[00:00:00] Hazel: Hi there. I'm Hazel Showell and I'm here to guide you through the toughest transitions in life, business, and even love. I'm a business psychologist who coaches [00:00:15] execs and founders to navigate the messy stuff of life. From selling a business, the loss of something or someone important, to repairing relationships and restoring confidence.

[00:00:27] Hazel: Welcome to Endings. [00:00:30] Now, at the end of each series, I turn the tables on myself. And that's because if my guests are prepared to share some of the hardest moments of their life, to be vulnerable and brave, then I earn a [00:00:45] part of that trust. In this episode, I'm sharing my own story of endings that I've had to navigate. In particular, that of child loss and ultimately choosing not to have children. This is a [00:01:00] story of acceptance. It's also a story of how there can be a beautiful serenity in making peace with hard decisions. I hope you can apply some of the learnings from these experiences to an ending [00:01:15] you might be facing.

[00:01:16] Hazel: And If you think that the subject matter might be upsetting for you, then please do check the show notes for resources that might help. This is not an easy conversation, but like much that [00:01:30] matters in life, it is worth having. There's also, as said, hope and acceptance. I asked a good friend of mine, Charlotte Ashton, to join me.

[00:01:43] Hazel: Charlotte is one of the most positive [00:01:45] people I know, but like me, She knows what it means to find hope in hopeless places. Later on, Charlotte and I work through an exercise that's all about accepting the cost of passing on life [00:02:00] and that it can be high in many families. When you understand your own ancestor's story, you can choose how to live your own life story.

[00:02:10] Hazel: As Charlotte has a daughter, I trusted she would be able to talk to me [00:02:15] about my experience as a mother, even though the outcome was very different for us both.

Sadly, the first time I had a, a pregnancy, uh, was with my first husband, who, and we had a, [00:02:30] you know, a very difficult end to that wedding, to that, to all that marriage, rather.

[00:02:34] Hazel: The only reason I found out about the pregnancy is when I was losing it. And that's when the hospital said, oh, by the way, you're miscarrying. Um, and Oh my goodness. As a [00:02:45] consequence of losing that baby, I thought I had to pretend it hadn't existed. And then yet I'd find myself, you know, as the years went by, seeing people who were about the same age as the baby would be. So I'm, you know, 57 now and that was when I was [00:03:00] 24 it happened. And yet, if I meet someone who's in their early 30s, I think, would, would my child have been like you? You don't grieve the bunch of cells of a 13 week pregnancy, you grieve the future of the [00:03:15] child you don't have. Because the second pregnancy I had only a couple of years later was ectopic, so there was no choice.

[00:03:21] Hazel: That had to, unfortunately, be removed surgically. So, I think we can use those cold terms, but that's not how it felt at [00:03:30] the time, because I've lost Another one. And, and so I was kind of 32, something like that. 33. Yeah. When I got divorced, obviously very quickly from that went into having a brain tumour.

[00:03:44] Hazel: Uh, [00:03:45] so I met Ian when I was probably about 18 months, two years post recovery. So by then I would have been kind of 35. I suppose the interesting bit when it came to meeting Ian was quite the moment when I met [00:04:00] someone who said, actually I'd want to have children with you. Um, and then, yeah, it starts to make me think, well, I would have children with you.

[00:04:07] Hazel: And I was starting to imagine what that might be like. I mean, I'd got a business, so it was a bit, this'll be interesting, this'll be [00:04:15] fun. And We'll find a way to make it work. You know, come from a long line of arsey women. It's fine. I'll find a way. Just need to get my head around it. But it was something I needed to get my head around, which is why I was like, well, let's go and get advice and find out [00:04:30] with my history and my health. Is that going to be possible? Went and saw the gynecologist and he was said, if I have to make you rattle with pills, I will get. You threw a pregnancy and the baby's still in you for nine months. We'll [00:04:45] do this. It's okay. Because he was very pro women trying to have children because I had endometriosis.

[00:04:50] Hazel: Said this will be a brilliant solution for that, you know, get pregnant. And so we were really excited and we left it a bit and we decided that [00:05:00] I just needed that second opinion from a neurologist who was absolutely emphatic and just said, Are you insane? Said no, no. Uh, he said, if you get pregnant, the, um, scar tissue in your brain will [00:05:15] stretch, and you're either going to be dead or vegetative state.

[00:05:18] Hazel: He said, so if you want him to raise your child, go ahead. quite a lot of sarcasm. So it was made very clear from a medical point of view that it just wasn't going to be possible. [00:05:30] We were looking at each other, and I thought, do I have to give him the option to say, if you really want children, then you can't marry me.

[00:05:37] Hazel: And we were, by then, two weeks from the wedding. He just said, I want you more than I want children. I'm okay. [00:05:45]

[00:05:45] Charlotte: Just talk a bit more about, you know, you referenced your brain tumour then, um, you'd obviously had the experience with previous pregnancies, this massive thing that had happened to you in the brain tumour and the recovery.

[00:05:57] Charlotte: Um, what were you being told at that point [00:06:00] that, you know, was Specifically in relation to fertility. Was that something that had been discussed because it's obviously a huge thing that affected your entire life and probably wasn't a feature at that point. It was just recovering it better wasn't it?

[00:06:13] Hazel: It wasn't, you know, and it's really [00:06:15] interesting that, you know, especially as a woman of childbearing age, there was no conversation about.

[00:06:21] Hazel: What the drugs might do, what the treatment would do, it was simply if you want to live, this is what we're doing. I mean, at one point when I got the very bad post op [00:06:30] infection, they really were hitting me with everything. And they said, we know this will do harm, but we think the alternative is you won't make it.

[00:06:39] Hazel: So we're just going to do it. And yes, it'll damage heart, kidney. all sorts [00:06:45] and it's worth it. So you do it. You don't think about it. And I don't think no one was talking about fertility, but because I got endometriosis, I was, I was going to see a gynaecologist, but his, he was almost the opposite. [00:07:00] Like not thinking about the fact that I had a brain tumour, just thinking about me as a, a woman of an age that could bear children, their children think he'd got eight loved kids.

[00:07:07] Hazel: He was completely convinced that I should be, you Definitely going for the having children, but we did get to a point where I went to see, [00:07:15] um, Someone about the endometriosis was awful. See the ultimate alternative for endo is Hysterectomy. Yeah, so yeah by early 40s. I decided I'd had enough and went for the hysterectomy [00:07:30] And I think what I don't think I'd accounted for and no one talked me through Was that was the bit I actually experienced as the sharpest ending because it felt like the end of hope

[00:07:40] Charlotte: But how did you come to make the decision?

[00:07:44] Charlotte: What was your [00:07:45] thought process?

[00:07:45] Hazel: My thought process was, I was blacking out a lot and it's why I don't drive. And the sense at the time, we think there might be a link with hormones. So also the benefit of the womb is, well, we'll [00:08:00] stop the hormones. You might not back out as much. And it's also, it's quite debilitating.

[00:08:06] Hazel: I've had a couple in public and it's embarrassing. And I wasn't used to how you talk to people about disability at the time, [00:08:15] especially something like that, like, Oh, by the way, I can wind down like a Crap computer. And I'll, although I'll reboot and I can always hear people, it makes you feel very exposed.

[00:08:23] Hazel: I paralyzed, I can't move. Yeah. So I thought if I could stop that, that would be one of the [00:08:30] legacies of the brain surgery I would love to get rid of. Yeah. And I thought, so am I prepared to give up, you know, my capacity that I don't think I've actually got, but my secret hope to have children in order. [00:08:45] to get rid of that part of my brain injury and I did that deal.

[00:08:50] Hazel: Unfortunately, a bit of a deal with the devil because didn't work, still black out. It was nothing to do with hormones and I hadn't really been told at the time until it was too late. I [00:09:00] saw somebody after who said, right, you, you've instantly by the hormone changes affected your cardiovascular system. I think, well, No, that risk was never explained.

[00:09:10] Hazel: The sheer enormity of what you're doing to [00:09:15] handbrake turn into menopause at 42 was not really explained. I kind of, we sort of, they said, oh, well, of course, at that point, you know, normal periods will stop. But I don't think the, the, not at any, any consideration for the emotional side of [00:09:30] that is the end of hope.

[00:09:31] Hazel: That is the absolute end. And then I know having talked to. Women who've had hysterectomies, who have had children, who've still said, it's amazing how your brain retains that capacity that there could be another. Maybe. Maybe. It'll still happen. Just maybe. Yeah. And then [00:09:45] suddenly there's no maybe. It's done.

[00:09:47] Hazel: It's over. That was a really hard grieving process and it hadn't hit me at all. But as a consequence of understanding the emotional impact, that's when I started to get more [00:10:00] interested in things like family systems. I was always, already trained as a systemic coach. And, you know, one of the activities I'd love for us to do together is something I learned then with John Whittington.

[00:10:12] Hazel: But the, going into, uh, this family systems work [00:10:15] and understanding how you can honour your experience as a woman became more important than I realised. So I'd done my usual, bury it under a rug, deal with a lumpy rug later, you know, sort it out. Sort out [00:10:30] everyone else, not sort my own head out. And then you think, I actually can't do this, I need to explore it. But one of the things that is, I loved about systemic working is the idea of radical inclusion, that you can include [00:10:45] everything. in your life. And that includes the babies that are lost, the babies for some people that are given up or that can't live. And that's whether they've been born or not.

[00:10:55] Hazel: And it doesn't matter how many weeks we're not medicalizing emotion. [00:11:00] It's saying, if you feel it, you feel it. Yeah. If you felt like a mother so that there can be motherless children and childless mothers, it's that, that's the complexity of life. And I thought that was such a beautiful concept of the honors.[00:11:15]

[00:11:15] Hazel: What happened rather than worrying too much about people what how many weeks and was that it's almost irrelevant

[00:11:22] Charlotte: It is irrelevant because it's it's a life. It's a life in your mind

[00:11:23] Hazel: It was a life and that baby lived but the one thing that I thought was particularly powerful and it was all about [00:11:30] ritual And it was around finding something to represent The two babies of like even the one that couldn't have been born wasn't viable.

[00:11:37] Hazel: It's like still lived for a while. So they said you find something that honors it and it allows you to, for it to not be a [00:11:45] shameful hidden secret. You don't need to pretend it didn't happen. You can honor it. And so I picked these two tiny little stones. It was like these two tiny little things that had become almost like a hard, um, It's a hard thing to talk about at the time.

[00:11:57] Hazel: So I picked these little stones. But they [00:12:00] are very polished and they're now soft in my hands. And it's that feeling of, actually, they are hard things to talk about. But I have actually brought them. I've brought them with me, my little things. This normally resides in my, um, in my house. It's [00:12:15] a little glass heart, because I thought, yeah, hearts can be fragile.

[00:12:17] Hazel: And easily broken. And inside it, one is fossilised, because it's like, somehow it's set up

[00:12:26] Charlotte: And so how did you, how did you choose these?

[00:12:28] Hazel: Um, one, [00:12:30] because I thought this one is something very old. Again. existed, this little thing. And I just imagined this tightly curled little ball and I thought, yeah, this feels right.

[00:12:41] Hazel: And then the other one just, again, it fits my hand. It's like, [00:12:45] it feels like it's part of me and it's okay that it's now no longer part of me. But And my husband, Ian, knows all about this, and come Christmas it even gets hung on the tree, which could sound a bit morbid and weird, but actually it [00:13:00] feels really respectful, because I don't need to pretend this part of me, of the hidden heart, is that hidden.

[00:13:07] Hazel: It can be in my home where it's fine. I don't normally bring it to work. But I thought, because of what we were talking about, [00:13:15] Yeah. I wanted to say that that ability to have something to represent is also a really human quality. It says so that we can say that represents this.

[00:13:23] Charlotte: Yeah. And I think having, um, having the ability to, um, to make something [00:13:30] visible so that it feels like it'd be, it can be talked about and it can be, um, as you say, kind of honored and respected.

[00:13:37] Charlotte: But actually what, what struck me then about how you described the, okay, so, you know, fits in my hand as well. [00:13:45] You sort of gradually let it go and then, and then it's in the glass heart and it's almost talking about as a mother myself, sort of the separation that you have to go through when you have a child.

[00:13:54] Charlotte: So you have the baby, the baby's born and they talk about, certainly in the first three months, [00:14:00] the baby feels they're still inside your body and that feels really real when you first have the baby and then there's a, you know, a golden thread between you and the baby and over time you have to get comfortable as a mother with your child moving away until at some point [00:14:15] they leave the home and then you see them less and less.

[00:14:17] Charlotte: It's obviously very different situation, but the way you describe that is very much in the way that a mother will describe their child, you know, and the process they have to go through to let go, to let go, to separate and, and [00:14:30] let that, that golden thread, Get further and further away from them, but still be attached to them.

[00:14:35] Hazel: That's a beautiful metaphor. And it is the hard bit, isn't it? Watching that, that stretch out. And I think what was interesting was when it was all hidden and a [00:14:45] bit shameful, I, I feel like they were probably too in me. They hadn't separated. It was too, it was something I carried and continued to carry. But I think the process of when I was learning about family systems with Lynn Stoney is [00:15:00] that. To be able to create that separation, to separate what's been wrongly joined, to say actually, they're not part of it, it's okay. But also, they don't need to be a hidden shame. Because in our family, shame unfortunately features. And it's like, you've got to pretend that thing didn't happen [00:15:15] rather than, well, it did.

[00:15:16] Hazel: And actually if I talk about it, it's not shame anymore. It really isn't. It's just simply, this is something I experienced, it's part of being a woman, and I know for some people they don't experience that, and that's still, they're still a woman. And some people have [00:15:30] many, many children. I think we've both come from very different backgrounds.

[00:15:32] Hazel: Families where Very large families. Yeah, there's a lot of So it's that sense of, almost societal expectation of you having a child and if And even the weird moments when, um, I sat, uh, [00:15:45] having brunch one morning with a friend of mine and, and her friend. And they were passing pictures of their children. And when they got to me, they skipped me.

[00:15:54] Hazel: It's like like what like I wouldn't want to see pictures of people's children because I don't have children. [00:16:00] I still feel like a childless mother. And yet there was this almost assumption. Oh, you won't want to see it. You won't want to hear about my child story. If it matters to you, of course I want to hear it.

[00:16:10] Charlotte: Yeah,

[00:16:11] Hazel: So it's inviting people to share, how [00:16:15] do I want to engage with children? Because the one thing that Ian and I discovered is, we are okay most of the time. Occasionally things that can trigger us, and it's upsetting. And it's usually kids of a certain age, and it's toddlers, [00:16:30] when they're just discovering their personalities.

[00:16:32] Hazel: And of course, cute as buttons, and usually if we get a toddler in the family, the pair of us Excuse ourselves in the room quite quickly and get out. The other thing is, tiny socks and shoes, particularly little boots. [00:16:45] We found that, that's the bit where I suppose we have made, we have also made a choice, because yes, I chose when I had a hysterectomy.

[00:16:52] Hazel: We accepted that. There's no choice for us. We now have a child free life, but that's how we frame it. And so we do all the [00:17:00] things you cannot do with kids. It's really hard to do with kids because we can just, at a moment's notice, go, we'll go away for the weekend. Yeah, the hardest thing we have to find is a cat sitter.

[00:17:09] Hazel: The cats can cope for a night. You know, if you put dry food down, you can't do that with a child. Again, you'll cope. There's some [00:17:15] biscuits in the jar.

[00:17:16] Charlotte: So there's, there's, there's, there's four houses on the, uh, on the drive that we live on. And the first three have young children. At the fourth. were childless, they've just, they've just recently had a baby and we would text each other as they were all walking down the [00:17:30] drive at 7, 7.30 saying look at them walking out the house at 7 o'clock at night. Free as a bird. Free as a bird, going for a drink.

[00:17:35] Hazel: Well, that's what we do. When you go, oh, should we pop out? We'll go out tonight. We'll go for a drink. Altrincham is a great place to be so it's a really, but it's [00:17:45] fantastic. We've loved our child free life.

[00:17:47] Hazel: We've made it work for us. by celebrating what you can do without children whilst being totally okay. Yes, sometimes we'll really miss it. That we've missed out on lots of things. So I think it's the being [00:18:00] okay. Life's really complicated. But it isn't this natural assumption that Everyone's going to become a parent.

[00:18:05] Hazel: Everyone's going to find parenting a doddle and want to do it again. And the way things are set up, all these assumptions get baked in rather than, as you [00:18:15] mentioned, one in five couples think now struggle to conceive.

Charlotte: Yeah, it's a really, really high proportion.

Hazel: if you add that to the people who are making active choices about the environment and the world and worried about, you know, their children and their children.

[00:18:29] Hazel: Yeah, I get it. I [00:18:30] get why there's more and more people questioning or even I think the difficulty is sometimes women can be led into this slightly false sense of security of, well, I can have my career, I can get to the peak of [00:18:45] my, and then I'll stop for a couple of years. I'm like, Oh, Oh, then I'll lose track of what do I do?

[00:18:51] Hazel: So, you know, this idea of you can build your career and then have a child because you build your career. And if you go into your early forties, for example, and your fertility is [00:19:00] dropped off a cliff and suddenly you find you can't conceive, it's not easy. And then you have to decide, do I go down the IVF route, which again is fraught with emotion and difficulty and physical challenges at the time when you're [00:19:15] probably at your peak of your career. I think it's such a challenge, particularly for women and for men. And that's the other side, I suppose, I wanted to talk about was that, um, this is also about men too, you know, it's, it's not just a women's issue. [00:19:30]

[00:19:30] Charlotte: I really wanted to ask that question about Ian actually, because you, you know, you, you describe it as a, as a joint, A joint decision, a collective decision, and it sounds like you've got a fantastic relationship where you're, you're an absolute team.

[00:19:43] Charlotte: But as you were going through, [00:19:45] you had your hysterectomy and all of that. What was Ian's experience of that and how did you see him kind of, you know, how explicit was he about how he processed it and how it affected him? Obviously, you've talked about it both affecting when you go into, into places where there's [00:20:00] toddlers. But you know, what, what was, I don't think men get anywhere near enough credit for the process they have to go through around anything to do with, with loss.

[00:20:09] Hazel: No, not at all. I mean, in my case, it was, it was like different in most situations. [00:20:15] Well, in every situation you create a child together and you lose a child together.

[00:20:21] Hazel: And that idea of it being a woman's issue, and that's why, you know, a woman can, if it's lost, shame, hide it away, don't talk about it. And yet, I think there's an [00:20:30] enormous grief that's unspoken for men. Almost like they have no right to talk about it. It's not their loss. And yet, you think how men often talk about pregnancies, of like, we're pregnant.

[00:20:42] Hazel: Which I always think is quite funny. You think, we're not. [00:20:45] She's carrying the baby. And yet you are part of this journey. When I was experiencing this like real shock, loss of hope and, and sort of walking around a bit of a daze. We didn't talk about how he felt about it for quite a long time. And it was only [00:21:00] when I think we were, I'm sure I think we were at a wedding and it was, Uh, little boys, uh, come in to talk to him and want to, cause he's fascinated by all sorts, and they want to talk about dinosaurs and rocks and, and he's really good at, uh, kind of geology and geography.

[00:21:14] Hazel: So he [00:21:15] was sharing all this knowledge, and I watched his eyes fill up, and it's like, oh no. It, it, it isn't over for him, you know, and he will continue to have to deal with this and chooses to, but it is almost like a [00:21:30] continuous choice. So it's like, I always made a silent promise to myself. I was going to make sure he had a lovely life because of the choice and what it cost him.

[00:21:38] Hazel: And there's sometimes where I think, yeah, I need to just stop with the guilt. Let it go. Let us [00:21:45] both be okay. We both made a choice and we can both find a way To live with it. And yes, sometimes our kryptonite turns up and we're okay. We've got to believe we're strong enough to withstand the occasional tears. And we cover for each other. [00:22:00] So if I see him get upset, it's like, Oh, and over here. And because I know we've got friends with, with boys who are so adorable. And you just know they're at an age where we're going to find this difficult. That sounds horrible. If it's like we can't visit for a little bit.

[00:22:14] Hazel: Because [00:22:15] it's just too hard on the heart. Yeah, absolutely. And then there's other times where we think, well you did cheerfully, baby, it's not for anybody. It was lovely. Um, now we've got our different families, a different structure, but I think this importance of the man's [00:22:30] role and the man's loss or the man's gain and fear and all the other different hopes.

[00:22:34] Hazel: Because as you say, I know from dealing with, when you see somebody you love ill, it's terrifying. So imagine them going through something that is genuinely. [00:22:45] Dangerous. Yes. For a woman. Yeah.

[00:22:46] Hazel: I think there's films and TV make it look like full makeup, couple of pushes and you're done. And then when a guy has to watch the woman he loves most in the world go through a couple of days of screaming.

[00:22:57] Hazel: Yeah. And suddenly they're traumatized. Like, I had [00:23:00] no idea that's what was involved. I had no idea that that's what it could be, that it could also change the way he sees her. And that, that's really difficult in a relationship to talk about, actually that trauma stays with him too. Absolutely. So, [00:23:15] finding ways to be able to talk about it is, is really important.

[00:23:18] Hazel: Find a way to, to share all of it. You know, it's, it's a part of being a human. Well, I think that, that's probably the way I see it now. That if we can be okay, that losing a baby can [00:23:30] mean you grieve the whole life. It's like you grieve the whole life. Sunset, not the dawn, it's like the whole thing, and it doesn't stop.

[00:23:38] Hazel: So as I said, all the way through I'd be looking at people going, You would be the same age, and that's, it's hard on the heart [00:23:45] sometimes. And yet, it's become lighter, so the more work I've done it, you get to the point where I can hold it quite lightly now, which is, Oh, wouldn't it be lovely if it was someone like that?

[00:23:57] Hazel: That would have been nice But it's more [00:24:00] wistful, not dagger in the heart stuff.

[00:24:02] Charlotte: Yes. Yeah. And, and it sounds like the more you talk about it, the easier it gets to talk about. And that's, I mean, you know, if you could share kind of learnings from your own perspective with other [00:24:15] people that might be earlier. in their kind of the stage of the process. What would those be? And also, you know, maybe key things for them to consider at different points that might help, you know, help to process things slightly easier.

[00:24:27] Hazel: Well, I think the first stage is always [00:24:30] do you really want children? Because I think this real assumptions and pressure that that is what you want and you're just figuring out how rather than. Maybe I'm okay. Maybe I don't want them. And then it's simply, right, let's build a child free [00:24:45] life. Well, that's the easiest first step. Yeah, you know, but if you do want children, again, my advice would always be to hold it as a possibility. I think when people start to expect children, that's when it's a lifetime of really [00:25:00] poisonous, bitter disappointment.

[00:25:01] Hazel: You know, that's continuing to grieve. Whereas when you hold it as a possibility, until the day it's not a possibility, it remains possible. So you keep, stay hopeful. I think hope is, it's like both the most amazing thing that will keep [00:25:15] people going through all sorts of difficulties of conception, through pregnancy, through birth, and through whatever comes after.

[00:25:21] Hazel: You know, the difficulties of raising a child is it's kept alive by, yeah, I had the hope for this little thing and I hope I will hold my baby in my arms [00:25:30] and I hope I will raise a good human being and I have hope for that. And if it's not possible, well then. What I've let go of is simply a possibility.

[00:25:39] Hazel: It was never that absolute expectation of I'm definitely going to do this because I see it [00:25:45] particularly in IVF journeys. Very, very difficult or adoption journeys where, you know, because family's come in all shapes and sizes, as we said now, and it's still holding that as we have the possibility of building our family.

[00:25:59] Hazel: [00:26:00] And can we also hold in our heart the possibility that we won't, because I think actually that ability to both hope and not hope, it's a both and situation won't rip your heart apart

[00:26:11] Charlotte:. It's almost making yourself, I know [00:26:15] this is not, I know the parallels are very, very different. Similar expectations on women, you know, having relationships, getting married, all of that is being happy and comfortable and having a great [00:26:30] life as a single person.

[00:26:32] Charlotte:And. If then the right person, the right situation to open to it, then fantastic. But if it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world because your life's fantastic anyway. Exactly. So it's kind of [00:26:45] what sounds like what you're saying is kind of make, make a really great life.

[00:26:51] Hazel: Oh yeah. And then focus on the right stuff.And then it's like, I can have greedy wishes. That's fine. But you know, if you have, this is my life and I love it and it has meaning and purpose. And I [00:27:00] know that there's been. I lost a bit of hope and you start to feel a bit pointless as a woman. And then you shake that off and go, actually, of course there's a point to me.

[00:27:11] Hazel: Um, I got a really strict talking to my one of my friends. Think of all [00:27:15] of the people. You support and have helped over the years and almost that's your act of creation in the world.. It's the energy, the, you know, what you can change. You know, my business, which I often talk about as the baby, was my actual act of creation.

[00:27:29] Hazel: Something I [00:27:30] built from scratch and it is, my baby's 25 years old this year, which is rather cool. Um, frankly should have left home and gone to university, but hey ho, still at home. Yeah, I think I'm going to have one of those 30 year olds that's still at home, but [00:27:45] it's like, whatever. It's like, I'm okay with that.

[00:27:48] Hazel: And I think, yeah, it's finding what your act of creation could be in the world and what is possible. You know, and I know you've building businesses because that that's also actually quite, um, I'm interested that [00:28:00] people often use quite maternal language, male or female, to describe businesses. Definitely.

[00:28:05] Hazel: I think there's so many different kinds of. Families and births and yeah, it's been okay. Life looks a bit different [00:28:15] sometimes. Because I love living it.

[00:28:23] Hazel: One of the reasons I love my job is the work I do with families. And [00:28:30] here's an example of an exercise that is used in many different ways to understand the cost of passing on life. How I used it was to make peace with all my experiences and decisions and the [00:28:45] consequences. But this is an exercise I learned as part of my family systems training with a wonderful woman called Lynn Stoney and I've also covered it with John Whittington.

[00:28:56] Hazel: So this is used in systems work in many, [00:29:00] many different ways. Now, in a moment, you'll hear Charlotte and I looking back over our maternal family line to discover the real cost of passing on life for the women in our line. Charlotte and I have [00:29:15] got up, we're on our feet now, and we are looking at a Pretty bright and it doesn't have to be pink, but ours is a long pink line representing multi generations from. Both where we are today to generations into the future [00:29:30] and stretching back into the distant past. And I've placed some spots on the floor, either side of the line that just represent both Charlotte and I, our mums, their mums and their mums.

[00:29:42] Hazel: So it goes back to great grandma that [00:29:45] allows us to explore the line of women in our family and understand for them the cost of passing on life. So we're going to start with our great grandma. So I'm going to share stories. And I think what we will often find is there's many [00:30:00] similarities and patterns emerge, and then we're going to step forward.

[00:30:03] Hazel: to the next generation, to our grandmas. And then we're going to step forward and we're going to explore how life was for our mums. And to see what that tells us about [00:30:15] ourselves today, so that we can both lean into the strengths, tap into the resources that our line gives us, but also to recognize the difficulties and lessons that we're going to really learn This generation and as women, it's particularly important to [00:30:30] understand that the role and to be okay with what comes after or not.

[00:30:35] Hazel: If you don't have children, there is a lovely concept in systems work that says emotions flow through families until someone's prepared to feel it. So today we're [00:30:45] going to feel it. And the reason I wanted to do it is because sometimes we think of our Our mothers, our grandmothers, our great grandmothers, they become names in a story, but we don't remember [00:31:00] the real human beings.

[00:31:02] Hazel: And particularly for women in our lives, that cost of passing on life, of what did it take to become a mother? They must have become a mother for you to exist. So, the fact that they did that, at [00:31:15] what cost? And to understand what it would have meant to them, what their lives would have been like, to tell their story.

[00:31:22] Hazel: And it's a very physical exercise. And the reason we do that is because when we're telling stories, sometimes we get a bit in our head [00:31:30] and we forget to connect with the real emotion. And so, we walk through the stories of the women in our family. discussing patterns and traits that had flowed through those and the behaviours that had been passed on that we recognised in [00:31:45] ourself.

[00:31:45] Hazel: And I'm going to bring you to the point at which Charlotte and I We stand in the places that mark ourselves, our time and our point in the story. And this is the point where we can understand the [00:32:00] traits and the experiences and the skills we want to take from our maternal line. And the things that we need to leave behind.

[00:32:08] Hazel: And Charlotte and I did just that. But then when we turn to face the future, [00:32:15] we'll talk about yours first, because obviously you have a daughter.

[00:32:19] Charlotte: Yes,

[00:32:20] Hazel: and when you think about what what would you want for her that comes through your line? What are the things you'd say, what are the things to learn, [00:32:30] things to do differently and actually strengths she could take and build on?

[00:32:35] Charlotte: Um, well, I mean, firstly, a really important lesson my mum taught me, which she fully ingrained in me by having, uh, my brother when I was 13, was, [00:32:45] was, Wait until you're ready. Don't, don't do what I did and waste your life. Um, you know, make sure it's absolutely what you want and that, and actually you'll never be ready, but make sure that you've done all of the things that you want to do with your life.

[00:32:58] Charlotte: And [00:33:00] through that had a much kind of better sense of, um, what was involved in having children, especially because I spent a lot of time looking after my little brother. Um, and he really put me off. Yeah, thanks mum and Charlie. [00:33:15] Um, But what can I, I mean, what, what I can take is the strength, resilience, absolute pig headedness around.

[00:33:24] Hazel: Stubborn helps, you know, sometimes.

[00:33:26] Charlotte: Um, but you know, I'm actually, this is what's right for me. [00:33:30] This is what I need. And I'm going to, you know, I'm going to work really hard, do all of these things and wait until the point where I feel like I'm ready. But I think more than anything, the, probably the biggest lesson is that, um, that where I don't feel like there was a lot of genuine love [00:33:45] and affection in my, you know, in my kind of family line, that's absolutely something that, you know, is you will play forward.

[00:33:53] Charlotte: Yeah. And I probably like over the top, you know, just, but just the, you know, [00:34:00] making a real conscious effort to, you know, to say how you feel, to show how you feel, to, you know, to reinforce and to, and to care about how. Like see, you know, the, the, the child as a, as a person in their own right and acknowledge their feelings and [00:34:15] give them like a sense of, of their own mind and opinion, because I feel like for all of the women before me, they never really felt, I hate this word when it comes to, when a woman, but they never really felt empowered, like they didn't feel in [00:34:30] control.

[00:34:30] Charlotte: Not much of what they did was a choice. And, you know, I've. always been very stubborn in that this is my choice.

[00:34:40] Hazel: Yes, and you will exercise choice.

[00:34:41] Charlotte: And I will choose who I have a child with, and I will choose when I have a [00:34:45] child, and I'm very lucky in that we, we were able to, um, uh, and, and I will also make a choice that I don't want to have anymore.

[00:34:51] Charlotte: And there's a very, very, very specific reasons for that. Um, and. And, and that's my choice, even though I'm being, [00:35:00] even though every now and then I get the nudge, um, but yeah,

[00:35:03] Hazel: don’t want 14. And that's, what's so interesting. Cause you have choices, you make choices and that's so important, but it also allows you to decide.

[00:35:13] Hazel: The kind of mother you want to show [00:35:15] up as, learning all the lessons from the women before. And also, yeah, with that sort of greedy wish to hope that, and it will, life will flow on. So this is a line of life and love, and sometimes not love, and it's difficult. And [00:35:30] where it can end up is much love. And you wish that for her, and whether she has children or not.

[00:35:35] Hazel: But the moment, Your line continues. And that's the bit when I first did this with somebody who couldn't have children, that we'd been talking about this cost of passing on [00:35:45] life and what it can be for women. And the friend and I who can't have children, we went and talked to the facilitator to say, so what do we do?

[00:35:52] Hazel: Because you keep talking about, think several generations ahead and what might your children's children be like. And so you start to think about that real [00:36:00] flow of life and love. And actually, it's very different when your line stops. So you think, actually, can I be okay that from me, there's nothing else?

[00:36:10] Hazel: Well, actually, with everything that's gone before, yeah. [00:36:15] Because the cost of passing in life is so high in my family, it's, we've paid enough. Time to stop. So that's why I see it as, I'm the person that can stop this. Because it wasn't good. You've done it a different way, been able to take the lesson, [00:36:30] convert it and say, well, I will be loving as a mother and present as a mother.

[00:36:34] Hazel: And I will make active choices as a woman because I'm learning from all the women that maybe didn't get to do that.

[00:36:42] Charlotte: Yeah, I think. Yeah. And I think it's, um, [00:36:45] I think it's self awareness as well. Yeah, because you, unfortunately, as I've learned from you very well, you can't You can't avoid passing certain things on, but you can be aware of them and you can see them more. And you can [00:37:00] apologise and correct and, you know, and try and improve and be better and do all of those things. Um, but for me, that's a hard enough job with one. I don't want to replicate it. Um, you know, I can, selfishly or not, [00:37:15] um, that feels like the right thing to do.

[00:37:17] Hazel: But that's the thing, you've got to trust your instinct that says, and this is enough.Because all of that pressure that comes from your line of, Oh, and you've got to have a big family. Actually, no. You have to have the number of children that [00:37:30] suits you at the right time, and be okay. It is enough. You are enough. So, having your daughter in the world, knowing she's loved, is a better contribution than somebody who unhappily has a dozen. So, and, and I am okay that my family's paid high enough costs time for it to stop. You can also decide for people listening to this activity might decide actually the cost of passing on life is high. The other option is don't [00:38:00] waste it. And that's why I go and live my life. So whatever time I have until that line runs out. I'm not wasting it.

[00:38:07] Charlotte: Yeah, definitely.

[00:38:08] Hazel: Same for you, I think.

[00:38:09] Charlotte: Yeah.

[00:38:09] Hazel: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:38:13] Hazel: My thanks to [00:38:15] Charlotte so much for having this conversation with me and listening to my story. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Endings. And if you'd like to share your thoughts or your experiences about your maternal family line, [00:38:30] I really would love to hear them. And if you want to reach me on LinkedIn, I'm Hazel Showell.

[00:38:36] Hazel: You've got all my contact details there if you want to get in touch. Or HazelCS on X. If you found any of these [00:38:45] subject matters difficult, then please do check the show notes for resources that might help. I'm Hazel Showell, and I hope you'll join me again for another episode of [00:39:00] Endings.