Welcome to another episode of The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and today I'm joined by the truly inspiring Jo Middleton, director of Studies at Canine Principles Principal at the ISCP and Managing Director at. The IICE or ICE and all round trailblazer when it comes to education and ethics in the dog world, whether you are a pet guardian wanting to understand your dog better, or a dog professional looking to grow your skills, Jo's work has likely touched your journey in some way. We are diving into how education empowers dog praise, why continued learning matters, and how ethical accessible training. Benefits dogs. They're humans and the entire industry. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let's get started.

Welcome back to The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan D. Levy, and I'm so excited to bring you another episode of The Yappy Hour. Today. Joining me is Jo Middleton. Welcome to the Yappy Jo, how are you doing,

Hi, Nathan. I'm all good. Thank you. Really excited to be here.

Great. Thanks for joining us. One thing I forgot to say before we hit record is that it does come out of a little message saying that the quality isn't very good, but you don't have to worry about that. 'cause when it's all played back and edited, it's all absolutely fine. So yeah, so we've had a few internet problems and bits and pieces and that, but then we've. You know, we are pros. We can, we can do this. So Jo, I'm so excited to chat with you today and to learn more about you and your journey. But for anyone who doesn't know you yet, could you give us the whirlwind Jo intro. So here you are, what you do, and what keeps you so passionate about canine education.

So my name's Jamie Tilton and I head up the International Institute for Canine Ethics, the International School for Canine Psychology and Canine Principles. I've. Been in the doggy world a very, very long time. Actually quarter of a century. I'd say quarter of a century. More in the, ethical doggy world. Whereas before that I grew up around the show ring and it was very much aversive methods. It was back in the Barbara Woodhouse days. Yeah. And as a child, you going to ring craft classes and obedience classes, it was not at all in line with my values. So. Got involved in the rescue world back kind of 99, millennium and then retrained. I was told never to work with children never to work with children. Never to work with dogs because I'd never make any money. So I had to get a proper job as a child. That's what I was told. So I went down the corporate route. I'm bilingual French English. Yeah, it is. It set, sets you up with some skills, doesn't it, to that you can bring forward. Yeah, but I'm bilingual French English was brought up bilingually and so I worked in Paris for quite a while and,

wow.

Did lots of different bits and bobs but the dogs are always where my heart's been. Been around the education world for for quite a while and been self-employed. Set up my first business in 2000 when I was pregnant with my eldest daughter. Yeah, nothing better to do.

I'm pregnant. I'll just set up a business.

Why not? It was wonderful. I had lots of support. Yeah, I did. Had lots of support from the Prince's trust and the Chamber of Commerce. A really cool, cool journey. I. Yeah. So I guess what keeps me passionate is my work in rescue and that you see things that you can't unsee. And it's it's not an area that in all the years that I've, I've worked in rescue from kind of kennel assessments, microchipping, transport home checks through to trustee level. I don't see any change over all the years that I've been involved. So that's a massive area that keeps the fire burning in my belly to keep educating really.

Yeah. Brilliant. Oh great. I'd love, I learned some things that I didn't know about, 'cause obviously we haven't known each other that long, but in the last year or so. But it's always great getting, I love a bit of history and I feel like all these great

I'm not that old Nathan. A bit history.

no. You know what I mean? Like, I love what I mean is that I love people that have got a story,

Yeah.

you know, a story behind them. Like, and I was just about to say that, you know, I speak to all these great people that have been in the industry for a little bit longer than me because I've only, I feel like a baby. I've only been in the industry seven years. And then I speak to all you great people and you've been, you know, you've been in the industry for a lot longer and it's just so great just to hear, you know, your stories rather than your histories. As to why you

the fossil out.

as to why you fell into it maybe, but some similarities there. 'cause I came from a corporate background in banking, corporate business banking, and I, I use that now in my mentoring and stuff, so perfect. Thank you so much for your whirlwind intro. So we're gonna move on to our next question. So I love this 'cause you had not. You head up, not only one, but multiple organizations. We've got canine principles the ISCP and is O-I-I-C-E. What is your driving force behind these platforms, Jo?

I guess each platform exists to fill a gap where I wish I'd had additional support myself going becoming a. Sort of, well, we never stop learning, do we? It's every day's a school day and every single individual dog, teachers us something different. But canine principles is all about the accessible online ethical learning platform. Whether you are a dog guardian and you've got a dog that maybe is pulling on the lead and you want some guidance around how to help stop that, but without. Hurting the dog emotionally or physically, or whether you are a dog professional and you're looking for a formal off quail qualification.

Mm

Canine principle is kind of a one stop shop for everything, whereas the international school for canine Psychology. I mean, the ISCP and I have known each other since birth since the ICPs birth, not mine. Because I know, I know Lisa Tenson Dolma, the founder and I, I, she lived, she's not far away from me. And so,

Oh

we, we've been around each other for, for a long time. The ICP and I when, when she founded it. So the ISEP is more about the psychology side of things. Yes, we've got a lot of behaviour stuff and we really focus on making sure that everything is done where there's a tutor accessible one-to-one. As well as the online learning, but it's really a heart-centered diploma school for professionals who really want to get on the same geek level because we're all geeks. And and then the International Institute for Canine Ethics, which obviously you are hosting some of our member meetings as well, which is fabulous.

Yeah.

The, the International Institute for Canine Ethics, it really sort of bridges the emotional and the ethical side of care. So it's for every. Everyone who comes into contact with dogs as part of their day-to-day role. So whether you are a receptionist at a veterinary practice, whether you are a canine hydro, whether you're a vet nurse, whether you are a vet, whether you are a dog walker, borderer, groomer, behaviourist, trainer, if you come into dog contact with dogs as part of your day-to-day role, then you need to understand consent based handling. You need to understand how to recognize the signs when a dog's saying no and what alternatives. Can be done around that. So the International Institute for Canine Ethics is an. A professional membership organization that is really, really integral. And we've just launched our Ethical Canine Professional Register.

Yes.

assessing organization. I. For the A BTC, so we can support people in going down that pathway as well. And there are so many exciting things in the pipeline for the members at ice, which I'm not able to disclose just yet, but there are lots of exciting things.

I might have to tap you up for that at the end as well. That's one of my questions, but No, you can, you can, you can tell us what you can, but no, I love being part of ice. Love you know, my mentoring. Business is obviously a, a proud partner and I obviously help

Yep.

the groups on Facebook and host some of the meetings. But no, I love everything it stands for. And I liked

Hmm.

as well, is that we're continually learning from our own dogs, aren't we? And the dogs we

Yeah

but as. canine professionals, I dunno about you, but I used to always be a bit of a coarse junkie. We're always learning, all of us are always learning. We're always striving to be the best version of ourself for caregivers and their, you know, their pets. And yeah, I used to get like, you know, that our whole shiny new course syndrome and then had to sort of stop myself recently and decide, well, I need to actually finish some of these courses.

I gotta catch up on myself.

Yeah. But as

Hmm.

we are continually investing in our own CPD, our own education. And that's great that we've got sort of platforms and organizations like Canine Principles and ICE to help with that. So thank you so much for telling us a bit more around those. And moving on to our next section, which leads in nicely as to why education changes everything. Jo, my first question is, why is education such a game changer in the dog world? Especially for us pet pros.

It is quite a layered response to that question, I guess, because one is, I don't know if you've ever watched a film and then watched it a second time and seen things that you didn't see the first time or heard things that you didn't hear the first time It. It's really the same with education, so you can hear the same. Messaging, you can hear the same learn the same thing multiple times, but you'll take what you need from it at that time and, and what's relevant to you, the dogs that you are around at that time, and where your mindset is at at that time. One of the wonderful things with the International Institute. Institute for canine ethics is that we are able to help professionals to have the support to springboard their businesses from and really develop and grow. And that's a, a really key part because what we see so often with ethical dog professionals and canine professionals who strive to be the best versions of themselves that they can because they genuinely do deeply care about. The dogs that they're working with and the service that they're providing is we see massive imposter syndrome. When you're saying about being a coarse junkie. Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely. Course junkie number one over here. But what we can't do is let let our learning go sort of. We play it down a lot and what we need to do is have a look at even some of the major dog food brands that aren't in line with our values and maybe don't provide the nutritious value that they should. That's a great example. They've got the big marketing budgets. And their confidence is trumping the competence of the food that they're providing. And we see that sometimes in the dog world where maybe someone who isn't practicing ethically or isn't setting the dogs up for emotional safety. With the methods that they're using. They may have the confidence, but they haven't done the progression pathway. They haven't done the learning, the education. They don't continue to strive to be the best version of themselves that they can be and have that competence element I. But because they're confident and they're visible it's it's maybe seen that they are the go-to expert. So, because so many dog professionals do really care deeply and the ethical practices in the consent based practices are, are, are really the way forwards for the future of, of dog professionals everywhere. To provide access to the right learning means that we are able to give the knowledge of the language, the context, the platform really to be able to really stop reacting and start. Really embracing how we are able to support dogs and their guardians moving forwards and to find our voices and speak out for the dogs because if we don't advocate for them then we're not able to really, truly support the dogs in having the emotional safety and the the ability to be heard. So that's why I'm one of the reasons why I'm so passionate. But also I can waffle about it for days. Nathan,

Oh It. It it, I love it.

I, it is so important to me to really understand the, the gaps in our knowledge and identify them, and then focus on filling those gaps, but also to keep our learning current because there are new

Yeah.

being published all the time. There are new. Books coming out all the time, new research coming out. So it's really important for us to keep our learning current and to understand the nervous system, to understand pain behaviours, to understand how much sleep a dog needs. It, it's just the foundational stuff that we need to really keep reinforcing that dogs should be on two point of contact harnesses. So they've got the range of movement and their spine and their neck are in alignment. They shouldn't have their airways. Restricted and pressure put on their trackers. And the OC inocular pressure exacerbated with tools like slip leads, choke chains, or even just a flat collar and lead. Just the, the nutrition side, the sleep side, making sure a dog's teeth are checked so they're not in pain. All of these knowledge dot dots, we need to make sure that we are keeping our knowledge current and building on those foundations so that we're able to communicate to guardians without them feeling judged from an educational standpoint.

Yeah. Brilliant. That leads us nicer to my next question, but I just wanted to touch on, when you mentioned about imposter syndrome. It is, it is rife

Rife. Hmm

yeah. With like some of my mentees I work with as well but also myself, like obviously going, coming from a corporate background when I was. Actively practicing as a dog trainer, I'd never felt imposter syndrome until I became a dog trainer in all my

hmm.

career. It was, it was ridiculous. And obviously when you are new into the industry, it's a mindful, but yeah, and it's great that there's like places like. Canine principles and ICE that you can get the correct ethical advice and the courses. But it, yeah, it was, it was really a bit of a mindful when I first started out and like I said, didn't in experience imposter syndrome until I became a dog trainer. But what would you say are the biggest knowledge gaps that still exist even for new pet pros or even experienced ones? Jo?

I think the nutrition side of things, I is one that is constantly evolving and new research coming out. It is I. Yeah, it is. And it's an area that with the International School of Canine Psychology, we've got a level three diploma. Our tutor on that is a wonderful scientist who's. Absolutely fantastic. And we've got some cool stuff planned to help support people in better understanding. How to make sure that your dog's nutritional needs are met. What we find is that people are scared to experiment. They'd rather trust the marketing hype that I've talked about. Whereas what with the knowledge that we're able to provide through that level three diploma we're, we're able to make sure that you are well equipped to make sure that your client's dogs or your own dogs have got the nutritional values that they need in their food. I think. For me to. Imagine that I'd always fed my children McDonald's day in, day out. Other junk food brands are available, but

Yeah.

I don't wanna get in trouble. Yeah. But if I just fed them e numbers or processed foods all the time not only does well yeah. The, the cognitive impact within the, the brain doesn't have what it needs to function to its optimum. And the physical, as well. And it's no different with our dogs if they're not having their nutritional needs met either, but they have no control over that. We are the ones that control what they're eating. They.

That's the thing. Yeah.

They can't self select. Which is one of the reasons I love Sohar Cognos, but that's a whole different rabbit hole to go down.

It is. Yeah, it certainly

It is. But yeah, I'd say nutrition is probably the biggest gap that we see. And the one that always, sort of grieves me is when I'm out and about and I see dogs literally hanging themselves or, or strangle being strangled because they're not on walking equipment. That it is going to support their balance, their body, and it

Mm.

putting that pressure around their necks.

Yeah. Yeah. The, the nutrition one, it's, it is crazy 'cause it's such a controversial subject as well. And it's such a beast and like you said, it's forever evolving.

Mm.

and. And a lot of what comes up in this podcast is that, you know, like the public as well. Like you don't know what you don't know. So until

Yeah.

try and educate them, know, it's all about, it comes back down to education all the time. You know, the walking equipment and the nutrition.

and not judging and not criticizing guardians who have got it wrong, or pet professionals who have been misled. I, I'd love to know some statistics. I've no idea how we'd get them, but I'd love to know some statistics around how the, increase of reels and TikTok videos has impacted the quick fix view that we seem to have as a nation now. Because the, what you see in a 60, 92nd reel is it is not real. It is not real life.

It's smart. That

Yeah. Yeah. The real's not real.

Yeah, I

Yeah.

unfortunately we are in a, we are in a space now, like we do want the quick fixes and we, we are not prepared to put in the work unfortunately. And

Mm

it like on TV or TikTok and Yeah, unfortunately people just are busy. You know, we're

mm

and we just, people just wanna just, yeah. Quickly get the quick fixes, unfortunately.

But then if you flip that, oh, sorry.

no, you go my love. Go on.

If you flip that and think if I was fostering a child, a toddler that had been through significant trauma and they had no control, I was responsible for providing them with the nutrition. I was responsible for making sure that they were properly clothed, they were safe in the adult world that they were living in. I would not be expecting a quick fix or some magic wand that was going to make that child do, as it was told, conform to whatever boundaries I put in place, and I would definitely not be expecting to put something on that child that would electrocute it, nor would I be expecting to put some sort of noose around its neck. It's, it's when you think about it in those terms, the dogs don't have choices. It's up to us to create environments in which they are able to make choices safely so that they're feeling empowered and they've got that agency and they're able to feel self-worth and grow their self-confidence and, and build the bond with humans. If we are constantly. Coming from a place of do, as I say or else you're going to get hurt, that's not going for any free thinking being, that's not going to set them up for emotional safety or a feeling of success. So I think it's really important from. The education point of view that we carry on planting the seeds and we carry on making sure that we're being the advocates for our dogs that we need to be.

Yeah, definitely really big on advocacy and being your dog superhero. Thank you so much. So talking,

I.

on to canine principles. So canine Principles is known for its ethical science-based content. How do you go about making education truly accessible and inclusive? Jo?

Hmm. I think what we really need to focus on is making sure that we are student centric in our approach with everything that we do. We, I. Have got off qual formal qualifications. But we also have a massive range of other courses as well. So what we've introduced this year is live courses. So we've delivered the progressive dog rehab specialist course live so that it's more interactive so that people are able to ask questions, chat, and just really make sure that we are being meeting all different learning styles. So you, you've got the workbooks, you've got the texts. Stuff, the copy for people that like to print things out, highlight, scribble all over them like me. But then you've also got the post-it notes everywhere. But then you've also got the video and the interaction element as well. So that's something new that we've introduced this year. We've also got an unlimited. CPD Skill hub, so it's a monthly membership. You get a monthly guest webinar. From a, a guest expert that comes in and delivers amazing content, but you've got the playback to watch as long as you are a member of the CPD skills hub. So you've got unlimited CPD, you get a certificate for each course, workshop or webinar that you complete within the CPD skills hub, but you have got access to that at whatever pace or whatever learning. Style that you need to to have met. You can get that through the CPD skill hub. It's not rushed. It's not pressured. It's up to you and you can choose cherry pick what you want or need at that time. So for example, if you are. Going to see a dog that's displaying reactive behaviours. You can search a CPD scar hub to find something that's going to support you in making sure, even if you're just refreshing knowledge that you've already gained or you want a little confidence boost, you've got those resources the, for you. And then the final thing, I guess the final way that we, we make sure that. Everyone is really part of the Canine principles community is our student Facebook group. So

Yes. Yeah.

it, if you're in the group, there's really no such thing as a silly question. And I know we all feel sometimes, oh no, it might be a silly question. Just post anonymously if you think it's gonna be, as you're gonna get some backlash off it, or you don't want to ask it as yourself. Just post anonymously and get people's feedback because the dog world. Can be quite a cruel place sometimes as a dog professional, everyone is very passionate. Everyone everyone you would like to think would be in it for the best interest of the dogs, but sometimes things do get a bit heated and if you've. Typed something out and deleted it again and thought, no, I'm not gonna post that. Then canine principles is definitely the place for you to be learning because we will support you in making sure that you are reaching your full potential, no matter whether you want to follow the traditional behavioural route and go up to your, your level five, your level six, or whether you want to niche into something more like. Trauma reactivity, nutrition anxiety, something like that. Canine principles is the place for you there.

brilliant. That Facebook group, I think has got about 60,000 members as well. It's crazy. So

has, yeah, the page has, yeah. We've got quite a big following. Yeah.

of course. Yeah.

Yeah.

study group and then the, the page. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah.

It's, it's brilliant. So moving on to our next section, which is all about dog parents. So for any dog, parents guardians that may be listening, hopefully they are. Our first question is, do you think pet guardians should engage in dog training, behaviour education too, even if they're not in inverted commas in the industry.

Oh my goodness. Yes. You are. Oh, absolutely. So. I believe controversially to some that training the human is more important than training the dog because the dog already really knows its behaviour. What we are doing by training. The human is making sure that they're being consistent with how they're showing up for their dog. Making sure that the dog isn't getting one message from one member of the family and one member from another one message from another. Even just the body language. Nevermind the verbal cues. Cues. So if you are a dog guardian, you are with your dog 24 7. Sort of day in, day out, apart from if you have to pop out when you are working with a behaviourist or a dog walker comes in once a day or any professional, they're with your dog for a tiny little limited amount. They're with you and your dog for that tiny little limited amount. So the more that you can understand as a dog. Guardian about your dog's communication and their needs. The less confusion they'll be, the less conflict they'll be, the less stress they'll be for you and your dog. But most importantly, it will be that trust bond that your building with your dog, and that is such a beautiful thing. I talk about paying into the emotional bank account of our dogs and. We need to pay into their emotional bank accounts before we can ask anything from them. So before we can make a withdrawal from a banking background, it's quite appropriate for you.

love, love that analogy.

But we do, we, I pinched that, that's not mine. I dunno which book it was. I read that that was in, but it was but we, we, we need to make sure that we are constantly paying into their emotional bank account so that we've got that trust bond with them. 'cause if you are just trying to ask them for something and you've got no bond, it, it makes things really tricky.

Mm. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely

I.

Thank you so much. So what would you say is a common myth about dog behaviour that you wish everyone knew wasn't true?

Just the one,

Oh, wow. Yeah, you could do as many as you

I think, I think the biggest one is still dominance theory and that dogs are trying to be the boss of us.

I know.

they're not. They're trying their hardest to cope in a, a world that they don't understand, a world that's confusing. And if a dog's struggling, they really need safety and understanding. They don't need you to control them. They're not trying to be the boss of you. They're, they're struggling and they're communicating with you that they're struggling. So I'd say that's probably the biggest myth that I would love to see busted.

And I think it's because like they see a dog try to mount another dog and oh, they're trying to dominate it. But you know, we know, and hopefully a lot of people do and will take away from this, is that if a dog's over aroused, like their bucket's fallen, overflowing, they will mount another dog

Yeah.

trying to release that arousal. But you know, like, again, going back to, we dunno, what we don't know is that people think, oh, he, he's mounting him or how he's just trying to dominate the dog and that's not what they're doing.

Mm. Also I think, like things come generational, Lee, don't they? They come down generations and it's what granddad said, what mom said, and now what you've, you are saying. But I was on a podcast last night with Debbie Luckin from Kids Around Dogs and she was saying, just remember that your children are always watching. They're always, they're like little. Sponges kind of thing. They're always watching. Always listening. And our dogs are too, and we need to be really careful. Mm

That's, that's, I love that. That's really, that's really interesting. What advice, Jay, would you give to any pet parent dog guardian, feeling overwhelmed or in, or unsure who to trust when it comes to training advice online?

mm.

I.

I'd probably say start trusting your gut. If it doesn't sit right with you, then trust your gut. Look for professionals who really do. Study with ethical organizations like Canine Principals in the international school for canine psychology. Obviously I'm biased, but there are others out there as well. But we want to make sure that we're using professionals who, and creating almost a circle of care of professionals for each dog. So a vet, maybe a hydro, maybe a physio. So you've got those. Ethical professionals that you can call on to support your dog when you need to. Don't wait for something to crop up. And then you are looking for the professional. Just have those professionals follow them. Do your research before you need them, and never be afraid to ask for a second opinion, even if it's your vet. We, we tend to trust our vets because they are the professional, but. Every vet has different specialisms and every vet. It's not possible for a human to know everything. So you are perfectly within your rights to go to a different veterinary practice. If something doesn't sit right with you you're perfectly within your rights to ring around. And like for example, my little staffy girl, Lola, had something neurological going on and I wasn't comfortable with the, I just, I just wanted the peace of mind of a second opinion because I didn't want to put to sleep. And I wanted to make sure it was the right choice. So I rang around and asked. Do you have a vet who specializes in this? And three practices said no, and one said yes. So I went and saw that veterinary professional at that practice, and then I also rang our local veterinary hospital and paid to have a Zoom call with their specialist there as well. But it just, you are, people don't realize that you are able to do that and you are able to, you, you are in charge. You are the customer.

Hmm.

So you are able to make those choices, and if it doesn't sit right, trust your gut.

Yeah. Yeah. It is, it is like a mindful with all the conflicting advice, but luckily we've got like, you know, platforms like canine principles, the ICP and I but yeah, I,

Oh,

I've act, I've, God, am I lovely.

We've got the Ethical Canine Professional Register on the if you go to canine ethics.org, look for professionals who are listed on the It is live. Yes. Go on. Go on canine ethics.org and click on register and you'll see. But you'll be able to find one near you.

Yeah, yeah, I'm on that. I'll go and check. I'll go and check

Yay.

as well. Yeah. Brilliant. And yeah, I was gonna say, I got a second opinion with my dog, LIO. I talk about a lot on it 'cause he's got sa and chronic back pain. But we did, we had a referral and we went to one specialist hospital, but then I went to another one. It's just for that

Mm-hmm.

peace of mind,

Yeah.

So moving on to our next section, which is all about how us pet pros can keep growing, Jo. So for dog walkers like myself, pet sitters, groomers, trainers, tuning in, where do they start if they want to level up their knowledge?

I'd go over to the ISCP International School for canine psychology, the iscp.com and grab the free course on canine bite-sized communication. I think that's a brilliant place to start. We need to understand dog's, body languages and you should also always have a current canine first aid certificate as well. So if you go over, yeah, really important. If you go over to canine principles.com, you can get your first aid certificate over there. But it's important that you keep it current because, things change, guidance changes,

do.

And best practice changes. And also to maybe think about exploring more trauma-informed approaches. Maybe look at your bite-sized CPD, the CPD skill hub. I know like it's not about promoting, but I'm just thinking what we've got in our armory that could help.

so good.

There's, there's just so much sort of education stuff that you could be doing, but I'd say the body language, that free free course with the ISCP and the first aid would be the essentials. But also to continue growing just. I guess remember that when you are feeling those, that mind monkey chatter of I'm not good enough. Who am I to do that? Or that sort of stuff that your brain tells you just to remember that that voice is, it's actually a sign that you care. And it's because you care that you are feeling that imposter syndrome. So find your crowd, find find your people. We've got amazing communities that you can join. Find them because. They will be your sanity. In times when, when you are really doubting yourself, that community, that mentorship it is just absolutely second to none because it can be quite a lonely road sometimes out there in the dog world. I,

Yeah. And I think, like you said, as dog, as pet professionals, we do care a lot. That's

hmm.

we do what we do, but we can then suffer from like compassion fatigue. And it's important to get around people that get it. Like you say,

Yeah.

your your gang, find your community. So what would be the advice to someone who does feel a bit stuck or like an imposter in their pet care career?

Ooh. Okay. So back in 2000 and. Seven. I fled an abusive relationship, moved across to a different part of the country and was homeless with two children under the age of six. I had to do an awful lot of work on my mindset and an awful lot of rebuilding. Everything. And I read a book called Change Your Life in Seven Days by Paul McKenna. And you read a chapter a day for the seven days. And I'm not saying in that seven days, ma magically my life transformed. But I swear that book was. Absolutely pivotal for me. It comes with a hypnosis that you can access now on YouTube. It's a 30 minute hypnosis you listen to morning and night. And yeah, I, I'd say listen to that, read that book and practice some of the techniques that he teaches you and yeah, a game changer.

Wow. Wow. Thank you. Brilliant. And how we've already mentioned this a little bit, but how important is community and mentorship in learning in your view?

Oh, it is just a lot of our students come to us. In sort of as mature students. So maybe they've been out of education for many years or maybe they have got NeuroD diversities that weren't recognized in the traditional educational system. What we've got with our community, it brings perspective, it brings encouragement, it brings the motivation. It can give you the accountability. You've got your tutor that you can reach out to whenever you you want to, but having that community of your peers and just to say things like, like I'm writing a book at the moment, I. I'm in the canine principles has got a writer's course, gerdon, who you've had on the podcast, heads that up. And just to be in the, the writer's group that we've got, and for me to be able to say, oh, I haven't written anything this week. And someone to say something like. Crack on then, which is,

crack the whip.

yeah. Or, or j

they, I thought you were gonna say, oh. They were like, oh, it's all right. Don't worry. But

no trot on.

on.

But just to have some accountability or, or for someone to say, don't worry, I haven't either. And, and like say she'll be accountability buddy. Or you know, just to have that sort of. Ongoing support from people who are walking the same path. If you, as you or have walked that path is just super cool.

Yeah. So you say that writing, that writing circle is part of canine principles, is it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've got the,

All right.

Yeah and we've got a writer's retreat coming up in October as well, which is gonna be super cool. Yeah. Jay and I are leading it 'cause we're both both published authors darling. So,

yes you are. Yes.

yeah. So it's gonna be super cool. Hope you can come.

Oh, okay. Well listen out for more about that. Okay. So just moving on to our next section. And then we're, we've not, well we'll be wrapping up soon. We've literally sailed through this one. So values led learning, so the IICE ICE and the ISCP are known for their ethical framework. are values like consent, compassion, and individuality? That's a big one at the core of the way you teach Jo.

Dogs are sentient beings. They're not robots. They're, they feel they have. Basic needs, but they have layers on top of that. So they deserve autonomy. They deserve respect. They deserve to be heard when they're saying no. And professionals deserve training. That doesn't put them against the. Animals that they love and they want to help. So the, I guess the values, they're not sort of extra icing on the cake. They're really the foundation of truly ethical work that we do.

Yeah.

I.

Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. So how can education be part of creating a more ethical and emotionally safer pet industry? Jo, I.

Ooh, GLI me. How can education be part

part

sorry.

No, no. That's cool. How can education be part of creating a more ethical and emotionally safer pet industry?

I guess it's a cultural shift. And we want it to become the norm. It should be the norm and it. When we teach ethically, we are changing culture. We are showing up and coming. Dog professionals. That control isn't power. The, the compassion element is the true power. And we are really sort of. Picking apart and dismantling the outdated, harmful former norms, if you like, that were the Barbara Woodhouse days, the CAEs and Lamb sort of. And, and there are many, sadly still out there who promote aversive methods, but education is really that cultural shift and forming a more, a more compassionate core of dog professionals that is the new normal, as opposed to the dog professionals who maybe are still out there supporting the use of various tools or, or methods that harm a dog, not just physically, but emotionally as well.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a shame that that's still going on, but we just need to keep flow flying that ethical flag. So great.

Yeah.

We're gonna start wrapping up this episode. It's been packed full of so much information I've absolutely loved you know speaking with you. So moving on to our final section, which is all about looking ahead. what's next for you, Jo Canine principles. ICE and the ISCP. exciting

all the secrets.

Any, any exciting projects or future hopes that you can share? Any additional exciting projects or future hopes or anything you

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, definitely. So the Progressive Dog Rehab Specialist course that we delivered live a few weeks ago is going through the CPD accreditation process, so that'll be formally accredited and rolled out as a formal CPD accreditation with canine principles, which is. Mega exciting. And we've also got our writer's retreat as well coming up in October, which is really, really cool. So that's going to be co-presented by Jay Gerin and I, save the date, 13th of June, 2026. Harborough University, the Canine Principles conference. Which yeah. Oh yeah, that's, hmm. That I went to. Oh, so exciting. The lineup. But. What was really funny was we went to, to view the venue. I went with my husband and I was like, I'm sold. I need to study here. I need, and he's like, oh, brilliant. Yeah, yeah, you do that. And I, hold on. You do realize that I won't be at home like Monday to Friday. He's like, yeah, you go. I, I'm not quite sure how to take that.

Where, where is it? Well, you know, he's, he's obviously wants to support you. Where is it? Not heard? Tell,

Harre.

I've not heard of it before. Har.

Oh, it's, yeah, Gloucestershire. Really, really cool place. Yeah, set. It's set in hundreds of acres of rolling countryside and just the most amazing learning space. So that's the 13th of June next year. And.

That's exciting.

It is, there's so much exciting stuff going on.

with that. You know, I do.

Ah, honestly, it, oh yeah. See, but you might wanna get involved with some of the other stuff as well. So,

well, I'll get involved with it. Oh, you know me.

Yeah. Love it. The ISEP, we've got the big dog psych conference, which is a virtual one coming up summit rather than conference. Yeah, that one's going to be towards the end of this year. So keep your ears and eyes peeled for more info on that one. Some of the international, scientists, top behaviourist trainers that we've got jumping in on that are like mind blowing starstruck. So that's really exciting. With the ISEP as well. We are launching a new course over the next few weeks actually which is a level three mental health first aid course for people working in dog rescue. We, we spoke about this before, didn't we?

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So what I would love to see is for every rescue to have a dedicated mental health first aider within their team. And I know from my experience in rescue over the past 25 odd years that. The pressures that, that, the time, the resource pressures, et cetera, on rescues, this almost seems like an extra thing to add to that. However,

However.

the emotional toll for someone in rescue who gets into it because they love the animals and they love dogs and they want to make a difference, and then they're having to turn dogs away because there is. Just no room for them. And they're feeling that they're sentencing that dog to death because there is no room for that dog. That mental toll, it, it, I can't even describe. I did a podcast with, the, the raw pet medics A couple of months ago,

yes, yes.

I was speaking about this kind of thing. By the end of that week I had I think five dogs that had been basically, it had been shifted onto my my plate, if you like, that if I didn't find somewhere for these dogs to go, they'd be put to sleep. And for that mental strain is, is just horrific. So. That is something that we're launching through the ISCP and we are going to be working with rescues worldwide to roll that out to see if we can really make an impact to support, better support the mental health of people working in rescue. And that leads me nicely onto what we've got coming with the International Institute for Canine Ethics. There's a couple of things, a couple of things with the International Institute for Canine Ethics.

just rebranded as

Oh,

You

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The,

Yeah. Love it.

Yes. So the International Institute for Canine Ethics is all about supporting dog professionals in being the most ethical version of themselves that they can be. So no matter how you come into contact with dogs during your role, I supports you with ongoing learning, ongoing CPD and the support network that we all need in the dog world. The traditional kind of rule when a dog is rehomed is called the 3, 3 3. The 3, 3, 3, 3 days, three weeks. Three months is a rigid timeline of things that you should be able to expect from that dog or for the dog to stages for the dog to have gone through by the three month period. With the aim to reduce bounce backs into rescue really, and for guardians to have a better understanding of the dog that they've re-homed. However, you and I both know that dogs can't stick to a rigid timeline. They don't know that by three days they should be doing this or by three weeks they should be doing that. So ICE is, has got a new, a, a new 3, 3, 3. We, we want to keep the. Guidance, the stages for guardians to understand so that they're able to see what stage their dog's at. But we don't want a rigid timeline because the last stage is ongoing for the dog's life. It's not gonna happen by three months. It's a constant paying into that emotional bank account. So ICE is just launching the. Three stages of adjustment. You'll be able to download the overview of the three stages of adjustment as a free resource on the ICE website. It's literally going live this week. It's all been drafted and we've actually got some press. We, we are in some pretty big press about it as well. But the what we're, we're doing is working with a, a wonderful team to roll that out across rescues across the uk. Buddy it up with a mental health first aid course from the ISCP. And provide the education to guardians who are adopting dogs and implementing the three stages of adjustment with the ongoing education that they can tap into as and when they need it, when they see a stage or an element of a stage. So that's super exciting and hopefully going to make a a massive difference. And then the other thing with ICE that we are working on for prep professionals is a fabulous, amazing support team of everything that you need to grow and develop and find your voice to speak out your confidence, everything that you need from your business strategy to your accreditation pathway, to getting on the A BTC pathway. Every, even, even your copywriting for your social media platforms or your blog posts, or if you go out. You've got a client with a case study that you're not quite sure how to act or how, what to say, or you, you can't find the words we are providing something that is completely end to end for you. That's in beta testing mode at the moment.

So exciting.

I know and there's more, but I can't tell you.

That's okay. That's fine. I'm loving it. We've got lays of lots to work with there, but no exciting times. So Jo, if you could give one message to every person working with dogs right now, what would it be?

Ooh. I think don't confuse being compassionate with being weak. Don't, don't let anyone ever make you feel that by being compassionate, you are being weak. Doing right by the dogs, even when it's hard, is the strongest thing really, that you can do. So don't let other people or, or don't ever let yourself talk. And that mind monkey chatter confuse compassion with weakness. Would be my message.

Brilliant. Brilliant. I love that. Jo, thank you so much. Literally, this episode's been jampacked with so much information. I've loved it. Finally, how can people get in touch with you, Jo, if they wanna find out more?

Just pop a message over. Just head over to your email and type in jojo@kineprinciples.com.

Brilliant. Thank you so much. Jerry Middleton, thank you for joining me on The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappy today. Absolutely loved it. We will get you back in the future 'cause I feel we've just scratched your, there's lots more we can talk about. Thank you for your time and we will see you again soon.

Thank you for having me.

You are

Wow. That was a truly enlightening conversation. Jo's passion for education, ethics and empowerment absolutely shines through, and it's clear that learning isn't just about ticking boxes. It's about doing better for dogs and ourselves. Here are a few golden nuggets from today's chat. Number one. Learning is a journey, not a destination, especially in a field as emotional and evolving as pet care. Number two, accessible ethical education empowers everyone from seasoned pet pros to brand new pet parents. Number three, values should guide education. Science matters, but so does compassion. Number four, imposter syndrome is normal. Community support and small steps forward are key. Number five, dog guardians can benefit hugely from ongoing learning too because understanding your dog is the ultimate relationship. Goal. Thank you so much, uh, to Jo for sharing your heart and wisdom with us today. We'll link all of Jo's incredible platforms and resources in the show notes, including canine principles, the ISCP and ice. Until next time, keep learning, keep growing, and give your dog a cuddle from me. This has been the Yappy Hour powered by Yappily