Alex Harrison, LCSW (00:00)
someone presses up against a bruise that's already there, it hurts, but in a very different way,
different than creating the bruise in the first place.
Courtney (00:13)
Welcome back to Kids These Days, insights for every stage of child and family development. I'm Dr. Courtney Lynn, your host and founder of Integrated Behavioral Health. If you are a member of a step family, you know that the word step often carries a heavy weight. Between the Disney frameworks of evil step parents and the internal feeling that your family was born from a place of brokenness, it is incredibly easy to get stuck in a state of high alert.
We try to manage the dishes, the schedules and the different parenting styles, but we often forget to look at the human being right in front of us. Today, I am joined by a card carrying member of the bonus mom club and a brilliant clinical voice, Alex Harrison. Alex is a licensed clinical social worker who has spent the last 15 years helping couples and families navigate the messy middle of blending lives.
mode into a state of genuine connection and calm. the insider-outsider dynamic, that feeling of being either overlooked or ganged up on, and why the repartnering process feels like a redemptive joy for adults.
but often feels like a series of losses for our children. Alex, I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (01:29)
Hi Alex, how's it going?
Alex Harrison, LCSW (01:32)
Hey Courtney, I'm doing so well just ⁓ moving through the week with kids in school and routine and happy to be here talking to you today.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (01:42)
Yeah, it is nice to get back into a routine. Okay, well, you know, I am very passionate about this topic and excited to talk about all things step-parenting and couples and step-families. Can we just start though? I'm curious your thoughts. What do even think about the word step-parent?
Alex Harrison, LCSW (02:02)
I mean, you know,
it's kind of funny because at first when I became a step parent, I wanted to have like some kind of cuter name attached to it, like for my own ego reasons, right? And also because like the idea of being a step family, a second family, and next time family, which is another word that floats around there, which I think is bizarre. It like the psychology vernacular. Anyway, you know,
I look to the kids, to my step-sons to find out like, do you want to call me and how do you want to refer to me? And they absolutely wanted to call me by my first name and they absolutely just organically refer to me to their friends and teachers as their step-mom. So I think it's one of those things where it's like, look, you've to kind of let the organic flow of things take the lead and not try to change the names. So, you know, sometimes I like to call myself a bonus mom, which
I think sounds cute and lovely, but I recognize like my children will never call me that. I'm just their stepmom. I'm just Alex. Yeah.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (02:59)
Right, right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, it
is true. It's such a, I feel like it's a loaded term though that comes with so much, because I'm thinking, you know, I have step-parents. My mom is remarried, my dad is remarried, and there's so much more to me. Like both my step-mom and my step-dad, like I just think I have like four adults with.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (03:24)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (03:24)
Each of them have their own strengths. I would call my stepdad for something, my dad for something. It's just the more the merrier. But yeah, the word like step has this, I feel like connotation to it that can seem.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (03:37)
Well, I think especially if you're a step mom, I mean, we've got like entire
Disney frameworks built around evil step moms, right? So that's, that's hard to wrap our minds around. And also whether you're a step parent because you were divorced prior, or you're a step parent, parents coming into a family system that was born from divorce or the loss of a spouse. There's this like weird implication of like brokenness baked in.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (03:45)
Yes. Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (04:07)
You know, even though the family dynamic that you share can be full of joy and a lot of connectedness, there's like even the term itself has these implications of like grief, loss, and brokenness around it. And I think that's stuff that we all have to kind of hang and sit with. Although I think we overthink it much more than the kids involved do.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (04:22)
Yeah.
Right, right. And I know there's research like depending on the kid's age and the child's gender and all sorts of things when the stepparent comes in to their life, you know, it really can depend greatly their reaction to things.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (04:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and some stepchildren really do want to call their stepparent mom or dad. That's what they choose, or they choose a completely separate name on their own. And I think, again, like I said, letting kids kind of take the lead with what feels emotionally safe for them is really what it's about.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (04:48)
Right?
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Okay, well, can we talk about, I know you already kind of alluded to this in terms of loss and changes and everything, but what are two specific obstacles that you think make the step family journey different from a first time family or a biological family?
Alex Harrison, LCSW (05:21)
There are five core challenges that every step family faces But I'll talk about two of the biggest ones that I think I see the most with my clients and then also in my own step family dynamic So the first one we call the insider outsider dynamic and then the second one we'll say is really helping kids adjust to the reality of the losses and the grief process that they feel that's just inherently baked into
step family process. So if we go first to talking about inside or outside or dynamic, I guess I'll just kind of paint an example that sometimes that's the best way to illustrate. Let's say like it's a Saturday morning and I decide I want to check in with my partner around our plans for the weekend, right? The kids transitioned back to our house last night, let's say, so everyone's back, things are busy again, the rhythm has changed.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (05:49)
just step in the process.
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (06:13)
And I come to my husband and I'm proposing, you know, okay, I'd like for us to do some chores together and maybe we should go down to the trailhead and take a walk together with the kids. But he unbeknownst to me already had a whole conversation with his sons on the side, like on Friday, and they decided we're doing play dates and we're going to the pool. And by the way, my mom invited us over for dinner. So we're going over to mom's house for dinner tonight. Like, of course you're coming, right? So.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (06:40)
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (06:42)
All these plans were conceived totally separate from me, the step-parent, and that lump that I might be feeling in my throat right now, like that feeling that I've been overlooked from an entire conversation, that's me feeling like I'm in the stuck outsider position.
Right? Like the feeling that my partner and his kids exist in this system totally apart from me. Right? And like I said, you know, maybe he is going to adamantly express his desire that I and my children join. That of course we're all invited. Of course we're all supposed to be doing this together. Right? But you know,
That may be, but the pain point for me in that moment is that, you know, he doesn't default to me, his partner, as a key person to be included in decision making, you know? So I'm gonna likely feel overall alone and overlooked and disrespected and all that probably ends up looking on the surface like aggravated, to say the least, right? On the outside. Now,
Dr. Courtney Lynn (07:48)
Correct.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (07:52)
At the same time, my partner in this scenario, realizing that I'm feeling like hurt and frankly pissed, right? That he left me out of the conversation, he's now in the position of the stuck insider. That feeling that a parent has when they are torn between who do I take care of right now? Do I turn towards my partner right now and tend to, you know,
her feelings and her needs. If I do that, I'm turning away from the needs and feelings of my kids, then they're disappointed. Or do I turn primarily towards the needs and emotions of my kids right now? And then my partner feels left out and alone, right? Either way, I'm stuck, I'm pulled in different directions. The common experience of a stuck insider is like, I'm failing on all fronts all the time. I'm never really making anybody happy. You know what I mean?
Dr. Courtney Lynn (08:42)
Yeah.
Yes, ⁓ yeah.
You're weekly occurrence in our house. Yes, yes.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (08:48)
Yeah.
Yeah,
and this is especially hard, you know, depending on at what point a step parent enters the picture. You know, if you have had, you know, if the parent has had this parenting culture for years of single parenting and, know, he's making all the plans with his kids about what the weekend looks like, like that's the norm, right? And so that's a really big shift for the way that decisions get made to be, you know, realigned and aligned.
So it can create a pain point for the kids and it can create a pain point for the couple, right? So it sounds like that's a familiar a familiar feeling for you said
Dr. Courtney Lynn (09:27)
Yeah,
I was actually thinking too. Well, I was thinking two things. One, I also think a big difference would be if the family moved into their own new house or if the step-parent joined the house that the parent was in with their kids. I think that is a huge component of it for sure. Right.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (09:47)
that's huge, huge.
I think it is, you know, I feel like we, my particular step family formation, we had it easier in that in order for all six of us, my two kids and his two kids and us to all fit into a place, we had to move. And so we formed an hours house. Even then.
we've had our moments, right? The feeling of like, well, all his dishes are chipped and cracked and mismatched. I don't want those around. I want my dishes, the dishes that I like, right? But then his kids are like, where's our favorite cups? Where's the silverware? The old, ranky silverware that's all like eaten up from the garbage disposal, but that's the stuff they like, right? So it could create a lot of division. And I think it's especially hard for someone like a step-parent, especially a step-parent without their own kids.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (10:32)
Right.
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (10:41)
to move into
their partner's house and all of a sudden any decision that gets made about furniture and art on the walls or dishes like is suddenly very emotionally charged and if those really open
emotionally leveled out and regulated conversations aren't being had about like what does it actually look like to create a culture of ours, things can get very very stuck in that outsider insider feeling.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (11:15)
Right, right.
Yeah, when I remember, because I have the stepparent support group, the very first one.
I kind of talked about this insider-outsider dynamic and everyone, you know, no one had heard that term before or used that language, but it really does feel like it is a universal experience that step families go through in lots of different ways, right? Tangible things like the dishes all the way to making plans or, you know, whatever it is. And I feel like having that language of feeling like an outsider that stuck insider position is really helpful just to
name, this is what step families and step couples and this is what they go through.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (11:53)
you
Yep. Yeah. And whether you're stuck on the inside or feeling stuck on the outside, you feel that, you know, I don't have to tell, you know, step parents and pan parents repartnered too many details for them to inherently know like, I know exactly what that feels like in my body. I know that tightness in my chest. I know, I know that kind of nauseous feeling that I have that sense of overwhelmed like, yeah, I get it. Right.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (12:05)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
ahead. As you were saying that, was like, I need to ask my stepdad because I will say, I talk to my mom on the phone a lot, too much probably, and if I call and they're in the middle of dinner.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (12:31)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (12:37)
She answers. And now, you know, I'm either on speakerphone eating dinner with them or, you know, he goes and does something else, but she always enters the phone. They're driving in the car together. I have to ask him how he feels about that. Maybe he's okay with it. But I was thinking that's, you know, a definite perhaps an outsider or just shakes up the dynamic.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (13:00)
It does shake
up the dynamic and actually I'm kind glad you brought this up around this experience of like adult children in step families because this stuff happens all the time. I had a client not long ago that I was working with who has two grown sons and they're 20s and 30s and has been, you know, re-partnered with someone for the last five years and...
it's extremely hard for her when she feels him drop everything to attend to his adult kids. If his kids call in the middle of a weekend getaway that they're having, for example, big, big feelings, right? Yeah, suddenly like crashing dinner plans, like these very things can very, very much be a point of a lot of difficulty and pain. And from my client's perspective, it was like,
Dr. Courtney Lynn (13:44)
Thank
Alex Harrison, LCSW (13:53)
Why wouldn't you want me to connect with my kids? They don't live with us. We don't hear from them that often. If they call, of course I'm gonna answer. And from her perspective, was that place of, they're adults. They can handle a boundary of, can I call you in 20 minutes? We're in the middle of something. And it's that feeling of, and then for him, and this is a guy in his mid-60s, it is this very stressful pain.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (13:56)
Right.
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (14:23)
place of I'm never making anybody happy. Know what? I'm never doing enough. And that's a really hard place to be.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (14:27)
Yeah.
Right,
Right, and those wounds, I'm never doing enough, or from the outside of person, I'm not being chosen or prioritized, those things can run deep to childhood, you know? And being in a step family really brings it to the surface.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (14:49)
Absolutely. No, I think that's completely true, right? it's ⁓ when we get touched on, know, someone presses up against a bruise that's already there, it hurts, but in a very different way,
different than creating the bruise in the first place.
And I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, I think partnership and parenting always evokes our old baggage anyway. But I also think being part of a step family dynamic.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (15:10)
Yep. ⁓
Alex Harrison, LCSW (15:16)
those same types of attachment wounds and unresolved issues and baggage get bubbled up to the surface much more quickly and much more intensely because you haven't had the luxury of that.
just those just us seminal years where it's just you and your partner learning each other creating a couple culture knowing how to trust each other you are trying to build that while also attend to parenting so so much more complicated
Dr. Courtney Lynn (15:49)
Right, right.
yeah, for sure. You kind of started to talk about this one or touch on it, the loss. Yeah, I was thinking when you were talking about the adult children, how that is a loss even for adult children, right? And their parent having a partner later in life.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (16:01)
yeah.
Yes.
That happens all the time. mean, I think, so like I said, you know, speaking broadly first, what...
Couples, when they get together, tend to experience as a really joyful time, a really hopeful time. Sometimes it feels really redemptive, like, my gosh, I'm finally with this partner who gets me that I feel like connected and seen and in this place of intimacy for the first time in such a long time. What feels so positively experienced by the couple, all of the changes that come with that new formation of family tends to feel like a series of losses for kids, including
adult children. And I've talked to friends of mine whose parents have been divorced and are repartnered now that like my friends are in their 30s for example. And it's so funny like it's really common for kids even adult children to hold on to this kind of magical thinking that like I don't know like maybe one day my parents are going to get back together.
You know this like hope or will maybe they stay apart but we still get to carry on but they get along and we still get to carry on with this like cohesive formation and the repartnering of someone's parents really represents like the nail in the coffin of that dream that magical thinking that they're ever gonna get back together. So like that's a loss sometimes it's just kind of subconscious sometimes it's really overt and like obvious.
It also can represent loss for kids, both children, children and adult children around like the loss of the really special, like just us time that tends to come on the other side of a divorce, you know, like before a divorce.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (17:52)
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (17:57)
things can be really chaotic for kids. Parents are, there's a lot of conflict in the house, a lot of tension in the house, parents are really overwhelmed, and parenting and closeness with kids can sometimes take a backseat to just managing the day-to-day tension and conflict. And then for a lot of people, once the divorce actually happens, things calm down. Like, the time that I now get to spend with my mom when I go to her house,
is close and connected and we get all this quality time together and it feels so lovely, right? Even for adult children, all of a sudden it's like, now like me and my dad are going hiking and camping together again and we're taking vacations together and isn't this awesome? And now all of a sudden dad has found somebody new that he's crazy about and...
The vacation that we planned together to go to Mexico and hiking around, you know, together now includes Karen, the new girlfriend, right? And it's like, wait a second. I was not aware that like my relationship with my dad was going to be tossed into the air like this. was counting on something different. So that's a grief loss process for, like I said, both adult children and younger kids. And then sometimes, the amount of change that comes, you know, I mean,
Dr. Courtney Lynn (18:58)
Hi Karen.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (19:21)
My boys, my step-sons were in a house with their dad on the west side of Denver. They're now sharing a house with a teenage step-sister and an elementary school age step-sister who all have their preferences. My girls who were used to this very cozy condo environment with me on the east side of Denver where we like have dinner together and watch the office at night is now, they're like artists and readers and quiet.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (19:47)
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (19:51)
their life suddenly got totally upended by the presence of two toddlers in their life who are boys and are physical and are loud. You know? And so, you know...
Dr. Courtney Lynn (20:00)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (20:05)
Those kinds of changes just feel like losses to kids. And there are things that kids have to figure out a way to grieve. And then we have to figure out a way to acknowledge that that grief is real and that it's not a problem. And hang with them through it. Not just tell them to smile. Don't you want your mom to be happy?
Dr. Courtney Lynn (20:18)
Mm-hmm.
Right, right. Yeah,
it's funny. My step-sons always, because I lived by myself before moving in with them for like a decade. I lived by myself. I didn't have a TV at night. I would journal and like can't, like it was very calm. And so it's funny because they will often say like,
Alex Harrison, LCSW (20:33)
You
Dr. Courtney Lynn (20:44)
Do you miss going backpacking by yourself? They'll ask, do you miss this alone time? But even that was a grieving process. And I wouldn't change it for anything. It is really wonderful. But for step parents too, having that alone time with your kid and now having other kids in the home is a change. Or being alone and then now being in a house with people. Everyone is going through a grieving process.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (20:55)
Mm-hmm.
Oh, it's totally true.
mean, you for me, I had been parenting for 15 years already when I got remarried and my step sons came into the picture. So, and also, like I said, I was parenting girls who were like not really limit testers, like pretty mellow, not a lot of conflict. You know, they were asked to do quite a bit. You know, I had like a high level of expectation for them in terms of like responsibilities and they never
up a fight. So you know it was a thing and it still is a thing that I grieve sometimes. I love the richness of the life that I have with these four kids and it is far more complex because ⁓
Dr. Courtney Lynn (21:42)
Wait.
Yes.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (21:57)
My bandwidth and energy also gets shared with two boys that have like a higher level of logistical need and that also comes with all of this having to have a lot of ongoing conversations with my partner around how to parent these kids, what this one's needing, what that one is needing, how those things are very different from one another and how do we actually like figure out
Dr. Courtney Lynn (22:19)
Right? Right.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (22:25)
how to meet everybody's needs while still nurturing our relationship together, right? It's just like there's no simple story anymore, right? And that's something to grieve.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (22:31)
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
For sure. That made me think of two things. One of them, as you were saying, you know, it is interesting thinking about your situation too, because you're...
a stuck insider and an outsider, depending on kind of which, depending on the situation, right? So you're, I imagine, feeling all sorts of feelings. And then when you brought up like the couple relationship in the end, maybe we can touch on, you know, the importance of the parent and their children, like maintaining that connection and how oftentimes that is, you know, part of the foundation is that parent-tile connection and not a step-parent
Alex Harrison, LCSW (22:48)
depending on the situation.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (23:14)
and now being the one who's doing discipline and setting boundaries and all of these things in a harsh way that can sometimes not go well.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (23:24)
Well, that's an understatement, right? I mean, I think it is kind of a minefield. mean, I think that people can... people who are really thoughtful...
Dr. Courtney Lynn (23:27)
Right, right. Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (23:40)
will have some of these conversations ahead of actually blending their households together around like, where do you want me to step in? Where do you want me to just support? Where do I expect that you'll step in and be a part of something in terms of discipline and structure? Where do I not want that? Even if you've had some of those thoughtful conversations, so many of those conversations take place in like the vacuum of the hypothetical, right? It's not the actual reality.
of what's going on and it requires so much like you learn by messing up. learn by goofing. learn by and by messing up and goofing. mean like having rupture rupture between stepkids and stepkids parents, parent partners and stepparent partners and and on and on. Right? So I think what I
Dr. Courtney Lynn (24:30)
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (24:33)
What I do tend to see a lot in my practice and working with step families and then again, of course, within my own dynamic is that, you end up with what is the research tells us is actually like pretty universal. There's a pattern that happens over and over again and it's this.
Biological parents want their step-parent partner to be leading with more warmth and connection and gentleness when it comes to their children. And step-parent partners universally want their parent partner to be parenting from a place of more structure and consequences and discipline.
So it inevitably drives partners into a place of like polarization. Right. And I'll actually give you a personal example of this one. that feels okay. ⁓
Dr. Courtney Lynn (25:17)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Okay, okay, yep, yes.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (25:34)
So this was a few years ago. my husband was out running errands. I don't know. was like Pinewood Derby time for Boy Scouts and he had to go get wood and supplies and stuff like that. Anyway, so I'm home with my girls and also my two step sons, which were probably if this was like six and eight at the time and the eight year old wanted to do a big art project. have a art room in our laundry room that we've kind of retrofitted so they can do crafts and stuff and go to town.
I'm like, of course use all the paints you want but you have to clean it all up before you move on to another activity. That was the agreement that we made together, right? So of course like lots of eight-year-olds do, he abandons his art project after like 20 minutes and then he's in front of the TV, which is where he wants to be now. So I go down, I find him in front of the TV, I direct him to go back over and clean up his
Dr. Courtney Lynn (26:15)
Yeah.
Yep.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (26:32)
mess like we agreed to, he starts to raise protests, and of course my husband arrives home from running his errands at this very moment, right? Yeah, perfect timing. And he...
Dr. Courtney Lynn (26:40)
⁓ Yeah, great timing, great timing.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (26:45)
intervenes in two ways that I find extremely annoying. Number one, it's, my gosh, your artwork's so amazing and so brilliant and da-da-da-da-da-da-da. So all the energy goes there. Don't worry about cleaning up right now. Just enjoy your TV. You can come back to that later.
And I'm like, wait a second. Now we are in conflict in front of a child because, I'm arguing my case. I'm like, look, we had a very clear agreement, didn't we? And of course I'm bringing the child into it. Big mistake. Uh, and I'm feeling like my husband's completely undermining my step parenting. Right. so we've got like an insider outsider dynamic working here, right? Where suddenly I feel like he's sided with his child and he's caught
Dr. Courtney Lynn (27:02)
you
Alex Harrison, LCSW (27:31)
in between. He knows that I'm upset now. But there is also this big argument around philosophy, right? You know, and this is a place again, where parents and step parents get pulled into polarizing places. You know, I have this position that, you know, kids need age appropriate responsibilities. And I want my eight year old stepson to learn to clean up the messes he creates, right? I really want him to learn how to do this now while stakes are
Dr. Courtney Lynn (27:38)
There you go.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (28:01)
low when it's just acrylic paint and not a car that got into a minor accident, right? His dad...
On the other hand, feels very differently about parenting from around responsibility for an eight year old. For him, it's like, look, he's just going to do a crummy job of cleaning it up. There's going to end up being paint on the floor. I'm going to help him with it anyway. Let's be honest. Also, my husband's pretty conflict diverse and, also this is super common. Like so many parents, especially parents who are parenting their kids only half time, man, like
We don't want that 50 % of the time that we're actually parenting our kids to be full of conflict and a bunch of discipline and consequences. So it's so easy and so calm and for parents to then take the path of least resistance of like, let's just not worry about it. Let's just go with the flow, you know? And then they say things that have been said to me and I know have been said to many, many, many a parent and step-parent in these family formations. Why can't you just relax?
Why can't you just let it go? Right? But it churns up nothing but resentment for me. Right? So, you know, the skill for us, which we have had to learn and have been called into and continue to be called into learning and practicing is,
Dr. Courtney Lynn (29:10)
Yeah, yeah, it's my idea. It's It's fun.
Right. Right.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (29:30)
talking about parenting values and our parenting styles and where they converge and then diverge, but especially learning to have these conversations outside of the moments of conflict. We have to figure out how to accept one another's influence and open up because if we don't, it's just going to create a lot of distance between us as partners and ultimately it's going to keep
Dr. Courtney Lynn (29:44)
Right. Right.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (30:00)
us from enjoying what could actually be the benefit of co-parenting as a team and what benefit the kids can receive from that, you know?
Dr. Courtney Lynn (30:08)
Right.
Yes,
yep. I'm thinking of like that negative cycle, right, that we can get caught in. And as you were saying, I'm like, I know that feeling of like powerlessness of I can't say anything right now, or I feel like this is so out of my control. right, identifying and even sharing those underlying fears with each other, right? Maybe, you know, the
Insider parent is fearful that their kids aren't gonna like being at their house anymore. The step parent is fearful of if they don't learn these things, they're never going to move out on their own and they're going to be here forever. Like there's, those are maybe the things that are going on underneath, but what comes out, I know for me, I act like a teenager and I say in my head,
If you're not gonna put your dishes in the sink, me neither. And when my partner's out of town, I really have to gather myself, right? Like my stepson's do a great job. They all put their dishes in the sink. It's not like there's dishes all around the house. But I also don't wanna put the dishes on the dishwasher and I will just let them build up until I can tap into my adult brain. And I'm like, put dishes in the dishwasher. Put the dishes in the dishwasher, Courtney. But again, right? Like what comes out on the surface is me acting like
Alex Harrison, LCSW (31:00)
Right?
Totally.
Freak.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (31:27)
another teenager, but there's all of those fears and everything that are really driving the cycle with our partner.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (31:33)
Totally. No,
I think that's absolutely true. And figuring out a way to come to our partner from that relational place, from not being like boundaryless and just exploding on our partner or our step kids, because that can happen too, or getting really passive aggressive and just be like, you know what, fine, I'm out. I'm going to run errands or like, I won't be cooking dinner tonight. You can figure that out. Or I won't be putting away my dishes. Yeah. Figure it out. Right? Like none of that equals
Dr. Courtney Lynn (31:50)
Thank
Alex Harrison, LCSW (32:01)
like being respecting yourself while also respecting each other. Passive aggressive is not the way, man, I think, and I think what you're speaking to, like this awareness of like, I don't like this part of myself that's showing up, but here it is showing up. I think it's a very humbling experience to feel like whatever adult maturity and work that I feel like I've done.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (32:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (32:27)
All of that just gets really, really tested in these like really pressurized emotional places where the desire to self-protect or protect our kids really wins out in the moment.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (32:42)
Right, right. Yeah,
it's true. It's true for both sides. I'm curious, you know, when this negative cycle really gets ingrained in, you know, step couples, especially, what you would say the, like, how do we start undoing some of those things?
Alex Harrison, LCSW (33:02)
Yeah,
yeah. mean, I think a couple things. mean, ideally, I think couples start to learn to call each other into sincere conversations. But if that's hard to do on your own,
then I think that's a really great time to start utilizing a third party to help either a therapist that's really trained in step family dynamics or a step family coach who is also niched and specialized into really understanding why these dynamics are complicated and why they need like a different approach. Cause I think the difficult part can be like if you start, for example, trying to do a bunch of work on your own and you know, reading a conventional
marriage therapy book or going to a therapist that talks about conventional marriage from that like first time partner perspective, you're really going to get a picture of working out these problems that is probably not sustainable in the way that you're hoping. know? ⁓ So again, I think the idea of like,
learning tools. It's always like, it's always a both and right? It's learning how to self-regulate, figuring out like, when do I need to like take a really deep breath? Maybe I do need to exit stage left for a little while and calm myself down. And then learning to come to my partner from a place of low emotional intensity.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (34:14)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (34:31)
⁓ where I'm speaking to what's bothering me, how I'm feeling, and also like making a real request. I think, and I see this, this is a problem that I think comes up whether you're...
you know, repartnered or whether you know, you're married for the first time and there's no step family dynamic. Couples often get into this place where I will hear them just fire complaint at each other endlessly. And there's no request attached to it whatsoever. It's just complaint, which
Dr. Courtney Lynn (35:00)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (35:02)
is tough because I think it leaves your partner in a place of feeling hopeless because they don't have a working point to move forward. And so it's much easier for defensiveness to just take the lead. So I think being able to say, for example, like around the anecdote that I shared around parenting conflict.
Figuring out like the art of the circle back. I'm a big fan Giving yourself time to actually think through what is it? That's really bothering me. And what am I really asking for? You know, I being able to come to my husband and say like, you know, look I did my best in the moment to be a stepparent in the situation while you weren't here What I'm asking is that moving forward?
Dr. Courtney Lynn (35:31)
Yeah, yes.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (35:53)
please have my back in the moment and then we can talk about this philosophy that we clearly disagree on. Like how do we actually want to meet in the middle about this going forward?
And you make the ask and the answer on the other side might be like, yep, you're right. I can do that. Or it might be like, Nope, I can't commit to that. I'm going to side with my kid in the moment and then you and I can work it out. That's going to sting like hell. And that doesn't mean the conversation's over. It means that now we have to have a different kind of conversation around, you know, parenting values, for example. Yeah.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (36:18)
Yes.
Yeah, right. There's
so many things, you know, that I feel like come up and to your point that are so different than a first time family, right? And having someone, a therapist, a coach, et cetera, that really understands the dynamics is really important because some of those things like the couple's relationship always comes first.
That doesn't necessarily work in a step family and just keeps the conflict going. like, you know, I've heard, I'm curious your thoughts, know, step parents, they also need to be respected and should be able to set boundaries and discipline the step kids. That would not work in our house at all. No, it doesn't work for people. Right. Right.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (36:56)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
It doesn't, it doesn't work for, it doesn't work for most dynamics, right? At the
same time, neither does a, my kids come first always, all the time, a hundred percent forever and ever amen. That's also a recipe for a failed next time marriage, right? I mean, that's like, if you want your kids to come first a hundred percent of the time, all the time, don't get repartnered. Don't do it because no, you know, I think like that's one of the most painful things that I hear from like, this happens a lot, I think with women.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (37:23)
Yes.
Yeah, you don't need a relationship.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (37:43)
stepmoms that come in who especially who don't have kids of their own, when they express feeling that stuck outsider position, people have the nerve to be like, well, you knew what you were signing up for. You moved into his house with his kids and like, you knew it was going to be his way. And it's like, wait a second, who said that was going to be the case that just because I'm moving into another family system doesn't mean that like my desire to influence a household culture.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (37:54)
No, yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (38:13)
suddenly doesn't count. That's not how it works. Yeah.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (38:14)
Right, and that way you just have to be passive. and just
go with the flow of, like you said earlier, like that, yeah, there has to be some sort of balance between those two things. And I will also say it takes time. Like I'm even thinking back through our journey. We now can like go and do something, go see a show or whatever. We live downtown, so we can walk and go and see a show.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (38:25)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
a lot of time.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (38:38)
in the beginning, just us leaving and leaving everyone to fend for themselves. But now, right. No, hard for them to pull away. Yeah, and I think now, know, those things just take time. And I think from the, you know, insider parent perspective, of course you wanna, you know, protect your kids and make sure that your kids are feeling seen and heard and happy and all of that.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (38:43)
Like it was hard for him to pull away or the kids were just too young.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I mean I think it's the idea
Patricia Pappernout is one of their researchers and she's my professional mentor as well. We talk about these issues all the time and she creates this lovely imagery that I find both painful but also like painfully accurate. She describes that like trying to decide like who comes first, is it the marriage or the partnership first or the kids first? It's actually both upheld at the same time a lot.
And she describes this image of like a gymnast holding to the rings, right? Just having to balance and it's like, you have to give equal tension to both. If you suddenly let one go, you're gonna fall, right? And so I think, you know, when I say that to families and I try to say it judiciously and time it right, because it can sound really overwhelming, especially to the parent partner who is the stuck insider, right? And it's like,
Dr. Courtney Lynn (39:38)
Exactly.
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (40:07)
God I feel so pulled and it's like yeah you do because you are. Right? And I think that when you talk about like how do couples move forward with that tension there's also this balance between troubleshooting the places that we can troubleshoot to ease each other's burdens right and work more collectively as a team and take care of ourselves and also the kids. But
Dr. Courtney Lynn (40:11)
You are, right? You are.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (40:37)
There's also this piece of sometimes when you can't necessarily make a fix, the work of a couple is just learning how to see each other, like truly meet each other in the moment and give that partner the acknowledgement that like, I see you in the outsider position, you know?
See you in your stuck insider position. I see how hard it is for you to discipline the kids or hold a boundary Knowing that they're gonna be disappointed, but it upholds you and me right now, right? Or for example like this happens like not infrequently these days My boys are older. They're eight and ten and they're in a very like obsessed with sports trivia type of place. So
Dr. Courtney Lynn (41:29)
Okay.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (41:30)
If we've got
the girls home, it balances out dinner conversation because we'll talk about anything and everything. But if it's just me and it's like basically like the sausage fast of the eight year old, 10 year old and my husband, they just want to talk nonstop, especially my ADHD eight year old, like about these like specialized things they're super into. you know, we can, I have
I did collect some baseball cards in the early 90s, but I got to tell you, I don't know them all. So at a certain point I'm on the outside. They are deeply engrossed after I like put forth a lovely dinner, made the table, sat everybody down. And now it's like, I might as well kind of not be there. And there are these moments where like, instead of me getting pissy and trying to change the subject and telling them they're being selfish for wanting to only talk about Barry Bonds for 20 minutes, like ...
Dr. Courtney Lynn (41:56)
you
Alex Harrison, LCSW (42:24)
my husband will kind of look at me and he'll just like touch me under the table with his foot. Cause it's like, yeah, girl, you're in it with us. And I know that it doesn't feel amazing, but like we'll regroup later. It's that piece of sometimes I just need a little bit of acknowledgement or a little bit of comfort to know like, see you in your spot. I'm not going to let you be alone here long. I'm coming back for you.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (42:32)
Right.
right.
Yes.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (42:49)
You know, like that
is a big piece of like upholding the partnership, but not necessarily in the way that's like completely turning away from my kids at the same time.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (43:00)
Right, right, and I, know, even when we were talking in the beginning, I was thinking that is such a crucial part of it, is being able to see the other person and understand their perspective too, right? If the kids wanna talk about.
this fun time that they had, you know, 10 years ago before the stepparent existed. It's like, of course the parent wants to relive these happy memories and talk about the fun time that they had. While also, like you said, giving a nod or acknowledging like, I know that you weren't there and I see you and we can regroup about this later and vice versa. It's just so helpful to not be in that reactive place of what we see on the surface, you know, getting
Alex Harrison, LCSW (43:23)
Guess.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (43:47)
up from the table, walking away, shutting down completely, etc. And just being able to give the look, like, okay, I know that the thing is happening and we'll be able to regroup with it.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (43:51)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I also think like part of there is troubleshooting to be done there, right? Because, you know, I do think that bio parents can get themselves in these positions. This is pivoting a little bit here where they're kind of like inadvertently reinforcing that insider, outsider dynamic.
So, you know, for example, it's like, you know, if you are, I mean, I guess I could kind of speak into a situation that's more like age similar to where you're parenting from. You know, I think your, your partner was parenting for a long time because he has older kids, right? Before you came into the picture. So yeah, there's like a mountain of memories there.
And it totally makes, like two things are true. It totally makes sense that the kids wanna have nostalgic moments rehashing the great vacations we've taken together. And my partner can also be mindful of my outsider status by being thoughtful after we've talked about our vacations. Like, what were your favorite kid vacations growing up?
Dr. Courtney Lynn (44:59)
Yes.
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (45:01)
You know, it's the idea of like, I'm thoughtfully bringing my partner in, not in this insecure way, but in like, at the end of the day, just a relational way, right? Because we're also trying to model what it's like to like live in a community and, and in an age where like individualism and individual experience means so much and gets really, really emphasized. How do we make sure that kids are modeled? You know what it's like to.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (45:16)
Yes.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (45:29)
Remember that their experience is not the only experience in the room, right? So it's not just about taking care of each other and I think like one of the things that I work with a lot of couples on is like if we took if we got away from the personalization and the emotionality of insider outsider stuff and just talked about like
How do we want a parent from the place of cultivating certain sets of values and character traits in our kids? Suddenly it becomes a lot less emotionally charged and just makes a lot more practical sense of like, of course we should ask Courtney what her vacations were like as a kid. Right.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (46:04)
Right, right. It's just kind. It's just
how it is, what you would do in a conversation. I'm thinking, and I know we've discussed this before, which maybe we can wrap up with this, is we've looked at Facebook groups. I know I have been in step-parenting Facebook groups and all the things, and it is the wild west in there, like crazy things, know, step-parents are...
Alex Harrison, LCSW (46:28)
As in like, grim.
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (46:30)
Yeah, yeah, where I'm like, what is happening? But
even as we're having this conversation, obviously both of us are therapists. Both of us, like, you know, can do deeper work and tap into what our fears are and things. It takes a lot.
of emotion regulation and communication with your partner and slowing things down and not being so reactive to really work through some of these things. It's a lot of work.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (47:00)
It's a lot of work.
I mean, think partnering and parenting is a lot of work, but the step family dynamic is also a lot of work. my takeaway from a lot of the, Facebook pages and groups in particular is, and my heart kind of breaks when I see it, I can just see like, wow, there were just a lot of conversations that weren't happening on the.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (47:02)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (47:24)
on the beginning and of this relationship and the blending process. And a lot of we were riding on like the hope that things are just going to naturally flow in the right direction. And then I can just see this like kind of feeling of just like betrayal.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (47:42)
Yeah.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (47:42)
you know,
betrayal, especially from, from women of like, I really thought my partner was going to come through and see me in my needs. And that is not the case. And figuring out like, how can I start to without passive aggressiveness and without just jumping ship or getting really overt and you know, going low. In other words, like, how can I bring this stuff to my partner in a way that my partner can hear? And also like, how can I with respect,
call my partner into more relational responsibility, you know?
Dr. Courtney Lynn (48:18)
Yeah,
yeah. What is, what would you say? One message of hope for step parents out there listening or I don't know, even for adults who have step parents, either one. Yeah, a message of hope because like we're saying, it is a lot and can be, you know, overwhelming and we might want to jump ship or go low or be passive. We want to do all these things. Yeah. What is one message of hope you have?
Alex Harrison, LCSW (48:41)
Yeah,
I would say overall, the only thing that is really certain is how much family dynamics change over time, including a step family, right? Like step families, like all families are these living, breathing things. So there is always room for things to change over time. And, very, very typically like, you know,
It's never one person. It's always a both and when it comes to partnership, whether you're repartner or not. And so if you are changing the way that you show up in your step family dynamic, whether it's the way that you're talking and approaching your step kids or whether it's the way you're talking to and approaching your partner, if you change the moves in the dance, your partner is going to have to respond.
right with some kind of a different move and it may not be perfect but like there's just so much room for potential and I will say more specifically to step families it takes step families on average and this is like in the research which to me is actually like really hopeful I think some people see this and feel kind of hopeless about it but this is like
Dr. Courtney Lynn (49:50)
Same.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (49:55)
On the low end, it takes about three years for a step family to actually feel cohesive and find a groove. On the more high end of the bell curve of normal, seven years. So three to seven years for a step family to really find their footing and start to feel like a more cohesive unit where people are connected and they're finding a groove. if you are inside of that seven years, hang in there because
Dr. Courtney Lynn (50:08)
Mm-hmm.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (50:25)
you're still in what is considered very much like the norm of big transitions. And by that we mean like struggle,
right?
Dr. Courtney Lynn (50:32)
Right. Tumultuous times. You're in the tumultuous time. No, I
love that. That the only thing we can expect is change. It will continue to change and evolve and to hang in there. And I think that resonates, right? One of the general messages of the podcast is that we don't have to be perfect to be good parents or good stepparents. And it's going to be messy. And I think even knowing that like three to seven time frame, years time frame kind of, yeah, it gives us that permission that it's going to
Alex Harrison, LCSW (50:49)
No.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (51:02)
It's not going to be perfect and you know this happy happy blended time. It'll be messy.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (51:09)
Yes, and that messy, even in the mess, you can find an awful lot of meaning in fullness.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (51:16)
yeah,
right, Yes. Well, I appreciate having you on the show. This was such a wonderful conversation. And I know there's a lot more to talk about in terms of step families, but I appreciate our deep dive into the insider-outsider dynamic.
Alex Harrison, LCSW (51:25)
It's been great to chat.
Always.
Yeah, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks so much, Kourtney.
Dr. Courtney Lynn (51:37)
Yes, thank you.
Courtney (51:40)
My biggest takeaway from Alex today is that image of the gymnast on the rings. As parents and step parents, we are constantly being pulled in different directions, trying to decide who comes first, the marriage or the kids. But the truth is we have to hold both with equal tension. If we let one go, the whole system falls. Whether you are a stuck insider feeling like you're failing on all fronts or a stuck outsider feeling like you're being overlooked,
Remember that the only certainty in family life is change. If you change the moves and the dance, the rest of the family has to respond. And if you're currently in the middle of a tumultuous transition, hold on to Alex's timeline. It takes three to seven years to find a real groove.
If you are in that window, have compassion for your human being self. To learn more about Alex's step-family coaching or her clinical work, check the show notes for all the links. Thank you for listening to Kids These Days. Remember, You don't have to be perfect to be a great parent. We are all learning about how to raise kids these days.