Beth, For people who aren't familiar with lovely mass, humans aren't

familiar with you, give us an idea of.

What you are doing at the moment and maybe a little potted history of

how you got to this point right now.

Sure.

Okay.

So maybe we start with the history because that then makes

sense into what I'm doing now.

So I, the first thing I ever did with you guys was actually about six years

ago, and I don't know if you'll even remember, but I did not see myself

as a startup at that point at all.

Mm-hmm.

I was a freelance copywriter, single mom, working at home,

not really doing anything local.

My clients are pretty global sustainability.

so I used to watch what you're doing and think, oh, it sounds so amazing, but I

didn't really see that it was for me.

And sometimes I would sneak into things.

And then I think the first thing I did there after that was

happy pricing and I increased my copywriting rates at that point.

So that was very useful.

But then that gave me a taste really, and I. Started to get

a sense that I can do this.

There's something for me, and I do not want to be a freelance

copywriter for the rest of my life.

I don't think that's what I'm here for.

So I signed up to Vision 2020 at that point, without putting

myself under any pressure at all to come up with anything, then I,

I was almost stubborn about that.

I was saying, I'm not going to come up with anything.

It will happen when it happens.

So, went through the entire program, it was amazing, learnt loads, absorbed

it all, and then just waited really and listened, listened to life

and what was going on out there.

I think what Vision 2020 did give me was laid some self-belief in,

I am now ready to use my voice.

I, I had not written anything in my own voice at that

point, and I know that that's.

That's the same for quite a few people that do Vision 2020.

I think that's a big fear thing.

And when we do the, um, content challenge on LinkedIn, that

was transformative for me.

That was the first time I'd ever written in my voice rather than the voice of a

huge company or a CEO or someone else.

So it gave me the belief that I'm ready to do something and

then I just waited and listened.

And I think it was at, summer camp 2022 that I really felt what it

was that I have to contribute.

Um, I can't say I was happy about it really at the time.

I've got teenagers now.

I'm hearing a lot about what's going on out there in

the world with young people.

Huge amounts of anxiety and worry, and this rise in self-harm that.

The, the data is so outta date, but the data says at least 10% of

young people now have self-harmed.

And I'm hearing more about this from other parents in schools.

And I actually self-harmed myself when I was a teenager and I had

not told anyone about this, but I had done quite a lot of work on

myself and had quite clear opinions.

And I was actually really annoyed that it's got to this point

now where nothing seems to have changed in the way that that's

being talked about and dealt with.

And that's what, at least 25 years.

So I knew that I had things to say on that.

Um, and when I realized that, that was quite terrifying, to be honest,

I definitely had more than a little cry at summer camp about that.

' cause it just, it felt like a responsibility and something

that I knew I had to do.

And then began the journey.

So even the name, lovely, messy humans, and it's grown.

I'm not just working with young people in self-harm now, but the

name came from my conversations with young people because they were saying

the way they are spoken to about their mental health and especially

those who are self-harming was making them feel worse, not better.

So I tested all sorts of things and I was having conversations and

they hated some of the names I came up with, but that one they loved.

So I've really created the business that I'm now developing

through listening to other people.

So it's now become, I train schools and youth organizations and give talks

to parents and talk to young people all about emotional regulation, the nervous

system, human biology, because I.

The reasons that we are struggling are so grounded in that.

And then I talk about self-harm and this and what really is happening

and take as much of the fear and confusion away for people that I can.

So it's early days.

Feedback's great.

Every time I work with an organizational person, it evolves a bit more.

The thing that struck me, that stood out.

I think initially what I felt was this, this weight that you, I think I heard

you say it's like woo, and then the, then the like a real, the emotion around

it, the anger I heard, it's like why isn't something being done about it?

And then the, oh my God, is it up to me is what I heard.

It was like, shit, why, yeah.

Responsibility

is this now is that the responsibility, the idea of even talking about this

topic on LinkedIn to an audience that knows me for working in corporate

sustainability as well, how to do that without being over emotional and you

know, I have my way of communicating.

It's quite calm.

So navigating all of that.

I remember listening to a podcast, I can't remember who it was by,

but he talked about if you have something that could help a lot of

people, who does it make you, if you.

Keep that to yourself because you're too scared to do it.

And I was like, O

Yeah,

it was really, that's where as well, I had to do like loads of

groundwork to even be able to do it.

I was terrified of public speaking and that's where being part

of this community is amazing because yes, I think it's work

we have to do on the inside, but other people can help us do it.

So I've done public speaking training with Matt Madison, who's part of

the community and voice stuff with Kieran and all sorts of people.

So the help that we have here that can just help us put the groundwork

in before we are even ready.

I can now stand in front of a group of a hundred teachers and

I don't feel nervous and that just blows my mind a little bit.

It's a very different person to, I was, when I first knew

that I was gonna do this work,

I heard the term this morning vulnerability hangover than if

you've come across that, the idea of.

And it was Graham, you shared it after his big, sort of launched a new book and

a big publicity sort of, uh, campaign.

But this idea of the more you share your story, the more you just

have a bit of a crash afterwards.

I dunno if you found that initially when you start to

be more vulnerable in public.

You know what, I had some surprising things.

I had the CEO of a quite large food company message me and

say he was finding what I was doing, really inspiring.

So I thought those people would be going, what's Beth doing?

But you, you don't know how it's landing for people and how they're receiving it.

So that was interesting.

But yeah, the first time I ever talked about it and did a public

talk, I marketed it almost at a whisper because I didn't really

want anyone to come and I think I had five people and it was perfect.

Those tiny, tiny steps that each time.

Oh, I did that and I'm fine.

Now I can do a bit more.

And so I started very, very small.

yeah, I saw that post by Graham about vulnerability, hangover.

And the way it landed for me is this element of, and, and I know Graham has

a kind of a self-confessed introvert.

Certain levels that kind of, or ambivert, you could even say.

'cause he's happy to be on stage.

But also that kind of one-to-one reaction, reaction interaction can be a

bit much, he hates social media though.

He's like all over the place now.

but there's the, what I want to tie into here, this idea of kind of

self-awareness because I feel this is part of your work around system.

Uh, nervous system regulation, being aware of our bodies and how

we're interacting with the world.

Sensing into that.

And I like to go deeper into that because there is something around

the choices we make, the directions we go, the projects we take on,

and the boundaries we put in place.

Because part of, you know, with this whole weight of like, woo, this is

mine to do and this is a big thing, and there's, it could go and some

people can suddenly go, how do I scale?

How do I scale the impact aspect of it?

There's a also, I was wondering if you could speak to this awareness

of your own limits, the awareness of where you could overstretch yourself,

Yeah, so I mean, there's awareness of your own limits, just in terms of.

How ready am I even to stand up in front of people and be that

exposed, I suppose you could say.

So taking that gently, but then also awareness of my own limits in

terms of, I don't have a psychology degree and I'm not a therapist.

So that was then for me to find who am I, and be very, very honest about that.

But I also found some very open-minded and amazing professionals and sat down

with them and said, can I show you this?

And they almost validated and agreed of everything I was saying

and said, it's really important.

We need people to be sharing lived experience.

But I made sure to do it very responsibly.

And I, I also do it differently for different people as well.

So it's also around understanding what they're going through.

It's quite a triggering topic, so you can't just offload it without.

I thinking about that.

uh, so the, what the, the scenario I'm thinking and that's coming

over my head is like, there are so many people that need this help.

There is so much I could do to actually get this word out and champion this

mission, um, to support people, whether they are the young people self-harming,

or people who really struggle with just their nervous system and dealing

with the anxieties in the world.

I'm just spitballing here.

But also then you are a mom.

You got two kids.

You are on your own.

You still have to pay them mortgage.

We have to rent you can't just throw everything out the window

and suddenly go down this route.

How are you, you know, what, what's your, what's been your

experience of managing that?

My experience is I have had to go slow by necessity, so I'm still copywriting

let as soon as, and I see this with so many people, as soon as we are

worried about money, we're talking about the nervous system already.

Financial safety is a core human need in order us for us to feel safe and secure.

So if that feels threatened, we are not gonna be working at our best.

So I've gone very, very slowly because of that, for a start,

and that then has two sides.

On the one hand, it's a bit frustrating because I could

be doing so, so, so much more.

I know that on the new work, on the other hand, by going that slow, I've

had to listen and I've had time to change what I'm doing every single

time I learn something from someone.

So I am super confident that what I'm sharing is very good.

It's just, at some point I'm gonna have to take that leap and

it's coming closer and closer.

So yeah, it's a journey and it's around just tuning in all the time.

Where am I at?

But I, I'm almost grateful that I couldn't just leap in and

come up with the big business plan and just start doing it.

'cause I know it's gonna be so much better.

The word patience came to mind and that's something that

a lot of us struggle with.

Who, well, it sounds like you've got a comfortable relationship with it.

in terms of not, you said it from the start, really, even just with the idea.

You weren't trying to rush an idea out, vision 2020.

You weren't trying to force this out, but trusting that the right idea will

show up and this will evolve into something with the right tendering.

Yeah.

I suppose, I think pretty deeply about everything I'm doing.

And so it's been an opportunity to do that, to really test it,

to really get myself ready and to just keep getting that feedback.

but now it has, it is at a point now where it could help so many

more people than it is helping.

So I'm thinking about that.

I'm thinking, do I now create an ebook and send that to every school

I can as part of my marketing?

So I just give half of this information away for free because it's actually

so simple and it's not out there

actually.

That's, um, wondering now to this, for me, this idea of like, what's

the, what's the simplest, or not even the simplest, what's the

obvious next step and obvious, uh, di different levels or different aspects?

One is like it's needed, but two, I have capacity to do it.

Three, I have the skills to do it.

And so I'm hearing it's needed.

Uh, there is some capacity 'cause you're able to work with the copywriting and

then I assume fit this in with the, the mothering as well as the making money.

Uh, and you're a copywriter, you know how to write.

Yes.

And I don't particularly know how to create a business, scale

it and turn that into money.

And so that's where it's also around being very clear on where

I'm not clear and working with people who are, that's where I'm at.

I know the parts I'm good at, like this two years has transformed my view

of myself and what I'm capable of.

And I'm clear of where I also still need to just ask for help and support.

Yeah.

And I think that's the, um.

The challenge I think sometimes people have is they, they're not

necessarily clear and so they also don't ask for the right support.

For instance, sometimes there's, we remember, I remember this Lawrence, when

we were running our digital agency, you know, the first thing people would ask

about is that, how can I get funding?

How can I get funding?

Where can I get funding?

I need to get funding.

Where can I find a co-founder?

Or where can I find a co-founder?

He is like that co-founder and funding.

Those are two things that are really important.

Heck, co-founder a lot of the time.

'cause I need to build an app.

as opposed to like, I think some of the more fundamental things,

like who is it I'm helping?

How am I helping them?

What's really needed?

What's really wanted?

And then from there, knowing who is it that needs help, how they need

help, then what is it I can create?

And if I wanna create that thing, what support do I need to create that thing?

And then that's really clear.

I'm trying to do this, this is what's getting in my way.

Who can help me with that?

How does that, I dunno how that translates to your, where you are

at and what you've been doing.

Undoubtedly, the most valuable thing in terms of getting clear was

just getting out there and doing it and seeing people's reactions.

So I ran a two hour training the other day for the entire

staff of a boys school.

And I could see some of grown adults, men in particular, some having

like rea emotional reactions to some of what I was talking about.

I was talking about, um.

How we've evolved and how the world is so different now from what we

are biologically designed for and neurodiversity and things like that.

And some of someone emailed me afterwards and said, that was one of

the most amazing things I've heard.

It spoke to me so deeply he had him personally.

And when you get feedback like that, it's so invaluable.

But I wouldn't be getting that if I hadn't taken that risk and

started very small and listened like that at every stage.

So that's given me the clarity to get to a certain point.

And now it's about actually being humble and going, okay, I need help.

I know I've got something powerful.

How do I now get it out there?

And other people know how, how to help me get it out there better than I do.

I'll refer back to a book that we've talked to, talked about in the past.

It's like 10 x is better than two x. And I'm, I always refer to this 'cause

these, they talk about these four C's.

Um, people usually think they need clarity and competence or confidence.

So there's clarity and confidence in order to do the thing.

But Benjamin Hardy, the author, talks about commitment and courage.

Those are the two things you need when you do it.

You'll get the clarity and then you'll get the confidence.

'cause you start to build up this muscle of that.

I know what I'm doing.

So I'm hearing, well, I'm assuming commitment and courage were the first

two things that you were acquired.

And I just, from your perspective, where'd you find that?

Where Yeah.

Articulate, maybe share the sort of that, that idea of

the commitment and courage.

How, what, what was that for you and how did that work?

We've already talked about the commitment thing, like almost

the ethical responsibility of I actually have to do this.

so that was the motivation.

But then the courage, it really did come from being part of a community and going

slowly and having people supporting me.

And I even, um, I had to go and do some healing work myself on.

Some of my fear was actually a trauma response, so I went and worked on that.

And yeah, so it's not just about forcing ourselves, like jumping in

something huge and scary, it's, for me, it was about going slowly at

the pace I needed to go and each time that just built up the courage.

So we can be gentle as well.

And I think like, you know, compassionate with ourselves, especially

if we are talking about something that came from our own personal

struggles, I'd say that even more.

I love that.

And, and, and I want to, so I wanna acknowledge that in terms of

the counterpoint, again, looking back at our startup days is

like, fake it before you make it.

You know, just get out there and just pretend you know what

you're doing and, and just create the thing and you'll be fine.

How anxiety inducing that can be for some people because they're just waiting

to be found out and they're just waiting for the rug to be drawn, pulled from

under their feet and like, oh my God, everyone's gonna think I'm an idiot.

so that, for some people, be potentially really harmful and this will never

go there again because it's just like a, a traumatic experience.

And then there's what you are, I heard you talk about there is just like,

okay, being curious about the fear.

Where is that coming from?

So rather than judging it, like how can I understand where it's coming from?

So I. I'd like to hear also just more about your work now, you know, your

understanding of how these systems work and maybe in relation to this

story of understanding yourself.

Okay.

So in reply to that first part around the imposter syndrome, I guess you

were talking about the, the way I avoided that was just to be very, very

honest about who I am and how I've come to do this work and what I'm not.

So there is no imposter syndrome and what I actually found was that

people valued that more I stand out and different to the very many large

numbers of mental health professionals who are out there and it actually

gets me through the doorway easier.

So, um, what my first proper.

Big training opportunity with a school.

Started with a cup of coffee with one of the school counselors and then a meeting

with someone else, and then a meeting with their whole safeguarding team.

And then they asked me to train their entire staff.

So I just, I was super honest and it worked.

So that's one thing.

And then in terms of really getting under the bonnet of the fear, and

this is in the training I deliver now as well, understanding how we are

hardwired for survival and safety.

All of us, it's our biology.

that's what I'm nervous systems here for.

It's an internal operating system.

It's constantly looking for what, are we safe?

Are we okay?

Is there any threat out there?

And it remembers everything.

So all our early experiences, it is formed by our mental diet, what I

call the mental diet when I'm talking about young people, social media.

Everything we're taking in.

So even understanding what's going on in our brain, why was it that I would have

a full body fear reaction to standing up in front of people and talking.

That wasn't just nervousness, it was something else.

And it, it was my brain telling me that if I do that, I am not safe.

I don't know if I'll survive.

'cause it, it's a primi primitive reaction.

So by understanding that and then looking at how we can actually heal

that rewire the brain start to teach our nervous system that we can do it

and it's not a threat to our survival, that I have had to learn that in order

to have the courage to do this work.

And that is now all in the training that I deliver.

Because this rise that we are seeing in anxiety and self-harm among

young people is all to do with that.

They are basically, they found something that regulates the nervous system

and that calms them down temporarily.

And so I explained that from my own experience of it.

It's, it's temporarily effective.

It's not effective in the long term.

It leads to all sorts of fear and shame and pain.

So yeah, but seeing it exactly for what it is, which is an emotional

regulation, a strategy basically to manage our emotions and get

through stress and anxiety.

And I think adults have so many of those strategies, don't they?

It's young people have discovered this one.

So I take all the confusion away and look at it from that perspective.

What's going on in the body?

Endorphins, they're powerful and they're very involved in self-harm.

what I appreciate is you have this, um, understanding at a kind of a

scientific neurochemical level.

And what I know of you, there's also a very embodied experiential part of this

work that you are very, benefited from you practice, you help people with.

Are you able to just kind of, I don't know, a surface level or some kind

of easy level, just talk about this transition of this journey from a,

let's call it an unhelpful way to self-regulate, to a more helpful way to

self-regulate and any steps in between.

Is is that something you, you know, you've talked about, you think about?

Yeah, so in the context of what I'm talking to young people about, I look

at this cycle that is feeding into this rise in self-harm where I. There are

things we can do at every single stage.

This may be too complex for now, but let's have a go.

It always begins with thoughts, beliefs, what's actually going on?

How?

What are we doing?

What are we thinking that is triggering our nervous system

to feel that we are not safe?

That could be a thought, a belief, a behavior.

So number one is to start becoming aware of that which is known as consciousness

or whatever you want to call it.

But that's the starting point.

Then we need to look at what happens after that.

It leads to emotional suffering, so how can we alleviate that?

Have a conversation with someone, start to see our emotions as

helpful as messages that are there to tell us something rather

than things we need to push away.

There are all sorts of things we can do at that stage.

Then there are the tools that we can use once our nervous system is triggered

and we all respond differently.

So there's the people who fight, there's flight, there's freeze.

We are taught this in biology lessons at school.

We are not really taught it in terms of how does it affect my everyday

life, my relationships, my business.

But when we look at our own reactions and we start to get to know our own

nervous system, we can then look at the tools that we can use at that moment.

So that can be breathwork stuff, it can be shaking, all sorts of somatic things.

I've even started to build that into some of my training.

So getting everyone on their feet and having them all shake, that took

a bit of courage as well because I did not know how that was gonna go.

Um, and social media's amazing for this now as well.

There's, you can just access all this stuff.

I. If you know it's there, but a lot of people don't know it's there.

They don't even know we have the power to regulate our

emotions in all those ways.

Then I go into more depth on the actual self-harm.

Because what I realized when I was doing this work early stage was that

I was still ashamed that I did that.

No one had ever explained it to me in the way I'm now explaining

it, which takes the shame away.

It's not some weird, dark thing.

It actually makes total sense when you see what's going on in the body.

So I do that and I look at how can we help the young people now

not have to carry that around with them for their entire life?

'cause we need them to be, you know, stepping into who

they really are, don't we?

We need all of them to be having the biggest impact they can have.

well, I think the one bit there, I think hopefully is,

is, might be helpful for others.

This idea of there's the message, the information, the data, and

then there's how it's communicated.

So I'm say there's the message and there's the messenger.

And what I heard from you saying is like, there's information out there,

but it isn't communicated in a way that engages the people who need it.

And what you are able to do, or what you are on a mission to do

is how can I reach these people in the way they need to be reached

with this useful information?

Yeah.

Um, and I'm, I'm talking to anyone out there who feels that, oh.

It's all done, it's all been said.

It is all around, you know, what words of encouragement could you

give to someone like that who feels like, um, it's, it's not worth doing.

It's so easy to feel like that, especially if you're in something

like the happy startup community with everyone's, we are all

pretty well informed and there's self-awareness and everyone's learning.

But what I've seen is that we are in such a bubble.

So it's very easy to look on social media and think other

people already doing it.

They're not.

I mean, when I'm going into schools, this is new for

everyone from what I can see.

So to me it feels like it's really well known because of the

people I know and the people in my life, but it's not at all.

So bridging that gap, one of my things was how can I help to reach the masses?

Because I have had this, you know, 20 years of training almost with.

Big corporate companies joining all these dots and

talking about complex things.

I can do that now in any, on any topic.

So that's what I want to do.

So, yeah, I think there is always many, many more people that I'm

not aware of the things that we are talking about than people who are

the way I'd like to tell this story now is this, uh, reweaving of threads.

If I use this kind of, uh, an analogy of a tapestry, you get to a point

of life where you've just woven this tapestry and all the threads

are tied up into a certain way.

I can write, I'm a great copywriter, I know about science, and now I work with

corporates to do sustainability reports.

And what I know is unweaving that thought, I'm still great at copywriting,

I'm still understand science.

Mm-hmm.

And now I'm gonna reweave this to help these people because this is

this other thread that was dangling around that I'm, I wasn't aware of.

But now it's really important and I now wanna bring those together.

Yeah.

And not only the professional stuff, but the personal stuff, when I look at.

What I'm sharing now.

It's so cool that it brings in my zoology degree that I did years ago.

And then the stuff I've done with corporates, the communication,

my own journey along the way.

I did six years of therapy.

I then worked on a lot of somatic stuff, including with people in the community,

breath work, boxing, all sorts.

And I've trained in a technique called havening technique, which uses

touch to regulate the nervous system.

Gets us feeling so safe that we can then go and look at things that are

in our subconscious that we wouldn't normally have access to because our

mind would say, no, not going there.

So I've trained in that.

I don't, I have ideas of how I want to use that, but I'm not doing that yet.

That will happen when it's ready and it's exciting.

But yeah, the journey continues and what I've learned through.

Setting up lovely, messy humans has changed my life in ways way

broader than just business as well.

So it's all joined up and that makes it, it just feels so me and so authentic.

I didn't know that that was possible to do that.

I would say a couple of years ago, not even when I did Vision 2020.

I wanted to just bring in a couple of things that I've seen in the chat.

Um, uh, firstly, uh, Joanna was sharing, she'd be terrified of

going public with her hurt and how to help people with the same hurt.

Is there anything that you, I, without knowing the full context, Joanne,

apologies if this is too simplistic for you, but just, I dunno, Beth,

are there any words that you could share with her about that journey?

Um, I started with one-to-one conversations.

I, I was talking to.

Teenagers of friends who were self-harming.

And even that just gave me so much motivation and e just

hearing their reactions told me I was on the right path.

So starting that small, it doesn't have to be an event.

It doesn't have to be a talk.

It can literally be stuck by going for a coffee with some people

you feel very comfortable with.

Just like putting things into words is really powerful.

Just speaking things out loud that we've been holding in

within us is a powerful step.

Thank you.

Um, so another comment that came up before is, um, it

was around, it's from Claire.

Um, she's curious about how to manage transition, a transition

from full-time employment and be as, and being a busy single mom

to setting up her own startup.

Time is a roadblock for her.

She just doesn't assume that.

Yeah, just not having capacity.

Is there any experiences that you've had that might be of help?

I think a game changer has been my kids reaching teenager, to be honest

and becoming more independent.

So I feel really grateful to myself that I did so much of what

I could do while they were younger, but that wasn't, I wasn't doing

everything I could have done.

I was just, you have to manage everyone's needs, don't you?

Including your own.

So I almost did a lot of the foundational work while they were

young, and then as soon as they've got to this time when I've got more

time on my hands, boom, I'm ready.

and I've got a question from Harry who's actually doing

Vision 2020 at the moment.

uh, and he's curious about this, the experience of working on LinkedIn.

Basically the seven day content challenge will be coming up.

He wants to know a bit more about you and Do your experience of it.

I assume,

I mean, I found my terror at doing that actually quite hilarious.

'cause I will write things in the voice of a CEO of a multinational

corporation and they love it.

But to write things as Beth, no chance.

So, um, again, we've talked a bit about, I, I think like confidence.

And self-belief is a privilege and we don't all have it.

We don't all start with that.

We have to learn it somehow.

And a lot of people learn it as kids and some of us don't.

And I didn't, and I dunno if you guys remember, but I described afterwards

that that experience for me of doing that LinkedIn challenge was

like having a family cheering me on in a way that I didn't necessarily

experience when I was young.

And so it completed that growing up.

So really make the most of it because I don't think we get

that opportunity to, again, to be in this container of everyone

who's going through it together.

There's not gonna be any tumbleweed moments for any of our posts because

we're all supporting each other.

It was just so good for me and I think I actually wrote some, some

things that I wanted to get out for a long time, so I just went for it.

Not every day.

I don't know that I did every day just to like drop that one.

Sorry.

Every day.

Every day.

I think I

did every day.

But one,

um, on that, I think a topic I would say of growing

something in a nurturing space.

Um, I, I remember a lot of times in, in a previous business life where the,

the process of asking for feedback usually ended up people just giving

you loads of suggestions of how you could do things better or differently.

given your experience with lovely, messy humans, and you said that a soft, gentle

approach, what would you, you know, if you were going to help someone who is at

that stage as well, again, and you are gonna suggest to people who are wanting

to support someone at that stage.

What, what was your recommendation for the energy and the approach

of feedback or support?

Is there anything from your experience that you think,

please think about it this way?

Any suggestions?

Yeah.

I mean, my, my measure of success, and I'm not, I don't really go into detail

of these things, but on an intuitive level, my measure of success was never

what I said or how well I came across.

It was, oh my God, I did that.

Mm-hmm.

So, do you know what I mean?

Like just the step of doing something was the success.

It wasn't the detail.

And also really, I've really learned the power of it's who we are being

that matters so much more than what we actually do and what we actually say.

People still have to remind me of this, but the more I focus on what

am I actually gonna say and prep it all, it just doesn't go as well.

It's more about am I turning up comfortable?

Am I gonna be myself?

Am I in a good energy and will I connect with the people in front of me?

That's what matters.

Not have I got all the details right?

Are there typos in my LinkedIn post?

Whatever it is.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know.

I don't even get, I, I need to get better at getting feedback after

sessions, but at the moment I don't get, I don't ask for too much.

I think there's a different stage.

I feel I've discovered doing this work that the different

stages require different spaces.

and there is something around.

And the image that springs to mind is like, you've got just this little

shoot of a plant in your hands.

And you're just wanting to show it to someone.

And what you don't want is someone to go, Ooh, let me have a look at that.

Oh, it could be this big, it could be that big.

What?

And it suddenly it's like a, this is like really precious, and now you're,

you're be, you are manhandling it.

And I use that word I think specifically around this like very masculine energy

around, let's push it to the limit.

Mm-hmm.

because I remember in the early days there was, you were thinking about

going to leaders because around the work that you were doing, there's

something you, you identified that the way we lead isn't necessarily

helpful, particularly around sustainable thing, sustainability area.

And so.

Given there's this tendency, I believe, for us to push hard.

Do you have any thoughts and ideas of how to push soft or

push at all or what it means to lead in, in your perspective?

Do you have any thoughts around that?

I think range is important.

Sometimes we need to push hard and sometimes we need to go really

soft and I think we all, whoever we are, need that full range and

to use those at the right moments.

So with the havening technique that I've trained in, I think eventually

I will be using that in business because so often the decisions we

are making and the actions we are taking in business are not necessarily

coming from a healthy place.

They're coming from a trauma response or a belief that we've had that I

have to be, I have to succeed in order just to be valid or whatever it is.

So helping people to get.

Underneath that, and then look at how they would be in business without that.

I mean, when you think about the role of our nervous system and emotional

regulation in business, it's huge.

That is such an untapped area.

But again, I do think there's, it's about working on range.

Yeah.

I need, there needs to be the business pushy strategy stuff, and there needs

to be the very receptive, listening, tuned in, I don't know all the

answers, and I'm growing all the time.

And when you combine those two, that's like, wow, powerful.

But one on one on its own and the other on its own less.

So

there's like a right time, right energy, uh, and that.

For me speaks to, again, back to your work, is an awareness

of what is required right now.

and that isn't just a cognitive awareness.

It's like a, a, an energetic embodied physical awareness, which I would

pretty admit I didn't really believe in for a while, for a long time.

This is like, no, it's, it's about strateg.

It's about how it, how it, how you can understand it from a very

cognitive strategic planning way.

Does it make sense?

As opposed to does it feel right?

Yeah.

Does it feel right?

Trusting, like when it feels right.

Just trusting that what you are doing, every little step you're taking is going

to end up going in the right direction.

That's been huge for me.

I do not have a view of the destination, but as long as I fully.

Believe that each step I'm taking is the right one.

Great.

And I'm doing so many experiments along the way, even like what to wear.

Like who am I when I turn up?

I did one thing and I dressed like a teacher and then I did another thing and

I turned up pretty much in my gym kit.

And this, the gym kit was way better.

Definitely people liked me more.

what happens or from you, what's your perspective?

What's your opinion?

When it, it sounds right, it's, you know, the plan's, right?

But it feels wrong.

Get clear on why, what feels wrong, because sometimes it feels wrong and

you are right, your intuition is right.

And sometimes that feeling wrong could be a fear response to something

that it doesn't belong to now.

So.

I think that's really important to separate those two out.

So there's a skill of really being able to discern between what's

a, let's call it simplistically a trauma response or an inner knowing.

Yes.

And so if you say that's, it was the inner knowing, saying no, but

you still went forward with the plan, what is, from your opinion,

the potential downside of that?

I just think the energy will drop out.

So I've, I collaborate with people and it's been great.

And I'm also know that I want to do, I need to do this work in my

way, so I'm keeping hold of it.

Enough.

And that's, that was quite challenging for me because I've always been

quite organized around other people.

I think it's very easy to feel like, oh, I want to do this with someone.

It's safer.

But right now, yes, it's more powerful.

I work with Rose from start to conversation to deliver some

of the training that I do and other stuff I do on my own.

And so, yeah, just navigating that, tuning in.

Hmm.

It matters like trust, I, I trust my intuition more and more now, but that

is after I've got the stuff out the way that wasn't necessary intuition.

It was more like programming from the past.

I, I know personally, whenever, and I was chatting to Ruth about this earlier

on this other podcast, this idea of.

' cause she was saying something like, it was really pioneering,

pioneering you guys starting chapters.

Did you realize how pioneering it was?

And I said it didn't feel pioneering because it wasn't part of the plan.

We didn't have a plan.

It was very organic.

Like you Beth, this kind of rolling vision that unfolds based on people

you meet and connections that happen.

And so for me it's, I don't know, it feels like as soon as there's a thing

that I feel like I have to do because there's a plan tell, tells me to do

that, I personally just lose all energy.

That structure makes me feel very constrained.

And there's times when structure's helpful, but I think structure too

early, um, is I find constraining because it feels like we're trying to

force certainty for force certainty into something that actually

needs space to be a bit messy.

Back to the topic.

And I think that's where having a bit of a financial security base really comes

in because you are not just saying yes to things because it's a bit of money.

Mm. It just gives you that breathing space.

I think that's actually, that's a very good example there where it makes

sense, but it doesn't feel right.

Sometimes there will be a project, all right, that could really, you know,

help financially, but there's something about it that isn't quite right.

And so what I wanted to unpick there is sometimes it's a true gut feeling.

This isn't a right project for you, and sometimes it's just a fear of.

Expectations that you are carrying of being able to perform.

It's like, oh my God, it's so much money I'll never be able to, you know,

do the work because it's the pressure of that much money when in fact you

could do it with your eyes closed.

And it's just the fear of being judged or getting it wrong, which

you never will get it wrong.

was trying to really, uh, sort of pinpoint with that,

that ability to discern.

Is it a true knowing or is it something that's holding you back?

I

think, or maybe you're not ready.

Yeah,

I had meetings with schools one, one school felt amazing.

Yes, I definitely want to do this.

And another school, it was terrifying.

I was not ready for that.

And that was the right decision.

And my gut feeling knew it and it was really strong.

And this is where I be really, I'm really curious and what I think is

important about this nervous system regulation and understanding is that

ability, particularly for people who are so head driven, who will just cut

everything, any signal off from the neck downwards because they either don't

believe it or they judge it, what the impact that has on the quality of their

work, the benefit of the people that they're gonna serve, and also their

own physical and mental wellbeing.

All of that comes about because they ignore doing, or have judged doing

anything around this messy human part that people struggle with.

So, um, so there's something about being lovely and messy, uh, that

I think would benefit anyone.

Uh.

Whatever stage of business they're at, and whatever challenge or

struggle they're facing, because it isn't necessarily just about the

situation, it's about what's inside that's going on at the same time.

What's next?

Beth?

Where are you going?

Is there anything that's coming up for you?

What's the plan?

Yeah.

Don't ask me what the plan is.

You know what I'm, I mean the audience for what I'm doing is so huge.

So the plan is now I believe in it, stop hiding even more and get it out there.

So that's the na the plan come 2025.

I just need to get it out there.

Because I see the impact it has as soon as people real hear it and you

know, a 10 minute conversation totally reframes for people, something they've

been worried about and scared about and haven't known how to deal with.

So I now need to get that out to as many people as possible.

it's time to like step it up a bit.

And is this the, the potentially the ebook you're talking about?

Or do you have any other thoughts or e ideas, ebook,

social media.

I am not a natural social media person.

That's the another growth area.

Just getting out there and having conversations.

That's one thing I'm noticing as if I talk to someone, they

say, oh, we want this within 30 seconds, but if I send a load of

emails out, it's a bit different.

So actually it's about getting out there in the world instead of

sitting at home and writing a nice marketing plan of key messages and.

All of that.

So do

see got on TikTok?

No.

Is that part of your 20 fund five marketing plan?

I might pay my daughter to do that or something.

So the, the, the phrase that's coming to mind on the approach is how to

scale your impact without burning out how to reach more people, but in a way

that feels energetic and flow full.

I think where where's coming up for me is like there you can always get

suggestions of, oh, we did it this way.

You know, had hargraves signature workshop.

Do that, take it to all the communities and start building your audience that

way and bring it and then do a podcast.

'cause then you can use your, you know, people can download post everyone's

doing podcasts or start a substack.

'cause if we've got a Substack then you know, you get the

email address, all these things.

Um, but then there's what fits for you, what feels right for you.

That seems to be the key thing

there is.

But I also know I am still playing it safe.

Definitely.

So I need to just stop playing it safe and I would like to do that.

So Lawrence tell Beth what to do so she doesn't play it safe.

What would you suggest she do?

Uh.

Become a positive influencer on TikTok, where you share daily tips to teenage

girls, but probably their parents and probably their teachers and leaders too.

And yeah, I'm, I suppose I'm sitting with this curiosity of how

do you scale this and grow this 'cause there's so much need for it.

And also not lose sight of the original audience for this.

That's a question I'm sitting with.

'cause the idea of maybe you feel like you're hiding and also maybe

you could scale it too quick, is a, is a, is a challenge, I suppose.

Um, when there, when, when there's so much need for this everywhere.

Curious about that.

'cause again, when you think of social media or bring it out

there, like where do you go?

There's so many different routes, like said, so many channels,

so many people that need this.

I, and I have a pattern throughout my career of doing myself outta a job.

That's always the aim.

So once this information's out there, I won't need to do it anymore.

And then what else can I do?

That's really cool.

So I guess that should be my goal,

Yes.

And um, it's depending if you do yourself outta the job, 'cause you don't

want the responsibility of it anymore.

Because I think what's coming to mind is you have the, you have the

opportunity and the ability to educate people at a distance where you're

not, that you can write and you can present stuff information in a way.

And you know it in that well enough at a cognitive and an emotional level

to talk people's language so they can try and understand it for themselves.

And as I understand it, they will need some kind of support, a someone to look

up to, to connect with, not necessarily medical or like psychological, but

someone that they feel safe with.

And so there is, there seems to be something around that where

you can still be in the mission, but not necessarily having to do

yourself out of a job in a sense,

So that tad parras quote around when you've traveled a certain

terrain, you have wisdom to share with people who are at an earlier

stage of a similar journey.

But also I know that young people and you know, the, and young

adults who are struggling and going through what I'm going through,

they look at me and my life now and they're like, wow, that's possible.

I can be here where I am now and one day be there.

So it's not just a communication job as,

nice.

And there's something I'm coming away with.

You're relatable.

You know, you're talking about the gym kit versus the, the suit, the,

the way that people can open up to you when, when you're not the

expert, you are someone like them.

That feels the big thing here.

You're not the mental health expert telling them what they're doing wrong

or making them feel bad, but you're actually feeling like they're sharing,

you're sharing that journey with them.

Any, any final thoughts from you, Beth, before we close?

Just that I hope that's helped people who maybe even at a very, very early

stage have a hint of an idea that what they've been through or an experience

they've had could help others.

And they don't know how or when or where they're going to start

talking about that, but just it will happen when it's meant to happen.

I totally believe that as long as we focus on what the little

steps that we need to take next.

To keep growing, developing, getting rid of those fears and things that

are in the way it will happen.

And that might be in two years or 10 years.

And that's fine.

Well, I now know what needs to happen next for me lunch,

so thank you everyone.

Anyone

on the current cohort, please launch something by the end of the program.

Just ignore.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Doesn't we're on you now.

We're, we're gonna set Beth on you right.

That nervous system and get shit done.