Dr. Kim Ozano: Hello and welcome to Connecting Citizens to Science, a global

health podcast that brings together voices from around the world to explore

how research is being used to strengthen health systems and drive social change.

You're listening to episode two of our new mini-series, Backlash,

Resistance and the Path to Justice.

This series explores the growing pushback against gender equality globally and how

this is affecting the global majority, rolling back gender equity gains and

worsening health outcomes for all.

Across this six part mini-series, we'll be hearing from two long-term

gender justice programmes.

The first is Countering Backlash, Reclaiming Justice.

This is a six-year research initiative led by the Institute for Development

Studies and funded by SIDA.

It's generating new knowledge on patriarchal backlash and sporting

gender justice defenders in countries, including Bangladesh, Brazil,

India, Kenya, Lebanon, and Uganda.

The second programme is called Our Voices, Our Futures, a Global South led

initiative funded by the Embassy of the Netherlands and coordinated by CERA, and

it is working to amplify the voices of structurally silenced women in Bangladesh,

India, Kenya, Lebanon, Sudan, and Uganda.

The episodes are co-hosted by researchers from these programmes, and each episode

shares reflections from people on the front lines of gender justice struggles.

In today's episode, we will be focusing on how gender backlash

impacts access to basic rights for marginalised groups, and in this

case, it's sex workers in Bangladesh.

We'll hear how this backlash affects their access to health and justice services,

and how stigma and discrimination continue to shape their everyday lives.

We will begin the episode with a story of a woman working as

a sex worker in Bangladesh.

And her words are spoken by a member of the Our Voices, Our Futures

team to preserve her anonymity, and we use the alias Afsana.

Following Afsana's narrative, I will be joined by two guests working at

the intersection of gender justice, legal reform, and communication.

Our first guest, Nazia Zebin, who you'll also hear as a

co-host in upcoming episodes.

Nazia is a communications manager at BRAC, James P. Grant School of

Public Health, and has over a decade of experience in social justice work.

She is an independent trainer and consultant on organisational strategy,

gender, digital safety, and diversity.

We're also joined by Kamrun Nahar, who is a director at Naripokkho, a leading

human rights organisation in Bangladesh.

Kamrun is a human rights lawyer who has spent more than 30 years supporting

women and marginalised groups through legal aid, advocacy and training.

Her work focuses on shifting discriminatory norms and policies and

ensuring justice is accessible for all.

So let's begin the episode by hearing from Afsana.

Uh, I'm Ra Jon.

We work with sex workers.

Our sex worker sisters face many forms of abuse when they come to us

and show that they have been abused, we feel that this must be protested.

We want to speak out and take a stand against it.

When I worked in the HIV programme, these issues were not as prevalent because

many NGOs were active at that time.

It is no longer the same.

A sex worker's life is full of pain.

This is because women only entered this profession under duress, due

to hunger, the need to educate their children and facing many challenges,

they end up in this line of work.

They need money.

If they can't find other means to survive, they are forced into this profession.

In my opinion, if they received legal and societal support, they

could carry out their work safely.

Even when they live in a home, they require social security in

going about their lives and doing their work, they need protection.

Since the fall of the previous government in August, 2024 violence against sex

workers has increased significantly.

They can't go to their usual spots for work, and their

livelihoods are now in danger.

The current political parties claim they are working for the country's

development, but is that really true?

We're not receiving any legal support, and we have been unable to correspond

with the current administration.

Under the previous government, we were able to communicate through various

NGOs and advocacy organisations.

We were able to convey that this is the profession chosen by sex

workers, and through it, they support their children and families.

But this is no longer the case under the current government, which

is why sex workers are constantly subjected to violence and abuse.

To obtain legal support, we must all work together.

We need to clearly communicate that this is our sex worker sisters profession.

This is how they earn a living.

What else will they do if not this?

This is their source of income.

Without societal support, they will continue to be targets of violence.

They also need access to health services.

Just because they're sex workers, does that mean they

should be denied healthcare?

They need it just like anyone else.

There are no mental health services available now.

Previously, they could go to certain NGOs for help.

If they were upset or traumatised, they would receive counselling.

That's not available anymore.

Dr. Kim Ozano: Thank you very much to Afsana for sharing her story

and to the Our Voices, Our Futures team, for helping us hear it.

Her experience really highlights the urgent need to recognise sex

workers' rights and the consequences when support systems are taken away.

To explore these issues further, i'm now joined by Nazia Zebin and Kamrun

Nahar, who are two women engaged in the fight for gender justice in Bangladesh.

We're really happy to have you here with us today on the podcast, and

thank you so much for joining us for such an important conversation.

Before we get into discussing Afsana's narrative, Nazia, perhaps

you could tell us a bit about your work in gender justice.

Sure.

I'm currently engaging as a coordinator for two long-term programmes.

So, one is the Countering Backlash, Reclaim Justice programme.

Another one is the Our Voices, Our Futures Programme.

Countering Backlash aims to create new knowledge around patriarchal

backlash and also aims to support the women rights organisations and other

gender justice defenders on how they can counter gender backlash better.

And this programme is being funded by Sida, whereas the Our Voices, Our Future

programme is a Global South led initiative that works to amplify the voices of

structurally silenced women across Bangladesh and five other countries.

This initiative is funded by the Dutch Ministry of Foreign

Affairs and coordinated by CERA.

I'm extremely passionate about human rights and diversity and inclusion, and

that is also like a key reason why I'm so excited to be a part of this podcast.

Dr. Kim Ozano: Thanks so much.

And Kamrun tell us a bit about yourself.

I started my journey as a lawyer from 1994.

I try to remove or address the discrimination which is

happening in our everyday life.

I have got opportunities to involve with many advocacy level

work so that we can eliminate the discrimination and reform policy

Dr. Kim Ozano: So, I understand that you've had a listen to

Afsana's narrative and her story.

What are your reflections on that and is this something you hear often?

There are so many Afsana's around us.

Her demand is so little; safety, security, health service.

These are so minimum, but they are getting minimum services from the state.

So, I have that realisation that they're excluded from society.

They're excluded from the laws.

They're invisible.

We just heard one story, and there are so many other stories, and

there are certain similarities in all the stories, the story of social exclusion.

Being excluded, being not heard, and I think that pain is very real.

The rising backlash against women, against sex workers, against all marginalised

communities that has been rising in the country for for several years,

and what I'm thinking about right now is how we can work together, like

all of these groups who are being impacted by the rising backlash, how

all of these groups can work together.

Dr. Kim Ozano: Thank you so much.

So, we heard in the narrative as well that the spaces for advocacy and for

activism are closing, and the funding for organisations are smaller, so

the services are reducing further.

So, Kamrun, what does that mean for your practice and for changing the existing

situation or resisting this backlash?

In our country, sex work is not illegal.

It is legal, but there is some confusion.

It is legal, but it is prohibited by constitution.

So, what terminology are we using ? Because as per our law,

if someone can choose his or her profession, it is welcome by law.

But when it is related to women, it is not supported by law.

Decriminalisation is important.

Dr. Kim Ozano: Okay, So, there's real work towards clear policies and legal framings

to protect sex workers and their rights.

when they learned that she's a sex work, they denied to give services.

We need to restructure or strategically think how will we ensure that they

will do their profession safely with dignity and will get support

as a citizen, not as a women.

Dr. Kim Ozano: I think what I'm hearing is that there's a discrimination, a stigma

so that the health services are reacting to that stigmatisation and limiting their

freedom and rights for health services.

Nazia, is that what you're seeing in your work as well?

Yeah, definitely.

But when, when you think about HIV the most vulnerable, one of the most

vulnerable communities we think about are sex workers . While that may be

true, it also stigmatises some of the framing of how you talk about sex

workers, a vulnerable community to HIV.

So, that's very important.

Dr. Kim Ozano: So, in terms of mental health services and mental health

support, Afsana talks about these specifically and how women need these.

They're exposed to trauma, and we've heard the devastating impact of violence

on their profession and on their rights.

Could you talk to us a little bit about that mental health service

provision and what it means?

The mental health service is not available or not easily

accessible but there are opportunities.

The Government has a hotline on trauma counselling.

Mental health counselling can be arranged, but basic medical, basic food, when

I am not getting these basic things, then mental health is, I think, the

second layer or third layer, um, need.

Yes.

Um, Afsana Apa rightly pointed out that these services is...

yes.

Is shrinking.

Shrinking.

The importance of mental health is also not recognised.

And mental health services are very expensive.

There are initiatives, cyber initiatives as well adding to what Kamrun Apa has

shared about the government initiative.

But there are not a lot of free helplines and if you have to meet with

a professional is extremely expensive, and it is only contained within Dhaka.

And there are like no mental health professionals who

are, who is outside of Dhaka.

There are like big cities, there are like other health professionals, they have like

good hospitals and everything, but mental health providers are not really there.

So, yeah, like by itself is a very exclusionary service so, there is a

lot of scope for improvement overall.

Dr. Kim Ozano: It sounds like, there's a lot more training and distribution

needed for mental health practitioners, but also, how do you get beyond this

need for survival of basic food, of basic safety before you can address trauma?

So, it sounds like there's quite a long way to go and, making sure that sex

workers have access to that support.

Right now, in Bangladesh, you're seeing a political shift, and we can

hear Afsana talk about that shift and how it's impacting sex workers.

Do you have any comments on how you see this going, or your concerns, and

how your field of gender justice can push back against the changes that

are coming from that political shift.

Actually, during the shifting period,

many things actually happen.

Not only on sex worker, many women related issue also happened.

So, we need to work more coordinately so that we can react together.

Some example I can share, the reform commission has prepared their report,

their reform proposal and the sex workers rights issue has addressed

by Women's Reform Commissions.

And it's also addressed by labour, labour reform commissions also.

And what the commissions proposal is to advocate for the worker

sites and there is a backlash.

So many backlash on it.

But we have to stick, we have to...

we have to be strong.

...we have to be strong in this.

We have to work with the connecting ministry, connecting others lawmakers

because nowadays there is no parliament.

So, if we can work with closely with the policy makers, if we got some positive

intervention from the policy makers, it'll help to work closely with this issue.

And also it'll help us to be united.

Dr. Kim Ozano: Do either of you have an example of the type of backlash?

So you said there's many things that are happening, do you have a, an, an example?

One example, was female traveller, with her relatives on a beach

at midnight, , some people, they organise and they attack the girl and say why you

were here and with this type of dressup?

And these things in my opinion, it's not new, but the articulating, the

threatening, the backlash is new to us.

People are thinking that they can do anything against women, that is alarming.

I'll just add to what Kamrun Apa said.

It was also about them naming them as sex workers.

So, that's how they validated their attack on the girls who were out in the

beach at night because it was the framing of sex worker, like 'she must be a sex

worker because she is out at night wearing clothes like a Western casual wear'.

So, she must be a sex worker and it is justified that we are attacking her.

Right now because of the growing gender backlash, it's not hidden.

It's not subtle.

It's like completely out there.

It is very much on the digital media.

We see anybody who is speaking for basic women's rights, they

are being tagged as sex worker.

They're being tagged as, I don't know, like a lot of like derogatory

words and things like that.

So, that is very prominent right now.

And of course, as Kamrun Apa said, when something has happened, like

an incident has happened, the government is not being proactive.

It's reactive.

When something happens, and there's like a lot of conversation around it, there

are people who are asking the government like, why have you allowed this to happen?

Only then, they are taking action.

And it also very indicative of the resources that the person

who's being attacked has.

So, if the person belongs to a certain class where she does not

have access to this network, then people are not really backing her up.

But if she belongs to a certain class where she can access resources, and

she is getting the kind of backup that she requires to get the justice.

So, we can see how discrimination is also very built in into

the justice system itself.

And it's very class based.

It's very resource based.

It's also based on geographic location.

Are in an urban area, are a rural area, and they're like a lot lot of examples.

These examples are increasing in numbers and also the kind of mediums

that we are seeing that's been happening with the digital media

currently leading at the front.

Dr. Kim Ozano: Okay.

So, it sounds very much like language and labels are being used to frame

and justify abuses, which aren't being followed up because of a lack of

resources and because of this backlash.

So, we've reached the end of the episode.

Thank you so much for your contributions for helping us to understand the situation

in Bangladesh for marginalised groups and we're very grateful for that.

What lessons can we, as the global community take forward for gender justice?

We need to change our mindset.

We should create an environment so that they can overcome the challenges.

We need to work together and we need to research what health services are needed.

And what strategy will help them more.

It should be articulate and it should be accessible, equitable, and easy.

Dr. Kim Ozano: So, very much looking at changing our mindset.

Look at the challenges faced by sex workers and women, voice them and really

raise and amplify those advocacy efforts.

One last piece of advice to take forward, please, Nazia.

Advice, I feel that I still have a long way to go to provide advice.

But then again, what I do believe in is listening from the people who are

being affected by the issues directly.

So, we are to listen more of these stories from people like Afsana Apa other sex

workers, other activists within the sex workers community who are leading their

own initiatives, and also hear from their experiences how we can empower them.

What are the resources that they need, which we have that we can share with them.

So, I think that's one takeaway that I can share as somebody who has

been involved with a lot multiple layers of activism in different lens.

Dr. Kim Ozano: So, really listen to people with experience, activists

and join them in bringing resources to help them advocate for change.

Well, that brings us to the end of this episode.

We've heard how structural discrimination, shrinking civic spaces and political

shifts are threatening the health, safety, and rights of sex workers

in Bangladesh, and how women like Afsana are standing up and demanding

to be seen, heard, and protected.

So, thank you so much to our guests for helping us to understand how these

issues connect with the wider struggles for gender justice and legal reform.

If you found today's conversation insightful, make sure you subscribe

to Connecting Citizens to Science wherever you get your podcasts.

And don't miss out on the next four episodes, next time we'll be

examining the role of allyship.

Whether you're a researcher, policymaker, or practitioner, knowing how to

engage with allies in meaningful non performative ways can be critical to

advance gender justice in your field.

So, join us for that conversation and in the meantime, stay connected.