's out of that frying pan, he's back in the federal fryer so that he's not gonna get anywhere with that.

Bella Mata [00:26:30]:

I could play the co burger episode though. You kinda said the exact same thing when I brought the change of venue too though. And

Steve Palmer [00:26:35]:

they changed it. Yeah. They changed it. So who knows? But yeah. So at the arraignment, you can either enter a plea of guilty, not guilty. Sometimes, it's a yes for a continuance to have your client evaluated for things like insanity. Mhmm. So you ask you request additional time.

Steve Palmer [00:26:50]:

If you don't think your client's competent and, there might be some issues there, you ask for an evaluation. But yeah. Generally speaking, arraignment's just procedure.

Troy [00:26:58]:

Okay.

Steve Palmer [00:26:58]:

And, on the indictment, again, there'll there'll probably be another discussion about bond and whether your client should be en route. And then once you plead not guilty, the case goes. You know, discovery occurs. You file demands for discovery. The government has to give you information. The court conducts pretrial hearings if you're challenging evidence on through motions or otherwise. And then ultimately, the case goes to trial. So that's what Mangione has in store for himself, not only now in state court, but also federal court.

Steve Palmer [00:27:25]:

So it can happen, and it is happening. And I think we should track it. We should keep watching it.

Bella Mata [00:27:30]:

Yep. So next update is just see what the federal side does and then now state side discovery. It's gonna be a long

Steve Palmer [00:27:35]:

It'll be interesting to see if the feds get it together soon enough to avoid a prelim, but I'd love to see the preliminary hearing. So anyway, this is lawyer talk. They don't teach you that law school, Italian, Mangione style, Luigi. Check us out. Lawyertalkpodcast.com, where you can get a backlog of all our shows. You can ask your own questions. You can go to all the socials, leave comments. We get back to you there.

Steve Palmer [00:27:56]:

If you got a topic that you want us to cover, we will do it right here at LawyerTalk off the record, but on the air, at least until now.