Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Here's today's episode.

I am really happy to bring in a wonderful guest.

Her name is Dr. Gilly Khan and she is a clinical psychologist.

She's based in Atlanta and specializes in neurodiversity, emotional regulation, and she's just written a brand new book called Allow Me to Interrupt.

A Psychologist reveals the Emotional Truth behind Women's adhd.

She is a mum as well and understands ADHD from a lived experience.

So I'm really excited to welcome Gilly to the podcast and break down lots of topics that I have in my notes.

And I think the first one that I wanted to kind of go straight into was about female friendship.

ADHD and female friendship.

And so many of us experience the difficulties, the nuances that sometimes we just can't put our finger on.

And it leads into so many of the topics that you've written in your brand new book, which has just come out, which is pretty much based on RSD and emotional regulation.

First of all, welcome.

Second of all, why do you think these impact our friendships so much when we understand ADHD a little bit more?

I'm really excited to talk about this topic today because when I started doing research in graduate school and even before graduate school and college, my research focused on friendship and more so in children and adolescents.

But now that I am an adult and I work with a lot more adults, you know, I have a better understanding of how friendship kind of surfaces and what are kind of the intricacies of interpersonal relationships in friendship in adults too.

And it's very clear that many aspects of ADHD can also influence our relationships.

You know, not just friendships, but in my book I talk about how the female brain is a social brain.

And I reference the book the Female Brain a Lot by Luann Brizendine.

And I know from that, my study of friendship previously, that what's important or the types of relationships that we gravitate to differ between the sexes.

So when you look at male friendships, just the way that boys or men hang out with each other and how often they stay in touch with each other, that's very different from females.

Even in adulthood for women, relationships tend to be more dyadic.

Girls also spend time in groups, but their friendships also focus on forming those one on one bonds.

So it's very normal to see two women getting coffee and catching up on life.

And when men, like my husband, for example, and I'm sorry to stereotype, but it's a stereotype for a reason, because this is what the research shows.

But when men hang out, they will go watch a football game together and it might be like more than one, you know, like a few friends hanging out.

And so boys, in terms of like the friendship in children, you see that boys tend to hang out in groups and their relationships tend to be more shallow.

That doesn't mean that they're low quality.

It just means that they're spending time with each other and there's less talking and learning about each other.

There's less depth, but it's still highly supportive.

And boys and men tend to be content with that.

Whereas with women, relationships are a lot more difficult and nuanced.

And you even see that in the way that it shows up in conflict.

Like how do boys and men argue with each other directly?

Girls and women tend to disagree in indirect ways.

Like they'll use passive aggression or gossip about each other, which might ruin the other person's reputation.

And so language plays a huge role for females versus for males.

Now, how does this tie into ADHD or neurodiversity in general?

We know that emotional dysregulation plays a role for people with adhd.

And you're.

If, if you're emotionally dysregulated, you might be a little bit more unhinged in what you say.

And so both, you know, in the case of males and females, that would cause a problem because men maybe would be more likely to become angry and directly say something.

Angry at someone that they're mad at versus, you know, with females.

Maybe a secret slip or they gossip or they get so angry that maybe it does come out too.

And then that's considered unacceptable in terms of like, gender norms because girls are expected to be polite and not to be so direct.

Yeah, thank you for explaining all of that.

And as you were talking, I was literally thinking about so many different scenarios because, yeah, even though they are sort of gender stereotypes, they, they do fall into probably what a lot of us can Recognize and see.

And again, this isn't sort of like vast research, but a lot of the women I've spoken to who find out that they are neurodivergent later on in life have similar stories of difficulty in.

In friendships.

Not quite understanding why we didn't fit in.

Like, we felt like an outsider.

There was a need to mask and people please.

And they often hung out with boys, you know, growing up because boys were just a little bit less complex and look more direct and they were just kind of like able just to be who they were without judgment and maybe not quite understanding the social dynamics, the female social dynamics, the hierarchy, which does play out from a very, very young age.

You know, I saw it with one of my daughters who really suffered with rsd and she, at the age of sort of like two or three at nursery would come home and say, so and so's left me out.

Why would she not let me play?

I don't understand it kind of like beds into us, doesn't it?

From a very early age.

And I think this is my, you know, hypothesis that we as women, neurodivergent women, we do prefer direct, honest conversations.

I don't love small talk.

I prefer to go straight in and have like a deep conversation within, you know, within minutes.

It's painful for me to have a coffee with someone and all we do is skirt around holidays, kids, homework, schools, that type of thing.

I would much prefer someone to says to me, I'm really struggling and this is what's going on and I really need help and I or I do the same.

But that's often isn't the dynamic of a female friendship.

And then we can feel like we're the outsider because we can be too much or we don't give in a way that is socially accepted and all these different things.

And I do think it is important to break it all down because then we can understand and we can validate ourselves and most importantly, find our tribe.

Because I've seen it before when ADHD women are together.

It's chaos, it's fun.

There's humor, there's laughter, there's tears, there's noise.

People are talking over each other, interrupting.

But at least we feel that there's a connection, an authentic connection.

I'm just wondering what you think about that.

I guess maybe from your insights, more from the clinical side as well.

Yes, 100%.

I can relate to all of that personally.

So we understand each other.

The first step would be to find each other, right?

Like, and to put a bunch of ADHD women together.

But I think, you know, since people who are neurodivergent are in the minority, it's hard to find your people.

And so a lot of us, especially when we're late diagnosed, end up feeling like there's something wrong, but we can't exactly pinpoint what it is.

But I was thinking also in terms of like the sensory component piece of it is like you hear so many different conversations going on and there's really so much social nuance that goes into, especially when you're trying to fit in with a group of girls that already know each other.

It's like when do you jump in and you can really get lost in your head and self critical.

So I think there's this big like sensory overload component.

And then even sometimes when I go out with people I am comfortable with, but it's a lot of people, I tend to be very quiet.

Yeah.

Not necessarily because I'm anxious, but because my head is like listening to this conversation and then this conversation and this one is boring, this one's a bit more interesting, you know, but you get so caught up in your thoughts that you don't even chime in at the right time.

Yeah, totally.

I mean, I get that.

And it is interesting, isn't it?

Because I think maybe we have felt this social discomfort like you say, we overanalyze.

There's so much going on inside our head saying, have I taught too much?

Have I taught too little?

Do I need to be more outgoing?

Do I need to listen more?

All of this and there's so much mental chatter that we actually can't enjoy being in that, in that company if we are actually with the right people.

But also with, with women and girls, we have sort of been socially conditioned to.

You need to be part of a big group and you need to have lots of girlfriends and you've got to be there for everybody and you've got to support people.

And sometimes the way we are sociable is much better.

One on one.

And being in a big group, we get exactly what you said then we find that quite overwhelming, you know, from a sensory perspective, but also being able to contribute or to talk.

And I just wish that we could be more open as women even from a very young age and say to our daughters and say it's okay, like there's nothing wrong with you if you don't want to hang out in a big female group.

You don't want to go out for dinner with 10 women.

You don't want to go on holiday with all these women.

And I'm only realizing this now and I don't know if it's like just exhaustion, like I'm just.

But I'm much better when there's just two or three of us and we can go, we can really get into the nitty gritty and we can really talk.

It just feels like women just, it's okay.

Like you, you get the permission to have friendships the way they work for you and not according to what you see on TV or what you have been perceived as growing up, that you've got to hang out with lots of people and that's the way to do things.

I'm interested to know a little bit about how we can be more self aware in these dynamics because sometimes we're in a life that we can't blow up and we can't just go, right, I've got adhd, that means I'm changing all my relationships and changing all my friendships.

Because sometimes our friendships go back a very, very long way.

And they may not be, you know, the people that we connect, connect with, but they might be people that we love and you know, we want to hold dearly, but maybe we want to be more authentic with.

And that is what I think many of us battle with is moving into this chapter of, okay, I'm now understanding there's neurodivergence there, which is why there's been so many difficulties.

How can I show up authentically in these friendships now?

Yeah, I mean, this answers may be a little bit different.

Okay, so I think there is stuff that you can control and then there's stuff that you can't.

But even the stuff that you can't sometimes just happens to work out and it's a blessing in disguise.

ADHD is an issue with performance, not knowledge when it comes to relationships and social skills.

Like we know what to do in social interactions.

The problem is with actually carrying it out in the moment.

So, you know, it's like I can sit here and tell you what you should do, what you should do differently, but then it would be like preaching to the choir because you already know what the right thing is to do.

So we could talk about things that you could do to prevent a fire from starting.

Like if you, you're feeling angry or you're feeling very emotional and you know that something not socially acceptable, it's about to come out.

You know, what can you do in that situation to calm down and then return?

Because staying there and telling yourself, well, I should be doing this is not going to work because of the impulsivity and the issues with executive functioning.

But I was going to say also that there are probably environmental factors.

You're bound to have oopsies.

That's what ADHD does.

You're bound to.

And I know a hundred percent, like, there were moments where I thought I felt safe with someone and I was like, I can ask this question, like, this person is my friend, and man, did that go sour.

And, you know, I just asked and it didn't work out.

But also, I think that you probably wouldn't want to be friends with someone where you can't just ask questions.

Right.

You were saying that you feel more comfortable asking questions and being open with people you talk to, not having surface level conversations.

And so I think naturally, it's sort of like all of the people who would not fit you very well kind of get funneled out.

It's like a strainer.

Right.

Unless you get older as well, I think.

Yeah, exactly.

So, like, you screw up, but also you kind of didn't because you were yourself, you were testing the waters and then that person went away.

But it's okay because that means that you can't be yourself and it's hard for us not to be ourselves.

Yeah.

So I feel like the people who stay are the ones who are probably the most similar to us, the least sensitive.

Like, they're sensitive.

Right.

But they also understand that if you say something, you don't necessarily mean it, you know, coming from a bad place.

And they could just point that out to you.

Like they could say, well, the way you said it kind of hurt my feelings.

But I know you didn't mean it like that.

And then you can talk about it instead of, you know, them dumping you as a friend.

Yeah.

It's so interesting, isn't it?

Because ADHD in women has not been a conversation for that long.

You know, really over the past five years, it's become a lot more topical and a lot more women are realizing they're neurodivergent in some way.

Whether it's there's this autism, dyslexia, adhd, the combination of where maybe anxiety and OCD and depression have sort of sat in their lives and they've not quite understood it.

And we seem to gravitate towards people who are quite similar to us, the ones that have stuck by, you know, those.

Those friendships that has been tested and they are still there.

And I've seen that there seems to be like a ripple effect of one person having the diagnosis, talking about it in their friendship group and realizing that, oh, that's why we're so similar.

You know, we both love spontaneity and we love a bit of chaos, but we also love creativity.

And we're, we've changed our career quite a few times, but we're also prone to lots of sensitivity and worry and anxiety.

And it is interesting to see that maybe subconsciously we've gravitated to our tribe and now we've got the language to be able to articulate why we've kind of stayed with those people and maybe why the other ones, like you say, have sort of just fallen, fallen away.

But it doesn't help still when we do have these sensitivities where we do feel maybe I think RSD is, I think fomo, fear of missing out.

When people go, you've got such bad fomo or you're always, you know, you always feel like you're not being included.

That is 100% RSD.

And that does manifest, I think, quite specifically in women.

I don't really hear of men getting fomo.

And would you say that is part of the gender structure, that we think we need to be inclusive or we have to include, or we have to be included?

I mean, I'll give you an example some, you know, if I found out a group of my friends have gone out for dinner, they've not included me, that hurts.

But there's probably a reason for it and I have to be really self aware because I can spiral and then go, they've left me out.

That's.

Do they not care about me?

Like, is what's our friendship based on?

And I might be like, that's it.

I don't want to see them again, but I have to unravel that myself.

And that feels quite hard.

And I know that a lot of other women go through that, so I guess it's.

It lands back on us, doesn't it?

For we have to be self aware how that can show up in these dynamics.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

I think knowledge is power about yourself, understanding yourself.

But then I also think understanding the research also on friendship and social dynamics is helpful too because then when something happens, you're just like, well, they're human beings and this is something that humans do.

But yeah, I think in terms of what you said about thinking about a lot of different angles, you know, a lot of different ways to interpret the situation.

There is an activity I do with kids, it's typically mostly girls in therapy where I grab like objects around my office and post it notes and we Come up with either situations that are specific to them or ambiguous situations.

Like all your friends get an invitation to a birthday party in the mail and you haven't got one.

And like, how do you interpret that?

And so typically, people who experience rsd, like, the first thought will be like, they don't like me.

Right, that's an option.

But then what are some other ways to interpret the situation?

Maybe it got lost in the mail or maybe it didn't the email did not deliver.

Maybe they just didn't have your email address or your mom's email address.

There are a lot of different ways to interpret it.

And I think that's helpful because once you sit down and really think about the situation realistically and flexibly, then you can decide, well, what am I going to do?

Like, what do I think is most likely?

What are the possibilities that I think are probably true?

And then what am I going to do with that information?

Am I going to sit here and sulk?

Am I, you know, am I just going to hate myself?

Or should I maybe go to her and just ask her what happened?

I think probably a lot of people with adhd, once they come down from that wave, will say, I'm going to go ask her what happened.

And then a lot of girls and women who are asked what happened probably don't expect to be asked what happened because we live in a society where, like, if you're rejected, you're expected or to just not ask about it.

But in my mind, it's like, I'd rather be ex.

Directly rejected, right?

Because we prefer that directness and know that I was being rejected and have that information rather than guess or miss out on an opportunity to be included if it was a mistake.

So, you know, you weigh out the pros and cons and, and what works for you and remind yourself that, you know, you can't control the environment or what other people do, but you can control what you do.

And you have to ask yourself, like, how would I feel proud of myself?

You know, at the end of the.

Day, yeah, I think it's modeling how you want to show up in a friendship.

And yeah, that's not easy to get to someone and say, do you mind me asking why I wasn't invited?

Because it makes everyone feel very uncomfortable.

And also we are opening, exposing ourselves to potentially an answer that is going to be quite hurtful and that could potentially shut down that friendship or it can crack it open and make it a bit more honest and authentic.

And I do think, you know, it shouldn't be the norm to not have an authentic friendship.

Like sometimes it feels like a lot of girls who spend a lot of time bitching about each other behind each other's backs and gossiping and being like you say, passive aggressive.

And again, I was talking to my daughter about this, who's nearly 11 and she is kind of hitting that peak.

You know, two's company, three's a crowd.

One friend comes over, another one says something mean about the other friend and why are they speaking badly about her behind her back?

Like she's trying to understand all of this.

And the only thing I can say is, is don't, don't be that person that does speak badly about people behind their backs.

Like be that person that says, I'm, you know, if she's not here, I'm not going to speak badly about her.

Or don't gossip about people because gossip for me feels like very dirty and I feel very like insanitary afterwards.

Like I just feel, I don't know, I just feel very uncomfortable.

You know, if you go for a coffee and the whole coffee has just been gossiping about other people, I try and change the conversation.

But a lot of women's friendship is based on gossip and talking about people behind their backs and not saying everyone does that, but it's trying to find a way to have these conversations that don't involve speaking about people.

And maybe what you said at the beginning of the conversation about men, it is easier because they talk about football.

They can like roll around.

Less drama.

Yeah, they can roll around on the grass and kick each other and it's all funny.

And they can sit in a car and not talk, not look at each other and just have a conversation about work and life and, and there's no expectation there.

We don't have to have all the solutions, but I think it's important that we lay it out on the table so so many women can go, ah, okay, so that's why I feel tight in my chest when I'm around certain people.

Or that's why I really struggle in those dynamics.

And I would love to maybe ask your professional opinion about how we can honour our own social battery so we don't feel burnt out when we do have to do these interactions.

Because at the end of the day we are probably working, we're probably got kids.

There's probably things that we need to do in social dynamics that involve lots of women.

School.

I know that a lot of people find that struggle at the school gates feeling kind of like you're either in the crowd or you're not in the crowd, or that, you know, those very shallow, surface level conversations that you have to have with the other school mums that you've never really kind of got into the depths with.

How can we guard ourselves so we are kinder and more compassionate to ourselves for the times, for the more meaningful relationships, I guess is my question.

Yeah, I think this differs for everyone based on their work situation or their daily life.

You know, like I'm thinking about kids, or I think that kids and teens have it the hardest because that's when you know you're basically in your own little environment.

Right.

Capsule, where you're surrounded by these experiences.

Right.

Where people can gossip about each other.

It's called victimization.

Right.

Bullying.

So there's direct and indirect victimization.

And indirect is more common in girls, which is the gossiping and.

Right.

Reputational, excluding people.

And sometimes it is on purpose, and it's for, you know, the reason of maybe rising up or increasing in social status, which is a thing too.

And you see that for adults too.

But it shows up maybe as differently, like in terms of fame or how much money you have.

And we know that those people generally, they.

They're powerful for a reason.

It's because people want to be like them and they want to do favors for them and to help them.

So that way maybe they can gain that status too.

And you see that playing out also for kids and teens.

And so I think they have it pretty, pretty difficult because we're here preaching as adults who have more independence and a more solid form of identity and more confidence, I think, relative to when we were in middle school, telling them it's okay to have one friend, but when you're in it, you know, and you're seeing.

I have.

I just had this vivid memory pop in when you mentioned that the numbers seem to matter, you know, when you're young, like, the more friends you are, maybe the healthier you are, the better off you are, the more popular or accepted you are.

I remember there was a thing when I was growing up in school, in elementary school, I think, even middle school stuff in high school.

But it was like when you had a birthday and you came to school, each friend was expected to bring you one or more balloons.

And I remember the most popular girl looked like she was about to fly away into the sky because she had so.

I mean, you can't even imagine how many balloons.

It looked like a hot air balloon was about to, like, lift her up.

But that's very visible.

You know, and it's strategic.

And kids don't even know that it's strategic.

They think it's.

Oh, it's always maybe nice.

That's heartbreaking as well, isn't it?

If you're just right.

Yeah, those balloons, all that physical status symbol.

Yeah, yeah, there's status symbol.

And then you see that the less popular girls have maybe two or three balloons, and it's.

You're expected to, like, be equally happy around.

Be happy with the balloons that you have.

Like, it's hard.

It's hard to actually be in that situation.

But as adults, we have the perk of not having to, you know, maybe invisible balloons.

Like, you don't really notice how many.

No one knows how many friends I have.

And that's protective in the sense, because then I feel more powerful in choosing how many friends I have.

And so I think, you know, as we get older, it's less obvious.

And then for that reason, maybe we could feel less pressure to having or having, you know, more friends, and we can focus more on the quality rather than the quantity of relationships and shift in that way.

You know, I. I know I've heard of a lot of women with ADHD who initially focus more on trying to fit into, like, the mom wine nights or whatever, and then they realized this just isn't for me, and they stopped doing that.

Maybe called one person from the group who they like and they just get wine with that person and that works for them.

Yeah, that's so true.

You just reminded me.

I've always had a thing with my birthday.

I love celebrating other people's birthdays, but I've always really not liked my birthday at all.

And my birthday, I'm a Gemini, I'm in June.

I should be, like, all sociable and want to, like, do a big party and everything, but my birthday gives me, like, the worst anxiety ever.

And all I ever want to do is just be with my husband and my kids and my friends will say to me, what.

What are you going to do?

You going to go out for dinner?

You going to organize something?

Like, we never go out.

We're never doing anything for your birthday.

And it took me a bit of time to reflect.

And actually I put something on my Instagram a couple of years ago about it.

And I was just processing as I was writing, and I said, I think that RSD is played into this anxiety that I have about my birthday because there's this fear.

Me too.

Yeah, there's this fear of what happens if people don't show up.

Don't show up.

Yeah.

What happens if people just think, I really don't want to go out for dinner and she's making me go out for dinner, or people forget about my birthday and then that shows and then I have all these different anxieties where it's just, for me, it's just always been easier just to shut the whole thing down and not even allow people not to show up.

Because, yes, then I don't have to worry.

Whereas I will always show up for my friends birthdays.

Like, I want to be there for them and I think my friends want to show it for me.

But I also get very sensitive if someone says, oh, I'm really sorry, I'm busy or I can't come or I've got plans that week or I'm away, whatever.

And so anyway, I put all of this in a post that was just like me, like literally brain dumping.

And I got hundreds and hundreds of replies from people messaging me, commenting, saying, oh my God, you've just articulated what I feel about my birthday.

But I've never really understood the layers of it.

And now I understand with my ADHD and there's social anxiety and RSD there that I've never really been able to process why my birthday is quite a painful, visceral time for me.

So it's interesting that you relate to it as well.

Yes, a hundred percent, if anything.

Like, so I started writing as a kid, but also When I was 14, I started writing in a diary and I, I have the entry still.

Like, I remember it so vividly was the first time that I think I really sat down and thought about that.

I was 14, I think.

So I had my birthday at a restaurant and a few people didn't show up.

And there were people who were important to me who I thought would show up and their reason or excuse for not showing up didn't feel sufficient.

And so I remember just looking at the MTC and feeling so hurt and thinking like, I'm not going to do it like this anymore.

And I wrote about that and I said, you know, I feel like birthdays are.

I don't know if this is maybe putting too much emphasis on it, but maybe it's not because so many people resonated with your post about it.

But I said birthdays are really a sign or a symbol of who your true friends are because these are the people who are going to go out of their way to show you that they love you for two hours.

Yeah, it's really interesting because so my birthday has Always been, like I said in the beginning of June, which traditionally here in the UK is like a, is half term, it's like a midterm holiday and it's normally the end of May, beginning of June and a lot of people go away on holiday and that's always been the case, case.

And so my birthday has typically always fallen right in the middle of those holidays.

So a lot of people have, have not been there and I would never expect people not to go on holiday and stay behind for my birthday.

And then my 40th fell during the, the depths of COVID and that one time I thought, you know what, I'm going to celebrate before COVID happened.

And then Covid happened and we couldn't really do anything and it was just really done in a way that I really wouldn't have wanted my birthday.

And so it has been a sensitive thing and I kind of think, oh, I should celebrate my birthday.

But now I've just kind of put it to one side and thought, you know what, I don't need to know who my friends are if they can turn up to my birthday or not.

So I know it's very self indulgent to think about it all in this way.

And I think sometimes we are with ADHD we're so in our heads and we do ruminate and we do overanalyze the that we can almost create things like make things bigger in our heads.

Not to say that these things didn't happen or we're not being validated, but sometimes we just need to kind of like remove ourselves from that situation and maybe distract ourselves and do something creative.

Go for a walk, do some breath work, go and find some that we do connect with.

Go and find somebody that we know straight away has got our back and we love being with them and not hyper focus or fixate on the difficulties and this and the challenges that we find with certain people as well.

Would you say that's a good coping strategy or am I deflecting by doing that?

I don't know.

I think maybe we need to like land somewhere in the middle.

Right.

Like I think I quote my mother in law in my book.

And she would tell me because I was always, not always, but I cried a lot in front of her.

And so she would tell me, gilly, your expectations are your worst enemy.

I love those mantras.

Yeah.

And so it's true.

Yeah.

Because what you were saying was.

And I think it's true for me too.

And I'm sure other women who are neurodivergent can relate to this.

But I really do feel like I really make such an effort to be somewhere when it involves someone I really love and care about.

So if someone doesn't is not there for me in that same way, then I think they don't love me in the same way.

Or, you know, that's the interpretation and it could be true.

Right.

I mean, when we think about when you put the notes on the stick on the tissue box in my office, we think about the situation a lot of different angles.

Like one angle possibly is that maybe they don't like you as much as you like them.

That's possible, right?

You could still be friends.

And for that to happen where maybe you would rank them higher as a friend, you know, and they would rank you lower, but you're still technically friends.

So I guess, like I, I think a piece of me also wants to be realistic with that.

Like there are going to be people who care about me less than I care about them and that's going to be disappointing and that's okay.

And then how.

What am I going to do with that?

You know, like I can use that and then, you know, in the future, maybe put more time, put more eggs into this friendship basket versus that friendship basket.

Because I know that this friendship basket is more rewarding and it feels more reciprocal to me.

Yeah, I mean what you said then that your mother in law said that to you, expectations are your enemy.

That, that was a really big one because I've heard that a lot.

To me as well, it's like just lower your expectations, manage your expectations.

And I do, I think that's a part of RSD again, that there's something there that we put huge expectations on ourself and we are the perfectionists and we are the ones that really hold ourselves to such high standards and how we show up for others and how we portray ourselves to the world and we kind of expect that from others as well.

Because I think we work really, really hard to show up for people.

We have these big emotions, highly sensitive people, and we do want to make people feel good.

And again, I'm speaking very broadly, very generally.

And I do wonder that because we have those expectations in ourselves that are often unrealistic, which is why we burn out and we do feel socially exhausted and all of that.

And sometimes we just go off, you know, off the kilt a little bit, not off the kilt.

Like we sort of just disappear for a bit, maybe due to the overwhelm.

We just kind of don't answer Texts.

And we.

We just kind of go underground for a little bit to almost recoup that energy that we've been putting out.

And then we have those expectations on others as well.

And sometimes people like you say they don't prioritize us the same way we may prioritize them.

They have other things, they have other cares, and we can't control that.

It is being realistic, isn't it?

But I also feel like, you know, when you do find a good friend, and it takes a lot, you have to go through a lot of relationships and interactions to really find that gem.

Because then you'll be surprised because some people do reach out to you spontaneously and, you know, and.

And they are there for you in moments where you maybe don't expect them to be.

And then that could really flourish into meaningful relationship.

Like, those people exist.

Yeah.

But I was thinking also in terms of, like, the gossip and standing for what you think is right and following your values.

There was.

There was a situation in graduate school when I was at a practicum, and we would sit together and have lunch, like the therapist.

It was kind of a gossipy atmosphere, which felt very ironic to me because we were therapists.

And you don't think typically of therapists sitting and gossiping about each other or, you know, just people.

And so I was sitting at a table where they were all, like, gossiping about another girl who was sitting just too close, like, in the same room, but she was out of earshot.

And I felt the same thing that you described, Kate.

It felt like my blood was boiling.

I felt so uncomfortable, and it just kind of came out.

I was like, well, if you have some thoughts about her, why don't you just go tell her?

And they all give me this look.

And I was not welcome at that table anymore.

And so when I got home and I told my husband about it, because I was already kind of an outcast, and I was trying to fit in, but sometimes it just doesn't work.

Like, you can't force the square peg, you know, into a round hole.

So I went home, told my husband about what happened, and he was like, I think he has kind of this generic way of looking at relationships.

He was like, gil, you shouldn't have said that.

And I was like, why not?

Like, they were talking shit about this person who was right there and it was wrong.

And he was like, you're never going to make friends that way.

And this is the typical way, right.

Of thinking about, I think, relationships.

That is the neurotypical way, like, people Generally would be expected to just sit there.

If you don't have anything to say, just don't say anything.

Right?

Don't correct them.

But I feel like it's like we have this instinct to just, you know, to just say what's on our mind.

And maybe we have this, I don't know, like, value system that is.

That's different.

I a hundred percent agree.

I think it's the value system, and I struggle with that myself.

I struggle with lies.

I struggle with inauthenticity.

I struggle with beating around the bush.

I struggle with keeping quiet and staying small and shrinking myself.

And all of those things which are not socially accepted for women.

We're then, you know, deemed outspoken, rude, direct, dysregulated.

Like you said, unhinged.

You don't ever call a man unhinged.

You know, it was typically a woman.

And I don't have a problem with having a strong value system.

I don't.

I just think that the world around us has a problem with somebody that says the truth.

Perhaps we, as neurodivergent women, might need to learn a way to sort of soften our edges a little bit.

But then again, I kind of think is that shrinking ourselves, is that making, you know, changing ourselves, masking for the comfort of others?

Because historically we've had to do that for the neurotypical world.

We've had to change and mold ourselves.

And so I wonder if it's time for us just to kind of be like, well, this is how I communicate and this is what feels good to me, and I need truth and I need directness.

And if we can't have a, you know, relationship like this, whether it's a partner or friendship, it's going to be a struggle.

And I have a husband who sounds quite similar to you who kind of like, doesn't appreciate sometimes my directness, and he maybe thinks I'm being.

I'm sometimes quite insensitive with the way I deliver things.

But I would rather say it, have the confrontation, get out the way, move through it, process it, grow and learn from it, then repress it.

Have it under the carpet.

That maybe would feel better in the.

In the moment, but not for the long term.

And that's why, I guess seeing and seeing a therapist and you're affirming therapist or a coach or indeed a marriage counselor, I think it's really hard if we don't understand how neurodivergence shows up, because when we understand how it shows that, like this whole conversation, like the nuances that we've talked about.

We can then say, okay, well, that is what's driving it.

That's what the deep foundations of me are.

And we can find ways to meet each other halfway.

Like, I'm not saying that because we've got adhd.

We're right.

And that is the way we have to operate.

Like, we have to be sensitive to other people and be kind and compassionate.

And this is why I try and remind myself as well.

But it is.

It's important we understand on neurodivergence so we can live more authentically, I think, is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just.

I spent a lot of time thinking through this in the same way, in exactly the way that you described it, because I wrote an article about neurodiversity and masking, and I feel like a lot of the content about masking and it talks about how you should be fully yourself, right?

Completely unmasked.

And I would love that.

You know, I would love to live in a world where I could just completely unmask and be myself and be accepted.

But unfortunately, that's not the case.

And, you know, I've experienced a lot of rejection, like, real rejection, because I took off the mask.

And so I think there needs to be a compromise, like, you know, finding a space where you can relate to other people, where you're surrounding yourself with people who are similar to you, so maybe you do feel safe could be one way to unmask.

And with.

Also keeping in mind that you might still insult people in the context, because you're not replicas.

Like, people are different, they think differently, they have different sensitivities.

But you can find spaces where you.

You're with people who are similar to you.

And then, you know, also try to find kind of like a reasonable way so you're not burning out, but you're.

You're assimilating a little bit, right?

So that way you can get by him.

Like, get a job, have people help you if you need help.

You know, try not to get fired, like, if you like the job.

Just kind of basic, you know, social skills.

So that way you can fit in to a point where you can live a happy life and then, you know, be yourself in situations where other people accept you.

It's like the.

You know, the metaphor, the analogy I'll give is, like, if you move to a different country, like, if I moved to France, I could just be like, I'm American.

I'm here and proud, and wave an American flag and just completely ignore French culture.

Or I could try to learn the language, you know, understand the cultural norms, like what's socially accepted, what's not accepted, and blend them with some of my personality.

And then when I'm home, you know, I'm myself, or if I like some aspects of French culture, I might even integrate that into some of the way that I. I see the world.

But, you know, you don't live in a cave.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's the thing, isn't it?

Is trying to find a way that we can thrive and live well and succeed and have potential and have healthy relationships and authentic friendships.

Like.

Like exactly that.

It's not hiding away and just doing life on your own in your own way, unless you really, really want to.

But we do wanna.

We.

We wanna do well in this.

In this world and this.

This lifetime that we've got.

Gilly, thank you so much for allowing me to just kind of verbally process so many things because we've not actually had a whole topic based on.

On this.

And I'm really excited to get this out and share it because I have a feeling it's gonna really relate to lots of people.

And if people are listening to this and then you have related to it, or are there things that we've not quite touched on or something that hasn't resonated, please do get in touch.

And I'm sure between us that we'd love to have these conversations because I actually think the more we communicate and have these conversations, it comes out in the open and it doesn't feel so taboo or so stigmatized.

And we can have conversations with our neurotypical friends and say, yeah, so I've been recently diagnosed with adhd.

This is how it can often show up.

If you don't know what RSD is, this is how it shows up.

And this is why I may be more prone to FOMO or might be more prone to sensitivity.

And we can share this conversation so our other friends can understand how we feel in certain situations and partners and everything as well.

So, yeah, I think the more we can share this kind of conversation, the less people, maybe the few generations underneath us where it have to suffer.

Because I've got a community, thankfully, of women, amazing women.

It's a more yourself community.

And it's women, you know, age from about 30 to 70, who are only just discovering their neurodivergence.

And there's women who are sort of 60 and 70 who have said, you know, I've lived my whole life and I've never really been able to understand or articulate any of this.

So it is really powerful to have a community where we can be authentic and amass.

And I would love you to come in, Gilly, and maybe we can talk more about this with the community and unpack it even more.

But for now, thank you so, so much.

Tell people how they can find you, how they can connect with you, and especially about your new book as well.

Yeah, so you can find me through my website, you can message me through there, which is drgillykhan.com or you can find me on social media.

I'm most active on Instagram and my handle is at Dr. Gilly Khan.

And my book, I happen to have a copy right here.

This is a coincidence, by the way.

So here it is.

And the title is.

Allow me to interrupt.

A Psychologist Reveals the Emotional Truth Behind Women's adhd.

It was released in the UK in October, I think mid October.

So now it should be available internationally and you can find it in any book retailer.

Amazing.

Thank you so much for your insights.

Really, really appreciate it and I hope that we'll get time to speak again very soon.

Thank you.

Jill.

If this episode has been helpful for you and you're looking for more tools and more guidance, my brand new book, the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit is out now.

You can find it wherever you buy your books from.

You can also check out the audiobook if you do prefer to to listen to me.

I have narrated it all myself.

Thank you so much for being here and I will see you for the next episode.