Today's episode is the permission to evolve Unlearning Allyship and Parenting with Ash Beckham.

Welcome to More Human, More Kind, the podcast helping parents of LGBTQ kids move from fear to fierce allyship and feel less alone and more informed so you can protect what matters, raise brave kids, and spark collective change.

I'm Heather Hester.

Let's get started.

Foreign.

This episode, we are going to unlearn and rewire, gaining practical insights on recognizing and moving beyond biases without shame or self judgment.

We're going to get the permission to be imperfect and discover how to step out of guilt and into authentic, evolving allyship and parenting.

And we're going to have real talk about hard conversations, learning how to hold space for both our children and the people in our life who might not, quote, unquote, get it.

Getting powerful tools to invite curiosity and navigate those tough conversations.

Without further ado, here is my conversation with Ash Beckham.

Welcome back to More Human, More Kind.

I am so delighted that you are here today and I am even more delighted to welcome Ash to the show and for you to get to know her and just hear the wisdom that she has to share from her really cool life and lots of fun twists and turns that she has to share.

So I just want to jump right in and welcome you to the show.

Thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me, Heather.

I'm excited to be here.

So we're just going to jump right in because I am going to direct all of you to watch Ash's TEDx talk after this podcast because it is phenomenal.

But we're going to jump right in and talk about some things that we talk about often here.

And the first one is really learning how to unlearn biases and looking at that from the lens of we all have them.

This isn't a judgment thing.

This isn't a finger pointing thing.

This is, we've all got them.

Now how do we kind of lean into them?

Say, ooh, there's a sticky point.

Now I want to unlearn it.

Yeah, absolutely.

I can't remember who said it, but there's this quote of, you're not responsible for your first thought, just your second thought and your first action.

Right?

So there are these things that.

That you.

We have a reaction.

There is a.

We are trained as creatures in a very animalistic way to recognize similar, as safe and different, as dangerous.

Right?

That is like how we land on the earth.

And so there is.

And that happens from the very beginning.

You know, we have things that are learned and there are certain nurture components there which we'll get into later.

But from a perspective of just pure nature, we can't blame ourselves for that.

Right.

So how do we recognize difference, recognize change, see that it's there, have that initial thought, and then what do we do with it?

Right.

How do we expand what we're exposed to, what our interactions are, what our level of empathy is, to be able to question that?

The way that we see it may be true, but it's not the only truth, Right.

That there's multiple ways to see things, multiple perspectives to bring in.

And so how are we intentionally putting ourselves in situations that force us to confront that?

Right.

And this doesn't have to be explosive.

Right.

I think we think of confrontation as something that, that can be so disruptive, but all we're trying to do is change the way our brain is wired.

Right.

So when we see difference, noticing how we react, being kind and gracious to ourselves for that reaction, and then doing something intentional.

Right.

Doing it with purpose, on purpose, I think is, is a key part of unlearning that.

But you can't, you have to be aware of it first.

And, and we get in this very guilt driven denial based, I think, and, and, and, and so how do we disrupt that in ourselves, let alone as a parent, let alone in all the other perspectives?

But we have to do the work ourselves first.

Right?

Right.

And I think, and say something if you think it differently, but that there's a shame piece in there where a thousand percent, when we feel, you know, once we recognize, once we kind of step into that awareness, and we're like, oh, like I've always thought this, right?

This is how I grew up.

This is what I was taught, whatever, you know, it is.

And then you kind of step out into the world, that first layer, and you're like, the awareness begins.

Yeah.

And I think it's that first thought where you start realizing like, oh my gosh, there's all these other either ways of thinking, ways of being, that first thing that comes is shame.

So how do we.

Get rid of that?

What do we do with that shame?

Yeah, well, I think so many people, there's the idea of being aspiring ally, right.

Like you want to jump in, you have some sort of awareness or some sort of connection to the LGBTQ community, to somebody, to, to somebody that's different, and you want to just jump in fully.

But you already know that your bias, either directly or indirectly has caused harm.

Right.

Because of the judgments.

And you feel bad.

There's Like a guilt that comes of, like, how could I think that?

How could I know that?

How could I?

How could I?

How could I?

I should.

I should, right?

And you just, like, judge yourself to death.

But all of the energy that we take in that blame, like, I think there is accountability, I think there is awareness, which is really important.

And to have that, that moment or that flash of guilt or shame, I think.

I think it's completely reasonable.

But we get stuck in that, and that stops us from actually addressing the problem and doing the good that we want to do.

Right.

We're so worried about saying it wrong or, or.

Or not saying it perfectly, or not knowing the 56 genders and maybe there's a 57th and I don't know about it, right.

Like, we feel like we need.

There's this bar that we set for ourselves that's unrealistically high in something that we're brand new to.

And we don't give ourselves the opportunity to evolve as an ally, to evolve as an advocate, to evolve as somebody that identifies an LGBTQ plus community.

Right.

It's new.

And we expect it to be instant.

And that our level of commitment or protection of the community is rooted in our perfection.

And we would never expect that of anybody else.

Right.

We would never expect somebody to not learn as they go to.

You know, if you're, you're always getting better.

And to me, if.

If that's what we're doing is we're always improving, then that's enough.

That's.

That's exactly where we need to be.

And there's an authenticity in acknowledging what we don't know, what we still have to learn, and, and to move into that with some humility and, and grace for ourselves and for other people.

Right.

Well, I think that'll resonate with so many people.

Is that permission, right, to, like, give yourself a little grace, to be gentle to.

I have a friend who always says, stop shutting on yourself.

Right?

Like that.

As soon as you hear that word, as soon as you hear yourself say that, like, that should be a.

Like, oh, wait, no.

And, And I love so much.

And you say this in a couple different places.

I know.

In your TEDx talk, you say it.

In your book, you say it, that this idea of, like, stop expecting to yourself to be perfect, right?

To handle everything perfectly and for those around you to handle everything so perfectly the first time.

Well, nobody's going to handle thing.

Anything perfect ever, because we're human.

So there's that piece of just like, leaning into being human and Approaching whether it's your child coming out as gay or, you know, whatever the hard thing is, right.

I don't want to say grace, but it is grace.

But it's also, like, spaciousness, right?

Absolutely.

Like, there's room.

I always.

This is a conversation I would have a lot when I would talk to students that were at whatever age of coming out and they were coming out to their parents, and that we have to just get a little perspective and realize that we didn't decide one day to be gay.

Right?

Like, it was an evolution.

And some of us come about it really quickly.

Some of us were always open to the fluidity of that.

I think that kind of changes generationally.

But.

But it wasn't just we woke up one day and did it.

So we.

There was a.

We grew into it, right?

And to not allow friends, parents, family members the same room to grow isn't really fair, right?

You just.

You say something to them.

I remember coming out to both of my parents, and, you know, there were challenges certainly that we faced along the way, but it's an unfair expectation for me.

I'm so.

I was so decided and Fern and finally came to the decision of, like, this is who I am.

And I wanted to say that.

And I wanted unconditional acceptance, and I think I always had unconditional love.

But acceptance is a process, right?

Like, there's something there that you have to.

You have to get your mind around seeing the world in a completely different way.

And we have to allow people, some growing pains to get to the point that we just turned there as a kid, we.

Or friend or whatever the relationship is.

We just turn someone's world upside down, and maybe they pick it quickly, maybe it takes them a while, but it.

The world is no longer the way that they originally thought it was, and they need a second to get their.

Mind around it, right?

And so as parents that are hearing this right, if this is on the other end, we have to give ourselves the grace of, like, okay, this is not the world I thought it was gonna be.

And how many times as a parent, does your kid change that?

You know what I mean?

Mine are at the age where it's.

You know what I mean?

They'll come home and be like, well, I don't like cheese.

Be like, you've eaten cheese for the last seven years of your life with no complaints.

All of a sudden, you don't like cheese.

Like, how is that possible, right?

And.

And as the stakes get higher and the things become different or, you know, all of a Sudden, like, I no longer like Bluey.

Now it's Spider Man.

It's whatever.

Like, the flavor of the day is right?

And it changes.

But it's their world and their reality.

And as parents were constantly navigating a world that's no longer the way that we think it is based on the autonomy and agency of our kids.

And what else do we want them to have but that.

And at the same time, we need some shock absorption when those things change so dramatically.

And this is just, you know, it's a little bit more loaded maybe, but this is no different than any other part of parenting of your.

Your kids just tell you, like, it's actually not the way it is anymore.

This is the new way.

Come on, get on board.

Right, right, right.

Well, and I think, though, I think there's a lot there with the.

The idea of allowing our kids agency and having that ability to kind of sit back and be like, okay, like, this is what it is today.

And that is so much easier said than done, I believe, for many, many people, especially depending on, you know, how you were raised.

Right.

And what your idea of being a parent is or was.

And I often talked about.

Talk about this in the same way, Aaron, the way of allowing your movie reel to explode, right?

You, like, as a parent, if you're.

If this is the way that you kind of originally parented was like, this is my child.

These are their traits.

This is what their life is going to be.

And then all of a sudden they're like, like, here's who I am.

I am telling you, I am showing you.

And as a parent, like, there are so many things that happen in that moment or in those moments where you do need to give yourself some grace.

Your child, like, the only thing they need to do is give you a minute.

Right?

That's the only thing.

But there's so much work as a parent to wrap your head around that allow that movie reel to explode and learn the things that you didn't know before.

And so there's, you know, a million little things that are happening in that moment depending on your parenting style, kind of leading up to it.

Right?

And I think what he said is so beautiful, if I just go back to it for a second is.

I don't know.

I don't think you can be a better parent than someone who allows space for your child to come to you and say, this is who I am.

Like, you.

You've won.

You've.

You've done it.

You get the prize, the gold star, straight A's like, whatever.

Like if you are succeeding as a parent, if you've created an environment where they can actually do that and, and I think as a parent, again, that's when the work comes to do your.

But like you've succeeded and now what do you do with that information?

Right?

Like, how do you listen to what they're saying and support them in the best way possible, knowing full well it could change again, Right.

Like, there's no part of growing up as a kid who isn't exploring all of these different facets to actually figure out who they are.

I think we forget.

I forget this all the time with my kid.

Of I expect them to.

To have all of.

Because I have all of the knowledge so I can help aid in the decisions that they need to make that they have that knowledge and they're not accessing it or they.

But they like all of it is new.

Everything they're doing is new.

Every.

My son just started starting to participate more heavily in sports and like all of those team dynamics, all of those things, like, he's just never done it before.

And there's so much of it that seems second nature to us that we just have to realize they're doing it, they are exploring.

Yes.

And our job is to make sure on this exploration that we have a safe harbor, that they have snacks, that they get the, you know, they have the medicine they need when they get the bite.

Right.

Like, we are the guides and that doesn't necessarily mean we're the pilots, right?

Yes, yes.

And once we realize that, oh my gosh, what a gift it is because then you can step back and be the guide and enjoy the experience of holy cow, this little creature or big creature or they get big is extraordinary.

And I you.

There's so much to learn from them.

Right.

Then it becomes like this kind of exchange of like our wisdom, right.

Our creating safety for them are guiding them to then being allowed to see the world through their eyes, which when we give them that space, when they feel safe with us, right.

When they have that feeling of like, ooh, I can be me, then they share stuff that is like mind blowingly amazing.

And so that's like part of the gift, I think.

And also just that acknowledgement of, yeah, it's hard to sit back sometimes and not say, well, I think you should do it this way or here's.

Here's all the things that I know that I want you to know that, you know, they may or may not care about totally.

Probably not.

And like, and not even I And not even I think you should do it this way.

Like I know you should do expressment.

Not even there's, it's not even an opinion.

This is just a fact of the way that you should do it.

Like why are we even debating this?

I feel like is the part that's so ridiculous.

But at the same time like that all of those moments are learning and that experiential learning that it's our responsibility to sit there and, and, and be that safety net when they inevitably fail or have their feelings hurt or make a mistake or do the things that you have to do to actually learn.

Right, Right.

In addition to holding space for just them to be them, their little authentic amazing selves, what other ways do you recommend or can you suggest for creating a really affirming home environment?

Well, I think obviously open conversation is like the best one.

I feel like even in my most contentious times with my family, even if we were screaming at each other through slam doors like we were always talking, always.

Right.

And so I think that that is a huge piece of.

I think that there is something about also sharing your own vulnerability as a parent.

Right.

Like we think that we don't want our kids to know that we're worried about them.

Right.

Or that we're, we don't trust a friend that they hang out with.

We don't or we don't want to put those ideas in their head that, that were constantly concerned about their physical and emotional well being.

Right.

But they know and if we can't be clear as to why we're worried with them then they're going to make up a story of they don't.

You know, if I'm the kid, my mom doesn't trust me, my grandparent doesn't think I am responsible enough.

They think I make bad decisions.

Right.

But, but that's not so rarely do we doubt our kid.

We doubt the circumstances our kid is put in.

We might question their ability to make the right decision.

But we don't trust other people.

We all, we almost always trust our kid.

It's everything else that worries us but they take that as us not trusting them.

So if we can say I'm worried about when you.

I'm trying to think of an example.

My, there's this team that my son plays on and they are, we're very critical of the other, of a team that we were playing against and of course you know, you want to be like ah, sportsmanship.

It's like all these like high level concepts that they don't really Understand?

But so I don't.

I didn't want my kid to have a play date with his one kid who's kind of the instigator in that.

And if I could explain to him, you know, and I often use too many words, so I, My wife is always telling me to like, condense it a little bit to keep their attention.

But if I could say, hey, buddy, when you beat like that towards a coach, that's not showing respect.

It's not showing respect for yourself, the other team or for the coach.

And, and, and then you, and then you try to do a little bit of empathy.

Right.

It's not.

You should be a good sport.

You know, I raised you in a different way.

It's none of that stuff.

It's explaining when you act, when you have, when you exhibit certain behaviors or you're in certain situations.

I, as your parent, worry about X, Y and Z.

Right.

I just, I need you to know that the end period, right.

Like, that can be the end of the conversation, especially as the kids get older.

Especially as trust and honesty become so pivotal in the relationship.

If you can be honest and vulnerable with your kid.

Yeah.

You know, I'm not, I'm not about to tell my son that I'm.

Every day, I'm scared to death that he goes to school because of all of the horrendous violence that is happening in seemingly, you know, blind ways at our schools.

I'm not going to tell him that.

Right.

I'm not trying to like, heighten his anxiety, but when it's something specific that I worry about, especially in his, like, interpersonal relationship, his relationship with me, his responsibility, his accountability.

If I can be honest about what I'm worried about, which is vulnerable while still making him feel safe, that changes the game completely.

Totally.

It totally does.

And I think just the two pieces there that I, that I love so much, it's the age appropriateness, right?

Like what you just hit on.

So, yes, yes, vulnerable, but yes, vulnerable in an age appropriate way and then highlighting something really specific that they understand.

Right.

It's not the, you know, the sky is falling.

It's this very specific thing and it's a way of guiding and not running their lives, but guiding their lives and helping them learn these very important life lessons because as they get older, we're.

Not going to be there.

Right.

There's more and more and more and more and more of their life where those guardrails are not the hard.

Don't walk across the street without holding my hand.

Don't Walk through the parking lot.

It's not that their suggestions, like, they need to draw on those guardrails mentally when we're not there to know the decision to make.

And that's what we're trying to empower them to do.

Right.

Is to be able to react in that situation in a way that best takes care of their physical and emotional safety.

Right.

Exactly.

Exactly.

My oldest lives in New York City and has for six years, but when he first moved there, I was like, is he going to remember everything?

Right.

Is he going to know how to figure out how to do the subway and do the, you know, walk alone and not take, you know, just all the things.

Right?

All things.

But there are still times, to your point, where he will tell me a story and I listen to the entire story and.

And we have to circle back on something.

Right.

Was that safe?

Did you feel Safe?

And he's 24, almost 25.

So now I can be a little more direct in the things that I'm skin.

And.

And he'll say, ah, no, mom, that wasn't.

I probably should have done this.

Why?

Mom's asleep at night.

Exactly.

But when you start having these conversations with them when they're young, it doesn't.

It's so much easier than when they're older to be like, hey, my friend, listen.

Right?

And like, you want them to tell you.

You want them to tell you the times that they messed up.

You want them to have that space where they can say, oh, because the person done that, as opposed to my mom or my dad or whoever, is gonna have such a overreaction.

Right.

That I can't even tell them this thing that I did.

I can't even process what I should have done differently because I can't have a conversation with them because they're going to lose their mind and think that I'm not responsible, shouldn't be there.

Like, even though you have minimal control of whether or not your son stays in New York City, there are parts of it is like, she's going to make me come home, she's going to make me leave.

She's.

You know what I mean?

Like, we revert to those ways.

And so it's that open communication when things are hard.

Not just the good stuff.

Right.

Like all the stuff and being able to sit in that, hear it, have our own internal reaction.

Yeah.

Perhaps shelve that to process on our own, but show up for them and help them work through what they've got.

Right.

And when it comes to something that you circle back on they actually hear it because it's in a way of, well, what did you think about that?

Right.

Not even a.

Do you think you should have?

But like, in retrospect, let's go through it together.

How did you feel doing that?

Like, what did that make you?

Right.

And I think also to your point, sometimes just allowing that space for processing, we don't have to say anything.

Right.

They just need to pro, like verbally process it and then like they pick up on the things and they're like, let me talk about that one more time.

Sure, sure.

Yes.

When he first came out and he was struggling with so many different things, we went through like a good 18 months where he didn't tell me anything and you know, lied about so many things.

And, and I completely understand why.

Right.

Like that was part of his process.

Like that was part of how he was going through it.

And now that we are here, where we are here now, of course I can see all of that so very clearly.

But I also want to say that it does make me appreciate the whole process of, you know, and one, you know, one parent might think, well, that's a lot of sharing.

Like, that's a lot of information.

You know what, it's a gift.

I am delighted.

I would much rather I'd have an overshare any day over a no share.

Absolutely.

A thousand percent.

Because you don't know like it it all.

I remember hearing another quote that was like, treat everything that your kid brings to you like big stuff.

Because to them it's big stuff no matter what it is in the moment.

And we, you know, we're like, oh, don't worry about that or we'll take care.

Either you fix it or, or you kind of brush it off because it isn't like an adult problem.

It's.

But to them, like, then they just stop bringing things to you.

And so how can you.

And with all.

And again I get like in the craziness of, you know, the late night work emails and all the notifications, going off and getting ready for bed and doing all the things.

And my son told me about somebody that got sent to the principal's office the other day and I was like, oh, of course he did, this kid.

I should just be there all the time.

I know this kid.

I don't want you to hang out with them.

I wish he wasn't on your sports teams.

I don't know why we're doing a camp with him.

Like all the things.

But you and I think they especially the young age of my kids.

Like, they bring those things back to you to see how you were to test it out, right?

Like, how are you going to respond?

What do you think if that happens to him?

Well, what if that happens to me?

Right?

Like, they are just kind of getting a lay of the land of your reaction to things.

A, you're just attention to things that they care about.

But then B, like, how do.

And I'm certainly more strict than my wife is.

And so, like, how.

How does that land with you?

What is your response?

Right?

Like they are consciously or not testing you out just for safety.

What does safety look like?

Or they like, have it in their context that exists in their school and they bring it home to this, like, safe space that they know and they kind of lay it out on the table and what does it look like in this light?

Right?

And.

And so again, like, I. I couldn't underscore more what you said of like, please let my problem be the overshare.

Like, hey, I can only let my kids over share with me.

Like, let that be the case.

Right?

I mean, I just.

I was actually sharing that with his.

My third, who is a freshman in college, and.

And she just got her first girlfriend and she has been like, I can see like the testing of the waters, right?

How much does she want to tell me?

How much was she going to, like, put out there?

And.

And I have learned now I'm over time to just.

I don't say anything.

Like, I.

It just.

Even when I'm like.

Like, I literally have.

Like, there are times where I'm like, don't say anything.

Don't say anything.

Don't say things.

Right?

Just let them keep going because they're talking and they're telling you really cool stuff.

Stuff.

Yeah.

And stuff that I never told my mom.

Right?

Like, oh, my God, of course not.

No.

Oh, Lord.

Like, I am so grateful.

But it is really cute because I can like, see it.

Like, I can almost like see her brain.

Like, I'm gonna just drop this.

Yeah, Sprinkle, Sprinkle.

Where he's just like.

Yeah.

And that's what I feel like the thing.

And obviously with.

With your kids, but for me, you know, I feel like we went through the first one and he is very much like me.

He's.

He's outgoing and charismatic and social and all of the things.

Right.

So I thought he was me.

So I was like, well, if I could just raise him the way I wish I was raised, then we'll be totally fine.

And it turns out he's actually not me at all.

We have a lot of things in common.

We have great ways that we connect, but he is a obviously an individual.

And so we.

I figured out with, you know, we figured out with the first one of like, okay, I just take that.

And we just do that with the second one.

And he is completely different.

But like, why you have to learn parenting with every kid is just mind blowing to me.

Seems wildly unfair.

Wildly unfair.

You should just be the way that's like why you have the first one is to like, get through that and then you have the second one.

You should.

All the same rules apply and it turns out they do not.

None of them.

No, not at all.

I am here to say I complete a thousand percent agree that I have four of them and it is like having 4,000 of them because.

Yeah.

Wildly different.

And I, I am so grateful because it makes it so much fun and so interesting.

And at the same time, like, each one has required a very different, different kind of parenting that it took my husband and I, for whatever reason.

Like, I feel like it.

You know the level of dumb, which is with each one of being like, oh, okay, this is how I do this.

Like, figuring this out.

You'd think that I'd be like a genius because people are like, oh, it's the fourth one you've done this year.

And I'm like, are you kidding?

I haven't paired as this one yet.

Exactly different than the other ones.

I mean, like, my, My youngest is now finally having like the typical high school experience.

I'm like, oh, good.

Well, I know what you're like, lying to me about.

Right.

Because it's inappropriate lying.

Like, oh, well, I've done that before.

Like, I know what that looks like, my friend.

So.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm also tired.

So.

Totally.

Oh, God.

I know.

Because it's like, you can't.

And their motivations for the things are so different.

Like ev.

Like why they want to do it, what they care about, what hurts their feelings, what is just water off their back.

Like they.

It's the whole gamut of it is just so, so different.

And that, like you said, it's exhausting and, and, and time consuming to be able to honor that individuality in each of your kids.

But like, that is the connection.

Like, that's.

What other way is there?

Because you don't want for the same person.

No.

Right.

And it's kind of the deal.

Right.

Like, that's literally like, that's what we signed up for.

Yeah.

Where we didn't Know that when we were.

We didn't.

They don't tell you.

Signing on the dotted line of being a parrot.

That wasn't in the manual.

Yeah.

But, oh, my gosh, it's so fantastic.

And I.

All the time.

I mean, every single day, I'm so grateful because the relationship that I get to have with these kids is extraordinary.

Right.

And kind of what you had said earlier, and I'd love to touch on this a little bit because I have a feeling there's some touch points in here that I want to hear.

So what have you, as you parent your kids and as you have, you know, these two extraordinary little creatures, do you look at and you think, okay, yes, I do want to parent differently or just give me your thoughts on.

On that?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's like a little bit of both.

I mean, my parents did a great job.

We had a great relationship.

And I think that this is pretty universal.

And I don't.

You know, I.

When I came out, I was already out of the house.

I mean, I think I probably had some ideas as I was younger, but it was, like, more confusing.

But it wasn't like, you know, I knew at 12, so I kind of needed that independence and autonomy to be able to make those decisions.

But I do think, and.

And this is.

Again, it doesn't really matter.

It was more like my gender expression and kind of how I landed in the world.

And this was in the 80s, so different environment.

But I don't know if my parents fully saw me for who I was.

And I feel like I am trying really hard to see my sons as who they are and not who I want them to be or who I think they should be.

Right.

I think that's like a big switch.

And I don't.

I don't, like, blame my parents for it.

I. I think they had an idea, you know, they had the movie reel, and, you know, there was, like, a pretty significant pivot there, and they got on board and did all the things.

But I think that there are some pieces as a kid, like when.

When they show you who they are, believe them and support that person.

And I think I. I'm really trying to.

To do that, but it's hard again, because, I mean, in everything from, like, you know what's right, you've been down that road, you've walked that road, and you get it.

And also, just, like, the efficiency of time and space, it's.

You're like a house that functions, and so your individuality is not working for my functioning House right now.

It is now working.

We are not finger painting at 8:30.

Like, you can be as individual as you want, but, like, I need a house that functions.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So I think it's that balance of honoring that and also trying to create a world that doesn't revolve around that.

Right.

Like I.

That give and take, especially in the way and in how a life of on demand that these kids are accustomed to and they don't know any different.

It's really challenging to create an environment where we can honor you as a.

As an individual and see you for who you are and have you have an understanding that we have four humans functioning in this household and we.

And it needs to work for all of us.

Right, Right.

And I think that's.

There's.

I like the way that you said that.

And thank you.

You got to where I was trying to go.

I was having a hard time with that question for some reason.

The whole, like, idea of generationally, we have so much more information available to us that our parents did not have, and they did the best that, you know, with the information that they had and the expectations that they had.

Right.

And now we have all this information available to us, and we are trying to.

As you.

I cannot say it any better than you just said it.

So just creating what.

What you're creating and what I've created is.

Takes a whole different way of kind of looking at parenting.

So I appreciate you sharing that very, very much.

Are many who have parents, grandparents, extended family of some kind, longtime friends, who perhaps may not be affirming, may not be allies.

What is your recommendation or what do you kind of teach others in your teaching for how to have a conversation with one who may not be affirming?

Yeah, I think the most important thing that I ever think about in those environments is a couple things.

One, you're in the same way that you would want your kid to give you grace when they explain something like this to you, how they identify whether they're questioning whatever's happening.

Like, you need a second to, like, get the new film reel in.

You know, as you said, we gotta give other people, like, a second.

Best case scenario, they're, like, on board and doing it.

Worst case scenario, they're not.

And I think there's a.

There can be a window, right?

There can be a time where people are figuring it out, where they're finding their own resources, they're questioning the things that they're.

You know, they're like, going through their process of figuring out.

I don't think there's anyone in our lives where we have to continue to force a relationship that is not good for our kid.

Right.

Like, you can write people off.

You can.

You can pause hanging out with folks.

You can set some boundaries and some parameters.

Right.

But you're gonna have, you know, Uncle Steve, who's not gonna get the pronouns right.

Right.

If Uncle Steve doesn't get the pronouns right a couple times, then to me, it.

There's no, like, number of times.

It's your gut.

Like, is Uncle Steve trying?

If Uncle Steve is trying and your kid is good with it, then okay.

But when somebody.

If there isn't a willingness and an openness, even like a sliver, then that's some.

Then that's a relationship that you can revisit later.

But I think it's.

It's giving people, again, a little bit of grace, like we talked about before, to kind of give some growing room in that.

Right.

And.

And to be the intermediary for your kid.

Because to be in the power dynamic in a family where you have an elder in some capacity, like, that's hard for the kid to be the token.

But you can have this.

This conversation with them to be like, it is the epitome of ally work because they can ask you all the questions that they're never gonna ask the kid.

Right?

Right.

Like, you can be this, like, just vast resource of knowledge for people.

So the ways in.

When you get offended, you kind of turn down a little bit.

And the ways that you're empathetic, you turn up a little bit, and you.

And you show up to be a resource for somebody that, you know, because they probably think you had the same questions, like, that's the superpower of allyship, right?

Is like, if you are not one of, but you are standing with.

So to me, like, that's an ally.

You're not part of a group, but you're standing up.

And for a group, right.

Somebody can connect with you because they are also not like them.

So the questions that you had, whether they're ignorant and not ignorant, stupid, ignorant, lack of knowledge.

Right.

Or they're simple or they're logistic.

Like, whatever they are, if you can just be there to answer those questions, it does a tremendous part for connection.

And I would always go back to, like, I didn't want people to think differently.

My parents, you know, I had moved away.

When I came out, I came back and, you know, what would their friends think with?

Their friends think that they were bad parents or whatever.

And I was like, I don't want them to think differently because of me because I'm gay.

I want them to think differently because of gay people because now they know one.

It like blurs that us them line so dramatically that you really have the ability to like.

Well, that doesn't square.

Like all of a sudden things don't quite square when there is negative language or stereotypes against your niece or your nephew.

Right.

Like it is sometimes it's easier for those folks to get on board if they have that.

That a little bit of.

Of growing room and growing grace.

I think that that's important.

And also that you don't have to maintain relationships with everybody.

Like, things change, people change.

And if you.

If that relationship is no longer serving you either because of the way that they act towards your child or the way that they act towards you, you don't have to maintain that relationship.

You can revisit it, you can come back to it, but you can draw boundaries for your own safety, mentally, emotionally, physically, and the safety of your kid.

And that's totally fine.

It is not your job to make everybody love your gay kid.

Like, that is not.

It'd be great.

Right.

But like, you can only control what you can control.

You can't control how somebody else reacts.

So at a certain point you gotta let one go or at least take a break from it.

Right.

Right.

I mean, I think that the biggest thing there is the boundaries.

Right.

And letting it marinate, being open to answer all the questions that need to be answered that people are curious about and letting people know that the space is open for that.

Like welcoming the questions.

Yeah.

And letting them marinate with the questions or the answers to those questions.

But like you said, if there is somebody who just not getting on board or is not being kind or is refusing to whatever it is.

If in your.

If in your gut, if you're just feeling like this is not the boundary is okay.

It doesn't matter who it is.

So I think there are several very important pieces of that.

So thank you so much for sharing that.

I. Yeah.

And you're like.

And I think you're right.

It's that it's your parents Spidey sense.

Like it just exists in your gut and you just trust it and you don't have to defend it.

You just trust that you know and you move forward in that way.

And I had heard this really, this dad spoke and he had a trans kid and they were in Utah and going to just speak to a state representative around a bathroom bill that Utah was trying to Pass.

And they had a lobbyist with them.

And the, you know, dad was nervous, kid was nervous, he's like, I, you know, what are we gonna say?

How, how AM I, this 14 year old gonna change this guy's mind?

And the lobbyist said, no, no, no, your job is not to change his mind.

Your job is to get them to doubt the certainty of their position just slightly.

Right?

Like if you, what you had said about curiosity made me think of that because like if you can get somebody who's so, who believe so strongly in something to be curious, you're on the right path.

That's all we're trying to do, right?

Like they're not have to agree with you, but if they're curious enough to ask questions, even if they're offensive, if they're curious enough, there's willingness and openness to have those conversations.

You are changing the certainty of their position just slightly.

And that's all we can ever ask to do.

And then the conversation continues, right?

Like you're not going to solve this in a 15 second soundbite or 15 second conversation.

But the next time they have a question a week from Tuesday, or they see something on the news, you want them to come to you and say, hey, I saw this thing, what do you think?

Like that's a conversation.

That's how we all grow, that's how we all learn more.

That's how we all have openness.

Right?

So I think you gauge your gut on those things and trust that.

Yeah.

And I like that so much.

Like knowing that that is enough.

That is enough right there.

If you can shift anyone out of judgment and fear.

Because judgment and fear is what keeps people like locked in and locked down.

The moment that you can like peel off a little of that and they're like, oh, wait, then they start seeing all these things around them, right?

And hearing things that perhaps they never heard, heard before, that is going to spark more curiosity, that's going to spark questions.

And I mean, that's, that's the thing.

That's the thing right there.

Yeah, because you're filtering.

Like if you hear it on the news, you filter, you filter, you filter for things that apply to me.

Things that apply to me.

Things that apply to me.

Then all of a sudden it's something you're like, well, that applies to my nephew.

Wait, what, Wait, hang on, I gotta, I gotta go back.

That, right, like it flags of like, does we have such an onslaught of information right now?

Does it apply to me?

And we're like filtering all the Things.

Well, me, the we expands, and all of a sudden that affects us.

Right?

In what I would consider my us.

Now, all of a sudden, it's important to me.

Oh, now I want a little bit more information.

Well, wait a second.

That's not.

That doesn't sound right.

Like, you just.

You're so.

You get so much more critical of things when it feels like it applies to you by extension.

Right, right.

Exactly.

Ooh, that's so good.

So good.

Oh, my goodness.

I think we're going to end on that really awesome, strong note.

Give.

Give everybody something to think about.

A lot of some things to think about, right?

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

Is there anything else that you would like to throw out there or share before we wrap it up today?

No.

I mean, I would just want to tell all the listeners, like, you're a good parent.

Like, if you are listening to this podcast, you are putting in the effort.

You are a good parent.

Right.

And so keep doing what you're doing.

We're all trying to get better.

And a good parent is not one that doesn't make mistakes.

It's the one that tries to learn from them.

And I would say that your audience is full of those people.

Your kids probably don't tell you.

Mine don't.

But, like, you let somebody tell you today that you are.

You're a good parent.

Thank you so much for being here.

I really appreciate it.

That was awesome, Heather.

Thanks for the great conversation.

Wow.

This conversation with Ash Beckham was such a beautiful, deeply human invitation to unlearn, to be gentle with ourselves and to embrace the messy, evolving work of allyship and parenting.

We explored how to move beyond shame and guilt, how to hold open space for our kids and ourselves to grow, and how to bring curiosity and compassion into even hardest conversations.

It's a reminder that the real power isn't in knowing everything or getting it perfect.

It's in showing up, learning, and trying again.

And that in itself is enough.

Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.

It is such a delight to bring you new episodes every Tuesday and Friday.

If you want more information and tools like you heard today, go to morehumanmorekind.com and until next time, remember, you are not alone.