[00:00:00] Ryan Colker: It's around the house, near the manufactured housing, you know, which you talked about relative to, uh, single wides or, or double wides or triple wides. Um, which, you know, sort of looking back at the sort of early history of manufactured housing, uh, wasn't the greatest housing, um, and was really seen as, um, sort of ISOs, you know, within.

[00:00:30] Ryan Colker: Um, we're seeing, you know, uh, sort of a better approach, um, to manufactured housing, um, you know, through, um, the, the HUD code regulations. Um, but we're also seeing, uh, the growth in, uh, modular, uh, construction, which is, you know, constructed in a factory, uh, but meets the requirements of the local code. Um, you know, in most cases a variation of the international residential code when it comes to remodeling and renovating your home.

[00:00:58] Ryan Colker: There is a lot. [00:01:00] Well, we've got you covered. This is around

[00:01:03] Eric Goranson: the house. Welcome to the Around The House Show. This is where we have a great time talking innovation around your home every single week. Thanks for joining us. I've got a great guest today. Ryan Colker, vice President of Innovation at the International Codes Council, welcome to Around

[00:01:19] Ryan Colker: the House.

[00:01:20] Ryan Colker: Thanks so much. Pleasure to be.

[00:01:23] Eric Goranson: It is great to have you on here, man. And you just had a great conversation here at the World Modular Annual Convention and Trade Show. And this is an interesting topic because I look at things and we have this big, huge push now from Tiny HO Houses to shipping containers.

[00:01:42] Eric Goranson: It is a game changer in the world of construction and somebody's gotta get their arms around it. And it sounds like you guys

[00:01:48] Ryan Colker: are working on that. Yeah, absolutely. There is, uh, a lot of opportunity in this space, but also a lot of questions. So, uh, the more we can sort of help to address them, uh, the more opportunities we have to get [00:02:00] affordable and great housing out there.

[00:02:02] Ryan Colker: You know, it's been

[00:02:02] Eric Goranson: such a challenge here. I live in the Pacific Northwest in Portland, Oregon, and they've been trying to come up with ways for, you know, we've got a massive problem here with affordable housing and it's, it's tough because of course we have to have places that are safe for people to live in.

[00:02:18] Eric Goranson: But we've also gotta find up new, innovative ways to make it work. And sometimes building codes, you know, um, I wouldn't say get in the way of it, but it makes it a little bit harder, but many times it's for the right reasons. Yeah,

[00:02:30] Ryan Colker: I think there's probably a combination of different things that, uh, create some challenges.

[00:02:34] Ryan Colker: I think, you know, building codes can certainly be a, a piece of it. Um, but. Uh, significant challenges around zoning codes and location of housing. Um, a little bit of nimbyism, uh, and those sorts of things as well. So, um, yeah, many different pieces that sort of add to the challenging equation.

[00:02:52] Eric Goranson: So what are some of the biggest challenges that you're running into out there that you see with this, that, uh, were hot?

[00:02:57] Eric Goranson: You know, topics of discussion for you [00:03:00] guys because I know what you guys are trying to do and we're trying to be as inclusive as possible, but, uh, you know, there's challenges, especially when you get into shipping containers and things like that, where it's one thing to build with a new shipping container and then you've gotta make it be able to fit into a residential type situation.

[00:03:16] Eric Goranson: And I know even some people out there have been trying to reuse the old ones, which kind of have some of their old issues with as.

[00:03:23] Ryan Colker: Yeah, so I, I think there's a few different things. I mean, first off is just, uh, folks understanding and learning about the different options through, um, what we call offsite construction.

[00:03:34] Ryan Colker: So, you know, anything that's sort of done, uh, you know, elsewhere than where it's gonna finally end up. But also, you know, looking at, uh, this concept of closed construction. So, you know, when something arrives to the job site, um, you know, the, the local inspector or the community can't really sort of poke behind the walls and know what's going on.

[00:03:52] Ryan Colker: Uh, and that creates, uh, maybe some mystery, maybe some, uh, you know, sort of lack of, uh, understanding or maybe even some concern. And [00:04:00] so being able to sort of navigate the various different. Choices around offsite construction solutions, uh, creates challenges. And so we're really working with folks to help navigate, you know, sort of what different options mean for regulatory approaches.

[00:04:16] Eric Goranson: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, when you look at, um, you know, the modular home community out there, you know, they've been doing that for, for decades and decades, you know, where you're putting in the single wide, double wide, triple wide. And you know, some states deal with that very strangely. Like up in Washington state for instance, you have a title for a trailer basically that goes onto a lot unless you put it onto a foundation.

[00:04:40] Eric Goranson: And it's fascinating how those different worlds works. And I think, to be honest, I think the future is gonna be in a modular home construction because you can just build it safer, more efficiently and more cost effectively in a building that's, you know, creates a healthier home while you're doing it. So I get this, but uh, [00:05:00] that's the problem is when you've got a, a building inspector, maybe that's looking at it going, well, there's drywall up, but I couldn't look at how.

[00:05:06] Eric Goranson: The wire was stapled or something like that.

[00:05:09] Ryan Colker: Yeah, exactly. And you know, we've got, uh, particularly in the, uh, residential space, uh, you know, a couple things going on. We have, you know, the manufactured housing, you know, which you talked about, you know, relative to, uh, single wides or, or double wides or triple wides, um, which, you know, sort of.

[00:05:24] Ryan Colker: Looking back at the, you know, sort of early history of manufactured housing, uh, wasn't the greatest housing, um, you know, was really seen as, um, sort of ISOs, you know, within communities. Um, we're seeing, you know, uh, sort of a better approach, um, to manufactured housing. Um mm-hmm. You know, through, um, the, the HUD.

[00:05:44] Ryan Colker: Code regulations. Um, but we're also seeing, uh, the growth in, uh, modular, uh, construction, which is, you know, constructed in a factory, uh, but meets the requirements of the local code. Um, you know, in most cases, uh, variation of the International [00:06:00] residential code. Uh, and so. You know, those types of houses. Um, if you're not standing at the job site, you know when the, the boxes are, uh, you know, sort of brought and assembled.

[00:06:11] Ryan Colker: Uh, if you were just walking down the street, you wouldn't know that it was, you know, constructed, uh, using modular. So, I think there's some really great opportunities there, but I think, you know, when maybe neighborhood groups or planning commissions hear sort of modular, they go back in their mind to, yeah, it's the trailers from the 1970s, um, which, you know, sort of creates a, a level of stigma.

[00:06:34] Ryan Colker: But in reality, you know, a lot of the sort of modular manufacturers, the, the quality, the um, sustainability, the energy efficiency. Of, of homes are, are even higher than, than what they would get on a site-built project.

[00:06:49] Eric Goranson: Yeah, I mean, I, I look at homes building in my area right now and, and we're in the springtime here, so we have days of rain and I'm watching a million dollar house being built up the street that has [00:07:00] plywood on the outside of it, and it's black because of the mold and mildew growing on the outside of that.

[00:07:05] Eric Goranson: And if that would've been a modular constructed house that wouldn't exist. And, and, and in a week, the builder's gonna be wrapping that with house wraps all attached on the inside. I've watched dumpsters of material. Of cut ends of material, get hauled off. I mean there's a million reasons why it is so much better to build these things inside and more efficient.

[00:07:25] Eric Goranson: Cuz if they have a 13 foot run, they can get 13 foot lumber.

[00:07:30] Ryan Colker: Yeah, exactly. And I think the other, uh, key issue is, is workforce availability. Um, you know, we hear from, uh, you know, builders that they can't get, um, you know, the trades in, uh, and if you're building in a factory, you don't have to deal with those weather issues.

[00:07:44] Ryan Colker: Um, you know, you don't need to, you know, climb up onto the roof. Um, you know, everything is, you know, a six foot ladder or less, uh, in the factory. And so you can think about attracting, you know, new people into the construction workforce that, you know, wouldn't want to be outside in the [00:08:00] rain, snow, uh, and those sorts of things.

[00:08:02] Ryan Colker: So, uh, I think it really presents another opportunity in that space as well. I

[00:08:06] Eric Goranson: don't know if a roofer out there wouldn't, whether it wouldn't rather be inside of a 70 degree building on an August day putting roofing materials up on a roof versus out in the middle of the summer someplace. Exactly. And you know, that's the smart thing.

[00:08:21] Eric Goranson: I see where you guys are trying to go in modernizing building codes so that these things get addressed fairly. I guess it'd be probably the word for it.

[00:08:30] Ryan Colker: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you think about sort of the genesis of the, the building codes themselves, I mean, they were written for a site built. World.

[00:08:39] Ryan Colker: Mm-hmm. Um, and if you're, you know, sort of then constructing in a factory, the sort of traditional inspection process of, you know, an inspector could show up at a home site, you know, every day if they really wanted to and sort of understand what's going on, uh, behind the walls. Um, but if you know now in a modular construction project, you know, a full module with, you know, the walls [00:09:00] enclosed, shows up at a job site, the local inspector, um, you know, doesn't really know sort of what's happening.

[00:09:06] Ryan Colker: You know, then you gotta shift the, uh, sort of inspection process back into the factory. Uh, and so we've been working on, uh, standards to help, uh, support that process, uh, and really allow for, um, confidence of, you know, the local, uh, code official that, you know, there was a robust process happening, you know, in the factory.

[00:09:26] Eric Goranson: And that's key. I mean, I've had my own struggles on my own projects in the same city with two different inspectors, right? Where one guy's quoting something, one guy's think he's quoting the other, and you, you get the, the, the standoff between two different inspectors. It's gotta be tough when you've got a third party out there, and I see why you guys are doing that.

[00:09:46] Eric Goranson: It makes a lot

[00:09:47] Ryan Colker: of. Yeah. And, uh, you know, the more we can provide consistency, uh, the better, and, and particularly in the offsite construction space. I mean, if you're dealing with a factory that may be providing, uh, [00:10:00] products for, you know, multiple different states, um, if there are multiple different sort of regulatory structures, um, that cuts into the efficiency that the offsite construction process provides.

[00:10:10] Ryan Colker: So the more we can make those consistent, the the better off, uh, and the more we can capture the benefits of off. Yeah. Is there,

[00:10:18] Eric Goranson: are there different, um, challenges when, you know, I, it's one thing to have a modular home being built. But I know that in this, this container home craze that's out there as well, that's a whole different thing cuz you're literally taking a steel box that was meant to be shipped worldwide with materials in it and trying to make a residential structure out of it.

[00:10:40] Eric Goranson: And it at times it seems like that can be the wild, wild west out there.

[00:10:44] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, absolutely. And so, um, that was actually one of the first areas where we recognized the need to support, uh, some consistency and some guidance around, uh, offsite construction. And so, uh, we initially developed guideline five for the use of, uh, and this is a [00:11:00] long one, the use of intermodal shipping containers.

[00:11:03] Ryan Colker: Buildings and building components. Um, there we go.

[00:11:07] Eric Goranson: You couldn't make that really any shorter to address it though. I know,

[00:11:11] Ryan Colker: right? Um, so, you know, we, we really wanted to provide some guidance to local code officials, to builders on, you know, how to effectively use, uh, shipping containers, uh, and, you know, assure that they're providing the, the level of safety, uh, required and.

[00:11:28] Ryan Colker: Since that guideline, we've actually incorporated language into, uh, the international building code, specifically on, uh, how to use shipping contain. Um, and then, you know, we've also done, um, we have a I C C evaluation service, which looks at new and innovative products, uh, to determine, you know, whether they're compliant with the code and provide, uh, basically a report that says, so.

[00:11:51] Ryan Colker: Um, so they've divided, uh, developed some resources around shipping containers as well. Again, to provide that level of confidence that, you know, the folks that are [00:12:00] using those shipping containers, you know, know what they're doing. Um, there are some standards that, uh, They're, they're using to sort of determine the safety and efficiency and, and all of those things.

[00:12:11] Ryan Colker: Yeah. That's good. And I've

[00:12:12] Eric Goranson: had some discussions with shipping container people, because at first I was like, Hey, I'm really concerned about using shipping containers. I don't want the lawn and garden chemicals in a shipping container to be used in the construction of my house. And now I'm hearing from a lot of the shipping container people, oh, we're either using first use or, or brand new one.

[00:12:33] Eric Goranson: Which, yeah, that's an interesting concept of, okay, what was in that container before I build it into a residential structure. Yeah.

[00:12:40] Ryan Colker: And that's certainly one of the considerations as you look at the, the use of shipping containers. Um, I think, you know, one of the sort of interesting things that you mentioned around sort of new shipping containers, I mean, I think initially the whole sort of idea around shipping containers was, you know, reusing, uh, material that, um, you know, didn't have, uh, A, a [00:13:00] use anymore, uh, or it was just too expensive to ship back to China.

[00:13:04] Ryan Colker: Um, and so, um, you know, certainly a huge sustainability benefit there. But as we move to, to more, uh, sort of first, uh, use or new, new shipping containers, um, you know, maybe that piece of the puzzle goes away. Um, but it's certainly a cool aesthetic as well.

[00:13:21] Eric Goranson: Yeah, I mean, I remember probably a decade ago in Seattle when I was up there, there was a Starbucks that was made out.

[00:13:29] Eric Goranson: Shipping containers, you know, setup up there that I thought was really cool, you know, that they actually went through and did that out of, you know, 40 foot containers, which I thought was pretty, pretty cool, innovative way of doing it to do, you know, a different style building,

[00:13:42] Ryan Colker: especially in a commercial building.

[00:13:44] Ryan Colker: Yeah, absolutely. And if you think about a, a sort of Starbucks, um, or similar, you know, type of application, those are great opportunities for offsite construction as well. Um, you can just, you know, create sort of dozens of the same model and, and pick 'em up and, um, just drop 'em where you need 'em. [00:14:00] What are you

[00:14:01] Eric Goranson: seeing out there in the tiny home craze?

[00:14:03] Eric Goranson: Because that is its own little thing as well, and it's almost like RV living in a space that you really can't drag the RV around cuz it was never built that way. But I have seen some absolutely wonderfully planned out and built. Ones, and then I've seen some DIY disasters that, that I've said, yeah, I wouldn't even wanna put that behind a one ton truck and drag it 50 feet.

[00:14:26] Ryan Colker: Yeah. Uh, the, the tiny home space is definitely an, an interesting one. And, and as you mentioned, we've seen sort of all sorts of different strategies. Um, there's definitely sort of lots of confusion around sort of what requirements, uh, apply when and where. Uh, and so we've been doing some work to, uh, sort of support the differentiation.

[00:14:45] Ryan Colker: Between how a tiny house is actually going to be used. Um, so if people are gonna live in, uh, a tiny house as, uh, you know, permanent residence, uh, year round, um, they should meet similar requirements to what's in the international residential [00:15:00] code. So your tiny house should be as safe and efficient and resilient as, um, you know, a neighbor who may live in a single family or, or a townhouse.

[00:15:10] Ryan Colker: But, you know, really recognizing that there are some differences, uh, you know, between tiny houses and your single family house. Um, for instance, the, the stairs for instance. Um, you can't have this grand staircase, you know, in a tiny house. Uh, and so there actually is an appendix, um, to the international residential code that that sort of applies exceptions for, you know, things like stairs, egress, um, some energy efficiency, uh, requirements.

[00:15:35] Ryan Colker: And so that's a way to sort of get to that permanent occupancy, uh, you know, type of approach. Uh, in a tiny house, we've also seen, um, you know, sort of, uh, for temporary, uh, or seasonal use, um, the use of, you know, park model or RV standards. Uh, and I think that's certainly fine if the building is actually being used for that purpose.

[00:15:58] Ryan Colker: Uh, we've seen a lot of [00:16:00] sort of, Use of, you know, the RV or park model standards for, uh, permanent residences in communities. And I think that sort of, uh, sends maybe the wrong message on the role of tiny houses as, you know, part of the broader affordable housing, uh, opportunity. Yeah,

[00:16:21] Eric Goranson: I agree. Cuz you know, and I, and I'm happy that you guys addressed as a group that staircase thing because you know, That's where I get into the Wild West comment on that stuff because loft stairs were nowhere in building code for to go into a bedroom, right?

[00:16:38] Eric Goranson: I mean, it just didn't exist. And to have to kind of put something in on to where people are sleeping in a loft, that was always one of the biggest issues to start with before that was addressed.

[00:16:49] Ryan Colker: Yeah. And, and so now, um, there's, there's opportunities for staggered staircase, ladders, you know, sort of various different, a approaches sort of recognizing that, you know, the space is [00:17:00] small.

[00:17:00] Ryan Colker: Um, and, you know, if folks are in a tiny house, they know they're in a tiny house. So, you know, there, there are gonna be differences there. It's so

[00:17:08] Eric Goranson: true. And then, yeah, I, I do see where you're talking about using the park model standard stuff cuz a lot of these are meant to design to be moved to the site, left there.

[00:17:17] Eric Goranson: You wouldn't wanna travel a thousand miles with one of these on a trailer, even though they're built with four or six wheels on them. They're not designed even with the weight capacity to really deal with that effect.

[00:17:30] Ryan Colker: Yeah. And for the most part, um, you know, tiny houses don't move once they're set. So, um, if they're gonna sit there, um, be used for permanent occupancy, they should meet those, those same requirements.

[00:17:41] Ryan Colker: Yeah. Do you have

[00:17:43] Eric Goranson: any other challenges that you guys are still working on with that? I mean, it seems like it's an ever evolving space. Uh, as far as the tiny home and even getting into the container modular stuff.

[00:17:53] Ryan Colker: Yeah. I mean, you know, certainly, um, continuing sort of the, the education around, um, you know, sort of [00:18:00] what, what different offsite construction strategies are, uh, what are the requirements, uh, that go along with them.

[00:18:06] Ryan Colker: Um, just getting folks comfortable with, um, you know, the various different approaches. Uh, again, Bringing back to, it's gonna comply with the same requirements as the building down the street. Um, same building code requirements. It's just built in a different way. Uh, yeah. And so that's, that's sort of the challenge that, that we're working through right now.

[00:18:26] Eric Goranson: Makes sense. Makes sense. I'm gonna binge your, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wave my own flag here on a little pet piva mine that I'm seeing out there right now. That I'm just gonna, it, I'm gonna advocate to you for I tell you what, I wish we had a drywall code out there that was, Okay. And here's my flag on this, this, I had an interview here with the, uh, with the Fire Safety Council, the UL Listing Fire Safety Guys, and they were saying the problems they're having right now with the new light drywalls.

[00:18:58] Eric Goranson: So we have all the new light dry. I, I can [00:19:00] walk into any home center with the new light drywalls. The problem is, is that now they're falling down at half the rate is the old drywall in a. So they're reducing their fire safety that they had. If they have a fire in a, when they do their fire testing, if they haven't doubled the screws up when they did it, the ceilings fall down at 50% of the rate that they did with the standard drywall.

[00:19:26] Eric Goranson: And we're not talking a, uh, uh, like a, a garage where we have a fire rated roof, but just your typical half inch drywall, they're running into a lot of problems with that, which I wouldn't have expected. I thought light would be great, but sometimes light

[00:19:39] Ryan Colker: isn't. Huh, interesting. Um, have heard, I know you guys

[00:19:43] Eric Goranson: probably haven't seen that yet, but I'm hearing it from the firefighters right now.

[00:19:46] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, haven't heard that. But, um, yeah, I mean, I think one of the great things about um, the code development process is that, you know, anyone can propose changes, um, you know, to the codes. And so if folks are seeing those [00:20:00] sorts of issues, uh, that need to be. Um, submit a code change proposal and, um, we may see that, uh, in a future edition of the code to address, you know, just those sorts of issues I'm hearing

[00:20:10] Eric Goranson: in the background right now.

[00:20:12] Eric Goranson: Drywall manufacturers screaming at me, but that's okay. But yeah, I might just do that. I might just do that. Cause it's one of those things that I'm, I'm hearing from those guys a lot that, uh, that's an.

[00:20:26] Ryan Colker: Yeah. And you know, we do have, uh, a couple, uh, committees, uh, through the Code Council that help support those sorts of, uh, efforts.

[00:20:33] Ryan Colker: So, uh, I think that one may be perfect for our, uh, fire Services Membership Council or our, uh, our, uh, fire, uh, code action committee where, uh, you know, folks from that community really get together and sort of talk about big.

[00:20:47] Eric Goranson: Yeah, I'll bring that one up. And the other one that those guys brought up were, uh, the stamped metal trusses as well.

[00:20:53] Eric Goranson: And at about seven minutes in when fire hits those metal plates that they peel back, [00:21:00] So I love talking to the firefighters. They tell me stuff that I've never heard of before. So, but you know, and that's the thing though, with, with this stuff, it is such an amazing, when you're looking at building construction and what you guys are trying to do out there to make better built safer homes that people can live in, you know?

[00:21:18] Eric Goranson: And really when people have a house built, or whether it's a modular or a tiny house or anything else, you guys are just trying to. Ensure that it's something that's gonna be sustainable for. And it's gonna be safe for them. And that's why, you know, how many builders and, and homeowners go, oh, those darn building codes, they're there for a reason.

[00:21:40] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and I think, you know, one of the, the sort of key things, uh, you know, about the, the codes themselves is, um, You know, I think folks do sort of, uh, have this in the back of their head that, you know, my, my local community is, is protecting me from whatever hazard or, you know, those sorts of things.

[00:21:59] Ryan Colker: Um, but [00:22:00] in, in reality, if you sort of look at the map of the US and where codes are adopted, uh, only about uh, a third of communities have, uh, hazard resilient codes in. Um, and so, you know, two thirds of the country has older, uh, codes, uh, or even uh, no codes at all. So, uh, FEMA recently did a study looking at sort of where construction is happening, uh, versus sort of where codes are adopted and where we're seeing 30% of the construction activity in the US occurring.

[00:22:31] Ryan Colker: Uh, there are either no codes or codes that predate, uh, 2000. So, um, so yeah, I think folks are, are, are sort of missing that disconnect. Uh, but, you know, sort of thinking that their local governments, you know, have have them safe. Yeah, and

[00:22:47] Eric Goranson: it's so true. I, I deal with, you know, our national audience here and I'll have somebody that goes, Hey, I just bought a brand new home and my kitchen vent hood is recirculating and it's not meant I, I don't have to have, as long as I have a [00:23:00] window in the kitchen.

[00:23:01] Eric Goranson: There are so many old codes from like the eighties and nineties out there in certain neighborhoods and communities or states, depending on who's monitoring that, that are just well out of date. And it's unfortunately up to that local jurisdiction to make sure, or state, depending on how they do it, to make sure that they update that stuff.

[00:23:20] Eric Goranson: And you're right, there's stuff out there that's 20 plus years old that they should have update. Because the rest of the world has moved

[00:23:26] Ryan Colker: on, but they're hanging back. Yeah, absolutely. And when we start to talk about, you know, sort of new technologies or even some of the challenges, you know, that you brought up, the, the code development process can capture those, you know, pretty quickly.

[00:23:39] Ryan Colker: Um, but if the locals, uh, state and local governments, you know, aren't updating to those codes, um, then you know, Those benefits are not provided, you know, to those communities. Uh, I think one, one great example is carbon monoxide sensors. Um, you know, which I think came into the code sort of initially in 2015.

[00:23:56] Ryan Colker: Um, but if a community's on, uh, you know, sort of a [00:24:00] earlier addition of the code, um, you know, they may not even be required to install carbon monoxide sensors. Uh, which, you know, I think, uh, most folks would recognize as a, as a key benefit, uh, to, to safety. No

[00:24:14] Eric Goranson: question. And I mean, and you get into so many other things with you.

[00:24:17] Eric Goranson: Think of how technology has come on building envelopes on the outside of the building now, where, you know, oh, it was, it was, uh, a house wrap and a in tar paper and now we've got rain screens and we've got all these different things going on there. It's a plumbing systems and electrical stuff now, and, and, and new ways of heating and cooling.

[00:24:38] Eric Goranson: It's, I, I really hope that, You know, the audience out there really makes sure that, that they're paying attention to this stuff because a lot of these new codes can actually save them money and save some hassles and save some lives if they, if they just adopt it and make sure that it's kept up to date.

[00:24:56] Ryan Colker: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's also, you know, maybe [00:25:00] opportunities for home builders as well. You know, even if your sort of local community hasn't, uh, adopted the, the latest code, being able to say to your customers that, you know, I build to, you know, the latest, best practices. Um, even if the broader community doesn't, that's, you know, really a.

[00:25:17] Ryan Colker: Potential selling point. Um, you know, folks are certainly, uh, interested in, you know, the safety of their family, low utility bills, you know, sort of all of those issues. So, uh, I think that could be a key differentiator as well.

[00:25:29] Eric Goranson: Yeah. You know, I'm in Oregon here, so I'm very familiar with our building code.

[00:25:32] Eric Goranson: It was fascinating last year going down to Florida and working with a bunch of builders down there and then looking at what they require because of their, you know, weather related, you know, hurricane codes and stuff like that. And a lot of that stuff made a lot of sense. And I also looked at it and went, man, why aren't they doing this in like tornado areas?

[00:25:52] Eric Goranson: You know? I mean, you've got wind. You know, why aren't you putting in some of this stuff when you're building New House in the Midwest, for [00:26:00] instance.

[00:26:00] Ryan Colker: Yeah. And then tornadoes has actually been an interesting one. Um, you know, we haven't really had in the past, uh, tornado specific provisions in the code just because we didn't really understand sort of the dynamics of, uh, tornadoes.

[00:26:13] Ryan Colker: And so there were sort of general wind related provisions, uh, but not specific tornado provisions. And so what, what we'll actually see in the 2024, uh, addition of the codes is, uh, specific language to help address, uh, tornado. Which really came out of research from, uh, the Joplin, uh, tornadoes. Uh, and so again, it's a, it is sort of another reason why up-to-date codes are, you know, really important because we're able to capture, you know, that new knowledge, that new research, uh, and bring that into, um, you know, American homes.

[00:26:47] Eric Goranson: You know, it's funny, and I, I love old homes and so I, I need to preface that before I start. But I'm on, I'm on a lot of different social media groups, you know, and there's some of the old home sites that I love to be on, but there'll be a [00:27:00] tornado go through and you'll see this house that has been completely blown off the foundation and is in the middle of a three-lane, four-lane street.

[00:27:07] Eric Goranson: And they're like, look how good that thing held up. And I went, that thing wasn't tied off to the foundation. It's in the middle of the

[00:27:12] road.

[00:27:14] Ryan Colker: Right. So you still need to, to take care of that and demolish it. So, um, you know, so

[00:27:19] Eric Goranson: it doesn't matter if it, oh, it didn't collect the, it slid off the foundation.

[00:27:23] Eric Goranson: There's so many things like that with the older homes that, that, uh, even though that they, yes, they were built solid. Yes, they had great craftspeople, but our building code is, has stepped up, at least in my area, it was probably the seventies to early eighties where we decided, hey, it's probably good to bolt things

[00:27:39] Ryan Colker: down.

[00:27:40] Ryan Colker: Yes, that's always a good.

[00:27:43] Eric Goranson: So it's, it's just fascinating how that stuff goes. But uh, yeah, I agree. If, if people could kind of rally around their local building departments or state stuff to, to get that going, I think it would be healthier

[00:27:53] Ryan Colker: for everyone. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:57] Eric Goranson: So what else are you seeing as far as education [00:28:00] out there?

[00:28:00] Eric Goranson: I mean, you guys are really involved in education with codes out there. What is your guys' programs out there as far as education? Cause I know you guys do a lot.

[00:28:09] Ryan Colker: Yeah. So, um, you know, certainly a few different audiences, uh, you know, for our education. Um, you know, code officials, certainly a key one. Uh, you know, keeping up to date on, uh, you know, the latest code requirements, um, but also, you know, opportunities for the design and construction community as well.

[00:28:25] Ryan Colker: Um, you know, we have, uh, a pretty good program to support, uh, contractor Educat. Again, around, uh, you know, codes, standards, uh, criteria, uh, those sorts of things. Um, and really helping to, to, you know, provide education, you know, for the broader, uh, industry. And so, uh, you know, we have, uh, education courses, but we also have, uh, certifications for particular areas, you know, of the code.

[00:28:51] Ryan Colker: Uh, so, you know, folks can, can sort of show their knowledge, um, and, and sort of again, provide that differentiation, you know, within sort of the broader. [00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Eric Goranson: Yeah. Yeah, that's important. I mean, it's, it's one of those things I think with, again, with builders out there, they, they are so focused on getting maybe a house built or a development built or a remodel done or whatever that, that better understanding, I think is really key for them, and I think it'll actually help them through the process if they take some of those courses.

[00:29:21] Eric Goranson: Because now when they're walking through the house, before they even call an inspection, they understand why that's.

[00:29:27] Ryan Colker: Yeah, and it actually could end up, you know, sort of cutting down on rework or, you know, sort of addressing any of those issues, um, that inspector identifies. And ultimately, you know, sort of, it brings up the entire industry, um, to address, you know, some of those challenges that, that may occur, you know, within communities, um, where you know, from house to house, uh, within a development you may see, you know, the same sort of problem.

[00:29:51] Ryan Colker: Uh, you know, Popp.

[00:29:53] Eric Goranson: So common. I mean, it's, uh, especially with some of the larger builders out there, it seems that if it's a, a problem on one house, [00:30:00] it goes down the entire

[00:30:01] Ryan Colker: street. Exactly. Which

[00:30:04] Eric Goranson: is key. Do you guys do any work with, and I know that you guys are building codes, which is completely different than zoning, and I think that that zoning creates their own issues and their own challenges when you're dealing with, you know, offsite construction stuff as well.

[00:30:18] Eric Goranson: Are you guys just purely in the, the. Lane, or do you guys actually get over into working with some of these other people on zoning as well, or is that just a whole other ballgame?

[00:30:30] Ryan Colker: Yeah, I mean, we, we do mostly focus on, uh, the building code related issues, but, you know, sort of often, uh, in people's minds, there's really no difference between the building code and the zoning code.

[00:30:41] Ryan Colker: Um, You know, I think the, the sort of opportunity is, you know, or, or the real way to think about it is, you know, a building code, uh, provides details on how to build. Um, whereas, you know, a zoning code says you know where and what to build. Um, and so you know that where decision is made first, [00:31:00] uh, often. And so, um, you know, the code sort of deals with whatever potential, um, sort of hazards are associated, you know, with that, with that wear.

[00:31:11] Ryan Colker: And so, you know, we do get into, you know, some of those conversations. I think particularly on the offsite construction side. Uh, you know, as I mentioned previously, you know, folks are, are sort of, uh, carving out, uh, maybe, uh, you know, disallowing, um, sort of offsite construction generally, uh, you know, within communities, uh, because of sort of previous stigma, uh, with, you know, particular, uh, offsite products.

[00:31:38] Ryan Colker: And so maybe dealing with, you know, sort of a little bit of that. Um, you know, we also see, uh, some communities that, that sort of, uh, take advantage of the building code to bring in, uh, maybe some, uh, you know, sort of more expensive or. Um, things that could potentially exclude folks, you know, from the market.

[00:31:58] Ryan Colker: So, um, you know, [00:32:00] things like sort of requirement of, you know, brick on the front of, you know, all houses within a community or, you know, something like that. Um, or, you know, they all need to have a garage or, you know, something like that. Yep. Um, so there is, you know, a little bit of that crossover. But yeah, I mean, I, I, I think there's, there's certainly a lot more work to be done on sort of helping address that, that differentiation.

[00:32:25] Ryan Colker: Um, I think the other thing that we've seen, uh, which also helps provide maybe some, some crossover, uh, is the expansion of ADUs or accessory dwelling units. Right? Um, so that's a huge

[00:32:36] Eric Goranson: thing for people trying to keep the mother-in-law out of the retirement home or whatever, right.

[00:32:42] Ryan Colker: Out of the retired home, but not in your home.

[00:32:44] Ryan Colker: Right, exactly. Uh, yeah, so I mean that's a, another huge opportunity for offsite construction, but also sort of, you know, mired a little bit in, in zoning conversations as well. Yeah, that's a tough one. And,

[00:32:57] Eric Goranson: and some communities do a great job [00:33:00] of, of, of grabbing it cuz they're trying to get a little more density out of places where they can go.

[00:33:05] Eric Goranson: Okay. There's room and a lot to do that. And there's other cities that are not in my backyard. You know, I don't wanna see that. What do you guys do? You know, I've, so I've seen a trend here, at least on the west coast where I'm located, the cities are now trying to build up these, um, you know, kind of homeless or houseless villages where it's like the, the mini, mini modular home where it's basically a room.

[00:33:32] Eric Goranson: With a heat

[00:33:32] Ryan Colker: source

[00:33:33] Eric Goranson: and an egress window and there's a trailer of bathrooms, is that something that you guys get involved or is that still considered more of a mobile type situation?

[00:33:41] Ryan Colker: Yeah, those are, those are generally sort of seen as, as temporary. Um, you know, they're, they're, from what I've seen, they're usually sort of excluded from the building ro code requirements of the broader community.

[00:33:54] Ryan Colker: Um, so I, you know, I would certainly recommend that, that folks really understand sort of the, the safety [00:34:00] challenges associated with those. But, you know, recognizing that, you know, homelessness is certainly, uh, you know, a huge challenge. And so being able to sort of deal with, um, sort of the social issues around homelessness while also, you know, providing, um, shelter, uh, and safety, I think is, is definitely a struggle for communities.

[00:34:18] Ryan Colker: But, um, you know, they should certainly understand sort of what, what they're getting and what the potential sort of pitfalls.

[00:34:26] Eric Goranson: Yeah, I, I saw those. I mean, it's a great, the ones I've seen here that I've seen on our local news is they've got like a, a almost an RV penalized, you know, construction, almost like what you'd see a, a cargo trailer made out of with some kind of foam in it, and then a little wall heater and, and, uh, you know, metal steps to go up to it with, uh, with, of course offsite bathrooms, but, I, I, I think it's, it's, it's better, it's better than safer than a tent, but at the same point, yeah, I, I see where you're going.

[00:34:55] Eric Goranson: Where that would be more of a temporary and a mobile situation. [00:35:00] Yeah. So what, what else are you seeing out there? Um, Are new products bringing new challenges to you guys? I mean, it seems like there's a new building product coming out the door every single day. Is that something that you guys are dealing with a lot, uh, in the international code like that?

[00:35:17] Eric Goranson: Yeah,

[00:35:18] Ryan Colker: no, absolutely. I mean, um, you know, while the codes are updated, you know, every three years as you mentioned, you know, we're continuing to see sort of new technologies, new so, Um, that maybe aren't, you know, specifically named in the code or, um, you know, sort of don't provide maybe a direct line from something that already exists, um, in the code.

[00:35:38] Ryan Colker: And so, uh, we've, we've actually developed an approach to be able to sort of get those things to market quicker, while also, uh, assuring that they meet the, the overall requirements, uh, within the code. And so, um, our I CCC evaluation. Um, can work with manufacturers to identify, you know, what are the specific tests required.

[00:35:58] Ryan Colker: Um, you know, how do I [00:36:00] demonstrate that my product, uh, you know, meets the requirements in the code. And so then, uh, the evaluation service will, uh, sort of take a look at those tests, um, and, you know, determine, you know, whether that product meets the code, uh, and then provide a, uh, evaluation service report.

[00:36:16] Ryan Colker: Uh, and so that report really allows the manufacturer to go to designers, go to local jurisdictions and say, you know, I've had my product tested, verified, uh, you know, it meets the requirements of the code. And that really smooths the process to. I mean otherwise, you know, a manufacturer would have to go to, you know, sort of each architectural firm or, uh, you know, each local jurisdiction and say, you know, walk them through the process of, you know, what this material does, you know, it's been through the testing, uh, you know, it won't catch on fire.

[00:36:46] Ryan Colker: You know, sort of all of those different things. Um, and so you know, that that's really intended to help smooth, smooth that process. And then, you know, sort of as that product becomes more and more familiar to folks, um, you know, we may see it in future editions of. [00:37:00] And

[00:37:00] Eric Goranson: that's great. As a designer, I've had that struggle with, uh, clients in the past where in today's online community, they go, I found these great toilets that I found over in Europe and this whole plumbing line, and they have it shipped over and the inspector goes, it doesn't have any of the single stamps that I need to see on this stuff.

[00:37:19] Eric Goranson: Where'd it come

[00:37:20] Ryan Colker: from? Right, exactly.

[00:37:22] Eric Goranson: And it's, it's not your fault, it's, it's a European code stuff and the local inspector has never seen this stuff cuz he's never stayed in a, a portion of Europe that had this stuff. And of course none of the stamps are on the thing, some meat codes. So I think it's, uh, as we get to be even more of a global awareness of products out there, it's gotta keep throwing challenges that you guys

[00:37:42] Ryan Colker: left.

[00:37:44] Ryan Colker: Yeah, absolutely. And we actually have, uh, relationships through our evaluation service, you know, with, um, similar, you know, types of organizations or requirements in, um, you know, Australia for instance, um, uh, Canada, Mexico. Um, nice. And so [00:38:00] really recognizing that that sort of globalization.

[00:38:03] Eric Goranson: That is great.

[00:38:04] Eric Goranson: That is great. Ryan, is there anything we haven't touched on today?

[00:38:09] Ryan Colker: I, I think we've, we've touched on a lot. Um, uh, so, you know, I think certainly, uh, talking offsite is, is always fun. Um, but, you know, I do get to work on some other really cool issues like energy efficiency and resilience. So, um, Always happy to talk about those things as well, but I think we've, we've covered the landscape on offsite.

[00:38:28] Ryan Colker: Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's

[00:38:30] Eric Goranson: get you back on again and soon and we'll do, uh, we'll talk energy efficiency and resilience, cuz those are two huge subjects out there that, uh, as we all know are continuing involving.

[00:38:41] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, absolutely. So where's

[00:38:43] Eric Goranson: the best place to track this information down? If there's a builder out there or somebody that wants to get some more education, where can they

[00:38:48] Ryan Colker: find.

[00:38:49] Ryan Colker: Yeah, so we've got, uh, actually an offsite construction page. If you just go to icc safe.org/offsite, uh, we've got resources there, links to some of the [00:39:00] education courses, um, general information about, uh, the support that that ICC provides. Uh, and if folks wanna reach out to me, it's just our colker at ICC safe dot.

[00:39:11] Ryan Colker: All right.

[00:39:11] Eric Goranson: Ryan Koker, VP of Innovation, international Code Council. Thanks for coming on today, man.

[00:39:16] Ryan Colker: Yeah, no, absolutely. Appreciate it.

[00:39:19] Eric Goranson:You've been listening to Around the House