When we come into manhood, 17, 18, 19, we're

The work is this cliche thing that everyone talks about. That work

has just been vulnerable. What are your weak points? Now I'm starting to go to court

and meet this six-year-old kid that I have no real bond with.

When they're kids, it's hard for them to work this stuff out in their head.

Yeah. And my world come crashing down. Mid-30s, some tried

to take my business off me. I'd had mistrust for everyone. The suicidal thoughts

are getting pretty heavy now. It's okay to feel that way. You've had some shit happen. Yeah. But

you can't stay there. I'm a fucking normal dude that went through normal shit and

stuffed up normal families and hurt people that really cared for

How long did you sit in this shit spot before you were like, look,

not going to be here much longer if I don't do something? Welcome to

And we're just a pair of average blokes on a mission to try and be

We're going to speak about all things highs and lows of what it feels like to be a

bloke, plus speak to some legends along the way about what it takes to be a better bloke.

Welcome back, guys. Another episode of the Better Bloke podcast. And we're

sitting here with longtime BA member and early supporter of the

Welcome. Thank you. Appreciate you having me, man. And yeah, doing

really well. Thanks for coming in and taking the time to just sit down and

Yeah, my pleasure, man. You guys are doing

a great thing. I don't know, we

just sort of briefly spoke behind the scenes about this, but it's an

honour and it genuinely is. I know we're just blokes sitting

down talking, but at the same time, it's

always been behind the scenes, right? You're behind a keyboard, you're behind

a thing. So yeah, it's cool to be sitting here, living the actual The

I'm getting it done. We've had a bunch of feedback over the course of what we're

40 something episodes in. We've had some world champion boxes, professional athletes,

Yeah. But none of them wrapped the van. There

is that. None of them a big deal, right? Like now this is the pinnacle. We've

peaked. Or

We'll get into the van in a sec. But. we have

had feedback, like get some more relatable blokes on. Because that's

what we are. We started this thing by saying, we're just average. Like

we're doing some stuff, but we're just like the

So yeah, it's good. And you messaged me a couple of days ago saying like,

oh, you know, I appreciate it. And I'm sort of stoked to be on this couch.

It was a bit of a joke. But now we want to jump into sort

of the averageness of all of us and the relatability of

Definitely average, stereotypical Aussie bloke.

Married, divorced, you know, like there's been through some shit, right?

I'm 47. That was hard to say. I'm 47. You

look good for 47. Yeah, it's because I act like a child. Obviously. There's

actually power to that. That's the secret. Yeah. I've got

siblings and friends at 40 and they were just like packing up, oh, I'm

retired. And I'm like, what are you doing? We're just warming up. Like now I

know things, like let's go do something. So I started

as a mechanic in Blacktown in Sydney and

even that was like a weird way to start. I didn't do dealership stuff.

I was already in a little workshop getting 50 bucks a day and

thought I was getting my mechanic license but I was just getting cash. It was like

completely from sort of how's that kid moved into

mechanics because I love cars. That business got

sold and I quickly moved into window tinning because I was like, I'm not

doing this work anymore. You know, I'm an independent young man. And

I just walk around, I'm like, I don't have a job. Cool. Impulsive thoughts,

always following forward. You know, I want to, it was all about feeling as opposed to,

so I sort of navigated my way through different things. window

tinning sort of took over. And then once I got to maybe

25, I started to go like, I'm actually belong

here, right? It was like my first, I was listening to the pods last night,

like first tribe, like I felt a belonging, you

know, and I was like, I'm a good window tinner. I'm a, you know, and that kind of built. Before

long I'd employed the guys that had taught me. And then I was like, I'm

a business guy. I was a soft trader, just like with subbies and

Early entrepreneur. That's what they call it these days. Yeah. And then

I remember 2008, we were working in Prestige dealerships and there was

like the global financial crisis, right? You know, US collapse. And

I was like, I'm going to lose all my businesses. You know, I was still at

the same ABN for the record, but it just, business

kept going, right? We just kept working, adapting and fast

forward another five or six years. And there was always like, I

got married, I got trials and tribulations in there as well and

bought a house and just slowly chipping away at the dream, right? The

Aussie dream. Then it really

moved into some core fundamental things

that I was still a household kid, like still didn't belong, still

didn't have a relatable, like imposter syndrome

for days, right? I never really believed it in a sense where

I wouldn't go and do something because of the imposter feeling, you

know, where I'd fake it till I make it. I'll go in there and I go, yeah,

I can tint 20 cars a day. And you know, my record was like seven. And

I'm like, I'll just work it out. I'd go in

there and I'm like, I just worked 24 hours, I can do 20, you know? And then it got faster and

I got better. And I started going, hang on, if I get more people,

you know what I mean? Just a little problem solving as

a bloke, a problem solver, pragmatic thinker. Didn't think

about the wife not getting any attention. The business

took precedent. These dealerships really needed

me to actually be part of a solution for them.

And that was the only thing I'd put at the front. So balance was never there. My

health had dropped because I'm focused on work. So then I'd focus on health, my

work would drop. I'd never really focused on a relationship. My

ex-wife was like super ambitious herself.

So we're sort of both aiming in that direction. then I had

no attention. So then I was like looking for outside validation, right? So

I'm like trying to tune chicks on the side as a 20 something year

old and just doing stupid things, getting stupid results,

right? Now I'm creating pressures and self-sabotaging all the things that I

never understood why, because I was still chasing that feeling. All right, so I

was like, okay, we can tint 20 cars a day, let's go for 21, because I

need more money to fill that void, right? None of this was like

actively aware of it, you know, I was just literally doing the motions. get

into my 30s, cracks at solid now, right? I'm

not manipulating my situations together. I'm not holding walls

up. I'm not holding this facade of like, I've got all my shit together and,

you know, struggling to pay for a house or struggling to living beyond my means, all

those things. And we paint this persona of

ourselves to a point where it's, It's our actual

being, you know, like, so in my head, trying to manipulate a

picture where you guys would say, oh yeah, he's squared away, he's got all his shit together, he's

a nice car, you know, he's got nice clothes, he goes out to dinner, he's living

this lifestyle. And I'm like sitting there going, I

can't afford to pay for that. I can't afford to do this. I can't, you know, or

I'll pay for it with shit I shouldn't be paying for it with, you know? So it was always just

So from an outside perspective, looking in, like you had all your shit sorted, but

And I was kind of flying the flag too for like, man, I come from nothing, you

know, like, but I'm talking it up and projecting it,

not actually leaving it. Right. Cause I hadn't actually dealt

with any of the skeletons in the closet. And, uh, Moving

to breaking up, I even self-sabotaged the divorce because,

you know, it kind of come down to a point of, I didn't

want kids. In amongst all of that too, I got

a girl pregnant and she said she'd actually terminated the

baby. We were young, young, like, Jaden was born when

I was like 18. So, and she was 17. So it

was this, going through like the family court

battle, right? I just wanted, I didn't want custody. By

the time we were in court, it was like, he's four or five years old. I wasn't allowed to see him, you

know? And then there was like, there was no violence or ABOs or anything, but

it was a troubling time. It was just that

ongoing trauma of like, I've got to go to family court. And

she just wouldn't show up, right? And then you're like, I got to give her another

chance. So then you're still working and still trying to navigate all these things. Now

I'm starting to go to court and meet this six-year-old kid. that I

have no real bond with, right? And I've got

the compartmentalised yearning of a

dad, but I've also gone like, I've got to find a way to navigate life without

him in the picture. After using all

my resources, my ex-wife to help me through that whole thing, money, her

family, everyone was sort of, you know, but I was still receiving presents. His

birthday, his Christmas, and I was like, can you guys stop? Like,

I think this is the, you know, I can't, I've got to focus on

my life and one day I hope he finds me. I'll

Cause we're jumping through your life like quite a lot. It'd be cool to like

have a look at one thing at a time, really unpack

it. So if we, if we want to go there, so

that happened when you were real young, you said like 18. So say you're about mid

twenties by the time, you know, you're in court trying

to deal with this situation, which sounds like it was at a similar time you

So a lot going on, especially for a guy in the mid twenties. Yeah.

Do you remember like, was it very reactive rather

Impulsivity. If you Google it, it's there's me with it. Right.

I was pretty, um, uh, because, and it

was a really good point you bring up. I actually really

relied on those positive feelings. Right.

So being impulsive, being reactive. So if,

Somebody had attacked my integrity for not having my son. I'd never let that

happen to me. And I was like, fuck you, you're not in my, sorry. You're

not in my being, you know what I mean? So fair

to say, I remember, right? Because there was a lot of outward

pressures of what I should be doing and how I should be handling it, right? Without

any of those guys leaving it or girls or whatever influence. To

chase him and battle that, now remember

there was a, he hadn't seen me since he was six months old, right?

Outside of a courtroom that I'm the enemy on the other side of the room, right?

So, and even then it was maybe three or four times. And

it was never, it would never been like, oh,

that's your dad over there. You know what I'm saying? So he had a stepdad and

he had siblings by this point. So he's sort of like, why do we have to go do

this stuff? And I don't think he remembers much

of it, but At that same time,

I've got all these successes in my life. So I

bought my first home. Growing up, I never thought I'd be good enough to own

a home. That was like that lack of self-belief. My

ex-wife said it to me one day, she's like, so where do you want to buy your first house? And

we'd been together for years, and I was like, I'm a renter. You

know what I mean? Like I'd already, and I thought it was- That's that house kid

mentality. Because you're told that, like you're growing up, right? You're like,

you're part of that group. You're part of that tribe. You're never, you're

never leaving that. And the look on her face, I'd

never seen such disappointment in a human when I was like, I was speaking facts

from my perspective. She's like, what am I doing here if

you never want to buy a house? And I was like, well, you know, you

know, you know the thing, we're not allowed to buy houses, right? We're not allowed, you

know, we don't deserve any of this stuff. Success

versus trauma, right? You know what I mean? So it's all perceived

success, right? Or growth. That impulsivity to

chase the good feelings, the, all right, I'll just focus on

houses and forget about the noise, which is trying to deal

with, you know, not having access to my son. So that

comes undone eventually, right? Not having the skills to

even face it. I wouldn't, family court was where I fixed it and I kept losing.

not thinking that I had an option. Just

because you don't think there is, there's, and which you guys are like living

and breathing this, right? Showing you might not have the skills to deal

with the problem right now, however, there's access to people

that do have those skills, right? Or do have the information that you're looking for.

If we go and Google it, we might get some charities along the way, but it's kind

of their ranking in Google AdWords as opposed to the

solution I'm looking for. How do I Google? I can't get my

son after five years of fighting for him. And they're

like, oh, well, just work hard. And I was like, this is all cliche shit.

I was like, it's textbook stuff. It's OK.

I'll navigate it myself. Ten years later when the,

you know, it was time for my wife at

the time to still now go, I think I really want kids now. And, you know,

I went, oh, no, no, we made this deal. I've tried that. It

didn't work. Right. And non-negotiable because I hadn't still

seen him. So now he's getting on to sort of 13 or 14 years old. I

hadn't still seen him, hadn't connected with him. I hadn't dealt with any of that trauma, I

wasn't gonna revisit it, right? And that was a non-negotiable for

me at that point. It's just classic bloke shit of how to deal with

something coming up. Yeah, I'll work harder, I'll hide at work. I'll

Do you think even if you weren't recognizing it so much as

trauma at the time, that kind of served as the motivation for

you to work so hard? Because you briefly went over it

at the start. By the time you were 25, you quickly moved into employing the

guys you were teaching. Which, you know, implicitly implies

you took all this risk and you probably worked way harder

than everyone around you. There was obviously a lot of

discipline and motivation and, I don't know, relentless pursuit.

I think dropped the discipline out of that, because I was chasing

feelings still, right? So there was that relentless pursuit, because I

couldn't fail. I couldn't fail again. That feeling of failure was

the drive, as opposed to knowing that it's discipline. I

didn't get up and square away in what we classically think

of discipline. I think John Coe-Willink or something. And

I was like, I wasn't that guy. I was like a roll out of bed, and my hands are sore. But

yeah, grit your teeth and get to work, right? That was always the shut

up and get after it. That intensity, though, also carried into my

work space. So having a work culture, the

guys that worked with me had to fit in that grind

mentality, because it was the only way we'd get through it. When somebody would

come in with feelings, we were like, shut the fuck up. You don't fit. Like, man,

if you're going to be a sook, don't be here. Regulations

these days wouldn't allow me to employ those people. I'm

partly thankful for those sort of things. Sorry, partly

responsible for those sort of things that are in place

now, like workplace bullying. If somebody was

like, I'm tired. I'm like, shut up. You're doing hours of overtime, but

you're earning it. you're also reaping the rewards. You know, I used to always shout

lunches. I used to, you know, that because they were my motivations,

you know, that money and we're getting this and everyone else is like, man, I

want to be home by four. All right, cool, Dave, you can go home at four. Right.

And then, you know, these are all hypothetical names, but you know, Steve

has to stay back because he was lazy last week or whatever it is. Right. But

there was this like nearly a militant style, uh,

You had to work harder than anyone else. I had to be

It's very much like a lead from the front. Like, this is my operation. I'm

With zero business skills, right? You mentioned it before. I'm an entrepreneur. I got an

ABN. I probably got the ABN two months afterwards going

like, what's that even for? Because

I could tint windows. I just want to tint more windows. So

doing those sort of things, and it was also the skills of

people management. You know what I mean? I'm a people person, I'm a people pleaser.

So I wouldn't say no to work. I would always say yes

and then try and deal with it, right? And once again, it was that mentality. And

I'm like, I'll outwork anyone. I'm not smarter than anyone. And

I respected, I even had these employees that I had were

mates and things above being an employee. That was

the form of payment, right? And I used to make a little bit on top of

doing that work. I made way more money when

I got rid of them or when it dissipated. When my world

come crashing down mid thirties, then they'd all left and

they'd moved on. And some tried to take my business off me

and took contracts and all these things. And there was all these

crumbling sort of blocks from a build up. I was

like, I'm back to homeless, like back to nothing.

So let's talk about that. I think we kind of

established that you build up this life kind

Think of spinning saucers, you know, that, you know, they've

all got like sticks and they're all spinning. That was a lot of

Yeah. How quickly did it sort of come crashing down

and did that cause you to really reflect

and sort of learn about why that all happened or did that come much later?

It come a little bit later, I really had to fuck it up on multiple

levels first, right? I went...

I'd sabotage friendships, and I had mistrust for

everyone. Even my understanding of trust was different than yours.

For you to trust Rob, you would just

go, you know Rob's being and what his driving forces are, and you'd know

what things you can trust him with, to a core. You're like, good bloke, trustworthy.

Trustworthy to me was like, if all the things align, We're

good, right? So I had this different understanding of trust just because of all the

letdowns and all these things. So my trust to other people and

what people could trust me with were different because now I'm going into survival mode.

I like lost all the accounts. I didn't want to tint windows anymore

because that was a, you know, it's such a long another 10, 15 year

hike back up. And I didn't

want to talk to my friends anymore because now I had to own all my shit. I didn't

have all the cars, the toys, the bikes, the boats, the house, We

had a five bedroom house, no kids, five bedroom house, pool, quarter acre, all

this. What was I doing with all that? I remember selling the house,

I go, I thought it was four bedroom. Because none of it actually

mattered, it mattered on paper, it mattered as a perspective. And

even like through the divorce and sold the house, I was like, so where's all the money?

She's like, we owed on that, you know what I mean? Like we're

25 grand down, I was like, ah. So there's no money? Is that what you

mean? So all that worked, so that sort of come crumbling. Then

any indiscrepancies I had, you know, somebody come out of the woodwork and

basically dobbed me in for anything I'd ever step sideways doing. In

retrospect, it was the best thing that ever happened, right? At the time, I'd

lost all my friends. They now thought I was a piece of shit. They now thought

it was all my perspective, right? I've still got

people at my door going, hey, you good? And I'm like, yeah, this is nothing. You

know what I mean? I'm now renting that I can't afford. Even

the house I was renting was way within my means. I'm still at it struggling. And

so after all this, and I'm losing it all, I'd sold the motorbike because I'm

trying to pay back the ex-wife. Her and her family sort of supported and covered everything.

You know, now I've lost that network, that support crew. I've

started isolating myself. Things are getting worse. I was drinking. Thankfully,

I never got into any sort of drugs or anything. You know, I don't know where it would

go. The only thing I couldn't find

a solution for to really disappear off the radar and

potentially like the suicidal thoughts are getting pretty heavy

now. I'm starting to go like in a pretty deep depression, trying to

get some therapy. And I'm like, I don't know if I'd even last to the next, you know,

they're like, do you want to book for two weeks? And I was like, anything sooner? I don't

know if I'll last two more weeks. Like I can't see that far ahead. And

What do you think really spurred that on? Was it that

all these things that you'd assigned value to, the house, the business,

I felt like I absolutely had no value

on the planet. You know what I mean? And I'm finally found out

that I was such a cost to the world, right? I was

a burden on everyone, right? I've got nine siblings. They

love me to bits, but I was like, you can genuinely convince

yourself that you're actually better off. And so

I've got a lot of empathy for those thoughts. There

was just times where I was like, it doesn't, still doesn't pragmatically make

sense. I was like, cause if I lost any one of those, I

am in a worse place. And I actually, there was a point where

I gave up and I physically said to myself, I was sitting in a garage in

this house in North Parramatta. It wasn't even my area,

right? I'd isolated myself that much that I moved. I'll move closer to work. That

was my excuse to myself. And, but I

wouldn't want to show up to work, you know, but I was, people can't find

me. I don't have to deal with these problems. And I was sitting in

that garage alone. And I remember looking, and I looked at my dog at the

time, shout out to Bullseye. He was a, I

always give him credit for keeping me alive because I was like, what am

I going to do with you? I can't leave you. That's not cool. You

know? And it was, it was nearly that, moment

right then when I looked at him and I was like, I can't do

it anymore. And I'm talking to the dog at this point, because

he's still just like, I'm still pretty hungry. Could you hook us up?

And so there's like this bit of humor that would keep me going, this tiny

bit of hope, where he's looking at me, he's like, yeah, who would feed me? I

kind of had this thing

where I'm pushing, going, I've got to be OK for that. Then

when I woke up the next morning, I had a different perspective. I

went, I hadn't spun myself into a spiral of those thoughts.

I was feeding my own demons. You hear

all these cliche things like, don't do this, don't do that. Well, you need

a skill set to replace that. So you go, that

was a learned train of thought. I

could perfect my depression. I was really good

at it. I'm a creative person. I can dig in deep, I can

be really focused and hyper-focused, but if I'm hyper-focused I'm

negative, then I'm getting those results. going

to talk to someone and I mentioned all

this to him, this therapist. And he goes, now when do you feel like

shit? That's fucking terrible. Like you've

had a shitty run. And I was like, really? Like, I'm allowed to feel

like this? And he goes, oh yeah, and we'll fix it. You'll get through this. And he was so

like nonchalant about it. And I got goosebumps now thinking

How long did you sit in this shit spot before you were like, look,

Too long, probably. Because there's

a part where I wanted to revel in it. You know what I mean? I deserved

That's crazy common. Like the amount of guys that start feeling shit

and they're like, this is my pain and my suffering for my

shitty actions. I deserve it. I'm going to take it. I

I think that's a transaction we've always had, right? If you do something shitty, you

But then there's also like a part of it where guys will, they'll revel in

it and that becomes their identity. So it's almost

like they'll then go, okay, I'm going to put this out to the world and say,

I'm feeling shit because of this reason. And because of how, I

mean, particularly social media works now, but it also happens in person, you'll

get a bunch of people going, oh shit. That's no good.

And so they start to get this emotional connection because

they're feeling bad. It makes them just want to stay in that zone.

It's not people going like, oh, you're allowed to feel that, but let's get over it. Like

that's what people need to hear. Like that therapist told you, like what

you feel is valid. It's okay to feel that way. You've

had some shit happen. But you can't stay there. We

Things take time. You look at the stages of grief. It's

not like something terrible happens and the next day, okay, I'll

be better if I just do these things. No, you need to take time

to sit in it and you are going to feel those negative things. Start accepting

it a little bit better. You start seeing a bit of optimism. You work on

it and then over a course of time, it does get better. but

it does take a little bit of time, especially when bad things happen. And

even if those bad things are a result of your shitty behavior, you're

Yeah, absolutely. And it was permission. One

of my brothers say, he's like, permission to be human. He's

like, I know how good you think you are. You're not that good. You

know what I mean? No one's that good. No, that's right. You can't just

like piss excellence daily. And it was just this whole

permission to start being, The very next sentence

he said to me, and he goes, all right, from today forward, let's be this other person. I was like, no,

no, the perception's already out there. Everybody already knows

who I am. And he goes, no, they know who you were. And I

was like, I couldn't get it at the time, because I was still like, eh, I've

tried faking it till I make it. This is where I landed. And he's like, no, no, this

is, who do you choose? And I was like, shout

out to my brother, Pat. He was the one that always went, If

I was sad Graham, hyper Graham, low Graham, busy Graham,

he was always like, Mr. Consistent. That guy just would

look at me and he's like, cool. Do you need anything? No. I'll see

you in three months, I'll see you in three days, whatever. You know, kept that same energy. He's

just, if I had a genuine decision

I had to make and I was hyper, I'd go, Paddy, can you give me a shout

back out on this? And he'd be like, let's work through the thing. You

know, he was very analytical that way. So really good yin and yang,

you know, cause I would hype him up and he's like, oh geez. And it maybe caught

me back after your coffee's worn off. But it was these couple

of people that were giving me influence in the right direction. And

I started having tiny little wins. And that win might

be that I smiled at the lady making me

a coffee. And it was a genuine one. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure she smiled

back. That was nice. Tiniest bits of gratitude and

Yeah. Okay. So I think a lot of our listeners are probably like, you know,

around that age, maybe a few of them feeling the same thing.

How, when you went into the therapy, do

you remember thinking, cause you were that tough, solve it yourself kind

Yeah, I was going to say, you seem to me like at that

Yeah, I'm just ticking the boxes. With you going

to therapy, what was the catalyst of you actually going,

hey, fuck, I need to sort something out and do this? Because obviously you've

spoken about how you sat in that space

and then you talked yourself into going, okay, well, I'm

allowed to feel good too. What drove you to actually going, okay, I'm

Uh, I kind of got tricked into it. There was a part of that. Uh, Under

false pretenses, there was like my ex-wife's going, let's do some couples

therapy. And she's actually like in the workers' compensation side of things. So

she does a lot of mental health work. I was always an advocate for

talking about anxiety. I've always had a

feeling of being in trouble for no reason. And all

I really thought was they just haven't found out the stupid shit that I've done.

So that's the anxiety around it, right? So they're trying to control situations

or manipulate a situation. Once

it got to walking into that door, I was like, I'll show him

how right I am about all these situations, you know, like I wasn't wrong.

I did used to always say to my ex-wife that she easily

made the right decisions. I go, I tried really hard

and made the wrong one, right? That was, you know, I go, I

thought I tried really hard, but really I was just chasing the

feeling, chasing those. Once I got

there and she wasn't always right in every conversation, we only did

two or three sessions, and then he cleverly just went,

I think I want to see you guys separately, right? You guys are a good team,

but I need to, I want to talk to you. I want to, obviously

I have no idea what happened there. We actually agreed to separate after that, like during that,

that whole period. And me talking and

working through that, I always had this person that had a zero non-bias,

easy conversation, but I

genuinely looked up, you know, if he asked me about window tinting or

vehicle wrapping or something like that, that's where I'm an expert. I'm

asking about mental health, he's the expert. So trust in that he

knows what he's talking about. I'm trying to outsmart him every

time, right? I'm still trying to manipulate situations and outcomes. And he's

just, he's like, yeah, I get why you're doing all this. And he'd walk

me down a path and he's like, but you're not gonna be fixed tomorrow. And I'm

devastated again. I'm like, I need that instant gratification. I need to be, I can't last

two weeks. And he's like, you're gonna have to. You know,

so there was like this levels of tough love. There's these levels of not

pandering to my needs and all this other stuff. And, but he

was teaching me things. And two weeks later,

he's like, how'd you go? And I was like, man, it was a few rough days in there. This

was better. You know, we're playing with medications. And I was like, I don't want to be on medication. And

he's like, why? What do you know about medication? I'm

like, I know the stigma around it. And I

was like, it's addictive. And he's like,

is it? what medications you're talking about? And I was like, yeah,

One of the greatest things that therapists can do is just lead you

down the path of you trying to explain your own thoughts.

and catching you into the point where you're like, that doesn't make

sense, does it? Makes no sense. And they haven't

So that's a really, really, I didn't wanna go to therapy and

find out that I'm wrong again. I've been told for the last year of

depression and anxiety that I am wrong. And I keep

stuffing up and I keep ruining all these relationships and making the

wrong calls. And I was like, I did so many things for

so right. The haters were also telling me, you're

going to fuck all this up. This won't last. They were right at

this point in my life. And it was where

he's like, no, no, there's no way you could have got this far without

your tenacity and hard work and perseverance. And I

was like, yeah, but look where it got me. And he goes, yeah, it got you to this point to level

So he gave you just the right amounts of validation for

And he said, start cherry picking. He goes, so you've got a bunch

of people around you that you really look up to, you brag about them. And there's

this bloke Skip that forced me into this. I sabotaged our relationship, he

was my best mate. He actually got this therapist and he

had him on his own, for his own things. We

see each other now and I'm like fully indebted to him. He's

kicking ass, but he cut me off. And

I fully respect it and appreciate it, right? Because I was now getting in

That's interesting. Cause we often talk about that. A lot of the boys sitting on

that couch will say to progress in life, you

need to cut out the people dragging you down. It's

not often that we've spoken to someone that's been on the other side of

that. So being cut off, but then now growing yourself

and recognizing why that happened. I think that's pretty powerful.

Yeah, I find myself driving and I want to shoot him, and I have. I've showed

him a message or a voice memo going, and I start choking as I'm

doing it. I'm like, man, I hope I made you proud. This kid's six

years younger than me. You know what I mean? I was a leader and

a mentor to him until I wasn't. And then

when it was his turn, he was it. And

I let him down the path of stupid decisions. I was like

this legend street fighter in my own head. I couldn't fight

for shit, but it was always an external validation. I

want to be the tough guy of the group. I want to back my mates and do all

this crap. They were like, you're the one starting it. You're

not the hero of the story, man. What are we doing here?

Oh, well, don't listen to that. I'll go to listen to the guy that says, yeah, man, you're a badass. And

I was like, all right. Cause it's, you know, it was validating these stupid, insecure

thoughts that I was having. So far from a therapist now,

right. And I never tried to be, but I went these professionals, Really,

really do get to a point where they lead you

down the path for you to make those decisions and none of the other

things make any sense, right? And that

you go that only the right decisions make sense because you're like, I don't want to hurt people.

I'm empathetic. I'm a people pleaser. So how did I end up

hurting everyone I know? Then everyone you know

comes along and goes, you didn't hurt me. You're amazing. I just want you to be happy. I

was like, yeah, that'd be great. Got any blueprints on that? Because

I can tint windows. You know what I mean? That doesn't make me happy. Having

the boat, the car, being the guy that can do a wheelie,

everyone's like, cool. But you're sad.

You know what I mean? That's not the outcome we want. So I

think having Therapy and then learning and

they teach you to see and learn gratitude gratitude

was one of the I Literally had to Google what

gratitude meant because I went I don't make a practice gratitude

I was like, what is it like a physical act, you know, and they're like no No, it

takes practice because you're practicing like the opposite you're

practicing Going you're not enough. You haven't had enough you haven't

done enough and every time you do try you fuck it up and

that was a self-belief system. So I would

try and make it look like I didn't do that, right? And that was my spinning

plates analogy. I was always trying to make sure that you thought

I was doing okay, and I wouldn't want you guys to connect because you're like, he's

kind of saying he's doing okay, but I think deep down he's got some dramas

he's got to deal with. And I'm like, hey, hey, hey, don't say that. No, I'm good. I'm good.

I talked to someone. I hadn't done the work, right? And the work

is this cliche thing that everyone talks about when they're doing therapy. That

work has just been vulnerable. Be honest with yourself. Like,

what are your weak points? Because a weak point isn't a bad

thing to have. It's actually a room for growth, right? And

I don't want to be like this cliche motivational guy, because I'm a fucking normal

dude that went through normal shit and stuffed up normal families and

hurt people that really cared for me and looked after me. there's

a result, sorry, there's an outcome there where you can be that hero

of the story and do what you love and actually make it easy. So

With your spinning plates analogy that you use and you

sat there spinning all your plates and

getting all up and down, once that all turned to shit and all

your plates fell down, After you've gone

to therapy, you've reassessed everything that's happened, you're feeling

grateful and you've got your gratitude in check. Did

you then take a step back and go, I've done this before, I

Probably a little bit sooner than that because I went, there

was this, that dog in me, that

cliche. Cause it was, I was like, I don't quit anything. You're

not going to outwork me. And I'll, you know, I also had these grandiose thoughts

that in two years time, I was like going to be rich again and do all these things. Yeah,

that wasn't the case. Cause I had some debt and I had some shit to deal with. Right.

Everyone's like, go bankrupt in seven years, you'll be clean. And I was like, that's not what I do. And

I didn't do it. That wasn't the smart thing. And the smarter thing would have been to go

some bankrupts perhaps. Right. Whatever. I chose a different path. For

me, it was work your way out, pay the

piper kind of thing, you know what I mean? That punishment I deserve, get

to work, that's the drive. And I think that was one of your questions was

like, what was that driving force behind those things? Was

to prove all the people that I thought I'd

proved right at that point of my lowest, proven wrong again,

right? Be a better version, be that. That's why

I openly admit to my indiscrepancies. because

I did them, I'm not them. You know, that Joe

Rogan podcast was a massive one for me because he would, same sort of

thing. He would just give you permission to be

you. You know what I mean? And he's like, you're not your actions. You

know, you're not your past actions. You are who you choose to be at this

point. That's how small the steps were. So my next action

was, do I go and mow the lawn like I should have? Do I go

and pay my rent like I should have? They were the smallest

actions that took

so much power to go and actually do. I didn't have the

guts to just go up and go, I've now got to face this person that

I owe $2,000 and I'm going like, here's 300. That's all

I got. I'm gonna do my best to get you the rest. Okay,

when do we expect the rest? And I'm like, I don't know. I'll

do my best. That's all I had. still

facing a lot of disappointment when all I wanted was now this return gratitude.

I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not that person anymore. I'm still that person dealing with all that shit.

So none of it was easy, right? However, choose

your hurt sort of things like all these little memes and things

that I used to use, I'd look into them and go, where's the

gratitude side on that? So putting a perspective If

somebody said, what is therapy to you in one word, it's perspective. Cause

I'm the same person with a different perspective. I was still, I

can be a person making shitty decisions and getting shitty results. I

can be that same person and thinking good thoughts,

trying, trying, had plenty of failures since

and stuff up since, but continually trying to

grow. And to where it's got me today

is, I don't understand. I

couldn't have ever mapped out where I'm at now for

levels of gratitude more than anything. Would be, do

I have any more? No. Still not even back in the property market. At

47 years old, you're like, not that far for a time. You might

want to get after it. I was like, yeah, it's on the list. It's

on the plan. I just follow that.

I don't wanna hit all the trust the process fucking cliches and all that, but it's-

Yeah, the perspective and that perspective drives your action.

And it's a accumulation of all those actions over time, which

I think what a lot of people don't give enough credit to is that

when we come into manhood, 17, 18, 19, we're

Yeah, we are. That's the thing. A man

is built, not born. Everyone's got a different pathway of

how they go through this building process and yours was

what we've just kind of discussed Yeah, and there is a lot of trials

and errors and fuck-ups. Yeah, but it's the process of recognizing

that building better Yeah, that's gonna turn

you into the man and you know, you've changed a lot over the last yeah 10 15 20 years.

To resilience, right? So there was even, for all that shit I went through,

there was even the, you were powerful

enough to deal with all that. Like, you know, there was those things and some people put

that back into religion. You know, you're being tested because you're one that can handle it,

those sorts of things. Well, it gave me the skill sets to

deal with the next 15 in a better fashion. You know, I've

now reconnected with my son, that relationship, we're best mates. Jayden's

like, I can't talk too much about him because I'll fucking cry about

it. And just out of how proud he makes me, he's now 28. And I've

got this 28 year old bloke that's on BA going like, yeah,

the boys, you know what I mean? Like just chasing the things where he's

been a man, he's got his own young family. And the asshole made me a grandfather at

39. I was like, dude, not

even 40. So you're a gilf. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

nice. And it's like the other side

of it too. I remember telling him, Even the thoughts

of the self-centered thoughts was nearly like that made

part of me. But I would say it first and

then I go, hang on, that's not the right thing to say. And the first thing I said was,

you asshole. And he was like, you meant to say congratulations. I

was like, hang on a minute, let's keep this about me. And I was like,

dude, I'm not 40. I've done the math and he was like, yeah, cool. Now

he's got four kids and you're like, He's like, man,

I want 10 and he works his ass off and he wants, and I was like, you are

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's also realistic. So I think he's sort

But, you know, he's, you know, I think that that probably speaks

volumes to like you guys reconnecting you going through your

journey. Yeah, that It's

like real cliche, the whole, you know, oh, it was meant to be this and

this and this, but like what you've gone through is obviously it's

helped you to reconnect at a later age, but then you're

obviously able to sort of pass down some of that wisdom and knowledge that you've got as

That part to me was wild. Because now think of it from my perspective,

right? I'd compartmentalized all that. I

got a message on Facebook going, fuck you. I don't know. You don't want to. And

I was like, sweet. That's my boy. You know, that was literally how it

This is the thing. A lot of guys, especially

in blokes advice we've seen, they've gone through a similar thing and they're disconnected from

their kids. And when they're kids, it's hard for them to sort

Yeah, maybe they've been told some bad stuff. Maybe they

just can't comprehend the whole situation. But especially when

they transition into adulthood, they become a man. They

start dealing with some of this same shit. It's like, oh, maybe

They start seeing it and I think as space to... And even the

genetics are so strong because then I met him and he's got my mannerisms. It's

like, what the hell? Nature over nurture is an actual thing. Yeah.

And there was a lot of that and he missed a lot. So

now when he would ask me something, he would say, I

think this way, like I'm thinking this way about a certain situation. And I was like, of

course you do. Because that's how I would think about it. And he goes,

but, you know, it was even points where he said he didn't feel like he fit in with

his siblings. He goes, it makes sense now. I'd

never throw heat on his mom, because she brought up who he

is. If anything, they deserve credit. We couldn't work

it out. However, moving forward, I'm like, man, you

better be proud of him. That's all I want for her. She's

still threatened by that I'm around again, right? And

I went, you're his mum. And his stepdad's

there and his siblings are all there. They're not going anywhere. I don't

want them to go anywhere. You know what I mean? And it was really easy for me. I was like, and

I'm not gonna waste my time talking with him about that stuff, right? Or

how I feel about a certain way. And to your

point, if I didn't go through all that, I don't know if I would have

accepted him the same, or we would have had the same connection, right? Because

I wouldn't have been able to have room for him to come in, because I was like, oh, this kind of looks

like I've got a kid that's, you know, he's from the hood and he's,

you know what I mean? He's not this persona that I was trying to paint to myself. Instead,

I was like, man, I'm so stoked to have you, dude. You know, and I don't know if

I would have been, I haven't dealt with my shit of

not having him, to be able to have him again. Like

there was this weird sort of, you know, cause I'd accepted that I'd never see him again

I think that comes back to that whole, like we were discussing about the man card and everyone's man

card. As soon as you turn 18, it's not, it's not all filled out where

like you had your man card filled out by the time you were early

thirties. Cause the only percent I'd taken from that was wiped.

So you had to redo your man card, which is fine, that

Yeah, man. Yeah. And that was, I didn't see it as an opportunity. I

thought I'd lost everything. Fast forward, I was like,

that was the best thing that ever happened to me. Like, how insane is that? I

lost everything is the best thing that ever happened to me. Cause I also

Yeah. I think the thing about you, which is really cool is, you

know, you have this like real masculine, hyper-masculine sense,

The grind hard, like you said, the boys have to fucking work. All

those things, people look at masculinity and sometimes go, oh.

I think it's toxic. It's a bit too much. But

then you've been able to incorporate, you know, you did the therapy, you

worked on yourself, you practice gratitude. Those two

things can coexist. That's important to note. And a lot

of people think they can't. And I think that's a takeaway that blokes

maybe fixating on all this early stuff need to realize they

can do this as well. It's not, they don't

I think that's such a point. I'm at the moment getting punched in

the face six days a week. I practice gratitude every single

day. I'm glad I ducked. I'm getting punched and

I'm punching. Some would say that's probably in

that toxic masculinity phase. but like

Look, I'm conscious of time. So I want to jump onto a segment that we do. It's

called bloke of the week. Where we look at bloke's advice, look at the group and

find some guys that have done something pretty awesome and try and

look at what they do. Now this week's bloke of the week is

He's a top bloke. Real good bloke. We

got hold of this van a while ago now and I wanted to get it wrapped up.

And I asked around and one of the boys suggested I

Good bloke. He said this guy's BA, he understands everything

about you. He's gone through some stuff himself. And

he's real experienced, real tied up in the scene, knows his shit with

the rap. I called you up. Reckon you

Yeah, and you let me do toxic I

still don't think shit's true

Yeah, but That was an

honorable part for me that was the yes that had nothing

to do with the work or any of the rest of it right it was it was a an

actual point of going, what an honor it would be

to be able to do that on a project. Because I wasn't doing it for you,

Yeah, literally, man. Because that's

an opportunity, not a burden. It's not a problem. It

was already a new business. We're already under the pump. We've got all these things. I

mean, I've been in the industry 27 years now, but it's like, yeah, cool. We'll

find that solution. That film, we had to import from the States because of

the color you wanted, of course, because he's like, look, it's no problem. It just needs to be

this color. I was like, yeah, no worries. Classic Matty. Yeah. And

then classic Graham going, yeah, no worries. I'll make it happen. Then I'm like ringing my

mates in New Zealand to get the code for that film because

we can't get it direct in Australia, right? And even our suppliers here,

they don't make that. I was like, they do. And I've already said yes to it, so

we need to find a solution. But that's

the audacity I have to say yes, and the

ability and resources to work it out. That's the

thing I'm confident in. You're like, is it going to be a smooth ride? Nah, probably not.

Is it going to be late? Possibly. But we'll get exactly what you want, when

you want it. And you're like, I've got the design sorted,

and I'll strip the van for you. There's

Yeah. And I was like, we got to crawl people down there, don't we? This is what we do

That really surprised me because you're such a manly man with

You said leave it in the sun and it'll come off easy. I left it in the sun. I'm

And then I gave it to you and you're like, it wasn't that easy. So

the boys down there were, yeah, they were like... I

go, how stripped were they? I wasn't there when the van turned up. And he goes, yeah,

now we got the guys on it. Yeah. But we got high pressure washers and we do it

I apologize for that. Massive gratitude. It's been so

good to have it all branded up and all that stuff. Bloke

of the Week, actually, this week is sponsored. We got a

Yeah, sick. Which is very handy because you have a luscious beard. Here's

a cracker. It helps because it covers half my face. This is going to be very

I'm super stoked on this. This is awesome. I've given a little pack

that you're going to be able to give good use to. It's got

It's got a comb, what else? A couple of soaps in there and stuff. It's

all local too. It's a mum and dad company. They're

Shout out to the Cowboy Grooming Co.

and to Bloke's Advice and to Better Bloke Project. It's not

just tick all those boxes. There's

also communication is key, right?

You have a support system around you. Those people that think you've fucked everything

up, you probably haven't. You know, to

different levels of having, like lean

back into the group. You guys told some heavy stories about, you know,

the DMs you guys get. You weren't built for that. You know

what I mean? It's not what you signed up for, but being resourceful,

building what you've built, traveling the country, putting on these things.

You guys still have to work every day. You still got families every day. You still got all of those things. And

not to switch it back on to interviewing you guys, but the

fulfillment you get from this, is that something you could never estimate

prior to doing any of it? Because you don't do it right to go, I want someone to say I'm

cool for helping that guy out. But the gratitude you

get from seeing that guy next time, and he's got a genuine smile, or

he went, hey man, I got a job, or thank you

for reaching out, because now I've got 10 people reaching out. That,

cause it's thankless, the job, but I go, now

that I'm training people in the industry, watching them gain skillsets

and provide for their family and do all these things. And I'm sort of make it grandeur. I'm

like 20% windows, but then watching him and

I go, add me on social media. Cause that's my selfish part. You know, I

got paid for the job already. And it was a transactional thing. For

me, it was that fulfillment of watching these boys build on,

they might've met you at their worst day. Then you see them at a

little bit better day and they're making good decisions. Then you see them have a hiccup. And

I was like, told you not to do that. Then they learn from it or they'll lean back

into you and go, hey, what do you think about this stuff? So there's

so many, I think it's really fulfilling. And do you get,

what do you guys get out of doing this? As

a general rule, do you get the fulfillment that?

I get the fulfillment out of it, but Even that

with guys saying thank you and that, it's sort of, I don't

expect it. So I don't really, I'm just like, oh, I would have done it

anyway. But I think the biggest thing that sort of, it

hits me in the feels is when the guys' partners come up and

they'll come and say thanks because It's a different transaction. It's

when someone that they love can see that those guys are

doing better. That's when they just go like, thank you for doing this. I

don't expect a guy to say thanks because I'm that kind of guy too

where I'll just be like, you give each other an order. That's

that. But it's when someone, when a loved one of

someone comes up to you and goes like, thank you so much. Like, you know, he's doing

this, he's doing this, he's doing this. That's when you go, okay, fuck what we're doing is it's

Yeah. And it doesn't, you know, we're not here to celebrate

it, but at the same time, like I think along the

way, some of those celebrate your little wins, you know what I mean?

And, and it was something that I got taught in the, you know, therapy did

help with that. It was just, You're not this burden on

society. You're not this burden in your family. They actually want you to

be happy. And I went from being that introverted,

because I didn't want to get, I was never really introverted, that's a big call. But

now to this, like, I can be center of attention, hell yeah. Because

I've got good things to share, you know what I mean, from learning those. It's,

yeah, it's a thankless, thing

you guys are doing, but we genuinely thank you from, and

I'll speak on behalf of all the boys down in BA, just

watching. Because it's now sort of this self, far

from self-monitoring, I'm sure you guys are moderating plenty of it.

I'm like, we've got it from here, boys. I'll put my

feet up. You've seen a chat thread. If you're out of line, you'll get

corrected. And if you're still out of line, you'll probably get

Yeah, pull your fucking head in. To

Yeah, yeah. On that note, we

got to wrap this thing up. It's been good chats. Thank you. First of all,

tell me about the business, what you do and where you can get

jobs done. So if any boys want to support the boys that are supporting us, it's

Yeah, I appreciate that. So, a big thing, come down and

see us, follow us on socials, Pervase, which

is P-A-V-I-S-E. We look after

window tinning, paint protection films, vehicle wraps, and...

Yeah, we generally do a lot of sort

of hypercars and supercars and all the cool shit, you know, so if you can usually say

a Lambo or something down there. And LDV vans, so they do it all.

That's, well, I wasn't going to, I was going to leave that to the top. That's kind of,

yeah. Supercars. Yeah. And we've been practicing for 27 years and now

We are down on Johnson street in the Gold Coast, so in Southport.

Yep, come and see Pervais and we will hook you up. Myself,

Joel Bryce, and yeah, look, I can't thank

you enough. Those boys said Graeme won't

shut up, so he's the one to definitely do the pod. I'm also

stupid appreciative of just being here. I've

seen guys like Jimmy Judge in here before and I was like, fuck, you know,

You bring so much shit to the table. Like, honestly, I can't thank you enough for

coming and sitting on this couch because what you're bringing relatability

was and like life experience for what you've gone through. is

Relatability is just through the roof. Our biggest podcast, I

think, one of the biggest would have been Angry Dad, who's

an older guy. He's been through the shit, so he can

But being an angry dad is also relatable at times, right? That's his

Everything about his relatability. But he's gone through the ups

and downs of the depression, the medication, everything. And

guys liked it. So I'm very excited to get your story out there. We

Yeah, which is wild. I was like, see you again next week,

On that note, guys, if you want to find out more information about the project,

head to betterblokeproject.org. That's where you're going to find events, all

the past podcasts as well, as well as you can donate to us and

help us with our mission of fucking off suicide as a leading cause of

As always, be better. Thanks for tuning into

today's episode of Better Bloke. If you got anything out of it, show us some love by

If you want to learn more about everything we're doing, head to the description, hit

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