1 00:00:01,020 --> 00:00:05,790 A toxic work environment is what's getting blamed for the great 2 00:00:05,850 --> 00:00:09,090 resignation that's happening with the American workforce right now. 3 00:00:09,570 --> 00:00:13,830 But my next guess, Megan Jarvis, a clinical psychologist, says that 4 00:00:13,830 --> 00:00:16,290 behaviorally, this more resembles. 5 00:00:17,205 --> 00:00:22,665 The process of grieving and the great resignation or quiet quitting that's 6 00:00:22,665 --> 00:00:27,495 happening can actually be solved through grief inform leadership. 7 00:00:31,785 --> 00:00:33,855 Welcome to Passion and Profits Without Burnout. 8 00:00:34,185 --> 00:00:35,385 I'm your host, Jacob Moore. 9 00:00:36,015 --> 00:00:40,875 I'm a speaker, coach, childhood suicide loss survivor and filmmaker who left 10 00:00:40,875 --> 00:00:43,395 Hollywood to follow my heart of service. 11 00:00:43,875 --> 00:00:47,535 I've helped tens of thousands of people find the balance in their 12 00:00:47,535 --> 00:00:50,764 life between passion and profits. 13 00:00:50,864 --> 00:00:55,155 On the show, I'm gonna teach you how to build a trauma responsive, 14 00:00:55,845 --> 00:01:01,214 resilient, and impactful community and organization, all without burning out. 15 00:01:01,995 --> 00:01:02,925 Let's get started. 16 00:01:08,175 --> 00:01:10,065 Here's what you'll learn on today's episode. 17 00:01:10,695 --> 00:01:13,680 First, how does grief show up in the workplace? 18 00:01:13,740 --> 00:01:14,580 What does it look like? 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,740 How does it feel for staff and for the ethos of the workplace environment? 20 00:01:20,250 --> 00:01:23,940 Second, what happens when we don't address grief in the workplace? 21 00:01:24,270 --> 00:01:25,050 What are the results? 22 00:01:25,055 --> 00:01:30,370 Or on the flip side of that, what does a workspace feel like when 23 00:01:30,930 --> 00:01:32,540 we address grief in a healthy way? 24 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:37,725 And finally, Meghan's going to share one actionable thing that you can do 25 00:01:37,845 --> 00:01:44,265 right now today to make your workplace more grief informed and bonus, better 26 00:01:44,265 --> 00:01:48,705 prepare you for the inevitable grief that you'll face at some point in your life. 27 00:01:49,485 --> 00:01:53,685 Meghan Jarvis is a psychotherapist, a writer, a speaker, and 28 00:01:53,884 --> 00:01:55,485 the host of the podcast: 29 00:01:55,545 --> 00:01:57,105 grief is my side hustle. 30 00:01:57,435 --> 00:01:58,664 Please welcome Meghan to the show. 31 00:02:00,175 --> 00:02:08,775 Meghan, you are the Workplace Grief Guru, if, if I had to, to give you a 32 00:02:08,775 --> 00:02:16,440 title, uh, I, I have seen you pop up more and more recently related to, 33 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:21,480 you know, not, not just being grief informed, but actually doing something 34 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,400 about it being responsive to grief. 35 00:02:24,060 --> 00:02:27,840 You have talked about this idea of being able to solve quite 36 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,070 quitting through creating this grief informed leadership ethos. 37 00:02:32,850 --> 00:02:34,260 How do we, how do we do that? 38 00:02:34,260 --> 00:02:35,340 How do we start that process? 39 00:02:35,340 --> 00:02:37,050 It seems like a big nebulous thing. 40 00:02:37,530 --> 00:02:38,880 Well, first of all, thank you. 41 00:02:38,910 --> 00:02:42,780 Being called a guru in anything is, uh, totally intimidating. 42 00:02:42,780 --> 00:02:47,520 But you're right that the soapbox that I tend to stand on lately has 43 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,060 to do with where we are missing identifying grief and loss. 44 00:02:51,989 --> 00:02:53,880 And I think it's super tricky. 45 00:02:54,450 --> 00:02:59,970 Um, I think that we as a culture don't do a good job, even when grief and loss 46 00:02:59,970 --> 00:03:04,290 is obvious and in front of us, that our, you know, our friend's father died. 47 00:03:04,589 --> 00:03:07,200 It's like a, it's like a Dick and Jane sentence. 48 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,130 It's completely simple and we don't know how to show up for it. 49 00:03:11,130 --> 00:03:14,579 We don't know how to identify the emotions, connect to it, connected to it. 50 00:03:14,579 --> 00:03:19,109 We just, You know, we haven't really been given the opportunity to learn about it. 51 00:03:19,739 --> 00:03:25,290 What's really tricky about being at the place where we are in the pandemic 52 00:03:25,859 --> 00:03:32,160 is that companies are trying their hardest to get back, that's the word. 53 00:03:32,165 --> 00:03:35,579 Get back to work and back to the office and back. 54 00:03:36,450 --> 00:03:42,060 When you overlay the idea that the pandemic is driving a tremendous 55 00:03:42,060 --> 00:03:46,830 amount of loss, and I don't just mean the 9.1 million people who are 56 00:03:46,830 --> 00:03:51,870 grieving the loss of a human life from the pandemic, I also mean. 57 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:58,150 You know, the manager who spent five years culling his favorite employees into 58 00:03:58,155 --> 00:04:00,860 his department and had a corner office. 59 00:04:01,130 --> 00:04:04,510 And, you know, loved the team that he was working with. 60 00:04:04,540 --> 00:04:10,600 So the folks that I am talking to generally think I'm asking them a question 61 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,060 about like, who died in your office? 62 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:13,800 Right. 63 00:04:13,805 --> 00:04:17,530 And so what I know in their inability to answer the question 64 00:04:17,530 --> 00:04:20,140 is they're not even identifying 65 00:04:20,805 --> 00:04:22,875 the amount of loss that exists. 66 00:04:22,995 --> 00:04:23,025 Mm. 67 00:04:23,505 --> 00:04:28,995 And you know, grief is the natural physical reaction to loss and grief is 68 00:04:28,995 --> 00:04:31,395 this whole constellation of emotions. 69 00:04:31,615 --> 00:04:32,135 Right. 70 00:04:32,235 --> 00:04:35,535 One of which is anger and frustration. 71 00:04:35,955 --> 00:04:36,105 Yeah. 72 00:04:36,110 --> 00:04:38,715 And disconnection and isolation. 73 00:04:39,405 --> 00:04:43,605 And so at the sort of, you know, about a year ago we had all these articles 74 00:04:43,605 --> 00:04:45,495 coming out about the great resignation. 75 00:04:45,585 --> 00:04:50,659 Why did we have 47 million people leave the workforce? 76 00:04:51,530 --> 00:04:52,669 And that hasn't stopped. 77 00:04:52,669 --> 00:04:54,349 You know, the numbers are still pretty high. 78 00:04:54,590 --> 00:04:55,070 Yeah. 79 00:04:55,340 --> 00:04:57,979 And now we're kind of on the other side of that, right? 80 00:04:58,159 --> 00:05:01,159 These managers, their, their CEOs are coming to them like, 81 00:05:01,159 --> 00:05:02,330 Why is everybody leaving? 82 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,390 And they literally don't know the answer. 83 00:05:05,539 --> 00:05:08,929 But we have these studies that have come up where people are 84 00:05:08,929 --> 00:05:10,130 saying, Well, it's toxic work. 85 00:05:10,890 --> 00:05:14,610 Toxic workplace environment as if we left like some vegetables on 86 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:16,230 the counter and they went rotten. 87 00:05:16,230 --> 00:05:19,770 And, and you know, now we have a toxic workplace environment. 88 00:05:20,940 --> 00:05:22,830 Now we're calling it quiet, quitting. 89 00:05:22,830 --> 00:05:25,740 So first we were blaming the companies. 90 00:05:26,010 --> 00:05:28,110 Now we're sort of blaming these employees. 91 00:05:28,110 --> 00:05:31,320 And what we're saying is like, well, why, Why aren't people motivated? 92 00:05:31,660 --> 00:05:32,010 Mm. 93 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,940 And what I can tell you from a grief and loss perspective is this is exactly 94 00:05:36,495 --> 00:05:40,455 the trajectory that grief and loss follows when it goes unsupported. 95 00:05:41,685 --> 00:05:43,665 First, we have to be able to name it, right? 96 00:05:43,755 --> 00:05:46,755 We have to say, this is, you are experiencing loss. 97 00:05:47,175 --> 00:05:48,795 Grief is associated with loss. 98 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,675 Then we have to ask the questions, How is your grief showing up? 99 00:05:52,065 --> 00:05:55,605 And the way it's showing up in the workplace is a lot of helplessness. 100 00:05:57,135 --> 00:05:58,395 Yeah, absolutely. 101 00:05:58,395 --> 00:06:02,865 And I, and I think that when we liken it to. 102 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:10,020 Grief and, and I, and I think similarly trauma, um, it, it, it shows up in, in 103 00:06:10,250 --> 00:06:11,910 a, in the same way for a lot of people. 104 00:06:12,750 --> 00:06:17,220 And we see, well, what's the result of those unaddressed 105 00:06:17,220 --> 00:06:19,650 feelings that unaddressed it? 106 00:06:19,650 --> 00:06:21,180 It's, it's overwhelmed, right? 107 00:06:21,180 --> 00:06:22,320 It's, it's, yeah. 108 00:06:22,350 --> 00:06:24,360 Stress to the point of burnout out. 109 00:06:26,099 --> 00:06:27,599 Of course people are leaving. 110 00:06:27,780 --> 00:06:33,179 Of course they're ghosting because they just can't even, and well- 111 00:06:33,179 --> 00:06:35,310 -they don't, they don't have a choice. 112 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,960 This is, this is the challenge, is that when you're talking about something, 113 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,460 you know, if there's grief inside the family, the stakes are different than 114 00:06:44,489 --> 00:06:46,540 if there's grief inside the workplace. 115 00:06:47,094 --> 00:06:50,784 And again, if you, if you posit as I do that people don't even 116 00:06:50,784 --> 00:06:54,414 really understand that they're experiencing grief, all they know is 117 00:06:54,414 --> 00:06:55,784 they don't like the way this feels. 118 00:06:56,164 --> 00:07:00,205 They have managers and bosses who are saying, We're getting back to work. 119 00:07:00,205 --> 00:07:04,465 But any griever will tell you there's no back when there's been an untenable loss 120 00:07:05,005 --> 00:07:07,554 or you know, a big trauma as the pandemic. 121 00:07:08,265 --> 00:07:09,705 We're not going back anywhere. 122 00:07:09,885 --> 00:07:10,095 Yep. 123 00:07:10,185 --> 00:07:12,585 And so people are feeling pulled, they're feeling pulled 124 00:07:12,585 --> 00:07:13,965 back to their old work hours. 125 00:07:13,965 --> 00:07:16,485 They're feeling pulled back to their old quarterly statements. 126 00:07:16,490 --> 00:07:17,385 They're feeling pulled. 127 00:07:17,925 --> 00:07:21,105 And really what we need to be looking at is saying, Hey, this 128 00:07:21,105 --> 00:07:23,025 is a totally different game. 129 00:07:23,565 --> 00:07:25,605 We have some of the same players. 130 00:07:25,815 --> 00:07:25,965 Yeah. 131 00:07:26,235 --> 00:07:28,815 But people are bringing in this emotional experience in a 132 00:07:28,815 --> 00:07:30,705 way that they had not before. 133 00:07:31,485 --> 00:07:33,625 And we have to make room for that. 134 00:07:34,095 --> 00:07:35,130 I mean, it doesn't work. 135 00:07:35,130 --> 00:07:36,300 It doesn't work as an individual. 136 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:40,560 It won't work as a company, not to make room for what the emotional 137 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,110 experience is and the way it shows up. 138 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:44,910 So let me give you an example. 139 00:07:44,910 --> 00:07:49,650 Like this is a, an amalgam of, of an example that comes up all the time. 140 00:07:50,130 --> 00:07:52,320 Someone has a tragic event. 141 00:07:52,724 --> 00:07:54,435 Their father dies. 142 00:07:54,435 --> 00:07:58,245 They have a health issue, their child has a health issue. 143 00:07:58,275 --> 00:08:02,614 There's something that happens and they need some flexibility in their job. 144 00:08:02,614 --> 00:08:05,895 And they like their boss, and their boss likes them. 145 00:08:06,615 --> 00:08:11,524 And so their boss says, Of course, with so much intention we 146 00:08:11,524 --> 00:08:12,885 will do anything you need. 147 00:08:14,205 --> 00:08:16,755 And so that employee takes the time off. 148 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,030 And they feel supported and loved and eventually come back to work. 149 00:08:21,030 --> 00:08:25,650 Now, the standard in grief and loss work in inside companies 150 00:08:25,650 --> 00:08:27,090 is like three to five days off. 151 00:08:27,090 --> 00:08:28,470 That's the standard, right? 152 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,150 Really lovely employees. 153 00:08:30,790 --> 00:08:32,670 Employers will give you, you know, a week. 154 00:08:33,510 --> 00:08:36,810 But when you talk to Grievers, how long do you experience your grief? 155 00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:38,700 I mean, that number is insulting. 156 00:08:38,700 --> 00:08:41,079 It's nowhere near what we need. 157 00:08:41,860 --> 00:08:47,190 While they're off in their job, know, the, the employer is just loving on 158 00:08:47,190 --> 00:08:51,210 them, sending flowers, sending their kid an iPad, telling the company we 159 00:08:51,210 --> 00:08:54,300 really have to support him because he's, you know, having a hard time. 160 00:08:54,930 --> 00:08:58,400 And then he comes back to his job where all the emails that have been 161 00:08:58,930 --> 00:09:05,415 compiling are sitting in the inbox and all the vendors, because you know, his 162 00:09:05,415 --> 00:09:07,455 boss didn't wanna break his privacy. 163 00:09:07,635 --> 00:09:09,285 His vendors don't know that he's been out. 164 00:09:09,915 --> 00:09:14,985 So he has 16,000 emails in his inbox and all the same deadlines 165 00:09:14,985 --> 00:09:16,605 that he's ever had before. 166 00:09:17,475 --> 00:09:22,755 And, you know, the, the story becomes, they leave that job. 167 00:09:23,460 --> 00:09:26,130 Because there's tension now the boss doesn't really understand 168 00:09:26,130 --> 00:09:27,390 what he didn't do enough of. 169 00:09:27,390 --> 00:09:30,570 Cuz he sent an iPad and he sent, you know, he did the things. 170 00:09:31,495 --> 00:09:31,895 Yeah. 171 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:36,945 And the employee doesn't really understand that what he's resenting, his boss, his 172 00:09:37,185 --> 00:09:41,295 colleagues, his whatever for, is that his grief is not being validated Yeah. 173 00:09:41,295 --> 00:09:43,485 In the way that it needs to be validated. 174 00:09:43,875 --> 00:09:46,455 Well, and there wasn't a true accommodation. 175 00:09:46,825 --> 00:09:47,185 Right. 176 00:09:47,485 --> 00:09:50,815 For for that situation. 177 00:09:51,045 --> 00:09:55,095 And I think we often find that, you know, whether it's mental health, um, 178 00:09:55,125 --> 00:10:02,625 or, or otherwise, When it is something intangible, when it's not a physical, you 179 00:10:02,625 --> 00:10:08,625 know, broken arm or covid or something like that, those accommodations aren't 180 00:10:08,625 --> 00:10:13,935 made in the same way When someone's outta the office because of a physical illness, 181 00:10:13,935 --> 00:10:16,425 we say, Oh, well they're not here. 182 00:10:16,425 --> 00:10:20,535 So we need to forward those emails and we may need to make sure that someone's 183 00:10:20,865 --> 00:10:24,704 handling those accounts and that it's known that they're not available. 184 00:10:25,620 --> 00:10:27,449 We don't, we don't think about it that way. 185 00:10:27,449 --> 00:10:30,300 When it's something, you know, less tangible 186 00:10:30,390 --> 00:10:32,550 and the fact that it's not tangible is part of it. 187 00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:38,280 I think also, you know, it's got this like taboo discomfort, awkwardness, 188 00:10:38,699 --> 00:10:43,199 so you know, again, if your family has a baby, six months later, eight 189 00:10:43,199 --> 00:10:46,170 months later, 10 months later, people are gonna be asking you, how is that? 190 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:48,810 Now there is an argument to be made. 191 00:10:48,810 --> 00:10:51,360 I'm a mother of three, that having a baby is a trauma. 192 00:10:51,390 --> 00:10:56,100 I mean, it is a lot to a family to take in something that needs you constantly. 193 00:10:56,610 --> 00:11:00,870 It's a happy trauma, but it's still a really significant change 194 00:11:00,930 --> 00:11:02,430 and there is loss involved. 195 00:11:02,430 --> 00:11:03,660 There's also gifts involved. 196 00:11:04,740 --> 00:11:08,205 , but people don't shy away from that kind of a change in your life. 197 00:11:08,545 --> 00:11:09,035 Yeah. 198 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,425 And the changes that are happening here, we have to kind of like acknowledge 199 00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:15,585 the loss in order to move forward. 200 00:11:15,615 --> 00:11:19,185 And what's happening is companies are like, Come on, come on, move forward. 201 00:11:19,605 --> 00:11:22,755 And when they're, when their employees are not able to do that, 202 00:11:22,755 --> 00:11:26,385 because actually human beings can't, we can't just skip over the 203 00:11:26,385 --> 00:11:27,855 emotional experience of something. 204 00:11:28,215 --> 00:11:30,735 Now we're looking at those employees and we're saying like, Well, 205 00:11:30,735 --> 00:11:32,235 they're not really a team player. 206 00:11:32,610 --> 00:11:34,080 And they're not really motivated. 207 00:11:34,170 --> 00:11:38,100 And I think it's, I think it's worth saying, you know, there is a study 208 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:46,380 from 2012 that in 2012 estimated that 75 billion is lost in the 209 00:11:46,380 --> 00:11:50,340 industry because of grief and loss, which if we extrapolate that out to 210 00:11:50,345 --> 00:11:53,495 today's numbers, that's 119 billion. 211 00:11:55,055 --> 00:12:00,045 So it's not as though this isn't a problem that's been around, it's just 212 00:12:00,214 --> 00:12:05,594 a problem that right now the numbers are really stunningly overwhelming 213 00:12:05,655 --> 00:12:10,364 and, and I don't wanna just say, Oh my gosh, this is all hard. 214 00:12:10,369 --> 00:12:14,354 Because the hope behind it is, you know, it's not difficult. 215 00:12:14,354 --> 00:12:18,994 Grief and loss is actually not a difficult thing to show up for. 216 00:12:19,755 --> 00:12:23,985 When you talk to people who are grieving, just someone saying, I 217 00:12:23,985 --> 00:12:25,605 was thinking of you the other day. 218 00:12:26,835 --> 00:12:29,805 Do you, you know, I was, Is Halloween a hard time for you? 219 00:12:31,229 --> 00:12:35,099 I, you know what I, I was remembering this time last year and I was just 220 00:12:35,099 --> 00:12:39,959 thinking, I can't believe it's been a full year that, that the smallest ways 221 00:12:39,959 --> 00:12:44,310 of acknowledging, saying the name of the person who died, acknowledging the loss, 222 00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:46,920 like if it's your office that you lost. 223 00:12:47,490 --> 00:12:51,210 Which again, maybe people have feelings about that not being, We 224 00:12:51,210 --> 00:12:53,970 shouldn't be grieving it, but I can't tell you the number of times I 225 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:57,120 have heard that people are grieving their actual office space, right? 226 00:12:57,540 --> 00:13:00,510 Someone's saying, God, don't you miss that crazy orange carpet? 227 00:13:01,050 --> 00:13:08,190 That alone makes someone feel seen and known and gives them room to say 228 00:13:08,190 --> 00:13:12,390 out loud what their actual internal experience is, and they're less 229 00:13:12,390 --> 00:13:14,100 isolated and they're more connected. 230 00:13:14,430 --> 00:13:15,600 It's not, it doesn't take 231 00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:16,939 . Yeah. 232 00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:21,619 You, and you and I have previously talked about this idea that, you know, when 233 00:13:21,619 --> 00:13:27,140 someone Yeah, experiences a loss, often they're just, they're left alone and 234 00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:31,010 there's this, you know, sort of awkward, like, I don't know what to do, or I don't, 235 00:13:31,129 --> 00:13:36,349 I don't want to retraumatize them, or I, I don't want to like, bring it up for them. 236 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,786 And in fact, uh, most often the opposite is true and the opposite is necessary., 237 00:13:41,986 --> 00:13:44,119 Yeah, a hundred percent. 238 00:13:44,119 --> 00:13:47,569 So that when you talk to Grievers, what is the thing that is the most painful? 239 00:13:47,569 --> 00:13:49,849 They're gonna tell you the people who didn't show up and 240 00:13:49,849 --> 00:13:51,439 the way that they felt isolated. 241 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,180 And so from a primary Griever's point of view, you know, there's a 242 00:13:56,180 --> 00:13:59,839 process that grief sort of stake it takes, It has nothing to do with the 243 00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:04,880 five stages of grief, but it does have to do with your brain taking in 244 00:14:05,170 --> 00:14:07,739 the world as different than it was 245 00:14:07,769 --> 00:14:11,939 you know, before you, before this terrible thing happened, and you are the 246 00:14:11,939 --> 00:14:16,049 only person that that is happening to, or you and your cluster of people are 247 00:14:16,079 --> 00:14:19,559 the only, So everyone else is going to work with a Starbucks cup in their hand. 248 00:14:19,564 --> 00:14:23,129 And you are like, I'm telling you, the world is not tilting on its access. 249 00:14:23,579 --> 00:14:24,149 And so there's- 250 00:14:24,589 --> 00:14:29,824 -And even if a group of people go through the same thing, they still experience it 251 00:14:29,824 --> 00:14:32,414 as individuals, through their own lens. 252 00:14:32,414 --> 00:14:38,224 A collective trauma means we are all going through the same event, but our experience 253 00:14:38,224 --> 00:14:40,174 in that trauma will always be individual. 254 00:14:40,204 --> 00:14:42,634 The example I often use is that I'm one of six. 255 00:14:42,634 --> 00:14:47,314 Both of my parents have died, but I lost my mother all by myself. 256 00:14:47,434 --> 00:14:51,694 My relationship that I lost with her is not the relationship that my brother lost. 257 00:14:52,234 --> 00:14:57,919 And so while we can talk about that and share it, my, my experience needs to be 258 00:14:57,919 --> 00:15:00,199 validated by me and the people around me. 259 00:15:00,199 --> 00:15:04,969 And his experience needs to be validated by the people around him and in his own 260 00:15:04,969 --> 00:15:10,099 way, and what I think is challenging, particularly when people are at work, 261 00:15:10,564 --> 00:15:16,684 is that, you know, we, we have different relationships and so we don't wanna invade 262 00:15:17,044 --> 00:15:19,329 somebody's privacy and we don't want to. 263 00:15:19,809 --> 00:15:21,964 Um, push into a story. 264 00:15:22,024 --> 00:15:24,904 You know, I only know Bob a little bit, but he's a, you know, he 265 00:15:24,904 --> 00:15:26,464 works in the cubicle next to me. 266 00:15:26,794 --> 00:15:31,124 So it's both kind of like knowing how to, how to show up for the story. 267 00:15:31,174 --> 00:15:32,554 How do I show up for it? 268 00:15:32,554 --> 00:15:36,639 And, and also sort of taking cues from someone else. 269 00:15:36,639 --> 00:15:40,409 That sense of isolation is the thing that we are working against. 270 00:15:41,129 --> 00:15:46,779 And we don't want the person ever to feel like we don't care because 271 00:15:46,779 --> 00:15:51,099 the isolation, you know, we have all this data about alone and lonely and 272 00:15:51,099 --> 00:15:54,489 what it Dr you know, the poor mental health outcomes and health outcomes in 273 00:15:54,489 --> 00:15:56,349 general, that that drives for people. 274 00:15:57,659 --> 00:16:01,169 In grief and loss, that is one of the predicted you know, 275 00:16:01,189 --> 00:16:02,599 mental states, Is that it? 276 00:16:03,009 --> 00:16:05,929 Even when people feel deeply connected, they're gonna have moments where 277 00:16:05,934 --> 00:16:10,549 they feel really, really disconnected because they're disconnected 278 00:16:10,554 --> 00:16:12,169 from the life they used to live. 279 00:16:12,439 --> 00:16:12,929 Yeah. 280 00:16:13,609 --> 00:16:14,029 Yeah. 281 00:16:14,029 --> 00:16:17,509 And you know, I've been saying that a a lot lately. 282 00:16:17,569 --> 00:16:24,199 You know, we, like, there is no going back and we have to take the time to grieve 283 00:16:24,559 --> 00:16:29,254 what was in order to truly move forward. 284 00:16:29,674 --> 00:16:34,534 The challenge is that life is happening all at the same time, right? 285 00:16:34,564 --> 00:16:37,084 So work continues. 286 00:16:37,354 --> 00:16:43,024 Companies hopefully continue other people's lives continue, and yet as 287 00:16:43,029 --> 00:16:50,014 individuals or as you know, the leader of someone who, who are managing, they're 288 00:16:50,284 --> 00:16:52,684 experiencing this grief real time. 289 00:16:52,974 --> 00:16:56,374 So, How do we reconcile that? 290 00:16:56,554 --> 00:17:04,174 How do we continue to march forward while simultaneously honoring and 291 00:17:04,204 --> 00:17:07,954 giving the, the space and the attention necessary to that grief process? 292 00:17:08,644 --> 00:17:09,034 Hm. 293 00:17:09,154 --> 00:17:10,294 That's such a good question. 294 00:17:10,834 --> 00:17:15,274 And again, I want my answer to be hopeful because I think it is hopeful. 295 00:17:15,274 --> 00:17:18,334 I don't actually think the answer to the question is that hard. 296 00:17:18,814 --> 00:17:22,504 You know, probably 10 years ago, the thing that I got called, I live 297 00:17:22,504 --> 00:17:24,814 in Washington, DC you know, I do. 298 00:17:24,814 --> 00:17:29,584 I work with people who are writing all the government language and 299 00:17:29,644 --> 00:17:31,834 working with all the contractors here. 300 00:17:32,494 --> 00:17:36,964 What I used to get called about most often was like the thing that we 301 00:17:37,434 --> 00:17:39,514 describe as work-life balance, right? 302 00:17:39,784 --> 00:17:44,074 So I don't think work life balance, What I always started talking about was like 303 00:17:44,074 --> 00:17:47,194 if you're, if you are having trouble with work-life balance, you're having, you 304 00:17:47,194 --> 00:17:49,174 are actually having a boundary problem. 305 00:17:49,174 --> 00:17:51,604 You're having a problem saying no to things, right? 306 00:17:52,054 --> 00:17:54,604 And every time you don't say no to something, you, you miss the 307 00:17:54,604 --> 00:17:56,344 opportunity to say yes to something. 308 00:17:56,914 --> 00:17:59,029 And so I probably did that tap dance... 309 00:17:59,239 --> 00:18:03,540 I don't know, 150 times at different companies because they were aware 310 00:18:03,989 --> 00:18:10,050 that their employees were having a struggle between balancing the time 311 00:18:10,050 --> 00:18:14,639 at work and the time away from work, and it was showing up as anxiety. 312 00:18:16,114 --> 00:18:19,504 So you know that that was as much as they knew. 313 00:18:19,594 --> 00:18:23,074 Now when I was done talking to them, they had a whole different 314 00:18:23,074 --> 00:18:27,124 understanding of what that balance that they wanted to create. 315 00:18:27,304 --> 00:18:29,975 Different vocabulary, different words, different. 316 00:18:30,485 --> 00:18:34,804 You know, what I feel right now about the workplace is a lot of compassion. 317 00:18:35,284 --> 00:18:38,704 Most people are being led by folks who went to business school. 318 00:18:39,314 --> 00:18:42,529 And in business school they didn't have like a whole bunch of classes 319 00:18:42,529 --> 00:18:44,870 about like your emotions about things. 320 00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:49,969 They have some management tools which include cute emotions around things 321 00:18:49,969 --> 00:18:54,499 like maybe they learned the enneagram, but grief and loss goes beyond that. 322 00:18:54,769 --> 00:19:00,139 And, and if I could just say it sort of plainly, what we're 323 00:19:00,144 --> 00:19:02,749 asking companies to do is to ask. 324 00:19:03,889 --> 00:19:09,019 Name the experience of loss as already present inside their office. 325 00:19:09,024 --> 00:19:12,139 To not be afraid to do that because it's already there. 326 00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:16,850 People are grieving right to to name it and then ask about it. 327 00:19:17,479 --> 00:19:21,289 And it doesn't mean you have to sit and have a, you know, a group therapy session. 328 00:19:21,289 --> 00:19:23,179 You can have a journaling exercise. 329 00:19:23,779 --> 00:19:27,649 You can bring someone in to lead a journaling exercise where, you know what? 330 00:19:28,279 --> 00:19:32,029 I want you guys to write for three minutes about all the things 331 00:19:32,029 --> 00:19:34,159 that have significantly changed. 332 00:19:34,370 --> 00:19:35,629 That's usually how I start. 333 00:19:36,199 --> 00:19:38,899 What things feel like they have been a significant change. 334 00:19:38,899 --> 00:19:43,729 Because anytime you have changed, you have lost, and then I lead them a little bit. 335 00:19:43,759 --> 00:19:46,879 Oh well, the emotional experience around that change, was it 336 00:19:47,329 --> 00:19:48,229 positive or negative for you? 337 00:19:48,499 --> 00:19:50,850 Put a plus mark next to the positive and negative. 338 00:19:51,049 --> 00:19:52,340 Do you have more positive or. 339 00:19:53,419 --> 00:19:55,699 How many of those changes feel like they're connected 340 00:19:55,699 --> 00:19:56,779 to your workplace environment? 341 00:19:56,809 --> 00:20:00,799 I'm just, there's a word called Alexa imia, which basically means 342 00:20:00,979 --> 00:20:02,239 you don't know how you feel. 343 00:20:03,349 --> 00:20:05,759 Lots of people don't know how they feel cuz they weren't 344 00:20:05,764 --> 00:20:07,549 taught about feeling words. 345 00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:10,399 Many more people don't know how they feel cuz they haven't 346 00:20:10,404 --> 00:20:11,809 slowed down to feel the feelings. 347 00:20:12,389 --> 00:20:12,949 Right. 348 00:20:13,279 --> 00:20:17,429 So this is just a, we're just talking about like once a quarter exercise 349 00:20:17,449 --> 00:20:21,589 where we're gonna slow down and feel the feelings and then we're gonna know. 350 00:20:22,294 --> 00:20:24,574 we're gonna be able to say, Gosh, you know what? 351 00:20:25,174 --> 00:20:29,164 I really miss the secretary who used to be in our office who had 352 00:20:29,164 --> 00:20:30,484 to move to go be with her mother. 353 00:20:31,234 --> 00:20:32,674 I'm missing her face. 354 00:20:32,934 --> 00:20:33,424 Yeah. 355 00:20:33,424 --> 00:20:34,504 I miss her voice. 356 00:20:35,644 --> 00:20:38,344 You're not gonna be the only one who has that experience. 357 00:20:38,344 --> 00:20:42,934 And the minute this is, this is the truth of trauma therapy, the 358 00:20:42,934 --> 00:20:46,564 minute someone begins to tear up, I know I'm on the truth for them. 359 00:20:46,684 --> 00:20:47,014 Right? 360 00:20:47,014 --> 00:20:50,554 So it's like you just press a little bit more on the truth to help the feelings. 361 00:20:51,725 --> 00:20:55,985 And that's really all we're doing in office environments is saying, 362 00:20:56,195 --> 00:20:57,935 I know you guys wanna move ahead. 363 00:20:58,445 --> 00:21:02,824 I totally understand that, but you're gonna be dragging people by the hair 364 00:21:02,854 --> 00:21:09,574 if you don't let them spend a moment honoring all the good that once was. 365 00:21:09,574 --> 00:21:10,594 That has changed. 366 00:21:10,834 --> 00:21:14,405 And yeah, delineating, which pieces of that feel. 367 00:21:16,909 --> 00:21:20,479 And, and the way that, the way that hard shows up for a lot of 368 00:21:20,479 --> 00:21:22,729 people is anger and frustration. 369 00:21:22,729 --> 00:21:27,409 You know, we bring in this part that resists, and so suddenly this 370 00:21:27,414 --> 00:21:30,889 boss that I would've sworn fidelity to, to the rest for the rest of 371 00:21:30,889 --> 00:21:35,569 my life hasn't let me acknowledge my, And I suddenly, I'm talking 372 00:21:35,569 --> 00:21:38,689 about him like he's kind of a jerk. 373 00:21:39,079 --> 00:21:40,939 And people are like, God, you used to love Kevin. 374 00:21:40,939 --> 00:21:41,360 It's like, wow. 375 00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:43,039 You know, Kevin has changed. 376 00:21:43,844 --> 00:21:46,054 You know, Kevin hasn't, probably, hasn't changed either. 377 00:21:46,264 --> 00:21:48,004 He's just having a hard time too. 378 00:21:48,154 --> 00:21:49,235 He doesn't know how to do this. 379 00:21:49,444 --> 00:21:49,644 Yeah. 380 00:21:50,254 --> 00:21:53,854 Doesn't have the skill sets, you know, so, So what I'm really hearing is, 381 00:21:53,854 --> 00:22:01,384 is we need to shine a light on this and it, it can be as simple as just 382 00:22:01,474 --> 00:22:07,834 bringing it into, you know, into a space where we all acknowledge it and. 383 00:22:08,659 --> 00:22:10,249 And that is a start. 384 00:22:10,459 --> 00:22:15,979 That is the beginning of understanding how to, how to start 385 00:22:15,979 --> 00:22:18,559 to address grief in the workplace. 386 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:24,319 And so, so let's, um, I, I was gonna ask you what happens if we don't 387 00:22:24,319 --> 00:22:25,879 consider loss in the workplace? 388 00:22:25,879 --> 00:22:26,869 But I, I wanna flip that. 389 00:22:26,929 --> 00:22:28,069 I wanna, Yeah. 390 00:22:28,069 --> 00:22:32,539 I wanna ask what happens in the workplace when we start to address 391 00:22:32,989 --> 00:22:35,299 grief, when we start to shine that light? 392 00:22:36,019 --> 00:22:37,070 What do you see? 393 00:22:37,070 --> 00:22:38,330 How do you see that show up? 394 00:22:39,169 --> 00:22:44,824 Well, I'll answer both questions anytime you don't address an emotional experience 395 00:22:44,824 --> 00:22:46,864 that someone is exhibiting for you. 396 00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:47,735 They pull away. 397 00:22:47,914 --> 00:22:52,024 You experience disconnection, and when people don't understand what the dis 398 00:22:52,235 --> 00:22:55,864 disconnection is, they will tell a story and that story will become the truth. 399 00:22:55,864 --> 00:22:59,644 Kevin is an asshole, and that is not necessarily the truth, 400 00:22:59,649 --> 00:23:00,995 but that's the best I can do. 401 00:23:01,444 --> 00:23:05,764 When we flip it over and we say, What are the benefits of being able to 402 00:23:07,444 --> 00:23:09,485 shine the light, as you described. 403 00:23:10,294 --> 00:23:15,424 You know, when you are able to, to have a small group of people tell the truth, 404 00:23:15,814 --> 00:23:18,274 what you hear is a me too experience. 405 00:23:18,844 --> 00:23:22,594 And what you see is a loosening of people. 406 00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:24,664 Te I mean, I have chills just thinking about it. 407 00:23:24,664 --> 00:23:28,174 And when I say This is what you see, I'm, I'm, I'm being honest. 408 00:23:28,174 --> 00:23:29,884 This is what you see and feel. 409 00:23:29,884 --> 00:23:33,034 And I can give you, I'll give you an example that I've spoken about 410 00:23:33,034 --> 00:23:37,894 on my podcast, but I worked with a company that, um, their, their. 411 00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:41,449 Their main job is hotels. 412 00:23:41,959 --> 00:23:46,489 And I asked them, you know, they had me come in because they lost a 413 00:23:46,489 --> 00:23:51,679 really prominent, um, member of their community and they wanted to know 414 00:23:51,679 --> 00:23:53,389 how can we support our community. 415 00:23:53,389 --> 00:23:55,219 And so I asked, What do you already do? 416 00:23:55,939 --> 00:23:59,600 And you know, the person in charge said with a lot of pride, Well, 417 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,620 you know, we send gift cards, we send food, we send flowers. 418 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:04,999 You know, we really show. 419 00:24:05,584 --> 00:24:09,904 And someone at the other end of the table said, Well, you know, she sort of coughed. 420 00:24:09,904 --> 00:24:10,745 And I was like, What? 421 00:24:11,344 --> 00:24:14,824 And she said, Well, you know, we send the same basket of flowers 422 00:24:15,364 --> 00:24:18,705 that we send when they sign their contracts with the company. 423 00:24:20,479 --> 00:24:25,340 So they send the exact same like, you know, f t d bouquet of roses 424 00:24:25,759 --> 00:24:29,870 when your mother dies, as when you have signed with the company. 425 00:24:29,929 --> 00:24:33,830 And the, the look on the face of the person in charge was like, No, we don't. 426 00:24:33,860 --> 00:24:35,419 And she said, No, we do. 427 00:24:35,719 --> 00:24:36,469 That is what we do. 428 00:24:36,469 --> 00:24:43,639 Ah, and so quickly the amount of like sort of pain in the room about just 429 00:24:43,669 --> 00:24:46,459 not ever sitting and, and discussing. 430 00:24:47,659 --> 00:24:48,219 Right. 431 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:51,439 You know, so we spent some moments like, What do you think that must feel like? 432 00:24:51,619 --> 00:24:52,219 You know, why? 433 00:24:52,249 --> 00:24:52,639 Why? 434 00:24:52,669 --> 00:24:53,959 Why is this so hard? 435 00:24:53,959 --> 00:24:56,209 And people told their own stories. 436 00:24:56,214 --> 00:24:59,449 They told their own stories of someone accidentally harming 437 00:24:59,449 --> 00:25:01,399 them when they meant to show up. 438 00:25:01,399 --> 00:25:06,979 Well, and I'm not kidding, Jacob, like within 30 minutes, this company, because 439 00:25:07,369 --> 00:25:11,119 someone said, You know what, The best thing someone did for me when I was having 440 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,969 a funeral is they set up hotel rooms. 441 00:25:14,029 --> 00:25:14,779 This was a hotel. 442 00:25:15,979 --> 00:25:18,409 The hotel company was like, We wanna do that. 443 00:25:18,769 --> 00:25:22,519 Anytime there's a funeral in this company, we're gonna, we're gonna support 444 00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:24,469 the out of town members of the family. 445 00:25:24,949 --> 00:25:28,729 And I'm not exaggerating when I say there was some tears about that. 446 00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:33,409 There were so much relief it didn't even take, These are smart people in a room. 447 00:25:33,414 --> 00:25:35,149 It didn't take them that much time. 448 00:25:35,419 --> 00:25:36,499 That's what happens. 449 00:25:36,529 --> 00:25:40,879 And that group, which was a group of 12, I'm telling you, they created 450 00:25:40,879 --> 00:25:44,419 some intimacy in that, You know, all that stuff that you do with 451 00:25:44,419 --> 00:25:47,779 companies where they make you build a boat out of like team building, 452 00:25:47,779 --> 00:25:49,279 do you know, toilet roller ladders? 453 00:25:49,469 --> 00:25:53,659 They want you to bond their, the bonding in this moment was 454 00:25:53,779 --> 00:25:55,969 really deep and really quick. 455 00:25:55,999 --> 00:25:56,059 Wow. 456 00:25:57,859 --> 00:25:58,189 Yeah. 457 00:25:58,699 --> 00:25:59,029 Yeah. 458 00:25:59,029 --> 00:26:05,539 And, and what I'm hearing is also not in a way that is. 459 00:26:05,974 --> 00:26:09,454 It has to sacrifice boundaries in the workplace. 460 00:26:10,654 --> 00:26:12,424 And, and that's really wonderful. 461 00:26:13,414 --> 00:26:17,254 So, Megan, I, I know we can talk more and more about this. 462 00:26:17,314 --> 00:26:21,245 Um, there's, there's so much depth and breadth to this, this topic. 463 00:26:21,245 --> 00:26:22,834 We're just scratching the surface. 464 00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:27,334 And obviously, you know, if an organizational leader really wants 465 00:26:27,334 --> 00:26:32,464 to, uh, wants to make a change in this area, bringing on someone, an 466 00:26:32,469 --> 00:26:39,064 expert like you who can really take them through the process of, you 467 00:26:39,064 --> 00:26:44,224 know, developing the language and the infrastructure necessary to, to do this. 468 00:26:44,314 --> 00:26:49,174 Um, you know, that that's, that's the level that, that someone needs to work on. 469 00:26:49,179 --> 00:26:54,424 But what's one thing that an organizational leader 470 00:26:54,424 --> 00:26:56,944 can do right now today? 471 00:26:57,194 --> 00:26:57,684 Yeah. 472 00:26:57,684 --> 00:27:06,485 To start to shift to being more grief informed and, and, How, how do they do 473 00:27:06,485 --> 00:27:12,514 that without having to, you know, go up the ladder, the chain of approval, 474 00:27:12,904 --> 00:27:15,455 you know, to to, to get this done? 475 00:27:16,264 --> 00:27:18,935 What's just one simple thing that they can do right now today? 476 00:27:19,475 --> 00:27:19,894 Okay. 477 00:27:19,894 --> 00:27:22,324 Such a, that's such an excellent question. 478 00:27:22,330 --> 00:27:25,024 And again, you know, you don't have to feel like you need to 479 00:27:25,024 --> 00:27:27,064 bring an expert in to help. 480 00:27:27,154 --> 00:27:30,764 And I just wanna say this phrase, sort of co-create an idea. 481 00:27:31,189 --> 00:27:34,820 Of how we're gonna address grief and loss in the, that you know, that 482 00:27:34,850 --> 00:27:36,439 that may not be your first step. 483 00:27:36,439 --> 00:27:39,919 Would I say to anybody who asks that question, whether they're coming from 484 00:27:39,919 --> 00:27:43,129 the perspective of being in a company environment or just, you know, in their 485 00:27:43,129 --> 00:27:47,780 own home, is pick up a memoir that you know is about grief and loss because 486 00:27:47,784 --> 00:27:52,370 that author is going to have spent a lot of time very specifically cultivating 487 00:27:52,870 --> 00:27:54,499 language that is tr a true story. 488 00:27:54,794 --> 00:27:57,225 But in a way that you're gonna identify with. 489 00:27:57,225 --> 00:27:58,634 That's the whole point of a memoir. 490 00:27:58,634 --> 00:27:59,925 Listen to a podcast. 491 00:27:59,925 --> 00:28:03,705 There are extraordinary podcasts out there about grief and loss. 492 00:28:03,705 --> 00:28:05,564 I have one called, Grief is My Side Hustle. 493 00:28:05,564 --> 00:28:08,804 Another one that I love is called Grief Out Loud. 494 00:28:08,894 --> 00:28:10,904 Um, that's another great one. 495 00:28:10,909 --> 00:28:13,904 There are some from the UK that are really extraordinary. 496 00:28:13,904 --> 00:28:15,705 Just put grief and it's easy. 497 00:28:15,705 --> 00:28:18,014 Pop it in your ear while you're doing the dishes and you will 498 00:28:18,014 --> 00:28:20,084 hear personal stories of loss. 499 00:28:20,594 --> 00:28:24,614 And also my favorite and the one that I do really encourage people. 500 00:28:24,994 --> 00:28:30,544 To think about is do a little inventory about who do you know has experienced 501 00:28:30,544 --> 00:28:33,994 loss, and invite them into a conversation. 502 00:28:33,994 --> 00:28:38,284 Now, I wouldn't recommend you pick somebody who is, you know, only a 503 00:28:38,284 --> 00:28:40,924 few weeks into their loss because they're gonna be dysregulated. 504 00:28:41,184 --> 00:28:41,344 Sure. 505 00:28:41,344 --> 00:28:45,094 And they won't be able to give you sort of wisdom and perspective, but 506 00:28:45,464 --> 00:28:49,564 somebody who's maybe two or three years into a loss and ask them the 507 00:28:49,994 --> 00:28:51,934 questions that come from a curious mind. 508 00:28:52,264 --> 00:28:53,974 What did someone do that was helpful for. 509 00:28:54,949 --> 00:28:58,009 How could your work have supported you better? 510 00:28:58,399 --> 00:29:00,079 What was the thing that was the hardest? 511 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:01,939 What was the thing that was the most painful? 512 00:29:02,029 --> 00:29:04,369 And just, yeah, take in that information. 513 00:29:04,369 --> 00:29:06,409 Those conversations are not hard to have. 514 00:29:06,679 --> 00:29:09,949 And when we talk about being grief informed, those are the building 515 00:29:09,949 --> 00:29:11,449 blocks to being grief informed. 516 00:29:11,959 --> 00:29:12,049 I 517 00:29:12,049 --> 00:29:12,289 love 518 00:29:12,289 --> 00:29:12,529 that. 519 00:29:12,709 --> 00:29:18,259 And what I'm really hearing, what I'm really hearing you say, Megan, is we 520 00:29:18,259 --> 00:29:21,859 need to stop being afraid of grief. 521 00:29:22,339 --> 00:29:23,329 Stop being afraid. 522 00:29:24,499 --> 00:29:30,649 Ask the questions and to have a relationship with grief by 523 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:35,840 reading a memoir, listening to a podcast, asking someone how they're 524 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,789 doing, speaking someone's name. 525 00:29:38,929 --> 00:29:44,779 All of these things like we have to get over our uncomfortability with it. 526 00:29:45,694 --> 00:29:47,644 In order to truly shine a light on it, 527 00:29:48,664 --> 00:29:54,514 it's also self-serving because literally the only thing that we will all be 528 00:29:54,519 --> 00:29:56,554 one day in our lives is a griever. 529 00:29:56,614 --> 00:29:56,884 Yes. 530 00:29:56,914 --> 00:30:03,784 I mean, it is the thing that ultimately stitches us together as human beings 531 00:30:03,789 --> 00:30:07,594 and underside, you know, underneath the concept of grief is love. 532 00:30:08,254 --> 00:30:13,564 So, It doesn't serve us to stay in the discomfort. 533 00:30:14,014 --> 00:30:17,944 And there are lots of things out there that we, every single day 534 00:30:17,944 --> 00:30:19,774 of our lives, Ooh, that's awkward. 535 00:30:19,804 --> 00:30:20,884 Oh, that's uncomfortable. 536 00:30:21,214 --> 00:30:22,414 And then we push on through it. 537 00:30:23,494 --> 00:30:23,674 Yep. 538 00:30:23,704 --> 00:30:25,774 So as an ethos, you know? 539 00:30:25,864 --> 00:30:26,254 Yeah. 540 00:30:26,254 --> 00:30:30,334 We don't, Being afraid of it is not serving anybody. 541 00:30:30,394 --> 00:30:33,184 And ultimately, you know, if you're not someone who's currently 542 00:30:33,184 --> 00:30:37,054 grieving or have the experience with grief, it benefits you. 543 00:30:38,060 --> 00:30:41,689 You will be taking some of this information in just for yourself. 544 00:30:41,689 --> 00:30:46,939 Nevermind, you know, your colleagues or your children, but for you. 545 00:30:47,479 --> 00:30:48,800 Yeah, absolutely. 546 00:30:49,129 --> 00:30:53,689 And Megan, you have a, a gift for our listeners today. 547 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,269 Um, these, uh, grief mates. 548 00:30:56,449 --> 00:30:59,989 Um, can you tell us a little bit about that and how that process will help 549 00:30:59,989 --> 00:31:03,169 someone get more comfortable with grief? 550 00:31:03,889 --> 00:31:04,369 Yeah. 551 00:31:04,369 --> 00:31:08,629 So for people who are actively grieving or are grief adjacent, so 552 00:31:08,629 --> 00:31:12,939 there's a, there's a story that is close to them and, and that they're 553 00:31:12,944 --> 00:31:14,299 having their own feelings about. 554 00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:17,359 So maybe the event didn't happen to you, but it happened to your wife. 555 00:31:18,199 --> 00:31:24,169 That I have a, a grief writing workshop that is, um, pretty much 556 00:31:24,469 --> 00:31:29,839 It's me with a, a little video comes out once a week and an opportunity 557 00:31:29,844 --> 00:31:32,119 to write with a writing prompt. 558 00:31:33,294 --> 00:31:37,309 . What grief mates really offers is the experience of sort 559 00:31:37,309 --> 00:31:39,229 of writing from the wound. 560 00:31:39,229 --> 00:31:44,779 You are in the pain and we give you time to pause with with prompts. 561 00:31:44,779 --> 00:31:47,090 Some of the prompts are, you know, describe a holiday 562 00:31:47,090 --> 00:31:48,439 that you spent together. 563 00:31:48,499 --> 00:31:50,389 Describe a trip that you went on. 564 00:31:50,779 --> 00:31:52,009 What was the funeral like? 565 00:31:52,009 --> 00:31:53,330 What do you wish was different? 566 00:31:53,330 --> 00:31:56,840 You know, they go right into the meat of it and we don't 567 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,279 ask you to share that writing. 568 00:31:58,309 --> 00:32:00,799 It can be, you can write the same word, 700. 569 00:32:02,134 --> 00:32:06,814 But within the prompt writing is also writing for proc for products. 570 00:32:06,814 --> 00:32:10,864 So we, some of it is process and some of it really is to share. 571 00:32:11,494 --> 00:32:16,804 And if you think about that as an arc, we're trying to take the words that 572 00:32:16,809 --> 00:32:23,979 are too hard to even bear to look at in the beginning and turn them into, A few 573 00:32:23,985 --> 00:32:29,989 sentences that we can use to share when people are asking about our experience. 574 00:32:29,989 --> 00:32:33,709 So when my mother first died, I couldn't, I literally couldn't even say the words. 575 00:32:33,715 --> 00:32:39,019 My mother died and now I have a really comfortable series of sentences 576 00:32:39,019 --> 00:32:43,459 that I can say about, you know, how she died and what that meant to me 577 00:32:43,639 --> 00:32:46,580 without it making me break into tears. 578 00:32:46,879 --> 00:32:53,224 So I use journaling as a therapeutic process and also, You know, like a yoga 579 00:32:53,224 --> 00:32:58,084 practice, something that we do regularly and can come to regularly to create 580 00:32:58,084 --> 00:32:59,644 that space that we need for grief. 581 00:33:00,454 --> 00:33:01,294 That's beautiful. 582 00:33:01,294 --> 00:33:06,364 And, and, and I like how this, this brings this concept full circle. 583 00:33:06,454 --> 00:33:09,544 You know, we've talked about the responsibility of the workplace 584 00:33:09,604 --> 00:33:13,954 and of leaders to create this grief inform environment. 585 00:33:14,614 --> 00:33:18,484 There's also a responsibility that a griever has to. 586 00:33:18,919 --> 00:33:24,619 Go through and do the work of processing so that they can speak and communicate 587 00:33:25,009 --> 00:33:27,049 what they're experiencing with others. 588 00:33:27,499 --> 00:33:31,539 And when we have both of those elements together, that's a 589 00:33:31,544 --> 00:33:32,659 really beautiful environment. 590 00:33:33,829 --> 00:33:34,909 That's exactly right. 591 00:33:34,909 --> 00:33:42,814 And again, you know, If my, if my hopes and dreams come alive, the notion, 592 00:33:42,905 --> 00:33:46,354 you know, that a, that a teenager who's going through puberty has this 593 00:33:46,354 --> 00:33:49,564 awkward phase where they don't really know what's going on, but other people 594 00:33:49,570 --> 00:33:51,274 can look at them and say, Keep going. 595 00:33:51,304 --> 00:33:51,995 It's gonna get better. 596 00:33:51,995 --> 00:33:52,715 It's okay. 597 00:33:53,104 --> 00:33:57,154 I know the acne's not great, but you know, Everybody has to go through it. 598 00:33:57,154 --> 00:34:01,114 That, that there will be a way to approach grief and loss in the same 599 00:34:01,114 --> 00:34:02,705 way, which is, I'm not afraid of you. 600 00:34:02,705 --> 00:34:04,324 You don't need to be afraid of this. 601 00:34:04,564 --> 00:34:09,755 People inherently and instinctively can figure out how to do it, and you can 602 00:34:09,755 --> 00:34:14,194 communicate as you're doing it, and I can communicate with you by asking the 603 00:34:14,194 --> 00:34:19,835 questions that both of those pieces will not be too much because, you know, 604 00:34:19,835 --> 00:34:22,505 we don't wanna hurt grievers while they're going through the process, but 605 00:34:22,505 --> 00:34:24,364 we also don't wanna leave them alone. 606 00:34:24,969 --> 00:34:27,009 And it's really hard. 607 00:34:27,009 --> 00:34:31,089 It's really tricky when what it feels like is your grief is being 608 00:34:31,089 --> 00:34:34,750 pathologized and that people are looking at you like you're somehow 609 00:34:34,750 --> 00:34:38,259 kind of failing at life because you're not doing that American dream thing. 610 00:34:38,259 --> 00:34:39,790 You're doing that American bummer thing. 611 00:34:40,599 --> 00:34:41,919 But it is a part of life. 612 00:34:42,129 --> 00:34:46,169 It's a part of life for everyone, and many, many people will tell. 613 00:34:46,745 --> 00:34:50,614 That the arc, the long arc of their grief did not turn out to be a 614 00:34:50,614 --> 00:34:54,154 bummer that they learned something about themselves, that they created 615 00:34:54,154 --> 00:34:56,015 things that weren't otherwise there. 616 00:34:56,375 --> 00:34:59,404 So the more communication, the more hope we're gonna end up 617 00:35:00,435 --> 00:35:02,225 discovering in the process, I think. 618 00:35:03,635 --> 00:35:05,015 Yeah, and I can attest to that. 619 00:35:05,615 --> 00:35:06,245 Yeah, me too. 620 00:35:06,245 --> 00:35:11,764 Well, Megan, Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. 621 00:35:11,794 --> 00:35:17,314 Uh, I really, truly appreciate it and, uh, and these ideas are fantastic. 622 00:35:17,734 --> 00:35:21,214 We will link in the show notes where people can find more about you. 623 00:35:21,694 --> 00:35:26,854 The, uh, podcast Grief is my side hustle and, uh, grief mates as well. 624 00:35:27,365 --> 00:35:28,924 Megan Jarvis, thank you so much. 625 00:35:28,955 --> 00:35:29,705 Appreciate your time. 626 00:35:30,004 --> 00:35:31,205 Thank you so much, Jacob. 627 00:35:31,205 --> 00:35:33,184 It's always so lovely to talk to. 628 00:35:35,809 --> 00:35:40,129 You know the biggest lesson that I learned today from Megan is that grief is 629 00:35:40,279 --> 00:35:48,049 universal and we all have a role to play, whether we're an employer and we are the 630 00:35:48,054 --> 00:35:53,479 ones responsible for our staff in creating an environment that is grief informed 631 00:35:53,660 --> 00:35:57,439 and really truly makes accommodations for the grief that someone faces. 632 00:35:58,010 --> 00:36:04,010 Or we're a griever and we need to learn how to process our grief and to be 633 00:36:04,010 --> 00:36:08,960 able to communicate it in a way that's helpful for others in the workspace. 634 00:36:10,250 --> 00:36:16,429 In any case, we all have a part to play, and the biggest thing that we can 635 00:36:16,429 --> 00:36:22,760 do to make this process easier is to just talk about it, to shine a light on 636 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,200 it and use this universal experience. 637 00:36:27,649 --> 00:36:31,399 To grow closer as a community and as a staff. 638 00:36:32,540 --> 00:36:33,559 Thank you for tuning in. 639 00:36:33,649 --> 00:36:34,880 I appreciate your time. 640 00:36:35,389 --> 00:36:38,809 If you had any tangible takeaways from this episode, I would 641 00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:40,549 really appreciate your feedback. 642 00:36:40,910 --> 00:36:46,219 Please take a screenshot, share it on your social feed, or send me a message 643 00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:47,960 and let me know what you thought of the. 644 00:36:49,174 --> 00:36:51,934 Thanks so much for being here, and until next time, be well. 645 00:36:56,705 --> 00:36:59,674 Thanks so much for listening to Passion and Profits Without Burnout. 646 00:37:00,035 --> 00:37:03,035 I hope that you found some impactful takeaways, and if you 647 00:37:03,035 --> 00:37:04,444 did, I'd love to hear from you. 648 00:37:05,059 --> 00:37:09,410 Share a screenshot on your IG story, tag me or send me a quick message. 649 00:37:09,710 --> 00:37:13,160 This show is for you, so any feedback is welcomed. 650 00:37:13,399 --> 00:37:15,889 Hey, and make sure you're also subscribed to the show so you 651 00:37:15,889 --> 00:37:17,479 don't miss any of our new episodes. 652 00:37:17,839 --> 00:37:20,689 And if you could take a few minutes to leave me a five star review, 653 00:37:21,139 --> 00:37:22,099 that'd be greatly appreciated. 654 00:37:22,410 --> 00:37:25,069 Thanks for listening and be well.