0:00:00.0 VB: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:09.2 AS: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:20.1 VB: Each week we're going to explore new topics, that are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:26.1 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:31.5 VB: Welcome back everyone.

0:00:35.9 AS: Welcome back. Spring is going to spring soon, I think, the beginning of March is when you guys are listening to this. And we're ready for it to get a little bit warmer here in California. We've had a rough couple of weeks.

0:00:52.8 VB: Yeah. Getting close to spring break. And I feel like we've been talking a lot about legal changes lately, and here today we're going to talk about another one. So we'll just get right into it just to, and for you listeners who aren't in California, this applies to many of you as well as California joins 22 other states. So we're not alone in this, we're bringing cursive back. It was gone with COVID, now it's coming back.

0:01:17.3 AS: And so we have an expert that will walk us through as to the benefits of cursive. So Dr. Christina, thank you so much for coming onto our podcast.

0:01:26.5 CB: Well, thank you for having me.

0:01:30.9 VB: So, as Amanda mentioned, California's requiring public schools to now have their students learn cursive. Can you explain to our listeners a little bit of your background and how you became so passionate about cursive?

0:01:43.5 CB: Yeah, that would be great. Well, first of all, I'm an occupational therapist from Lexington, Kentucky. And when I graduated OT school, my first job was in the school system. And so I was a school-based OT and I went to a professional development workshop of Handwriting Without Tears. We're now known as Learning Without Tears. And I just saw how I thought, oh, this is right on par with being developmental, multi-sensory. So I started using the program with kids that were on my caseload, and I started to see how they were impacted positively by that program. And I really just dove in with looking at handwriting as something that can help not only the kids with their writing skills, but really with all academic areas, because they're writing in math, they're writing in science and social studies. So this was something that became a passion of mine. And now 25 years later, working full-time for Learning Without Tears as the senior internal learning manager there. So I really have a passion for handwriting, and I see how kids really can be impacted positively by this skill.

0:03:02.4 VB: I love that you went to a professional development seminar and that's how you came across to it. And it's just, it's so important to continue to learn about these new things and it just created a new career path for you. That's amazing.

0:03:11.1 CB: Yes. And it's, we all want that .... Well, I think we want to be those lifelong learners. So it was something that I think we always are trying to find things to learn from and that was something that I saw as just a perfect fit of having that developmental multi-sensory based approach.

0:03:30.0 AS: Yeah. And it's interesting how, I mean, it seems like a short time, but it was a bit of time where we faded from having cursive as even being part of the curriculum when California and other states, I believe it was like 40 states adopted the common core standards. And of course, there are lots of criticisms of Common Core, but one of the aspects of it was leaning away from cursive, and really, I mean, realistically, looking at the time in the classroom and just how much emphasis on the core academics common core put on, there just wasn't the time for the cursive writing. But now educators have realized the benefits of it and it's coming back, but there's definitely going to be that generation of kids that never, I mean, we had to do cursive writing, and I remember going through school being like, you're going to need to know cursive because you're going to have to use it in high school.

0:04:28.4 AS: And by the time I got to high school, it was not something that we did. I think that must have been start of the fade out. Because that fade out, it was at the same time as we're fading in technology and starting to use computers. And I feel like anything that I had in high school that was supposed to be final draft had to be typed. So are we seeing cursive as being introduced back as part of this tool to help learn? Do you think that we're going to see this shift to having to use it more in later education or more in early education? What are your thoughts on that? What are you seeing?

0:05:04.6 CB: Yeah, that's a great question, Amanda. I think we are seeing that cursive is starting in third grade, 'cause that's really where the eye-hand coordination is most fully developed. And so, and it's not in, like you said, Amanda, with the technology, it's not one versus the other. I mean, kids, children need to learn both because they're still writing in the classroom, they're writing about 60% of the day when we think about journal writing and writing math problems and writing all the subject areas. So that's something that it needs to be taught. They need to be taught how to write, and then they need to be taught the cursive writing because we're going to see that it's much faster. There's the research behind the neural pathways in the brain. Those reading circuits are activated when handwriting occurs.

0:05:54.2 CB: So I think when we can establish it in third grade and then continue it in fourth grade and it becomes something that they're using and they're not losing, then we can start to see this as a life skill. Now, I know I was taught cursive in third grade, but I don't write my name like I did when I was in third grade. So I have that mixture.

0:06:15.7 AS: No way.

0:06:16.1 CB: And I think a lot of us have that mixture of cursive in print, and it becomes that how we're going to write fast. And that's something that I think is happening. And we also know that recall is so important. When we write, we're recalling that information. And I know even my daughter who's, my middle daughter, she's a freshman in college, and she said, mom, I don't want to type on my laptop. I remember things when I'm writing. And that's what happens. That's that recall of information. So I think, and especially in college too, we're starting to see some of the colleges that are saying, Hey, we need to get away from the laptops because kids, they're looking up different things on there, they're not paying attention. And if we can close those laptops and have them writing, they're going to retain that information better.

0:07:06.6 VB: And I do want to clarify that it becoming a law and come back, it doesn't mean that there were states that didn't teach it and it wasn't part of the law. I think having the law be put into place is that minimum of like, Hey, you have to get to this because I think the shift that we had seen was poor test performing on state testing. And so then it was like, okay, what can we cut? And so one of the first things my understanding is that cursive would be cut. Because if we have low test scores, we got to put in some extra time and what can we cut out that isn't mandated? And so with it actually becoming a law, then it means that, you know what, we actually have to make time for it. And then I think that's where we saw a lot of the research about recall and the neurological benefits. And even just for confidence wise for some kiddos that do get to learn.

0:08:01.5 CB: Exactly. I mean that...

0:08:03.3 VB: Yeah.

0:08:03.8 CB: Yeah. That confidence, excuse me, is huge, Vickie. I mean, that is something that I saw a lot with kids.

0:08:10.6 VB: And I think that's not something that people would typically, they would not put confidence with cursive. But there is something with the flow of it. And I mean, you are the OT so maybe you can talk a little bit more about what it would be, you did mention faster writing, but what are some of the other benefits from your perspective along with the competence? Or how are you seeing competence in kiddos?

0:08:35.0 CB: Well, I'll just tell you, I still remember this story of a child that I was working with, first year out of school, and I went into a kindergarten classroom. And there was a little boy named Tyler in the back of the room. And he was looking down at his paper, and that's who I was going to see. And I walked up to him and the teacher said, we gave him a box of crayons and he asked what they were. So he had never been, he never had a tool put in his hand. And so I started to work with him. He was one that didn't have any friends. He kept, I mean, he never made eye contact with me. And so over the months I started working with him, I started to see some progress. And especially with his letter identification and just writing his name, he couldn't even tell me at the beginning that the T was his first letter in his name.

0:09:25.5 CB: So we were just really focused in on letter recognition and letter identification. And then I remember walking into the classroom, I think it was about six months later, this one day I walked in and he saw me and he goes, Ms. Christina, did you know that garage starts with a letter G? And he got in trouble because he had that outburst. But I was so excited because he actually got on his report card that he was talking too much in class, which was great. Here was a child and you could see that he was now writing, he was holding his pencil correctly. He was getting good grades and reading and his spelling was great. So to me that was like a huge Aha moment. And I'll never forget that. I mean, this child's probably now what, 30, 31 years old. And it was just something that made such a huge impact in my life of seeing what a great thing handwriting could be for a child.

0:10:29.3 AS: Yeah. Well, and I think an important thing to note is as we talk about all of these benefits of handwriting, we often see things that are considered extra part of like academic curriculum are the first things that are cut from special education. I'm like, if we're going to, I don't want to say water down, but we're going to decrease the expectations in say a special day class, I have seen this as being something that is not taught. And I think it is really important for us to have these conversations about, there are such benefits of it that children in special education should still be getting the benefits of it, just like their typical peers getting that equal access.

0:11:06.9 AS: And we need to remember that yes, it might take more work, it might need be one more thing we need to teach them, but because there are such benefits of it, it needs to be something that is of importance. And I hope as we start fading back into having this be a regular thing in the classrooms in elementary school, that we are remembering to include that in our special education classes, and not just, well, this is a general education standard and this is an easy time for the kid who's mainstreaming to be pulled out to RSP, because I could totally see that happening, and so I think this conversation is so important.

0:11:40.4 CB: Most definitely. And when we think about just the benefits of handwriting, that it activates both the left and right hemispheres of the brain, that it's going to improve those fine motor skills and it facilitates that speed and fluency. And those children that may be diagnosed with ADHD or dyslexia or dysgraphia, cursive can be such a great fresh start for those children. Because when we think about the connections, 'cause that's what cursive is, it's all about connections. Because we think about that word, we're connecting those letters within a word.

0:12:19.3 CB: And those connections in cursive can really aid in memory and retention of that information. It can reduce those letter reversals. So that's great for children with dyslexia, because here we are, I've worked with a lot of children with dyslexia and dysgraphia, and when we can provide multisensory experiences and using these connections in cursive, that can really help to reduce those reversals. And then you think about the children with ADHD, they can benefit from cursive as it takes that attention and it's taking that focus and practicing those connections and having that, being able to use a motor practice is really going to help them with improving their focus and concentration.

0:13:04.9 VB: I think that's really helpful, that breakdown for people to really understand it, the intricacies of it's not just about having fancy cursive writing for your signature. It really is a model. And the way in which you describe it, I think a lot of parents hear multisensory, multisensory, and it has become such a buzzword that it loses all of its meaning. And so for you to be able to say, look, it is literally about, and figuratively about the connections between the words, it really, I think for me that explanation really paints a brighter picture of why it is needed and why it's being taken a step further and put into law. Because even though that was just something that was really in the curriculum, it is just sad to see it phased out or being one of these disposable things that a whole generation, like Amanda said, went without. It doesn't mean that it wasn't being taught in certain other ones, but yeah. If you're not catching them in third grade, you're not as a fourth-grade teacher going to start doing it.

0:14:15.6 AS: Well, yeah. I mean, I know in some school districts in California we're still including it in the third and fourth-grade curriculum 'cause it was really left up to the school districts. But how useful is that when it's only just a small fraction versus, I mean, I remember it was all through elementary school we had things that we were required to do in cursive writing. And I mean, yeah, I think as you talked about at the beginning of the episode about how a lot of us have really blended, I mean, if I'm handwriting something and I write really fast, so it's super messy, you can see half of it's in cursive and half is in print because it's still there because we did it so much. And like everything, the more repetition you have of something, the more it can help. So I think it'll be really helpful that we have that consistency as school districts really need to step it up and see, this is a tool, not just something that you were required to do, but seeing it as that tool of, here is an aid or something that can really help with all kids, but particularly our kids in special education, there's such a benefit.

0:15:19.7 CB: Oh, definitely. And I think, when we think about it, it's that life skill that we're teaching with cursive. And encouraging, when we're talking about that multisensory, I just think of all these children have different learning styles. And so when we're providing those multisensory learning of the different strategies that we do, that's just giving each of 'em with engaging their different senses so that they can really retain those cursive connections. And then we're going to teach it in the easiest way. So when I'm helping children with cursive, we teach it in a vertical style. So it's not that slanted style that...

0:16:01.6 VB: Oh, okay. Yeah.

0:16:03.3 CB: Yeah. So it's just a vertical style and that is, it's basically just taking the print and connecting it. And so then it's easier to read and it's easier to write. And children will then, they'll develop their own fluency and their style. So we've de-looped the loops and those curly cues making it all fancy, 'cause that's where some children, especially children that may be diagnosed with dysgraphia or dyslexia, they struggle with those. They're going to struggle with having to change direction in mid-stroke. So when we can just make it as easy as possible, children are going to have more success with that.

0:16:42.5 AS: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

0:16:44.9 CB: So we're going to just want to start with those basic strokes.

0:16:47.7 AS: Yeah.

0:16:48.6 VB: Yeah. Yeah. What is the pushback? Why do people not want cursive back? Do you run into that? Do you run into your administrator...

0:16:56.6 CB: Oh yeah.

0:16:57.2 VB: So what is their point of view?

0:17:00.8 CB: Well, I think a lot of it is, well, they're not looking at the research. So we have that research that shows that, okay, these neural pathways are really activated when handwriting is occurring. And then they're thinking, well, we don't have time, our teachers don't have time. And to me it's like, if you can carve out 10 minutes a day, you're going to get that time back because children aren't going to have to think about the mechanics of writing, they're thinking about the content of what they're writing. And then it becomes, all we're trying to do is get this skill to be automatic and a natural skill for them so that they are independent in their writing. And so just giving that 10 minutes a day can really give them that time back.

0:17:50.3 VB: I love that because it doesn't have to be this whole big thing, just break it down. That's what we do for our kiddos.

0:17:56.1 CB: Exactly.

0:17:58.2 VB: We break it down. Yeah.

0:18:00.8 CB: Yes. And then integrating it across the subjects and using it throughout the day. So if they're being taught handwriting at the beginning of the day, well then we can do reminders throughout, like maybe when they're in math. Okay, well, let's write our name in cursive at the top of the paper.

0:18:18.8 VB: Yeah. Exactly right.

0:18:21.2 CB: And then science, well, let's write a sentence in cursive. It just can be infused throughout the day as they're going through their different subjects.

0:18:30.7 AS: Yeah. So seamlessly. So it'll be really interesting to see because this just came about like a mid-school year thing, and we don't really expect there to be huge changes this school year. We probably expect more changes next school year and hopefully, the school districts as they implement curriculum, they're really thinking about all of these ways to really integrate it seamlessly. And of course, making sure that we are including our special education students in this as well. Any last thoughts or suggestions if there's any district administrators or teachers listening in that are in that planning phase that you want to share with them?

0:19:12.5 CB: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is that professional learning. To provide that professional learning or professional development, because a lot of teachers out there, young teachers have not been taught cursive. And they're thinking this is, they're probably thinking, oh my goodness, this is huge. I have to teach my kids, my students how to write in cursive. I don't even write in cursive. So they're going to be learning along with the students for that first year. And that's why, working for Learning Without Tears, I love the fact that we do this vertical style and everything is right there in front of them to be able to understand how to do it. And so I think by having that professional learning and just having the teachers to really increase their knowledge and their skills in teaching cursive writing is going to be a great thing for them just to have that collaboration.

0:20:05.4 VB: Oh, absolutely. And I think that, of course, change is scary and when you haven't learned something yourself, but I think that you're missing an opportunity to really connect with the students in talking about, Hey, this is new for me too and this is what I did to prepare for it. And this just goes into our whole mantra for 2024 of professional development for the teachers. The districts need to be able to have this beforehand because otherwise it is panic and then you get a lot of pushback, but it's really fear that's in the driver's seat instead of preparation and knowing that it's not going to be perfect. So I think it's also a wonderful opportunity, a missed opportunity if teachers are just going to let fear drive. And it's a missed opportunity to really connect with your students to be able to say, first and foremost, Hey, I didn't learn this in school and now I get to learn it with you guys.

0:21:01.9 CB: Right. Right.

0:21:02.7 VB: And we hope that that perspective reigns because it would be wonderful.

0:21:08.2 CB: And I think they need to give themselves patience and grace as well, those teachers do. Definitely. And they can even get feedback from their students, Hey, what do you think about my writing? Do you think this looks okay? And go back and forth that way too.

0:21:24.6 VB: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it was an absolute pleasure. How can people reach out to you if they have more questions or if they want to learn more about the programming that you have? How can they reach out?

0:21:32.4 CB: Yes. Well, our website from Learning Without Tears is lwtears.com. So they can go on our website and they can contact us. We have sales representatives throughout the country that are there in their specific states that will be able to help them. We have free webinars and we have a podcast as well, Literacy Matters. And there are lots of different resources on our website that they can go to obtain.

0:22:03.4 VB: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being on, and listeners, we hope you enjoyed and we will talk to you next week. Bye.

0:22:12.0 AS: Bye.