This, you said statements either true or false.

I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply to that.

It's not only two fab statements would be either true or false.

So is it true that I'm talking to you?

Is it true that it's true.

Statement I'm talking to you, Is that true?

Yes.

Okay.

Is it true that babies exist?

Well, I mean, how babies exist.

Babies exist.

Babies exist.

Is that true or is it not

the case that it's true?

I would, I mean, if you want to go down the, you know, if you want to be very strict about it, I would be skeptical about it.

Okay, we're done talking.

This is Apologetics Live to answer your questions.

Your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rapaport.

We are live Apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions that you have about God and the Bible.

Now here at Apologex Live, we can answer any, any question that you have about God in the Bible.

If you doubt us, well, just go to apologeticslive.com scroll down till you see the duck icon.

You can join us on the live stream.

Just give your browser the, the permissions to use your microphone and camera if you want to be on camera, and you can join and ask us a really, really difficult question.

And just remember, I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

So with that, I, I love that clip that I started there with Matt Slick when he was on the show many years ago and someone wanted to say babies don't exist.

And Matt's like, okay, you can't even talk to a person that's going to deny that babies exist.

But it was interesting because he didn't realize, he did admit that they were having a conversation.

But it's the funny thing you do when you're explaining logic.

And we may get into some of this tonight as we're going to talk about an interesting topic.

And I'm going to get into why we're talking about this in a bit.

But the I, the use of we in the Quran when referring to Allah.

Now, I'm going to admit up front, we're going to talk about this.

This is not original with me.

I'm going to, when I bring in our guest, I'm going to explain or maybe let him explain how this came about.

And I thought this was really neat and wanted to talk, talk more about it.

So it's, this isn't something I'm an expert in.

I've studied it for about a week, been looking into it.

But There's a lot out there and it may be something, this may be a real interesting argument to make when you're speaking to Muslims as we've been looking at Islam the past few weeks.

Before I bring in our guest, I do, I do want to say, I don't know if any of you had seen.

I just saw that all the news was about this actor, Radio Richard, Robert De Niro.

And he was, he was crying over the State of the Union the other day and he was sitting there and crying and I, I had to laugh.

I just had to laugh because you have all of the, the media that I was watching, they're all like, oh, look how, how emotional he is.

Look at how he's so invested in this country.

And he's, he's crying over this.

And I'm like, he's an actor.

He gets paid to cry on demand.

Let, let's give an Oscar for Robert De Niro in his, in his crying over the State of the Union.

I also found it funny because he was also in the news.

I think it was last week, the week before, because though he pushed really hard to get madame into office in New York City, now that the mayor in New York wants to raise taxes on the rich.

Yeah.

Robert De Niro saying he's going to leave New York because he wants his money to be his.

In other words, he doesn't want the guy that he got helped get into office who said he wants to tax the rich.

I guess Robert De Niro thought he wasn't the rich or that the mayor would tax someone else.

But yeah, he can afford to get up and leave the rest of the people who make 125,000.

That's considered, that's what the mayor is considering.

Rich in New York, they can't pick up and leave.

Now for some of you, you go 125,000 is a lot of money.

Not in New York City.

I asked a friend of mine who lives in New York City, what is the average rent for a one bedroom apartment in New York City?

He said he's paying $4,500.

Like, dude, that's more than my mortgage.

And I got a house, like I got a, a four bedroom house.

I pay less than that mortgage.

So you got to be making some dough.

If you're, if you're having to pay $4,500 in, in rent, no wonder no one can afford a house there.

And so, hey, congratulations, Richard, you, you deserve a, an award for your crying on, on demand.

Like basically any actor could pretty much Do.

So with that, let's bring in Nicholas.

Welcome to Apologe live.

Hey Andrew, how's it going?

Good to see you again.

Yeah, I haven't talked to you since you and Matt Slick debated the charismatic gifts a couple years ago back down here in Salt Lake.

Yeah, that was a while ago.

So that was, I was speaking.

That was what, a year and a half ago.

I was doing a couple day seminar there at the Utah.

Now I'm gonna try to remember the name of the.

Their.

The Utah Christian Research.

Yes, Utah was.

Yeah.

Christian Research Ministry or ucru.

So Utah Christian Research Center.

Sorry, Center.

That's it.

Yeah.

So it's.

If you want the easier way to find it, folks, it's Mormon research ministry or mrm.org Bill McIver was on the Internet early because to get a mrm.org get three letters you had to be in pretty early.

I mean I got three letters but it's SFE Bible because I learned two jump on it quick.

So when the Bible domain came out, I got SF Bible right away.

So.

But yeah, you could go to mrm.org and, and from there find the center.

But that was something we were doing a couple of day.

We're doing a whole lot that, that like, I think it was like four days and then we finalized it with a debate with Matt Slick and myself.

And I, I realized if you remember that debate, I made one.

One, one fatal flaw.

One fatal flaw.

It was p. Pastor Ed Romin's birthday.

And oh yeah, I said, I said that the loser was going to have to sing Happy Birthday to Ed.

And the reason that was a fatal fall because I think everyone decided they would vote on who they wanted to hear less sing to Ed and they determined well, Matt would be, you know, less.

So yeah, I had to sing Happy Birthday to Ed.

Yep.

Oh, I'm gonna fix my camera here for a bit.

So you reached out to me in email this week.

We've been doing some shows on, on Islam and you sent me an, an email that I had not considered, not really thought about.

And, and to be honest with you, I've read the Quran several times and never picked up on it that I can recall.

It didn't find its way in my book.

It didn't find its way in my notes, in my research.

And everything got went into my book and, and I was like, wow, how did I miss this?

This was like a really interesting argument.

And I, and I did sit there and say, well, could it be that we're just not understanding it right?

We don't speak Arabic.

We, you know, there could be good rational arguments.

But then you sent me some videos and I did some looking and I went, oh, there's even.

There's not like a clear answer within Islam on this, so maybe this is something.

So why don't you talk about what you discovered and.

And to help us get started on this.

Yeah, definitely.

So, yeah, introduce.

Introduce yourself, too.

So if folks want to, you know, if.

If folks want to know a little bit more about you.

Yeah, for sure.

So my name is Nicholas McCorkle.

I live here in Salt Lake City, Utah.

I've been here my whole life, so 38 years.

I work in an engineering office as a project manager, and I design electrical systems for commercials, multifamily buildings, and other sites.

Been married for almost 10 years to my amazing and beautiful wife.

We have two kids, 6 and 3 years old.

We go to a local church here in the city called Gospel Grace and have been members for almost 10 years.

And I'm on the safety team and physically serving as well as helping up scheduling and planning.

And yeah, I also very much interested in apologetics.

Always have been.

That's kind of what led me into our discussion here tonight.

I was just going through your book, Andrew, what Do We Believe?

Which I happen to see right there on your desk there.

I don't know if you purposely place that for the show or if it just happened to be on the top

of your case bookshelf trying to make some room.

So, yeah, I've had it for a long time, but I was looking for it, couldn't find it, and then I finally found it.

So what got me looking into it is I was coming back from a men's retreat this last weekend, and a brother of mine was just showing me some stuff on his telegram.

I forget the guy's name, but he, he's former Israeli officer type thing, and he gets intel that the media is not going to show you as far as what's really going on.

And I just saw what Iran was doing to its own people.

And then hearing about Dearborn, Michigan, and then even now it seems like New York, there's a rally to, you know, basically Islamize New York City.

So I'm just like, man, what is going on?

It looks like I should probably learn a little bit about this.

So picked up your book, started reading, and honestly, Andrew, I didn't even get that far.

I think I got to, gosh, what page was it?

It wasn't very far.

I only got to maybe the fifth page in your book on the subject.

And I was just noticing something with the, with the text that you put in there, the one that was really interesting to me, that really stood out and got me thinking this way was specifically when it's talking about Muhammad not having any partners.

Right.

That's like one of the greatest blasphemies within Islam is that you would claim that there's more than one God or try to attribute another type of God working alongside Allah.

And so when I see in the text that Muhammad is speaking in a pluralistic sense, it just stood out to me, especially after reading those sections in your book.

Yeah, anyway, that's what got me onto it and then as soon as I saw it I sent you that message and then we started corresponding on the subject.

So yeah, I'm not an expert in it either.

I've only looked at it this week.

But going through, going through that, looking at some of the arguments that they try to write use to defend it, which are pretty weak and then looking at that like how does this, how does the Bible stand out?

How does God actually stand out when he speaks in the plural form in the Old Testament?

So yeah, and so specifically you came, brought up, you had sent me Surah.

And, and when I say Surah, for those who have not been here for the past few weeks, when we're talking about Islam, what we would think of as a chapter in Scripture, chapter and verse, they would refer to surah to Surah.

So if you hear me say Surah, that's I think chapter and verse.

And so surah 5:44.

And it, it says and Lord we did reveal the Torah wherein is guidance and a light by which the prophet surrendered unto Allah judgment judge the Jews and the rabbis and the priests judged as such of Allah's scripture as they were bidden to observe their there unto where they witnesses, where they, they witnesses.

And so you, you, you picked up the fact that there is references to Allah who we talked about in the last maybe two weeks that it's very clear in the Quran that it is monotheistic in the sense that one being one person different than the Christian understanding of Trinity, one being three persons, they would condemn that.

The language that they use to say God is one we have no problem with as Christians.

Correct.

We believe God is one.

When they say well there's, there's one God and there's no others.

Well read, read Isaiah.

It is everywhere in Isaiah is talks about God being one.

Right.

It's, it's, it's like throughout there.

And so in Fact, this is Isaiah.

This is a good verse to memorize or at least have a note, especially when you deal with people that like Jehovah Witnesses.

Really good one.

I'll give you two verses.

If you're going to have two verses that you're going to talk to Jehovah Witnesses, I'll give you two verses to have in your arsenal.

Okay, so the first would be Colossians.

And what you want to do in Colossians is look at Colossians 1:15-20.

Let me read that.

Even though this episode is not on Job Witnesses, but it'd be good to have in your arsenal because there's seven things here mentioned that Christ does.

Now the whole idea is Christ being preeminent.

It says he that is speaking of Christ, he is the image of invisible God.

So whether is Muslims, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, whatever group that wants to say they believe that the bi in the Bible, the New Testament, they have to deal with the fact that this is very clearly saying that He, Jesus Christ is in the image of the invisible God.

Okay, he's described as the firstborn of all creation.

Now firstborn can mean like my son is my firstborn physically born.

Firstborn can also mean, and does mean in a inheritance way, the.

The preeminent one.

So if you look, Abraham had two sons.

Ishmael was not the one, the preeminent one that got the inheritance right.

Isaac was.

So right off the bat we realize that firstborn doesn't necessarily mean the first birth.

Okay, that would seem odd anyway, because how would you deal with Jesus being the first born of all creation when he wasn't born for 4000 years after creation?

Like that's.

So now the way to Witness will say is that he was the first created thing being Michael the Archangel, and then he became Jesus.

But see, the angels weren't born.

See, we couldn't really use the word firstborn for them.

So he's the firstborn of all creation.

I would argue, and we'll see this in the context that that means he's preeminent.

Verse 16.

For by him, and this is the important thing.

For by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.

All things were created through him and for Him, and he is before all things, and in him all hold together.

Now that's four times the word all things appear.

It's so striking that in if you read a new world translation, the Jehovah Witness Bible, they had to add the word other in all four times.

Because they realized that if he created all things, he could not have created himself.

So they had to say all other things.

They go, oh, well, that's because they recognize that word others.

Not there in the Greek, but they say, well, we need it for English.

No, no, no, you need it to save your theology.

You need to save your doctrine.

Right.

Verse 18.

And he is the head of the church.

The.

The.

And he is the head of the body, the church.

He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.

Oh, that's what.

He's firstborn.

Now, he's not the first to die, so can't mean that.

That in everything he might be preeminent.

Why do I think that the firstborn, both in all of creation and in death, is about preeminence?

Because the text says so.

Verse 19.

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile himself to all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of the cross.

So first Corinth.

Sorry, Colossians 1:15 to 20.

Keep that in your.

In your Bible market.

So you have it ready.

Then what I would say, excuse me, to do is put a little footnote right in your Bible.

If you don't.

If you're one of the people that likes to write in your Bible and in Colossians 1:15 to 20, just jot down Isaiah 44:24.

Now, you already mentioned Matt Slick, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna say I got this.

I did not pick up on this until I was reading something on Carm and.

And that's the website that the ministry that Matt Slick founded.

And he mentioned this verse, Isaiah 44:24, which says, Thus says Jehovah, your redeemer.

And I'm saying Jehovah specifically because that's how Jehovah Witnesses would see that, right?

You, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb.

I am the Jehovah who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself.

This sounds just like, you know, Nicholas, what you.

What you referenced in the Quran, right?

That God has no partners.

That's exactly what this is saying, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

And yeah, I've kind of got a whole line of train of thought on that too.

The first thing that really stood out to me because there was like three things was in Surah 4:48, Allah says that he has no.

Nor is he to be made to have any partners according to.

Right to the Quran.

So he's saying he's one God, which we would agree with, which is what we just flushed out one God.

And then in Surah's 112, 5, 73 through 75, right?

It's the what's being said there is that Allah alone is God and is only one.

I'm sure it says it in other places too.

The third thing based off of the research from what I was looking at is right and Surah 2:106 well now Allah is using the plural usage hour.

Well, that tickled my ear a little bit.

Which you know, I can read it here because I have it pulled up.

But nothing of our revelation, even a single verse do we or cause be forgotten.

But we bring in place one better or like thereof.

Knowest you not that Allah is able to do all things.

So with all three of those things combined, my mind started going.

I'm like, okay, there's a lot of plurality, right?

It's supposed to be one God.

But if Allah doesn't have communion within himself, naturally it begs the question why the usage of we?

So I started thinking about how that differs from the God of the Bible and the plural usage for God in the Old Testament, right?

As Christians, we have an answer for what I'll call the plural dilemma just for the sake of this argument of the Bible.

And then that's when I started thinking and realizing that the plural usage in the Quran seems to be a pretty big problem.

Especially since, right, The Quran says the book was given to Moses and that it's true, obviously, except for where it was corrupted, which we have no idea because no one will tell us.

But my point here is this.

In the Bible we see that God in Genesis 1:26, 27 for example, speaks in the plural when in verse 26 then God said let us make man in our image after our likeness.

Which is followed up in verse 27 by so God created man in his own image and the image of God he created him, which is singular, right?

But God is also speaking.

There's the plural and singular all being interchanged there, but it's all directed towards God is singular.

Other passages in scripture or where Elohim, which is plural reference to God but is used in singular reference, which could probably sound odd to us.

I mean, I know it did for me at first, right?

Hebrew is not my natural language or anything, but in the Hebrew it actually does make sense.

It's not that strange given the variety of ways in which Hebrew words in the plural form, right?

They don't always have to mean more than one thing, unlike a lot of words that we use and other languages similar to ours do.

Another thing to point out with that is that when we use plural form in English, for example, we don't even realize that we're referencing something that's in the singular.

So some examples of that would be like people.

The plural form, people, can be used for referring to people as in an ethnicity, a tribe, or a nation.

And we also use plural form nouns, like the phrase I put on my pants.

That phrase doesn't necessitate.

Or would it be assumed that I was putting more than one thing on?

Right.

But if I were to say I'm going to put on my pant, then it would make no sense because pant, a pant does not exist.

Therefore, pants in the plural form are used as singular to describe an article of clothing.

And there's lots of words in English that we use that are just like that and we might not even realize it.

Like the word agenda, for example.

The plural form is agenda.

But most people don't say on today's agenda, rather they would say in today's agenda.

Right.

What they're meaning there in that singular sense is this is what's going on.

But there's multiple things going on.

We can see that the plural form doesn't always mean more than one thing.

But how does this correlate to the Hebrew?

I can elaborate a little more.

Right.

It seems like that's more common.

Right?

Israel would have understood, but with the plural form of the word, it could be used for emphasis and respect also.

So, example, song of Solomon, 5:16.

The woman says of her beloved who is wholly desirable.

The Hebrew word, translated holy desirable is mahmadim, but its plural form, plural form of that is mahmad, which means pleasant, beloved, lovely, or desirable.

But the woman in song Solomon isn't saying of her beloved that he's desirable, but she's saying that he's wholly desirable or altogether lovely.

So with that case, the plural form is not meant to communicate number, but rather the emphasis and totality.

Isaiah 1:3.

Also another good example.

An ox knows its owner, the donkey its master's manager.

But Israel does not know my people.

I mean, but Israel does not.

My people do not understand.

So what's the point of that?

And what does that have to do with the Quran and the problem of the we?

Well, we've explained how God uses the plural forms, right, us, our and own, when speaking of itself in Genesis 1:26,27.

But the difference, and it's a big difference in the way that the Bible uses the plural form, God is speaking versus the way the Quran is using it plural for when Allah is speaking.

So here's the difference that I'm trying to get at.

As Christians we believe, right?

As Christians, just like a Muslim believes in one God, we believe in one God.

I mean we believe in the Shema, Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Every Christian since the day of Christ has believed that and we still do.

So since we believe that, right?

We wouldn't expect a contradiction in the scriptures to show otherwise.

So once going through having that understanding of the Old Testament, of the plurality of God, if you keep reading throughout the Bible and when you get to the time of the New Testament and that's where things begin to change, is you know, Jesus is doing all of his works, healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, forgiving sinners, everything.

But eventually, right, Jesus is saying things that stir up the religious leaders of his day.

What do I mean by that?

Well, John's Gospel for example, Jesus claims to be the great I am.

And this is in John chapter 8, verse 58, verses 58 through 59.

Jesus said to them, truly I say to you before Abraham was I am.

So they picked up stones to throw him at him.

But Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

So why is that a big deal?

Well the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because Jesus just claimed to be God Almighty, right?

As revealed to Moses at the burning bush.

And that's an important point.

I am.

So they clearly heard Jesus and knew very well that Yahweh is one God and man cannot be God.

So the test of this passage, just this one, I mean there's others as well, they could all take the same test.

Is Jesus either lied or he truly is God, the second person of the one true God.

Well take that into keep reading.

You get through the gospels of the book of Acts, another thing's revealed.

Acts 1:16 Brothers.

The Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

Well that's interesting, right?

The Holy Spirit did what he spoke also in Acts 5:3.

But Peter said, ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep you back yourself for yourself, a part of the proceeds of the land.

Now this is really interesting, right, because there should be some questions that are rising in our listeners minds right now.

If they are following this and haven't read these things.

Well, how can you lie to a spirit if it's not a person or doesn't have personage?

And then later in Acts 13:4 so being sent out by the Holy Spirit, right?

Paul and Barnabas are sent to Seleucia and from there they sail to Cyprus.

So again same question.

How can a spirit send if it's not a person or doesn't have personage, I. E. Will and desires?

I think for us, biblically speaking, the answer is simple, right?

God's revealed himself as the one and only true living God.

So if he reveals himself to Moses as the great I am, he then reveals himself as the Son of God and the person of Christ.

He then reveals himself as the Holy Spirit who is speaking and sending out apostles and being lied to.

All three of those have have the as Luke Wayne pointed out to me in a message earlier this yesterday about the book of Hebrews is Yahweh is attributed to all of those in that text, which is just fascinating.

And these are the very things, right Andrew, that the early church wrestled with regarding the nature of Christ because they held strongly to God being one God, but yet they saw the personage of the Father, the Son and the Spirit and how they all relate to Yahweh as being that one true God.

Even though they're distinct from one another, they're one God.

Which is why the councils were held and heretical topics came up, were recognized and condemned as such.

And the church inevitably, right arrives at the official doctrine of the Trinity as it's revealed in the Scripture at the Council of Nice in 325 A.D. so this is my last point and then I'll be done is because the Scripture is clear that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all called God.

As Christians we can answer the question of plurality usage of God in the Scriptures and God still be one being not committing blasphemy and the Trinity makes us our own usages as we looked at in Genesis makes complete sense.

But as far as the Quran goes, I don't think the Muslims can give a sufficient answer to that question.

Which is big, right?

Why the we?

Why the plural if Allah knows no others or has no sort of communion with himself, which is the problem we're talking about.

It's also worth noting too like you mentioned at the beginning of the show, it it isn't a new argument, it does seem to have been being made.

I just don't think it's a very well talked about or at least it's not Loudly talked about, maybe that's the word that I should say until I started looking up on it and then sent you some of those leads with videos of Muslim apologists and so forth.

And yeah, it's.

There's just a lot there.

And I found one scholar at least in regards to.

Because I didn't have a lot of time to do a lot of research between work, community groups and kids and wife and you know, all of that stuff.

You mean called life?

Yeah, life, basically.

Right.

But one scholar that I found, what he says is, it's a Muslim scholar, Mas Abdul Halim.

He says it should be pointed out that in pre Islamic literature and during the time of revelation of the Quran, pronouns do not appear to have been used as indicative of stat.

They did not change with social status.

And the plural of majesty in particular does not appear to have been used by or for addressing or referring to kings or chiefs.

The prophets and his early successors did not use it for themselves, nor in their letters to address kings and governors.

It was clearly in the Quran that such usage was introduced and has been shown on the basis of highly application of the concept of plurality.

What's interesting there with what he just laid out is that we wasn't even being used that way at all.

It wasn't even being used that way during the time of Muhammad's life.

And that seems to be a pretty good consensus among scholars.

Some say that it happened like in the 12th century, it took root in France.

But I haven't done enough digging in there to say exactly, yes, they're right.

But from what I can see so far is they are right in the fact that it's not being used that way.

But again, look at the Bible and its use of words like the Hebrew, like this one, Adam, meaning ruler, master or husband.

Example of this area is Abraham's servants call him adonim.

In Genesis 34, Joseph refers to Potiphar as Adonim.

Genesis 39, King David is called Adonim.

First Kings 1:11.

All of these are examples of plural or singular lord and master.

But the word is actually used to indicate authority and respect.

But what's great about it is it was normal and used commonly, right?

So given that God speaks to his people through language, how he's chosen to do so, so God would speak in a way that his people would understand.

So why would, you know, if, if God was using a word like we to his people, to the Israelites, right?

And they, it wasn't being used, they'd be like, huh, you know, it'd be kind of like me saying, hold on, I'll be right back.

I need to go put on my paint.

He would be like, huh, it just doesn't sound right.

Exactly.

So, again, it's just, I don't understand why it'd be being used other than, obviously, if it's something that's being manufactured.

Right.

And I don't mean disrespect to any Muslim listeners that they're on or anything, but there are just some similarities in which the way that it's written that.

I mean, I've read the Book of Mormon twice and it's a hard thing to get through, but there's a lot of stuff in there that's fabricated.

There's.

There's kind of insane patterns just in the stuff that I've been reading.

But especially, I guess my point on that argument would be, right, the.

These and vows that Joseph Smith uses, he uses them incorrectly, right?

Unless when he's quoting the.

The King James Bible, then he uses it correctly.

Unless it's the plagiarized portions of Scripture.

Correct.

But you can see that like, okay, well, if this was God that was revealing it, you wouldn't have that issue.

Right.

Corrected.

But like, in the Book of Mormon, you wouldn't have God saying, and behold, I am the Father.

And I mean, I am Jesus Christ, the Son and Father, right?

Motors, modalism, dualism, and sorts of isms in there.

And so I'm kind of seeing that here also.

And so, yeah, it just, it's.

It's crazy, right?

And I just, yeah, I, I just want hopefully our Muslim listeners to just see that and really wrestle with that and even go and look at the videos that their apologists are making.

Because some of the answers that I've heard these guys give are just, it's.

It's almost like they don't want to answer the question.

But anyway, well, I think that's all I've got with it so far.

So I think what they're trying to do is they're trying to save the position.

I think they see.

They see that there may be an inconsistency.

And, and so what we see is clearly, as you pointed out, right, Scripture, the Bible uses plural pronouns for God, plural names for God, yet says God is one.

We see the.

The Father has attributes only God has.

The Son has attributes only God has.

The Spirit has attributes only God has.

We see that the Father does works that only God can do, like creation or they're only.

Only God was, you know, raised Jesus from the Dead.

But I gave you a verse from Isaiah 44:24 that makes it clear that God alone created everything.

So we see that God the Father is involved in creation.

God the Son is involved in creation.

God the Spirit's involved in creation.

We see that the Father, the Son and the Spirit all have titles of deity and yet we also see that these three are separate and distinct from one another.

I, the one passage to, to think about would be the baptism of Christ.

Why?

Because Jesus is physically standing there while the Spirit is being seen descending as a dove and the voice of God being separated.

So you see the separation of them and yet all of them are called God.

Have the nature of God, do the works of God.

And I, I think if I look underneath in, on the behind you under my book is Greg Kokel's book Tactics is what it looks like.

Oh, actually this is, is that, this is a, this is a book by Beak.

Oh, I thought it might have been Tactics.

It was hard, it was hard to see from just the very edge of it.

But this I Son, I got from in, if you get my, if you read my book, what do we believe?

I got an idea from Greg Koko and it was that the Trinity is not a problem as so many try to make it out to be.

The Trinity is the solution to a problem because if you deny the Trinity, you have to explain why.

In the Bible God is referred to in a plural name and plural pronouns.

And then you have three persons that are or all doing the works only God could do, have the attributes only God can have, having titles of deity, and yet there's only one God.

But they're separate and distinct from one another.

You see, that's the problem.

The Trinity is the solution.

So if you remove the Trinity now, you're just stuck with the problem.

And I almost wonder if this made its way into the Quran.

Clearly from the passages we've looked at, you've mentioned some and we looked at last week and the week before.

The Quran has an understanding of the Christian Trinity.

Now it's not a right understanding, but it has an understanding.

Why do I say that?

Because in Surah 5, verse 1, Surah 5, 116 it says, and behold, Allah will say, oh Jesus.

Okay, Jesus, this is a law speaking to Jesus.

O Jesus, the son of Mary.

Did thou say unto men, worship me.

Okay, so Allah worshiping Jesus as God.

And then it says here, worship me and my mother as gods.

Huh?

Well see, it has the understanding of the Trinity just has the wrong people.

We, we know this because as you know, Nicholas referenced Surah 4:48.

What that one says is Allah forgiveth not the that partners should be set up with him, but he forgiveth anything else to whom he pleaseth.

To set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed.

In fact this is probably the only unforgivable sin in Islam is to claim that God is three.

So clearly they had an understanding of the Trinity.

Well what's interesting about that too though I actually found a quote from from a guy on this very topic.

His name know how to pronounce the I with the B and the n in Arabic.

It's also I'll just say Ibn Ishaaf.

So this is a quote from him and this is from his Life of Muhammad biography that he did A long time ago a deputation of the Christians of Nahran came to the Apostle Ellipses there they were Christians according to the Byzantine.

And I think just before I finish real quick, I think that this might be right.

The source that he's talking about where it's told that the heretics come and he encounters some Christian exiles is I think the context for this.

So there were Christians according to the Byzantine rite though they differed among themselves in some points saying he is God, he is the Son of God and he is the third person of the Trinity which is the doctrine of Christ Christianity.

They argue that he is God because he used raise the dead and heal the sick and declare unseen and make clay birds and then breathe into them.

So they flew away.

All this was by the command of God Almighty we shall make no sign to men.

They argue that he is the Son of God in that they say he had known, he had no known father and he spoke in the cradle.

And this is something that no children of Adam has ever done.

They argue that he is the third of three in that God says we have done, we have commanded, created, we have decreed.

And they say if he were only one he would have said I have done, I have created and so on because he is he and Jesus and Mary.

So there's the connection concerning all these assertions.

The Quran came down.

Now I will point this out.

There are a lot of Muslim critics of Ibn Ishaq who say that he's unreliable.

Now I'll grant that for the sake of argument let's say that's the case that he's unreliable.

But what we just read from what he wrote sure does match up with what the Quran says about the doctrine of the Trinity which is absolutely false.

Yeah and we have someone given a little bit of pushback.

So let's address this challenge.

And I don't know how to pronounce this.

O,

O, O, S, A, M, E, I, F, Y.

So but they say, what are you talking about?

You have Christians worshiping Mary today?

The Roman Catholics, yes.

Yeah.

But they don't believe she's God as the Quran says.

And that's the difference.

Right?

The difference is, is that.

Yeah.

And we criticize them because they do.

The, the Catholic Church seems to almost give Mary the, as if she has attributes only God can have.

But they, because they haven't thought it through.

And this is a challenge I usually will have with Catholics is to say how can marry a temporal being be able to hear the prayers of all the people all over the world all at the same time?

She would have to be omniscient and omnipresent.

And they'll go, no, no, no, no, she's not.

That you see.

So when they try to make the case of referring to Mary.

I know, and I said this last episode, last episode last week.

I know of no Christian sect, heretic or otherwise, that believed Mary is God.

Now there is references to a group that you only find in Muslim articles.

So Muslims refer to a group, a sect of Christianity that must have been so small that we don't know of it outside of Islam.

And that's why I mentioned if this even Ishak is unreliable.

Well, he kind of just gave us that, that story, that piece that is only referred to and maybe he's one of the sources that you're talking about.

But it creates a problem.

It, it, I think it does.

And, and this is, you know, so what we end up seeing is that we with, with the idea of the Quran, they have an understanding of the Christian belief that God is three persons, one God, at least a multiple.

Not of gods, but, but actually that if you read the Quran, it does confuse that.

And that's one of the arguments I have against the Quran is the Quran makes the argument that, that we believe in three gods.

As I read Jesus and Mary, to worship them as God as if they're separate gods.

And so that's not what the claim of the Bible would say.

So like when we see that, it shows that there's an understanding, but it's not a right and understanding.

So let's see Andrew, who's from down under there in Australia, he says Mary has divine status according to Roman Catholic to the Ro, to the Catholic Church.

And I think he means Roman Catholic Church.

It is a very interesting thing because she.

They'll deny that she's God and they'll vehemently say that that's not what they're saying.

And yet you're.

You're right, Andrew.

As I said, they seem to give attributes of God to Mary and, and they try to find ways to get around it.

I think very much like the Muslims try to find ways to get around the use of we for Allah, who is singular, you know, in absolute monotheistic, one person, one being.

Okay?

And so.

And Wesley.

This is what Wesley says.

It's just Catholics, and Catholics aren't Christian anyway.

He's got a good point there.

You know, we do have to realize that the, the idea, though, keep in mind, the idea of Mary worship is something that has not been held throughout all, all of Roman Catholicism.

Okay?

When.

When we look at that, they.

You can see early references in the.

The first couple centuries of the Christian church to Mary being referred to the mother of God.

And people today in Roman Catholicism think that is a reference to Mary.

And so they ended up coming up with this idea that the, the Immaculate conception being that Mary had to be born sinless to give birth to a sinless being.

Logically, let's think about that.

If Mary had to be sinless to give birth to a sinless being, wouldn't Mary's mother have to be sinless to give birth to her?

And so on and so on and so on.

And they'll say, well, that's why you had to have the Immaculate Conception, so she can give birth to a sinless being.

But why, why wouldn't you just say that Jesus was the one with the miraculous birth, miraculous conception, because he was without a human father.

In Romans 5:12 and following says that the sin is passed on from the father to the children.

So if Jesus didn't have a human father, sin wouldn't have been passed on through the father.

Then therefore, he would have been born a sinless being without any immaculate conception.

See, see, this is the thing.

What we see is there's a perfect logical argument within Scripture where these others, Catholicism, Islam, they have to kind of jump through hoops to get it to work.

Now.

They wouldn't see that they're doing that.

And so what you end up seeing there is then that the idea of.

That they have of Mary, the term mother of God was not a reference to Mary but of Jesus.

Okay?

When it was used in the first few centuries, it was a reference to the fact that Jesus is deity.

When you read it, read the early Church fathers read it in the context and you.

And you'll see it's referencing Jesus.

And so later in history, after Islam, by the way, is when you start seeing the worship of Mary.

So to the individual who wanted to make the case that people worship Mary today, they didn't in Muhammad's day.

So either way, if you want to argue for the Catholic Church, you have to recognize the Catholic Church weren't.

Was not worshiping Mary the way they do today and having the view of Mary they have today until about a thousand A.D. it was.

I think it was Pope Innocence II that really started that.

What century was that?

I think he was like 1100.

Well, according to some of the sources, the term we, the usage of we in the Quran is around that.

That time period.

Yeah, but the Quran would have been written by 700.

So weird.

Okay.

Right, so.

So my wheels just started.

Yeah.

So.

But you see, my argument.

My argument is, is even if you want to argue for the Catholic Church worshiping Mary, the Quran was already written before that practice started.

So you can't even use the Catholic Church as the example for the Quran's use of this because it's before the Roman Catholic Church was doing it like they do today.

And, and truthfully, the real guy that really got a lot of Mary worship going is a guy called Pope John Paul ii, because he was very into Mary worship, and he believes when he was shot that he saw a vision of Mary.

He believes Mary saved him, and he was alive because of Mary.

So he got.

He was very much into that, and that really got things going even more.

So so we got to recognize that that's actually a pretty recent view.

It's not an old view, and it's not a view that would have been held during the time of Muhammad's day and the writing of the Quran.

So this can't be what the Quran is referring to there.

So.

And it's interesting, some of the stuff you mentioned, because you and I did not talk during the week very much.

You sent me some videos, I looked at them, and the, the thing that we ended up seeing is there's a lot of what you said that I saw in my study as well.

Now Wesley is saying.

I'm gonna have to clarify something here.

Wesley is saying, wow, believing Mary saved him.

When we.

When I said saved, not in the sense of salvation, meaning regeneration.

Okay.

Though there is some references there too, that you, you know, we need to go through Jesus or go through Mary to get to Jesus is.

You see that in their, in their Belief, but the idea that saved, in the fact that he almost died, he was shot, and he thinks it's Mary who kept him alive.

So just want to be careful.

The word saved can be used different ways.

So,

you know, and here Andrew from down under is saying, you know, she spared his life on, on occasion.

Yeah.

So that's, that's kind of the thinking with that.

So, so one of the things.

So let's, let's look at some of the things that I had noticed that I, I looked up, by the way.

I did, I did go and say.

All right, and, and I, I, when I use AI, I'm gonna say it.

I, I don't.

I didn't have time in one week to read the entire Quran.

And so I asked AI as a, as a Islamic scholar, to provide all of the, the surahs that refer to Allah in a plural pronoun or plural name or as if in a plurality.

And I was actually quite surprised.

Now, I have not had the time to go through each of these and verify it.

Okay, but I'm just going to give you, you know, I'm just going to give you the surahs and not each of the verses, because there's a number of verses.

But, but I, I'll give some just so we.

You have some.

But as I look at the list here that AI came up with, and so I'm being really clear, so no one, you know, any of the Muslims don't sit there and say, oh, see, you're, you're false.

Because I'm saying that this is AI, you know, generated, and it is.

Has not been verified by me.

Okay, so I'm, I'm being really clear with that.

But it, it did seem to come up quite a bit.

You know, Sura, Surah 2:23 says, we have sent down 35.

We said, then there's sir, 2:50, 7, 87.

2:53.

Okay, you have Sura 3.

Yeah, you have.

There.

You have 3, 42, 55, 81.

Now I'm just going to tell you.

It's, it's Sura 4, 5, 6, 8.

Sorry, not 8, 10, 12, 11, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 32, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 43, 44, 46, 48, 50, 51, 54, 57, 65, 76, 78, 87, 94, 105, 108.

Now, I say that I am laying all that out to show that the this is the majority.

There's 114 siras, or chapters.

Okay.

And now we look at this, and if I, you know, I could count them up, there's quite a number of chapters that at least have some references to a plural.

Now, are all of these.

Well, maybe not all of them, but there's enough of them that we could probably look at.

It's obviously an issue within Islam.

So here's some of the things.

You sent me a video that I did take a look at and that.

That person, the Muslim person, Muslim apologist who made a reference to.

And I, I don't know that I'll pronounce the Arabic correctly, but I think it was for we and na, the plural for us.

And.

And making a distinction there, saying that the.

And.

And he made the distinction.

This was interesting that these words are always used consistently this way to refer to what he was calling a royal we.

So what's the royal we?

The royal we is the idea of a, A, you know, king that would just say, we are going to do this, and it's.

It's him who's going to do it.

You know, we as a, as a nation, the king decides and the whole nation, like, we, we are going to war.

No, no, you're going to war.

The rest of us are being forced.

Right.

So there is this use.

And this is known that, that people do speak this way.

And you know, you were referencing this, Nicholas, when.

In what you had studied as well.

Right?

The.

The fact that.

So the argument is, is that Surah 15:9, I have here where it says, indeed we sent down the Quran.

And, and so you look at that and go, okay, who's the we that sent down the Quran?

The idea of the Quran is, in Islam is that that the Quran, or God's word is, Is from heaven.

So it's perfect in heaven.

Somehow, as Nicholas mentioned, like the one we have, the copy we have got corrupted.

Which is kind of interesting because like, even Nicholas, if you heard him say, we're not sure.

They don't say which path.

Like what got corrupted in fact.

Huh?

I said it's an easy out.

Just.

Yes.

Throw something on it and then walk away.

Exactly.

Which.

And you know, and Mormons do this, they say, well, you know, Bible is right as long as it's interpreted correctly.

And you go, well, what's not interpreted correctly?

Because when Joseph Smith did his inspired translation, it was pretty much the same as, you know, he did some minor edits.

But.

But you know what?

That's not even a copy of The Bible, they, that's.

They use the inspired one, right?

They use the King James.

Now they've opened up some others that they can use.

But you know what I learned recently

that they can use a lot now.

Yeah, but you know what they don't have on that list?

The Joseph Smith,

like.

Okay, that's not one of the bit.

But I.

To argue, to give a defense, though, there they were saying these are other modern translations you could use, and Joseph Smith wouldn't have been a modern translation because he, he was using the.

Even though at that time in history they didn't use the Elizabethan English.

He was.

And so, but the real thing is, and I mentioned this last week, is we have copies of the Bible that are older than the Quran.

So now you got a dilemma.

Because if the Quran said you could trust the book, but it got corrupted somewhere else down the line, when did it get corrupted?

Because if the Quran says you could trust the book, we have copies of that book.

And it's, it's not fundamentally different.

Right?

So.

So that becomes an interesting, an interesting thing.

And so, so this idea of a royal we is this idea that, you know, that it's speaking of God, speaking in a plural sense, even though he's one.

All right, so.

And that is the argument that I saw in a couple of the videos you sent.

I saw a lot of arguments, and I think this would, this seems to be.

Now, I, I do want to note what I'm saying seems to be why.

Because it's not something that is so clear or clear enough that we could say this is it.

Okay.

There is some disagreement here within Islam.

Okay.

And, and so for that reason, it, it makes it harder to, to see this.

Okay.

And so Jesse's saying, yep, Islamic dilemma.

Well, I, I really like, as Nicholas called it, the.

Is Islamic plural dilemma.

Right.

Because that's, it's, it's.

It is a problem in Islam for the plurality of Allah.

Um, so.

So as we look at this, here's one of the things that I, I granted, I'm not a natural aric Arabic speaker, so I, I just, I want to be clear where my, my expertise is lie and where they don't.

Okay.

And this is one of the things, when we do apologetics, we have to be honest folks don't try to deceive people in, in claiming something that we don't when we don't really know something, because the Muslim will call you out on it.

Just like I call out Muslims when they say, I believe in three gods when they do that.

I go, you don't understand the Trinity because your Quran doesn't understand the Trinity because its author didn't understand the Trinity and therefore the author can't be God because God knows everything.

Right.

And so you, we want to be careful with it.

So I'm not an Arabic speaker.

I would have to do a lot more research into this.

But I did see some references that seem to indicate that.

And, and Nicholas, you made reference to this as well, that in the time of Muhammad and the Quran, classic Arabic doesn't use a majestic plural.

Yeah.

And it's crazy because again, God is going to speak to his people.

He's going to speak in a way that is intelligible, that's understood.

Right.

So yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy that it wasn't common at all.

And that really fascinated me when I started looking into that.

Yeah.

And what you're bringing out for folks to better understand, God is going to speak to the people he's writing to.

It is upon us to, when we interpret the Scriptures is to understand what it meant to its original writers and hearers, not to us.

First and foremost, we first have to interpret it in its historical context and then bring it forward.

And this is an argument that Joshua Evans had when he, when I did a debate with him where he said, well nowhere in the Bible does it say where did Jesus say I am God, worship me?

And I said that is correct.

It doesn't say it that way explicitly.

But nowhere in the Quran does it say I am the Prophet Muhammad, the last of prophets, there will be no others worship the God I worship.

Therefore he wasn't a prophet because he didn't say exactly that.

And it was so funny because Joshua Evans like, yes, but that's what he meant.

Oh, so when Jewish men picked up stones to stone Jesus for saying, I and the father are one.

And before Abraham was I am.

And they say they're stoning him for blasphemy.

They understood what he meant.

He was explicitly claiming to be God.

And that is where, you know, you end up seeing things break down.

Now if there wasn't a classical Arabic usage of the time of a majestic or royal we, then how do we see this in the Quran when that wasn't the language of the time?

As Nicholas said, when God writes, he writes to those people to speak to them so that they would understand.

Why would he speak to Muhammad in such a way that wouldn't be understood for hundreds of years?

I mean Muhammad wouldn't be able to Understand it.

Then Humble Clay is saying to the Islamic dilemma.

This is a fun quote from Matt Slick.

Twisting a quote from Matt Slick.

So many Islamic dilemmas, so little time.

And for folks that don't know the reference, Matt Slick says, so.

So many, so many heresies, so little time.

He actually has a T shirt that says that, which is always fun when you walk around the street and people go, what?

What?

It is a really good way to start conversations.

So, you know, the thing that we have to see is that as we look at this, I, I do agree with you, Nicholas.

It would be hard to make the case that the Quran is using a royal we if that is not something that was used in the culture at that time.

Now, that doesn't mean that the Quran is not doing that, okay?

It just means there's greater burden of proof on the Muslim to make the argument because this is not used in the culture of that day.

Then, then the argument, you have to show why Allah was speaking in a way different than the culture.

Does that make sense, Nicholas?

Yeah, exactly.

Because, I mean, it'd just be confusing again.

It's just like I try to think, right, Sorry, I lost my train of thought earlier on, earlier on.

But it happens a lot earlier on in the show, right?

I was mentioning how, like, you know, sometimes for us it's like hard to read.

Like, remember when I first became a Christian and I was reading through the Bible and I read Genesis, it was a little confusing, right?

I'm like, okay, we and are.

I don't understand this at all, right?

And I didn't understand it for a while until I started learning about the doctrine of the Trinity.

And then also see in the Gospels and other places like, oh, okay, so yeah, if you don't have that, it's almost just like unintelligible.

It just seems nonsensical to me.

So, yeah, it definitely makes sense because why would God want you to be confused about what he said?

He never has and he never will.

He speaks truth and he speaks it very clearly.

Now, if it's a prophecy, right?

Like some of the prophecy read through Isaiah or Jeremiah.

Some of that stuff is like, what is going on here?

One wasn't written directly to us.

We don't know unless we go and study the timeline, everything else, it's not going to make sense.

And, well, not sure.

But when it comes to the basic truth of what God's trying to communicate to his people, right?

That's why the New Testament is so clear, because he wrote it to all of us, right?

Romans 10 says that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Well, how are they going to believe what he said?

Right.

If he spoke unintelligibly, then sure.

But he spoke it intelligently.

He spoke it very plainly.

Yeah, makes sense to me.

Yeah.

And, you know, I. I want to dig into a little more because there's some more things that I had.

I had.

And what I want to do is lay out a case with what Nicholas has, you know, what he looked at and discovered.

And what I want to do is lay out a case of how I would go about starting to do the research on this to see if, hey, is he onto something?

And I said to you an email, I think you're onto something here.

And so how do we go about what should we focus on?

How should we study?

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So with that I, you know, I started to mention the, the Arabic language, the inconsistency there.

That seems to be.

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There's four things that I would do as I was starting to do and I'm going to try to spend more time in.

It takes a lot of time to do this, especially when you're doing historical stuff.

So it's not something.

You know, I always jokingly say that I read the Quran so you don't have to.

Right.

That's why I wrote the book what do we believe?

And the, the hope is, is that you would be able to gather information that you know from years of studies.

Where was it?

Somewhere, Somewhere in here, I think it was.

Andrew from down under said it could take a lifetime to study other religions.

Well, I can't find it, but, but yeah, it would take a long time and therefore having someone else study it, that, that is trying to be faithful to it.

That's why I gave my chapter on Islam to two imams.

Right.

And had rabbis review the section on Judaism because I want, I don't want to misrepresent it.

Okay, so Wesley has, is in the backstage.

Let me bring him in.

Wesley, welcome.

Hello, Andrew.

I'm a bit sick.

So sorry about my voice.

You're.

You're not a bit sick.

Your.

Your father told me that you slept for like seven days straight.

Oh my God.

I'm better now.

I didn't think he would be telling you.

Well, I'm kind of better as you cough.

Well, hi.

Well, I did ask.

Anyway.

Anyway, I joined because I wanted to ask this thing about mus.

The Muslim stuff.

And I was like, you know, this is a great time to just join and ask about it.

So you guys were talking about the how in the Quran, it misunderstands the Trinity, right?

Like, I don't remember the reference, but what I don't get is like, why is that like a big argument of ours?

Because the Quran, they're, they're Unitarians anyway, so.

Because I heard them say, well, it doesn't understand Trinity because it's saying it doesn't exist.

Like, so I don't get why that's like an argument we use based on what they say.

So the, the reason would be this.

If, if there's anything in the Quran that's not correct, for example, the Trinity or in the Quran, it says that the, the seed of the man is formed in the small of his back, right?

We know that's not where semen is formed by.

So biologically that's wrong.

The reason is, is because if there's anything wrong in the Quran, then its author could not be God, because God knows everything.

So if you can point out something now and, and there's a difference between something that's definitionally inaccurate versus an A, something that seems inaccurate.

The example I always give that people will bring up Jesus.

In one passage it says he healed 10 lepers.

And in another gospel it says one leper came back, the leper who is a Samaritan.

And so what you see is people say, well, see, one says 10, one says one.

But the one that says once doesn't say that he healed one, it says that one came back.

So he healed 10, but only one returned to him.

So that's not a definitional inconsistency, consistency.

Another example people use is Jesus saying that the mustard seed is the smallest seed, when technically it's not the smallest seed.

It is the smallest seed for that region.

Now, getting back to what Nicholas said, God speaks to those people, and we have to understand it to who he's writing to.

At that time, they wouldn't have understood seeds that we can find.

I think it's, I think the smallest seed was.

Is in India.

They wouldn't have that in Judea.

So God wouldn't reference something they wouldn't understand.

That's not a definitional thing.

But when you define the Trinity as three gods, and those three gods being Allah, Jesus, and marry, that's definitionally wrong.

When you define this, the seed of the man being in the small of the back and not the testicles, that's definitionally wrong.

And geographically wrong, It's a wrong location.

Okay.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it's like the level of like how wrong it is, I guess, is how you describe it.

It.

Well, it's whether it's a, whether it's actually wrong or just something that seems inconsistent.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, like.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Because like, misunderstanding biology, that's.

God wouldn't do that.

Obviously he know he made it.

So that's definitely wrong.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I didn't know they described the Trinity as with Mary.

I did not know that's how wrong they were on that.

So.

Wait.

Yeah, so this, this, this, the, the reference I gave earlier was Surah 51 16.

And it says, you know, where Allah says, O Jesus, son of Mary, death, did I say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods.

Right.

Well, no, that's not.

We don't worship Mary as God.

So.

Yeah, well, Catholics.

Well, Catholics kind of do, but we'll see.

But we don't.

Like, also it was his historical development, so that wasn't even in that time frame.

Correct.

So you can't even use the Catholics.

And, but they would deny that she's God.

But they do worship her as a God but not claim she is God.

So I know it's.

They don't make sense, like, at all.

It's an inconsistency.

Just like Nicholas is bringing up an inconsistency in the Quran because they're arguing that there are no partners for God.

There's.

There are no other persons.

And then using a plural pronoun for him, then now what that would be, I would argue.

And this is just on.

Unless I see more.

And right now I would argue that this is in the same category as I made with the.

The smallest seed and the lepers.

Right.

It is.

If, if I'm saying if, if this is a royal we, we have an easy explanation.

Okay.

Okay.

And, and that's why, as Nicholas said, we got to look into this.

To say is there good arguments for a royal we, or are there things that break that down?

And, and he already mentioned one.

As, as I noticed as well, is, does the language at the time Support the argument for a royal we.

If it doesn't.

Okay, that's one ding against it.

And with each of these, what it means is the burden of proof is on the Muslim to have to defend the case they're making.

Yeah.

You see how that works?

Yeah, I see that.

That makes a lot of sense now.

Yeah, thanks for that.

Any, Any other questions you have for us tonight?

No, I don't think so.

I'm not like the.

I'm not big on Islam, so I, like, don't know much else I would ask, so.

Yeah, well, this show, you can.

And that's not.

I, I should.

I always have to remember to say this throughout the show.

But folks, this is.

You can come in, in here like Wesley did.

Just go to apologetics live.com, it's scrolling at the bottom there.

And you can ask any question on any subject.

So, so we, we usually, if we have a topic, try to devote the first hour to it, but after that anything can, can be discussed.

So.

Oh, I, Oh, I didn't know that because I'm like, oh, it has a title and we've just been talking about Islam, so it's like we probably want to ask questions on the topic they're talking about.

We can, we usually do, but we always do allow for anything, which is always fun because unfortunately, it always seems at the end of the show, that's when we get these people that come in and want to debate things and it's like, why, where were you an hour ago?

We could have had a great discussion.

Will you come back next week?

And then they don't.

Now, I will say for, for, you know, folks who have been watching regularly, we had that Muslim who was in for like three or four weeks, weeks in the chat going off and like week after week.

And when I, when I invited him to contact us so we could set up a show and have him.

We have not seen him in the chat.

Now, he may be watching.

We haven't seen him in the chat since then.

I don't know.

Nicholas, what is it?

Am I that scary of a person that people are afraid to come in and challenge me?

I, I don't know.

I think that's because they know they can't are win an argument against you.

No, I think they just can't win an argument.

Yeah, I mean, arguments are very easy to win in a monologue.

Yeah.

Do you know, I have never lost an argument in my mind?

I mean, I, I think I have brilliant arguments and then I make my case before my bride and she Just looks at me and goes, you're wrong.

Yeah.

And I realized say that exact same thing.

And she starts giving me logic.

I go, you're right.

You know, I know exactly what that is.

Like, where I like biblical arguments a lot, so I like, practice it.

Like, I'm very knowledgeable on Catholicism, so I like doing stuff on there.

And I'm like, I have the, I'm like, I have the greatest arguments and then I like go give them to people.

And the people are like, that doesn't make any sense.

And I'm like, what do you mean?

I've been formulating this for like a week.

Well, yeah, that's what happens, you know.

Yeah.

And, and, and so when we make an argument, it, it sounds really good until we have someone that.

Usually the way it goes in my household is I have a great argument why we should go out for dinner and have some pizza or Italian food or.

And then my wife explains to me how bad that is for my health.

And I realize it's the one area I have, a lack of self control.

And she will remind me of that.

And I, and them usually like, okay, you're right.

I, I should have thought of those arguments.

And I don't know, I keep making the same argument.

I keep failing every time.

You know, I should come up with different arguments for eating Italian food, but I seem to lose out on it, you know?

You know, she's like, you're going and doing cold plunging and all this, and then you go and kill it by eating a whole bunch of carbs.

Yeah, so.

So yeah,

you know, I did think of another thing to ask that's also about Islam.

But, But I heard I was last week's program.

It might have been last week's.

I can't remember which week it was.

I've like watched.

You were asleep.

You were sleeping and, and delirious.

So I've like binge watched like all like the, like recent programs when I was like in bed and then I can't remember which ones.

But you were talking about how Muslims, like how they want to like, take like establish like a state of.

I forgot what the term is, but control, roll over the nation or whatever, where it's just an Islamic nation.

They want to instill their law.

Their law is referred to as Sharia.

Yeah, Sharia, that's a term.

And you're talking about like Muslims.

And if you like said theoretically, if Christianity goes, the Muslims would beat out the atheists.

And I don't know, I want more clarification on that.

Because I don't know, like, I've seen Muslims, like, online.

They don't seem like they want to go take over everything.

So I don't really know.

Well, there, there's some who.

Look, it's just like in Christianity, right?

In Christianity, you have those who, who are, you know, serious about their faith.

And, and that's not the majority.

The majority are mediocre.

Were not really faithful Christians.

Right.

And they go to church maybe, maybe they just go to church on Christmas and Easter.

They claim to be Christian.

Right.

Or you have some that sit in church and they've been going to church for 50 years.

They may be saved, but you haven't seen any growth in 50 years.

And you go, are they really saved?

Right?

And then you have, you know, people that are really growing and studying and wanting to mature in the Lord.

You have the same thing in Islam.

But you just got to remember, you know, if 7%, and that's kind of the number I keep hearing thrown around, 7% of Islam is, is really believing what the Quran teaches and practicing it.

But there's over a billion Muslims in

the world, so 7% would be quite high.

Yeah.

So 7% is, you know, from over a billion.

You're talking 70 million Muslims.

That, that.

So, yeah, the, it's.

It would say that the majority of Muslims that you'd see are not really practicing Muslims, just like the majority of professing Christians are not practicing Christians.

But there are enough that are actually practicing Muslims.

You know, they're, they're.

You're seeing it in the streets in, in New York right now, where they're actually marching on the streets and, and saying they want to take over New York.

I just saw in Texas.

I have to look this up.

Wow.

There was a video I just saw today in Texas that someone shared on Facebook of Muslims that are in the, in the streets.

They want to put a stop to the sale of alcohol and pork because it offends them.

Oh, wow.

And so they're now, you know, they're now trying to argue how we should live in this country that are not in a non Islamic country.

And so the person that shared this said, how should we respond?

I said I would.

My response would be, they're welcome to go to a Muslim country and live there.

I mean, if that's what they want, go to a country that, that practices Islam.

Because here's the funny thing.

You ever notice that all the immigrants that are coming into America that are Muslim are not trying to, to migrate to Muslim countries.

They're trying to migrate to Western countries.

And then you hear some of them say that they're doing.

They're going to out populate the, the non Muslims.

So those that don't convert, they'll be outnumbered and then they'll force Sharia on them when they have the majority.

Okay.

You don't have to have a lot of them.

Remember, if you have these Muslims that are practicing this and there's 70 million of them around the world and they're having 12 to 13 children to Europe's 1.2 children, how many generations will it take for the Muslims to be the majority?

Even if they're not practicing Muslims, they're gonna, if they're gonna vote Muslim, how long does it take?

Well, the idea, I mean, this was a study done in the 80s or.

Sorry, no, in 2000s that it would be 20, 35 and they would.

And the Muslims will.

Will be the majority in Europe.

Oh, wow.

The majority in the UK because our.

I don't know, I think I saw stuff going on in the UK with Muslims like having privilege over other people.

Like.

I don't know.

Well, it's.

Go ahead, Nicholas.

They've got, well, they've got areas set up that are under Sharia law.

Right.

And we have the same thing happening here now.

And this is all new information to me, but I mean, how is it that in the United States we have that dearborn.

When I heard about that, I'm like, oh my goodness.

Like, you know, but it's.

I think what I'm trying to say, Wesley, is that.

And Andrew's made this point over the past few weeks is that it's, it's not just a religious system, it's a political system.

So if, if you get rid of one system, or in this case you get rid of Christianity, you don't have anything.

Right.

Well, you have this godless mess of whatever's going on.

Well, they're going to take advantage of that because what you've done is you've created a vacuum.

So something has to fill it.

And so it would be something else that has a bigger force is going to fill that space.

So, I. E. With Islam, that's the goal is if it's to dominate and take over, then that's how they're going to do it.

And that's why it's so crazy that in our own country that our political system is so sympathetic to this other political system, to our system.

It's just.

Yeah.

Jesus couldn't have said it better.

A house divided against itself all.

Yeah.

So, so to the question you asked, why do I say that?

Islam versus secularism.

Islam wins if you remove Christianity from society and now you have Islam that's using secularism to gain control, to gain popularity, to get them so that they're not being attacked.

Once they have enough majority, they will, they will start dictating.

And if you have a fight between people who, the Muslims who believe in an afterlife, believe they're accountable to God and they will die for what they believe in.

And a bunch of people that say there is no God in this life is everything.

They're not willing, the secularists are not willing to die for what they believe in because they want to live.

Everything's about this life.

The Muslim will view that they're, they dying in this life gives them something better in the next.

So with that thinking they're willing to die for what they believe in and the secularist isn't.

You see, that's why they're gonna, that's

why they would lose.

Yes, they're just converting secularists, I guess.

Yeah.

And so, so they will, they'll go along.

I mean, I, I, I was shocked.

I think this is, I think this was the late 90s, early 2000s, that in the UK there was a woman who was married to a Muslim and he was beating her and she was wanting to divorce him, but because he was a Muslim Muslim, they sent, they sent the case to a Muslim court.

Even though she wasn't Muslim, the Muslim court said, you have no right to, to divorce him.

So she had to just leave the marriage.

No alimony, nothing.

He got everything and she just had to start all over with nothing.

Right.

Because they said, oh, even though there's English law, they, they, they've, there's, this is a lot of it is, and what you see in, in you even see it here in America, but really in England it was, they're afraid to be seen as racist and therefore they don't want to go after Muslims and say it's because of Islam or because they're Muslim, because they're afraid of being called racist.

And the, the other thing is a big part of the problem is, is George W. Bush, for the very same reason he, he didn't want to be called racist.

So what does he argue?

It's a, Islam is a religion of peace.

You know, if you go to the World Trade center monument, not monument, but museum that's there.

I've actually been in one, New York, I visited it once.

If you go through their museum, you know what you don't see any.

I've, I went through the whole thing looking for it and I couldn't find it a reference to Islam.

And yet they openly said that's why they flew into the towers.

There's no reference to Islam because they don't want to recognize that that's a problem.

And that is why it's a problem because people don't want to call it out as a political system.

And that's, that's actually why I said we wanted to cover it these in on this show because I think it's a more of a threat to America than Marxism is.

And, and a lot of Christians are well versed on Marxism after 2020, but people are not well versed on the threat of Islam.

People kind of did after 9, 11.

And that was before you were born, I think, Wesley.

Yeah,

so you just watch, you know, videos of what it was.

But some of us lived through it.

But, but the thing is that, that, you know, in the, in the 2000s P, there was a lot of study on Islam.

In fact, that's how my book what do, what do they Believe?

That's how it came about was because in my church I was asked to do research on, on what Islam actually, on what Muslims actually believe and what Islam actually teaches.

And so that's what I started to, to.

That's how this, that book came about.

And so, so I, I, you know, that's why I, I make that, that claim.

Does that help?

Yeah, that does it.

Right, that makes sense.

All right.

Yeah, Yeah.

I never noticed how like much on the political side and Muslims were.

Except in uk like in the uk it's so obvious, like explicitly discriminate against Christians and let the Muslims do stuff.

Well, but they're doing that here in America.

I mean, go you look, you got $18 billion in fraud in, in the Somali community.

And, and their argument is this is what they do in Somalia.

But see, we're not Somalia.

You know, they take advantage of the government there.

They, they cheat the system there.

Well, but we're not Somalia.

If you want that, go back to Somalia.

Right.

To be like it is here.

So, yeah.

If, if you left your country, don't bring it here.

Right.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I never, I only hear about like the secular stuff, like when talking about America, I never hear about the Muslim issues.

Well, because, because this is the whole reason we're trying to do this is because people focus on the Marxists.

Yeah.

And they don't see the, the greater underlying threat.

Right.

Because Islam in in the teachings of Islam.

For those that believe in the Hadith that talk about the 13th Imam, they must dominate the world for the 13th Imam to come.

So they need the whole world to be Islam to bring in the.

That with.

We would think of as their Messiah, which if you believe in a pre millennial position, their Messiah is everything that we see in the revelation in, in the Bible about the Antichrist.

You know what's interesting that you bring that up as I've asked Luke, Luke Wayne, my friend Luke Wayne that a lot.

I'm like, hey, like.

So I'm giving it more thought like is there a connection between Islam and the final beast?

Because if Alexander the Great was the third beast, then Daniel.

Yeah, we've got one more power and it's going to be some sort of political power.

I mean man, you could do another episode just on that alone.

I think that'd be interesting.

That would be interesting.

The revelation stuff is always interesting.

Yeah.

And, and it's, it's something that is, it's, you know, now it becomes more interesting if you're pre millennial.

Just saying.

But, but you know, the, the thing though is that as you look at that, okay, people have to recognize that Islam's goal is world dominance.

Right.

Christian's goal is to.

Is wouldn't be world dominance per se, but the gospel permeating everywhere.

And so, you know, you know, that's, that would be a difference.

So I think, see with the rise of.

Oh, sorry, Andrew.

I was just gonna say too, as I think as Christians, yeah, we just, we need to be equipped in this area because we're probably, that's probably going to become one of the main evangelism evangelistic groups that we share the gospel with in the coming years.

So yeah, it'll be like more Muslim now.

Yeah, I think we're going to be dealing with it quite a bit.

It more.

And that's why we're doing these shows to try to be a warning call for, for, for those to be, you know, study up, be prepared, be give arguments because the arguments people have their arguments against Marxism, but a lot of Christians don't have their arguments against Islam and politically nor religiously.

And, and that's why we're doing it.

So I'm gonna put, I'm gonna put you backstage.

Okay.

You know.

Right, I'll put you backstage.

You can chat there if you want, if you want to come back in.

I do want to get through these four things of what where I'm going to start researching and then you know, Nicholas, I don't know how you want to tackle, how you're going to tackle this.

The, you know, this topic of the royal, the we in, in the Quran but I want to give some ideas of how I'm looking to approach it.

First as I mentioned, the first one is to look at the Arabic language in that time.

Now I don't, I'm not an Arabic speaker that makes this makes it hard but I, I, you know, to look at works that were classical works that were originally written in Arabic.

Things to see.

Can I find references to the way that the word we is used at the time of Muhammad and the writing of the Quran.

Because if we, we don't see even in translated works a use of we the way that it's used in the Quran, it, it just becomes a harder argument for the Muslims to say it's a royal we might be something else but it just makes it harder if it wasn't used that way.

And, but you know, and Nicholas or had already mentioned it.

So the second, the second thing that I would look at is was Muhammad confused himself by his own usage.

In other words, you know, is early Islamic tradition, does it record companions and interpreters that were wrestling with this pronoun shift?

I want to see whether we see as Nicholas and I mentioned, Nicholas found some different YouTube videos with guys who are addressing this issue, Muslim men, a Muslim apologist addressing this from Muslims that are raising this question.

And he found quite a number of those examples.

So were we seeing that in Muhammad's time?

If, if we simp.

If this were simply a standard, well understood literary device, it would not have required X any explanation.

But if we see people struggling with it H then, then we start to wonder this.

So this wasn't a common thing.

So that might be sun worth looking into number three.

Where I would go is to see if the we simply means I in the majestic sense.

If that's the case, we should see it being used consistently in, in the same logical.

And this is son Nicholas kind of referenced as well.

Right?

Explains too much.

If, if we end up seeing.

Well let me just read the notes I have.

If, if we simply means I in a majestic sense, then the device is false, unfalsifiable.

If it can be invoked anywhere the text becomes incon.

Inconvenient.

This is the significance, the significant logical weakness that you can highlight in the dialogue.

And so essentially if we simply means I it ends up having no meaning at all.

What do I mean by that?

If you look in Genesis 1:26 where it says let us make man in our image.

The use of the plural pronoun there has a significant difference in the way language is used elsewhere.

So that significant significance is what makes it important.

So if this we means I in just a general way, it makes it unfalsifiable to argue that it's a royal we and basically says that it means nothing, it just means I.

So that becomes a thing to look at.

And then the last thing that I had here, the, the Quran explicitly condemns the Trinity.

Okay.

The.

So does it condemn the plurality?

Okay, so Surah 5.

73 condemns those who say Allah is three is the third of three.

And I think Nicholas Rose referenced this as well.

This is the funny thing is that he and I both, we, we didn't talk.

He sent me some videos.

The videos didn't mention this.

It mentioned the royal we.

And yet he and I both kind of went to the, the same thing here.

And, and so if the, if the author of the, the Quran is reacting to the Trinity one, as we already established he has a knowledge there was the Trinity, then you know, apologetically, we have to press on that plural language.

Why is he responding to a plural God, a plurality within God of a Trinity, and then use language that would be confusing for the Trinity.

Those are some areas that I would end up trying to do the research and where I'm going to start, start to look at to see whether there's some things there that I can use to make a stronger argument here.

Now I saw Andrew came in in the background.

So let me bring Andrew from down under in.

Andrew, welcome.

Greetings.

How are you, sir?

Doing okay, I suppose.

I have to go to work soon, but that's the way it goes.

Yeah.

And I should, I should mention if you guys ever see like here, I'll put up a comment from Andrew here where he said the Trinity is foundational to Christianity, which is one reason why the Trinity is attacked.

Now actually it doesn't show up here that.

So this kind of makes it.

But those who are on YouTube, you'll see next to Andrew, he has a little gold star and that means that he is someone who supports this program through, through, through YouTube.

So thank you for that.

Recently joined too.

Yeah.

And I appreciate it.

So you got a question for us tonight?

I don't have a question, but what I said before about the lifetime of study.

We get one lifetime.

It takes several lifetimes to study.

Yeah.

So that's something I've studied seen in the last five.

Well, most of my life I've observed it.

I just haven't expressed it.

Yeah.

And this is, this is why.

What I tried to do with the book, what do they believe was to.

I mean, I spent 14 years.

It was interesting because I remember when I debated Joshua Evans, he claimed that he spent.

He studied 14 religions in one year and knew them well enough to know that Islam was right that, so he left Christianity to be a Muslim.

I said, that's really funny because I spent 14 years studying five religions.

And I wouldn't say that I, I'm an expert in them, but I, what I did was, I did do them from there.

I, I tried to apply a systematic theology using their sources.

And then when I was done, and I don't answer every.

I can't.

I don't have the answer to everything.

And those who watched the last few episodes, you've seen where the death of Muhammad, I had to go back to notes and go, huh, I gotta go check this out.

This episode.

Nick Nicholas is like, hey, what about this?

And I'm like, haven't studied that.

Like, let's check that out.

Right.

That's the thing that you end up seeing is I don't.

Won't have answers to everything.

There's guys who devoted their whole, a lot of their life.

Like, like David Wood has devoted a lot.

And I'm trying to get him to come onto the, the, the show so we could dialogue more about it, but he has devoted a lot of time to this, so he's gonna, he has forgotten more than I've ever learned.

Yeah, right.

He has a very busy schedule with other people too.

Yeah.

And so what I tried to do is give a good bird's eye view of what the religions believe on core doctrines.

And then I went to people of those religions and ask them to verify, you know, authorities in, in those religions to say, is this accurate to what you believe?

And, and I've been, you know, so far, you know, I've, I, there's some people, there's, I, I do quote a, a liberal Jewish rabbi or more liberal Jewish rabbi than some Orthodox.

Like.

And so they don't, they don't take kindly to that.

But they haven't said that I'm wrong about what he said.

So.

Yeah, yeah, most certainly.

And just to allude to it, I've had Catholics try and tell me, or Catholics that have been formed, Protestants that have become Catholic tried tell me that I need to become Catholic.

Yeah.

Because.

Because they, the Catholic Church that we have today started in like, you know, the 1100s or the you know.

Yeah.

Well, because the Catholic Church have it right.

Because they, because they claim to have it right.

Name, Name a religion that claims they have it wrong.

Yeah, there is one.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Unless you, unless some Christians might admit that they don't have it all together.

That then that's the other problem.

Well, that's, that's not saying that the religion is wrong.

It means they're saying they're, they're wrong and it'd be a difference there.

Right.

I mean, every religion is going to argue they're, they're the right one now.

Go ahead.

I, I also work at a Christian school and we have to embrace every form of view that we see.

So there's actually a person who is now head of cleaning, one of the cleaning departments.

She's on the other camp, fortunately.

But she is something like a sinless perfectionist universalism and pro woke and still claims to believe in God.

Now here's the question I always have.

Why don't you see any of that in Islam?

And don't give me madame who's pretending to be a communist because he, he said he really wants to get everyone to be Muslim.

He, you know, he's willing to use it, but I don't think he's really believing it if he's going to be a good Muslim.

So he's either a bad Muslim and a communist or he's using communism and a good Muslim.

But he can't do both.

He has his own set of problems.

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm looking at that from an Australian perspective.

Perspective, because here in Australia we've now got our two members of Parliament who are Muslim and we're just starting the battle with this stuff.

Yeah.

You guys have been dealing with it for years with Omar and we have our equivalent of Omar in the form of a female Muslim member of Solomon.

And now think about that.

Why a woman?

Because in Islam she wouldn't be able to have that authority.

But they know in the Western world they're going to be more, more accepting of a woman that's a Muslim.

Yes.

And.

And so is like.

So here's the thing.

Omar will probably be killed or thrown out of office if Islam takes over America.

But she has.

The one in Australia has also said that we need to embrace Islam because it's the most feminist religion in the world.

Oh boy.

So said by someone who set of problems which we've got to sort out.

We've also got a very woke prime minister whom my Christian parents would also support.

Yeah.

So you either have someone that doesn't understand feminism, doesn't understand Islam, or is practicing what's called taqiyyah.

Taqiyah in Islam is the practice of lying to defend the faith.

So in other words, the ends justify the means.

And that's the whole problem.

You can't trust what they're saying if they.

If.

If lying is acceptable.

So Muslims can lie to you, can't they?

Yeah.

And then they get along with it

and say, allah says I can lie to you.

Yeah.

Okay.

What does God say?

God's.

God's.

One of God's attributes is he cannot lie.

Yeah.

And this is the difference.

They expect.

They'll tell us we can't lie, but they can.

Right.

So.

All right, well, Andrew, we're gonna.

As we're gonna wrap up.

I'm gonna.

I'm gonna let you go.

Thanks for coming in.

Thank you.

Go get to work and we'll get to sleep.

Yeah.

Ciao for now.

All right, so let me just end with.

This is my last comment, and then, Nicholas, I'll.

I'll hand it over for any last comments you have.

But, you know, so the thing is, is when.

If a.

If a Muslim is to argue with us that the.

The Trinity, the plurality of the Trinity is a contradiction.

We have the language, the use of language in both Old and New Testament that speaks of a tri.

Unity.

You.

It speaks of three persons that are individual, separate from one another, and yet all have the attributes of God.

The titles of God do, the works of God, and yet they are not.

They're not the same person.

So the solution is.

We see the references.

Plural pronouns, plural names.

So the.

The solution is one God.

We believe in one God.

One God in three persons.

Islam does not believe in that.

So if Islam uses a place plurality for God while saying there is only one God and one person, then you have a problem.

Well, as.

As Nicholas declared it, the pluralism problem, I think, is that how you.

Or pluralism dilemma, I think, is what you.

You said.

I like that.

Yeah.

The plural dilemma.

Plural dilemma.

So.

So I think that's really where.

I think you've brought up a really interesting thing.

I think it's a good thing to.

To.

To study and research.

So I'll.

I'll leave you any last comments that you have.

I don't think I have any last comments other than.

I've just been thinking this whole time.

Like, another thing I want to look into is why does.

Why does it seem like the Quran has to disprove Trinity for some reason?

That's something that's been nagging me this whole show as I've been looking at my notes like that that's bothering me.

So I think I'll look into that.

But yeah, I'll definitely be curious to see what other thoughts you have along your journey.

I know that when I start looking into it a little bit more, my trail is going to go pretty similar to yours.

Right.

Like, I got to get to what was going on in the cultural context to figure that out.

But given my busy schedule, that might

take forever and it's not going to be easy.

It's, I mean, this is hard.

That's a hard thing to do, to research.

And so that's where it's like we look for others who have done it before us, but it's better to look for Muslim sources that have done it before us because there it's more credible.

If you see the, them addressing it and, and making some of the arguments we're making, then it's, you know, it, it adds some credibility.

And so, but yeah, I think that to, and I think to answer the question you just asked, it's probably the same reason that so much of the Talmud responds to Christianity.

Because the enemy only needs to fight the truth.

Right.

You, you don't.

Like I, like I said, I think, you know, Wesley was on.

You don't see people going in with this nonsense into mosques about, you know, trying to have, you don't see women imams.

Right.

They don't even try that nonsense.

And so why not?

Because they're already on the, on the side against God.

They're already on the, on this dark side.

So they don't, you know, the enemy doesn't need to sit there and get them fighting amongst themselves.

I mean, they can as small squabbles, but that's not, you know, that's not.

They want to do.

They want to tear down the truth.

So that's why they respond to that.

I mean, there's, that's why so many of the cults that are formed always kind of, you know, they, they, they create themselves over, you know, a lot of Christianity.

You don't see as many of these cultic groups outside of Christianity.

There, there are some, but those controlling groups are usually using Christianity to do the controlling.

Yeah.

And I think it's because they got to destroy the truth.

You know, that's what they're after.

They don't like the truth.

They know what they, they know what the truth is.

Every Muslim knows the God of the Bible is the God that is true.

There's not a single Muslim that doesn't know that.

What they do, according to Romans 1, is suppress that truth and unrighteousness.

And the way they suppress that is in the practicing and belief of the doctrines of Islam.

But what Islam is, it's a suppression of the truth that they know exists.

So, Nicholas, I, I thank you for, for, you know, coming up with this and emailing me and coming on the show because I think this was a really good discussion and I, I hope this was really helpful for folks and I, I guess what I should do to end out because, you know, maybe some Muslims are watching and listening and, and so let me just say this.

You know, I'm saying that Islam is a suppression of the truth.

Well, what is the truth?

The truth is that God created the universe and then came into his own creation because he allowed Adam and Eve to sin.

And when Adam sinned, it brought in a curse that all that affects every person born of a father after, you know, born from Adam.

And so therefore every person has a sin nature.

We, we are sinners by birth.

We're.

Or by conception, I should say.

And we're sinners by behavior.

And so we both, we have both, you know, in, in we inherit sin, okay, and we have imputed sin.

And so the reality is that we needed a second Adam.

We needed someone who could pay an eternal fine because God is infinitely holy.

When we break his law, it has a consequence that will take forever to pay.

The only, only way to pay it is for one person to pay it forever or someone who is an eternal being to come into time and pay it once in time.

That's what happened.

God himself became a man being an eternal being.

His sacrifice on the cross can count for all of eternity for multiple people.

He becoming a man who never violated God's law, He can be a sacrifice for us because he.

He never breaking the law.

There's no sin.

He has to pay for himself.

That's what makes Christ different.

That's what makes Christianity different.

It is that the God man entered into humanity, died on a cross, paid a fine that we can never pay.

What the Bible says in Second Corinthians 5:21, he who knew no sin became sin, that we might become the righteousness of Christ.

He took sin upon himself that we might have his righteousness.

It's the great exchange.

And if we don't believe that Jesus is God and that his death on the cross was the only payment for our sins, there's no works we can add to it.

If we don't believe that, then we will spend eternity in a lake of fire.

We put our trust wholly in what Jesus did on that cross as a payment of sin.

That's what sets us free.

That's how we have forgiveness with God.

That's how we can have be in a right state with God.

And the Bible says for the Christians that we know that we have eternal life.

That's different than the Quran which says we can't know.

The Bible says we can know, know by what Jesus did that we can have eternal life.

So my challenge to you, if you're not a Christian, please turn from self, turn from your works, turn from thinking you're a good person, turn to Jesus Christ and have eternal life.

That is my final plea for this show.

We will be.

I don't have a topic for next week as I'm.

I'm just trying to take a quick look, but we will have a show as far as I could tell, next week.

That is the plan.

So with that, I just want to encourage you guys to remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.

And we'll see you next time on Apologax Live.

Have a good one.