eh?

John, new year,

this session

new us. I like it.

Eagles, Randall Cunningham, Jersey.

Hey, I gotta do something, it's the best I can do right now.

Yeah, we're recording this the Friday before the Super Bowl, that the Eagles will win against the Chiefs, and this podcast will age poorly if I'm wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong.

I'll never forgive you for that, if that happens. if that has happened, because as we'll be listening to this, it'll be after. But, Speaking of the big game, our big guest today has a lot of big ideas on how brands, can successfully interact with, their customers and consumers overall, with the big game. And, we'll get to that in a couple of minutes.

First, I wanted to ask you a little bit about, you'd sent me an article about Starbucks having an ad in the Super Bowl. And you and I have been talking about Starbucks and some of the changes that your new CEO and CMO have been making. Coming in with a little bit of a reinvigoration and going back to kind of some of the brand's origin.

Yeah. Starbucks has been a little bit stale. Recently of late. The former Chipotle CEO, Brian Nickel moved over to Starbucks and really trying to refresh what they're doing. You and I've had some, some gentle, gentle conversations about some of the,

So, so we've, we've had some behind the scenes arguments that bubbled over into a LinkedIn post, didn't it?

it. Yeah.

All right, so let's, so let's share that. You and I have different points of view about one of the big changes the CEO made, which is among many other things, this is kind of small potatoes, but it struck me, bringing back the condiment bar so that customers can put their own creamer and sweeteners into their coffee. And you and I have different perspectives on that. Do we not?

Yeah, I think it's it's disgusting, but

Disgusting. Say more.

zone. Well, I mean, you know, if I'm going to Starbucks to pay double the cost of coffee, I kind of want my coffee complete, you know, I I felt like you know, I trust the barista,

And how do,

to put faith in the barista.

and how do you consider your coffee complete? What kind of coffee are you ordering?

Well,

Huh. Black, right? Okay.

today, today, I've gone black coffee, but for years and years and years I had put cream and sugar in my coffee

Okay.

and then I weaned off the sugar and then I weaned off the cream.

okay. Well, good for you. So you've got some credibility. My counterpoint to your, you don't like the mess. I don't like when I walk away with a coffee that has entirely the wrong. amount of sweetener and creamer and how does a barista know?

because they're a barista, how do you know if you get the, the, the, the, the perfect amount of, if you're ordering a cocktail from a bar, you trust the bartender to make sure that it's done in a way that is. Is, is sufficient for you.

I appreciate the analogy and I also want to tell you to shut up.

I, I just, what about if you're ordering a coffee to go, and you show up, and does that mean that you should be putting your own creamer in when you're on the go?

What about, what about you're in a hurry and all you want is the damn coffee so you can get out of there and now you got to wait for nine drinks in front of you while a barista, you know, lines it up behind all the mocha frappuccino lattes that are piled up in front of me.

Hey, that's not, that's

It was the most

paying double. That's why I'm paying double.

Oh, boy. It's a good thing we're in different locations right now. Hehehehe. Alright, so we're not going to resolve this debate,

No, no, we will not.

but they resolved it for us by bringing it back. And some other things they're bringing back, according to this new TV spot, that's airing in the Super Bowl, or before the Super Bowl. They're bringing back the handwritten name on there instead of the sticker. You probably hate that, too.

I like the the handwritten name that they would always screw up the names on. I thought as part of their, that's a good part of their culture. You don't need to, that's fine, but you know. Hey, more time writing on the cup instead of figuring out the right amount of coffee sugar and cream, but that's, you know, that's fine.

More time just handing me my coffee so I can fix it myself. All right. Can we, do you, do you want to talk real quickly about what, what they're doing in this,

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's talk about, let's talk about that if I can get off the subject of the creamer bar, the disgusting, inhumid coffee

let it rest.

All right. So you know, like we said Starbucks has been a little stale the last few years. They're trying to reinvigorate it a little bit. And some of this marketing, I think it goes in that direction. One of the interesting things they're doing the day after the Super Bowl is a free coffee Monday. I want to get your thoughts on that. Do you feel like that's a little beneath them to do a free coffee? It doesn't really, I don't know that that kind of jibes with who Starbucks has always kind of felt like they were, but Interesting approach. Not that I'm turning down a free coffee, but

Yeah. You know, I hadn't thought of that, but, but I probably would say, yeah, that would feel like it's cheapening the brand if it wasn't tied to loyalty, loyalty members. So I don't know why that shifts it for me. It tells me that it's for the people who actually are engaged with the brand already, or it'll get people maybe to download the app and become a loyalty member which I'm sure is of huge value to them.

yeah, and

I get it.

yeah, and you know, I'd like them. I like that. They're actually doing the spot outside the game too. So it's a, you know, it's a super bowl timed event or a timed ad. And the, the event is around the super bowl too, around the free coffee Monday, but they're not necessarily spending the billion dollars to run the ad in the game. So that's interesting.

Yeah, I also I'm taking I'm choosing to take it as a like a celebration beverage for the day after my team wins. And if worst case happens, they lose, then it's a consolation coffee. Either way. I feel like it's a nice gesture.

And I do like the focus on the barista. I feel like bringing it back to your people, and that's who you relate to, and that's why they know what kind of, how much coffee and creamer that I need.

yeah. Well, well

Creamer in my coffee. Anyway,

Yeah. Hey, we're not going too deep into the, the, the, the execution, but you touched on, yes, I liked that. They're showcasing the baristas. I also liked that they're bringing energy back. I mean, like coffee should be about that. And for it, I can't remember the last time if ever Starbucks was really about kind of bringing energy to your day. I, I, I really liked that idea, that positioning. So, you know, cheers to their new chief brand officer Tressie Lieberman. An anomaly for getting to, I think, a message that feels like a brand like, yeah, I might want to go back in there and kind of like feel the energy.

yeah, and you know, since they're on every other block you're probably near one.

I am near one. Yeah. All right. So should we go over to our guests now?

let's do it. All right, John, I'm real excited about our guest today. He's a 20 plus year veteran in advertising and marketing roles. He's been a chief creative officer for a number of ad agencies, including Anomaly New York. He was the executive creative director for the Gray Group. Agencies he's helped lead were named ad age agency of the year. Twice were named to Fast Company's most innovative companies. He's contributed to five top 10 Super Bowl ads. His work has been awarded at Cannes, D&AD the one show Effies and Emmys. He's had a major league baseball campaign quoted by President Obama. He was named to Ad Agency's 40 under 40. In 2015, and today he's the founder of X and O, an agency focused on big ideas at pace from industry experts. Welcome to the show, Eric Segel.

Thank you, fellas. Very nice to be here.

glad you're

I it hurt a little bit. It was, I was listening to that intro. I'm like, wow, guy sounds like he knows what he's doing. And then I liked that you threw the year in that I was 40 under 40 because I immediately started doing math and felt fucking old. So

I was I was trying to think how gracefully to say that, but I think we're all

could have just skipped the

farther away from that. Yeah.

We'll,

have just left the year

we will edit out the 2015 reference in post production here. Don't, don't worry, Eric, you're not the oldest person on this call. And Brian makes sure to remind me of that at least on a every other day basis.

And neither, neither my, so that only leaves one of us Eric you know, we're approaching the the big game, the super bowl this coming weekend, and, I want to know you know, what, what really excites you about how brands are interacting with consumers today and and things that they're doing with their spots.

Yeah, I mean, the Super Bowl is a really interesting moment for brands because I think a lot of them play by a completely different set of rules than they usually do, which you can appreciate because you go, Hey man, this is, this is just fucking fun to play along. But on the other, it's a head scratcher because you go, there's certain things you're doing. really, really well. Why don't we think this way all the time? Right. And what I mean by that is sort of this desire to connect with culture, right. To you know, really sort of go, Hey, you're, you're, you know, how much you've spent. For every millisecond of, of airtime. And, earning their, you know, attention being remembered and being, being loved hopefully by the, by the end of the day. And you just go, man, why can't, why can't that be the sort of barometer the time? And I know, you know, different horses for different courses. Right. And, and meaning like, where are we in a moment for this brand? Where in the funnel are we sorry for folks who I don't want to get lost in like.

Yeah. That's right. Funnels. Funnels kind of obvious.

funnels kind of obvious. Okay, cool. I don't know, you know, what stage

We're, we're getting close, but that's okay.

You can email, anyone can email us if they want to know what the funnel means. Yeah. Eric, you just

we, are we,

though, if you don't mind me asking real quick. You mentioned you know, cultural moment. And that is, I think the Superbowl is, you know, almost the, the ultimate cultural zeitgeist moment. So I guess that forces. A little bit of the different behavior you just talked about, right? Like this isn't the everyday, this is a cultural moment to reckon with. And great advertising usually has cultural relevance. Mm

yes, I think it, I think it should, I think, I think, well, great advertising, perhaps great brands should have cultural relevance, right? I think, and I think that's the bigger way to look at it, right? Because the brand is the total sum of, Any and every interaction with, the world writ large, from your product itself to, you know the space that occupies on the shelf to yes, of course, your advertising and all the gestures and, and, and, and acts and activations. And what I was getting at before is yeah, there's times to just like sell hard, right? But I think brands often, often forget about, the other side of it and what they're doing in the moment of the Super Bowl. And there, there are many brands that you know, we'll play in this in this moment sort of year in year out, right?

Mm hmm.

Big, iconic blue chip brands that have the money to really spend. And then there's a lot of brands who will. take this as an opportunity to just like introduce themselves to the world

Yeah. Get on the map.

kind of crazy to get on the map, right? And it's a, that's a big expensive

Risk.

swing to take.

The biggest, most expensive swing

You better do it right.

Yeah. Can you talk about some of that, those, those, those big differences you just mentioned, there's different types of brands that, that show up for the Super Bowl and, you know, kind of just how different they go about preparing for, or how different brands prepare for getting their ad ready.

Yeah, I don't know. I think we've seen I mean, look, the easy, the easy way to like when you just think about watching the Super Bowl each year, there's there's those gigantic brands that are, you know, there to sort of entertain. Maybe they're telling you about a new, a new product they have, but for the most part, it's just, it's just to be there. It's just to be a part of this, this moment.

Mm hmm.

And then there are certainly brands, I think every year that you just go, who, who are these players, right? New players in category, new brands entirely. You know, a lot of times that's like, just, just remember my name, just remember my name at the end of the day. Or is it, you know, just look me up on, you know, in the socials or visit my website. I think some of these brands have like real specific metrics they're going after. But I think those, you see, I mean, look, you see the, you see the big wins every year and you see the big fails every year. And I guess you can kind of say you see them in both but it hurts. I think the big blue chip brands are gonna be around no matter what, less than if you are, if you're a brand who's really stretching to play in this moment and spending these like 10, $10 million to, to play ball here like that, thing's gotta, that's gotta hit. And I, I think there are some brands who will take a swing like that and that's like, that could be their whole marketing budget for the year. You know,

Yeah, the, the impact of that, of failing is, you know, you can't, you can't, if you've taken that swing, it's got to, it's got to, it's got to land or you're in a lot of trouble. And it's just so interesting that the time for you to take that type of risk costs that much money, you know, like it's like, you know, you're, you're developing something that you're just dying for attention on. You probably get away from what your brand is more than anything. And that's the thing you have to spend the most money on. But,

I think, I think you just nailed it. A huge, a aspect of it, like, I think there's permission for a brand to deviate from its, from its playbook, right? When I say playbook, I mean here's the campaign we're running for the year in whatever channel you want to talk about, but you've got, you've got certain maybe creative vehicles, certain sort of strategic messages you're leaning on. And I think in this moment you can go, all right, let's push pause on that and, and change gears. Cause it. This is a very, very unique moment in time. You got audience has an incredibly different relationship to viewing advertising in that moment. Right. It's welcomed as opposed to something you're. Avoiding

think that's a huge distinction,

right. And, but I do think you still need to be true to the, the soul of the brand and the core of the brand and the DNA of the brand. And I think you will see in this moment, brands who go too straight, too far. And it doesn't, it either feels like inauthentic if you know that brand and there's a disconnect. And so therefore you're not actually building upon the brand the way we were just talking about it being in the total sum, because you're sort of building equity into another pile somewhere else that doesn't actually do you know what I mean? It's not like compounded for everything else you've done. And then I think other times it's like, it's try hard, right? And, and, and, you know, everybody's fucking savvy out there and you get the eye rolls or, you know. You see something that's a little cringy and you're just like, that wasn't them. You know what I mean? They're trying to play into something in culture and the fit isn't there. The payoff when the brand finally shows up isn't there. And I think you see that a lot too. And that's like, that's a, that's a real big watch out for me when working on, on something for Superbowl is to really make sure, even if you're like, Like I said, changing up the playbook, even if you're taking a wild swing, it's still gotta like, there's gotta be some truth in it. Both like a cultural truth, but it's gotta, it's gotta be like a brand, something that fits. You know, and it doesn't feel like this thing's out of nowhere to where it was a head scratcher at the end of the, at the end of that spot.

So I want to, I want to dig into that, right? Because sure, this kind of presence and money investment, you got to be true to your brand. So how do you rationalize that against, in the backdrop of a, you know, the social, world we live in now where you don't have control over the way your brand shows up because creators do it for you with or without permission. And then, you know, Brian and I have talked about, you know, back in 2006, Doritos invited consumers to create its Super Bowl ad. So, the ultimate, you know, giving up control. Sure, they got to pick which one won, but, you know, they give up a ton of control. To have their brand created, partially created by consumers. Can you talk a little bit, like, do you remember when that happened? And,

Yeah. I, man, that moment, I mean, it was, it was, it was huge. I'm a big fan of sort of the. Anyway, you can disrupt in that is where I'll talk at both sides of my mouth for a second, because like on one

You're allowed.

yeah, I mean, like on one hand, I love just a classic, just classic storytelling on the super bowl, a great fucking story, you know shot beautifully, killer music, like that's going to land too, right? We're just, we're emotional creatures, you know, something just hits like that works as much as. I think some of these more disruptive ideas that are playing with the format, right, whether that's Doritos going sort of more UGC and creating a challenge or it's, you know, tied years ago, playing with other brands, you know, messaging and iconography. Or, or lashing a bouncing QR code that is just, you know, the, just sort of just the, the, what the fuck moment, what, what am I watching right now? I think I have a, an equal appreciation for that stuff. It's interesting because like with the Dorito thing, because like that became the brand, like that is the brand as much as anything. Right. Like, I couldn't tell you what Doritos was doing before then, or who they were, like, I don't remember what that was, some, probably something about, like, cheese dust and taste, like, I don't, I don't know, but now all of a sudden they became, you know, more irreverent, more of the people, more creative, you know, just wild, and then that became a thing that they built on, I think, not just during the Super Bowl, and they obviously returned to that year after year and then had massive success when they cracked, you know, the USA ad meter with one of their spots. I mean, that's man, what a dream that is. You involve your audience, you save a shitload of money on production and, and the Super Bowl watching audience in USA Today, like votes it up. You just go win, win, win, right? But I think like, When I say they built on that, I'm not saying every ad Doritos does now has to be UGC, but that is a spirit and a respect for your, for your fans that they have certainly like carried on with. And I think that's like become a pillar of who they are. So, you

And they're good too. I mean, like

in

yeah, I mean, the, the one that they shot for this year, the one that a fan shot was, it's a good commercial, you know, with aliens and being, you know, ducting the trying to deduct a bag of Doritos. I mean, it was shot really well. And, you know, 1, like you said, you're saving the money, but also. You're getting the interaction from people that eat their product and, and, and so you're kind of driving that community engagement and, you know, and that's what you, you die for that.

totally. And I think also like, you know, pre then and pre YouTube and, you know, pre Instagram and Twitter and, you know, the metrics for success on the super bowl were very different to like, you were just vying for a hundred million plus eyeballs, right. Or 200, if everyone's got two eyes. Yeah. But you know, that all changed when now it's all, you know, it's the conversation for two weeks. Leading up and now, you know, even a few years ago, it shifted to like, what the fuck are we doing Monday? So now it's like, you know what I mean that that window has just grown and you have to have a very different playbook I think it's okay If you're still going all in on only that moment if you crush it But like you really got to think about the totality of that and like that playbook for Doritos is one way to do that Right, you're engaging your audience for a really long time inviting them into this into this contest, if you will, you know,

So, so that, that concept of, you know, user generated content, UGC, that you mentioned for some brands, that's a way in. For others, they continue to use kind of the same old, Playbook of they have an agency of record they spend seven to nine months prepping for a Super Bowl commercial and it's a little bit episodic. They're one and done moving on to the next back to their playbook. And let's get to the reason you're here. You're you're you're looking to do something very different from that traditional agency of record model. Can you talk a little about how that in general is being disrupted and kind of your role in that?

Yeah, I mean, look, my, my whole career pre X and O was spent at big agencies that sort of played that, that AOR role sat at the center of an IAT, the interagency team, like we really were the focal point for, for big iconic brands. And I love that, but there were pain point, a lot of pain points on our side. I heard for too long, all the pain points from my clients as well and yeah,

can. We can share some of those with

yeah, we can talk, we can definitely talk about some of that, but like, yeah, my, my partner, Brett banker, and I really wanted to set out, not just to do our own thing, but to do something different that that addressed all that. And I think there were a couple sort of macro trends in the industry. We wanted to focus on, I mean, 1 was, there's just a, there was a massive sort of, growing super senior, especially talent pool out there. You know, the timelines. And budgets were both shrinking. That's kind of been a forever thing and, you know, something I dealt with personally was just the, you know, the more senior I got, the further I got away from the work and you would you realize like, man, there's so many people who are, have been doing this a long time, like have the experience, have the instincts, have the talent and the taste to just like crush a thing. But they're juggling 15 different accounts or running a department and, you know, growing talent and you go, they don't, they don't have more than 15 minutes to actually put against a real problem or a real sort of brand challenge.

So if you're hearing that I go to the idea of like, you're a really great writer and you get more and more exposure, more and more experience. And as you get good. They give you people to manage and more clients to take on, and you get distracted. Is that a fair, like,

Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah. I think it's a little, yeah, I, it's, it's a weird I mean, look, I, I guess that applies to many career paths, right? You get more senior and you, you go into a management role, but a lot of times that management role is still doing the thing that you were doing before. Whereas, like in creative advertising, like you, it's a very, very different skillset. And I think some people are like. made for it. Whether that's managing clients, managing teams of people, managing careers, mentoring, like those are all really, really different skill sets than like coming up with a great fucking idea or crafting the hell out of something, right? They're really, really different. And I think we put people on the same path. The same ladder and you get to a point. I was guilty of it too. I had like exceptional people who were It's not even like were they good at managing or not? Like they were just exceptional at a certain thing whether that's you know We were talking about culture of like just coming up with ideas that would resonate in culture They just had like a sixth sense for it right versus somebody else who is the best comedy writer you've ever met And yet you go, well, you kind of need to be more well rounded if you're going to become a creative director. And if you're going to become an executive creative director, and if you ever want to be CCO, like, this is this is the path. So I don't know a, I think we got to lean into people's strengths a whole lot more and specialty. But, yes, to answer your question, like. As a, as a super senior, leader in an agency, yeah, you move away from doing that thing. And you're tasked with more. And, you know, when you're running a department of a hundred folks or trying to win new business and thinking about the bottom line, like you just don't have as much time to solve your clients problems. So our bet at X and O was. Let's go super senior talent only and, you know, so we have no hierarchy. We have no junior staff, no middle level staff. Let's give people 100 percent focus when they're working on a thing. So rather than juggle these five things at once, it's like, Nope, just be 100 percent focus on this project. For really short window, but lean on your instinct and taste to move, move at light speed. And we only work on a project basis. So we're out of the whole, you know, you brought it up, John about, like, retainers and you're sort of in the, in the loop loop there. And the goal is to really just kind of keep the thing. Going a little bit, you know we're, we're more of like a, a SWAT team. If you will, to come in, you know, move it, break next speed, solve the problem, knock it out of the park and, and, and, and move on. So.

Got it.

Yeah, that's our model in a nutshell. It's interesting when you start talking about something like Superbowl because of a lot of the factors we were, we were already talking about, right? A lot of times it's, there's so much money involved and some of these brands are, most of these brands are big brands. They most likely already have An agency of record, right? So yeah, it feels, it feels like it makes most sense to give that, that task then to your, to your existing AOR. But we're seeing that shift too. We're seeing all brands kind of move away from having a single forever partner, if you will, in

I mean, like, the, the world's changed, man. Like, the, it, I was actually got caught up in Mad Men repeats last night. But like, it was a different world. Companies, brands relied on an agency to, you know, do everything for them of how they showed up in the world. And now that isn't just like a, an ad in a newspaper or magazine. I love your model because I feel like it, it's, it needs to be. 100 percent focus on this thing. And then there's a lot of these other things. And like, if you just have one partner to do that you're probably going to get stuck in the situation you're talking about. And you know, the, the push and pull between the brand and the agency, I mean, it's, it's just a completely different world. And the super bowl is a great example of just like needing so many things now. It's not just coming up with that one idea. It's like the execution of a thousand things.

yeah. Oh man, I remember there was an episode of Mad Men, and he literally had a board up on an easel, and he was covered in like a black cloth, and he just unveiled it, and like, that, that was it. That was the it. And I think I even said, Don, that's why we pay you the big bucks. And I'm like, man, fuck off. I wish, I wish it was that easy now. It's crazy to your point. Yeah, even like we were saying, very, very seldomly now is a Super Bowl ad, the, the only part of that campaign, like, you

No, the tease and the activations around it are

in one channel, like that, that's not it. I mean, you look at, you know, you know, even now there's a bunch of campaigns, you know, the Monday's campaign, like there's, there's so many parts to that. And also to think like, when, when, you know, if that's the case, I would hope you're leaning on them. Yeah. Folks whose expertise it is to, to, you know, execute that idea and reinterpret that idea in, in different channels, right? Yeah, so and so's gonna write that, that film, so and so's gonna go execute that film, but what's happening in, in social, how are we, you know, or, or other, you know, any, any channels that you, that you've turned on there, that you really want a team of, of specialists. Going at this. And that's the way we think about sort of every project at X&O. Like we build the team for the ask every time. We're always building it up from ground zero though. So there is no, this is your dedicated full time team for this brand. Because I didn't think context just changes on a dime. You know, how are you able to then pivot just think really sort of brilliantly in different channels.

Totally. And like, when you're talking to executives at brands, like how has what they're looking for changed? Are they asking for different things in different ways?

Yeah. I mean, look, look, the CMO, I mean, just going back to Don Draper time, like, or even just five years, four

heard. Yeah.

five years ago, like the CMO job now is so much more complicated, so much more layered. A lot of times the CMO job has now become the chief brand officer. And again, when you think of what represents a brand, like it's everything. So to go, I'm going to hire one team that can do everything for me seems almost foolish, you know? It's not, it's not about like. Loyalty and like to an agency and I think there is a lot of that and hurt feelings when this idea wasn't conceived here or, you know,

Well, the episode I watched last night of Mad Men, they lost the lucky strike account

yeah, yeah,

And they were, they were crushed and it was like, you know, them trying to lucky strike was trying to consolidate all their all their marketing, which I don't even know what else there would have been like maybe the design of the packet, that package, but yeah, like the, the hurt feelings, it's really about like, how can you create the best set of teams that you can to, to accomplish all the projects you need to do

yeah. And I think, look, we have clients of all different sizes, which, which again is something very different than what, you know, I was used to in my past lives because we were always looking to like, scale up bigger and bigger clients with X and O because we're project based and we have a. Yeah. Yeah. Fixed fee model. We work with clients of all different sizes. So we have fortune 100 clients and we have startups, which is really fun for us just in terms of the, you know, to stretch our brains and the range of, of, of, of problems there. But they all have a different mix on their end, right? Like. Whether that's, you know, a Coca Cola who's got, you know, 50 plus rostered agencies, right? Or it's a startup who's got nothing. Or it's someone who's really trying to beef up their in house team and just wants to supplement that with some really senior thinking or like big agency thinking without being able to afford a big agency on retainer.

You talked a minute ago about bringing in like the specialists, the people who are really good for the thing versus having a standby team that did everything. So, so that's kind of at the core of your model. Is it sometimes hard to. Have the discipline yourself to not fall into the trap of, well, these people, this guy, this, this person is, this man or woman is really good on the last project. Let's bring him in for this one. Cause you're so good. Even though it might not be perfect. Do you find yourself ever backsliding into kind of that, you know, bringing the round peg into the square hole?

not, no, not really. I mean, we're pretty,

I love that

be only because like, we've, we've, we've, this wasn't like something we'd tried on, you know, in the midst of our, our business model. Like this,

you, you didn't come to this. You didn't come to this lightly.

Yeah. Like, this is what I think we wind up in a, in a position sometimes where you can look back and reflect and go, oh man, they weren't perfect for that. We almost, we try to like catalog our people, honestly, which is weird too, because they're so like exceptional. I mean, even on the creative side of things, right? I think, or especially on the creative side of things, because you folks have been doing this a long time like me. I mean, I fielded any kind of brief, you know, I would not consider myself an expert in any, like I took on tons of, I don't know, you know, cause related briefs. I'm not an expert in cause marketing. We have somebody who's written four books on cause marketing. So like, I'm going to tap that person. But when that comes, I go, I know I'm always looking for specialty. And there's a lot of creators who are super well rounded and would probably do quite well on any brief, but we ask them from day one, we're like. What truly do you believe your super power is? Like, where do you really rate yourself as like the best of the best? And that's a hard thing to answer, right? We all, we all suffer from imposter syndrome. So to really answer that and go, where am I the best of the best? Like, all right, I'm not going to say everything because then you're crazy. Like you're just, you're crazy to say that. And then there's also like a little bit too of, and what do you love? Right where do you think you're exceptional because sometimes you might be exceptional because you've done it a 1M times, but you're kind of over it. Right? And I don't want to do that 1 again. So that other bit of, like, what just lights you up? Because when you get a challenge, that's sort of tailor made for you. You just invest way more. And I don't mean hours. I mean, like just brain power and energy and focus. So we're always looking for that. So yeah, like we've gotten it wrong, but I don't think we're really never playing a game of availability. It's not, well, shit, we don't have anybody that's suitable for this. So we'll just put so and so on it. And it's

You must have a pretty broad roster of talent then at

we're about, we're about 130 people right

Okay. So

to be incredibly discerning. Yeah. And look, it doesn't mean everybody's

And none of those are, those aren't employees, right? Those are just people

No employees. We're all contractor base. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that everybody is an old person like me who Brian, thank you was on the 40 under 40 list in 1910. But, you know, because some of them, depending on what we're talking about, right, if we're talking about, you know. AI, like, yeah, that person might not have been doing it for 20 years, obviously. This could be

Yeah. Very few

born into that and knows it inside out. So these are just people who, like, know their shit inside out and really can speak instinctively on it. But it's interesting, even when he's talking about Super Bowl, and, and I'll just, I'll be fully transparent. It's like, we've got No horses in the race this year. But man, we've got a bunch of folks in the network who have like created very famous, very successful Super Bowl campaign. So I just think about how a lot of the Super Bowl work gets made. And everyone wants a shot at it. I get it. And they're going to approach it with like tenacity and hunger on some of the, from some of these agencies, but I wouldn't consider a lot of these spots to have been sort of strategized and created and crafted by experts necessarily. Right? I don't always think that's the case. Oh,

Yeah. I think, you know, something you said, you know, figure out the thing that you're best at. I mean, that to

care about.

credible advice for anybody. And now trying to figure out where their places and what are you great at? And that's such a hard question to answer because, you know, there's a lot of, you know, the job market today is kind of crazy. So you want to be able to show that you can do everything, but like, you need to be able to be really specific about. You know where your strengths are but like, where are you great at? And, and then also, you know what you said about, you know, do something that you love. I mean that's so important. I mean, those two things to me are like, those would be the best two things you could tell somebody, you know,

And that intersection is

think that's an exercise like anybody listening. It's it is hard to your point. It's really hard, but to sit and take a few minutes to answer that, even if you don't share it with anybody. I mean, just like file that file that away inside and and no, and maybe some of those things are not great. You want to be, but that's helpful too. But I really do think. Being honest, I mean, we, not only the experts in our network, we talk to, you know, production partners that same way. It's like everybody who tells you I can do everything, I'm like, yeah, what are you fucking fantastic at? What, what do you wish you were, you're really good, but you wish you were a little better? And what are you like, don't call me for that. It's not my thing. And I, like, I respect an honest answer there, more, much more than, nah, we're, we can, we can do it all. And I think when you hear that, I go, I don't believe you. I just don't believe you. And, and I think it actually hurts you. So even when you talk about trying to get a gig and interviewing, I don't think that plays that well because I think the person on the other end listening who asked that question probably knows it about themselves too, that there's no way they could be good at everything. so I think, I think it, I think it behooves you to answer that one, honestly, but it's hard. It's really hard.

there really are.

Was there a, was there an oh crap moment for you when you decided that you needed to break away from the traditional agency business and do this very new model? Like you talked about, I've, I've, it sounds like there's been, there was at least a slow burn and kind of seeing some of the inefficiencies and the opportunities on the other side. But was there like a moment where like, I've, where you made that decision? Where you said, I'm, I'm doing this.

I think sort of not, not, oh crap, more of like a light bulb moment for me. After, leaving my full time job, I spent a couple of years like just consulting, right. And I say consulting different than sort of freelancing as a writer, which I did a little bit as well, but I did a bunch of like direct to brand work. And then I also worked for agencies in more of. An interim and fractional chief creative officer capacity. Like whether that was like, Hey, help us work on our new business pitch, our creds, like sharpen that, or help us wrap the ship on this wobbly client or help us win new business. And there was a moment where I was leading a big global pitch. And I just realized I'm like, I'm doing this as somebody who does not represent this company full time, this agency full time, and everybody knows that. Like it wasn't back in the day. I would have been asked when I say back in the day. I'm talking.

the, the client probably didn't know that.

No, they did. That's what I mean. I would say five years prior. It would have been like they'd have no idea. But now with linked in and you just go on and my name is showing up in the little box like it is now on the zoom. They're like, Oh, who is this guy? Punch me into linked in. They go. Oh, it don't work for them.

He's a freelancer.

Right. And, and so, like I said, back in the day, it would have been like, Hey, just tell them we're sort of negotiating. We're still, we're, we're in talks. And there wasn't any of that because I think something, something just changed, which is I don't like this brand a hundred percent needed full service AOR global, like it's a big, big brand looking for a big, big holding company type agency. Right. So like they needed that. It wasn't like. Someone like me could go away and steal quote unquote steal the business. That's not gonna happen, but there's a moment where you just go Oh, man, they didn't give a shit that I that I wasn't there Global ECD like they didn't care. They were just like hopefully Hopefully this guy's just sitting at the table and is gonna help make this better and that's all I care about right now Can you help me solve my problem? Can you help make this great? For the agency, can you help us win this? For the client, can you help us solve this? And I just walked away going, man, shit's changed. It's changed. No one cares anymore about the pageantry of it and the logistics of it They're like, I need, I need, we always, we say, I mean, I think it's on our website. Like a lot of our clients say like, I need big ideas. I need them fast and I don't care where they come from. And like that, that's what everyone's thinking, you know? So we

I do think they're thinking that I think you're giving, I think you're giving some clients a little more credit than, than do in terms of knowing whether you're a part of the team or not, I think a lot of times on a big agency of. Record relationship, the client just assumes if you're in here pitching a big idea that you are actually part of that agency But to your point, I think the important distinction is, is this person able to help me solve my problem? That's all.

Well, I'll tell you 10 years ago, the thing that would have scared me would be. And I'll use a different example. I had somebody come and renovate my house, and there was like a lead company, and they farmed out all the work individually, like they brought in electricians, they brought in a contractor, they brought in somebody to do the flooring, and the project kept falling apart because none of the people worked directly for them. So I would say, like, who's kind of holding everything together as they're more, I guess, expertise on the brand side now where they're kind of making sure they're playing a bigger role and making sure they have the 360 degree view in it, where in the past, you know, the agency, the agency record would do all that themselves, like who's kind of holding the thing together in a way that keeps that continuity.

I mean, if it's my company, like better fucking bet it's us who are like keeping it together. Do you know what I mean? Like if I'm the CEO, I'm going, yeah, you, you, you brand team better be.

Great.

You know, just, just shepherding this thing overall and have a vision, but yes, lean on expertise to help you craft hone, execute that vision. But to just like blindly hand that over and go like, ah, I don't really know what's going on. I'm going to trust that these guys are running it. It's like, that's just seems nuts to me.

Yeah, but with so much pressure around growth, I think a lot of times that sentiment is does, is not first and foremost. It's not, there's not a CEO going, let's make sure we are true to this brand. It's like, how do we get the quarterly number done? Don't care. Don't care what the brand looks like or how it shows up. Care about, care about growth. That,

well, I mean, look, you get into that's a big, big fundamental debate. I don't even know how it's a debate, but like, you know, this idea that brand drives business, like, which I firmly believe in not solely, but Like I said, we are irrational creatures, man. Like there's a, there's an obvious value exchange that, and, and, you know, I even hate using the word consumers because it's like, I'm talking about people who are not me, me, us, all of us. Yeah, like we're we're savvy like I want to know what the value exchange is. What am I getting for my hard earned? Money, whether we're talking services goods, whatever But yeah, like I want to believe in something. I want to know what you stand for I want to understand who you even if it's not even some big profound thing. It's just like it's just the same way we like Make friends or hire a contractor, like who the hell are you, man, like what, you know, what am I, who am I, who am I, you know, bringing into my household or wearing on my person or like, I just, or putting in my mouth, like, you know, like, I just need to know who you are and that, that's what I mean by brand. And I do think. When you, when you create some sort of affinity for that, like you're willing to go back. So it does drive transaction. Like course it does look at some of the biggest brands on the planet.

Mm hmm.

there. It's not just, it's not just the, it's not just at the register. So yeah. But anyway, I digress.

So. Eric, you know, with the Amazon Prime Black Friday football game and it's, you know, more direct connection to transaction. Do you see that type of strategy being used more in the Super Bowl?

Yeah. I mean, everyone's got, you got another, you got eyes glued on the, on the big one on the big screen. You got the other one in your hand that it's not even in your pocket anymore. I mean, it's never in your pocket. It's literally right in your lap now. So why not take advantage of that? There's some other conversation or continuation of the conversation happening. Right. It gets really interesting when it starts to become layered and as long as it's not too much, too much work also, you know, and you look at what was slightly different, but what Verizon did last year with, with, with Beyonce and dropping the, the, you know, work for her, she was dropping news about an album while it was simultaneously touting The power of their network, like, I mean, that's the stuff I like I get excited about because you're like, yeah, why not? It's so many things are going on at once. And I think, like I said, we're all savvy to the value exchange. So why not? You got something to sell me, sell me, but sell me in a way that's entertaining, especially on the Super Bowl. Like. Cause like,

Yeah.

you know, but then you've got me, you've got a captive audience. You've got me. What's next? So then I ignore the subsequent commercial and I don't even know what that next one is. That's by the way, that's the hardest thing is following a great commercial when everyone's looking away from the screen, talking to their friends on the couch or looking you know, or, or, or, you know, tweeting about how funny it was, you know?

by the way, I'm constantly entertained. Every year there's at least one or two advertisers who just didn't get the memo that they're supposed to be entertaining in this forum, in this forum. It's so, it's so sad to see the money just swirling down the toilet because those, when they, there are those ones when they come up, people are just like, okay, now I can run to the bathroom.

Yeah.

Okay. Now I

just lit 10 million on fire.

Yeah. And every year.

though, timing's everything though. I mean, they're, they're, you know, everybody's been at a party where it just all magically gets quiet where a certain commercial comes on. And then other times it's like a great play just happened and everybody's talking about the play and they missed the commercial. Like timing is everything. I mean, there's just so many variables here.

I think that's true, but I also think there are a ton of bad decisions made. I mean, it's, it's wild to me, right? Everyone's vying for the top 10. I get that it is hard to crack that, but I don't think it's that hard to crack. Let's say I'll be arbitrary top 25, like into fall in the bottom 25. What are their 65, 70 commercials to be in the bottom 25 is like. You really, really screwed something up like tonally strategically

Yeah. You're not putting that as the intro to your podcast appearance.

And it's interesting, ironically, there are probably people involved in some of those bottom 25, bottom 10, that are really good crafts people, right? There probably were experts, but something just didn't connect.

Yeah.

I mean, there are probably too many, too many people got involved and it just probably fell apart.

Yeah.

You know, I guess Eric, what kind of situations have you been in where you do a ton of planning and it kind of blows up or, you know, right at the end, another idea comes out or like, you know, there's so many different ways that it can go.

Yeah. Oh man, I've been, I've been in a bunch of those. It's funny. I think, you know, I've worked on, I think this applies to sort of all advertising, especially when you're making like a big film, but especially so for Superbowl, it's nuts because there's so, so much attention and money poured into it. But yeah, I've been involved in Super Bowl commercials where we got the brief eight months before, you know developed in the next couple, tested for months, you know, where you're drawing up, drawing up animatics, you're testing those. I've gone so far as to certain brands have enough money where they will make. Like finished multiple Super Bowl commercials and then test those. I, you know, I'm not a big fan of testing in general, especially. The creative testing strategy, maybe testing the creative, not at all, but so I've been on that end. I have definitely been on a couple of projects where it was like a last minute thing. Screw it. We're going in, you know what can we cook up in 2 months? I've been on a couple of projects where you really did get out in front of it, but then it. It died kind of real, real close to a moment in time where you probably have to pull the plug entirely, but we, we rebooted and the reason things, I mean, one thing, cause of legal, the NFL, I remember pushed against something we made and we're like, you can't, you can't air that camera on that. So we, we pivoted one time it was due to talent. We pivoted. But yeah, I mean it's funny because you can, you can pull it off in, in six weeks.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And I think you look at it and you go, yeah, you should be able to. I don't think any 32nd piece of film should take seven fucking months. I think that's personally, I think that's crazy.

Okay, so you're, you're a value prop of doing stuff really

I think that's, I mean, look at the business I've started. We'll tell you everything, but I think that's nuts, man. Who's got that kind of time. Who's got that kind of money. Like, I just think that's nuts.

All right, so, so your value prop of speed plus matching true experts to the actual business problem you're trying to solve plus probably a bunch of other things. I'm sure you have plenty of objections in this new model that you've, you've pioneered. What's the big one? What's the big one? Client's like, I just can't pull the trigger and go with you with X and O because I've got an agency of record. I'm paying 40 million a year or two and it's too uncomfortable for me to make that switch. What's the big objection?

Listen, I, I, it's about fit, right? It's about we are very, very clear in terms of what our proposition is. And we, that, that's for us and it's for our clients, right? Meaning we're not going to take the wrong job when we know it's a poor fit for us. Like we're not a full service. Full time, round the clock, round the year agency, right? And I know that some businesses require that, some brands require that. Now, so I'd say that's the biggest objection, but it's not really an objection if you can, if you're really clear up

I was gonna say, they probably know that coming into the

Yeah, yeah,

are not that.

pushed, I think we've been pushed sometimes when, you know, we've done like a cred session and, you know, there's chemistry and there's, There's you know, a marketer or brand leader who goes, man, I really like this model, but can you guys just, can you, can you do this for us instead? It's hard. It's hard to turn that down, especially if you like them. Sure. If the money's good, if the brief's exciting, if the challenges is, is, is, you know, inspired and ambitious. Well, like you got to say no, if it's not, if it's not your model. Again, it's hard to call it an objection, but I guess it is as yes, that's a good, but

it's an obstacle, maybe,

an obstacle. It's a good, it's a good reason. I think for somebody to turn us down

so you're not going to end up, you know, you're not going to end up you know, three months into the relationship and suddenly you're doing a hundred different local offer tags on car spots. That's not going to be you guys. Okay. Got it. Got it. All

Yeah. That's not us. Yeah.

right, Brian, what else do we have for Eric? I feel like we've kind of monopolized this time for a while now.

I mean, I think that covers it. I, I think that you know, John knows that I have very similar beliefs to like, why would we spend this much time on it? I feel like the more time you spend on something to that degree, I feel like it just gets compromised The vision for what you're really trying to do goes away really fast. And

When something gets overworked, you mean?

yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not like, you know, the old poets in the 1950s would just be extremely stream of conscious and then they would never touch it again. Now that's a little extreme, but like, I do feel like there needs to be some of that, like that first idea, like run with it and like, If you're trying to put something in front of people, like they want to react to something that's very organic and something that has some feeling to it and the more people you put on that feeling, the more you take that away. So,

Well said. Yeah. It's funny because we're in a business that is, as we all know, very subjective, right? But I think sometimes you just gotta trust, to your point, Brian, like, trust your instinct and your experience to go, no, that's gonna work. Now, let's spend some time together making it fucking great and ensuring, and ensuring it works. As opposed to, I don't know, it's hard, you get, you get a group together and you all want to poke holes, you shoot something down and, you know, I think harder is to have like a build up session instead of that, right? Where you're really building this thing up together and making it leak proof, if you will, but yeah, yeah,

Well, Eric, thank you so much for your time. This has been really interesting to hear about a very different perspective on the way brands go about showing up on that on that big stage. So really, we really appreciate it.

hopefully next year we'll have some yeah. Some films in the race.

Well, I can virtually guarantee you that you're more likely to have some spots in the Super Bowl than your hometown Giants. So. How about that?

That's a way, way to make your, maybe, you know, way to make your guests feel Tara, even first he's

that and a 40 under 40.

right, we like to open and close on a low note.

It is gonna be very hard for me to watch Saquon, do his thing in the Super Bowl. I wish him well, but I do hope the birds. Get throttled.

that. I re I do respect that.

I'm all in on a chief's repeat three feet. Let's

will, we'll definitely edit this crap out. Eric, thank you so much. It's great

fun to hang with y'all. All right. See ya.

All right, Brian. Fun to hear about an entirely different agency model that can give brands the chance to kind of get into really big ideas with great experts, faster than they would normally from a, a larger, slower agency. And also nice that we were able to kind of come to some consensus around, what's important in terms of following your skillset and your passion and not arguing about coffee creamers.

Indeed. And great, great conversation about how brands are interacting with the Superbowl. And yeah, always good to talk to somebody who's kind of on top of the top of the industry and has a lot of great insights. So awesome conversation.

And I've seen it from so many different angles. So, all right. Well, thanks until next time.

We'll see you next time. See

Bye.