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G'day everyone, it's Michelle J Raymond
back again this week, listeners, with

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another fantastic guest, who all day
every day is living and breathing

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employee advocacy with B2B organisations.

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Colin Day from Octopost,
welcome to the show.

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Thanks for having me, Michelle.

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Quick question.

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For those people who actually don't know
about Octopost or maybe haven't crossed

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paths with you, of course we're gonna
put the details in the show notes, but

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can you give us, like, the one-minute
summary, what is it that you guys do?

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Yeah, so look, we're a B2B
social media management platform.

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So we help B2B organisations
or CMOs answer two very

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simple questions, Michelle.

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How do you put more quality leads
into the top of the sales funnel?

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And how do you prove the value of
marketing to the wider business?

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The way we do that and the way we
support that, yeah, is through organic

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social media strategies giving the
brand the ability to create, schedule,

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publish content across their corporate
social pages, taking some of that

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content or indeed different content
and sharing it with employees so

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they can amplify the reach across
their own personal, um, social pages.

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And, um, social listening tools to be
able to, uh, snoop on your competition

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and understand who's talking about what in
the market and use that to influence, um,

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your organic and paid social strategies.

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That's what we do in a nutshell.

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Amazing.

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So you're the software that enables
what I call the power of two.

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How do you get your pages, i.e. your
brand, and your employees working together

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to generate, like you said, leads.

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That's why we're doing this, listeners.

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This is what we're talking about today.

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I'd say it's the power of two
million and two, Michelle, not

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the power of two, because the key
part is that second part, right?

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The employee amplification.

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And if you can get that right,
it's, it's the force multiplier.

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I think you just, we should
underline that if you get that right.

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and today listeners, we're gonna
be talking about employee advocacy

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and the fact that it is more
than just content distribution.

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So the whole point of getting your team
active is not just so that more people

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can see your actual pieces of content.

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But before we get into that employee
advocacy piece, can you share what you're

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seeing across B2B organisations when
it comes to becoming more social first?

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I mean, you wrote the book on this,
so what did your research find?

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Here's the free plug.

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Go for it.

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There you go.

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That was the free plug, sorry about that.

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Shameless, shameless.

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Look I think that the, the biggest
shift we're seeing right now, Michelle,

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right, is that, um, you know, leading
B2B organisations are finally starting

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to realise that social media's more than
just a communication channel, right?

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It's becoming part of the go-to-market
infrastructure for the business, right?

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For years, social sat inside
marketing and has largely been

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measured by activity metrics, right?

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How many likes, how many comments, how
many shares did I get versus, um, you

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know, the actual uh, who's engaging
in that conversation and, and that

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activity, and being able to use that
to drive other business, um, behaviours

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and, and other business, uh, activities.

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So today's buyer, what we're seeing is
they're researching independently, right?

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It's like they're validating vendors
socially and they're consuming

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expert opinions, and they're forming
their perception long before a

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deal ever shows up, yeah, on, um,
a seller's inbox or table or, uh,

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you know, telephone call, right?

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So like they're, they're understanding
who's showing up and who's

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showing up and saying what, right?

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It's no longer about the
product that I'm trying to sell.

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It's the opinion, yeah, that, um,
that I have and, and the conversation

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that I'm able to bring to the market.

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And add to that, um, you know, we've
got a generational shift, right?

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We've got Gen Z, we've got young
millennials that, um, you know, are

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entering the, the workplace and, and
actually, um, have buy-in power, right?

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And the way that, um, you know they
validate people and validate people's

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credentials are different to, to
maybe a 55-year-old man that's sitting

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in front of you right now, right?

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Like, um, people trust people,
yet people don't trust brands.

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People have conversations with people.

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It's called social media
for a reason, right?

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People don't get social
with a brand, yeah?

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No one goes to, I don't know, to, um,
their bank and, and says, "Hey, bank,

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let's have a conversation," right?

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They go to someone in the bank to
have a conversation, and they, they

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validate, um, you know, the, the
credentials of that organisation based

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upon what they see, um, in the channels
where they consume their information.

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I think from what I've been watching,
and I agree with you that things are

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definitely shifting, and it doesn't
matter whether we're talking about

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LinkedIn or other platforms, but I think
it's the mindset most of all within the

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organisation that it's no longer just post
that stuff over there on that platform

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and let's broadcast at the audience.

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There's a lot more, "Okay, can
we actually be of service to that

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audience?" And every episode of this
podcast I keep coming back to that for

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all the listeners, that the days of
talking at your audience are long gone.

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And I, I think the brands that are
still trying to do it that way are

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the ones that are coming unstuck.

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They're probably the ones that are
crying out about the algorithm sucks

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or there's a problem with this or that.

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I like what you've said as well, and I
haven't quite come up with better ways to

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measure and, you know, this is probably
a whole other episode in itself, but I

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think because we were always measuring
activity, like you said, we were always

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about the likes, the impressions, the
engagement rate, that actually kind of

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drove the wrong behaviour, and we didn't
have any new metrics to come up with so

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it was like why would we change because
we can't measure these new things?"

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And so I found that's some of the
pushback, and it could be something

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as simple as last year, uh, you know,
I was having conversations, uh, you

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know, doing presentations at Social
Media Marketing World talking about

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getting your page out there and actively
commenting or your people actively

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commenting, and at the time we couldn't
measure what that was generating from

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LinkedIn, and now we can see those types
of things, which is exciting to see.

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But I'm still not sure that people
have figured out, well, what are we

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doing and what are we measuring now?

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Is, is that a fair assumption, like,
on my behalf with what you see?

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Yeah.

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And, and look, Octopost is, is
different, um, in that regard, Michelle.

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I, I was a customer before
I joined the business.

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So I, uh, I first came across
Octopost in 2014, 2015.

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Um, I just-- So I was the chief technology
officer for global marketing for a very

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large financial technology company.

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We'd just done a rollout of Marketo.

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Others do exist, other marketing
automation platforms do exist.

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But, um, you know, we'd just,
um… Now I sound like the BBC.

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We'd just, um, rolled out Marketo,
and, um, the chief revenue officer,

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um, a gentleman called Jim Levy, came
to me and said, "Colin, I need your

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help from a marketing perspective.

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I wanna get my sales teams more socially
active on this thing called LinkedIn."

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Yeah. Can you help me, um, you know, do
a, a review of the marketplace to find

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a platform that can help us," right?

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"Scale that.

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I can put content up onto, say, a board
so I can, get the, um, that central

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location, get the sellers to come
in, find content that's relevant to

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their networks, get them to be able
to, you know, put their opinions on

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it, and then share it out over, say,
LinkedIn, X, um, Facebook, et cetera."

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So we did a, uh, a search of
the market, and we came up.

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Uh, we found Octopost.

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And the reason that, um, I settled
on Octopost as a solution, 'cause

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there are many out there, right?

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It's like, um, the reason I settled
on Octopost back at, uh, um, at that

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time was one simple thing, right?

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I wanted to be able to understand who
was engaging with my social content,

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um, and the content that the sellers
were put-putting out there, not

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just what was being engaged with.

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And I wanted to be able to link,
yeah, that social engagement to my

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marketing automation platform so that
I could use it to, um, you know, for

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attribution modeling, so I could use
it to drive my nurture activity, so I

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could use it for lead scoring, right?

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It's like, um, and, and Octopost
was and is the only platform

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that, um, can still do that.

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So it was able to do it then.

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It's, it's able to still do it today.

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Um, that's the key
difference, Michelle, right?

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Because Octopost, we say
we're, we're B2B to the core.

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We were built specifically
for B2B organisations.

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If you look at a lot of the other
solutions that, that people are

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used to using, yeah, they came
from a B2C environment, and B2C

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to B2B is very different, right?

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In B2C, it's great to be able to measure
the number of impressions, right?

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And, and the amount of engagement.

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I don't necessarily need to know the
who, because if you're gonna buy a

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pair of trainers, you're gonna buy a
pair of trainers if you're gonna buy

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a, a million dollar, um, you know,
software solution to run your, uh, um,

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your finance, yeah, environment, yeah?

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Maybe, yeah, there's a, uh, a longer
tail to, uh, to, to that sales journey.

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Maybe there's more people involved, right?

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Um, if you look at Gartner or Forrester
Research, they'll tell you that there's

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upwards of 12 to 18 people involved
in any B2B buying cycle, right?

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So I've got to bring all of those
people on that journey, yeah, and one

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of the key places to be able to do
that and to influence them earlier

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on, as we said in that, uh, um, that
first question, is, is on social.

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Yeah, absolutely . And we know
specifically LinkedIn is the

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place where B2B buyers are.

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They trust the platform, and
I believe honestly that it's

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becoming more and more important.

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And so what happens is people hear
all of the stats, like you've said,

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about, you know, and I've just kind
of said that LinkedIn's the place

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to be, and then what happens is the
immediate reaction is, "Let's try and

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get as much content created on the
platform as possible and just flood it."

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And I think a lot of B2B companies
actually treat employee advocacy as

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just a way to scale that content.

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You see it all the time.

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Posts by employees get shared, you know,
8 times, 15 times, 20 times, I don't know,

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whatever number we're up to these days.

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But what do you think that they miss when
they treat advocacy only as distribution?

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What do I think they miss?

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Wow.

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I think they miss the entire point, right?

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It's like, um, you know, if employee
advocacy is simply about getting

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employees to post more content, then,
um, you know, you've really, what you've

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built is a, a distribution engine that
no one particularly trusts, right?

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No one particularly trusts it, um,
because you're not building real

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credibility and, and real value, right?

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The real value comes from the
opinions of the employees.

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As I said earlier on um, you know,
people trust people far more than

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they trust brands, particularly
when it comes to B2B decision-making

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where risk is involved, right?

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You wanna mitigate as much
risk, um, as, as possible.

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So buyers want insight from
practitioners and subject matter experts.

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And who are the best subject matter
experts in, um, you know, about

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your product or your service?

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It's your people, right?

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They don't want polished
slogans from the brand.

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That was so 10 years ago, right?

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It's like, um, you know, you see
the algorithm, and you follow the

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algorithm more than most people,
Michelle, so hat off to you.

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It's like, um, for all of
the great work you do there.

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I don't think there's any one person
in the world, even at LinkedIn, that

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can tell you really what the algorithm
does, especially now that, um, you know,

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it's on steroids and, uh, is being run
by AI itself or, or augmented by AI.

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But, um, you see it with
the algorithm, right?

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It's like, um, you know, more focus being
put on authentic, genuine content, right?

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The algorithm is now looking at, um,
you know, Michelle's profile, Colin's

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profile and saying, "You know, what
authority do you have, yeah, to talk

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about the subject, yeah, that you've
got with- inside your post," right?

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"And let me try and understand,"
the algorithm, not Colin, "Let me

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try and understand whether this is
AI-generated, yeah, or whether this

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is Colin or Michelle-generated, i.e.

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human-generated.

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Um, and let me understand whether,
um, this is, is authentic and, and,

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and genuine content, i.e., can I
see it, um, you know, it's spread

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26 times, um, across the platform.

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… more focus being, being
placed on, on authenticity.

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And for me, the best advocacy programs,
um, they encourage the advocate to,

218
00:13:39,426 --> 00:13:43,786
to maybe take what the marketing team
or the central team have created as

219
00:13:43,866 --> 00:13:48,926
a draft, yeah, and turn it into their
own voice and put their own experience

220
00:13:48,966 --> 00:13:50,595
and put their own credentials on it

221
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I am secretly wishing that over the next
couple of years because of the shifts that

222
00:13:57,757 --> 00:14:02,737
you've just spoken about on LinkedIn, that
it becomes, and this is a dated reference

223
00:14:02,878 --> 00:14:06,878
and shout out to anyone that's Gen X
and older, maybe you remember, there's a

224
00:14:06,937 --> 00:14:11,617
movie called Revenge of the Nerds, and I
think it was, like, late '80s, early '90s.

225
00:14:12,037 --> 00:14:15,857
And I am hoping that LinkedIn becomes
Revenge of the Nerds, where all of

226
00:14:15,897 --> 00:14:21,557
the technical people out there on the
platform start to get their voice heard

227
00:14:21,798 --> 00:14:28,277
even more because I think that for
too long it's been a lot of, I don't

228
00:14:28,318 --> 00:14:32,077
know, what's popular, what will get
more engagement, what will get those

229
00:14:32,138 --> 00:14:35,777
impressions, and it was not necessarily
who was the smartest or who had the

230
00:14:35,837 --> 00:14:40,437
most knowledge or who had the most
subject matter expertise or experience.

231
00:14:40,478 --> 00:14:45,177
And often I find that those people
who you know within any industry who

232
00:14:45,237 --> 00:14:49,037
are so highly regarded have probably
been in the business for a long

233
00:14:49,097 --> 00:14:53,557
time, very well connected, are often
invisible when it comes to LinkedIn.

234
00:14:53,577 --> 00:14:57,337
And so for me personally, I'm hoping
that we start to see more of those

235
00:14:57,417 --> 00:15:02,437
people shine on the platform as this
becomes more and more important and

236
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we move outside of just the Company
Page, just that branded content, and

237
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into this employee advocacy and support
those people who historically would've

238
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been definitely in the background.

239
00:15:15,057 --> 00:15:20,157
And so this is the thing that I'm looking
at because so much of that B2B buying

240
00:15:20,217 --> 00:15:25,477
process we know happens before we even
find out about it, and you spoke about

241
00:15:25,517 --> 00:15:28,777
that just before, and it's something
that I've shared on the podcast before.

242
00:15:29,277 --> 00:15:34,157
But how exactly does employee
advocacy help build that trust and

243
00:15:34,237 --> 00:15:36,237
influence during that hidden part?

244
00:15:36,257 --> 00:15:38,217
Like, what's actually going on?

245
00:15:38,744 --> 00:15:43,894
Yeah, look, um, this is probably one
of the most important shifts happening

246
00:15:44,014 --> 00:15:45,914
in modern B2B, Michelle, right?

247
00:15:45,994 --> 00:15:51,734
It's like a huge portion of the buying
journey now happens autonomously.

248
00:15:52,134 --> 00:15:52,334
Yeah.

249
00:15:52,434 --> 00:15:57,454
Um, buyers are researching quietly, um,
you know, they're reading posts, they're

250
00:15:57,534 --> 00:16:01,474
watching videos, they're following
conversations, they're comparing

251
00:16:01,914 --> 00:16:07,794
opinions and, and validating vendors ever
before anyone raises their hand, right?

252
00:16:07,854 --> 00:16:10,454
And w- we've said that term
a couple of times already.

253
00:16:10,994 --> 00:16:18,436
So the real question, right, the real
question becomes who is influencing,

254
00:16:18,496 --> 00:16:21,356
yeah, that invisible journey, right?

255
00:16:21,376 --> 00:16:25,346
And in many cases, yeah,
it's not the brand, right?

256
00:16:25,346 --> 00:16:26,876
It's the employees.

257
00:16:27,236 --> 00:16:27,436
Yeah.

258
00:16:27,536 --> 00:16:32,476
And, you know, thoughtful LinkedIn
posts from sales engineers, from

259
00:16:32,576 --> 00:16:37,016
a customer success manager sharing
a practical insight, right?

260
00:16:37,136 --> 00:16:41,476
Or a consultant discussing a
specific industry challenge.

261
00:16:41,696 --> 00:16:48,356
They're the interactions that are building
that familiarity over time, right?

262
00:16:48,456 --> 00:16:53,646
And they're the real things that
are helping, the organisation,

263
00:16:54,876 --> 00:16:56,256
yeah, build that trust.

264
00:16:56,496 --> 00:17:03,176
So by the time a prospective customer
enters the sales conversation, they

265
00:17:03,276 --> 00:17:09,956
already have consumed months, yeah, of
social content that have been shared

266
00:17:10,016 --> 00:17:12,356
by employees of the business, right?

267
00:17:12,416 --> 00:17:17,606
So that changes the, the nature of the
sales cycle completely because it's no

268
00:17:17,736 --> 00:17:20,316
longer starting from zero trust, right?

269
00:17:20,396 --> 00:17:24,486
Trust you build in, in drips, right?

270
00:17:24,486 --> 00:17:27,036
But you lose by the bucket load, right?

271
00:17:27,076 --> 00:17:32,886
So you build trust in drips, you knock
that bucket over and, uh, it's very hard

272
00:17:32,956 --> 00:17:34,596
to, uh, to get back to that point, right?

273
00:17:34,696 --> 00:17:38,016
So, we've already said people buy from
people, people buy from people they

274
00:17:38,076 --> 00:17:40,156
trust, people buy from people they like.

275
00:17:40,736 --> 00:17:40,936
Yeah.

276
00:17:41,576 --> 00:17:46,736
That months of, of content engagement
and sharing and consumption has already

277
00:17:46,916 --> 00:17:51,856
helped you build that level of trust,
um, to a point that, um, it becomes a

278
00:17:51,916 --> 00:17:53,856
much easier conversation for the seller.

279
00:17:54,245 --> 00:17:59,996
And I think too many organisations
still underestimate how much of the

280
00:18:00,056 --> 00:18:06,716
pipeline is being influenced by social
long before, um, you know, that, uh,

281
00:18:06,856 --> 00:18:10,676
that initial conversation ever takes
place regarding the, uh, the sale.

282
00:18:10,736 --> 00:18:16,666
So employee advocacy helps to
shorten the distance between

283
00:18:16,736 --> 00:18:20,316
awareness and credibility, and
that's the key point, Michelle

284
00:18:21,428 --> 00:18:22,248
It sure is.

285
00:18:22,368 --> 00:18:25,688
And if I think about my own LinkedIn
journey, which I, I've shared

286
00:18:25,728 --> 00:18:30,148
before, so I started sharing content
on LinkedIn when I started in a

287
00:18:30,268 --> 00:18:32,348
new sales role in a new industry.

288
00:18:32,758 --> 00:18:35,968
And at that point in time, for me,
in my mind, it was just being able

289
00:18:36,028 --> 00:18:39,828
to talk about what we did to as many
people as possible, 'cause I physically

290
00:18:39,868 --> 00:18:43,048
couldn't get around to them all, 'cause
Australia's a big country after all.

291
00:18:43,478 --> 00:18:46,988
And so I would start to do that, and
I didn't have a fancy term for it.

292
00:18:47,068 --> 00:18:48,668
I didn't know what employee advocacy was.

293
00:18:48,768 --> 00:18:50,368
I didn't know what social selling was.

294
00:18:50,508 --> 00:18:52,468
I didn't even know what B2B marketing was.

295
00:18:52,538 --> 00:18:54,488
I was just happy in my little sales world.

296
00:18:54,968 --> 00:19:00,328
And the way that I knew that this was
working is that my job was to stand

297
00:19:00,368 --> 00:19:04,108
at trade booths, you know, go to the
industry event, stand there and with

298
00:19:04,117 --> 00:19:08,408
a bowl of mints sitting on top of the
table and some cheap giveaway, and hope

299
00:19:08,448 --> 00:19:11,128
that someone would come over and ask
us about the products that we sold.

300
00:19:11,168 --> 00:19:14,208
In, in this case, it was the
beauty industry, so it was all the

301
00:19:14,248 --> 00:19:15,628
ingredients that we would offer.

302
00:19:16,068 --> 00:19:21,648
Now, what I actually found was, and I
didn't realise it at the time, is that

303
00:19:21,728 --> 00:19:25,828
I'd be standing there and I'd have a
lineup of people wanting to talk to me,

304
00:19:25,888 --> 00:19:28,928
and I'd be like, "Wow, this is great.
Must be those mints or something."

305
00:19:29,248 --> 00:19:33,648
But no, what they would say to me was,
"Michelle, you did a post on LinkedIn

306
00:19:34,228 --> 00:19:39,648
four months ago, five months ago," often
no time recent, "and I saw that and I

307
00:19:39,668 --> 00:19:42,528
wanted to talk to you about it." And
I'd be like, "You didn't like my post.

308
00:19:42,588 --> 00:19:43,228
You didn't comment.

309
00:19:43,328 --> 00:19:46,688
You didn't do anything at the time,
and here we are six months down the

310
00:19:46,728 --> 00:19:51,118
track," because they didn't need it at
that minute in time, but I kept talking

311
00:19:51,188 --> 00:19:55,088
about it, I stayed top of mind, and they
knew I had a solution to that problem.

312
00:19:55,498 --> 00:19:59,288
And so for me, that's where I fell in love
with LinkedIn, and I still fall in love

313
00:19:59,328 --> 00:20:01,428
with LinkedIn today from that perspective.

314
00:20:01,948 --> 00:20:05,768
And it's funny because I just went
to a, you know, the marketing club

315
00:20:05,888 --> 00:20:09,048
meetup here in Sydney last week,
and sure enough, somebody from New

316
00:20:09,128 --> 00:20:12,388
Zealand that is a friend of mine on
LinkedIn who doesn't engage with my

317
00:20:12,528 --> 00:20:14,528
posts, hadn't seen him for a while.

318
00:20:15,128 --> 00:20:17,588
First thing he says, he rattles
off everything I've done

319
00:20:17,668 --> 00:20:18,628
over the last three months.

320
00:20:18,668 --> 00:20:22,868
"Oh, Michelle, I saw you here. You've done
that." And I wish we could bottle that up

321
00:20:23,128 --> 00:20:28,108
because I think it would prove the case
to any non-believers in a heartbeat that-

322
00:20:28,328 --> 00:20:28,428
Yep

323
00:20:28,648 --> 00:20:33,068
… 
it works because people are watching even
if they're not clicking and commenting

324
00:20:33,108 --> 00:20:34,628
and doing those kinds of actions.

325
00:20:35,017 --> 00:20:37,638
And Michelle, they're, they're
watching, you know, that's a key point.

326
00:20:37,717 --> 00:20:41,057
They're watching who shows up,
and more importantly, they're

327
00:20:41,077 --> 00:20:43,158
watching who doesn't show up, right?

328
00:20:43,217 --> 00:20:45,097
And that's the credibility aspect.

329
00:20:45,517 --> 00:20:49,817
Yeah, so, you know, make
sure your people are active.

330
00:20:50,037 --> 00:20:51,977
Give them the, the guardrails.

331
00:20:52,068 --> 00:20:54,747
Guardrails don't mean control, right?

332
00:20:54,767 --> 00:20:57,507
It doesn't mean that you've gotta,
you know, be so rigid that, um,

333
00:20:57,587 --> 00:21:00,728
you know, it's do it this way
or, or don't do it at all, right?

334
00:21:00,807 --> 00:21:04,009
It's like, um, you know, you
need a set of guardrails, right?

335
00:21:04,169 --> 00:21:09,269
People sometimes don't know what to say,
yeah, on social media, whether it be

336
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:11,349
LinkedIn or, or somewhere else, right?

337
00:21:11,509 --> 00:21:17,269
And that's where a formal employee
advocacy program, um, you know, at a

338
00:21:17,329 --> 00:21:19,469
brand really comes into its own, right?

339
00:21:19,509 --> 00:21:24,989
You're giving the space and you're
giving the security, the comfort, right,

340
00:21:25,049 --> 00:21:30,649
of being able to share, yeah, some,
some pre-authored content, pre-created

341
00:21:30,709 --> 00:21:35,389
content that the employee can then
take and, and make their own, put their

342
00:21:35,450 --> 00:21:37,829
own opinions, put their own voice.

343
00:21:37,929 --> 00:21:41,989
Um, you know, my social media
team, um, are Americans.

344
00:21:42,029 --> 00:21:46,269
Nothing wrong with Americans, but,
um, they put Zs in very funny places.

345
00:21:46,330 --> 00:21:50,649
And they're also younger than me, and
they put exclamation marks at the end

346
00:21:50,709 --> 00:21:53,349
of every sentence, and they use emojis.

347
00:21:53,409 --> 00:21:55,209
I'm a 55-year-old man.

348
00:21:55,229 --> 00:21:58,610
If, if I use an emoji in a post,
my kids would laugh at me, right?

349
00:21:58,650 --> 00:22:03,669
So, you know, I need the flexibility, but
likewise, like, um, you know, maybe I need

350
00:22:03,689 --> 00:22:08,889
the, uh, the safety blanket, um, or the,
the, the, the security blanket of someone

351
00:22:08,949 --> 00:22:14,669
helping me construct, yeah, what I can
and, and, and you know, how I should react

352
00:22:14,729 --> 00:22:17,169
and be- behave on, on, on social media.

353
00:22:17,563 --> 00:22:19,343
Yeah, and it is a sliding scale.

354
00:22:19,443 --> 00:22:23,703
We get everyone from, "Leave me alone,
I can post it myself," through to, "You

355
00:22:23,783 --> 00:22:27,304
just give it to me- Right … and I'll
post whatever you tell me to," to, "Don't

356
00:22:27,364 --> 00:22:28,883
come near me," and everywhere in between.

357
00:22:28,904 --> 00:22:32,723
And that's what I think I love
about my job, is working to find out

358
00:22:32,904 --> 00:22:36,643
what is it that that employee needs
support with for them to find their

359
00:22:36,743 --> 00:22:38,323
own voice, you know, ultimately.

360
00:22:38,643 --> 00:22:42,323
And where we start and where we finish
over time, they can be very different

361
00:22:42,383 --> 00:22:44,603
places, and that's the exciting part.

362
00:22:45,303 --> 00:22:48,103
Everybody on the, that listens
to this podcast knows that I

363
00:22:48,163 --> 00:22:49,583
love all things Company Pages.

364
00:22:49,703 --> 00:22:53,823
Call me crazy, but I think they're still
an important part of this discussion.

365
00:22:54,383 --> 00:22:59,563
Now, where do you see the LinkedIn
Company Pages fitting into this broader

366
00:22:59,683 --> 00:23:01,703
ecosystem that we're talking about?

367
00:23:02,043 --> 00:23:05,523
Because I see the page as always
the credibility base, you know?

368
00:23:05,543 --> 00:23:09,483
And often that's the piece that
attracts employees to come and

369
00:23:09,543 --> 00:23:11,083
work for the particular brand.

370
00:23:11,543 --> 00:23:15,083
And then the way I see it from
there is the employees can help

371
00:23:15,143 --> 00:23:16,883
create some momentum around it.

372
00:23:16,923 --> 00:23:20,523
But I'm, I'm curious where it
fits from your side of the thing.

373
00:23:20,603 --> 00:23:24,103
'Cause I know the Octopost page,
for instance, is super active.

374
00:23:24,143 --> 00:23:26,624
You've got your team out there
running campaigns all the time.

375
00:23:26,704 --> 00:23:27,643
I notice it.

376
00:23:27,664 --> 00:23:28,923
They're out there and doing that.

377
00:23:28,963 --> 00:23:31,283
But yeah, what, what does
that look like on your side?

378
00:23:31,864 --> 00:23:32,024
Yeah.

379
00:23:32,054 --> 00:23:34,924
So look, Michelle, I completely
agree with you, right?

380
00:23:34,984 --> 00:23:40,264
That, um, you know, the, it, it's,
it's not an either/or decision, right?

381
00:23:40,324 --> 00:23:42,264
Or an either/or conversation, right?

382
00:23:42,304 --> 00:23:45,244
It's not the Company
Page versus employees.

383
00:23:45,724 --> 00:23:51,294
The real power is when you can get them
to come together and work together, right?

384
00:23:51,324 --> 00:23:53,684
It's called a marketing mix, right?

385
00:23:53,704 --> 00:23:56,044
It's like, is it organic versus paid?

386
00:23:56,144 --> 00:23:59,484
Is it a, a physical event
versus the website, right?

387
00:23:59,524 --> 00:24:01,764
It's, it's, it's not one of those things.

388
00:24:01,804 --> 00:24:05,844
And, and that's the same for, you
know, the Company Page versus, um, you

389
00:24:05,864 --> 00:24:08,304
know, an employee advocacy program.

390
00:24:08,724 --> 00:24:13,504
The real power of organic social
is when you can get those two

391
00:24:13,564 --> 00:24:15,744
components working hand-in-hand.

392
00:24:15,844 --> 00:24:20,254
I see, the Company Page is really
the credibility anchor that

393
00:24:20,294 --> 00:24:21,394
you talk about there, right?

394
00:24:21,454 --> 00:24:24,424
The credibility anchor
of the organisation.

395
00:24:24,474 --> 00:24:29,574
It provides consistency, um,
authority, positioning, and,

396
00:24:29,664 --> 00:24:31,834
and institutional trust, right?

397
00:24:31,954 --> 00:24:37,994
But the employees create reach,
reliability, and that human connection

398
00:24:38,094 --> 00:24:40,574
between the brand and the market.

399
00:24:41,196 --> 00:24:47,196
The mistake that some companies make
is expecting the Company Page to behave

400
00:24:47,256 --> 00:24:50,636
like a, a media brand in isolation.

401
00:24:50,896 --> 00:24:56,976
Organic reach is harder than ever
for buyers to engage with when

402
00:24:56,996 --> 00:24:59,316
it's just the brand itself, right?

403
00:24:59,356 --> 00:25:04,096
Because as we said, people don't trust
logos, people trust people, right?

404
00:25:04,176 --> 00:25:09,536
So, you know, for me, employee advocacy
without a strong company presence

405
00:25:09,576 --> 00:25:12,146
just lacks structure and credibility.

406
00:25:12,716 --> 00:25:18,576
And the best organisations create an
integrated ecosystem where the Company

407
00:25:18,716 --> 00:25:24,696
Page establishes that authority, and
the employees take that and amplify

408
00:25:24,756 --> 00:25:29,686
the relevance through authentic
expertise, um, and their voice

409
00:25:30,505 --> 00:25:30,746
Yeah.

410
00:25:30,885 --> 00:25:33,065
Look, people come and go,
employees come and go.

411
00:25:33,146 --> 00:25:38,325
I think the page stands the test of time
and will always be there as, the coach

412
00:25:38,365 --> 00:25:41,146
or the, you know, the person that's
there to guide the rest of the team.

413
00:25:41,205 --> 00:25:46,725
And so that's why I always … I like
people to see that it's an and option.

414
00:25:46,866 --> 00:25:50,965
Like- Yeah … you don't have to ch-
choose a side, like many influencers

415
00:25:51,026 --> 00:25:54,925
on LinkedIn would have you believe,
that you just have to choose a side.

416
00:25:55,045 --> 00:25:58,945
And I wanted to have this conversation
today to say, "No. No, you don't. You can

417
00:25:59,005 --> 00:26:02,215
have your cake and eat it, too." Just-
Yeah … or should I say, have your Tim

418
00:26:02,316 --> 00:26:04,476
Tam and eat it, too, uh, in my world.

419
00:26:04,615 --> 00:26:04,945
But, um-

420
00:26:04,945 --> 00:26:07,995
Well, with your tim tam, you, you've got
a cup of tea as well, right, Michelle?

421
00:26:08,035 --> 00:26:08,455
So, you know-

422
00:26:08,555 --> 00:26:09,375
Absolutely

423
00:26:09,415 --> 00:26:12,156
… 
may- maybe the employee is
the Tim Tam and the brand is

424
00:26:12,195 --> 00:26:13,895
the tea, or vice versa, right?

425
00:26:14,156 --> 00:26:14,735
Exactly.

426
00:26:14,755 --> 00:26:18,655
And we're gonna do a Tim Tam slam
and just make the best product ever.

427
00:26:18,676 --> 00:26:18,686
Exactly.

428
00:26:18,695 --> 00:26:24,274
So fr- from that perspective, I, I
think that … and we spoke about this

429
00:26:24,355 --> 00:26:30,531
earlier, that one of the things that I
think happens for B2B marketers is It's

430
00:26:30,591 --> 00:26:35,411
really tricky to show that employee
advocacy's actually contributing to

431
00:26:35,451 --> 00:26:40,011
things like trust in the business,
brand awareness, influence, pipeline,

432
00:26:40,031 --> 00:26:43,511
these types of things, and not
just those likes and impressions.

433
00:26:43,551 --> 00:26:47,471
Like, what would you say to people
who are struggling with that?

434
00:26:47,651 --> 00:26:52,461
And I know that your tool can help them,
and feel free to share about that because

435
00:26:52,591 --> 00:26:57,231
I think it's important for people to
understand that just because you currently

436
00:26:57,271 --> 00:27:00,211
don't know how to do it doesn't mean
that there aren't options out there for

437
00:27:00,311 --> 00:27:04,611
people to really, almost I feel like
they have to justify their existence.

438
00:27:04,691 --> 00:27:09,251
You shouldn't have to, but sometimes
numbers speak volumes, no matter how

439
00:27:09,291 --> 00:27:11,591
much you trust your gut instinct, right?

440
00:27:12,311 --> 00:27:13,151
Yeah, no, true.

441
00:27:13,231 --> 00:27:17,671
And look, I think that, um, you know,
this is where B2B marketing n- really

442
00:27:17,731 --> 00:27:20,031
needs to mature quite significantly.

443
00:27:20,391 --> 00:27:25,591
Too many organisations still measure
social success through what I would class

444
00:27:25,651 --> 00:27:30,151
as vanity metrics because, you know,
as you said, it's what we know, right?

445
00:27:30,231 --> 00:27:34,931
It's easy to report on the number
of likes, um, you know, the number

446
00:27:35,031 --> 00:27:38,611
of, um, you know, the amount of
engagement that I got on a particular

447
00:27:38,691 --> 00:27:44,251
post, yeah, but it's difficult to
understand who's engaging with that

448
00:27:44,291 --> 00:27:50,391
post and be able to correlate that,
yeah, to, um, specific outcomes, right?

449
00:27:50,431 --> 00:27:55,171
Being able to connect organic social
all the way through to, uh, to, to

450
00:27:55,211 --> 00:27:57,031
revenue and revenue attribution.

451
00:27:57,521 --> 00:28:02,161
So for me, the more important
question is what commercial outcomes

452
00:28:02,401 --> 00:28:05,581
are social activities influencing?

453
00:28:06,021 --> 00:28:11,001
And if I looked at things like, you
know, inbound, um, conversations

454
00:28:11,081 --> 00:28:17,381
generated through employee advocacy
or influence pipeline, um, sales cycle

455
00:28:17,461 --> 00:28:23,081
acceleration, engagement from target
accounts, these are all things that are

456
00:28:23,121 --> 00:28:29,341
relevant to me as a CMO as I look to,
to get a seat at the table, yeah, with

457
00:28:29,411 --> 00:28:31,351
the, uh, with the revenue leadership.

458
00:28:31,521 --> 00:28:37,401
And if I can prove, um, you know, those
elements and, and how I'm impacting,

459
00:28:37,411 --> 00:28:42,081
um, those from a marketing perspective,
then that's not only good for, my

460
00:28:42,141 --> 00:28:46,181
marketing team, but it's good for me
as I go to the CFO at the end of the

461
00:28:46,261 --> 00:28:51,841
year and say, "Hey, do you know what?
My, uh, my budget requirement for 2027

462
00:28:52,001 --> 00:28:57,041
are X because I need to do more, yeah,
from an organic social perspective."

463
00:28:57,341 --> 00:29:03,001
So for me, um, you know, being able
to tie organic social activities or

464
00:29:03,081 --> 00:29:08,961
social activities in general, yeah,
to pipeline revenue, um, is, is key

465
00:29:09,041 --> 00:29:13,701
to the way that, um, you know, I build
my budget, my budget forecast, and how

466
00:29:13,841 --> 00:29:15,581
I actually manage my marketing team.

467
00:29:15,681 --> 00:29:20,641
My marketing team are managed on-
Two very simple metrics, right?

468
00:29:20,761 --> 00:29:25,631
It's like, um, uh, what is our,
our total NRR, so net revenue

469
00:29:25,701 --> 00:29:27,561
retention for the year, right?

470
00:29:27,621 --> 00:29:29,361
Is it 100% plus?

471
00:29:29,521 --> 00:29:31,961
If so, tick the box, we've
done a good job, right?

472
00:29:32,021 --> 00:29:36,321
We, uh, we maintained all of our
existing book of business or grew it.

473
00:29:36,961 --> 00:29:43,621
Um, and then the second one is, um, my
marketing team have to contribute, um,

474
00:29:43,781 --> 00:29:48,981
sufficient, um, opportunities, right,
or leads that, um, that account for

475
00:29:49,301 --> 00:29:52,851
75% of all of our new business number.

476
00:29:53,181 --> 00:29:57,401
So the way that we do that is
based on the age-old thing of SQLs.

477
00:29:57,421 --> 00:30:02,181
But, um, you know, I need to deliver,
um, a certain number of SQLs each and

478
00:30:02,221 --> 00:30:06,121
every week, and the only way I can do
that is I've got paid… You know, I've

479
00:30:06,161 --> 00:30:09,081
got all of the marketing activities,
right, and all of the m- the marketing

480
00:30:09,141 --> 00:30:12,061
components, um, um, at my disposal.

481
00:30:12,161 --> 00:30:15,401
But, um, a key thing for
me is organic social.

482
00:30:15,621 --> 00:30:19,581
And I would say that because I
work for an organisation that, um,

483
00:30:19,641 --> 00:30:23,781
not only sells an organic social
platform to the market, but, um,

484
00:30:23,821 --> 00:30:26,381
are big users of our own software.

485
00:30:26,461 --> 00:30:28,881
I was gonna say, you walk the
talk at the end of the day.

486
00:30:28,881 --> 00:30:34,001
And I think that's how we landed here at,
is not tool first, it was people first.

487
00:30:34,121 --> 00:30:38,861
I, I come across you, shout out to
Zoe Bermant, who obviously introduces

488
00:30:38,941 --> 00:30:43,001
us, and it's that one degree of
separation which I just love the

489
00:30:43,041 --> 00:30:44,581
relationships that you can build.

490
00:30:45,101 --> 00:30:49,611
And I think when we look at it beyond
just the piece of content and look

491
00:30:49,681 --> 00:30:53,831
at how can we develop that awareness,
that trust, that credibility, those

492
00:30:53,861 --> 00:30:58,861
relationships, and nurture them over
that long period, I mean, that is exactly

493
00:30:59,421 --> 00:31:01,901
what employee advocacy is all about.

494
00:31:02,101 --> 00:31:05,921
Now, I'm gonna wrap up the show
with one very last question, which

495
00:31:05,961 --> 00:31:09,641
I've just recently started asking,
uh, guests that come on the show.

496
00:31:10,301 --> 00:31:13,811
If the LinkedIn gods were listening
to this episode, and of course they

497
00:31:13,941 --> 00:31:17,761
are, if you could ask them for one
new feature on LinkedIn, and you

498
00:31:17,821 --> 00:31:21,221
can't have organic impressions, that's
off the table, we're not even gonna

499
00:31:21,241 --> 00:31:23,341
bother there, what would you ask for?

500
00:31:23,805 --> 00:31:28,965
I'd ask for an API that allows us to
have social listening capabilities from

501
00:31:29,045 --> 00:31:31,625
LinkedIn like every other network has.

502
00:31:32,355 --> 00:31:35,454
Sounds perfect to me, and I'm gonna
make sure that those LinkedIn gods

503
00:31:35,514 --> 00:31:37,134
are listening to this episode.

504
00:31:37,494 --> 00:31:39,894
Colin, thank you so much for
everything that you've shared.

505
00:31:40,115 --> 00:31:44,294
I am definitely going to put the links
for where people can buy your book,

506
00:31:44,435 --> 00:31:46,195
if you wanna hold it up one more time.

507
00:31:46,634 --> 00:31:51,775
Uh, The Social B2B organisation, with
a Z no less, uh, is the book that we're

508
00:31:51,814 --> 00:31:53,554
gonna share the link in the show notes.

509
00:31:53,914 --> 00:31:57,074
Thank you for everything that
you've shared because I think it's

510
00:31:57,154 --> 00:32:01,314
really important that we just get
beyond looking at employee advocacy

511
00:32:01,374 --> 00:32:02,874
as a way to share more content.

512
00:32:03,054 --> 00:32:04,854
Thank you for everything
that you've shared today.

513
00:32:05,635 --> 00:32:06,374
Thanks for having me.

514
00:32:06,981 --> 00:32:07,621
My pleasure.

515
00:32:07,682 --> 00:32:10,842
So listeners, until next week,
what will you do differently

516
00:32:10,881 --> 00:32:12,022
based on this conversation?

517
00:32:12,241 --> 00:32:13,381
Let us know in the comments.

518
00:32:13,781 --> 00:32:18,361
If you are not connected to Colin or
myself over on LinkedIn, please do that

519
00:32:18,401 --> 00:32:21,481
and let us know that you listened to
the episode and what your takeaway was.

520
00:32:21,781 --> 00:32:23,021
So until next week, cheers.