this episode, we're delighted to welcome on Nova Cobham, who's a psychologist, a psychotherapist and coach, and has been a regular contributor to various newspapers and magazines over the last few years. So welcome Nova. Brilliant, and

Thank you for having me. Lovely to be here.

welcome, and thank you for doing this for us. the reason we invited you on was because we saw a post that you did a while back now talking about the anxiety cycle and we saw it and thought that would be a great topic to talk about for our nervous and anxious drivers who are listeners. So can we start with that? Can we ask you to explain a bit more about what the anxiety cycle is? Okay.

Yeah, of course. So, the anxiety cycle is basically quite a simple kind of cycle that happens, but as it does several iterations. It kind of becomes a little bit more complex and a little bit more difficult to understand where it arose from. And we get loads of other information that goes into it. But basically there will be a trigger of something that you fear or something that you are worried about, probably something that you've experienced before in the past. And at the time that didn't feel anxiety ridden, but as a result of the consequence of that initial impact, Then the next time you come to do that same thing, there's a fear attached to it. So you go into this kind of anxiety cycle. So it starts with whatever it is that's triggering it. So maybe for drivers, that's something like, Oh my goodness, I've got a, I can only parallel park. That's the only place I've got available to me. I'm going to have to attempt this. Um, and then there's cars coming along and other people are watching you and it becomes incredibly pressurized situation. So that can bring up anxiety related to other pressurized situations. It doesn't even have to be related to being in a car at all. It could be the last time you were under pressure because people were just waiting for an answer from you. It could have been at school when a teacher asked you a question and you're like, oh, I don't know, and you'll wrap it in the headlight. So it can be anything. But once that has been triggered inside you, that emotion and that feeling and that physical reaction to it is then in motion. So at that point You will then need to react to that feeling or do something with that feeling. So some people will react by kind of going into flight mode. So they will want to just move, remove themselves from that situation, either mentally or physically, or they might go into freeze mode. So that is a bit like the rabbit in the headlights. And so they don't really know what to do from there. They're a little bit frozen. All we go into that fight mode, which means that sometimes actually what that means is we kind of go into panic because we go into a sort of like, Oh my God, I've got to do something, but I don't know what to do. And you sort of panic and do any old thing, which doesn't necessarily go very well. Or it might be that you get very defensive in a different situation. It might lead to a little bit of road rage. Um, Um, it might lead to you not wanting to listen to people who are trying to offer you advice because you're just trying to get through it as best you can. so we react to the anxiety via those mechanisms. And then what happens after that, once we've reacted in one particular way, what we do, of course, is we kind of recall that and internalize that. And then once the relief is over, because we've got through that situation, that will be the next stage is when you've got through the situation, however you need to. And you sense that relief at that point when that relief is there, the last thing you want to do is go and dissect the situation or figure out what you did wrong and go back into that anxiety inducing experience. So instead, what we tend to do is we just kind of sweep it under the rug and ignore it a little bit. And then the next time something like that happens, we're still going to go straight into that anxiety response. So this does look quite different depending on the situation that you're in and the person that you are and how you normally deal with overwhelming or stressful situations. But you will be able to figure out your own anxiety cycle by looking for What's triggering you, how you're responding, and then whether, after you've responded, how you're responding to that. So whether you're doing anything about it or whether you're just leaving it alone.

It's a little interesting, isn't it? Because you can see, you can see that in drivers, can't you? I mean, we've all had that experience where it's like, yes, stop talking to me, everybody. I know you're trying to be helpful. Leave me alone. Just let me deal with this. So there were some things in there that I resonated with. We've all been in those situations. And I recognize. That thing of, do you reflect on it afterwards or not? So do you work out what to do next time? I'm a reflector, so I'm somebody who will reflect and maybe even go back and have a look and, you know, sort of see what I would do next time. So what could I do? do better or how could I avoid the situation by doing something differently next time? But lots of people do brush it under the carpet, don't they? Yeah, it's like, that won't happen again, then most things it does. Yeah, or it turns into avoidance so that it doesn't happen again. And of course, we've done episodes on avoidance, haven't we, because avoidance is fine if you're avoiding, say, a particular junction that really doesn't affect your life or your driving in any way, shape, or form, that's fine, but if you're avoiding All right. Terms or roundabouts or motorways, then it starts to impact on your life, and that's the problem. Mm-Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, and of course on an emotional level, what you're really avoiding is not the junction, but your reaction to the junction, so you're, constantly under the rug the kind of initial problem, which is this anxiety that you're experiencing around that junction, because either you have a preconceived idea of what it's going to feel like to have to be Yeah. Yeah. that vigilant or, um, to worry about whether there's too many cars coming, all of those kind of things. or that you have experienced it once before and it was really difficult, or you did almost, you know, you pulled out and then someone was coming up behind you and you hadn't seen them. Something that actually did happen. So, but that's the thing that we're avoiding, isn't it? Really is that feeling. We don't want to feel that way again.

And I suppose for me is, I look at it two ways almost. It's like sometimes you, you react to it because it's something that's happened before, or it's the unknown and you don't know what's gonna happen as well, and that sometimes is probably more, anxiety because you just don't know.

Yeah. Especially if you've had experiences where experiencing the unknown has been something not always necessarily, but often turned out badly. So people who have experienced any kind of trauma in their lives, they need to know stuff. They need to know what's going to happen because the unknown, that place has historically not been a good place for them. Whereas I love the unknown because I've, it's always kind of been something that I've, thrived on really. It's kind of like, Oh, I don't know where we're going. Let's just figure it out. And I, I like, I like that, but I completely understand why lots of people do not like that. And in different contexts, of course, I don't really like the unknown. It depends on the context as well, isn't it?

Yeah, and it's all about what predictions you can make. So whether your interpretation of the unknown is, yeah, adventure, exciting. If that's a habit that you've got into, sort of like with certain types of unknown, it's exciting, then that becomes your normal prediction that, oh, this is going to be exciting. If your normal predictions are, this is going to be hell, then that becomes your habit, doesn't it? Yes. Your doubt and your uncertainty and all of those feelings. And I liked what you said there about the fact that actually it's not necessarily the driving that's causing the problem. It's the fear of those emotions that's causing the problem. It's the fear of feeling that way again.

Yeah. And I, I don't know if you've ever experienced or whether your drivers are very experienced, but, um, that sensation where normally you're absolutely fine. So you're coming up to a roundabout, for example, and normally this roundabout doesn't phase you at all. And then suddenly, for some reason, probably because of the emotional state that you're in already, you start thinking about it and you start overthinking it and you're thinking, Oh, my goodness, really busy today. And. And then suddenly, what was never a problem before has become a problem. And again, it's not the roundabout, it's the state of mind that you're in, and the way that you've suddenly, for some reason, which we will probably never know, just clicked in with an over awareness that has frightened you in some way.

Yeah, I mean, that's really common, isn't it? And this happens to sports people as well, doesn't it? It's the golfers, the penalty takers who, something that they do again and again and again, almost automatically, the minute they start to think about something that's normally automatic, it all goes a bit strange, because you're thinking about something. It's not the norm, is it? It's not the norm. The norm's changed and it's like, Oh, okay. what do I do? I see that lots in people when there's a road closed and we're driving down a road and it's like, Oh, okay. The road's closed. What do I do? And then all of a sudden it's that panic. It's like, well, I normally drive down this road, but I've never driven on that road. What do I do now? What's in that road? And then obviously the forts come in. And I think that's, that's quite, you know, looking at that circle. It's actually really nice to have a visual of that, which is, you know, I was drawing it as you were talking through it. And it's like, Well that, that, that, it all looks, and it's like, okay, this situation could be this, this has happened, now I've got that emotion, what do I do? And it is that fight, flight, or freeze.

yeah,

So, If someone was in that situation then, it doesn't really even have to be driving, it could be before they're driving, or they're thinking about driving, or whatever it may be. How do we get? around that because I saw the article on Facebook and I thought that's really interesting. With this circle, what is your I suppose, what's your thoughts on how we can challenge that anxiety, if that's the right phrase,

Yeah, absolutely. To challenge it. Yeah, for sure. Um, and I think some of these are more difficult to do sort of whilst you're driving, for example, because obviously I'm kind of conscious of the safety aspect of all of this. but a couple of ways in which I, very simple ways to kind of challenge those things. So, one is to ask the question, one is to assume that When you have a fear, there's gonna be an element of that fear that has some truth to it. Like that maybe you should be afraid of it from some point of view. So we take the assumption that there is part of it that is true, but that it's not universally true. So you are not always anxious. There are times like, even if you're only not anxious when you're asleep, there are times when that happens. So it's not universally true. So I, I, I Go back to this idea of, okay, is it true? Is it true? Universally, completely, 100 percent true. And more often than not, people can immediately see, no, it's not 100 percent true. Like, there are times when it's not true. Okay, great. So, when is it true? And it might be with a roundabout example where you've done it a million times and not even thought about it. And then all of a sudden that becomes true that it's difficult to go around the roundabout, but it's true only in certain circumstances. So the circumstances of that fear are that I stopped and started thinking about it, that I then overthought it. I stopped making decisions and I stopped trusting myself and trust is a big one. I think we should sort of talk about that a little bit. And then you can ask, okay, so when is it not true? Okay. Well, it's not true when I'm not thinking about it. It's not true when I'm singing a song at the same time. It's not true when my daughter's talking to me at the same time, because I'm not thinking about that, I'm thinking about something else and my body is doing it automatically. And I can trust my body to do it automatically because I've been doing it up until now and it's been fine. So those questions really help. and then I haven't another exercise, which I, uh, do with my children, which Maybe not quite so applicable to this, but it's basically to just be asking, how do you know? So my, son used to play with his toy soldiers and he just was really loved, just really loved it. He loved the kind of strategic setting up of everything. and he used to say things like, Oh, I'm gonna be the good guys today. You know, my guys are the good guys. I was like, well, how do you, how do you know? So how do you know that they're the good guys? So don't you think that the bad guys think that they're the good guys? And he's like, well, I, I, I don't really know, but he stopped and thought about it. And it was enough just to get him to think about the fact that what he was labeling good and bad were interchangeable depending on the side that you were looking at it from. And it's the same with our kind of fears and thoughts and all of those kind of things. It's different depending on how you're looking at it. And it's different depending on what your worldview is. So if you can apply that idea. That good and bad things are only good and bad in one, from one point of view, then we maybe just open up our idea of what good feelings are or bad feelings are. And anxiety is not a bad feeling, it serves us. But what happens, of course, is that we kind of, we allow it to have too much of a voice sometimes, and we allow it to be stronger than our trust in ourselves. So, depending on the viewpoint that you're looking at it from, just challenging some of the thoughts that you're having can be helpful.

It is really relevant, definitely relevant to driving anxiety. We often talk about perspective taking, taking, stepping into different roles so that you can look at things from a different perspective. And this sounds very similar that, how do you know? You've labeled. this is this and this is that, but have you stepped into the other? What, what's its purpose? What is it trying to do? So like you say about anxiety, you might have labeled it as bad, but actually what's its role? What is anxiety trying to tell you and take that perspective? So yeah, that wider, wider view, you called it a wider view, didn't you?

Anxiety is future based, so we tend to worry about things that are based in the future that haven't happened yet or that we anticipate are going to happen. So just before you know that you have to go and park in that parallel parking space, you haven't done it yet, but you're anxiously anticipating doing that. So the anxiety is, is something that is based in the future. And so that sometimes can be really helpful, uh, to be able to look at, okay, so this is what I'm anticipating happening, and this is the reaction I'm having to that anticipation. But what if, instead of anticipating this, I was actually able to anticipate something different and I could rehearse and practice anticipating that more often, then that actually would become more comfortable without me having to experience it in real life at all, which is why athletes practice over and over again in their head, something that they're going to have to do so that when they get there, it feels like they've done it a million times before and they have greater trust in themselves.

There's that word again. Yeah. Trust.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I, that came into my head because, before we'd sort of come onto the podcast, we were talking about that idea of, what happens when people become overly reliant on the mechanisms that they have to support them. So whether that's relying, over relying on your therapist for help and dissection of what's going on with you and, and looking at things from different perspectives. The same sort of thing could happen in a driving situation where a driving instructor is, being incredibly helpful and instructional, but there is no trust that the person has in themselves that they can do that without that support around them. Confidence is confidence is trust in yourself. So having confidence comes from people allowing you to build trust in yourself by allowing you to have experiences that sometimes will go wrong and sometimes will go right. But you have, it's so important, isn't it? To just actually experience that stuff and be allowed to fail. That's how we build up trust and reduce anxiety.

And to be able to practice making mistakes and correcting them because then you're no longer going to have the what if that goes wrong. It's like, well, actually, it doesn't matter if it goes wrong because I've got the experiences of correcting it. So I know what I'm going to do if it goes wrong. So if it goes right, great. If it goes wrong, I go to plan B, which I've also got experience of. Yeah. Oh.

I mean, I think when you trust yourself, there's also the confidence to be able to say like, okay. Do you know the easiest thing to do here? I'm just not going to park in that space. I'm just going to park somewhere else. Um, rather than kind of going into the panic feeling, I mean, I still do it now. There'll be times when I'm like, oh, I'll park there, and then I'm like, no, I won't. It's a bit too tight. Uh, everyone's watching me. I'm just going to pull out and go somewhere else. But I think when, nearer to the beginning of when I was learning to drive, there were definitely moments where I felt like I needed to continue with that. Like, it was sort of like I was locked into the idea that, no, now I've started it. I'm in a muddle and I can't get out of it, so I'm going to have to carry on. And that's much more scary than just being able to say, No, I've just changed my mind. I'm just going to park somewhere else and it's fine if everyone's going, Ah, she couldn't do it. It's like, no, I couldn't. You're right.

Yeah, it's not mastermind, it's not we've started so we'll finish. It sounds like trust gives you choices, doesn't it? You've got those informed choices to, to decide what you want to do.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it just, it just relieves so much from you to be able to trust yourself enough again, to actually be honest about those things and be like, no, I'm, I'm still learning. So yeah, I'm, I'm not very good at that yet. And that's okay. And we tend to sort of get anxious about that. You mentioned shame before we started talking, Tracy, and talking about that. And shame comes from us feeling like we cannot be honest about who we are. And so it's much easier when you're able to be able to just go, Yeah, no, I'm not very good at that. Because then you've said it before anyone else can say it. And you've just owned it. Where is anyone going to go from there? And what's wrong with that?

Yeah, absolutely. It makes perfect sense, doesn't it? It just makes perfect sense. How easy is it to do, though? When you say, you know, that shame, you've got that shame. How easy is it to not be shamed in what you're doing? and become more confident. How easy is that?

and it depends on, where the shame has come from, I think. I mean, I think if we're talking on a level where we are ashamed of some of the things that we're not very good at, so maybe at a sort of lighter level, if you like. I'm not kind of talking about traumatic experiences, but, if you're feeling, if you feel that sort of sting of shame because people are ridiculing you, or you're embarrassed because you can't do things as well as somebody else and you feel like you should be able to, or any of those kind of things, then the only hit it's taking is to your ego. And I think if you can just remember that, like the only thing that actually is going to struggle here for a minute Is my ego. And after that point, I'm going to feel so much better because all of that ridicule, I've just taken it on board and gone, well, that part is true. Yeah. And then no one can say anything about that because you've just been honest. And it does take confidence to be honest about your mistakes, but it's not that scary. You just need to try it.

And it's just something to practice, actually, isn't it? Like you say, owning it. And I've talked on previous podcasts about, I consider myself an expert at a couple of things in driving. One's getting lost. Brilliant at getting lost. And the other one is stalling. I'm really good at stalling, but I'm also really good at recovering from a stall. So, yeah, I no longer feel shame about those things, even if sometimes the kids do take the mickey and go, Oh God, have we gone wrong again when I've taken the wrong turn? And it's like, we'll just turn around and go back again. You've just not got there yet. Yeah, that's it. We're just a magical tour. It's, it's an adventure. And I, I don't feel ashamed about those things. I, I own it, but also I feel that I'm helping my children and now my grandchildren learn that it's okay, that it doesn't matter. It's like, yeah, we've seen mum or we've seen grandma get lost a zillion times. There's never been a disaster. We've always got there in the end, maybe five minutes or 10 minutes late, but does it matter?

And I am notorious for getting lost. I mean, I can literally, and I'm not exaggerating. I can get lost in my own village. This is how bad my sense of direction is. It's absolutely terrible. I have to be able to visualize something in my mind before I can do it. So. I get lost all the time and people take the mickey out of me, relentlessly, including my son. And, and actually I recently did it with my daughter. So I was taking her to school and ended up going the wrong way. And, uh, she's like, mommy, we're, we're going the wrong way. I'm like, Oh my God. Yes, we are. and turned around. And I used to get a little bit defensive because it used to be sort of like, oh, Nova's just terrible and she always gets lost. And I'd be a bit defensive because it's not the case all the time. And actually, because I can visualize things, I normally, as soon as I can see that, I've actually got a good sense of direction at that point. so I'd get a bit defensive, like, no, that's not true. and then I thought, hang on a minute, this is not getting us anywhere. And I have amazing stories to tell of when I got lost.

Yeah. I

Much better and funnier than, you know, oh, I just arrived on time and I went the right way. So now it's something that I really embrace.

is, it's embracing it yourself, isn't it? You know, we, you know, these, I'm gonna say mistakes, but they're not really mistakes. They're just little errors, you know, and embracing that and it's just like, okay, yeah, whatever. It's, it's, it's quite a nice feeling, isn't it? I think. It's an easy way to express it.

That's so much more freeing, I think, definitely.

You mentioned part of the cycle about being, do you reflect on what happened, or do you brush it under the carpet? So, if somebody were to go, actually, next time I'm going to reflect, how would they go about doing that? Neutral.

personal, but I think that a way to reflect on it would to be just, first of all, you would need to actually be comfortable with owning how you felt. and be resilient enough, I guess, to actually want to do that work. So I think if you just frame it initially as, I don't like that feeling of anxiety. Okay, fine. I know. that at some point that is going to arise again. So I can have the relief in between of not experiencing that and then knowing that it's going to appear again at some point or I can do the hard bit now which is the reflection and the understanding of it so that potentially it will be not there or it will be less in force when it arrives next time. So there's that piece around it but then For me, it's looking at, okay, what actually happened. So, what actually happened, and then looking at it from a very neutral perspective initially. So, what actually happened was, I drove up to the roundabout, The roundabout was busier than usual and I started to think am I going to be able to get out of the roundabout with all of these people behind me without them honking their horn at me? That's what actually happened, let's say. And then you're looking at, okay, so how did I react to what happened? And how I reacted was I started to feel panicked. And panic feels like my heart's starting to beat a lot faster and my shoulder's becoming tense and then my hand's becoming tense. And then I eventually found a space to move away into the roundabout and I did actually cut it a bit fine because I was panicky because there were people behind me. So I made some, I did a, made a judgment call that under less pressure I would not have made and actually was more dangerous this way. So you're just kind of stage by stage looking at what happened and then the reflecting part is you going, Okay, so what if I had gone up to that roundabout and I had felt that panic, but I just decided to take my time anyway, so you just look at different scenarios. So what, because the hard part is going, Okay, let's just say I went up the roundabout, I didn't feel anxious. It's like, Okay, great. But how do I do that? So we're going to assume that that will arise. And say, okay, but in light of the fact that I'm going to be feeling this way, what would be another decision that would be better than the decision I made before, or a slightly different decision? So my slightly different decision would be even with that panic, what I would like to do next time is to ignore the fact that there are people behind me and put my safety first and the safety of the people in the car with me. I will put that first, even if I'm panicked. I will put that first. So it's just a slight shift that doesn't assume that you will magically never have these feelings again, but that with the feelings you will still be able to function in a way that you wish to function. And I think that's an important kind of distinction and only a small shift for your brain to get around. And then of course, you'll probably find that that becomes easier and you practice more and more, or, and it might be, I will go back to that roundabout again when it's quieter, and I will just do it two or three times. And I will just get used to trusting myself to take through that roundabout again. Whatever it means for you, and you will find your own way of, of challenging yourself on it. Key thing is to reflect on it neutrally, and then look at what you can do even with that feeling available to you.

because so many people just want to magic away the feeling, like you say, and we talk about the fact there is no magic wand, and we say this so often, it's no good wishing that feeling away, because actually then you stay stuck. Because if you're, if your only solution is that you're wishing it would go away, you're stuck where you are. It's about what can you do, how much can you cope with, what's within, what is a bit of a challenge, but not so much, you're going to have a meltdown. But having it alongside. And yeah, working out how much, how much you can have, how long for, or how much you can have it alongside. So you, you're in control, but you're accepting that those feelings will still be there while you're working on it.

Yeah. And I mean, if you just think about the kind of mechanism of being able to think about something constantly and not want to be feeling it. So it's sort of like, well, I wish I didn't have this feeling. but that in itself is thinking about the feeling. Yeah. So you wishing it is actually almost keeping it because you are focused on it again, rather than taking the focus off how you're feeling and say, with this feeling, what I would like to do next is this, and then you're actually focused on this, not this.

Yeah, that's great. And that's a really clear, succinct sentence. for people to take forward with this feeling, I would like to do and fill in what it is that they would like to do. I think that's great. Yeah, I've just written it down. Yeah. I'll be using that. Fantastic. Nova, when we invited you on, was there anything that you thought, oh, I really want to make sure I talk about this, that, or the other? Or is there anything that we haven't covered yet that you were hoping to talk about?

I think the only thing that sort of came up in our discussion was around this idea of people keeping the way that they're feeling secret from other people.

Yes, we didn't. Yes, we didn't talk about that. And that is one of the things that we've found out while we've been working with people is that people feel very alone in their driving anxiety and parts of it is because so many people don't talk about it. Many people keep it a secret so just their nearest and dearest know, but the, their wider circles don't know. And then we've also had experiences where sometimes even their nearest and dearest don't know. So people keep it a secret, but make all sorts of excuses so that it's hidden. And so it is a bit of a hidden problem for some people. And you were really interested in that, weren't you, in the idea that people are keeping this a secret?

Yeah, yeah, because whenever I see that coming up when people are keeping things a secret or a part of themselves a secret It's always really really damaging for a start Because not only is that Impeding the closeness that you have with those other people that you're not sharing it with because it's a whole part of you that you're not sharing But also, I know that the minute you share that, it becomes so much easier. It's the hiding of it that is the problem, not the thing that you're experiencing. And I think that it's very difficult to communicate those things because we've got the shame attached to it as well. So, What are people going to think of me if I share this about me, and will it rock their sense of what my identity is for me to share that things are not quite as I've been saying that they are, or I'm not as confident as I appear, or I'm not as calm as I appear, and all of those things, we worry that it's going to rock our identity and the way that people see us, so it's a big deal, it is a big deal. But, I think that what can really help when you are looking to try and share that, and I do think that people should share those parts of themselves, is that it's helpful to share what it looks like for you, because then people will understand what it means. And I think that what often, we might do a kind of reveal, like, actually I feel quite anxious when I drive. And then they're like, oh, okay, fine, and it's never a problem, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything because they haven't got any context as to what that looks like for you. So it might be helpful for people who would like to share this and who are keeping it a secret to be able to say, I get quite anxious when I drive, and what that looks like is that I do not want to be driving at night. And that's why I leave places early. And they're like, oh, that's why you're always leaving early. And actually, sometimes it really explains things that other people have been putting down to other things. Or it's like, oh, so that's why you'll never drop me off there and you always park out of town. Because you don't like that car park, for example. And suddenly, all of these things that people have already noticed are put into context. And it's often a relief that they understand something that they were trying hard to understand and really couldn't. And it was kind of stood between you. So I always think it's, it's important to explain how you're feeling and then also tell people what that looks like. So it looks like this, and it means this. And as a result of how I'm feeling, I would like it if you would offer to drive home more often or something like that. because then people can have context in which to understand why it's happening and when it's likely to happen so they can help you.

Cool. Yeah, that's great. And because it stops people making assumptions as well. Because if you just say, I feel anxious about driving, people may jump to their own conclusions, their own assumptions, maybe based on the bits of driving that they don't like. So by saying, and it looks like this, You're getting rid of those assumptions and misunderstandings as well. Yeah, and you're almost getting help as well at the same time, aren't you? Because people, I think people aren't going to ridicule you for that. They're probably more likely to help if you've actually shared something. And

And yes, It's true that some people may go away from that and go, Oh, for goodness sake, like she has to park over there because she doesn't like parking over there. How ridiculous. And they might do that and that is perfectly fine because now you can get your needs met and they can go off and have their little Discussion and that's fine, but you're getting your needs met and that's the important thing because that's going to reduce your anxiety You're going to feel more comfortable Other people are going to feel more comfortable because you are not carrying that around with you when you're driving And if the pet that payoff is so much bigger Than the idea that somebody might think you're being ridiculous. They might But in the context it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as you're getting your needs met

the chances are, they're going to have an anxiety cycle of their own about a different topic, because this isn't an individual thing, this is a human thing that we all, experience in different contexts. So we've been talking about driving, but it could be a completely different subject, a completely different context for someone else that might not bother you. You know, yours might be driving anxiety and somebody else's could be a completely different type of anxiety that you might not understand. Um, that's okay.

and I and I I think it's important as well because You I don't wanna come across as flippant in the way that I'm sort of positioning this because it isn't an easy thing that just sort of happens overnight and where in one sense it could do because you could just make the decision to do all of those things and then go and do them. As human beings we tend to need to build up to that. You know, there's kind of a lot of work that goes on before that. Um, so. easy once you've got to the point where you're ready to do that, there is a journey towards getting ready for that. And that's not necessarily quick and that's okay as well. You know, it's taken me years to be able to get to a point where I'm owning stuff that is rubbish about me or that I don't like about me or that I'm not very good at. And the relief of doing that is tremendous. And yes, there are lots of people who are kind of like, you know, they don't like it and they don't want to hear it and that's fine. But it's taken me a very long time to get to that point. So what by all means, don't feel like because you haven't just gone, okay, cool. I'm changed that it's there's something wrong. There is nothing wrong that you're just getting ready to make those changes. Yes, find

just telling one person, you know, you don't have to tell a group, do you? You know, just telling one person makes it slightly easier as well, doesn't it?

Yes, find someone safe that you trust. That's It's not, you know, even if you tell a stranger, sometimes that's the easiest thing to do actually is to tell someone you don't know very well and who hardly knows you just to practice getting it off your chest, you know, tell your hairdresser when you're having your hair done, just tell anyone that feels safe enough for you to do it so that the initial thing is done and said, and sometimes I actually if you don't feel that you have that place. I've been known to just say it in the mirror, just to actually get the words out of my mouth. That's the first thing is just let those words out of your mouth and you can write them down and that helps, but you have to be able to voice it. So just voice it in the car when you're driving, voice it in front of the mirror, do it on your own voice recording, listen to it back and then tell someone else.

And there is such a power in saying stuff instead of having it stuck in your head. So getting it out in some way. Yeah. Brilliant. So Novel, where can people find you if they want to find out more about what you do and get in touch with you?

I'm on all the social things under Novacobin. and then my website is Novacobin. com.

Lovely. Brilliant. And so we often like to ask our guests just a little question at the end, which is, if you can cast your mind back to when you were learning to drive. What did you find the most challenging?

I found I would get very overwhelmed very quickly in lots of traffic. So, uh, not if we're on a motorway, but like in a town situation. If the traffic was building up. I would get very anxious. Oh, and the other thing that I used to get really anxious about, I don't know why, um, was having to stop on a hill and there was a hill, uh, where I lived that was very, very steep with traffic lights at the top. And I hated having to stop on that hill. 'cause I was always really worried that I would roll back into the car behind me. So, uh, yeah, that was what I got really anxious about.

Brilliant. And what would you advise to anybody who's struggling with those things themselves at the moment?

It was actually just uh, exposure. I just had to do it again and again Um, and every time I would worry and to be fair I still get a little bit concerned that i'm not going to get the bite point quite right and i'm gonna Roll back a little bit. Uh, but I do have a much more reliable car now in terms of the handbrake, which is Which is always helpful. but I think For me, one of the other things that helped with that particular situation was thinking, do you know what, the worst thing that's going to happen is I'm going to roll back and I'm going to hit the car behind me very gently because we are all at a standstill. And if that happens, I will immediately stop the car and then I will just wait for somebody to come and help me. Even if I have to just hold on to that. Handbrake, until somebody can come and help me. That's what I'll just do. I would just have to do that. And the worst that will happen is that I have to make an insurance claim for the fact that I've bumped somebody's bumper. And I think once I realized that that was the worst thing that was going to happen in that situation, uh, caused by me, at least, then it wasn't quite so bad.

Brilliant. Yeah, and that thing of exposure. And interestingly, when you said, Oh, something else I was nervous about. I'm not sure why. So that just shows you that over time, it changes. So something, you know, these things change, they don't stay with you forever. And like you say, that exposure, that doing it, that practicing, it changes how you feel about things. So that's, that's brilliant. Lovely. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you so much for giving up your time and coming on this episode. I think it's, there's been so many interesting bits and pieces in there for people to take away. I think that's been great. I've got loads of notes, so I'm going to practice some of them as well. Oops,

Well, thank you very much for having me. It's really enjoyable.