0:00: I'm yet to meet anyone who doesn't really like money and most of us want more of it, particularly for our retirement benefit.

0:05: So I look at that and think, if you want more out of your retirement and you want to have full control and self-sovereignty and all the other wonderful things that come with it, then the only way to do that is to set up a self-managed super fund and buy and self custody of your Bitcoin yourself.

0:18: I am always of the opinion that buying now is going to lead to a lot less regret, because if you're asking that question of, should I buy now or should I dollar cost average into it, I'm not sure that we're gonna have.

0:29: A mega candle tomorrow, in a year's time, 10 years' time, whenever that might be, I don't know, but I do know there is going to come a point when someone with a money printer is going to press the buy button and we're going to see Bitcoin move 10x in the space of a month.

0:41: What are some of the strategies that you personally do or have done to accumulate Bitcoin?

0:46: Firstly, you need to get comfortable with the asset, you need to know it, so you need to study it.

0:49: To me, the fastest way of doing that with the least risk possible is exposing your superannuation to it, because it doesn't have a consequence today for you financially.

0:57: I'm Matthew Fraser, and this, Is Crypto Collective.

1:00: After making millions with Amazon and e-commerce, I realized that if I was starting again today, crypto would be my first choice.

1:09: I'm here to help you take your first steps and build real wealth.

1:13: Ready to set yourself up for life?

1:15: Let's go.

1:16: Alright guys, I wanna give a big shout out to Peter Dunworth, who's just joined us on the Crypto Collective.

1:21: Peter's the head of the Bitcoin advisor, an all-round good guy and a big Bitcoin evangelist.

1:27: Peter, welcome to the show.

1:29: Thank you for having me, it's a pleasure to see you.

1:32: Yeah, thank you so much Peter, I wanna start with these, I've got these famous quotes, Peter, and I've got Michael Sailor says, Bitcoin, there is no second best.

1:43: Hal Finney says, Bitcoin will survive forever.

1:47: Adam B.

1:48: Bitcoin is unstoppable math, simple, elegant, inevitable.

1:53: Peter Dunworth says Bitcoin will 100x within a decade, and Bitcoin's terminal is $1 billion per coin.

2:01: It's not a bet, it's math.

2:04: So Peter, in opening, are we still on track with Bitcoin to 100x within this decade?

2:11: I think without a shadow of a doubt, we've had some, I guess short-term volatility, we're 30% off previous all-time highs.

2:17: We're now under sort of $95,000 US a coin, which basically the world measures in US dollars, so I'm sorry if we're an Aussie-centric audience, but, I think well and truly we're still on track for 100x in the next 10 years and what we're going to see and what we've, What I firmly believe is that the rails are just opening up now for institutional adoption, for institutional investment.

2:40: There's a whole host of capital sitting on the sidelines or sitting in underperforming assets that are going to make its way through time into Bitcoin, and we can unpack that in detail if you want to, but, the too long didn't read of that is 100x is still within play in the next 10 years for sure.

2:55: Cos that's totally insane sort of numbers, I guess what I say to people though is, you know, when you go right back to the beginning.

3:02: You know, people were buying Bitcoin for $1.

3:03: No one ever thought it was, well, some people thought it was gonna reach $100,000 but of course that was considered totally out there.

3:09: And now we're saying 100x within 10 years seems legitimate.

3:13: What's interesting though, is you've got people right now who are moving their out of their superannuation fund into an SMSF and allocating to Bitcoin, and the average person, Peter, let's say, has got $500,000.

3:25: They could see, essentially a $50 million.

3:29: Superannuation fund within a decade, is that what you're actually saying?

3:33: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, that's what I firmly believe and that's what I'm budgeting on, I guess, past performance is no expectation of future performance is probably a very good mandate to use, but I can tell you we've been giving advice on Bitcoin since, well, for nearly 10 years now.

3:50: When our clients first started buying Bitcoin, they were sitting on, they purchased for under $1000 it's now sitting at $1700 it did get up to $190.

3:59: In the last, in less than 10 years, my clients have received a 200x return on their, on their, on their investment.

4:05: Now, do I think over the next 10 years with all of the tailwinds that we've got, we've got government regulation, government support, strategic Bitcoin reserves, we've got institutional capital allocation, we've got governments buying it for their foreign reserves.

4:19: Do I think it's expected that we'll have half the return in a longer period of time?

4:24: I think that's a fair assessment, and a lot of people just don't understand how powerful this technology is and, How needed it is globally.

4:30: , it was a perfect segue there, Peter, cos you talked about some of your clients.

4:35: You're the, the founder of the Bitcoin advisor, what what exactly is the Bitcoin advisor, what and what do they do, what problem do they solve?

4:43: Really simply, we help people procure and secure Bitcoin.

4:46: We help them basically move money into and buy Bitcoin, and then we help them store that for their future long-term wealth, and we solve arguably one of the biggest problems in Bitcoin, which is how to transfer your wealth upon death in Bitcoin.

4:59: And so, there's the legal framework that you've got to transfer your wealth, but when you use self-custody Bitcoin, and I know we're all big advocates for self-custody Bitcoin, there are a whole host of hurdles that you need to, Tick a box in order to successfully do that, because, if you don't, there's no legal framework, there's no government mandate, legal decree or court order, that can instruct the Bitcoin network to transfer your Bitcoin to your beneficiaries, and so this is where, this is why we have a job, that, in order to make sure you can, your your beneficiaries can access and actually use your Bitcoin on, on your passing.

5:35: There, there needs to be a framework for recovering that and that's where we've spent the last 10 years giving advice to people, not only to buy Bitcoin and safely self-custody it, but to prepare it in a way that is accessible to their beneficiaries on their death.

5:48: , amazing.

5:50: And so what's the case, Peter, of where, where that's actually come into play, where you've been able to step in and help someone out?

5:57: We've had a number of instances where we've, we've had to go through 4 probates now, and I'm absolutely thrilled to say to anyone listening that we have not lost a single bitcoin from a client who's passed away.

6:08: And the really easy way to do that is we do that through what we call collaborative security.

6:14: So clients have full self-custody, full control, they can, Whatever they want with their Bitcoin without our help, but if something happens to them and they happen to pass away or they're incapacitated, they have dementia or Alzheimer's or any other form of inability to transfer their coins, the beneficiaries of the estate can reach out to us, and this is one of the most important things that we give to all of our clients is what we call an estate plan protocol, which is how to recover your Bitcoin in the event that the client is no longer with us.

6:41: So the family can actually have this document is this document tells you everything you need to recover your Bitcoin.

6:47: But it doesn't tell your beneficiaries or loved ones how to move your Bitcoin and steal it from you, so I, I joke about that, but that, that's a very real problem for some people, but this is a way of employing professionals who have a whole list of legal requirements in order to, you know, to sign and transfer Bitcoin with the help of the, the beneficiaries.

7:06: But it, it solves a very key problem that I think a lot of people in Bitcoin typically overlook.

7:11: Yeah, I think, I think they do too, Peter, and it's great that you've got a service out there like that to, to implement because it is so important.

7:18: People are looking to, well, I think in my case, certainly, and a lot of people I know, hold Bitcoin for a, for a generational wealth type play to to pass it on to my children and my grandchildren.

7:29: And I think maybe some people probably don't think that far ahead.

7:32: They're thinking maybe the next one year or something like that.

7:35: But you said something interesting there before, Peter, about stealing one's bitcoin and the threat that I see right now, cause we're talking, you in that scenario I just gave of if someone who's got $50,000,000 in their super fund, which could grow to, according to your numbers, potentially $50 million within a decade, the threat that I see is actually government, and we've just seen, The Australian Labor Party, pulled back now on the unrealized capital gains tax, and I, and I will say from the outset, Peter, this was something that I was speaking very strongly against because I was doing the numbers too, and could you imagine having $50 million then having to pay unrealized gains tax to the Australian Labor Party, cause they're the one instigating this, and I, I'm seriously have already started the process of Plan B passport.

8:23: But now they've rolled it back though, but what, what are the new measures, maybe you might speak to this about the new, superannuation taxes that are now being imposed and how does that now affect people potentially who could get, you know, $50 million worth of, Bitcoin in their superannuation fund.

8:37: , firstly, I'd like to say thank you for all your hard work in helping abolish that unrealized capital gains tax.

8:45: I think you were one of the key voices expressing your disdain for that, and I, I really thank you for bringing that, that to light.

8:52: what they've replaced it with, however, is a series of tiered taxes in your superannuation that under $3 million there's no tax, over $3 million to $10 million gets taxed on realized gains at 30%, and over $10 million gets taxed at 40%.

9:07: And to me it's a, a bit of a hollow victory, the removal of the unrealized capital gains tax, because they're replacing it with the highest taxable rate across any of the structures that we're allowed to use in Australia.

9:19: So when it comes to trusts, trusts are taxed a lot less, companies are taxed less, and even your person, To hold it personally is taxed less than your superannuation fund and the, the problem I see with this is that this disincentivized people to invest in their retirement and remove the liability of paying for someone's retirement off the government books to take it on personally.

9:40: Now all of a sudden, the, the whole incentive structure has completely shifted.

9:44: Now there's no incentive for you and I to pay for our own retirement because we're gonna get taxed out the wazoo, if we're gonna do that and if we are really successful at it, we're gonna have 40%, Of our assets taken whenever we sell it, and under the Australian superannuation system, once you reach retirement age or once you start a pension, you have a mandatory amount that you need to you need to take every year, so, To put this into perspective, if you are on that highest tiered rate, which for a lot of lessons here, if you've got one Bitcoin in your superannuation and you're retiring in 10 years or more, my expectation is you're gonna get taxed 40 cents in the dollar, and when you're in a pension phase, you are by law mandated to sell down up to somewhere between 4 to 9% of your superannuation every year, which means if you want to take out 5% of your superannuation amount in, In, in, cash, you need to sell effectively 9%, because there's 40% or 4% of that 9% is going to go in taxes that need to be paid now.

10:39: So I look at this and think this still doesn't solve the fundamental problem that we have an incentive structure that is out of whack with what they're trying to achieve.

10:48: In, in less than one term, I think Jim Chalmers has effectively ruined the long-term outlook for Australia's superannuation system.

10:55: , yeah, I think so too.

10:57: There's even new talk, Peter, if I want to expand even broadly on this Labor Party and their attack on superannuation, and that is their talk about,, raiding superannuation accounts to use the funds, and I, and when I say it's not the government per se coming and taking the money, but they're persuading superannuation companies to invest in the government's own pet projects, things like green energy, things like affordable housing.

11:26: What what's, what's your take on that and what do you think the impact will be on, on superannuation funds?

11:31: It, it's very concerning for me that this is happening because, pursuant to the Superannuation Industry Supervision Act, the number one rule that that, that whole piece of legislation covers is the need to act in the member's best interests.

11:45: And so when you're a, a trustee of a fund, you need to invest that money for the benefit of members.

11:51: Now, for the life of me, I cannot understand how, An investment committee can say that investing in affordable housing or investing in green projects is in the member's best financial interests.

12:04: That seems like an oxymoron to me because as we've seen over the years, affordable housing is by, by the very name and the suggestion of a, a sub, sub-tier performance relative to what you can get in the market.

12:16: And when it comes to the projects, they're highly subsidized by the Australian government, and they're not the all, all of the green funds that I've looked at are, are not, set up with profit drivers in place, they're set up with more social constraints and, and social concerns to be adhered to rather than, An underlying profit motive and so firstly I actually wonder if this is even legal, for any of these superannuation funds to be investing in this, and this is what I would be pushing back on and something the superannuation industry has been looking at for, for a period of years.

12:47: Yeah, Peter, they're all in this together, you've got Wayne Swan who's the chair of Cbus, right, former Treasurer of Australia under the Rudd Gillard, Rudd years.

12:59: What is he gonna do?

13:00: He's in cahoots with Chalmers and the Labor Party, so he's now the head of this Cbus, what's he gonna do, he's gonna say, Chalmers, yeah, I think it's a great idea.

13:08: I'm just gonna to direct all my members' funds into the Labor Party's pet projects.

13:12: Nothing to see here.

13:14: I mean, it's an absolute joke, Peter, don't, I mean, what do you think that's that even these guys could actually be taken, you know, legal legal action taken against these guys?

13:24: Yes, if you read and understand the superannuation legislation, absolutely they should be taken to court.

13:30: For anyone investing in that, there's a case to answer that how is this in the member's best interests.

13:36: You, you don't pass the key test that you need to from a superannuation investment perspective, which is the sole purpose test.

13:42: I, I would love to see a lawyer, you know, twist themselves in knots to try and explain how investing in affordable housing, And sub-investment performance in, in green energy, or any, any of the green, initiatives is going to be in the member's financial best interest.

13:56: I, I just don't think it is, and this is where, you know, a message that I really wanna expand on or support that I know you've said over, over many months if not years, is the only way to protect yourself from that is to have a self-managed super fund and invest the money how you wish to, because that way you isolate yourself from or insulate yourself from I would say.

14:17: Some third parties basically making decisions with your money to subsidize initiatives that you may or may not be concerned with.

14:24: Yeah, and I just want to make this clear to the listeners now, because what what Peter's talking about is the government's looking to raid existing superannuation accounts, but they're held within the traditional superannuation funds.

14:37: And so if you move your superannuation out of those funds into your own self custody, and allocate accordingly, now I would obviously, We're on a Bitcoin show, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna say, do I do what I've done and allocate to Bitcoin, but of course by doing that, maybe you wanted to speak more broadly to that Peter, why people, from your point of view, should move into an SMSF and allocate to, which I think maybe you've even done yourself potentially into Bitcoin.

15:03: I think it comes down to a number of different things.

15:05: Firstly, there's self-interest.

15:07: You have the self-interest of having, Access to the best performing asset and being able to custody that yourself.

15:12: There's no other way in our superannuation system to get exposure to self-custody Bitcoin, than to have that in a self-managed super fund.

15:20: So that would be my first point.

15:22: the second point is it's the best performing asset over the last 15 years, and typically superannuation funds invest for the long-term.

15:29: So I think from a personal point of view, I see Bitcoin as the best investment in the superannuation space because for a lot of people, they can't access that for a 10 or 20 year period, which means that, you know, the way to get comfortable with the volatility of Bitcoin is to just extend the duration that or time that you're investing for.

15:47: So I look at that and think, you have access to full control of your money, no other third party can access it.

15:54: You are investing in something that has the best, Best returns of the past and I actually think it'll be the best returns over the next 20 or 30 years out of any asset class, and so, I'm yet to meet anyone who doesn't really like money, and most of us want more of it, particularly for our retirement benefit, so I look at that and think, if, if you want more out of your retirement, and you want to have full control and self-sovereignty and all the other wonderful things that come with it, then the only way to do that is to set up a self-managed super fund and buy and self custody your Bitcoin yourself.

16:24: Hm.

16:25: Wise words, Peter, wise words exactly what I've, I've, and can I ask you, have you done something similar yourself?

16:31: Have you bought Bitcoin in a in an SMSF or is there some other way you're buying Bitcoin?

16:35: Yes, I have, and, and I think to me that is the best entry point for anyone who's curious about Bitcoin and wants to allocate to it.

16:43: There is a cost of living crisis, there's unaffordable housing, there's a whole host of financial issues that are happening outside of the superannuation system.

16:50: To me, a lot of people don't want to take the risk on a volatile asset of money that's outside of superannuation, but with money inside of superannuation, a lot of people view that as a never never account that they're really never going to access.

17:02: So the way I think about it, the way I approached it personally was this is money that I can't touch for the next 20 years.

17:09: I want to allocate it to Bitcoin and my expectations are that that will be the best performing asset over the next 20 years.

17:15: At, at which time I can then access it, so it's a relatively low risk way of getting exposure to Bitcoin with a fairly large sum of capital.

17:25: Yeah, yeah, I think it's so, so important.

17:27: I actually say now, Peter, it's the life raft for people in this current, broken monetary system that we live in.

17:35: And I think for most people, you know, they can allocate to Bitcoin in their super, seems pretty, pretty straightforward or within their SMSF.

17:42: Even if they're not allocating funds into, into, outside of their SMSF, like they're in their personal name or, or some other legal entity, because, of course, they're thinking, I might need that money.

17:56: Which brings me round though Peter, we've said we're just gonna come back to this $50 million.

18:00: This is, this is gonna be the thumbnail, $50 million superannuation account.

18:04: But let's just say though, you're 40 years old and within, by the time you're 50, you're gonna have $50 million sitting in this account.

18:11: You, you now actually can't touch these funds legally until the age of 60.

18:16: I think, and I, and I also heard the other day that there's a lot of people who are moving out of Australia and taking their self-custodied Bitcoin with them.

18:25: Have you heard of this kind of pan epidemic, let's say?

18:29: Have, not firsthand though, and I think the difficulty with that is if you haven't reached preservation age with your superannuation fund and you do leave the country and take your Bitcoin, it is illegal and technically the ATO can come after you and sue you for that.

18:42: particularly if you're accessing it, there's fairly stiff penalties for that, and let's just say you're, you've got a balance of $2 million and you move offshore and then you take your Bitcoin with you.

18:52: There's a potential million dollars fine that the ATO can levy on you.

18:56: Which is fine if, well it's a 50%, basically a 45% in the dollar fine, and then there's a host of other fines that they can put on top of you for that, so the only system that I know of which is compatible to an ATM like a, a self-managed super fund or a superannuation rollover from Australia is New Zealand.

19:15: That's the only Simpatico retirement system.

19:18: The UK was available for a period of time.

19:21: Right, so if you're looking to move to New Zealand, you could potentially move your superannuation or your, your, your self-custody Bitcoin with you and live in New Zealand.

19:32: Well, technically you can't take the self custody Bitcoin.

19:35: You've got to sell it, roll it into an industry fund, and then roll it across to an existing super superannuation type system over here which is called KiwiSaver.

19:43: And then you won't hold self-custody Bitcoin, the best you can do is hold an ETF which invests in Bitcoin, so it's, it's a distant second to what the Australian system offers.

19:54: Yeah, interesting, cause I know a lot of people approach me about, about how can we get out of Australia, cause they, they've got, they're gonna, they're potentially gonna have all this money, let's say, money in Bitcoin, sitting in this SMSF and they're like, well I wanna, I wanna be able to touch it.

20:06: I'm like, well I don't know the loopholes, dude.

20:08: Unless you want Interpol, you know, running around after you all over the world.

20:13: So I think that, so actually this is what I'm doing just for for people that's interest is I'm actually allocating in my SMSF because it makes sense to do so, but I'm also allocating to Bitcoin outside.

20:23: Of my SMSF, and this gets around now, me having to worry about not being able to access these funds till I'm 60 in my SMSF.

20:30: I'm gonna have a stack of Bitcoin worth probably 50, 100+ million dollars just sitting there for when it, when, if and whenever I wanna use it.

20:38: Yeah.

20:39: Now, can I, can I bring it back to something a bit more current, and that is, we've seen Bitcoin drop under the $100,000 mark.

20:47: And in fact, if we go back to the beginning of the year, it's pretty much just been flatlined.

20:51: What's your take on this whole year now, just sort of look, cause we're basically in December, looking back on the, on the price of Bitcoin over that period, and I'd love to just hear your thoughts about where we're at now.

21:01: I think from a price perspective, it's been a disappointing year.

21:04: I think a lot of people thought and expected, you know, the 3rd year, the 3rd green dot was going to be a blow off top, and that really hasn't, transpired in any way, shape or form.

21:14: What I look to, and I think this is a tell, you've got the biggest people in the industry, whether it's the ETFs or Michael Sailor.

21:22: Despite being a flat year, they have added substantial amounts of Bitcoin to their treasuries or to their ETFs.

21:28: So I think that's a missed opportunity if you were just sitting on your hands waiting for this thing to moon and then take some profits at the top.

21:35: I, I don't think that that is going to transpire and I think the, the weakness that we've seen in the last, say, Two months, where we've seen it go from say 110 up to 126, now it's at 95%, so it's off 30% roughly.

21:51: That's just two things.

21:52: Firstly, I think it's overall market weakness, so it's not just Bitcoin and crypto getting hammered right now, everything's getting hammered, so it's broader market sell-off, due to a whole host of exogenous concerns that are beyond the, Beyond the realm of most of us because we've got no, no ability to influence that, but there's also been the government shutdown, and that is a huge amount of liquidity that's just had a, literally a finger in the dike, just stopped all flow of liquidity from that US government and I look at that and think that's probably the biggest issue that we've faced in the last, particularly 3 or 4 weeks, because that's been a 6 week government lockdown.

22:23: Where, you know, the treasury's just been jammed up, can't issue any liquidity whatsoever, people can't get paid, they'll obviously have to make it up and pay everyone on the backlog, but this is where the start of that liquidity comes in and this is where, if I'm being maybe a little bit cynical.

22:39: I think the big problem that we face this year is that we've had a longer business cycle, a longer liquidity cycle, and I think Trump is going to try and put that liquidity cycle in to advantage him in the midterms and do everything he can to win that.

22:52: And so what does that mean?

22:54: It means realistically we're not going to see a liquidity big event till January next year at the very best, I think, and then he'll hit that hard.

23:01: That will go really hard for the next 6 months.

23:04: That will get him in the absolute peak economic bubbly, frothy condition.

23:09: For the midterms and the opportunity for him to do the very best that he can in those midterms, so if he had have released the liquidity spigot this year, we'd probably be in a recession or we'd be in a market downturn, bear market, by midterms next year and I think, as Bitcoin's gotten bigger, the politicization of it has gotten far greater, and the relevance of the halving has become a lot less, so I think we're seeing a shift in market dynamics.

23:34: Well, speaking of the halving, Peter.

23:36: This is the big debate right now, is, you know, is it the end of the 4 year cycle, and that, and that, and there's a lot of talk about people are selling off because it is the end of the 4 year, it's like it was expected to blow off top now, the 126 was the top, and now we're just coming back into a bear cycle, so therefore it makes sense to sell.

23:54: Do you think that's the case, or is there, is it actually more just other macro conditions?

23:59: I think there are a whole host of OG's in this space who have been in here a long period of time, who still subscribe to that.

24:07: But I think those two are not mutually exclusive.

24:09: I think there is a genuine shift in the market sentiment and the market structure.

24:13: The available capital that is sitting on the sidelines waiting to enter the space is of an order of magnitude that we've never seen in Bitcoin.

24:22: So to really think that the 4 year cycles will be intact when that amount of capital comes to market, I don't think is feasible, it's not realistic.

24:30: That is around the corner.

24:32: I can tell you anecdotal conversations that I'm having with institutions, advisors, high net worth advisors, people who run family offices, you name it.

24:42: Started out where we started out, where it was a 2% allocation to Bitcoin, 2% represented a bad stock market.

24:48: You could easily justify if there was a catastrophic failure in Bitcoin and it went to zero when you only had a 2% exposure.

24:56: That's where the institutions have started with the ETFs over the last 12 months, however, my conversations that I'm seeing is, no, people want to have somewhere between a 5 to 20% allocation of Bitcoin now, which is a big leap from where we were at 2%.

25:09: And I think there's, you know, there's, there's trillions and trillions of dollars sitting on the sidelines waiting for a good home.

25:15: We've had JP Morgan in the last 3 weeks talk about and trademark the debasement trade, which is something you've been harping on about for the last few years.

25:23: Now all of a sudden that's reached mainstream and there's, there is a mountain of cash sitting on the sidelines that needs to protect itself from this debasement that's going on and, I look at this and think that Bitcoin is the obvious trade, and no one's really going to hurt themselves when 10% of that sideline cash comes to market, but that has the ability to move the market 20 300, 400% to the upside.

25:45: Wow.

25:47: So so basically, despite what is happening now.

25:52: There's a lot of positive news looking into the future, of course, if things are going to 100x regardless of what's happening now, the way I see it now, Peter, is it's just more noise in the long-term view of Bitcoin, that that's how I see it.

26:02: In fact, I look back over the past 12 months, and I thought things were going to be a lot higher where they are, like sort of 150 odd now.

26:10: But the, the benefit to me is that I've actually been able to accumulate more Bitcoin at a lower price.

26:16: In fact, when it dropped under 100, I was like, damn it, I've gotta buy more.

26:19: I had to put more money into the system and and take more Bitcoin, which is kind of good in a way.

26:23: so that's how I see it, it's been a whole flat year of just more accumulation.

26:26: Is that something that you're doing as well, or or your your members?

26:30: Yes, that's exactly what's happening, and this is when sort of the evolution of the Bitcoin and you get scared when you see the 30% drop and obviously we manage client expectations.

26:39: I just got a text message from a client this morning asking what was going on, explaining, here's my view on it, what do you think?

26:45: And, he said, oh, we'll need to catch up later in the week because we need to basically buy more Bitcoin.

26:50: And this is the beauty of having that long-term view with Bitcoin is, There's always an opportunity in Bitcoin, whether it's high or low.

26:57: When it's low, the opportunity to buy dollar cost average down.

27:00: I dare say you're probably looking around.

27:02: You're looking at the seat, you're looking at the cars, you're looking at the, the buildings you own and think, do I really need this when Bitcoin's at this price, and the, the chances are, probably not, it's better invested in Bitcoin than anywhere else, and this is sadly the rationalization that we all come to when Bitcoin's on sale, we start looking at assets that we don't like or don't need or are going to have an inferior performance relative to Bitcoin, and that's where, When you do have assets, I, I look at this on say a grading, and I like to start with superannuation cause it's money that you can't touch that isn't going to have a big outcome on your future for, you know, decades down the way.

27:39: But then when you move to the personal side of the balance sheet and you start looking at what are assets there, well, typically there's cash, there's usually a mortgage on a home that you can extend to buy more Bitcoin, or alternatively, there are other investment assets there that you need to assess, is this asset that I'm holding going to be better than Bitcoin long-term and, I think as you get deeper and deeper down that Bitcoin rabbit hole, you start realizing all the assets that you hold that aren't Bitcoin, whether it's personal or superannuation, pale in comparison to the opportunity that's in front of us with Bitcoin.

28:09: Yeah, I, I think I told you previously on one of our conversations, I used to be a mortgage broker, so I'm and of Wizard Home Loans, and so I'm always looking at ways to manipulate mortgages in order to stack more Bitcoin, and I came up with this strategy the other day which I shared with my crypto collective, members, which was a simple one, which was simply changing your PNI repayment to interest only.

28:32: And allocating the difference to to Bitcoin.

28:34: Now for most people it was only 200 3 $400 a month, right, cause most of it's a an interest payment, but over the next 1020 years, it was quite significant.

28:45: It was like became millions and millions of dollars' worth of Bitcoin into the future, and it would be something that you wouldn't even notice cause you're already making a PNI payment now.

28:54: Now people are gonna say to me, But Matt, we haven't paid off the house yet, and I said, no, no, your, your house has gone from a million dollars to $2 million in 10 years.

29:02: You the Bitcoin you're now stacking, I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was like $5 million.

29:06: It was completely blowing the, the, the home ownership even idea out of the water.

29:10: So it made the the idea of having the mortgage even just irrelevant, basically.

29:14: So all these types of things I I'm always, always thinking about.

29:18: That's a fabulous idea, wonderful, wonderful idea.

29:21: There's no impact on household cash flows.

29:23: And they get to stack Bitcoin that's growing at say 30 or 40% per annum versus the debt that's cost them 6 or 7.

29:29: What a wonderful idea.

29:30: That is kind of what Sailor's doing with his latest product in SDRC.

29:35: But people get to do it on a personal balance sheet, like, like you're telling them.

29:39: What, what a, what a great idea.

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30:37: Now, back to the episode.

30:39: Yeah, I'm always thinking of ways, Peter.

30:42: In fact, I've just, just through pure interest, I've just sold another house at auction, just last week, so that's gonna settle in about, 19th of December.

30:52: So I'm, so I've gotten rid of all the big things first, but, you know, when you say, you know, just, oh just get rid of the, the houses, that, that takes time.

30:59: You've gotta actually line them up, you know, it doesn't have a tenant in there, then you've gotta go through the process of selling it and then settling.

31:05: The, the easiest things for people, as I say, is just get rid of the things that are lying around the house.

31:08: Like I sold a year maybe a year ago now, I had an exercise bike, right?

31:14: I wasn't using an exercise bike anymore.

31:17: But Peter, it was a $2500 bike I sold on like Gumtree.

31:21: Someone came and gave me cash and I went, you know what, I'm putting this into Bitcoin, right, it's just these simple ideas I can, I can just dematerialize all this stuff, which is good.

31:31: I want to steer this back into Australian regulation because,, cause I know you, you're so, you, you're so ingrained into the Australian, professionals of, money investing and taxation and what have you and banking.

31:46: What, what's your, what's your take on the banks, right now, because we've seen now the US banks, JP Morgan and others now say they're going to use, JP Morgan's case, Bitcoin and Ethereum as collateral.

31:59: Where do you think, and if it ever will head into the Australian banking landscape?

32:04: I, I think we're going to see, Bitcoin adopted and used with our banking system.

32:11: I think earlier in the year there was a huge sea change in the US.

32:15: The repeal of SAB 121 basically meant that banks didn't have to hold one for one cash reserves for the amount of Bitcoin that they were holding.

32:24: All of a sudden that made custoding Bitcoin economical.

32:28: In order to deliver savings and loans products, which is where 90% of our bank profits come from, You need to be able to custody an asset.

32:36: So the repeal of SAB 121, although it's a US centric thing, will filter down into global standards, the global banks, and so pretty soon Australian banks will basically remove that requirement as well, and they'll, they'll use what the US is using.

32:50: The reason why I want to sort of give that background with the US is that I know for a fact there are a whole host of banks already looking to do this internally here, and they're, they're looking for ways to do it.

32:59: Now, is it available now?

33:01: No, it's not, but it will be available in the next 5 years.

33:04: And this is where I look at Bitcoin as being the next great asset to reach, to be financialised, and we haven't got any buy-in from the banks at the moment, and I look at this and think, If you look at the, the, the history of credit and credit growth in Australia over the last, Say 40 years, it tracks very heavily with the property prices.

33:26: It's basically up and to the right, with a few dips along the way.

33:29: Credit growth is the most critical thing that you can have for an asset, particularly the residential property market or commercial property market, and Bitcoin is about to become an institutional asset on a banking level.

33:39: So I look at that and think the opportunity is, Easily 100x over the next 10 years, once this gets ingratiated into our banking system.

33:47: Now, I'll still be advocating for self-custody Bitcoin because you want to preserve that self-sovereign, be a sovereign individual, you want to have all of the benefits associated to that, but, you may want to take advantage of really cheap rates or the ability to loan you Bitcoin or use it as a savings account on a small portion of your stack.

34:03: So, I'm, I'm wildly optimistic on the banks adopting this in, in the next few years and, This will also relieve a lot of pressure that I think we're still under in Australia anyway from Operation Chokepoint 2.0 in the US.

34:16: In Australia we still have trouble transferring cash to an exchange and buying Bitcoin without the banks sitting in the middle of it and having a fraud department tell us why we shouldn't be doing it.

34:26: Yeah, I'm, I'm in two minds on, on the banks taking over, well, I, allowing Bitcoin.

34:33: One is that this is my conspiracy theory hat, Peter, coming on, is that the banks right now are opposing, let's say Bitcoin, and so like you said before, they're making it very difficult to transfer funds from your, your bank to an exchange.

34:47: Now, personally speaking, I use one of the top major banks in Australia, and they've actually been really good.

34:52: I can transfer tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands at a time.

34:56: , but I think my account has been seasoned over the past so many years, so it kind of is, they allow it, and of course I have a lot of money coming through there anyway, so it doesn't really raise any red flags, but, so I, I don't wanna bury them all under the bund.

35:08: Like some of them are OK, but what I think's gonna happen is, The banks are making it difficult.

35:14: They eventually will come out and say, we can now save you.

35:18: You can now buy your Bitcoin from XYZ bank.

35:23: And so that is good in a way because the adoption will just drive in, because if, if people think, oh, the Commonwealth Bank is now selling Bitcoin for me, it must be OK, it's not a scam.

35:33: I remember last, you know, last decade it was a scam, but now Commonwealth Bank's selling it, it must be good.

35:37: So then they will now go to the Commonwealth Bank to buy their Bitcoin, then the bank will say, And we'll save you the hassle of having to self custody.

35:45: That's too, that's too hard.

35:47: We will hold it for you, right?

35:49: Now, we know what happens now, Peter.

35:51: You walk into the bank just to get cash.

35:52: It's like a big deal, right?

35:54: All the armed guards come out and the red, red lights start siring away, right?

35:58: But I I think then if we try to get our Bitcoin out of the bank, we're gonna have the same issues.

36:02: Where's it going, who's it for, right?

36:04: So, so this is the take on it.

36:06: It's good for adoption, but I don't think it's good in the sense of really what I think Bitcoin stands for from a self-custody and sovereignty point of view.

36:15: I agree, and I don't think those two are mutually exclusive, but I think the more people understand what this is, the, the greater exposure that people have to Bitcoin is a net benefit, and then I guess it's up to seasoned Bitcoiners like yourself and everyone listening to ensure that that ethos of self-custody and making sure that you have full control of your Bitcoin, is, is really paramount to being, a Bitcoiner and having the full access to it, and this is where, You know, we're we're planning for clients over the next 5 to 10 years, and my expectation is, is that you will have, well, I might just sort of take a step back, Bitcoin I believe is the first globally ubiquitous digital asset.

36:58: And what does that mean?

36:59: It basically means the world over this thing is accepted.

37:02: And the beauty of that is, is that with the banks now adopting it and the US leading the charge on that, every bank across the globe will accept this as collateral.

37:12: And although I don't want to see bitcoins with the banks, I understand that lending will serve a big purpose moving forward.

37:18: And what I'm trying to plan for is, if you hold that Bitcoin in self-custody, you're going to be able to access the cheapest interest rates globally on borrowing on your Bitcoin.

37:29: But if you have your Bitcoin purchased at the CBA and then sitting in the walled garden within CBA you'll be offered a rate of 7 or 8%.

37:36: But if you're self-casting that Bitcoin, you'll be able to take that Bitcoin to a Japanese bank, Who's giving away money at 0.5%, or you'll be able to take it to a Swiss bank, where they're giving money away for 2 or 3%, and this is where it's so critical for long-term optionality to make sure that you're self-custody, and once people understand the benefits of what's coming down the road with that, everyone's self-custody is for that reason.

37:59: Yeah, I, I think you're so right.

38:00: However, Peter, I think there's a very small window of opportunity right now.

38:07: This is, this is my take on it because, I, I do think that in the future, in the near future, that governments, but maybe in Australia, will not allow self-custody of Bitcoin, in particular, under an SMSF structure.

38:22: I think they're gonna catch on to the fact that, you know, you can hold it within an SMSF under self custody and, and the flight risk is too great.

38:29: I think that's what they'll, they'll see, and you'll have to hold it in a, in a third party, you know, fund somehow where you don't have custody of that Bitcoin.

38:38: I want to ask you about the the EU rules that have just been floated.

38:43: this is the the draconian EU crypto regulations, and they're talking about now, not allowing things like Monaro and ZCash, these private coins, as well as a whole host of other.

38:55: Things to do with KYC.

38:57: Are, are you across those Peter do you have any, OK, I'd love to hear your take on it, and, and in particular, do you think that those draconian type measures will flow into Australia?

39:08: Sadly, I, I think they will flow into Australia and I'll just sort of take a step back and give a, give a framework for how I view this.

39:15: But I, I think the EU is setting up and trying to be the world's regulator.

39:20: They're trying to be the world's, you know, policemen.

39:23: And create all these regulations for all sorts of industries.

39:26: If we look at, say, the green agenda, that's typically driven out of Brussels, we've seen the self-immolation of the German economy, they are literally, they can't produce anything now because they've got so much green energy, they don't know what to do with it.

39:37: Here's a crazy stat from that green energy and I'm, hey, if it's your boat then great, but I don't want it because it's really expensive.

39:44: But the, the German economy spent 500 trillion, creating capacity of 130% of the total consumption.

39:52: With solar power, and in the last statistic I saw, only 6% of the total consumed energy in Germany, was from solar.

40:01: So they had overbuilt, to the tune of 20% and they'd only consumed 6%.

40:07: So I look at this and think, these are the, these are the agendas driven by the EU and the people who pontificate in this small garden that is the EU and I don't want their policies coming to Australia, but I look at this and I think we're actually, you know, we're knee deep in that regulation with the, with, with the EU.

40:23: I would much prefer to be influenced by the US's regulation.

40:27: But there's a turf war going on now between the EU and the US as to who's going to be basically the global regulator of crypto.

40:34: Donald Trump and his administration, I know he's a polarizing figure, has basically come out and said, we fully support Bitcoin.

40:40: We want you to come here, we want you to, you know, develop, we want you to invest, we want you to be, you know, we're we're fully supportive of what you want to do in the crypto space.

40:48: You contrast this with what's happening in the EU and they're wanting to, Ban self-custody, they want to limit transactions to 3000, they want to have all these rules and regulations when it comes to transferring of Bitcoin, they don't want you to self custody it, and you compare that, To the US and I think the US is saying, hey, come here, self custody, you know, try things, get on with it, and, sadly I think Australia is taking their lead from the EU, not the US even though we should be taking our lead from the US because they're the global leader in this space, it it was probably highlighted to me and you probably saw this, that there was a whole host of legislation last year that came out with, with the City of London, the UK England wanted to be the crypto capital of the world.

41:29: They put all this regulation in place which basically deterred anyone from going there and sent them elsewhere.

41:35: I'm like yay government.

41:38: So basically the less our government does, the better.

41:41: Yeah, it doesn't surprise me because it just seems that these people in, in, in positions of power are just so dumb when it comes to business type decisions.

41:50: It's like we were talking before just about, you know, the Australian government trying to direct super funds to invest into affordable housing, right?

41:56: The whole point of affordable housing is it's affordable, you're basically trying to build it for no profit, right, but you want super funds to, to invest in it to make no profit for the members for their retirement.

42:06: I mean the whole thing is completely backwards.

42:08: In actual fact, we really know what the agenda is here.

42:11: There's a few people at the very, very top, and they're making a bucket load of money off the, off the Green New Deal.

42:17: And everyone else can get stuffed, basically, and all the money's directed to the top.

42:20: Did you say it was $500 trillion that was spent on the solar?

42:24: $500 billion half a trillion dollars, not $500 trillion 500 billion dollars, so it's half a trillion dollars.

42:30: But, but that type of investment in a coal, gas, or nuclear facility would have run Germany for the next 100 years.

42:36: But what they got was 6% of consumed energy through a whole host of solar panels, and Germany isn't like Australia, which is a really sunny country with heat and the rest of it, It, it's just complete, complete madness, and I wish it would stop.

42:51: That's crazy.

42:51: I just saw a report that came out today, and it was Sweden, this is back on the Sweden of using super, Sweden had used, they've actually done this, they used pension funds to fund some like a solar panel or a wind farm, and it, it's gone belly up.

43:06: So all the people that invested in it, which is the pension funds, they don't have their pension now.

43:10: Right, it's just, it's just, it's just absolutely ridiculous.

43:13: Peter, as we sort of near towards the end of the episode.

43:16: I just wanna just touch on, on just something personal because, you know, I, I've been following you for so long now, and I just, from, from my own pure selfishness, I would just love to know what are some of the strategies that you personally do or have done to accumulate Bitcoin?

43:30: Cause I've got my own strategies, but I wanna hear from the masters.

43:34: Good question, and I don't know if I'd call myself that, and I'm very humbled that you feel that way, thank you.

43:38: I think it comes down to a number of different things.

43:41: Firstly, you need to get comfortable with the asset, you need to know it, so you need to study it.

43:46: To me, the fastest way of doing that with the least risk possible is exposing your superannuation to it, because it doesn't have a consequence today for you financially.

43:54: It will in 20 years' time, but that gives it a lot of time to catch-up, Once you've done that, then I think you start looking around at your assets and you think, what do I need and, you know, what is a must-have and what's a nice to have, and you get rid of all of the nice to haves, whether that's an investment property, cars, you name it, you start looking around and start converting that, for the things that you do have to keep then, There's the evolution of starting to finance those assets as, as hard as you can, so you might take out loans on your home or an investment property or a commercial property that you've got, and you want to always be maximizing those loans, and then taking that equity to apply to Bitcoin, and then once you realize that those assets that you've financed aren't as good as Bitcoin, then you sell them.

44:40: Typically get rid of them and it might take a few years to get to that point, but I feel like everyone does, but I think that's the most important thing and I'd, I'd, I'd just say your superannuation is a key asset for moving forward with this because there's no consequence for today, in putting your money to that if you're not already retired, so that's, that's the number one thing, but secondly, I would say, Start with dollar cost averaging, whether it's $10.50 dollars, $1000 a week, whatever you can afford, just to get some exposure to Bitcoin because the more you know, the more you buy, you're not gonna get interest.

45:12: Who have exposure to it, the, the very idea that people just learn about Bitcoin and then once they've done all their study, they go and buy it, quite frankly I believe is bullshit.

45:22: That's not how people work.

45:23: They go and buy something and then they figure out, oh, I better, better understand this, so now they're incentivized to understand it.

45:30: So I would say, put your money where your mouth is, whether it's $1.10 dollars, $1000 a week, just start accumulating that and, and learn as much as you can.

45:38: Mhm.

45:39: And I'd love to get your take on this too, because this comes to me all the time.

45:42: Someone's now just sold their property, they've got $300,000 let's say, now sitting in the bank account.

45:47: Do they dump the $300,000 into Bitcoin today, or do they DCA dollar cost average that 300 at $10,000 a week or $10,000 a month for the foreseeable future until it runs out?

45:59: What, what is you, what do you think is the best strategy?

46:01: This one is easy for me, and I'll just preface this by saying that someone who's got $300,000 in the bank, who's asking you that question.

46:08: Typically has got a whole host of other assets that they could put into Bitcoin.

46:13: And so I am always of the opinion that buying now is going to lead to a lot less regret.

46:21: Because if you're asking that question of, should I buy now or should I dollar cost average into it.

46:26: I'm not sure that we're going to have an omega candle tomorrow, in 1 year's time, 10 years' time, whenever that might be, I don't know.

46:33: But I do know there is going to come a point when someone with a money printer is gonna press the buy button and we're gonna see Bitcoin move 10x in the space of a month.

46:41: Now, if you apply that traditional financial logic of just dollar cost average into this over a period of time, and you've done all the work, you understand this is a superior asset, it's the Apex asset, moving forward, it's gonna deliver superior returns over time.

46:54: And you want to get cute with dollar cost averaging and you miss a 10x move in it.

46:58: You're gonna be livid with yourself.

47:01: Totally agree.

47:02: I, I am much more of the opinion that people really get upset at the opportunities that they knew existed but didn't take than the opportunities they took and then went the other way.

47:12: And so I look at this and think on a risk adjusted basis, if you invest that $300,000 tomorrow cause hey, this is a decision we made, we'd do it.

47:20: If the market drops 50%, I know 9 out of 10 clients I talked to have got another $300,000 sitting there waiting to go anyway.

47:27: And I tell them, hey, we're going to put the full amount in.

47:29: And if it goes, drops 50% tomorrow, I'm gonna call you and we're going to put the other $300,000 in or we're going to find $300,000 to dollar cost average at half the price that you bought it for.

47:39: And there'll be resistance, people sit there and get upset about the thought of it, but it's like, no, if it was a good idea when Bitcoin was $126 it's a great idea at $95.

47:49: Right.

47:50: So this is where most people will never commit their entire balance to Bitcoin in their first transaction anyway.

47:57: So I'd say everyone just go all in and then we look at how do we find other assets, other capital to put in on the back of it if it goes the other way.

48:06: Yeah, Peter, you've also mentioned the term which I, I meant to bring up earlier, which is a term terminal bitcoin.

48:12: Now what do you mean by terminal bit, cos I I love that that that phrase that terminal Bitcoin.

48:18: Well, it's, it, it probably has negative connotations, but I actually think it's very positive in the sense of Bitcoin.

48:24: So I call it being a terminal Bitcoiner, meaning that regardless of what happens, other than winning the lottery or gaining a significant inheritance, your Bitcoin stack isn't going to move in a meaningful measure.

48:36: So, I dare say you're fast approaching that if you're not there already, that, you know, you've got a stack of Bitcoin, it might be whatever the number is, and there's no real budging that number to the tune of 100 or 2 or 300% upwards from where it is now, because you've kind of got the asset exposure that you want.

48:56: It's very difficult to increase your Bitcoin exposure and really increase the percentage amount of Bitcoin that you hold.

49:02: You're really just trying to preserve it, and this is where, I, I call myself a terminal bitcoiner where I, I don't have any other assets to sell.

49:09: I've sold the family home, I've sold investment properties, I've sold everything that I could to buy more bitcoin.

49:15: I've sold my exercise bike, Peter, have you sold that one?

49:19: Yeah, yeah, that's gone.

49:24: So everything, everything's dematerialized.

49:26: Sorry, keep going.

49:27: I think that's, that's the beauty of it, that you get to a point where you just, you're not gonna get any more, any more Bitcoin than what you've currently got at this point in time, and that's what I call a, a terminal Bitcoiner.

49:37: You basically, you're just about the preservation and maybe the marginal increase of your Bitcoin stack.

49:43: Yeah, I love it.

49:44: I love that.

49:45: I've been, I've been actually, I've been attributing it to you, but I've been using it myself when I've been talking to people.

49:50: Terminal Bitcoin.

49:51: So Peter, very last thing for people who want to find out more about you, maybe you can just go into a bit more detail about who are the sort of clients that, that would come to, the Bitcoin advisor.

50:01: Thank you for that.

50:01: We, we typically look after clients who are looking to get into Bitcoin by way of selling.

50:07: Significant assets, we look after a whole range of clients ranging from mums and dads to high net worth families, and what we do is we provide peace of mind and a surety for people getting into Bitcoin that they're not going to muck it up.

50:18: So it's a safe pair of hands to help them buy Bitcoin and then move that to a self-custody system that they literally cannot muck up, and that's, that's the most important thing.

50:28: We've been doing this for 10 years.

50:30: We've helped clients self-custody for that period of time.

50:33: We haven't seen a single Satoshi lost and, It's really just a safe pair of hands for anyone who's thinking about getting into this or has large amounts of capital that they want invested in this but they don't know where to go, it's just a safe pair of hands to help them with that process and transition.

50:49: Awesome.

50:50: Peter Dunworth from the Bitcoin advisor, one of the most intelligent people that I know in the Bitcoin space, thank you so much for joining me on this episode.

50:58: Thanks for having me, it's so great to spend time with you.

51:00: Thanks for tuning in to Crypto Collective.

51:02: If you've enjoyed this episode, the best way to show your support is to leave a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and make sure to subscribe to the YouTube channel so you don't miss an episode.

51:13: You can also find more of me at I'm Matthew Fraser on all social media platforms.