[00:00:00] Andre: For me, I can't heal you. I can't heal anybody. They can only heal themselves. Your body is an incredible, intelligent mechanism I don't think anybody can heal anybody else. I look at myself as a remover of interference.

[00:00:13] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Welcome to Aim and Practice , podcast that helps acupuncturists and massage therapists shift from technician to transformational guide, so you can create a purpose driven practice that brings lasting change to your clients and yourself. I'm your host, Dr. Jess Reynolds. And today I am chatting with Andre, a seasoned massage therapist with over 20 years of experience whose journey through Eastern philosophy and practices have truly transformed his approach to health and healing.

So in today's episode, you will learn how adopting an Eastern approach can lead to deeper insights in pain management and healing by removing interference. Not healing is the key to unlocking the body's potential and how to balance the technical approach we all know so well with intuition and self care to sustain [00:01:00] a lifelong career in wellness.

And of course, much more. Now, there are those rare practitioners who figured out how to bridge the gap between clinical expertise and deeper healing, and that really is Andre. After realizing the limitations of just fixing people's bodies, he went on a quest, I mean a true quest, that led him to studying with Shaolin monks and Eastern masters who completely transformed his understanding of what healing really is.

Really means now he's helping practitioners just like you move beyond the treatment treadmill to create the kind of profound Transformational results we all dreamed about in school. So with that let's jump into our conversation with Andre

Well, Andre, hey, I am super stoked about this conversation because, rarely do I get the opportunity to dig into philosophy. And as I was going through the form that you filled out before we started this, reading that you're really interested in ancient philosophies, Chinese philosophies and Ayurveda, [00:02:00] I'm like, Oh, this is great.

Cause so often I talk to practitioners about the practice of Chinese medicine, but I'm super stoked to dig into that. So welcome. Thank you. I got some ideas and directions we could go in. But first what got you into this whole biz anyways? And more specifically, what on earth is qīnēi zhāng?

[00:02:17] Andre: Yes. So first of all, thanks for having me on the show. Appreciate it. I've been looking to looking forward to this for a very long time. Should I start with the Chinese song or should I start with what got me into this? I guess I should start with what got me into the profession in the first place.

So I've been practicing as much as I hate to admit this for 20 years. When I was 19 years old, so right out of high school, when I was 19 years old, finished high school, had no idea what to do with my life. And I had a conversation with my mother. And. She just, matter of fact, he said. You should go into massage therapy.

Now, I think that's because at the time she had a friend that she worked with and her daughter was in massage therapy already. So it was probably fresh in her mind and as a result she just spat it out. And I sat and [00:03:00] I thought about it for a while and I said, you know what, I'm an athlete. I was playing soccer at the time.

I was lucky enough to play internationally on South America and in Europe and absolutely loved it. I dealt with my share of injuries and as a result, I got physiotherapy. I got massage therapy to help me cope with the injuries. And it was always fascinating to me, you know, I'd go in, I'd have an injury, they'd start working on me, I'd be like, Oh, the pain, the pain is right here.

They say, I know, like, what do you mean? You know, like, I could feel it. So what do you mean? You can feel it. They start pushing on my leg and they'd be like, it's right here. I'd be like, Oh yeah, that hurts. How do you know? Like we can feel it. And that never made sense to me when I was a kid. So I was always fascinated by it.

And I started to take an introductory course just to learn a little bit about anatomy and the body. And I absolutely loved it. So I kind of went into the program. I had plans of becoming an athletic therapist afterwards and that's a long story, but it never happened. I've been doing massage therapy now for 20 [00:04:00] years.

Never looked back. Absolutely love everything to do with it. Unless you have a follow up question, looks like you're going to ask me something.

[00:04:07] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Well, I mean, I kind of do, but not, not really. It will naturally lead into the next question, but I am curious about You're an athlete, you're a young man, you're interested in athletic therapy. And now by the sounds of everything you do and the continuing education workshops you teach, you're, you're a far cry from athletic therapy.

So that's, that's quite an interesting transition. And I'm sure we'll get into the story of what led to such a profound change in direction. So curious about that.

[00:04:35] Andre: I can speak on it. As far as I'm concerned, I mean, we have all these different modalities, right? We have physiotherapy, we have chiropractics, we have osteopathy, we have Chinese medicine. For me, they all overlap. They're all kind of one and the same thing, in my personal opinion. All these therapies are directed at the human body.

The human body hasn't changed in centuries. In millennia. It's pretty much the same. It's always going to [00:05:00] be the same for the most part. So all these therapies are just different approaches to treating the body. So when it came to athletic therapy, when I first applied for the course, I didn't get in.

They needed two, there were two sciences that I needed in high school. And despite the fact that I've been practicing as a registered healthcare professional for five years at the time, They said, because I didn't have one of those sciences from, from high school that I didn't, I wasn't capable of doing the program.

I didn't qualify to do the program, I should say. So I didn't really have much choice in the matter at that point. And years later, when I could have applied again as an adult student and gone through all the trouble, I said, you know, why am I going to go to school to relearn things I already know? At that point, I had so much experience.

I kind of had a very good understanding about kinesiology and just the mechanics of the body and sports. And I said, you know what? I don't want to spend. 234 years in school, relearning things that I already know. So for me, it just, it didn't make sense to go back to school and waste the time. I prefer to Learn things that I didn't know [00:06:00] and you know, kind of spend my energy doing that kind of stuff So yeah, it diverted me away from athletic therapy.

I work with athletes all the time I don't do as much as the acute stuff and by acute I don't mean, you know Someone got injured and they come to me in my clinic. I mean, I'm not on the field attending to them immediately, but I still deal with tons of athletes in tons of acute situations and chronic situations.

So I mean, one could argue I'm kind of doing athletic therapy, but I'm not actually doing it. I don't have that title. I'm not trying to get any governing bodies upset with me, but I still work with athletes. So for me, I'm happy with where I am.

[00:06:36] Dr. Jess Reynolds: That's one of the cool things I think about getting into, well, many of the different sort of manual medicines in this complementary alternative health world is, there are so many different directions we can go just with our foundational education. Like you get your RMT certification. And from there, well, we can't technically use the word specialization.

You can specialize, you can take a million continuing education courses on [00:07:00] working with athletes and even though you didn't do the extra four years and get the undergrad in order to be an athletic therapist, you're kind of doing the same thing, right, or physiotherapy, or, you know, even nowadays, which is super cool, practitioners of massage therapy can go through a three year program in somatic experiencing and really help people with profound psychological stuff.

So it's so cool that with a baseline of something like massage therapy, there's like a. billion different directions that we can go in.

[00:07:26] Andre: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And that's one of the beauties of it, right? I'm an educator as well, so just seeing all these different students coming to me to learn, and their backgrounds are all so different, even though they're all massage therapists. You've got some who've been practicing for a year or two, some who've been practicing for 30, 40 years, and they're still coming.

You got some with the Chinese medicine background, who are doing acupuncture. You have some that are, they're just into fitness and being in the gym and training people. So, it's, it's very diverse. We're really lucky to be in a profession where. We can choose to guide our education and our career in [00:08:00] so many different paths and still be successful and kind of honor what we enjoy.

[00:08:03] Dr. Jess Reynolds: So then what led you down the path to the more, I guess, East Asian medicine route, be it qin zong or tai yoga massage. Cause that's, that's kind of, from my understanding, it's kind of your zone, your area these days at the very least. So what, what led you in that direction?

[00:08:19] Andre: Yes. So I think a lot of massage therapists will be able to relate to this. I practiced for seven years and my body started to break down. I had pain in every part of my body. I had shoulder pain. I had wrist pain. I got ganglions all the time. I had lower back pain and it got to a point where when I'm treating my client, most of my attention is not on my client.

My attention is on me because I'm trying to deal with the discomfort that I have in my body. And I realized two things. One, this isn't really very good care for my client. And two, I'm not going to be able to continue doing this Any longer than a couple more years without my body completely breaking down.

So I knew I had to make a change. I don't [00:09:00] recall exactly what got me into shiatsu. initially, but that was my first introduction to Eastern medicine. I saw a course at I can't remember the name of the school, but I saw a course for Shiasu and it was just a one week introductory course. I took that course and it completely blew my mind.

It's just a completely different way of looking at the body. You know, in Western medicine, you look at everything. It seems like through a microscope, everything's so specific, but when you look at things from an Eastern perspective, you take a huge step back and you look at the body as a whole. Okay.

And I just found that approach to be a lot more effective. Before I practiced it, it just made a lot more sense to me to look at the body as a whole and that the the source of pain. It's not always the same as the location of pain, and when I started thinking and looking things, looking at things from that point of view, I found it had way more success in my career.

So after that Shiatsu course, I was introduced to Thai Massage, didn't know much about Thai Massage. I went to get a treatment to try and learn a little bit about [00:10:00] it, and I absolutely loved the experience. We can, we can circle back to the fact that what I thought I was getting, I wasn't. As a Thai Massage was not in actuality a Thai Massage.

There were very, very small elements of it. But, I mean, that piqued my interest enough to make me want to go and learn Thai Massage. So, go online, look up courses in Thai Massage, where can I go in Toronto to learn? And, of course, a website for a course in Thailand pops up. So, I don't know, the course is, let's say, 20, 000 baht.

I have no idea what baht is. So I look up the conversion and say, wow, that's about the same price that I would pay to fly out there. Take the course. Accommodate myself. Experience this incredible culture. I would pay the same to do that as I would to stay here and do level one and two and three. So it wasn't much of a decision at that point.

I decided to fly out there and of course I fell in love with it.

[00:10:53] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Hmm. Now, I want to there's so many different pathways we take to dig into that. But one of the big curiosities [00:11:00] I have about after having gone through quite a few different of the Eastern modalities, and I'm assuming steeping yourself in the philosophies in the worlds of this. You mentioned that it helps shape your practice, but I'm really curious about how it helped shape the rest of your life.

Like, did it did the philosophies in the way of thinking about things change?

[00:11:22] Andre: big time. So, I, I, I've always had a little bit of an interest in martial arts ever since I was a little kid. But it was more of a fascination that I actually wanted to go out and start studying it. After I got into Thai Massage and Chiats and started learning more about the body, it made me take action and go and start doing it.

I mean, first I started reading all about the books, all the ancient books about mostly the Chinese discipline, right? I was mostly into Taoism acupuncture, cupping, moxibustion, tai chi, qigong, kung fu. I'm probably missing a couple cause there's a lot of things under that one umbrella. But when I started reading the philosophy [00:12:00] of it I'd go through books and books and books on these things.

And before you knew it, I was like. You know, I'm not getting anything out of these books and it's not to say those books aren't incredible. They are just like, at some point you have to actually practice it. So I spent all these years reading, reading, learning about these amazing things. And I'm like, you know, I'm kind of wasting my time by reading these books.

They're all telling me the same thing, do the practice. So I started doing the practice. I was lucky enough to stumble upon a monk that lives in Toronto. Who's not very far from me. He's a Shaolin monk. I think something like 31st generation. So the knowledge that I has is, yeah, it's, it's unbelievable.

The knowledge he has and the things that he can do. But after meeting him, I said, well, you know, this is my calling. So I started doing the Tai Chi and the Qigong, the Kung Fu, and then I can feel all of these incredible changes in my body and things that I've always believed because I read them. But, you know, we, we think a lot of these arts as being kind of magical or mystical.

And, you know, we see these Kung Fu movies where they're [00:13:00] You know, standing on a branch that could maybe support one pallet, but somehow humans standing on it and you're like, that's not real. But there's a lot of things depicted in those that I thought that's not real. That's just Hollywood movies and they actually are.

So reading about this, I believed a lot of them, but I want to experience it firsthand. And I can say that I've experienced some really interesting, cool things studying with that monk.

[00:13:23] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Reminds me very much so of chapter one of the Tao Te Ching, right? The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao. You try and write it, you try and read it, you try and philosophize it, and it immediately gets lost. And what I appreciate about what you just said and about the whole Taoist philosophy and, well, pretty much any of the Asian philosophies is that The philosophies themselves are great.

They're brain candy. They feel good. They bring you a peace, a sense of calm. But the real magic is in stop doing the reading and go and actually do the practices. So I'm so, so, so impressed and grateful that you brought that up because [00:14:00] that really is at the root of pretty much everything that we talk about in, in East Asian medicines as well as philosophies.

Super cool. And the fact that you met that monk, like that's, that's divine right timing right there.

[00:14:11] Andre: Well, it's, it's interesting how I met him, actually. I mean, of course, I met a monk, there's gonna be some kind of story behind that, right? So, maybe I should, maybe I should introduce Qin Esang, because it has to do with Qin Esang. So, I guess, okay, so let's go full circle. What is Qin Esang? I actually learned about Qin Esang in, Qin Esang's Chinese in origin.

Okay. But there's a Japanese version that's called Hara Diagnosis. So I actually learned about Hara Diagnosis when I took that shiatsu course that I talked about. The Hara is the abdomen. They call it kind of the C. And I learned all about Hara Diagnosis and I, I, I was sold. I'm like, I want to find, I want to find this course.

I want to learn it. I went online. I searched everywhere. I couldn't find it anywhere. There was, I think, one school teaching in, like, San Francisco. And, you know, it just wasn't feasible at the time for me to [00:15:00] travel. So I think I circled back a year or two later when I was ready. Couldn't find it. So, I was a little bit upset and depressed and, you know, I flew out to Thailand in my Thai massage course and I'm walking down the street and I saw what looks like a reflexology chart, but it was for the stomach, not the feet.

So, I said, that's heart diagnosis. So, I walked into the place and they're like, oh, yeah, Chinesan. I said, what's Chinesan? And they gave me the description of heart diagnosis. So, I said, oh. It's actually the same thing. One's just Japanese and one is Chinese. So what is Chinesong? Chinesong literally means internal organ energy massage.

So, it's an ancient Daoist form of visceral manipulation. You're going into the abdomen and you're massaging all the organs that are palpable. The ones that are not palpable, you treat through their reflex points. It's, it's such an incredible therapy. When I was doing a trade show practicing qinesang it's, it's not familiar.

Like, again, when I do talks about it, it's really interesting that this has existed for thousands of years. And so few [00:16:00] people know what it is. And frankly, I wouldn't have known about it. I know about the hara diagnosis. But I wouldn't have known if I didn't see that poster in Thailand. But I'm practicing this at a trade show and I do, you know, I'm doing all types of therapy, but Chi Ne Song seems to be a very popular one because there's so many people with abdominal issues.

So a few people come in for a treatment and one woman comes and she gets a treatment and she was having so much pain, so much discomfort in her stomach, and after I worked on her, she felt amazing. Like she was bouncing off walls. So she gets up. She says, wow, you know, I'm I'm amazed at what you can do with this treatment.

It's, it's unbelievable. I've been carrying this for so long and within a few minutes you've given me relief. You need to go and see master Lee. She pulls out a card and she gives it to me. I look at it and I'm like, okay, yeah, whatever. I don't chuck it, but, you know, I put it in the pile with all the other cards I've been given and I don't really pay attention to it.

About a year later, almost to the day, same thing, I'm doing a trade show, I'm doing Chinese Song, I'm seeing all these people, I [00:17:00] treat this one woman. As soon as we're done, she gets up, she says, Wow, you're really good at this, you're talented. You need to go see Mask Relief. That was the second time I've heard this.

I'm like, okay, I dismissed it the first time. Now, now I gotta see who this Master Li is. What, who's Master Li? What is, what does this guy do? I went and I mean, this would be a deep dive, so I'll let you ask questions if you want, so we can guide it. But I know why they told me to go see Master Li. He's the Shaolin monk, and he's got some incredible abilities.

[00:17:28] Dr. Jess Reynolds: I am, I am very curious about, Your belief behind how and why that happened? Was it just like, Oh, you know, coincidence has happened? Or do you kind of hold the belief of, you know, there's, there's actually a purpose and a meaning. So what do you actually feel about that whole interaction and experience?

[00:17:46] Andre: I don't really believe in coincidence. I believe things happen for a reason. I believe that, you know, kind of the law of attraction, right? You attract into your world. Whatever you're putting out. So you're, you're the creator of your own universe. And that's, you know, [00:18:00] sometimes I shy away from that talk because there's all this magical mystical stuff.

And when people talk about energy and energy work, I find that a lot of it's lost in translation. You, you know, there's science behind all this stuff. So it is science. This, it exists, but people don't know that science. So when they speak about it also, it almost takes away from, from the true meaning.

But for me. I believe in the law of attraction. You know, we're, we're energy. So what we put out either repels or attracts things. So you're attracting into your life. Whatever is in your life, you're your own creator. And that's hard for a lot of people to hear because a lot of people are unhappy with where they are, you know, We're human.

There's ups and downs. That's normal, but I, I really don't believe in coincidence. So what do I take from that? I've been searching for someone to learn from, and I'll use the word master, because I was searching for a master for a very long time. I refused to do any quote unquote energy work until I found one.

And that was about 10 years before I found one. And there's all these people that came to me and said, oh, go see this person, go see this person, [00:19:00] and I didn't get the right feel from any of them. So, when this came along, it's like, this is what I've been, you know, Waiting for for all this time and sure enough I went and I got one treatment from him And I don't know if you know what chi derogation is and maybe there's different so I'm curious as to your definition because when it comes to Chinese medicine, I'm actually a novice.

I've read, I've taken some introductory courses. I've read tons and tons, like I've read all the philosophy, I've read all the books but I'm not actually a practicing Chinese medicine doctor. I haven't done the formal education other than, you know, just more introductory stuff, but I'm curious if your definition of qi derogation is what I know it to be.

[00:19:38] Dr. Jess Reynolds: My understanding of it is it's a little bit like a combination of deficiency and stagnation. Perhaps with a hint of not rebellious cheek, cause that's its own thing, but of, of. Faulty action, I guess would be the best way to put it. So it's, it's a unique combination of other dysfunctions [00:20:00] within TCM.

So again, it's like you got cheat efficiency, you know, the energy, you don't have the gusto, you have a little bit of cheese, stagnation, things aren't moving, and then you've got a little bit of, again, not really. rebelliousness, but chi isn't doing what it's supposed to do necessarily, as in, you know, you got liver chi that's supposed to do this function, and then spleen chi that's supposed to do this function, and it's just not doing that thing properly.

[00:20:22] Andre: So it's not the actual application of the treatment. It's speaking to the, like the condition. Okay. So I, that's interesting because I always thought it was. Cheatergation was the actual method of treatment, which is what I'm speaking to. So, there's a method treatment that I found out about through reading all the literature.

And it didn't have to do with acupuncture. It didn't have to do with any type of external stimulation. It had to do with a master being able to induce an electrical current into someone without using acupuncture or anything. So these are very, very advanced practices that I've read about. And I'm like, I believe it, but until I went and [00:21:00] I saw him, I, I didn't, I'd never experienced it, but I went and I got a treatment and that's what he did.

He introduced an electrical current into my body without any devices. So I don't, I don't even know how much to speak on that because, you know, I mean, you know, maybe I'm open to speaking about it because one of the things about the, about the, the practice is that. There's people who are very gifted in the world.

I mean, a Shaolin monk is going to be someone who's incredibly gifted, but to speak on some of the specifics, the problem is that when people hear that, they want to go and have that experience. It's not necessarily people who are really in need, who are going for treatment. So a lot of the people he sees in treatment, it's not necessarily people who are in need.

They want to experience the cool things that he can do as a result of these practices. So I'm happy to speak on it. I'm not sure I'd give any more of his information out because people will flock to him to get treatment.

[00:21:56] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Right. You know, what, what we say in, in [00:22:00] TCM is a novice uses many needles. The professional, I think would be the best translation uses one needle. The master uses zero needles. So, even in Chinese medicine, we have this philosophy that part of what we do is we, we do our diagnosis, we identify the dysfunctions, whatever they might be.

And. The goal is to get to the point where no needles are necessary, where we are using, call it an energy that comes from the body or call it therapeutic presence or whatever you want to call it, but that that is a well founded principle within traditional Chinese medicine.

[00:22:35] Andre: and I think one of the things I found most amazing is, you know, apart from losing control of my body and him literally touching me and taking over my nervous system there's one he did, he does where your eyes are closed and he touches kind of between your eyebrows and your eyes are closed, but you start to see geometrical patterns as this stimulus is put through you.

Now that, that for me was incredible.

[00:22:58] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah.

[00:22:59] Andre: Yeah, there's not [00:23:00] much to be said about it. It's incredible.

[00:23:01] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah. That's next level, right? That's, that's again talking about the Tao, you know, the Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao. It's a little bit like explaining to somebody a dream or, or a trip report, you know, like you take some mushrooms and you try and tell somebody how you saw the interconnectedness of the universe.

And they're like what are you doing? So explaining these things that are literally ineffable, inexplainable. It's like, Hey, this is the thing. No way to explain it. Maybe give it a try, but nevertheless, it's, it's the power of these medicines. Okay, so you meet, you meet Dr. Li, you go through this experience likely a transformative one from the sounds of it, or more specifically from the lack of sounds of it, as you, you get into the what do you say about it, right?

And is that what sort of inspired you to dive even deeper into this, this world of philosophy in this world of, I'm going to pause there because what I was about to say is energetic medicine. And I want to loop back to what you said, because I think it, it's, it bears a discussion. I can [00:24:00] sense your reluctance and certainly empathize and strongly relate with your reluctance to start to talk about these less scientifically founded things.

We're on the world of massage therapy, right? We're in the world of complementary alternative and integrated medicine. And right now, the biggest and most important thing in the world of continuing education is Is it evidence based? Is it backed by science and research? Because if it's not, good luck getting it accredited for continuing education credits, and good luck drawing people in.

So, that's a real trick, isn't it? Because There are things that science hasn't explained yet. There are experiences that go so far beyond our ability to identify specific mechanisms using the current tools and understanding of science, but they're still so darn powerful. I mean, acupuncture, we still only pretend we know the mechanism, scientifically speaking.

So I just wanted to make sure to loop back to that and say I hear you and [00:25:00] it's it's actually pretty shitty that We can't openly say, all right, there's this thing that we're just going to call energy medicine because we don't actually have a better word for it and haven't gotten a scientific explanation for it yet.

without

tangent

[00:25:13] Andre: would still love to comment on that really quickly because I mean, Western medicine's guilty of all the same stuff. I mean, there's a lot of science behind all this Eastern medicine. It's just the science is not known by many people who want to talk about it and discredit it. So let's talk Western medicine, placebo effect.

I would love for someone to explain that to me because it seems like, you know, when you do the clinical trials and whatnot, it seems like placebo effect is more effective than any course of treatment that exists on the planet. So, I mean, right there we could punch a big hole in evidence based and say, you know what, if something survived 5, 000 years, I'm guessing it works.

And the only things I'm, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure I word this correctly, where I spend the majority of my focus is on studying things that have been [00:26:00] around for millennia. I still keep up to date with things that, you know, that are, that are current and all the new information that we have, but a lot of the new modalities and things coming out are all coming from ancient forms of medicine.

And, you know, science is always playing catch up to understanding why does this work. We know it works. We know, we know we've been breathing oxygen forever, but how long before we could see the molecules, right? That's, that's just the nature of science. In the end, the evidence is people are getting better, and what's important to me, and I think what they're trying to achieve with that is not putting people in harm's way, not putting people at risk.

So, if you can't explain the mechanism behind how things work, but you're not putting anybody at risk, for me, it's worth doing the treatment. Because there's, there's, Far more upside than any potential small risk and you have the evidence in that it, it's continuously work year after year after year,

[00:26:57] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate that. Really [00:27:00] appreciate that insight. And, and I think what you just said to emphasize again is risk because I suspect one of the biggest issues that that people have with these more complimentary alternative medicines is there are a lot of snake oil salespeople out there.

There are a lot of charlatans who are promising, like, and I come from this from a A very personal place. My, my grandfather was just riddled with cancer and he could have gotten a conventional treatment, which would have reduced the pain, wouldn't have fixed them, but would have reduced the pain. And then he went to an acupuncturist who was like, Oh no, we'll be able to fix this.

And the poor dude suffered and suffered. So I definitely have a beef against people who. make ridiculous claims and put their patients at significant risk. So I agree. Once we rule out the risk, then why not explore these things?

[00:27:49] Andre: right? I mean, that's, that's what we do. It's, it's everything. I mean, we don't understand anything about the body. You know, I, I know that's a, that's a very bold statement. It's like, well, [00:28:00] we, we know everything. We know the anatomy and the physiology and stuff. We're just, you know, one thing I love to tell my clients when it comes to pain.

I was like, okay, you do this assessment, and the assessment says you're positive for whatever hamstring strain. That's why you have the pain there, or you're, that's why you have the pain at the back of your knee. Okay, well you're positive for a hamstring strain, fine. But what makes you think that's the cause of their pain?

How many structures are there? There's ligaments, there's tendons, there's Even if you test and something's positive, that doesn't necessarily mean that's the source of the pain. Unless you're gonna test every single structure that exists, down to the cellular level, all the way back to the system level.

We're, we're taking educated guesses with everything we do and the more education and the more experience, the more likely you are to have a positive outcome and the less likely you are to put someone at risk because you have that experience and you have that knowledge base, but everything we're doing is guesswork and very, very educated guesswork, but [00:29:00] that's what it is.

[00:29:00] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah. I'm curious then if we, if we kind of tie these things together, so somebody comes to see you, right? And you've got this sort of one mind who that, that definitely understands anatomy, physiology, orthopedic assessment, identifying conditions, da, da, da, So you got that mind. And then over here, you've got this other mind that's like, okay, we've got China, it's in a song and we have Thai yoga massage.

And then we've got these more, I guess we could say energetic based medicines. So how do you, how do you reconcile those? Things when somebody actually comes and they're sitting on your treatment table.

[00:29:32] Andre: That's a very good question. I'm going to find a way to put it into words because quite frankly, I don't know how to explain what I do. It is so different from client to client. It's a very good question. I figure one of my ways of looking at a problem is throw everything in. Like, if you have a problem with your lower back, I'm going to work practically all, I'm going to assess by, by touch and by observing you and by asking you questions.

I'm going to assess what I think is the [00:30:00] problem. If I think it's more, I mean, for me, there's no one problem. A problem that affects a joint is going to also affect the fascia, is also going to affect the tendons, is also going to affect the ligaments. It's going to affect everything, and not just regionally, more so in that region.

And kind of spreading outward less so. It's also going to affect your state of mind if you're in pain and discomfort. So what I try and do when someone comes in, I'm looking at all things simultaneously. And I kind of gravitate to what I think is the most urgent in that moment of time. Or what's the, what's causing the most problem in that time.

Is it the lack of mobility of the joint? Is it the connective tissues not allowing you that range of motion to be able to move, to get more blood flow, to pump fluid through the joints? Is it more mentally, you're just So stressed out or so overwhelmed with life and with work that you're not able to relax and let go.

And whatever I think the number one cause is, I go in and I do everything I can in that [00:31:00] region, and then I branch out, and then I branch out, and then I branch out, and then I treat all the other structures in sequence of what I think is, is, is, the highest probability of it's, it's muscular. No, it's the, then, okay.

The second in line is it's the joint. Okay. The third in line is the fascia. The fourth in line is the compensating side. And I mean, for me, I've had so much success. I mean, at this point in my career, it's, it's rare that I can't make, can't help people make significant improvements. And no one, you're not going to ever be able to fix everyone.

And I mean, they're healing. A lot of healing all really comes from within. Right. But in terms of, as a practitioner, you, it's, it's very rare to not be able to help people make significant changes. And that, that approach for me has worked really, really well.

[00:31:48] Dr. Jess Reynolds: What did you mean about healing comes from within?

[00:31:51] Andre: Well, yeah, I kind of sidetracked because I, I am, you're right when I'm hesitant to say certain things. So I kind of, I kind of, I'm very careful with what I say sometimes. And [00:32:00] how it's going to be interpreted, right?

[00:32:01] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Oh, I get it. Fair

[00:32:03] Andre: I've never

[00:32:04] Dr. Jess Reynolds: You've got the space to explain yourself as appropriately and as detailed as you need. So it can be interpreted

[00:32:09] Andre: Yes, yes, because things can very easily just be misinterpreted. I've never been a fan of the word healer. I've had a lot of people call me a healer and I shut that down immediately. And there's nothing wrong, I have no problem with anybody else using that terminology. I just don't like it directed at me.

For me, I can't heal you. I can't heal anybody. They can only heal themselves. Your body is an incredible, intelligent mechanism. You're not thinking about breathing right now, it just happens. You're not thinking about the food you ate an hour ago. It's just digesting. You're not thinking about the bacterias and viruses that your white blood cells are attacking right now.

That just happens. Your body takes care of it. It's automated. So for me, I look at myself as a remover of interference. I'm removing interference so your body can go in and do what it does. But I've never thought of myself as a [00:33:00] healer. I don't think anybody can heal anybody else. I think it always has to come from within.

[00:33:03] Dr. Jess Reynolds: So I'm curious then the way you explained your, your process, how you go about treating it sounded relatively, I'm not going to say clinical, but systematic. That's the word I'm looking for systematic. What role does intuition play in your sessions?

[00:33:19] Andre: A lot. And actually, I find it changes from day to day and from session to session. So there's some treatments where, as strange as it sounds, I literally will meditate throughout the treatment and I'll have no idea what I'm actually doing. I'll go into the treatment and I will shut my brain down and I'll let my hands just do what they do, or my elbows or my knees or my feet because I treat with everything.

And I kind of just, I keep most of my attention on myself. It's a really strange thing. I literally focus on my breathing, meditative style, when I breathe in through my nose, I follow it down to the dantian, when I exhale, I focus on the tip of my nose. I have some awareness, of [00:34:00] course, on what I'm doing and where my hands are, but I'm trying to put about 80 percent of my focus on myself and my breathing and my relaxation.

And I find in those treatments, the results are incredible. People get up and they've been transformed into different people. And it even goes further than just the physical and what they felt. You know, I came in with back pain. They get up and they're not even thinking about back pain. They're like, they're like, what did you just do?

I feel, I don't know how to explain it. They can barely even get up words. It's just such deep, deep, deep relaxation. So I have treatments like that. Those have become less these days, if I'm being honest, but I still do it. I don't even know how, it's, it's such a fine line between, in my opinion, between thought and, and intuition.

The less you think is the more intuitive you are. The more intuition, the less thought that's involved. But I think there's a, a harmonious overlap if you can get in between them both. [00:35:00] And I say that's what I try to do. It doesn't always happen, but that's what I kind of try to do in my treatment. I try to think what's the problem and then as soon as I go in, after I've analyzed, at that point I try and shut my thoughts down and just do whatever I feel is right.

[00:35:11] Dr. Jess Reynolds: So many places, I got, got goosebumps at one point in time during that particular description you just gave. So I agree with the, the, the idea of just going with it. And the way that I often describe this, and I teach basically the exact same thing when I teach about acupressure, it's like, you want to, you want to give an amazing session.

You, you have to consider the fact that you're basically two nervous systems at that point in time interacting. And when there's physical contact in place, then it is genuinely two nervous systems, just kind of dancing. So the best way to give a treatment is to get out of the mind, to get into the body and pay attention to your body.

Because when two nervous systems are dancing like that, what you feel in your body is what they feel in their body. And that's not woo woo, that's mirror neurons. That's, that's genuine neurology. So I really would love to continue to dig into that. But. I think more importantly, [00:36:00] what came to me as you were just describing that is this, this yin yang principle, right?

You got the, the yang, the masculine, the I'm going to do the assessment. I'm going to do my thought. I'm going to think about it. I'm going to put my brain into this effort and it's going to be specific and technical and beautiful and effective. And if that's all a person did, great. Highly effective treatments come from highly technical treatments.

And then there's the, I'm just going to turn my brain off. I'm going to go with the flow. I'm going to get all feely and lovey dovey and it's going to be all sort of empathy. And we're just going to motion to two energy. Beautiful. Amazing. Those sessions, like you said, they come up. They don't say, Oh, my low back pain is gone.

It's emotional. Like I feel this emotion, right? So you get these two different ways of practicing. And what I'm hearing you say is like, now you're meeting in the middle. You're coming to this point where a session is both, both of these energies, both the yin and the yang and the, the highly technical and specific and logical, as well as the highly experiential.

And I guess we could [00:37:00] say emotional and empathetic.

[00:37:01] Andre: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, go back to Chinese philosophy, everything's about, you know, landing in the middle. You don't want to be too yang, too high. You don't want to be too low. You don't want to be too high. You don't want to be cold. We're all about finding balance. And, you know, if we talk about meditation You're trying to find that space in between the breath.

And you're like, when you're first learning, you're like, What? What do you mean? I breathe in, I breathe out. Yeah, that little space in between the breath. And you're like, I don't know what you're talking about. Until you do it, right? Again, it comes back to the doing. So, that's maybe why I find it hard to explain what I do.

Because, yeah, I think one thing about some, some of the great educators I've gone and I've learned from, some of them are incredible practitioners and not the greatest teachers. And that's not because they're not good teachers, it's because they don't, like, how do I explain something that can't be explained?

Right? So, I, I find that consistent with a lot of different [00:38:00] educators and maybe it's not fair for me to say they're not good teachers because I've learned so much from, from so many different educators. And it's just You have to be able to see in between, kind of in between the lines in order to really learn from them and absorb from them.

And I don't think that's how we're taught to learn. I don't think that's how a lot of people do learn. People are hyper focused on very specific things instead of kind of, again, taking that step back and taking in everything as a whole.

[00:38:25] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Mm hmm. Yeah, I find that, that these types of things that they can't be taught, they have to be like back to what we were talking about before, they have to be experienced. And as, as an instructor who teaches some courses that have to do with that, like acupressure being a great example, it's shockingly challenging to teach because I spend so much time being like, honestly, people, the acupoints don't matter.

Yes, they matter, but they don't really matter. The meridians. Who cares? You just how did, how did the ancient people figure this out? They did [00:39:00] not study a textbook. They put their hand on somebody and they just paid attention, right? But it's so hard in a technique focused world to be like, all right, we're going to spend the next 4 days quietly together, just putting our hands on each other with our eyes closed in a calm, meditative state and see, No, it's not going to work that way, so like you said, next to impossible to teach, but certainly worth the effort.

Now, I know this might seem like a bit of a 90 degree, but I'm curious about something if that's okay. Unless you have something you want to add to that.

[00:39:29] Andre: no, I just, I was just going to harp on the fact that Solaris educators were like, this is, this is very, the Marines are very, very important. And then in the next breath, you're like, the Marines aren't important. And I think we all, all, maybe not all, I know I do that too, but it's like, they're like, what do you mean?

It's like, I don't know, stick around me long enough and you'll understand.

[00:39:47] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah, yeah. They're important when they're important, and then they're not important when they're not important. What do you mean?

It's just

that simple.

[00:39:56] Andre: from

[00:39:57] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah. It's just like the wind. The wind [00:40:00] is important if it's pushing your sail in the wrong direction. But if it's pushing yourself in the right direction, then it's not so on and so forth.

Right? But the thing I'm really curious about, which is that, that 90 is 20 years as a manual therapist. You explained that around year seven, you know, the body was starting to do a bit of protesting, but since then you've had pretty, pretty lengthy career. Now we've talked about the modalities and the techniques, right?

We could certainly dig into them. But what I'm curious about is aside from Adopting a toolbox of techniques that are less demanding on specific joints of your body and sort of diversifying what specific modalities you practice. I'm curious, what do you do in your life in order to maintain your ability to continue to work and stay healthy?

I mean, you're a fit guy, right? Like, what do you do to, I guess, prevent injuries or prevent burnout? Because it can be super easy.

[00:40:55] Andre: Well, I, I don't stop. I don't stop anything. [00:41:00] I'm go, go, go, go, go. I think in a, in a, for the most part, in a healthy way. But I, I love, as an educator, I love creating content. I love thinking about how can I pass on some of my skills effectively. So I'll, I'll write out courses. I'll try and put into writing how I treat lower back pain or shoulder pain.

Exactly. And then it's like, Oh, this all looks great. This is the course. Okay. Let's go do the photo shoot. You know, call all the people, call the model, go out, do that. There's that one side of me as an educator. There's a side of me as a therapist who's like, Oh, this book about placebo effects is really fascinating.

I'm gonna read this book. And you go and you read and you're like, Oh, this is really cool stuff. This is an interesting point. I never thought of things that way. And there's that side of me. And there's a side of me who's like, I still love playing soccer. I still love playing soccer. I go out and I play soccer.

My last this summer season that pretty much just came to an end, I was playing for three different teams. I was playing volleyball twice a week. The girlfriend loves golfing, so now I golf a couple days a week as well. I, I don't stop. I [00:42:00] just, I like to be active. I like to do things. I love to travel too.

Thailand is a very good excuse to, to leave every winter and go and learn for a few months with some incredible practitioners some great schools out there, some masters. If I can find any masters that, you know, you've got to talk to enough people and they'll whisper, you know, go down that back alley on the third door to the right, knock there and you know, if you're lucky, he'll take you into the student.

But it's, it's just having things to look forward to. I enjoy a lot. I know what I mean. Everybody's got interests, right? I try and make those my priority and I try and keep busy doing the things I enjoy. If we're speaking specifically about my physical body, it's, I'm a massage, I'm a healthcare professional.

That's my lifestyle. I exercise, I eat well most of the times. Mental health, I'm a human, I stress out, but you know, I'll do tai chi, I'll do meditation, I'll go for a jog. Actually that's not a stress reliever, I hate running even though I'm a soccer player. But you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll invest my time in it.

Get out [00:43:00] of my I'll get out of my head if I'm stressed out and busy myself doing things that I enjoy. And, you know, and you do that, you realize that whatever you're stressing about, it's, it's just, it's not that big a deal. It's something that happened in your past or something that's in your future.

It's not now. Now things are great. So enjoy it.

[00:43:15] Dr. Jess Reynolds: I hear that and I'm listening. I'm like, okay, it sounds easy. Right? And. I'm the same. Like I'm, I'm a happy dude. You know, like I got the things I love to do. I love my work and I, you know, I, I've got a million pounds of energy, but something that always comes up whenever I hear a description like that, it's like, okay, that sounds, that sounds great.

But I know, I know there are a ton of practitioners out there who are like, Oh, hum now, Andre, like, seriously, I'm exhausted and burnt out. You're telling me all I got to do to have a long, sustainable career is I need to do all of these things, right? So, like, what is it then that, that do you think fundamentally gives you the capacity to do all of these things?

Is there something at the root of it all?

[00:43:58] Andre: Well, first of all, I [00:44:00] didn't think you were going over there with that. I was like, I thought you were going to say, dude, you didn't mention that you get massages. I do for the record, get massages for anybody out there who wants to know I get treatment. I got good fractures. I thought you were going there with that, but to be honest for me personally, I think if I had to kind of put it to one thing, it's diet.

It's really diet. You know, I've, again, when I, when I had that low back pain, those seven years, it didn't go away right at seven years after I learned Thai Massage. I still had it. It got better because I was treating differently, but, and you know, all these different therapies helped and I found that my diet was what made the biggest difference.

And I played around with it for years before I saw an Ayurvedic doctor, and when I started, that's what got me interested in Ayurveda. So, Chinese medicine is what I've always been interested in. And I find that with Chinese medicine, when I went to them, Generally speaking, they would give me the herbs, the acupuncture, some exercises, but they didn't stress diet as much.

And that's [00:45:00] not, that's a practitioner thing. That's not a Chinese medicine thing. So for whatever reason, the practitioners didn't emphasize that as much. They just gave me the herbs and the treatment. When I went to the Ayurvedic doctor, All she did was talk about food. She says, ah, you're Kitta, you've got too much heat in your system, so you're eating a lot of foods that are warming, everything you're doing is warming.

You go out and you exercise, and you go hardcore, 100%, all out, you're just generating heat. You have to find ways of releasing that, and the best way to keep it in check, she said, is your diet. So she told me what foods to eat, and it's incredible, since that day, I don't get pain in my body almost ever if I do it's because I know exactly why I'm having a little too much fun and not eating right and you know having one or two more drinks that I probably should and as a result you know my diet's acidic I end up with inflammation I have pain but as soon as I go back to eating well my I never have pain that will last more than [00:46:00] a day if I'm being really bad because as soon as I get it I start eating when I'm supposed to and it's gone.

[00:46:04] Dr. Jess Reynolds: I didn't, I didn't, I didn't see that coming. Just so those listening, it's not like that was a leading question. No idea nutrition was going to be it, but thank you for saying

[00:46:13] Andre: Wow.

[00:46:14] Dr. Jess Reynolds: That is like the thing that I always preach on. And, and it's interesting what you just described, right? Like your Physical body pain was resolved through nutrition and one might be thinking, how, how does that matter?

My, my belief and opinion on this is everybody has a weak link. They got a system that is most susceptible to inflammation and irritation for years. It sounds like it's your muscular, potentially skeletal system. So when this nutritional issues That's where it manifests for myself. It's skin. I get rashes and I get like itches, right?

For other people, it's neurological. They get twitches, they get chronic fatigue. I think everybody has a weak link somewhere in their body. And I honestly think the biggest thing that pulls at that weak link, well, maybe sleep is the biggest thing, but next to sleep it's [00:47:00] nutrition. So I'm, I'm so grateful you brought that up because it's like, yes, preach it.

Yes. We should all be focusing on nutrition. So thanks for that.

[00:47:07] Andre: No, how you put it, I agree with 100%. 100%. Everyone has that weakness, and then that's where you're going to feel your pain chronically if you're not eating right.

[00:47:16] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Yeah. And then of course there's all the, the things we could do as far as manual practitioners to help support that, but I find it so unfortunate that when it comes to us as say massage therapists, the ability to actually provide comprehensive treatments is so limited by the associations, which is bizarre.

It's absolutely bizarre because taking a nutrition course is ridiculously easy to learn how to follow. So it is. Way easier than becoming a massage therapist in Canada, right? You know, we need 2200 hours, 3000 hours to actually understand the basics of nutrition. Not to become a, a dietitian, but a nutritionist.

It's [00:48:00] like, it's eight months, relatively easy schooling. And yet, nope. No, you can only work on the body and as massage therapists, we need to tell you that if somebody has a problem with their body, the only thing wrong with their body is their body. It has nothing to do with anything, which is such a shame.

It's such a shame.

[00:48:17] Andre: Yeah, way to empower us. I actually studied nutrition as part of my massage therapy program, but I cannot give any nutritional advice whatsoever. I had a cheeseburger a day. I can't say, maybe you shouldn't do that. I'm not a nutritionist, can't say that. Okay, I'll just keep my mouth shut refer them out, which And you know, I, the good thing is I, I, I pretty much refer every client that comes in here and lies on my table to, to an Irish doctor or a Chinese medicine doctor or a nutritionist or a naturopath.

Like I, I try and emphasize, this is what I can help you with. I can't really, I'm not, I'm not legally allowed to give you nutritional advice, but go get it. I'm one piece of a puzzle here and an important piece, [00:49:00] but I'll tell people based on how they present for a lot of people at home. That, that other piece for you is actually far more important than me.

Make that your priority, not to see me.

[00:49:10] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Right. I think that's part of the gig too, right? Is understanding that massage therapy and whatever modality, I don't care if it's massage therapy or yoga therapy or acupuncture, physio, I don't care the modality. I think a very important part of it is understanding that ultimately it's collaborative.

The more different practitioners that get their hands in there, oftentimes the better, particularly when we're dealing with complex treatments, right, which tends to happen. Now, I'm curious with with, with what's, what's next, right? So let's talk a little bit about the next chapter as you're moving forward.

I know you do a lot of continuing education, a lot of practice, but what, what do you got on the horizon? What do you imagine is your next steps?

[00:49:49] Andre: well, the thing that's had my interest a lot more recently, and I think I'm probably at the end of this phase as opposed to the beginning of it, but just learning about different frequencies and the effects they have on the body and the frequencies our [00:50:00] chakras, the energy centers kind of vibrate at I've done a little, quite a bit of research recently into that, I find it super fascinating, and I mean, everything in our physical universe is energy, but that's another conversation as a result of being an educator at the massage therapy conference, the Canadian massage conference, I've met all these incredible educators.

So, this Saturday, I'm taking a course with one of them. And there's a couple more that I want to go and learn from as well. It's, it's such a beautiful thing to go to those conferences and meet all these incredible educators because they're all alike. For me, I meet them and I'm like, I want to learn from you.

And they come to me and say, I want to take your course. And I'm like, what? Me, why, why me? You're this incredible educator. Why do you want to learn from me? And it's like, Oh, right. It's the same thing. You have a skill for me. I'm looking at them. I'm like, you have this incredible skill and expertise that I don't have.

There's part of my practice that's lacking. I want to fill that gap. I want to learn [00:51:00] from you. And you know, you, all the other educators look around and that's, I think that's how they became educators because they have this thirst and hunger for knowledge and learning and being able to provide better treatment for their clients.

So for me, it's hard to say what exactly is next because I feel like I get pulled in so many different directions all the time. So whatever pops up next that interests me, I'm doing, I'm learning a little bit of pelvic health stuff. That's the Saturday course. It's external and internal, of course. I'm at some point within the next year, I'd say I'm going to do taping.

I actually don't do taping. But I want to do taping and some of the flossing, not nerve flossing, but there's a different type of flossing I'm learning where they wrap a band around you really tight. Has to do with proprioception, how the brain interprets pain and sensation and whatnot. I don't know much of anything about that, so I really want to learn about that.

And I guess eventually something will pull me in the direction, but for the most part, the one consistent in my career. I want to learn more Thai [00:52:00] massage from different practitioners. I want to learn more Chinese song from different practitioners. So I will consistently fly back and forth from Thailand to keep learning.

[00:52:07] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Oh, not such a bad life. I got to spend a few months a year in Thailand, not so bad.

[00:52:14] Andre: Yeah. It's a, it's a nice What

[00:52:18] Dr. Jess Reynolds: So the question, the question that I ask virtually everybody at the end of every episode, here it is. In your opinion, your experience as a practitioner and somebody who receives treatments, what do you think makes a practitioner successful?

[00:52:32] Andre: makes a practitioner successful? Continuing to learn and honoring your strengths. If you continuously want to better yourself, you will get better. If you focus on your strengths, your, your strengths are going to, they're going to shape what you do. You may not choose to go in a specific direction per se.

I mean, you may have the idea. I want to do this and I want to run full, you know, full steam in this direction. If you do that, [00:53:00] you're naturally going to become an expert at whatever it is you're studying. If you don't seek that out, And you just gravitate towards your strengths and things that you're really good at, you're going to get better and better at them.

And I think as long as you honor what your strengths are and you continue to have that hunger and thirst for learning, you're going to be successful. Never give up. I know I'm going to be successful, not because of any arrogance or anything. It's because I know that I'm going to fail again and again and again, and I'm okay with that because I'm going to learn from it.

And I'm going to keep going down the same path until I arrive where I want to be. I don't let obstacles slow me down, and I just keep going. If you have that attitude, you're definitely going to be successful.

[00:53:39] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Follow up question, how does one identify their strengths?

[00:53:44] Andre: Listen. Listen to the people around you. Listen to your clients. Listen to your friends. Listen to your family. Listen to what keeps popping up again and again. It'll become pretty evident, I think.

[00:53:57] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Awesome. [00:54:00] Okay. Well, anything else to add before we tie a lovely bow on this conversation?

[00:54:04] Andre: Well, I've got a bunch of courses coming out or coming up, I should say, so anyone who's interested in learning, jump on my website, andreyrmt. com. Any questions, any concerns? Like, I'm, I'm very open. I make myself accessible to people. I'm pretty busy these days, but I still always get back to people.

So anybody who wants to get to know anything about me or kind of what I do or courses I teach, or even just pick my brain about Thailand and the best schools to go to, or, you know, how, where to learn Chinese song, all that kind of stuff. Just stop on my site and shoot me a message. I'm, I'm always happy to engage with people.

[00:54:40] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Nice. And I'll make sure all that stuff's in the show notes, so anybody who's listening, take a look in the show notes and we'll have links to all of your stuff down there. Well, thank you. Kindly. That was an awesome conversation. I really enjoyed it and I'm grateful for the time we had together.

[00:54:55] Andre: Thanks. I appreciate you having me on the show. I'm happy to do it anytime. That's a lot of fun.[00:55:00]

[00:55:00] Dr. Jess Reynolds: Great. Let's do it again then.

[00:55:02] Andre: Sounds good.

[00:55:03] Dr. Jess Reynolds: As always, thank you so much for spending your time with us today. I know time is precious, and I am truly grateful you chose to share yours with us. Before you go, here are three key insights from our conversation that you can take with you. Number one, healing starts from within. As Andre shared, the body has its own intelligence, and as a practitioner, we're here to support that natural process by removing interference.

The second is, look at the whole picture. True wellness means stepping back and seeing the body, mind, and the soul as an interconnected system. Pain isn't always where the issue starts. And lastly, embrace balance in all things, whether it's balancing technical skill with intuition or creating harmony in your own life.

Cultivating balance brings lasting benefits to both you and your clients. . A special thank you to Andre for sharing his wisdom with us today. If you found this conversation resonated with you, please be sure to subscribe.

It helps out [00:56:00] a ton and that way you'll never miss an opportunity to grow, learn, and build a more purpose driven practice. You can find all of Andre's information in the show notes below.

. So until next time, be well, my friend.