DJ Sir Daniel: and welcome back to another episode of Queue Points podcast.
I am DJ Sir Daniel.
Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government
as Johnnie Ray Kornegay the third and Sir Daniel time flies.
We are back in the holiday season, the holiday spirit, sir.
DJ Sir Daniel: Absolutely.
It's that time of year.
Go ahead and double fist that hot cup of cocoa that you have right now.
And just cozy on up to another episode of Queue Points podcast because Jay
Ray after years, and I do mean years, like especially for me after years of
experiencing the holidays and You know, all the stuff that comes along with it.
Does Christmas music still give you, you know, the warm fuzzies?
And does it, you know, make you feel holly and jolly still?
Cause I'm trying to think, does that still do it for me?
How about you?
Jay Ray: So the short answer to your question is yes, but I feel like I
need to explain for because I was too cool for school for like a long
time, I would say things like, I'm not really into holiday music, right?
That was a lie.
think what think what soured me to holiday music is as a person who
worked in retail for many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many years.
DJ Sir Daniel: Talk about it.
Jay Ray: In November, actually it was, so back then it was like November,
like you could time it, one, all of a sudden the dang Beatles started playing
and would hear holiday music all day.
ad nauseum an entire month, uh, the entire two months.
So it was like November to December.
so I think I internalized that experience with, I don't like holiday music.
I do like holiday music and it does still give me the warm and fuzzies.
But I think what's interesting about it, Sir Daniel is I
still like the classics, man.
The classics still do it for me.
I can listen to them classics every day, all the time.
Don't matter.
Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel: had a chokehold specifically on the black community
since they dropped, um, last century, cause it's been, it's been a whole
nother century since these songs dropped, but they've been recycled.
They've been covered.
They've been, you know, fizzed up for new generations.
The originals still hold, hold a magic over us the years.
And I'm talking about, of course, the Christmas song by Nat King Cole and
this Christmas by Donnie Hathaway.
And Jay Ray, since, uh, well, what is that hold that it has
over us in the black community?
Those two songs in particular, I have my, I have some theories around it, but
you know, and you know me, I'm a, I guess I'm a theorist over here on Queue Points,
but I want to hear, you know, your take on why these two songs in particular
kind of have a choke hold on us.
Jay Ray: Hmm.
That is a really interesting question.
So what's interesting about the Christmas song?
First and foremost, it was written by Robert Wells and Mel Tormé.
Um, but of course, made famous by Nat King Cole.
Um, and I think that song has a chokehold on our community because one, it was,
um, It was a song by a black artist released at a time when black artists
didn't have like the cachet and like the general pop community at the time.
So, Nat King Cole, I think, represented the possibility
of the American dream, right?
And so black people were like, this.
DJ Sir Daniel: give me that.
Yeah.
Jay Ray: Give me more of that, please.
And also, it's well sung, and it's a beautiful song.
And they did their big one on that.
So that's, for the Christmas song, I think it's that.
For this Christmas, I think this Christmas is just like a
quintessentially black Christmas song.
DJ Sir Daniel: Mm hmm.
Jay Ray: And I think that's why it has a chokehold on the black community.
And it's also a groove.
I mean, who can't did it, it did it, did it, did it.
It's got all the stuff that black folks want in that song.
Yeah.
I think that's why those two songs have a chokehold.
What are you, what is your theory?
What is your
DJ Sir Daniel: So I'm gonna hold my theory just a little bit because You um,
you brought up a couple things regarding both songs, but preparing for this
episode, Jay Ray, you and I discovered some things regarding these records
that I don't think a lot of people know.
And that's what key points is here for.
Um, both songs are synonymous with the holidays, but we discovered that
they were not immediate hit records.
Jay Ray: Not at all.
So a couple of quick history notes for the Christmas song.
So the Christmas song was, um, first recorded, which might surprise people.
It was first recorded in 1946 by the Nat King Cole Trio.
It was written in 45, recorded in 1946 by the Nat King Cole Trio.
And actually, the Christmas song has Four distinct recordings.
So the first recording happened at WMCA Studios in 1946, as we mentioned.
There was another recording at Studios in, um, so one was recorded in June,
one, one was recorded in August of 46.
The second recording there included the Nat King Cole trio and a choir.
they were like
DJ Sir Daniel: Yeah.
Jay Ray: fourth, recording of the song, which was actually recorded in 1961.
In the studio at Capitol Studios.
And that is the one that we're most familiar with.
It's Nat King Cole.
It wasn't even the Nat King Cole trio then.
It was just Nat King Cole, the band, the, the, the orchestra, et cetera.
Interesting tidbit about the Christmas song is there actually are four
different recordings of that song that all kind of have their own feel.
We are the most familiar with the last, so that's that on that one.
This Christmas, of course, written by one Donnie Hathaway, who is credited
as Donnie Pitts, uh, for this song and co written by Nadine Teresa McKenner.
Now Nadine is really important to this song because the
song really starts with her.
DJ Sir Daniel: Right.
Jay Ray: She's working in, um, as the story goes, she
was working in the post office
DJ Sir Daniel: Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Jay Ray: Nat King Cole in her head.
DJ Sir Daniel: So through line.
Yes.
Jay Ray: through line.
So she's in there thinking about Nat King Cole and she's humming along this
Christmas, da, da, da, Nat King Cole.
We're doing a whole thing, trying to get herself through the day.
And here comes the opportunity.
And that's 1967, by the
they wrote the song initially,
DJ Sir Daniel: I think that's very important.
Jay Ray: That is really important, right?
So this is, what, six years after the most famous version of Nat King Cole's song.
So that's still a contemporary song by the time they record this Christmas.
Donny Hathaway's, uh, uh, to this song is that Donny Hathaway
wanted a quintessentially black Christmas song, right?
And, um, by 1970, they record this song And Sir Daniel, we learned this.
We were both surprised by this.
this Christmas was not a hit when it dropped.
Like, this
DJ Sir Daniel: paid it
Jay Ray: y'all paid this Christmas dust.
This Christmas did not become a hit song until after Mr.
Hathaway's death.
This Christmas was just like, It languished for
years before becoming a hit.
DJ Sir Daniel: And the thing about that with very popular songs, um, that
sometimes really great songs essence, sometimes they don't automatically
become a commercial success.
Jay Ray: Mm
DJ Sir Daniel: They're like crock pots.
And I think a lot of producers and musicians back then wrote songs
Jay Ray: Mm hmm.
DJ Sir Daniel: for the crock pot generation.
Meaning that they were, they were allowed, yeah, those songs were allowed to simmer,
to stew, to, to, to, to double up on the flavor and really get ingrained.
And then they have this longevity that goes on for years, so much so
that in doing research for this, um, topic, I discovered that there
are like 80 covers and counting.
Of the Donny Hathaway classic this Christmas, 80 covers and counting.
Cause I'm sure I'm certain when y'all is out there cooking up a remix right
now that we may not need, but go ahead, do your thing, do your big one.
it in the mix.
You see what happens.
Maybe it'll become a hit for you.
But yes, there's like 80 plus covers of this Christmas.
There are approximately 1, 709 covers of the Nat King Cole
classic, the Christmas song.
That's
Jay Ray: makes
DJ Sir Daniel: industry is all about collecting dollars.
And sometimes if it ain't broke, fix it.
do, you know, don't recreate, you don't have to recreate the wheel, just do what
works and give the people what they want.
So we come to the end of, um, as we get ready to wrap up on this episode,
I kind of want to go back to what I was asking you in regards to why these
songs have such a chokehold on us, specifically in the black community.
you hit the nail on the head.
Jay Ray: Silence.
DJ Sir Daniel: this Christmas reflect two distinct eras in black America's history.
Jay Ray: Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel: of the things that affected black Americans deeply in the
Jim Crow era, the post civil war era, the, you know, right up until the civil
rights movement, there's this, like you said earlier, this need to feel Um,
like you're entitled to the American dream and whatever that looks like.
Well, back then it looked like class.
It looked like pearls.
It looked like, you know, a starched suit and, you know,
mom with her pin curls and 2.
5, 2.
5 kids and a dog.
All of those things that we were told is the American dream.
I don't know that this is something that they just kept telling
us while we were growing up.
Jay Ray: what did that mean?
DJ Sir Daniel: Well, I think back then you were encouraged, like
it was, they were encouraged for population reasons to have 2.
5.
It's like two in a possible.
I don't know what that meant either.
And the dog, don't forget the dog.
You gotta have that.
Jay Ray: the dog.
You have to have a dog.
Right.
DJ Sir Daniel: And so, so yes, that's why we get this picture of, and Nat
King Cole fit the bill, you know, he was a, a beautiful, Dark skinned black
man, but he had that clonk was on point.
It was slanted to the side and he had a part, you know, he was, you know, the
suit and tie just very classy set, you know, something that we as black Americans
could aspire to and white America felt comfortable around, which is really the
biggest deal is that they felt comfortable with that representation of black.
This and yeah, and so that's why they were, they were on fine with that.
And I think that's what propelled that song to heights.
then this Christmas was the opposite, but go ahead.
I see you
Jay Ray: Yeah,
DJ Sir Daniel: to say something.
Mm hmm.
Mm.
Jay Ray: So I know that I've mentioned this in past holiday
episodes, but it bears repeating.
Um, for me, the Christmas song represents like the, the start of the
holidays because my father, he had that old tattered Nat King Cole album
with all the Christmas, like it would be like the cover was falling apart.
Cause he had had it since the night, this is 1961, right?
But he would pop that neck King Cole on as we were decorating the
tree or doing whatever we were doing around the house during the
holidays, especially if he was home.
Um, during that time, if he worked first shift during the holidays, we knew
that that evening dad was going to want to do lights and do the tree and that
King Cole was going to start playing.
Even though I couldn't smell it, right?
Even though I'm sorry, even though we didn't have it, I could smell
chestnuts roasting on an open fire.
I don't know what that smelled like, but I, I do know what it smelled like
because we was smelling it in my house.
It wasn't no chestnuts roasting on Wayne had no open flyers, no
open fires other than the stove.
It wasn't no chestnuts on there, but the feeling, right?
You smelled it.
You felt it.
My father never played.
I don't know that he even owned this Christmas.
DJ Sir Daniel: That's wild that you say that, because from what I understand,
a lot of, a lot of us don't include the Christmas song on their list of
like favorite Christmas Black Christmas holiday music, I think, and this is where
this Christmas comes in this Christmas is post civil rights era is very much
in the, you know, the Black Panther movement is going on and we're in this
era of I'm black and I'm proud and, you know, we're moving into the future.
We're moving in front into the seventies and, you know, Black
people are feeling empowered and a lot of those respectability
politics were out of the window.
And this Christmas, whereas the other song was patent leather shoes and pearls,
this Christmas is definitely an Afro pick and a leather jacket, you know,
and maybe a turtleneck because it's reflecting a reflection of the time.
And, you know, Donnie Hathaway, of course, that image of him
with the big Applejack hat.
Jay Ray: Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel: dream is starting to feel like, wait a minute, is that real?
Or is it a fantasy?
You know, I'm, I'm here trying to pursue it, but I don't know if I'm
actually going to have it, but.
it comes to Christmastime, can create this moment of togetherness, of longing
togetherness, and longing for a feeling of warmth and soul through this song, and
we are forever grateful for Donnie and Mr.
McKinnon for putting pen to paper and creating this holiday classic for us.
Black America to enjoy,
Jay Ray: Yeah.
DJ Sir Daniel: um, the diaspora, you know, like I said, you can't have a
song that's been covered over 80 times and not have different flavors of it.
Jay Ray: Sir Daniel, I got a question then.
Let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's talk about it.
I'mma just share my, my perspective.
I actually think this Christmas is so good that people don't need to cover it.
I feel like this Christmas as I get why people cover the, the, the
Christmas song because it's a standard.
Like, it's a standard at
DJ Sir Daniel: Yes.
Jay Ray: In the culture, right?
It has an arrangement, you know, where the notes land, you
know, what the structure is.
Whereas this Christmas is a groove it could be a lot of things, but I think
the original is actually so perfect that we should just leave it there.
are your thoughts on people covering this Christmas?
Cause I don't like none of the covers.
I heard a cover of this Christmas that I like.
DJ Sir Daniel: You know,
I forget who said this, but it's like a running joke.
At least you tried.
It's very much.
At least you tried.
We get it.
Um,
that's the thing about covers and we're going to talk about covers
in the upcoming episodes soon.
So make sure you stay tuned to Queue Points and subscribe.
So when that episode drops, you'll get to chime in on that as well.
Jay Ray: Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel: But
Jay Ray: Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel: the feeling around covers is.
Jay Ray: Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel: one of those things that nobody really asks
for, but I believe just artists
Jay Ray: Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel: have this feeling in themselves, like
Jay Ray: Uh, Uh, Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel: that I need to take on.
Jay Ray: Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel: somebody else's music.
Some might cover a classic
Jay Ray: Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel: and it's also, again, it also is business.
industry realizes.
that covers Christmas albums, generate, um, money every single year.
McThank you, Mariah Carey.
They, you know, we really,
Jay Ray: out November 1st.
DJ Sir Daniel: you know, she started out already, so she's ready to go.
And so I think that's just something that the industry is crew
has created for another carrot.
For artists to, to chase after.
a lot of times they don't even really want to participate in it.
They just do it because it's something that they're told that
they have to do contractually.
So a lot of times this not even there, they're not even wanting to do it.
So, you know, I can take or leave a lot of covers.
It's very rare that somebody comes along and is like, Oh yeah, you know,
you put your foot in that and shout out to people like Brandy and Robert
Glasper and people like that, that have.
Put out new Christmas music with different spins on it.
And I don't know if it'll catch on to be a classic, like these two songs
that we've discussed, but the fact that they've attempted and that they are
inserting new, um, Christmas music in the American songbook is to be commended.
And we hope that new artists follow suit and give us some, you know, give us
something else, try and give us something that can become your own classic.
Jay Ray: Yeah, absolutely.
Y'all, thank you so much for tuning in as we wax poetic about, uh, the
Christmas song and this Christmas.
you all so much.
If you can hear us, if you can see us, please subscribe.
Tell a friend about the show.
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the question.
And Which song is your favorite?
Do you like the Christmas song?
Do you like this Christmas?
Is there another Christmas classic that you really enjoy?
Let us know.
You can always email us at info at Queue Points.
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Find us on social media at Definitely hop in our DMs and let us know.
We would love to share your favorite Christmas song.
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We love y'all.
We appreciate y'all.
DJ Sir Daniel: That's right.
And what do I say at the end of every episode in this life?
You have a choice.
You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.
My name is DJ Sir Daniel,
Jay Ray: My name is Jay Ray, y'all.
DJ Sir Daniel: and this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping
the needle on black music history.
We'll see you on the next go round.
Peace.
Jay Ray: Peace, y'all.