Cory

===

[00:00:00]

[00:00:45] Arlene: welcome to another episode of the Barnyard Language podcast. We are excited that you're here with us again today, and we're, Katie and I are gonna try and keep this pretty short on the intro because we did get pretty chatty with our guests for this week who are very excited to talk about. So, [00:01:00] Katie, short version, what's happening on the farm?

Nothing. Nothing. Just a ton of laundry I hear.

[00:01:07] Caite: So, Arlene? Yes. I had a. To put it nicely, a doom mountain, a fairly neatly stacked laundry. You know, do mountain. I like that in, in baskets as opposed to a doom pile. A doom pile is like one slightly overflowing basket of laundry. I think a Doom Mountain is more like, well, a mountain.

[00:01:27] Arlene: Yeah, I get you. Yeah. Unscalable maybe.

[00:01:30] Caite: Yeah, it's, it's been a while since my kids have played their favorite game, but for a long time, their favorite game was to make. Pond or a lake out of laundry or bedding or anything else they found and then jump into it. And unbeknownst to me, they did this a few days ago with my laundry mountain, which was in the corner of our bedroom, and then was just, well, a a landslide right across [00:02:00] our bedroom.

A not like a. Yes, a do a doom swamp of laundry, at which point I stopped being able to ignore it at all. And being a, a pet owning household, of course, if you do not put the laundry in a dresser, within 30 seconds of it coming out of the dryer is carving cat hair again.

[00:02:21] Arlene: Yep. And so

[00:02:23] Caite: same, same. It was easier to just wash everything than to try and figure out what was actually clean and what wasn't.

And at the same time, I'm like getting rid of a bunch of clothing and checking sizes on the kids' clothes and. Whatever

[00:02:37] Arlene: I need to put my summer stuff away, but haven't done it yet, so then everything is kind of overflowing because I haven't, I've had to pull out some of the winter fall things but haven't really put the summer stuff away, so there's, there's no chance that everything can actually fit anywhere.

It's just Yeah, it's everywhere.

[00:02:55] Caite: No, Well, and I'm realizing I've had to buy some new clothes for [00:03:00] myself. The, I didn't wanna just say shape of my body, the, And then I was gonna say consistency of my body, but that kind of sounds big. Maybe I melted, which, I mean, maybe I have, I don't know. I've had to buy some new clothes and I'm taking this opportunity to realize that I now have like eight pairs of jeans and no shirts and.

This sort of thing. So I'm realizing where there are some gaps and for some reason I probably own upwards of 40 pairs of socks, which I am realizing now that I've gotten through most of the Doom Swamp and have started putting things away. And I don't wanna get rid of any of ' em cuz they're nice socks.

But also it seems really ridiculous to have so, Well of

[00:03:38] Arlene: all, It's not like they're going back. Items of clothing. Yeah, all of the items of clothing, those are the smallest one to keep. So I give you permission. You can, you can keep the

[00:03:44] Caite: socks. Well, thank you. Thank you. Guys are getting ready to pick corn.

We we grind your corn for our feed, so they will fill whatever space we have in the grain bins and then everything else gets combined, sold. And I don't think that's about it. Combines are going hot [00:04:00] and heavy in our neighborhoods, so there's a lot of dust, and my house has been completely taken over by those fake Asian ladybug things.

I, I've vacuumed up probably thousands of bugs in the last two days, like literally thousands Wow. Of insects. It's revolting. Darlene, what's happening at your

[00:04:20] Arlene: place? I we're kind of in that whole pattern where, I guess I already mentioned our harvest in terms of silage, corn, silage and soybeans is already done and corn is not happening for a while yet.

So on the harvest front, things are pretty quiet, You know, just milk and cows and doing the, the regular old stuff. Last weekend, my husband and I actually went away without children for a couple of days, so that felt pretty awesome. We went to a Scandinavian spa. So in theory, what you're supposed to do at this place is you do like a hot treatment.

So that's either like steam room or sauna, then plunge in [00:05:00] cold. And so they have like waterfalls and pools. And then you go and relax somewhere for a little while and then do that cycle again a few times, and then at the end of some of those cycles, then you eventually go to the hot tub. So we don't necessarily find the plunging and cold water part, all that relaxing.

I know it's supposed to be good for your pores or something. Digestion or circulation, who knows? So we kind of skip the plunging. But the sauna and the hot tub and the relaxing, we're all in on all those things plus That has fantastic food and it's in Quebec, so a little bit further away from here.

So very cool menu options. And despite all the warning signs around the place saying you're not supposed to consume alcohol and participate in the activities, there's a lot of wine and beverage options too. So, It's a very relaxing way to spend a day. So yeah, that was one of the things we did while we were away.

Did lots of eating. It's a lot more duck on the menu in Quebec than we would see typically in Ontario. So had a few different duck [00:06:00] based meals, which is nice for a change. And yeah, that was our last weekend, so that was pretty fun. Kid wise, everybody's pretty good. Had a few sick kids home this week, so that changed my plans a little bit, but I didn't have a ton going on.

It wasn't a big disruption into our, our routine, I guess. Katie and I actually fit in three interviews in one week last week, so that was very exciting and we have a ton of fun guests coming up. So that leads me into this one. We're trying to keep our intro short. Today we are talking to someone about sex.

So that's not the easiest conversation sometimes to have and can be uncomfortable, and you might sense that Katie and I are a little uncomfortable or awkward maybe at times during this conversation. But our guests made it really easy on us and they are a super person. So we're really excited for you to hear this interview.

Today we are very excited to be talking [00:07:00] to Cory Silverberg, who is the author of some of our favorite kids' books and a sex educator. So Corey, we start each of our interviews with the same question and this is the way to introduce yourself to our listeners and we ask, what are you growing?

So for our farming guests, that covers crops and livestock, but it can also cover families and businesses, social change, whatever you want to include. So Corey, welcome and what are you growing?

[00:07:22] Cory: Thanks for having me. But I probably have to start with a kid just because I have an eight year old. So I'm still somewhat responsible. In fact, I'm quite responsible for making sure they eat and literally grow. And then although, although it's funny cuz at this point I already feel more like, well I'm more responsible for their kind of like emotional intellectual growth, I guess.

So in terms of the things I like the best and most proud of that would, I'd probably start with that. So the other answer is like, I'm trying to grow the world that I want which is also partly the world that we live in.

But because I do that in the form of like sitting alone and writing and sitting at a computer and emailing people and saying, Would you [00:08:00] write a book? Reviewing my book? It doesn't actually feel like such a it doesn't feel like a world growing project, right?

Like it's, it's not, it feels very isolating, right? So, sometimes what's lovely is, and it happens a lot and it's great, I will get emails and anything that sort of suggests that like their books are useful or helpful because unlike because of the way you asked the question you know, I'm thinking about actually growing things in the ground where you get to see them grow. Or not , right? That you're in some of this sort of, it feels more like a relationship.

And weirdly writing books, even though I like, I sort of think about all my work as being about in a relationship building, the big thing that I do is not, it doesn't feel like that so much cuz it's like I do a thing and then some people react to it and then I do a different thing. But anyway,

the goal is that I'm trying to kind of create this world the world that I want while living in the world that we have. That's my answer.

[00:08:50] Arlene: Yeah, that feels, feels big and important. , I hadn't thought of it that way, but I I love your words for that.

[00:08:59] Caite: So Corey, we [00:09:00] thought we'd start by asking a little bit about your books and your book Food that's kind of aimed at the youngest kids is what makes a baby or what makes a baby. And it's a real favorite in our house. And so I, I asked the girl child what questions she had for you, cuz you're one of her very favorite authors.

I thought maybe she'll really come up with something. And she goes, What's their middle name? So that was, that was her one question, if you're

[00:09:26] Arlene: That that's the hard, the hard hitting stuff right there.

[00:09:28] Cory: right?

[00:09:29] Caite: real big on names right now,

[00:09:30] Cory: It is a great question. I also asked my kid for some input about, which we'll get to later. And it is great, the things I say. My middle name's Lee , so I can share that with her and you.

[00:09:41] Caite: My favorite thing about what makes a baby is how accessible it is for all the ways that families are formed. Because so many books about how babies are made are very much, there's a mommy and a daddy and they love each other very much, and they get married and they have a [00:10:00] stable home and they have jobs and health insurance, and then they make a baby. And all of those things are great, but it's not how a lot of, probably most families are formed. And so I love that your book is very much scientific in that you have to have sperm, you have to have eggs, you have to have a uterus. Those are pretty undeniable

[00:10:27] Cory: For now, Yeah.

[00:10:27] Caite: yeah, in our, our scientific present, those are all necessary things. So I love that you leave so much space for the social structure of the family to fill in around that, whether it's fertility or same sex couples or trans parents or adoption or

[00:10:49] Cory: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:50] Caite: else, that you allow families to fill that in themselves. Because also it gives us, as parents, so much room to talk about our experience.

And also, I [00:11:00] have to say that I love that you show C-section babies

[00:11:03] Cory: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

[00:11:05] Caite: something that is also very frequently left out and it's a very common experience for parents. So it's strange to me that they don't mention it. So I'm wondering what the story is behind how you came up with this book and who you envision it being for.

[00:11:22] Cory: Yeah. I'm glad that you noticed all that and it's absolutely, like the book is a very stripped down story not because I think kids can't handle complexity, it's because of exactly what you said, right? So, cuz another thing that isn't mentioned in any of the books that I read was miscarriages, which are also incredibly common.

And the thing with the c-section, it's, I mean, so many people I know who had c-sections. When I'm talking to parents will say, Look, I never know how to explain that scar to my kid. Which is such a, you know which is sort of about a lot of things the way that we shame people, both their bodies and, you know, by view of body perfection.

But it's so strange because of course it's like, it's a great story to tell . I mean, it might [00:12:00] not have been a great story. It's this complicated thing. The, the moment and the healing afterwards may have been awful, but it's connected to this, the reason, the way that this kid is actually on the planet.

So to answer the first part of your question, I wrote it specifically for a trans family. I wrote it for some friends of mine, the dad is trans, so his body doesn't have any sperm.

So they used a sperm donor and the mom carried the baby. And so they had a kid who was four at the time who I was close to them, I was close to this kid. And then they were having another baby, his mom was pregnant.

And I was like eager, like waiting for this four year old to start asking questions because she was now visibly pregnant and he wasn't asking questions cuz he was also, he was like one of these kids and there's lots of kids like this who he's not, that wasn't that interested in bodies. But then he finally did and, and very quickly I got, got a, you know, note from the dad to point out that there were just no books. So I wrote a story for this one child, which is really the only way I probably could have ever gotten into writing books, because I find writing hard.

I feel the responsibility of like, trying to get it right. [00:13:00] And I'm putting that in quotes because of course that's never really possible. And if I had set out to write, like, I'm gonna try to write a book that works for like, lots of different kinds of families, I never would've done it cuz I would've just been like, No, it's, this isn't gonna work and this isn't work.

But actually I was writing for one family who happened to need a lot of space because, because of, well in this case it was because of a sperm donor. And, but then what happened? So I wrote it for him and he was like, not that impressed with it.

[00:13:26] Arlene: The child or the father,

[00:13:28] Cory: child. No, no.

The father was very grateful. Both, both parents were super grateful. The child who was four at the time was much more honest and was like, It's okay. I mean, the thing I love is what he did. In the family, they spoke both English and Spanish. So what happened was, I wrote this thing and it was just in a binder, it looked like a zine.

And I took it over and the first thing he said is, he said, I thought you were bringing me a book, right? Because it was in a binder and like books are. And so, and then I started reading it and he wasn't not interested. So then his mom started reading it to him in Spanish. So she started translating, which, which [00:14:00] then made it easier for me cause I didn't have to hear my words that were all clunky.

And he sat for like a few minutes and then he got up and he left the room and then he came back with paper and a stapler. And I remember this because I remember, I remember saying, Are you allowed to use the stapler on your own? Cuz and he was, and he stapled some paper together and I said, What are you doing?

And he said, I'm gonna make my own book about bodies. Which I thought was great. Like that's to me, if you write a book for kids and the only thing it does is it makes them wanna write their own book. Cause they think you got it wrong then that, then you wrote a very, very good book for kids.

So, I did that. I read it with this one family, but then I started reading with other families. So I started reading with families who had adopted and with like I know some single parents by choice and other families including like heterosexual families where there was either a sperm or an egg donor or a surrogate used.

And, and so it became clear that actually there's all these families that are missing, that aren't, that don't have the books. That, and what they were all doing was buying the book that's available and then reading it and then having to say like except that's not us, [00:15:00] You know? So it's like, except we did it differently.

And that's the part that I just don't like you know, this was before I had kids of my own, but I had lots of kids in my life and I just feel like kids should get to hear stories without all these exceptions. Right? With all because, because suddenly the message is this book is the expertise. We are the weird ones, Right?

And as you said it, it's actually lie. Right? It's a lie. The story that a man, a woman, Love each other, choose to have a baby, immediately have one and everything's great. Like, whose life is that? Right. I mean, there's like all this stuff in our lives and it's weird when the books just don't look like life.

Including everything from like, the messiness. It's like, the houses are always neat. No one goes to the bathroom. And, and because I grew up in the seventies, like there wasn't a lot of like media literacy. Right. So I, no one was pointing out to be like, Now I think, you know, we all, That's fine. We don't all find our lives Exactly.

Reflected in books. It'd be nice if we did, but also now we're pointing this out to kids we're saying like, you know, we we're encouraging them to think about like, how is this, how [00:16:00] is our family different? And why do you think that our family isn't in that book, for example.

[00:16:05] Caite: One of the things I noticed right away too is that in your book, the, the sperm and the egg come together and. Share and share stories and combine where, you know, growing up in the eighties, sex ed was very much, the winnings sperm invades and wins and gets the prize and makes a baby. And it was very like, Wow, okay.

You know, So I really liked that. It's a, a mutual act and I also really enjoy that so many of the people in the pictures don't have sperm or eggs because, you know, for a lot of people that's,

[00:16:43] Cory: that's the case, right there is

[00:16:44] Caite: of fertility is so great to see that people might not have either or, you know, And my kid loves to count who has what.

[00:16:51] Cory: And so, in the first draft bodies either had sperm or eggs, and it was a friend of mine who's a doctor who was like, You should make one without either. And at first, see I was [00:17:00] thinking very literally, and I was like, Well, but don't, most bodies like, they would have one or the other. And she very quickly said, Well, I think it can just, it represents viability, right? You know, when they're born, lots of bodies don't have sperm at all. But even though most bodies that will have eggs are born with eggs, doesn't mean any of them are viable.

Doesn't mean that they're gonna work. I was still in this mentality of like I have to represent what's true for most people. And she helped me be like, No, you can actually just represent more stories, if that's the sort of thing. It's not like, don't prioritize this one story because it's the most common. In my work as an educator, I still think it's useful.

And also, I, I wanna share something about like attempts to like take gender or sex assigned at birth out of, out of it, right? So part of the way the book works is we don't say boys have sperm and girls have eggs. We say bodies have sperm and somebody to eggs, right? And there's gender in the book.

Like there's definitely kids that look like boys and girls. And so it's not. My work is not about a era gender. But don't do that cuz you don't need to do that. Cuz the truth is that there [00:18:00] are some girls that don't have eggs and have sperm. There's some boys that have, don't have sperm and have eggs.

And, and as we just said, there's some boys and girls and men and women who don't have either. But what I think is really interesting is kids still will often, they'll, they'll immediately look at the bodies with sperm and they'll say, So that's a boy and that's a boy. So they do their thing, they show you what they're learning, which I think is fine.

I don't, I don't correct them. But they often, a lot of kids don't notice that there's a body without either. And so it's a really good opportunity to, to say to kid, Oh, do you notice this one doesn't have either? What do you think that means? And so it's this thing, I mean, cuz part of this, this project of building a better world, like the world that I want, is a world where when we're dealing with infertility, the complexity and how that can be difficult to deal with isn't compounded by a lifetime of shame building around what it means to be a woman. Right? So, I mean, this is just to stick with the eggs and to talk about women who are socialized in a certain way. To be told that to be a real full woman, you gotta have a baby, right?

And [00:19:00] that, and that your body, you know, that your body is made to make babies. It's just such a messed up thing to say because it's not true. Like who, I mean because arbitrarily we decide that, that, you know, on individual level, in, in, on a population level, we do need to reproduce on an individual level.

This idea that our body is made to make a baby. Our body's made for a lot of things. So it's because I have so many friends who waited later to have babies, and then of course had a lot of problems and, and, you know, and many didn't get to make babies themselves. And, and I, it was very clear to me that of course that's gonna be hard no matter what.

But the fact that, that they grew up being told this is what your body's gonna do. So it's just this tiny planting of a seed for kids that like, yeah, bodies don't always work the way you want them to.

[00:19:48] Caite: Well, I know for myself, you know, being of a a certain age and going through fertility treatments, the entirety of my sex ed is a child, and as a young person was. [00:20:00] Don't have sex, you will get pregnant. If you look at a boy, you will get pregnant.

[00:20:05] Cory: Right, Right,

[00:20:06] Caite: then I couldn't get pregnant. And I was like, Well, I mean, I feel like I'm pretty well educated and I had no idea about how complex fertility is because all we had learned was don't look at boys, you'll get knocked up.

[00:20:20] Cory: yeah, doing that, and it is really important and it's, I don't think that's changed that much. I mean, maybe we use different language, but, but it hasn't changed that much. There's still so much emphasis on quote, preventing teen pregnancy that we don't and people would be scared to say, like, you would get a lot of pushback if you ever told in a book that it's, for a lot of people, it's not that easy to get pregnant.

It takes a lot of times . Right? I mean, it's the same with st right? You also, you have this idea like, if you ever have unprotected sex, you will get some kind of infection and No, you, no, you won't. I mean, you might, and so there's a reason to protect yourself, but yeah, Yeah, we're all lied to about all this stuff.[00:21:00]

[00:21:01] Arlene: I guess a lot of that, that nuanced, you know, the, the things that we grow, that we learn and accept as we get older. When you're teaching a 13 and 14 year old, you're like, Okay, what's important right now? You know, I don't want them to get sick or, you know, and, and they don't have necessarily that nuance.

Although, I mean, my next question is about your other two books and there's, there's room for, for tons of more information than we ever got when we were young. But yeah, there's that line between not getting the message lost and wanting to protect them from certain things. And then also like, but there's also all this other stuff out here.

And sometimes our, our sex ed is, you know, stuck into a few weeks or a few days of the curriculum. Right. And that's the only time , the only time we talk about it, where it should be those conversations that are happening all the time and not like that two week period where you sent the letter ahead to the, the parents and we're like, talking about [00:22:00] sex this week.

You want your kids in out.

[00:22:02] Cory: Can I ask a question though?

[00:22:03] Arlene: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:22:04] Cory: on like ignorance around what around, I never grew up in a farming family or on a farm, so this is stereotype, but my st the stereotype is that if you're raising kids around, Farming, and I'm thinking both. I'm imagining both sort of like, I, I dunno how to distinguish animals and vegetables.

I'll just put it that way, that kids learn the truth about certain things, right? So whether that's animals dying animals being slaughtered a crop that doesn't grow and what that means in terms of finances and what we're gonna have this year and not have this year. My, my assumption is that there's moments where kids are being, where kids are growing up and they're learning stuff about the world that they're not learning in school, Right?

In school. It's a more sanitized version. Is that, do you think that, is that true or is that just sort of a, like a fantasy sort of romantic isation,

[00:22:51] Arlene: I think that, I mean, I think that's pretty accurate. I mean, you know, most kids aren't gonna see. Birth at a young [00:23:00] age, right? Where, you know, we're, we're on a farm and we're on a dairy farm. So there's, you know, cows are calving all year round. So I mean, from a pretty young age they've seen that birth is messy and bloody and, you know, looks painful and sometimes the cows need help or sometimes they might need an operation.

Those type of things. I mean, there's, there's discussions around you know, we don't have a bowl on site, so I mean, we talk to our kids about, you know, semen is sometimes a dinner table conversation or breeding, you know, when my kids are little, like one of their first jobs was if they went out to the barn with my husband, they like hold a lube.

Well he goes to breed the cows . So there's, there's discussions of what, how, how those babies are born in an artificial sense. So yeah, I mean I think that those conversations happen a lot. I think where as farm parents, we need to look for opportunities and that's one of the reasons we wanna talk to you is look for opportunities to expand that and, [00:24:00] and, and look for the similarities and also look for the opportunities to talk about, you know, how is this different in our lives and what's the, you know, what's the difference between what we're seeing in the animal or plant world?

And okay, so these things are the same, but when you're talking about human relationships, you know, things

[00:24:17] Cory: And did your kids, when they were younger, did they start asking questions about the connections? Like, so they would know, they would, they would get to see a calf be born. Would they ever did, did that prompt questions about how babies are born or No? Is it sort of like,

[00:24:31] Arlene: Yeah, sometimes and other times, yeah, it seems like a completely separate thing. I suppose around the time that we were, you know, our older kids when we're, you know, maybe when I was pregnant with the younger ones, then those things are coming out more often. But they do get into that kind of like, you know, one track mind where it's like, okay, specifically this cow , you know, what happened with with her?

Or, or you're just looking at the placenta and you get distracted.

[00:24:55] Cory: right. Oh, that's

[00:24:57] Caite: I think the other sort. [00:25:00] Unspoken issue I have with, with this is that when livestock careers supposed to get pregnant, don't, or bulls that are supposed to be able to make babies, don't we eat them? Which is not a great lesson about you know, infertility or choosing not to have children. Like,

[00:25:21] Cory: right?

[00:25:21] Caite: only value is reproductive or we will eat you.

[00:25:25] Cory: Yeah. Yay. Yay.

[00:25:25] Caite: Yeah. So it's, and yeah, we don't talk about consent or appropriate relation. I mean, they're cows, you know, But Yeah,

[00:25:38] Cory: , But do any of your, kids ever raise that? Like, do kids ever say like, Hold on a second. Or is it because they've been, they've grown up in this context of their cows, they're part of that they wouldn't like, I guess I just wanna do kids, do kids ever, and they wouldn't use the word consent, but sort of raise this, like, are they, are they okay with this?

Or do they like this? Or do we ever, or, or have either of you had an experience? Yeah, I guess the [00:26:00] question is, I have you had an experience of one of your kids saying, Why do we do it this way?

[00:26:05] Caite: I guess it's diff, Sorry, Arlene, it's different for us because we. Live service. We have a bowl and we keep rams for our sheep. So animals come into heat and it's, it's not a romantic process by any stretch, but they don't,

[00:26:21] Cory: Right.

[00:26:22] Caite: you know, they're standing for it. And we talk about, Oh, she's standing, you know, because she's in heat, she will stand to be bred.

[00:26:30] Cory: Okay. Right.

[00:26:32] Caite: I know a fair number of adults who have some real consent issues with ai which

[00:26:38] Cory: ar, artificial. Okay. Okay.

[00:26:40] Arlene: Yeah. So, yeah,

[00:26:41] Caite: whole separate. I'm gonna let Arlene sort that one out cuz

[00:26:44] Arlene: So I think it's similar though. I mean because yeah, animals show heats or recycle them into heat so that they are receptive and they have physical, they physically demonstrate the fact that they are at that point in their cycle and you [00:27:00] look, look for those signs that they are, you know, they're in a place where they, you should be breeding them.

Right. So I guess that's another way that we could, and probably should talk to our kids about the differences in animals and humans, Right? That there is, or in a way, I suppose you have to look for indications that the other person is interested would be another

[00:27:23] Cory: Yeah. I mean, it get,

[00:27:25] Arlene: some things, some things don't translate so easily, but

[00:27:28] Cory: going to, that's gonna translate because of course the goal. Yes.

[00:27:32] Arlene: Yeah

[00:27:32] Cory: But what does come to mind, of course, is that the thing that young people share around the world is their lack of access to rights and body autonomy, right? So a big part of sex education is teaching about body autonomy, right?

Because what we want is kids who are aware when their boundaries are being crossed and who will speak up or speak to someone if they are and know that they are worthy and not deserving of violence and harm and being controlled. So a young child so body autonomy, [00:28:00] meaning you get to make the rules about your body, about how your body's touched, about how your body's talked about et cetera. And then to say like, when you're younger, there's all sorts of examples of your body autonomy being ignored, right? So you don't have a choice if you're going to school or where you go to school, you might not have a choice of what to wear.

You know, this thing that we say, nobody should ever touch you without your permission and no one should ever harm you or hit you. Or whatever the language we would use is, you know, if our kid is gonna, you know, run into traffic, we are gonna do what we need to do, get this, prevent them from doing that, so I do, what would look like to connect, and maybe this doesn't serve I should just out myself now. I am a vegetarian I'm also not a vegetarian that's particularly sort of largely politicized. Having said that I think because I am, I'm probably more open to thinking about letting my kid connect themselves to an animal who's not being given the choice to consent. I can guarantee that all of our kids ha are aware of the experience of being, of, of not having choice.

Right. And even, you know, I'm a very [00:29:00] over-involved parent who really centers body autonomy. And still, my kid is like, You never let me decide anything despite the fact that I'm always looking for opportunities for them to have some say.

And I think that, that my kid feels that way, and all of our kids feel that way because it is overwhelming the, the lack of choice they have. You know, and then we teach them as they get older, that changes. So I do wonder, like, what do you, like, do you think, what would that, would it make it, you know, I don't know.

I, I don't know if it would make any sense to talk about, like, they don't have choices in the way. No, I don't think it would. I'm just, sorry, this is kind of just trying to think about this, but I don't, What, what do you guys think about that?

[00:29:36] Caite: I think for us, certainly, and I mean live, live coverage is different than

[00:29:41] Cory: Sorry. Can you just tell me what that means? What live coverage is the terminologies,

[00:29:46] Caite: it the old fashioned way.

[00:29:47] Cory: Oh,

[00:29:48] Arlene: Like,

[00:29:48] Caite: know, we . Yeah.

[00:29:50] Arlene: ha, having, Yeah.

[00:29:52] Cory: is it called

[00:29:52] Caite: live service. Cuz he's covering her. I mean he's,

[00:29:56] Cory: Yeah, no, I got it.

[00:29:57] Caite: I try not to get too [00:30:00] woo

[00:30:00] Cory: No, no, I got that. I got that. But that's okay. Sorry. I'm just, I appreciate, I appreciate learning things, so this is okay.

[00:30:06] Caite: when the cow is not fully in what we call standing heat, she literally will not stand still for it.

She will kick him and bail out.

[00:30:16] Cory: Okay.

[00:30:17] Caite: which I think is actually a pretty good example of consent because she is not down, you know,

[00:30:25] Cory: yeah. Well, and, and so yeah, so that's actually, so that's a, that's a totally great moment because of course, and you'd always say like, in humans it's different, but part of what we wanna teach kids, the, you know, the thing about consent that we don't always teach is we say consent is permission. So make sure they say yes.

Right? But it's also about us, right ma? It's like, so teaching ourselves like what is Yes, no, or maybe feel like in our body, because the weird thing about teaching consent with very, like, with even. Like tweens is the consent suge. Like, when we talk about consent, we're talking about like agreeing to do a thing, [00:31:00] but how do you agree and, and like, and sort of you know, informed consent.

Like, you know what you're agreeing to, but how do you agree to kiss someone? If you've never kissed someone, how can you, you cannot know if you're gonna like it. You might not like that particular person. It might turn out that you don't want to kiss that kind of person. So it's this weird thing where we teach you about consent, Like you gotta make sure you know what you want.

But before we've done any of this kind of exploration, the answer for me is like, we check in, was it feel like on the inside? So that's actually such a, what you're saying is such a great, because you could talk about like, this cow is showing us something with their body, right? So what does it look like?

Do you know, You know, the question for kids, for slightly older kids is, do you know what it looks like if you, if you have a crush on someone, what they look like when they're uncomfortable or awkward or uncertain or, or scared? What does their body look like? Cause we don't, The other thing that we do education wise that isn't great is we talk about like a feelings of, as if they all show up the same way on our bodies, right?

So as if we all will show that we're afraid [00:32:00] or, you know, this idea that like, well if someone's smiling, then they're happy and they're going along with it. No, we're all by probably six years old. We're very good at faking it. So that's very interesting, this, this, that, that would be a moment where you could be like, you know, and then, and then you could say, So what does it look like on humans?

Yeah.

[00:32:17] Arlene: Yeah.

[00:32:18] Cory: Sorry. That was, that was,

[00:32:19] Arlene: No, that's all right. We're

[00:32:20] Cory: like learning new things.

[00:32:21] Arlene: I know, I feel like we're going in, we're gonna end up in lots of different directions today, so I'm gonna go Yeah, go. No, go ahead. Absolutely.

[00:32:28] Cory: Well, so because, cause you mentioned that like there's this so okay, there's live live coverage and then ai.

[00:32:34] Arlene: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:35] Cory: So what is what is, and you said people have issues with ai. Can I ask what that, like why,

[00:32:41] Caite: if I can clarify, there are non livestock people who have issues about whether a cow can consent to ai, but

[00:32:50] Cory: Oh,

[00:32:50] Caite: least

[00:32:51] Cory: Yes, sure.

[00:32:52] Caite: We, you know, we AIed our cattle for a number of years as well, and when a cow is in standing heat, she will stand to be AIed as [00:33:00] well. I mean, it's

[00:33:03] Arlene: It's one of those it's one of those things that mostly vegans bring up as a, as one of the issues, and they, it gets politicized.

[00:33:12] Cory: Can I ask, this is, I know this is, this is now gonna be boring for your listeners, but now I'm just so fascinated cause you invited me. So, is there a difference, like, like why AI versus live coverage? I guess is AI is like, like less expensive or like, like you have a more control over that, I guess,

[00:33:26] Arlene: Yeah, so it's, for us, it's more of a, both a safety and breeding issue. So we used to have a bowl for cows that didn't get in calf through artificial insemination. But then we had an incident several years ago where my husband was really badly hurt by a bowl that turned on them. And so since then, we've never had one on site.

But mostly for artificial insemination, it's so you can make quality breeding decisions. So you are looking at, there are catalogs of semen and you're picking the qualities that you want. Like in your book, you're looking for the story that you wanna [00:34:00] perpetuate in the offspring. So if you have a cow maybe that has, you know, not the best feet, then you're going to try and pick a bowl that's going to create offspring that, you know, takes the, the qualities that you like in your, your dam.

And, and also improve the offspring by picking genetics that are going to create better quality.

[00:34:21] Cory: Oh my God. Yeah. So much of this is not gonna work in humans.

[00:34:24] Arlene: Yes,

[00:34:25] Cory: people have tried it in humans, but it's not something we

[00:34:27] Arlene: Yeah. No, no. Eugenics is not, not okay for humans, but okay

[00:34:31] Cory: is it But so it's so interesting because, you know, there is that old stereotype of like, well, kids who grew up on a farm, they're like so much more.

They know so much more, but like so much of. I mean, I mean I guess it is good. See, that's funny. See I even, I'm doing it where like, actually the answer is more education's never a bad thing as long as kids are given the opportunity to understand things in context. But it's just funny cause now I'm having this feeling, you know, people, people who don't like my books say like, these books are confusing kids.

And now I'm like, oh my god, raising kids that a [00:35:00] farm is confusing cause

[00:35:01] Arlene: Yeah.

[00:35:02] Cory: It's all confusing. But that's the thing, it's all confusing actually. And the people who complain are the ones who they just don't want us to talk about anything.

[00:35:08] Arlene: Yeah. And you can't, you can't oversimplify any of it. Right. It, it's when people are wanting to have, for there to be only one answer that the oversimplification is actually, you know, you're, you're closing your eyes to the reality . So, so that doesn't, that doesn't work either. So that's gonna bring me to your, your two books for older kids.

Sex is a funny word. What would you say would be your kind of target range for, for that book?

[00:35:35] Cory: So yeah, so Section seven nine is the second book and it's kind of seven to nine year olds. And so this book actually doesn't talk about reproduction at all. And it was a kind of response, we wrote it cuz there was really no book like this. It really went, all the sex ed books went from like, how do you make a baby to puberty?

And kids as young as three and four have questions about how babies are made. They start noticing. And and a lot of kids don't sort of start puberty until 9, 10, 11, somewhere around [00:36:00] there. Some are younger. And I was just like, there's all these years where kids are growing so much and they have questions, right?

And their questions are like more, but, but they're not so much about reproduction, they're more about friendships and relationships and gender and, and bodies and safety and boundaries and consent and stuff like that. So, so, so the second book is sort of, Yeah, it's like, so it's, it is sort of kids before puberty.

And I, I found that like, my experience with it now, cause it's been around for five or six years, is kids will let you know right away. Kids either find it boring or fascinating and if they find it boring some, a lot of times it's because they're not ready for it yet.

So, the way the books work is there's usually a comic and there's a little bit of sort of information, sex education kind of information. Like this is what consent means. And then there's questions. And the questions are really the most important part. And the questions are really designed for conversation between parents or caregivers and a child. It's for, kids who are not yet at puberty, but are past [00:37:00] being kind of toddlers,

[00:37:03] Caite: I have a question here cuz I need to know which book is next. Which of your books, if any, covers how the sperm gets to the egg in a heterosexual sex act? Because right now my daughter thinks that the two people lay head to head, which has shown in

[00:37:19] Cory: Yes. Oh my God.

[00:37:20] Caite: and.

[00:37:21] Cory: This was the

[00:37:22] Caite: They swap and then they swap back, and then one of 'em is pregnant

[00:37:26] Cory: Right. So we should, we should explain that in the first book, which is for very young kids. So so in the first book, we don't use the term intercourse, and we don't explain all the ways sperm can get together because most four year olds wouldn't sit through that.

It's boring. So instead there's this illustration of these two bodies, and there's like sperm and egg, like all around them. Because it's a, because it's a kind of fantastical illustration. It's not a medical diagram. And absolutely there were people who were like, Is this gonna be confusing to kids?

And, so, my response is, well, if a kid has asks and they're reading with an adult, the Abbott will say no, that the sperm doesn't float around you outside your body. I'm [00:38:00] realizing that complicated ways that its statement is anyway. Eggs don't do that either, so, So the answer to your question now is the third book.

So you know, Sex, which is the book that's for puberty age kids, there's a big reproduction section and, and there's an illustration. There's, there's cartoon illustrations of intercourse of IVF of ii in vitreous fertilization and uterine insemination ii. So yeah, there's very detailed illustrations.

The way we do it is that we don't, what there isn't, like from the books that I grew up with, you'd sometimes see like a couple in bed and you'd see their full naked bodies. We don't do that. I don't do it for two reasons. One is that, I mean, this is a bit weird because I did, you know, I grew up. With a parent who was a sex therapist, I was surrounded by a lot of sexual material.

Like there were, there was like the joy of sex and there were, you know, and I think it's fine. I think it's good for kids to see some things and to have some feelings, right? You get, [00:39:00] see this sort of titillating. I don't think that's harmful. Particularly illustrations. I feel differently about videos and photographs.

I think that that can, that can be, that can trigger other stuff. I, in my experience working with kids and talking to 'em about how they feel about things, illustrations and drawings are just different. They don't really evoke the same kind of response anyway. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but also I don't really wanna do it.

So our books are very clearly, particularly, this is the last puberty age one where we see, you know, we see kids making out like, you know, hugging and kissing sort of thing. But the, we were pretty, pretty careful. Like, we don't want this to be titillating, which absolutely will be disappointing for some teenagers.

But anyway, that's our choice. So we just see the, so we see body parts. So you see with the intercourse thing, you do see, like, you see, it's sort of like an internal as if you have an x-ray. So we're seeing a penis inside of vagina. So yeah, that's the book that, that explains that. And I'll say that you could use that illustration like your kid who, how old is your child?

The [00:40:00] one who thinks maybe the heads go head to head.

[00:40:03] Caite: and five. And what I'm hearing you say is to send him out to the barnyard with daddy when the cows are in heat and let him explain it.

[00:40:09] Cory: As long as you're both doing it. The only thing I'm against in that, sense, is that sometimes some parents wanna abdicate full responsibility. So like, No, no. You go to, your other parent.

You, yes, they could see that, but also you could actually you could show them the drawings. Right. So, so I, Cause I, because you know, having done this work for a long time, again, I don't find young people get disturbed by these cartoon line drawings. Especially since it's sort of, it's, they're just body parts.

So you could just say that this is how it works, this is how some people do it. And right next to it is an illustration of actually a syringe and a tube that is inserted past the cervix. So, so you can also say, and this is how other people do it yeah.

[00:40:45] Caite: was astounded. I have to say, as a parent of two young children who did fertility treatments myself, who raises livestock for a living, how hard I found it to say sperm and egg, the first, I don't know, 15 times we read that [00:41:00] book

my kid doesn't care.

She's not shocked at all because she doesn't know that she should be, which is my goal, that she's not like, Ooh, bodies,

[00:41:09] Cory: right. But it's hard for us to remember that cause we are so in it. And so of course it's, it feels weird for you to you because you just haven't done it. Right. Like not the best part of my job, but a, a gift of my job is that I'm so comfortable talking about all these things just because I do it all the time.

Not because I'm somehow more together or advanced than anyone. I have the same issues and problems and the same challenges with parenting, but the language stuff. But yes, what you're saying is so true and we, and we have to remember this, the, this is other piece about people who are like, this is gonna harm our kids or confused with our kids.

Our kids, particularly younger kids, they haven't gone through adult sexual socialization yet. Right. They haven't been exposed to, they've been exposed to some sexism and misogyny cuz they probably watch media, but not as much as we have. They haven't, they haven't. If they're still quite young, they haven't had that experience, hopefully of being sexualized by other people in inappropriate ways, [00:42:00] which is something that happens to many of us if we, if we make it to adulthood.

So as you're saying, like they just don't, their response to things they don't know. They don't know that they're supposed to be embarrassed which is so great and it's a great time to like to do some of this education. But it's hard for us to remember because we we're already there. Right.

We're all already adults and you can't, you can't just get rid of it overnight. Like, that's the, I mean, I guess the other thing I would say is like, there are a lot of parents who are like, I wanna do this better and I don't know how. And it's like, well, it just takes time. Right? It's not, there's no, there isn't like a book you can read or like a, you know a pill you can take that's gonna make you kind of like just comfortable and okay with all this stuff.

Because, because we aren't in the world. Right. The other things, like, none of us got the sex education we needed, so of course we're struggling as parents. I left, I left you both silent.

[00:42:48] Arlene: Yeah, no, it that, that's sometimes a good thing. If we don't have anything to say, it means we're thinking. Can we talk a little bit ? Yeah. Can we talk a little bit more about your latest book, you know, [00:43:00] Sex? So like you said, it does cover reproduction, but. It's a huge volume that has so much more in it.

So can you address some of the other things that are, are part of sex that don't often get included when we think about sex ed?

[00:43:17] Cory: Yeah, we should do that. Yes, cuz it's true. So most people, when they think of sex education, what they think of is like, okay, so kids get taught how babies are made, which means they have to be taught about intercourse and kids get taught what, what sexually transmitted diseases are. And, and then maybe body parts, like they get taught the names of body parts.

But that is, that is not what most kids wanna know about, Right? That is not what's, That's so, so, so first of all, that's not all sex ed. So sex to me, sex education is fundamentally about like learning that you have a body, that your body has feelings and that you have thoughts about your body and learning how to be in the world with other people and other bodies in a way that like, hopefully brings joy and, and [00:44:00] minimizes harm, right?

That is the large picture of what sex education is, right. Sex education is also about friends and friendship and learning how to make a friendship. Sex education is about crushes, but mostly sex. You know, early on in, you know, sex is a, there's a chapter called that Time You Learned About Sex and the chapter's all about what it means to learn about sex.

And the message in the chapter is, there's two important messages. One is that learning about sex means learning about yourself because sex, because even if we just think about sex as sexual activity for adults in order to, to have sex that is pleasurable, and not harmful because, let's just say a lot of us actually engage in sex. That is not great for us. Either we don't like it or we actually don't want it all. And I'm not just talking about assault, I'm talking many of us haven't been told that we're worthy of feeling good for its own sake. Many of us haven't been, been told that the way our bodies work is just fine, even though what our bodies need is not what TV and movies say [00:45:00] bodies need for sex, Right?

So not everybody wants to do this thing. Not, I mean, I don't know if it's okay. I don't know how explicit we can get, but just for, for an example there's this idea that an orgasm is the most important thing in the world. Some people actually experience pain when they have orgasm. So they want sex without an orgasm, and then they feel bad about that, right?

Because then they're not having orgasms, which means they're not having a good sex life, which means maybe their marriage is bad. And, you know, there's so. So, so much judgment and shame around this stuff. To say nothing of the fact, we should also talk briefly about people who are asexual, right? So, so what we know now as a gift of activists is that there are people who sexual orientation is asexual.

They, this is the term they use for themselves. They've chosen this term, and these are people who, for whom sexual energy and activity is, is not pleasurable. It's not interesting. So, asexuals may want intimacy. They may want long term relationships, they may want families, but they don't wanna do the sex things cuz it just doesn't feel good.

And there's, you [00:46:00] know, people this, there's now research on, so one of the, one of the research, one of the big sort of survey research, this suggests about 1% of the population feel this way. But because we live in a world that says everyone's supposed to have sex, that says that like a grown up, you're like, that even tells children in sex education.

Sex is something you, you're gonna, you're gonna wanna have when you're older. That's actually not true for all of us. But because we're all told that some people who just aren't that interested in sex are then themselves, they're pathologized. It's like there's something wrong with you because you're not interested in sex.

Right? And that's not right. And so anyway, so in order to not have a world like this, we need to be able to figure out what it is we want. We need to know how to communicate that to the people we care about and who are in relationships with. And that's what sex education is. And so for 10 year olds, obviously that, you know, in my book, I'll say another thing.

There's 432 pages and there's two pages to talk about sexual activity. So [00:47:00] 430 pages out of this book do not reference sexual activity. I I, oh, sorry. There's a, there is a chapter on kissing, so there's maybe 10 pages about sexual activity. Everything else is not that. It's about what are boundaries? Like what does it feel like when someone crosses a boundary?

What can you do if you have that feeling? What does it look like on someone else when you do that? How do you learn? There's a section about learning how to apologize to people. is also because of the world, we live in a big section on safety at the end. And so that includes information about bullying and harassment.

And it's written for sort of three groups. People who are experiencing something like bullying, harassment, people who are doing it, who are the perpetrators, and then people who are witnessing it. Because in order to, because again, most education is really just like, don't bully.

And if you get bullied, report it as if we're gonna solve this problem without actually bringing the people who are doing the bullying into the conversation. Right. Because again, you know, I mean, for me it's easier with kids. It's easier to have empathy [00:48:00] and grace for young people, even young people who are doing violence.

And that's messed up. I should be able to do that with adults too, but I'm just being honest that can do with kids in an easier way. So there's that. And then there is a, and then there's a importantly, there's a ch there's a chapter on sexual sexual abuse. So child to sexual abuse. And certainly the hardest part to write, it's the part that I wrote most with professionals, right?

So I had a lot of professionals who are, who work with young people who are, who have experienced violence, and now are in the system because of that. But it needs to be there. It needs to be there. And I've had a couple families tell me that their child revealed that, that they experienced abuse after reading the book. So again, we don't see, we don't see anyone being abused, but there's scenarios, right?

So we talk about online you know, basically grooming and there's a scenario with a teacher and a chi and a student, and then there's a, and a family scenario. You know, and so it's just sort of showing what we see is the adult, what we get sometimes called tricky behavior. So we're just like showing like this is and trying to help [00:49:00] kids get a sense of when like we're trying to help kids notice when they feel like something is going wrong.

And then of course we talk about what they can do because that's also complicated, right? We do this with kids too, which is if someone touches you in a way you don't like, go tell your teacher or go tell a police officer or go tell this person, or go tell your parent.

And the reality is that those people that we say go tell may be the ones doing the harm. So we have to tell kids, we have to tell them more people, right? That the answer is we have to say, here's, you know, who are your trusted people? Which is certainly a thing as an educator that I encourage parents to be doing with their kids, which is like, do you have a list?

Right? Like when people say like, How do I keep my kids safe? Well, part of it's like, how have you talked about this? And and for older kids, you know, but 10, it's like, do they have a list? Do do you have a list of these are the, these are the people that I trust and that I think you can trust. Do you trust them?

Which you, you know, do you have other people to call and talk to? So that's, so there's that. Then there's all the other, like, there's kind of consent to boundaries and I said crushes love [00:50:00] chapter in love.

[00:50:02] Arlene: Yeah.

[00:50:03] Cory: it's not, sorry, I just, I, I, I ended up with the really dark stuff. I'll say one

[00:50:06] Arlene: no, that's okay.

[00:50:06] Cory: about that is that there is also a chapter in trauma.

Because again, kids have already experienced trauma, many kids have. And so it's just sort of reflect, it's some something to reflect that experience. So they don't think that, you know there's something wrong.

[00:50:23] Arlene: Yeah. So much of it is about teaching kids to trust themselves and giving them the, the language, right, and the, the, the skills to, to communicate on all different levels.

[00:50:36] Caite: So in our private Facebook group, we had asked listeners, what types of questions they had wanted answers to. And we had one listener who said, My husband and I don't want our kids to grow up with any shame around sex.

Both of us had the mean girls experience at school and coupled with parents who have very strong Christian conservative values meant we both had some issues with it that we had to work through. And we wanna be able to talk more openly with our kids about everything and make sure [00:51:00] they're comfortable talking to us with any questions.

Having said that, I have no idea where to start.

[00:51:05] Cory: Well, I mean, I think you can start with that experience, right? I think you talked, I mean, it depends on the age of the kids Right. But, so if we're talking about. We're talking about kids eight and up. I would be sharing, this is how I was raised, right?

So I was raised, we never talked about sex, We never, and whatever it is, if it's like we never talked about bodies I never saw. So, so a a, an example is for a lot of people, cuz what I wanna say is like to share to, for this person who wrote this is like, when most of us are trying to do is like, just mess our kids up a little less than we were messed up.

Right?

[00:51:35] Arlene: Or in a different way?

[00:51:37] Caite: I'm aiming for more fun ways.

[00:51:40] Cory: more fun ways. Okay, good. Yes. Because then there's more resilience in a, in different ways. Fair. Yes. I do think that that's sort of the project. That they're resistant. So classic examples for a lot of people grew up in a household where no one ever saw anyone naked.

Doors were always closed. And then sometimes the next generation there's more openness. So maybe they let their kids in, in the bedroom or the bathroom, they [00:52:00] share a bathroom, whatever it is.

[00:52:01] Caite: Cory, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop you right here because it occurs to me that you're the perfect person to give me an official answer in this.

[00:52:07] Cory: Okay, great.

[00:52:08] Caite: When does it start being weird to be naked around your kids? Cause my kids do not grasp the concept of a closed door. And unless I'm gonna go like the full, like arrested development, never nude situation where I just wear Jean Schwartz at all times when do I need to start really enforcing that?

Because I don't care. I, whatever I've

[00:52:30] Cory: So, okay, so, so the answer is if you don't care, then the answer is they're gonna tell you, right. There is gonna be a time other, Wait, remind me how old your kids are.

[00:52:39] Caite: and five,

[00:52:40] Cory: Oh, right, okay.

[00:52:40] Caite: a while.

[00:52:41] Cory: my God, you have so long. But they're, But I promise you that certainly as teenagers of teen, the teen age, teenage, as they become close to become teenagers, they're gonna change this.

Right? And, and to the point where it might be a bit sad for you, and you may even wanna talk about it. Just make sure they know that I know your body's changing a lot and, and [00:53:00] you deserve, and you get to have privacy. And also I want you to know that I think your body's whatever, beautiful, or all our bodies are beautiful.

And this home can be a place where you can feel, you know, if you wanna sit on the couch not on the couch, fully naked, maybe it's towel. But anyway every family has different rules. Like, like, like, like in mine, it's like you can't be fully naked when you're eating a dinner, right? There has to be. But because part of the answer, cause a lot of kids, young kids are like, Well, what's the point of clothes?

So part of my answer is, well, it's actually to protect our bodies a little bit. But I do think, yeah, I, so the answer is there isn't on age, there isn't like it's 10. And in my experience, kids, usually you can let your kids lead that or you lead that, right? So I, if you get to a point where you're uncomfortable, then I think it's fine.

And also you can say it, right? And so this bring, this, this connects to the, the question from Facebook, which is that it's really helpful for our kids to hear our own sort of thinking through and struggles with boundaries and bodies and sort of sexual values. So for example, to [00:54:00] say, I was told. That if you even look at a boy, you're gonna get pregnant. I now know that's not the case. I also would prefer for you to not get pregnant until act, You know, every family is gonna have their own thing. But to start with that, to start with, like, we were raised this way, and particularly the mean girls' point, right?

It's really important for kids to hear about the ways that we were mistreated and harmed and how we dealt with it because we've survived it, right? So many kids experience, certainly my experience of being bullied and harassed is that we're isolated. We're the only ones that no one's really, no one's ever really been treated this badly, and we're not sure we're gonna survive it because kids, you know, kids are so weird with us parents because they actually pay really close attention to us.

They actually do want to know what we think. So there, in Canada, there was some survey research where they asked young people, Who do you wanna learn about sex from? And parents were either number one or number two, and most parents were surprised by that because of course, our kids also tell us that we're wrong all the time and they didn't [00:55:00] wanna listen to us, right?

So it, so it's confusing, right? They send us mixed messages because they're, they're growing and developing. But, part of the problem is that they actually think that we're more together than we are. Partly because we keep it together, right? Like when we're, we're dealing with loss, whatever it is, we keep a lot of things from our kids because that feels like the, like an appropriate boundary.

So I think the place to start is with all of this stuff about like, we. Kind of being mistreated. We grew up confused. And then it's about sharing. The other thing is, the other thing I wanna say, and this is true for our books, is our books don't tell you what to tell your kids about sex. Because I don't know what you wanna say.

Right? So if you wanna say, sex is, for us, sex is something that has become an important part of our relationship, It's also something that we think is saved for marriage or whatever it is, then that's what you should tell your kid. Like, don't let anyone else tell you what to tell your kids.

Obviously the way that I work and the way I do sex education is also to remind all of us that our kids are not us. So we don't wanna, we don't wanna set them up thinking like we're, I'm gonna tell you how to have a healthy, [00:56:00] heterosexual monogamous marriage for the rest of your life. Because our kids might not be heterosexual.

They might want not be monogamous. They might end up being trans or gender queer in some way. So you wanna teach your, you wanna make sure your kids know what the world broadly. Cause what you want your kids to know is that they have a future.

And it's hard for kids like me who were queer. I didn't know that word back then. Kids who don't see themselves in media, in their schools, in their families, it's easy to think they don't have in the future. Right? And, and, and like, and social media is making that a little bit better because we're seeing.

Like every kind of, you know, if you look at like, you know, musicians and successful actors, like there's so many more of them that are out as gay or sometimes asexual or trans or queer or non-monogamous or whatever it is. But still, for a lot of our kids, they don't see that. And so they think that, that the only way to survive is to be like the people around them.

And [00:57:00] if you are already pretty sure that you can't be like the people around you, that is something that puts, that makes your life precarious. So I do. So while I think, So it's important that we, you know, when you're doing sex education with your kids, it reflects your values. We also wanna, I, I hope that those between include there's all sorts of ways to be, and you are worthy and your life is important.

[00:57:20] Arlene: Yeah. That leads really well into the question that I had next, which is about gender and both of your books for older kids. Go into more depth on that. And I know that there are probably, you know, my kids have maybe already passed me in terms of, of what they know versus what I know. I feel like I'm learning from your books as much as they are. The other day my 11 year old called someone transphobic and I'm sure that when I was 11 I did not have that, that vocabulary.

[00:57:45] Cory: Oh no. Oh my God, I

[00:57:46] Arlene: Yeah. So can you teach us a bit about gender so that we're not, that our kids don't have to, to teach us any, all of the things or that we don't have

[00:57:56] Cory: I can, I do wanna say though, I actually think it's great to have your kids teach you things., I know this is [00:58:00] kids love being in the position of being the teacher because it's a position of power.

So it's a great thing to, I mean, of course it's not always as a parent to navigate that, but it is this great moment of shift. And of course there's, you know, and I just wanna say for people who already have older kids, like, yes, and they're gonna roll their eyes sometimes, but if you get them away from their friends and in a kind of quiet moment, they can be very generous and have grace for us also.

So yeah. So I mean, what, what's important to know? So, I guess the important thing I think the fundamentals to know is that we were raised to be told that there's two sexes, right? So that, and, and that they're, that they are, that you're, that you are either male or female. That's not actually how it works.

So the word sex in this case is a word that's assigned to you. So when you're born, someone looks at your body and they just look at the outside. And if they see a penis in scro testicles, scrotum, then they say, that's a boy. And if they see evolve, they say, That's a girl. And that's, but what they say is that that's a male and that's a female.

So you are assigned to [00:59:00] sex. Our bodies are actually much more complicated than that. So there's a lot of bodies that it's not clear. Is that a, is it a very small penis? Is it a very large clitoris? Is it a vulva or is it a scrotum? And it's actually quite common, but because no one tells you that people think it's no, that never happens.

And so one term for bodies like that, those bodies sometimes get called intersex. There's also another term called dsd, which stands for differences of sex development. And so the thing that we all need to know is that, that when we're fetal, it's all the same stuff, right? Our bodies, all bodies grow from the same stuff.

And then it just changes in different ways. And most bodies like can be visually kind of categorized. But not all bodies. And there's a bunch of bodies sort of in the middle. So there's more than two sexes. It's actually more than male and female. So that's one thing. Then for gender, there's more than two genders, right?

So again, where I if, you know, if we're sign male at birth, then we're called a boy. And if we're signed female at birth, we're called a girl. And as it turns out, oh, I guess the important thing to know about gender is the one difference is gender's a war [01:00:00] that. How you see yourself and how you feel. So gender is not like there's, there's no, there's no bo markers in the body of gender, right?

There are markers in the body that met, that the medical profession has decided are markers of sex, but not gender. So gender is this thing that describes both sort of like how we feel inside sort of on a spectrum of masculinity and femininity, how we choose to look, right? So how we wear our hair, what we dress like, how we, how we talk, how we move identity and expression.

So gender is everywhere, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Different people have different feelings about this, but it's all more complicated than two options, right? So the fact that we're told it's two options.

It's called a binary. So it's called the gender binary and the reality. That there's just more. Right. So, people who understand themselves as women or young women or whatever it is I've never met a woman that feels like she actually fits the category, like fits the expectations of what a women woman is. I've never met a man who feels that way either. And [01:01:00] that's because the boxes and expectations are too narrow, right?

They're just words. It's why our second book is called, Sex is a Funny Word, because I think that it's important that we remember that these things are actually just words. We are people and we're complicated and we get to be all of these things or some of these things. And a lot of us fit just, a lot of us fit more or less in those boxes though.

So there's like, again, it's, this isn't about like. We're all, everything, right? There's some kids that come out that could call the boy that loves sports and rough housing and don't cry, and all these other things, which of course are the result of socialization and not their, their genes. But, but are very happy that way.

And there's girls who, you know, feel comfortable in sort of these whatever, kind of more traditional feminine roles, and that's great, right? It isn't about people. It's not, this is the, the goal of talking about gender is not that people need to be anything other than who they are. The problem, the reason we do this work, the reason we have these conversations is [01:02:00] the idea that this boys and girls, men and women, we think that way because all of us are very susceptible.

All of us can be bullied into behaving the way we're told to behave, right? So the fact that a certain age, you know, kids seem to like, kids seem to veer off like all like this group of kids is playing soccer and doing this, and this group of kids is doing more relational stuff. And so we call it this group of boys.

In this group of girls. That's mostly a result of the fact that we subtly tell, Kids that are called boy to behave this way, and kids that are called girl to behave this way, right? And when we tell kids, you can be whoever you want you can like what you want and who you want, and what we want for you is to you for you to figure that out for yourself.

And we're gonna put all these options in front of you and we're gonna help you navigate how to do this safely and not hurting other people. So that's the boundaries and not bullying and all that kind of stuff. What we see is that kids, kids want more, right? And that's why we're seeing way more kids saying, I'm not a Boyer girl, like I'm non-binary.

Which is a term that gets [01:03:00] that people use most of that word, the, this word non-binary is just a term for kids, but also adults who say like, actually this, the, the two choices doesn't work for me. So saying you're non-binary doesn't mean you look a certain way because you might be non-binary and have long hair and like to wear makeup.

And you might have breasts or you might be non-binary and not have those things, or you might be non-binary and look kind of like androgynous sort of somewhere in the middle. But non-binary is just an identity that says, like, like these two choices are, are really a problem for me, . So I don't know.

I mean, if this is the question you asked is a question that you could spend a year studying. So does that, how is that, Do you have any

[01:03:40] Arlene: that, yeah, that, that does cover a lot of, you know, at at least a, a starting point for a lot of us, I

[01:03:46] Cory: Yeah. Can I say, can I say one other thing about, again, everyone deals with this stuff differently, but for me, what I want us to attend to is not the politics and even is not the language, it's how things feel. Right? So for me, I'm someone [01:04:00] who's queer and gender queer. And then the term non-binary would be the one that fits for me because of my age.

Cause I, I didn't know that term. I took a long time to use that. But I now use they, them pronouns, but forever I use he pronouns because that's what I was called when I was a kid. And the truth is that, that that pronoun doesn't always feel bad when people say he doesn't what to do bad. But then I had a kid and people started calling it dad and it was really awful.

And so I should be clear, but like, what do we mean? Like what, So what that means for me is like, I would be called a dad and I would, I wouldn't be able to talk anymore. And I would go home and I would not think that I was a good parent or a good person. And I would sometimes cry and I would just feel terrible about who I am.

I wouldn't know what was going on. I feel so which, so that gets called like sometimes people call it gender dysphoria. There's all different terms, but the point is people are using language that is really hurting me and is making it hard for me to move through the world. That's the stuff I want us to be aware of with our kids, [01:05:00] Right?

And it's why, it's like, what's, why I'm not concerned? Some people say like, Well, you can't, like kids, like keep changing their pronouns or doing this and that. I don't know why we can't. I mean, if you don't have the energy for it, then you can just be honest about that and say to your kid, like, you know, No, I can't, I can't do that.

But, but if you, But, but the question is like, what? Like why? Right. If kids wanna just try stuff on, that's great. I also want us just to be mindful of the fact that it's not, it's not just a preference for a lot of us, it's, it, it's, you know, I'm not, I don't like using psychological terms, so I'm not going to because I think sometimes we're like, Oh, well if it's a, if it's, if it's a mental health issue, then we'll do it.

It's like, well actually, if it's makes it harder for you to live in the world, then let's try to care about each other and try to make it easier for us to live in the world. So, So that's the other thing I wanted just say is that, that there's that for some of us, it, you know, for some of us it's a really big deal and it's the difference between actually being able to pay attention in school, being able to trust our parents, feeling like we have anywhere to belong.

And for other kids it's [01:06:00] more about wanting more choice, which is also great. But but I think, I think unfortunately the way that all of this gets talked about in public is awful , right? That in the media, obviously it's terrible because I just don't hear a lot of care. Right. When I hear people yelling and screaming about this or trying to band books without, like, I'm not, Of course they say they, they say, Well, they don't even say they're care about kids.

They say they're protecting the kids, which of course they're not. But, so I, I guess that's, I guess that's my last sort of pitch is like, when we're thinking about gender, let's just center caring, right? And, and so that's also where I would start a conversation, right? So if I had a kid that was asking for things, I would really start with, So what does it feel like when, you know, this happens when, when the teacher says boys and girls, Right?

And, and I, I'd ask 'em like, what does it feel like in your body? What does it do in your mind? How does it, you know, change the way you can pay attention? Because that's, there's a real, you know, because it's not just a political fight, right? It's actually, this is, this is based on our bodies and, [01:07:00] and how we, and, and trying to make more of us Okay.

In the world. I dunno, I don't, I'm, I'm not good at endings, so I'm just gonna stop talking.

[01:07:08] Caite: Corey I, one of the things I really valued about the what makes a baby and the. I don't wanna say asexual nature of the drawings, but

[01:07:19] Cory: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:20] Caite: the lack of, of gender definition in the drawings is that it gave me the chance to say to my kid, you know, cuz this whole bullshit about kids will be confused about this.

My five year old is never confused about anything. Not once she knows what's going on, dammit. Was that it gave me the ability to say, you know, some people have sperm. They might look like boys if they tell us they are girls or that they're just not boys or girls. We believe them.

[01:07:49] Cory: Right,

[01:07:50] Caite: people might not look like girls and might actually be girls and they will tell us they're girls and we will believe them because we [01:08:00] believe when people tell us who they are, and as someone who has gotten misgendered a number of times because of being tall and having a lower voice and short hair, you know, who I do fully identify as female.

But just let people tell you who they are and then just believe them. And this idea of consent and, and caring, but not allowing kids to tell us who they are. I mean, my kid doesn't like wearing jeans. I don't make or wear jeans. It seems really weird to go from that to. But you look like a girl, so damnit, that's what you're gonna be, you know?

And I get that. It's, it's hard because we weren't raised with that for, for most of us, but

[01:08:48] Cory: It's true. Oh, yeah. I mean, almost all of us weren't raised with that. So, so it is like, the way you just said that is so beautiful.

And, and again, of course it seems so simple, but it is a challenge for many people. [01:09:00] Is that something, Does that, getting to that point and choosing to talk to your kids that way, is that just something that came naturally? Was it the result of intellectual work? Like, like, so do you know how you got there?

Why, why, how? Like, do you know what I mean? Give, given that you weren't raised, you weren't raised that way, you didn't know that. No one, no one told me that either. Right.

[01:09:22] Caite: I have a hippie mom. I think that most of my, of my socialization came from outside the home. You know, I was raised by a strong single parent who, my mom worked as a chimney sweep when I was a kid. Like we were not a real stereotypical Midwestern family, but also the, the value. People is diversity and curiosity and creativity.

And we need to let people have that space. And I, I, [01:10:00] I think because of my personality, I find this diversity, and especially how much it's growing. I mean, my kids go to a school to graduating class last year, which less than 60 kids, there is a young person who identifies as male, appears to be biologically male on the high school wrestling, cheerleading team wearing a dress.

And people leave them alone because who gives a shit? And that's, I mean, it's magic to me that we can just see what these people offer without crushing them. And I grew up with, you know, I grew up with friends who got sent to straightening camps and

[01:10:44] Cory: right.

[01:10:44] Caite: were, I mean, literally tortured for wanting to have sex with other men, which

[01:10:51] Cory: Yeah,

[01:10:51] Caite: students really fucked up.

I mean, I'm sorry, but it's, it's fucked up. And

[01:10:57] Cory: It's

[01:10:58] Caite: I just, [01:11:00] there are so many horrible things that we can't change in the world that I don't wanna add things that I can change to that. And so I would rather that my kids grow up like that and to.

[01:11:14] Cory: Yeah.

[01:11:15] Caite: All the things that they might not understand with curiosity and excitement to get to learn about it.

Because how cool is all of this? Rather than going, Oh, it's not like me. Ugh. Like if you don't get it, don't have sex with them. Like fine . You know? Like they're not gonna make you do it. If they're gonna make you do it, that's unhealthy and you shouldn't do it. Unless you're into that and you're consenting to not consent and then cool, do it, you know?

But just leave people the fuck alone. Be excited. Be interested in who they are, unless they don't wanna tell you, then leave them alone.

[01:11:53] Cory: Thanks.

[01:11:54] Caite: story short.

[01:11:56] Cory: No, thank you. Yeah, I mean, because I think that this is, [01:12:00] Anyway, I just think that's important. I appreciate you sharing all that and for people to hear it.

[01:12:03] Caite: So speaking of gender nonconforming kids, and it is like, I hear the older generation around here going, Well, there were never gay people when we were young. Like the fuck, there weren't, They've always been there. It just wasn't safe for them to be gay or for them to tell you about it.

Cuz I guarantee that people have been doing what they. For generations,

[01:12:25] Cory: Forever. Yes.

[01:12:27] Caite: tell you. And so now I know even in our small rural area, a number of gender nonconforming kids or gender fluid kids and adults, and it's, you know, I might not understand it, but it's none of my damn business. Anyways, so that we know that resources in rural areas are harder to find.

Both the mental health resources and I had not realized how many physical dangers there can be to gender non-conforming kids or trans kids even as [01:13:00] far as, you know, chest binding and things like

[01:13:02] Cory: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:03] Caite: no idea how unhealthy that can be if done badly. What support is out there and how can we, what are good ways to access that for us and our children?

[01:13:12] Cory: So there's, there's some national groups. There's a lot of stuff online. Again, once you have kids who are like teens, I often get questions from parents, but like, I need a good resource for this, for my like 16 year old. They already, if they're online, then they already have probably found some good resources, cuz they're much better than we are at finding there are people online.

So one of the groups that I really like is a group called Trans Families. They're based in Seattle or they're on the west coast. And they do like online support groups and they, I think they brought a conference every year. There's a bunch of organizations that are often, they're started by parents.

Who have gender non-conforming or non-binary or trans kids who themselves are not those things. So gender normative. And they were like, Okay, we gotta figure this out and how am I gonna advocate for my kid in [01:14:00] school? And how am I gonna keep my safe kids safe at camp? Or how am I gonna support them in trying to be in the sports teams that they wanna be in?

So yeah, so I think like the big message is like what you've already said, which is like, there's lots of people who are going through this exact thing with the, with a kid, your kid's exact age maybe not where you are. And all of this is so dependent on where we live. Although I also wanna share what I think, I mean, you've shared it in our other conversations, is the, you know, stupid narrow minded stereotypes about rural versus urban suggested.

Like, if you're queer, it's much better to grow up in a city. It's just, since you've started swearing, I'll say it's bullshit. It's total bullshit. And so I absolutely know I have friends or people in my life who grew up rurally in the south, some of the United States who, who felt much safer in the town they grew up in than when they went to visit San Francisco, Right?

So there's that, when you talk about that sort of class, it's a class thing. And I don't know what that, there must be a term for that kind of discrimination against rural, but Having said that, as you said, [01:15:00] like they're, they're, they're not, I mean, but the resources aren't there. The money isn't there.

If you, what I, what I would wanna do is let me go and ask a few people and I can give you some other places to go, but, but trans families is a really good one. There's other organizations, like, it really depends on the kinds of support you're looking for. So an I don't know who runs it, but there's a thing called Welcoming Schools.

It's a US based thing that's really about helping. Navigate supporting their kids in schools. So there's, you know, there's like, there's like lesson plans that they can send teachers and stuff like that. So much of, and then, you know, people, I mean people just email me. They can also just email me if they have a question and like, you know, I mean, the thing is if you're not, if you're kind of gender normative and straight and then you have a kid that's saying, This is not who I am it's a lot to figure out because you might not have gay people in your life or you not, might not have trans people or non-binary people in your life.

So it can be helpful just to kind of talk to an adult who is that or who has a lot of those people, because there's all sorts of things like, like, you know, how do you talk to family members about it? How do you [01:16:00] navigate? And, and in, in our old, in the third book you know, Sex, there is a chapter, it's called Sharing, but it's about disclosure basically.

Cuz this is a big question. It's like a lot of people say like, so you have a kid who's now like saying, you called that kid a boy their whole life and now they're like six or seven or whatever. They're like, I'm not a boy and I want you to do this and you may be okay with this, but you also may know that you may have family members that are not okay with this.

And so then that becomes, for some people, this question about like, well how sure do I have to be right? The thing that we do as parents, which is to, I I it's hard not to do. Like, we want our kids to have a future and we wanna, and we imagine, we try to imagine our kids' future. So what I see is, so you do have the parents that are like, No, the only future for my kid is the straight future where they get married and they have kids.

But then you have a lot of parents who are like, Okay, I want my kid to have this future if they're gay, if they're trans, that's okay. But then they, what we do as parents just be like, Okay, so I'm gonna go find the successful gay and trans people, and I can imagine your future to be that future . Right?[01:17:00]

We can't really imagine our kids' future, but what we wanna be doing, the, the support we need is about like, helping them know that there is one and that we can help them get there. And that things are always open.

Oh, I think I, I think I was probably sharing this thing about parents. So what we do as parents is we can actually then subtly Direct our kids into another kind of normativity is a way of putting it right? So, okay, okay. So you're not straight or you're not a girl. And so I'm gonna work through that.

Okay, now I have a son, so now I'm gonna, I want the best son I can have. And this is what it means, like to be a son. And again, particularly with younger kids, we don't, we really wanna leave things open. We wanna let 'em know that we love them and that we're here to show up for them. And now I remember that I was talking about this disclosure piece.

So often the question for us is like, does this mean if my kid is saying this, if my kid is saying I'm not a boy, does this mean they're trans? And the answer with young kids is always like, We don't know. I don't know. And I can't know. Right? And you can't know because also your kid doesn't know. Because, because the truth is that none of us [01:18:00] are one thing, right?

That we do have this new language of like being your true self, right? So this is the language talks about with trans youth sometimes is letting kids be their authentic selves or their true selves. I don't use that language cause I don't know what it means because I'm 52 years old and I couldn't tell you who my true self was.

What does that mean? Does that mean that I was lying when I thought I was something else? We learn more about ourselves than we become something different. Like, like people tell us who they are. So if our kid is saying, if coming and saying like, I don't think I'm a girl, I'm boy. It's like, okay, let's start having those conversations and you are still the parent and you may decide we're not gonna bring grandma and grandpa into this just yet, or we're not gonna, you know, And now if your kid is saying, I want them to, maybe your kid has a very close relationship with their grandparents, then you do need to address that.

But in the absence of them telling you what they want, you can decide, Okay, let's just, So a lot of people, for example, say like, Let's just try this at home and see what it feels like. And then maybe they expand on, I share that as an anecdote of the kind of thing that when you get to talk to other [01:19:00] parents who've been through it, they, they, they can help you with that because it does all seem new.

But nowadays there's lots of books about like gender and parenting. There's also lots of documentaries, so I think, I think like the reason, I guess the other thing I wanna say is like, I'm also pretty anti expert, so I would rather parents find any documentary on like, whatever, Netflix or wherever it is, watch it, and then if it's appropriate to watch with their age kid, maybe watch it together and then use that as a conversation.

Because really that's the other thing is like, you know, if parents have a big role in this work, right? It isn't about like farming it off to gender experts or whoever. And I say that to say that like often parents feel like, Well, I don't know enough, right? I'm not gay, so how can I raise a gay kid in a healthy way or whatever.

And I just, I I, I always tell 'em, I don't think that's actually the way it works, right? You don't need to be, you know, because the other thing is you're not sharing your direct experience with your kid [01:20:00] anyway. You're sharing your values, you're sharing problem solving, you're sharing how you build relationships, how you stay safe.

You don't need to have their exact experience.

[01:20:08] Arlene: Okay. I mean, it's good to know that there are resources out there and that, you know, sometimes we want to know, okay, I just go to this one website or, you know, read this one book and that's the answer. But you know, as in all aspects of parenting, there's, there are no right answers, which is both great and frustrating.

Right.

[01:20:27] Cory: Yeah. Well, and, where are there resources? And there probably are, but it might be harder to find that really reflect your family. Right? Because again, most of this stuff is super white and very urban, right? It's written for, written for like, go to the LGBT center, . It's like, okay, well what if I don't have one within like,

[01:20:43] Arlene: It's six hours away.

[01:20:44] Cory: Exactly.

[01:20:45] Caite: Yeah. Whip down to your closest Planned Parenthood, like I think ours is two and a half hours away or something. I know. Cory, thinking about, you know, what you asked me about my overarching parenting philosophy is basically harm [01:21:00] reduction. What I want my kids to be more than anything is happy and safe.

Everything else is after that. And so to me, I know one of the biggest resources that I'm trying to build for my kids is adults they can talk to who are not me and daddy because I don't really wanna think about my 14 year old having sex. But if my 14 year old is having sex, I want them to know an adult that can help them give birth control and be safe.

And be healthy and, ugh. At four and five, thinking about them being old enough to have sex is terrifying on a number of levels, but

[01:21:41] Arlene: you might wanna close your ears for the next

[01:21:43] Caite: No, no. Arlene, I have one more question. I'm, I'm inserting my question. There's nothing you can do about it and then you can ask all your questions.

[01:21:50] Arlene: Yeah.

[01:21:53] Caite: Can we very quickly debunk the concept that you, will, you or anything else will turn your kid gay or [01:22:00] trans or

[01:22:01] Cory: Yes, sure.

[01:22:03] Caite: bullshit? That's it.

[01:22:05] Cory: right. So for people who care about science, there's, there's no, there's never been a rigorous demonstration in any, No researcher of, in any field has demonstrated that any amount of material and influence can make a person a thing. Just so, so we have no science that demonstrates that.

And then I would just say anyone who's actually paying attention to the people around them, I don't know how anyone who's actually paid attention while raising a kid could think you can make a kid something, right?

I can barely make my kid brush their teeth. I'm certainly not gonna, I can't make my, can make your kid have their favorite color be pink or blue or purple or whatever. So, but what we, what, what, what I think the piece that people sometimes miss is, of course we can bully kids into pretending they're something they aren't.

Right. And that's what most gender socialization is, right? It's subtle. It's not, we don't think, you know, people don't think of themselves as bullies. [01:23:00] But subtly when we tell certain kids and to stop crying and we tell other kids that it's okay, or we pay more attention to the relationships and friendships of this kind of kid and not that kind of kid we are subtly bullying, pressuring them into acting a certain way.

So it is true that we can, that kids will pretend to be something they aren't. But you can't, you just can't, you can't make someone something that they aren't. You just can't, You can make them live their whole life a very miserable life, pretending they're something they aren't. So I think the thing that people mis misunderstand is they think that the way it was in quotes, everything was simple back then.

But no, back then, people just, people just pretended more, right? And so now people pretend less, or, or not all people, a lot of us still pretend, but, but once given the option, once kids are told, well, You can be a girl and be whatever, president or an engineer or whatever guess what, A lot of federalists wanna be more than just a girl, right?

[01:24:00] Like that is the other thing I think. I think the other thing I'll share, this isn't really an answer to your question, but like, is like, the categories are limited and the problem is the categories. There's nothing wrong with, you know, if you feel like a girl and a woman, and that's, that's like positive and empowering to, that's great, but, but let's also recognize that the category of girl and women, woman is just too small, right?

So, and let's not, and let's not mistake gender and, and, and society with chromosomes, right? So I, I understand why scientists want to talk about sex on a chromosomal level. It's still unimaginative and also wrong, right? So now, now they're actually, of course, as we're learning more than we're learning about genetic variation.

So, but nonetheless I understand why we do that, but when we're talking about the playground or the classroom or wherever, it's a different situation. I don't know what else you can say to people who are, who are afraid of that or who think that you can be something. But I do think it's [01:25:00] worthwhile to name the pressure thing, right?

So when people say like, Well, I'm worried that my kid's being pressured to so to such and such, sure, your kid may be being pressured to either be more gender normative or be less gender normative depending on their social scene. All of that pressure exists. It doesn't just come from peer pressure. The little pet peeve as parents love talking about peer pressure as if we aren't a giant source of pressure, as if teachers and the religious leaders and elders and grandparents aren't huge source of pressure.

Peer pressure is just one part of the pressure kids ex experience. So I do think it's, we have to name that, right? We can't, we can't like this idea of like, well, we just naturally flow into whoever we are. Well, that's not how it works. So what, what do we wanna do? We don't wanna tell kids. You should be this way or you should be that way.

We do wanna help kids notice when the decisions they're making are based on pressure versus some internal sense of what they want. Right? Which, by the way, is also really great for sex education, right? Because same thing, when they get to the point of making decisions about having [01:26:00] sex, we don't want them to have sex because everyone else is doing it.

We do want them or whatever. I mean, it's so, like, in my world, it's okay for them to do that you know, if they have the safety piece when it's something that they want. And I'm speaking generally, of course, because I will also, I also have a kid who's not there yet, and I will probably feel differently when they are there.

I mean, that's the thing is also if these are people in your life, you know, the question is like, are do you really wanna, you know, spend your time talking back to this? And if there are people in your life, then maybe you do. I say for, for the, for the podcast listeners, you think, can't see that you're shaking your head no

[01:26:35] Arlene: there are sometimes though, when those conversations are worth having, right? There might be, you know, say, say a grandparent or a someone in your life who has an opinion that it might be worth doing a deep dive into that conversation. But

[01:26:47] Cory: or you feel like you have to for your kid.

[01:26:49] Arlene: yeah, that's right. Yeah. Or to, to protect your child or your family, that those are conversations that you need to have and that can either open their mind or clarify to you what your family's boundaries are.

So yeah, [01:27:00] those conversations you have to decide for yourself what's, what you, what you want to go into, and, and if that person is someone that you, you have to have that conversation with, or if you can just let that go. I mean, you can let them know that you're, you don't don't have the same opinion, but you don't have to, you don't have to try and convince

[01:27:17] Cory: Right.

[01:27:19] Arlene: So this is where I was gonna say, if Katie wants to, to check out for a few minutes, we're gonna talk about the teens. So

[01:27:24] Cory: This is, by the way, that's some very nice modeling of consent culture,

[01:27:28] Arlene: Thanks. So I know that my teenagers are growing up in a much different world than, than I did. I mean, it seems like we've had lots of conversations about, you know, people sending nudes

[01:27:40] Cory: Mm-hmm.

[01:27:41] Arlene: the accessibility of pornography. I mean, it's not just like a magazine that somebody found sta in the basement anymore like this.

These things are accessible all the time for, for our older kids. So what do we do as parents to help them stay safe and to navigate that world when we're [01:28:00] talking about all of these things around sex?

[01:28:04] Cory: Yeah. So I'll say the thing that's easier to say when I'm not talking about my own kid and harder when I'm in being a parent, which is of course, we can't keep our kids completely safe, right? So, so that's the reality, right? So because they need to be independent and they need to take risks. So that's the kind of hard existential piece that his parents, we have to just navigate.

And the way I'm trying to do that is to think about how many dumb, risky things I did. But I knew I had someone I could talk to, and so I survived, right? Because of course now that I'm a parent, like, like things that are half that risky freaked me out the idea of my kid doing those things. So I mean, so the things you mentioned for sure, I like this idea of like sending, I mean, I mean, digital media aren't the internet in the way that that never goes away in pornography.

In our, in, in the, in the, in the third book, we talk about both of those things. You know, my line on, on like. Sending naked pictures, first of all. I mean, I, I think part of his education, right? So kids need to actually [01:29:00] understand that if they were to send, if they are under the age of consent, wherever they are, and they send a naked picture of themselves to someone that may be legally considered child pornography.

And it doesn't happen a lot, but it absolutely has happened that the child who is sending it perhaps to a, you know a romantic partner, completely consensual, they were both happy with it, may, and, and maybe it doesn't even get shared in a bad way, but a parent or a teacher, someone finds it, they actually could be arrest, they could be charged with creating child pornography, and the person who received it could be charged with possessing child pornography.

So they just need to know that. And, and you can do that. You know, if I had a teenager and I was talking about that, I, part of what I would talk about is like, I, that, that actually doesn't even seem right to me, but that is the way the law works. So you should know this, that I wish you had some control.

You know, again, so I'm thinking of an older teenager who this is gonna be part of their lives and they have a right. But because of this, it's a good idea just to wait until you're older to share any naked picture of [01:30:00] yourself on any digital FLA platform, right? So our kids have to know. I mean, the thing is, a lot of kids now know this, like they have know, obviously that if you send, if you've digitized something, it's, it's almost impossible to make it disappear forever from everywhere.

So it's different than giving someone a photograph, although now they can scan it. So there's this thing about like, what goes online stays online forever, and I think it's an important thing for kids to know. And again, I do think, I mean, a lot of kids just know it. So that's my sort of line about that.

So I just make it about the potential risks and not about the, and not about the issue of like, is it okay to share your sexual self with a partner because part of what a lot of parents want, and this this came in the question from the face that you got on Facebook is they don't want to add to the shame, right?

So we don't need to say like, that's a terrible thing. Or something like, I mean, another thing a lot of parents do is they kinda transmit their own shame around their body, which is like, Oh, I couldn't imagine ever showing someone a naked picture of myself. Like, so I do wanna say you know, the positive in this is if you have a kid who feels good in their body, [01:31:00] that's a good thing.

And, and if they, if they wanna share those good feelings with someone else and they know how to pick someone who's trustworthy, that's also a good thing. So there are some positive parts of this. I just go, I just go right to the law thing because it's just real and they should know it. Right? And, and it is often a surprise to, to young people.

They don't, they don't actually know this part because they think of when they've learned about pornography or, and child pornography. It's, it's this illegal thing, right? And it's this, obviously, it's a thing that always includes exploitation. So that's that the porn thing. I mean, this, you know, the unfortunate reality is we just need to be talking to our kids about porn now, right?

And we, and we need to do it younger than we really want. So for me, the answer is, and it's not that, it's not that I've even done this, but like, the point at which your kid is unattended and has access to YouTube is the point at which you should have some, they should know that word. They should know something about what pornography is.

And they should know that you are totally comfortable talking about it with them. And that if they ever see anything online that they [01:32:00] feel that they, and it's not just if they see anything, like don't make it about sex. Say if you see something online that makes you feel uncomfortable or confused or scared, you can always talk to me about it.

I could look at it on my own and we could talk about it. Like it's just, you know, this stuff is out. And a lot of this stuff is made to make us feel confused and scared. And in the same way that like when we, you know, watch TV together, we talk about, you know, the ads. This is weird. I'm dating myself because

[01:32:26] Arlene: You have ads on your tv

[01:32:27] Cory: Well, on, on Hon Hulu, you still, I, I have the less expensive Hulu, so than when there's ads the, that, you know, we, we do like media literacy. We talk about like how people are trying to sell stuff to us. You know, I wanna talk to you about that stuff. So, so there is, so as I said, so in the book for 10 year olds as a chapter on pornography, honestly, as an educator, it should've been in the book for seven to nine year olds.

And I just, I couldn't figure out quite how to do it in a way that parents were gonna be comfortable with. And it wasn't gonna feel like too much for a lot of people. But because because of the way, particularly since the pandemic and kids are on screens a lot more and, and, and we're all [01:33:00] more comfortable with our kids being unattended on screens because a lot of 'em are doing virtual schools.

So we're now used to like them being in a room like it used to be. A lot of parents were like, they, you know, don't let them be alone on a screen with

[01:33:12] Arlene: Yeah, common spaces

[01:33:13] Cory: Yeah. So I think, yeah, we just, we just need to talk about it. And and then it is, I mean like obviously like the street proofing of the eighties is now, a lot of it is online, right?

So kids do need to know. So, so the newer language is tricky. Adults, I don't know if you've heard this, but some people say like, you talk to kids, but there are some adults who are tricky that, and they, and they may try to trick you into doing things. And so the language I would use with a young kid is like, they, they might try to get you to tell 'em stories or send a picture of yourself to them, right?

So with a young kid, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna talk about sexual abuse. I'm not gonna get specific about those kinds of harms. And other people might, I don't wanna say that I'm right about this. I'm just sharing sort of that's, that's what I've come to. And so I want you to learn how to identify those people because the tricky, cuz of course they're tricky, so they try to pretend to be [01:34:00] other people.

So unfortunately we need to let our kids know that those people, that, that there's people out there, I don't use to, when I just did there, I pause, right? Like I try not to do it. Those people or they're out there. Because the thing that I learned from working with social workers who work with children who are experiencing abuse is weirdly, they're like, don't make this scary, right?

So when we did our first draft of the sexual abuse chapter, the illustrations were different. Like they were literally, they looked a bit more like kind of claustrophobic because we wanted to mark this as different. We had been talking about all kinds of good touch and now we're talking about this and they were all.

If you make it scary, no one's gonna wanna talk about it. Parents aren't gonna wanna talk about it, kids aren't gonna wanna talk about it. The most important thing, like of course, people who are there with these kids know that what the stakes are, the most important thing is they, is that they can talk about it.

So whatever we need to do to make it, you know, that we don't need to do this, like it's gonna be scary and terrible, don't do that. You can, because of course the other thing is, [01:35:00] is that there are kids who do experience, like, so for example, like this, the online stuff, for a lot of, for some kids at the beginning of it, it's very pleasurable because they're getting attention.

They, they think they're making friends, their experiences, they're making a friend, right? So then if you go in and say, like, these people, there's people out there, they're gonna try to, you know, snatch you or do these terrible things, it doesn't actually match their experience. So, so I really, I I, I try to really avoid it.

It's so hard. I think the other thing I'll say is like, so I practiced with my partner. I mean, I've practiced with other parents because cuz you kind, cuz I'm so scared of it, , that's the reason I make it scary is I'm terrified of it. And again, it's so easy for me to say when I'm working to say the truth, which is, you know, and I know that which is we cannot keep our kids a hundred percent safe.

And so if, if they're harmed again, what we want is it to know what we want is for them to come to us as soon as, you know, as soon as they can, as soon as it feels, you know? And we also know that a lot of us live with these experiences and that we can, you know, live a full [01:36:00] great life full of joy. And those also experience that kind of violence and trauma.

So I think obviously it's like talking about it, it's putting a lot of this stuff in front of them. It's like media literacy. And then it's the other thing Katie said, which is having other adults. So I also really, and I found, I dunno what your both experiences, I found actually the pandemic has been very hard for this because we used to have people over more so there were more people in my kids' life, trusted adults who they saw regularly that would come over for dinner every week.

And so they build that relationship and because we just stopped that for two years basically. It's harder to make those connections, particularly with a younger child, but I really feel like, so I'm like, one of my closest friends and colleagues is this person for my kid, and my kid would call them and, and you know, they know how to text them.

They don't have their own phone or anything, but they know, you know. And so I do think that's also really important because again, stuff may happen that they just don't wanna talk to us about. And so we want them to have someone else you know, and, and around consent. You want everyone [01:37:00] to be open about the fact that like, if you tell me something that makes me worried about your safety, I'm gonna, I'm gonna need to talk to your mom, but you and I will talk about how we'll do that.

Right? Because, because, because if kids, if kids disclose stuff and then they feel betrayed, it makes them less likely to do again. So we wanna make sure that we're trying to support them in a way that keeps them sharing.

[01:37:24] Arlene: I think that conversation around tricky people is really important, both for that potential abuse part and in those relationships as they get older too. Because I mean, like that, that tricky person could be also the boyfriend who's asking you to send nudes and you don't feel comfortable with it, but you're like, Well, is this what we do

You know, like, is this, you know, like, is this part of our relationship? But if, hopefully, if, you know, if they have good boundaries and have had tho have that confidence in knowing what feels comfortable for them, then maybe they'll be at that spot where they can [01:38:00] say, That's, that's not for me. So no

[01:38:02] Cory: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's where, that's why body autonomy is sort of central to sex

[01:38:07] Arlene: like, cuz those tricky people are not always strangers and they're not always out there. They, Yeah. They, sometimes the tricky people can also be, be the people that are, that we thought were the trusted people.

[01:38:20] Cory: mean, I'll share with you that, that the professionals also wanted me to really make it very clear that they're, they're very, they're rarely strangers, right? So you're much more likely to be harmed by someone you know. Right. And they really, I mean, like, they, they were really pushing me to make it more and more showing things in the family, because they said that's what happens.

It's hard to talk about, but that is what happens. So, yeah, so, so certainly not the stranger, Dan. I mean, hopefully most of us now know that stranger danger isn't effective and it isn't real. Right. So that the kids getting snatched thing doesn't, I mean, it happens, but it's very rare

[01:38:55] Arlene: Yeah. Compared to the other

[01:38:56] Cory: compared to the other

[01:38:57] Arlene: we need to spend more of our time, We worrying [01:39:00] about.

[01:39:00] Cory: Yeah.

[01:39:01] Caite: so real sorry. Real quick too, as someone who works in digital media for a living, I think the other thing about. Photos especially, is reminding kids that, A, they're out there forever. B, you have no control over who sees them once they're out there. And C, you have no control over how people react to them being out there.

So whether they say things about you or they share them or whatever, that there's zero control at that point. And that's, you know, it feels weird to say I would be a lot more okay with my kid just showing their body to somebody than to them sharing a digital image because only one person is seeing that,

[01:39:49] Cory: Yeah. I agree. What is different about growing up now because people used to that also, like, I'll show you yours. You show me mine, or, That wasn't the right way to say, but anyway, You know what? I'll show you mine. You [01:40:00] show me yours.

It, you know, so one person saw it and it wasn't recorded. Yeah. So, yeah, no, the stakes are much higher.

[01:40:08] Caite: All right. So we ask all of our guests, If you were going to dominate a category at the county fair, what would it be? And categories can be real or made up to ensure that you win.

[01:40:18] Cory: Right. Okay. So I appreciate that you actually gave me this question in advance because I, I'm not good at talking about things that I'm good at. So I did turn to my kid who hilariously, who won't I terrible singing voice, but this is a beautiful, I'm gonna share it because it was so sweet. They said that they actually said karaoke and then they said, because you have such a nice singing voice, , and I, and I literally can't, like, I can't, I can't hold it tune.

Yeah. I can't actually hold the

[01:40:44] Arlene: Have they, have they ever actually experienced you doing karaoke? Is this

[01:40:48] Cory: Well, they experience me singing all the time, but, but for the record about how our kids send us mixed messages, I'm not allowed to sing in public, like when we're walking down the street, it's totally

[01:40:56] Arlene: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Don't do

[01:40:57] Cory: But it's also their fault as I point out, [01:41:00] right? Because they, now I'm so, like, I listen to K-Pop all the time now because of them, and it's very catchy.

And then I start singing it and then I say, Well, it's your fault. And then of course they pull because they love loopholes. They say, Actually, it's your fault because you're the reason I'm I was born.

[01:41:15] Arlene: Yeah, it all goes back to

[01:41:16] Cory: all goes back to you. So yes, that and then I mean, I was gonna be before when I was trying to think about this, I mean, I was gonna say like if there was a conscious about curiosity, I'm very good at making people curious.

So if there was like a contest where it's like the most, the greatest curiosity generator I also love pie, so, but I don't think, I wouldn't dominate a pie eating contest. I would just enjoy it.

[01:41:36] Arlene: yeah. Pie appreciation.

[01:41:38] Cory: Oh, yes. Thank you. Pie appreciation.

[01:41:39] Arlene: There you go. So I think we'll go ahead and move into our cussing and discussing segment. We've registered for an online platform called Speak Pipe, where you can leave your cussing and discussing entries for us, and we'll play them on the show.

So go to speakpipe.com/barnyard language to leave us a voice memo. Or you can always send us an email at barnyard language@gmail.com and we will read it out for you. Katie, [01:42:00] we've discussed a lot already. What are you cussing and discussing this week?

[01:42:03] Caite: I had to think of something. I'm gonna cuss the fact that liking fall has become such a like stereotypical basic white girl thing, because I fucking love this time of year, it's getting cold. I pulled out my wool socks. I hate hot weather. I don't like shorts. I don't really like summer food. There's foliage, there's apple cider.

I don't really like pumpkin spice everything, but you know, you do you. But I got my wool socks on. It's cold out and it's crisp and it's beautiful. And there's pumpkins and mums and shit, and can make hearty stews. I just, I freaking love it, Arlene. I love it.

[01:42:46] Arlene: it's a stereotype, but it's true. It's great. It's the best season.

[01:42:49] Caite: But if you see me wearing a shirt that says like, Happy Fall y'all, or something, you'll know that I've just given into it.

So anyway, and again, if that's your thing, [01:43:00] awesome. Do it. Just lean. Hey Corey, what do you have to custom discuss?

[01:43:04] Cory: I need more information, so, Cause I need to be, So the Casa discuss

[01:43:09] Arlene: so it's either, Yeah, Either something that you, that has annoyed you this week or just a random topic that you wanna talk about. It's very

[01:43:16] Caite: just sort of a hot take on whatever you got.

[01:43:19] Cory: Oh my God. Oh God. You know what? Let's talk about the word gentleman. I was, when I went out for dinner last night. I know case is making a weird face. I, I don't know the last time either of you were called gentlemen, but, but it's, I, I went to a restaurant with a friend who's like a white gay guy. And so we were both red as white gay guys.

And they kept, Sorry, I just, excuse me. They kept calling us gentlemen. And honestly, because I'm not gay and I liked that, like, the fact that they were calling me gentlemen made me feel like they were misreading me, but they were misreading me into a different category altogether. So I didn't mind, but my friend did.

He was like, Are we gonna say something about it? [01:44:00] And we didn't say anything about it, but so I guess, yeah, if I'm cussing something, it's about like gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls just use people also, I got to live, I was lucky enough to live in Texas for five years, so I learned y'all, which is in fact a very, very useful word.

[01:44:18] Arlene: Y'all was my cussing and discussing one week because as a Canadian I want to use it. And yet when I try I feel like I, maybe I just need more practice, but

[01:44:27] Caite: It's definitely a practice thing, Arlene. I mean, other people in Iowa don't use it, but I do because yeah, I love how inclusive it.

[01:44:34] Cory: Word, yeah.

[01:44:36] Arlene: Okay. I just need to work on it, I guess.

[01:44:38] Cory: Yeah. Work on that. I having lived there, I, I agree. As also having grown up here, it feels like you're almost making fun of people or taking

[01:44:45] Arlene: that. You're faking an accent.

[01:44:46] Cory: Yes. But yeah, but once I lived there for five years now I feel like, oh, I can just say it. But I know people probably feel that way also. Yeah.

Yeah. Just stop thinking, stop caring what other people think. Use it.

[01:44:55] Arlene: Yeah. Yeah, go for it. All right, y'all. So mine is [01:45:00] slightly maybe a bit deeper, I don't know, but I was thinking the other day about how in parenting that your effort doesn't equal results and how annoying that is. That, that it's not like you can just be like, I'm gonna do my best job and then my kid is gonna be whatever.

I mean, like a rockstar, you know, like whatever you think your result is that you, you can't just do all the work and that you're gonna get what you think you're gonna get. I mean, hopefully you'll end up, I mean, we're, we've all got good kids, whatever. But yeah. That, that, it's not a straight line to success.

I'm sure that that's just life, but in parenting, sometimes it feels extra frustrating.

[01:45:43] Cory: It's true. I very much, I very much agree with that. And it's also so hard because work is often like incremental and you have to do it over and over and over again. Like, because I have a younger kid, it's like, just like whatever it is. If it's like wanting them to brush their teeth or wanting 'em to say, Please and thank you.

As it turns out, you have to tell 'em that like [01:46:00] a thousand times. .

[01:46:01] Arlene: As with, with all this stuff we talked about, right? That it's not a one conversation and it's done. So it's, Yeah, it's that. But then I suppose when you. Hopefully recognize the time when they, they said, Please and thank you without prompting or, you know, one of our big things in our house is it's, it's only helpful if the person wants your help.

So if I hear one of my kids asking, Do you need my help with that? Rather than jumping in and taking something outta their hands or fixing it for them, because as little people, I could see how frustrating that was to them when you would just take over. So I, I think we're finally getting to the point in our family where most of the time someone will say, Do you want my help before?

So, yeah, I just, You have to look for the little signs, I

[01:46:52] Cory: Yes.

[01:46:53] Caite: Arlene, that feels like one that should be on a t-shirt I am. I am here for that.

[01:46:59] Cory: Yeah. It's only helpful, [01:47:00] so it's only helpful if they want help.

[01:47:02] Arlene: Yeah. Because you, Yeah, just, just taking over

[01:47:06] Cory: Yeah.

[01:47:07] Arlene: makes them frustrated and then, and then the person doing the helping is like, what? I was just trying to help. It's, like unsolicited advice, right? I was just being helpful in telling you what I think you're doing

[01:47:19] Cory: right, . Exactly.

[01:47:22] Arlene: why are you so offended? right. I think that's us for today. I'm sure that we could talk forever, but thank you so much for Corey for joining us. It was a privilege to be able to talk to you and learn from you. If people want to learn more about your work and your books, where should they find you?

[01:47:38] Cory: they can, Well, so the books are kind of everywhere, but they can just find me at my website, which is corey silverberg.com. C o r y s i l v e r b e r g. Yeah. Yeah. And they're available in libraries and bookstores across North America. And thanks for having me. This was great.

[01:47:56] Arlene: Thank you very much. We didn't end up talking about that much farm stuff, but[01:48:00]

[01:48:00] Cory: I know, but a little bit,

[01:48:01] Arlene: yeah. Yeah.

[01:48:02] Cory: I learn, I learned some things.

[01:48:03] Arlene: There you go.

[01:48:04] Cory: Wait, can you just remind me, Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. It was live coverage. Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna go tell people about live coverage right now.

[01:48:10] Arlene: there. There you go. You can talk about artificial insemination too.

[01:48:13] Cory: Yes. And you can have, you can have me back and then we can, I can interview both of you.

[01:49:00]