1 00:00:00,458 --> 00:00:02,252 Ethics is always within a story. 2 00:00:02,252 --> 00:00:04,170 So which story are you living out? 3 00:00:04,170 --> 00:00:07,674 Are you living out the narrative that the world says leads 4 00:00:07,674 --> 00:00:12,053 to prosperity, fulfillment, and happiness to the good life? 5 00:00:12,595 --> 00:00:15,598 Or are you going to adopt Jesus’ story, as your own? 6 00:00:15,682 --> 00:00:20,895 And only within that story can we make sense of his teaching, 7 00:00:21,146 --> 00:00:24,149 because you can't separate the teaching from the teacher. 8 00:00:24,858 --> 00:00:26,192 And this is really important. 9 00:00:26,192 --> 00:00:29,154 Jesus didn't teach some universal truths 10 00:00:29,487 --> 00:00:34,075 that smart people contemplate and go, oh yes, that's right. 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,995 Turn the other cheek. That's a good strategy. 12 00:00:36,995 --> 00:00:40,915 No, we don't really understand what that means, apart from who Christ is 13 00:00:40,915 --> 00:00:41,708 and how he lived. 14 00:00:41,708 --> 00:00:42,459 That out. 15 00:00:47,881 --> 00:00:48,381 welcome, 16 00:00:48,381 --> 00:00:51,509 Charles, to Anabaptist Perspectives podcast. 17 00:00:52,343 --> 00:00:55,513 And yeah, today we're going to be reflecting on, 18 00:00:56,556 --> 00:00:59,934 some of the challenge that was presented to the church 19 00:00:59,934 --> 00:01:04,064 in this age by Stanley Hauerwas, some of his writings, and, 20 00:01:04,898 --> 00:01:08,151 especially this collection that you worked on, helped 21 00:01:08,151 --> 00:01:11,154 put together called Jesus Changes Everything. 22 00:01:12,113 --> 00:01:15,617 But yeah, as an introduction to that, I'd like to know a little bit, 23 00:01:16,284 --> 00:01:20,789 who you are and how how Hauerwas has influence you personally. 24 00:01:20,997 --> 00:01:24,834 I'm going to read a little quote, that you wrote 25 00:01:24,834 --> 00:01:28,671 in the introduction to this volume and let you go from there. 26 00:01:29,339 --> 00:01:33,468 So you wrote Stanley Hauerwas and his writings were a large reason 27 00:01:33,468 --> 00:01:37,347 why 30 years ago, I left a professorship at a seminary 28 00:01:37,847 --> 00:01:41,142 and moved 2000 miles with my wife to join the Bruderhof, 29 00:01:41,851 --> 00:01:43,937 a Christian community that shares possessions 30 00:01:43,937 --> 00:01:46,940 in common in accordance with the sermon on the Mount. 31 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:49,609 Disillusioned with Christianity as usual, we wanted to live like 32 00:01:49,609 --> 00:01:53,071 the first Christians where no one was in need and everyone belonged. 33 00:01:54,239 --> 00:01:57,242 So yeah, tell us a little more. 34 00:01:57,742 --> 00:01:58,827 Well, good to be with you. 35 00:01:58,827 --> 00:02:00,829 Marlin, thank you for this opportunity 36 00:02:00,829 --> 00:02:04,374 to share about our latest publication from Plough. 37 00:02:04,874 --> 00:02:07,377 It's, good to be with you. 38 00:02:07,377 --> 00:02:11,589 And, yeah, I can tell you a little bit more about my background. 39 00:02:11,673 --> 00:02:14,676 I became a Christian in the Jesus movement in California. 40 00:02:15,301 --> 00:02:19,139 And, my introduction to the faith was, by and large, 41 00:02:19,180 --> 00:02:22,642 from within an evangelical context. 42 00:02:23,434 --> 00:02:27,564 But as I grew in my faith and, immersed myself in the scriptures, 43 00:02:28,064 --> 00:02:30,775 I came to the awareness of how, 44 00:02:30,775 --> 00:02:35,321 personalized, hyper individualized and spiritualized. 45 00:02:35,780 --> 00:02:39,033 The evangelical perspective was, on the faith. 46 00:02:39,492 --> 00:02:45,081 And, this, caused me to have to take stock of my faith 47 00:02:45,498 --> 00:02:51,588 and ask myself, is all there, to the message of Jesus, of salvation. 48 00:02:52,922 --> 00:02:54,841 And, eternal 49 00:02:54,841 --> 00:02:58,553 life in some other, by and by. 50 00:02:59,053 --> 00:03:02,682 And, I began reflecting and reading more 51 00:03:03,016 --> 00:03:08,605 and, and I came across, Stanley Hauerwas’ writings at the time. 52 00:03:08,605 --> 00:03:11,232 I was a doctoral student. 53 00:03:11,232 --> 00:03:14,903 I had finished seminary, and I was, doctoral student, 54 00:03:15,361 --> 00:03:19,699 at the University of Colorado in Boulder, studying ethics and public policy. 55 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,911 And, I had great hopes for that program. 56 00:03:22,911 --> 00:03:28,166 But after reading, Hauerwas’ early works, I began to realize that the liberal 57 00:03:28,166 --> 00:03:32,545 ideal of objective, universal ethics, 58 00:03:32,545 --> 00:03:37,258 was, based on a myth of, freedom. 59 00:03:37,884 --> 00:03:40,887 And this idea of neutrality. 60 00:03:40,887 --> 00:03:43,556 And so, I delved more into his writings. 61 00:03:43,556 --> 00:03:49,979 And when his book, The Peaceable Kingdom came out, I was thoroughly liberated from 62 00:03:49,979 --> 00:03:55,318 this idea that you can only do ethics from a rational, objective point of view. 63 00:03:55,693 --> 00:03:58,863 And, so I actually left that program and then went on 64 00:03:58,863 --> 00:04:01,866 to, study, theology. 65 00:04:01,991 --> 00:04:06,663 And in that process, I became convinced 66 00:04:07,038 --> 00:04:12,627 that, the, the nature of the Christian life was such 67 00:04:12,877 --> 00:04:16,881 that it had to be lived within a communal or community context. 68 00:04:17,507 --> 00:04:22,679 And, so my wife and I started seeking more about that. 69 00:04:22,679 --> 00:04:26,724 And after an attempt at an inner city ministry and community 70 00:04:26,724 --> 00:04:31,104 and in Denver, which failed in the end, 71 00:04:31,437 --> 00:04:36,859 we had come across, the Bruderhof and the publication of The Plough, 72 00:04:37,485 --> 00:04:41,072 and we started exploring, that community. 73 00:04:41,489 --> 00:04:44,742 And eventually we joined, and shortly thereafter, 74 00:04:45,243 --> 00:04:50,498 I, was assigned a task to work in our small publishing house, The Plough 75 00:04:50,498 --> 00:04:54,794 And it was then I started up a correspondence with with Stanley. 76 00:04:55,336 --> 00:04:59,132 Who supported our efforts over the last, 30 years. 77 00:04:59,674 --> 00:05:03,219 And, so he's been very influential in my journey, 78 00:05:03,553 --> 00:05:05,346 and he's been a great support. 79 00:05:05,346 --> 00:05:07,473 To us as a community. 80 00:05:07,473 --> 00:05:08,641 And our publishing efforts. 81 00:05:09,934 --> 00:05:11,102 So it was interesting. 82 00:05:11,102 --> 00:05:12,228 The first. 83 00:05:12,228 --> 00:05:15,398 The first kind of stage you mentioned was philosophical. 84 00:05:16,733 --> 00:05:19,736 Like you say, you were in a public policy program. 85 00:05:20,153 --> 00:05:22,822 And so 86 00:05:22,822 --> 00:05:24,574 kind of first stage was leaving that 87 00:05:24,574 --> 00:05:27,702 and then eventually went further into, 88 00:05:28,536 --> 00:05:30,913 I guess, intentional Christian community. 89 00:05:30,913 --> 00:05:33,750 That's right. I had gone to seminary. 90 00:05:33,750 --> 00:05:36,461 And actually, 91 00:05:36,461 --> 00:05:39,881 eventually went back to that seminary and taught for about ten years. 92 00:05:40,340 --> 00:05:45,428 And, what Hauerwas convinced me of 93 00:05:45,428 --> 00:05:49,307 is that you can't do ethics apart from Christ and the story of Christ. 94 00:05:50,099 --> 00:05:54,729 But then, he also argued that you can't really, understand 95 00:05:54,729 --> 00:05:58,274 who Jesus is apart from Israel, the people of God. 96 00:05:58,775 --> 00:06:01,486 And so you can't do ethics apart from the church. 97 00:06:01,486 --> 00:06:05,323 And and so I had to grapple with, well, what church, which church? 98 00:06:05,615 --> 00:06:10,328 The, psychotherapeutic church, the social justice church, 99 00:06:10,620 --> 00:06:14,957 the seeker friendly church, the Bible believing church, which church? 100 00:06:15,583 --> 00:06:18,586 And, after really grappling with that, 101 00:06:19,003 --> 00:06:21,839 none of those options were viable for my wife and I. 102 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,260 And we we wanted to live out an alternative, community. 103 00:06:27,095 --> 00:06:30,723 As depicted, in the scriptures, 104 00:06:30,765 --> 00:06:34,477 and described, and that's 105 00:06:34,477 --> 00:06:39,357 what propelled us to a thicker, kind of life of community with others. 106 00:06:40,942 --> 00:06:41,484 Yeah. 107 00:06:41,484 --> 00:06:43,069 Thank you. 108 00:06:43,069 --> 00:06:43,653 Yeah. I'm. 109 00:06:43,653 --> 00:06:47,865 I'm anxious to to dive into some of the, the content of this book. 110 00:06:47,865 --> 00:06:51,411 Jesus changes everything and that picture of discipleship and so on. 111 00:06:51,953 --> 00:06:54,956 But also I'd like to ask a few, 112 00:06:55,665 --> 00:06:59,627 kind of questions about Stanley Hauerwas, 113 00:07:00,670 --> 00:07:02,713 you know, this enormously well known 114 00:07:02,713 --> 00:07:05,716 figure and. 115 00:07:06,175 --> 00:07:07,093 Like you said, he supported 116 00:07:07,093 --> 00:07:10,096 your publishing efforts at the Bruderhof. 117 00:07:10,847 --> 00:07:13,850 A lot of his themes on violence. 118 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,770 And things like that. 119 00:07:17,770 --> 00:07:20,773 Even the way he talks about church sound very familiar to, 120 00:07:21,441 --> 00:07:23,901 you know, most Anabaptist groups. 121 00:07:23,901 --> 00:07:26,904 At the same time, 122 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,783 2001 time magazine named him 123 00:07:31,701 --> 00:07:34,620 America's best theologian. 124 00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:37,540 And the stuff 125 00:07:37,540 --> 00:07:40,543 he advocated does not seem very American, at least 126 00:07:41,002 --> 00:07:41,919 as I read it. 127 00:07:41,919 --> 00:07:44,922 So any backstory on that? 128 00:07:44,964 --> 00:07:47,675 Well, I think that's quite ironic, actually. 129 00:07:47,675 --> 00:07:51,137 You know, I think it was Dorothy Day 130 00:07:51,971 --> 00:07:54,849 who said that, a radical. 131 00:07:54,849 --> 00:07:57,852 The way you tame a radical in the faith is to, 132 00:07:57,894 --> 00:08:00,938 name them a saint. 133 00:08:02,064 --> 00:08:05,526 And I think this was one way, 134 00:08:05,902 --> 00:08:11,449 the American mainstream, tried to tame Stanley Hauerwas. 135 00:08:11,449 --> 00:08:15,912 He often says that the, word 136 00:08:15,912 --> 00:08:18,915 or term best is not a theological category. 137 00:08:19,749 --> 00:08:21,459 So. So why was he picked on? 138 00:08:21,459 --> 00:08:26,297 Well, the fact of the matter is, is that his writings had become so influential. 139 00:08:26,714 --> 00:08:30,593 And they actually dislodged a lot of people 140 00:08:30,593 --> 00:08:34,388 from the liberal attempt to justify 141 00:08:34,388 --> 00:08:37,391 Christianity in a Western context. 142 00:08:37,433 --> 00:08:39,977 And, many, 143 00:08:39,977 --> 00:08:43,397 many young students from, all across the, 144 00:08:43,606 --> 00:08:46,901 the spectrum, including a good number of evangelical students, 145 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,029 came to study at Duke 146 00:08:50,029 --> 00:08:52,990 purposely just to study with what Stanley Hauerwas. 147 00:08:53,324 --> 00:08:57,245 And and one of the reasons why that is, is that, 148 00:08:57,245 --> 00:09:00,915 I think the evangelical subculture was beginning to implode, 149 00:09:01,791 --> 00:09:05,503 that this pietistic vertical notion of, 150 00:09:05,836 --> 00:09:10,508 Christianity, was no longer, viable. 151 00:09:10,841 --> 00:09:14,595 And, it committed Bible believing Christians 152 00:09:14,595 --> 00:09:17,640 believe that the gospel had impact on the here and now. 153 00:09:18,015 --> 00:09:22,311 And there is a social dimension of Jesus's, message. 154 00:09:23,104 --> 00:09:25,815 And yet they were also, allergic 155 00:09:25,815 --> 00:09:28,901 to, the politicization of the faith. 156 00:09:29,193 --> 00:09:31,153 So you had the Moral majority, 157 00:09:31,153 --> 00:09:35,575 and the beginning of the politicizing of the evangelical faith. 158 00:09:35,575 --> 00:09:37,952 And there was an increasing number of, 159 00:09:38,953 --> 00:09:40,413 evangelicals that were not 160 00:09:40,413 --> 00:09:44,083 satisfied with that, culture war approach. 161 00:09:44,417 --> 00:09:50,089 And again, Stanley, was giving, language an, a paradigm in which to live out 162 00:09:50,089 --> 00:09:53,593 a social gospel that was rooted 163 00:09:53,926 --> 00:09:56,762 in Scripture and centered on Christ. 164 00:09:56,762 --> 00:10:00,391 And, no longer was faith to be just privatized, 165 00:10:00,808 --> 00:10:03,603 character mattered, but so did 166 00:10:03,603 --> 00:10:06,897 community, because you could not really grow 167 00:10:06,897 --> 00:10:10,943 into the character of Christ apart from a community. 168 00:10:11,402 --> 00:10:14,530 So this attracted, quite a number. 169 00:10:14,864 --> 00:10:20,161 And of course, he was controversial among fellow theologians and academics 170 00:10:20,161 --> 00:10:23,664 because he was questioning the fundamental presuppositions 171 00:10:24,165 --> 00:10:27,418 of what the academy, had been, 172 00:10:27,418 --> 00:10:30,421 working with for a long time. 173 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:33,674 So he attracted a lot of attention. 174 00:10:33,674 --> 00:10:36,677 And I think that's why time, you know, dubbed him 175 00:10:36,677 --> 00:10:40,014 as, America's best theologian. 176 00:10:41,057 --> 00:10:41,307 Yeah. 177 00:10:41,307 --> 00:10:44,185 And ironically, that 178 00:10:44,185 --> 00:10:47,271 that piece came out in September of 2001. 179 00:10:47,271 --> 00:10:48,981 Like, 180 00:10:48,981 --> 00:10:51,984 right when the Twin Towers 181 00:10:52,526 --> 00:10:55,529 came down and America responded with, 182 00:10:56,364 --> 00:10:59,575 let's just say a response that was not nonviolent by any means. And. 183 00:11:00,534 --> 00:11:03,663 Yes. And he he, vehemently reacted to that 184 00:11:03,663 --> 00:11:08,626 and rebuked the, automatic retaliatory, 185 00:11:08,626 --> 00:11:12,129 measures that our country engaged in. 186 00:11:12,463 --> 00:11:15,466 So, he was also very prophetic. 187 00:11:15,466 --> 00:11:18,886 So if if the time magazine had 188 00:11:18,886 --> 00:11:22,390 said the most prophetic theologian, 189 00:11:22,973 --> 00:11:28,187 of of the century, that would have been a little bit more befitting. 190 00:11:28,187 --> 00:11:30,648 Although I think Stanley, knowing him 191 00:11:30,648 --> 00:11:33,859 quite well, would have also reacted against that, 192 00:11:33,859 --> 00:11:38,155 because he does not see himself or try to be in any way a prophet. 193 00:11:38,155 --> 00:11:42,326 He just seeks to speak what he understands to be the truth. 194 00:11:43,786 --> 00:11:44,120 Yeah. 195 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,123 No, thanks for sketching that out. 196 00:11:48,332 --> 00:11:51,293 I'm curious. 197 00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:54,088 Do we have any way of sensing, like, 198 00:11:54,088 --> 00:11:57,174 kind of how wide the impact has has gone? 199 00:11:57,174 --> 00:12:00,177 Has this affected American Christianity? Like it? 200 00:12:00,177 --> 00:12:03,139 So it clearly made a big impact in at least certain 201 00:12:03,139 --> 00:12:06,267 intellectual or academic spheres. 202 00:12:06,350 --> 00:12:10,438 People found a way of talking about things that was helpful. 203 00:12:11,063 --> 00:12:13,566 It seems to me like, 204 00:12:13,566 --> 00:12:16,569 you know, some of these Anabaptist ideas have become 205 00:12:17,319 --> 00:12:21,115 much more popular in American Christianity or certain segments of the church. 206 00:12:21,323 --> 00:12:24,326 Yeah, I don't know. What are your thoughts? 207 00:12:24,535 --> 00:12:29,665 Well, Yes, I, I, I think we can trace, 208 00:12:29,749 --> 00:12:33,669 How was his influence? 209 00:12:33,669 --> 00:12:35,337 In some direct ways. 210 00:12:35,337 --> 00:12:38,632 I think that the new monastic movement, 211 00:12:39,258 --> 00:12:42,470 back in the early 2000s, 212 00:12:42,970 --> 00:12:47,099 they were heavily influenced by Hauerwas. 213 00:12:47,475 --> 00:12:52,521 And Shane Claiborne quotes him, profusely. 214 00:12:53,022 --> 00:12:56,525 And, and and part of that was, 215 00:12:56,525 --> 00:13:01,822 gathering people in a more disciplined rule governed, 216 00:13:02,156 --> 00:13:05,785 meaning a set of disciplines and practices, 217 00:13:06,285 --> 00:13:08,954 a new set of, a living, 218 00:13:08,954 --> 00:13:12,041 a liturgical life in community together. 219 00:13:13,083 --> 00:13:14,502 And so I think, 220 00:13:14,502 --> 00:13:17,630 there was an influence in the mainline, 221 00:13:18,088 --> 00:13:21,592 tradition, which I, I grew up in, in a mainline 222 00:13:21,592 --> 00:13:26,096 church, but, have not really been involved, but, 223 00:13:26,096 --> 00:13:31,101 movements, like fresh expressions often refer to Stanley's writings. 224 00:13:31,185 --> 00:13:34,313 So, 225 00:13:34,313 --> 00:13:39,109 and of course, among evangelicals, as I mentioned, so, 226 00:13:39,401 --> 00:13:42,154 I think that's had some a hands and feet, 227 00:13:42,154 --> 00:13:45,241 in fact, this is one of the complaints against Hauerwas 228 00:13:45,241 --> 00:13:50,037 because many people have been influenced by him and made significant changes. 229 00:13:51,497 --> 00:13:56,001 And, and in a way, have decidedly turned 230 00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:59,213 either away from the institutional church 231 00:13:59,421 --> 00:14:02,049 or call it into question. 232 00:14:02,049 --> 00:14:06,011 They find out that Stanley is a relatively staid 233 00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:10,516 individual who is a part of a mainline church. 234 00:14:10,891 --> 00:14:14,103 And he doesn't live particularly radical, 235 00:14:14,103 --> 00:14:18,732 not like the red letter Christians or, many 236 00:14:18,732 --> 00:14:22,611 who are attracted to, like Shane Claiborne early. 237 00:14:22,611 --> 00:14:26,115 He, he, so, some have wondered, you know, 238 00:14:26,115 --> 00:14:29,910 you write these things and, and how exactly do you live them out? 239 00:14:30,077 --> 00:14:33,247 But, that's another subject. 240 00:14:33,247 --> 00:14:36,792 I don't think any of us fully live out, what we confess, 241 00:14:37,251 --> 00:14:40,170 but, he's the first to admit that, 242 00:14:40,170 --> 00:14:43,674 he, doesn't fully put into practice 243 00:14:43,674 --> 00:14:47,928 or has not found a way to fully realize the implications of his own teaching. 244 00:14:50,097 --> 00:14:50,347 Yeah. 245 00:14:50,347 --> 00:14:53,350 I mean, the one point on that I do want to. 246 00:14:53,392 --> 00:14:54,602 The follow up. 247 00:14:54,602 --> 00:14:58,188 You know, he writes some pretty strong things about, you know, 248 00:14:58,188 --> 00:15:01,233 there's no second generation Christians. 249 00:15:03,485 --> 00:15:06,071 Involuntary discipleship and all of that. 250 00:15:06,071 --> 00:15:08,282 And in 251 00:15:08,282 --> 00:15:11,994 in my tradition, we would tie that idea pretty closely 252 00:15:11,994 --> 00:15:15,998 to, you know, baptism is upon your own confession of faith. 253 00:15:15,998 --> 00:15:19,418 We don't bring anybody into the church automatically and so on. 254 00:15:19,835 --> 00:15:22,796 But he, from what I know, grew up 255 00:15:22,796 --> 00:15:25,799 and remained in traditions where, 256 00:15:26,759 --> 00:15:29,386 you know, infant baptism was the norm. 257 00:15:29,386 --> 00:15:32,389 And I guess he also has a very strong sense of, 258 00:15:33,015 --> 00:15:36,018 you know, bringing up children as Christians and so on. 259 00:15:36,352 --> 00:15:38,729 Yeah. 260 00:15:38,729 --> 00:15:41,106 I'm a little curious how he puts them together. 261 00:15:41,106 --> 00:15:42,149 Obviously he does. 262 00:15:42,149 --> 00:15:45,861 But, you know, for some of us, those things jar a little bit. 263 00:15:47,321 --> 00:15:47,780 Yeah. 264 00:15:47,780 --> 00:15:50,908 You know, I'm not Stanley Hauerwas. 265 00:15:50,908 --> 00:15:54,954 I'm not sure if he's fully put it together, Or not. 266 00:15:55,496 --> 00:15:58,165 It's interesting. 267 00:15:58,165 --> 00:16:02,711 I think one of the reasons why he has remained, 268 00:16:03,379 --> 00:16:06,340 in the mainline is that 269 00:16:06,632 --> 00:16:10,177 he is as a strong allergic reaction 270 00:16:10,177 --> 00:16:13,180 to any kind of ecclesial sectarianism. 271 00:16:15,057 --> 00:16:19,269 He really believes in the unity of the church 272 00:16:19,812 --> 00:16:23,774 and that we should seek for a greater unity, in the church, 273 00:16:24,692 --> 00:16:27,778 the Anglican tradition in which he is part of Methodist 274 00:16:28,070 --> 00:16:31,573 previous gives wiggle room 275 00:16:31,573 --> 00:16:34,576 for a greater sense of unity. 276 00:16:34,868 --> 00:16:36,495 And so I think, 277 00:16:36,495 --> 00:16:40,916 that has caused him to kind of remain, 278 00:16:41,125 --> 00:16:45,379 in the broader historic tradition. 279 00:16:46,005 --> 00:16:49,508 and then he speaks, paradoxically, that neither 280 00:16:49,508 --> 00:16:52,469 the church nor the faith is something we ultimately choose. 281 00:16:52,469 --> 00:16:53,470 We are chosen, 282 00:16:54,555 --> 00:16:57,141 and we are formed, 283 00:16:57,141 --> 00:17:00,769 in and through, the church, 284 00:17:01,311 --> 00:17:04,023 or even understanding of the faith. 285 00:17:04,023 --> 00:17:07,568 If we think we just freely adopt a faith 286 00:17:07,568 --> 00:17:12,740 because we alone with our Bibles and in our own personal prayer closet, 287 00:17:13,115 --> 00:17:17,703 come up with an understanding of Christ, that's a myth. 288 00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:22,750 There's always some version of Christianity that we're introduced to. 289 00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:27,296 And so, if we come to Christ in and through the church 290 00:17:27,588 --> 00:17:32,760 that we don't adopt, we are adopted by that. 291 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,722 Now granted, we still have to, give our assent. 292 00:17:37,681 --> 00:17:40,142 And give ourselves to that. 293 00:17:40,142 --> 00:17:43,145 So I think there's a bit of a paradox. 294 00:17:43,145 --> 00:17:46,356 He often uses the, analogy of marriage. 295 00:17:46,899 --> 00:17:50,611 Because we are traditions, storied people, 296 00:17:50,611 --> 00:17:54,656 and the gospel always comes through, a tradition. 297 00:17:55,115 --> 00:18:00,162 We, maybe have a lot less choice than we think of. 298 00:18:00,162 --> 00:18:04,124 And so he uses the, the, analogy of marriage. 299 00:18:04,124 --> 00:18:04,750 She said, really? 300 00:18:04,750 --> 00:18:07,711 Actually, you don't fall in love. 301 00:18:07,753 --> 00:18:10,756 And then, learn to be married. 302 00:18:10,839 --> 00:18:14,468 You get married and then you learn the way of love. 303 00:18:15,385 --> 00:18:18,388 And so this idea of something that is over 304 00:18:18,388 --> 00:18:22,684 and above and against you, is the posture. 305 00:18:22,684 --> 00:18:26,772 And then we learn and grow into our understanding of what 306 00:18:26,772 --> 00:18:31,401 discipleship is and what the faith is and what it means to bear witness. 307 00:18:31,819 --> 00:18:37,658 So it's, there's a historic objective aspect of the church. 308 00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:41,286 And yet it also has to be owned. 309 00:18:41,453 --> 00:18:46,291 And there's a subjective dimension to it as well. 310 00:18:47,626 --> 00:18:49,503 Yes. And I mean, to be fair, 311 00:18:49,503 --> 00:18:55,300 all of us have to, to figure out how we navigate that as well, right? 312 00:18:55,342 --> 00:18:57,177 I mean, and 313 00:18:57,177 --> 00:19:01,723 what I mean by that is things that we understand our own responsibility 314 00:19:01,723 --> 00:19:06,270 for God and then being with others who may understand things differently and 315 00:19:07,312 --> 00:19:09,565 and different pieces. 316 00:19:09,565 --> 00:19:10,691 Yeah. 317 00:19:10,691 --> 00:19:12,901 that's true for my wife and I. 318 00:19:12,901 --> 00:19:15,279 We had already been Christians for quite a long while. 319 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:19,366 And then when we felt the call to join the Bruderhof as an example, 320 00:19:19,783 --> 00:19:25,455 we thought before that we knew what dedicated self sacrifice was. 321 00:19:25,455 --> 00:19:28,125 We thought we knew what submission was. 322 00:19:28,125 --> 00:19:31,545 We thought we knew what it meant to be free 323 00:19:31,545 --> 00:19:34,548 from mammon possessions. 324 00:19:34,548 --> 00:19:36,800 We thought we knew a lot of things. 325 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,386 And we realized that only once we joined 326 00:19:39,386 --> 00:19:44,057 did we really learn what it meant to be a true brother and sister, 327 00:19:44,349 --> 00:19:47,352 to humble, to live a humble 328 00:19:47,352 --> 00:19:50,355 way, to learn to to serve. 329 00:19:50,564 --> 00:19:53,775 So it it was actually only 330 00:19:53,775 --> 00:19:56,945 once we committed ourselves to a community 331 00:19:56,945 --> 00:20:01,033 did we actually grow in the depths of our, our faith. 332 00:20:04,995 --> 00:20:06,246 When I read 333 00:20:06,246 --> 00:20:10,709 this book and read through it, much too quickly. 334 00:20:10,792 --> 00:20:12,461 Jesus changes everything. 335 00:20:12,461 --> 00:20:16,131 Is a collection of very well worth savoring. 336 00:20:16,632 --> 00:20:21,261 But the predominant theme for me was like, 337 00:20:21,261 --> 00:20:24,264 here's a picture of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. 338 00:20:24,681 --> 00:20:27,100 Both. You know, in a community. 339 00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:30,103 In a community, in, 340 00:20:30,729 --> 00:20:33,649 you know, my own kind of before the Lord. 341 00:20:33,649 --> 00:20:35,651 And that's really what I want to tease out. 342 00:20:35,651 --> 00:20:39,154 I have a number of of questions, but they're trying to come at that. 343 00:20:39,738 --> 00:20:41,448 What's this picture of discipleship? 344 00:20:41,448 --> 00:20:44,201 From different ways. 345 00:20:44,201 --> 00:20:47,955 But maybe even by introduction, like. 346 00:20:48,538 --> 00:20:48,872 Yeah. 347 00:20:48,872 --> 00:20:54,461 What does it mean to be, a disciple as as Hauerwas is helping us think about it? 348 00:20:55,754 --> 00:20:57,297 Well, I think it's starting point is that, 349 00:20:58,674 --> 00:20:59,967 You can't be a disciple 350 00:20:59,967 --> 00:21:03,845 without joining others along the road of discipleship. 351 00:21:04,972 --> 00:21:09,768 So this idea of a lone Ranger Christian is just automatically ruled out. 352 00:21:10,018 --> 00:21:13,730 But then I think, secondly, 353 00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:17,985 because Jesus is full of grace and truth, he is the way, the truth and the life. 354 00:21:19,069 --> 00:21:23,657 To be a disciple means to live truthfully, 355 00:21:24,449 --> 00:21:26,910 and to own up 356 00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:30,622 where we, are duplicitous, 357 00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:34,126 where we're hypocritical, where we compromise. 358 00:21:34,543 --> 00:21:37,671 And it's not just, 359 00:21:37,754 --> 00:21:41,925 receiving the blessings of the faith. 360 00:21:41,925 --> 00:21:44,219 It's being disciplined. 361 00:21:44,219 --> 00:21:48,890 Discipleship, being disciplined by God to be transformed 362 00:21:49,266 --> 00:21:53,395 into the way of Christ and into his image personally. 363 00:21:53,895 --> 00:21:58,066 So part of that picture is learning the way of peace 364 00:21:58,483 --> 00:22:03,405 because Jesus showed us the way to peace with God and one another on the cross. 365 00:22:04,865 --> 00:22:05,532 It shows, 366 00:22:05,532 --> 00:22:09,161 or discipleship is about forgiveness, 367 00:22:10,037 --> 00:22:14,541 not just forgiveness from God, but forgiving one another. 368 00:22:15,167 --> 00:22:19,046 For every vertical dimension of faith, there is a course 369 00:22:19,379 --> 00:22:22,382 spawning horizontal implication, 370 00:22:22,466 --> 00:22:25,469 a practice, 371 00:22:25,969 --> 00:22:28,805 I think he, Hauerwas rightly, 372 00:22:28,805 --> 00:22:33,727 puts a great deal of emphasis on the sermon on the Mount, in his works. 373 00:22:33,727 --> 00:22:38,774 And he, has many sermons on the sermon on the Mount, a couple of books. 374 00:22:39,191 --> 00:22:44,321 And for, Stanley, this is not some kind of strict ethic. 375 00:22:44,988 --> 00:22:47,991 It's actually good news. 376 00:22:48,158 --> 00:22:49,785 Good news? 377 00:22:49,785 --> 00:22:52,079 You can be liberated from your lust. 378 00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:52,913 Good news. 379 00:22:52,913 --> 00:22:57,918 You can be liberated from, procuring, 380 00:22:57,918 --> 00:23:02,172 your security, you can be free from worry. 381 00:23:02,214 --> 00:23:03,173 Good news. 382 00:23:03,173 --> 00:23:05,634 You can be freed from your anger. 383 00:23:05,634 --> 00:23:09,679 This is a good news declaration of what it looks like 384 00:23:10,222 --> 00:23:13,225 to be a, a citizen of his kingdom. 385 00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:13,850 good news. 386 00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:17,187 You can be freed from the dictates of mammon. 387 00:23:17,771 --> 00:23:20,690 So, and 388 00:23:20,690 --> 00:23:25,570 and this sermon on the Mount is given to his community. 389 00:23:25,904 --> 00:23:27,447 To the disciples. 390 00:23:27,447 --> 00:23:29,908 Yes. There were crowds listening in, 391 00:23:29,908 --> 00:23:32,911 but this is what the new Israel is to be about. 392 00:23:33,286 --> 00:23:36,331 And this isn't a ethic, 393 00:23:36,331 --> 00:23:40,043 of gloom and doom and obligation and hardship. 394 00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:43,713 It's actually, a message of liberation. 395 00:23:44,131 --> 00:23:48,343 So the Christian, the vision of the Christian life is, is very full. 396 00:23:48,343 --> 00:23:52,472 Orbed, it's total it has impact now, 397 00:23:52,889 --> 00:23:56,852 it's not just a personal piety. 398 00:23:57,310 --> 00:24:01,440 It's it's, it affects every dimension of life. 399 00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:04,943 I he is not quoted Augustine, 400 00:24:05,277 --> 00:24:11,408 that I know of, but Augustine's he he once said, 401 00:24:11,616 --> 00:24:16,079 if Jesus is not Lord of all, he is not Lord at all. 402 00:24:16,746 --> 00:24:20,625 And I think that generates, Stanley's thought 403 00:24:20,625 --> 00:24:23,920 that the lordship of Christ encompasses every dimension of life. 404 00:24:24,546 --> 00:24:28,341 And that's what the sermon on the Mount, does. 405 00:24:29,718 --> 00:24:30,886 In the chapters, 406 00:24:30,886 --> 00:24:35,223 they, you know, he does go into more specifics, of what, 407 00:24:35,432 --> 00:24:38,977 you know, would look like and, and give some very nice, 408 00:24:38,977 --> 00:24:42,272 poignant examples from his own life and, and whatnot. 409 00:24:42,898 --> 00:24:45,901 But, so it's not just some abstract ideal. 410 00:24:48,904 --> 00:24:49,821 So you mentioned 411 00:24:49,821 --> 00:24:55,243 the emphasis on truthfulness which I picked up on a very thoroughgoing 412 00:24:55,243 --> 00:25:00,999 truthfulness and also a very thoroughgoing emphasis on 413 00:25:02,709 --> 00:25:06,505 peace with others and not peace 414 00:25:06,505 --> 00:25:09,508 in a sort of non-confrontational way, but 415 00:25:10,091 --> 00:25:12,719 peace and seeking relationship. 416 00:25:12,719 --> 00:25:15,722 Is there a way in which 417 00:25:16,014 --> 00:25:19,643 I think he sees a deep connection there, those almost 418 00:25:20,769 --> 00:25:24,814 two sides of the same coin or interrelated? 419 00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:28,818 Oh, I think I think they're definitely interrelated. 420 00:25:28,818 --> 00:25:33,031 There's a chapter in this collection, where Stanley reflects 421 00:25:33,031 --> 00:25:37,160 on Matthew 18, where Jesus says, hey, if, 422 00:25:37,661 --> 00:25:41,706 if someone has sinned, against you, go to him directly. 423 00:25:41,706 --> 00:25:43,291 If they listen, you’ve won a brother. 424 00:25:43,291 --> 00:25:45,919 If not, bring another brother. 425 00:25:45,919 --> 00:25:50,507 And if not, if you haven't gotten through, bring it to the church. 426 00:25:51,591 --> 00:25:53,593 And he says, you know, it's paradoxical. 427 00:25:53,593 --> 00:25:58,014 You think, well, if you do that, you're going to ignite a firestorm. 428 00:25:58,265 --> 00:26:01,059 But he actually, says 429 00:26:01,059 --> 00:26:05,188 this is key, being truthful but truthfulness 430 00:26:05,188 --> 00:26:08,608 with the readiness to forgive and to be forgiven, 431 00:26:09,025 --> 00:26:11,736 that leads to peace. 432 00:26:11,736 --> 00:26:16,366 When we're not truthful, we may have, declared truce. 433 00:26:16,783 --> 00:26:20,370 We may live, parallel lives with one another, 434 00:26:20,579 --> 00:26:23,957 but we do not have the fullness of Christ's peace. 435 00:26:24,249 --> 00:26:27,586 And the fullness of Christ's peace is far more than just the absence 436 00:26:27,586 --> 00:26:30,714 of a conflict or avoiding each other. 437 00:26:30,714 --> 00:26:32,924 So we don't have further conflict. 438 00:26:32,924 --> 00:26:37,637 It's a matter of really entering into the fullness, the wholeness, 439 00:26:38,138 --> 00:26:43,018 of God's shalom, which restores everything, 440 00:26:43,018 --> 00:26:47,772 makes everything well and right, where people and relationships flourish. 441 00:26:48,815 --> 00:26:51,985 I recently asked, Stanley, I said, you know, 442 00:26:51,985 --> 00:26:57,282 why do you think the especially the mainline Protestant churches is dying? 443 00:26:58,241 --> 00:27:01,244 And he said, well, it because God's killing it. 444 00:27:02,412 --> 00:27:05,206 And I thought about, well, then why is killing? 445 00:27:05,206 --> 00:27:06,499 Why is God killing? 446 00:27:06,499 --> 00:27:09,502 Is it because we don't live truthfully 447 00:27:09,961 --> 00:27:12,714 and we don't speak truth to one another? 448 00:27:12,714 --> 00:27:16,509 And, and he uses many different kinds of examples. 449 00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:19,512 One of his favorite ones is that, 450 00:27:19,512 --> 00:27:22,515 you know, can we be truthful with, 451 00:27:22,766 --> 00:27:27,562 how much, capitalism has a grip on our life 452 00:27:27,896 --> 00:27:31,483 and, consumer capitalism and, in particular, 453 00:27:31,775 --> 00:27:35,153 what about before you become a member of the church, you declare 454 00:27:35,403 --> 00:27:38,990 what your annual income is and how much you spend on yourself? 455 00:27:40,533 --> 00:27:41,117 And the 456 00:27:41,117 --> 00:27:44,496 spending choices, are we willing to be disciplined? 457 00:27:44,496 --> 00:27:48,166 And Jesus speaks quite a bit about the dangers and afflictions 458 00:27:48,166 --> 00:27:51,211 of mammon and and so forth, and you can't serve God and mammon. 459 00:27:51,336 --> 00:27:53,963 But he says quite realistic. 460 00:27:53,963 --> 00:27:57,759 People would probably rather talk more about their sex lives 461 00:27:57,759 --> 00:27:59,761 than about their pocketbook. 462 00:27:59,761 --> 00:28:04,891 We're afraid to tell the truth about how much in bondage we are 463 00:28:05,058 --> 00:28:10,230 to the American nightmare of, making money. 464 00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:13,233 Spending money and spending it on ourselves. 465 00:28:13,233 --> 00:28:17,946 So we they are, inextricably bound together 466 00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:21,241 because Mammon separates us from one another. 467 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:24,661 The haves and the have nots, those who are upper class 468 00:28:24,661 --> 00:28:27,997 and lower class, paying services for one another. 469 00:28:27,997 --> 00:28:28,957 We're in the church. 470 00:28:28,957 --> 00:28:33,336 Why should we be paying, personal services to one another? 471 00:28:33,753 --> 00:28:37,340 This should be voluntary, out of love and service to one another. 472 00:28:39,634 --> 00:28:40,719 I mean, so that leads us 473 00:28:40,719 --> 00:28:44,139 maybe to the question of, you know, how he sees 474 00:28:44,305 --> 00:28:47,308 how the church fits in, 475 00:28:47,434 --> 00:28:48,143 to this picture. 476 00:28:48,143 --> 00:28:52,230 I think you've already started to illuminate it with those ideas of, 477 00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:56,443 yeah, truthfulness with each other and, and peace. 478 00:28:56,776 --> 00:29:00,363 But yeah, that's another theme, 479 00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:05,618 throughout this book is the importance of that 480 00:29:06,244 --> 00:29:08,830 close community. 481 00:29:08,830 --> 00:29:09,080 Yeah. 482 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,001 And we, if we want, to be, 483 00:29:13,251 --> 00:29:16,671 accountable to Christ, who is the head of the church, 484 00:29:16,671 --> 00:29:22,719 then we need to be accountable to and for one another, in his body. 485 00:29:23,219 --> 00:29:27,474 And so, the church is crucial. 486 00:29:27,891 --> 00:29:33,104 The church is where we learn, who Jesus is in the scriptures 487 00:29:33,104 --> 00:29:36,107 through our worship in our liturgy. 488 00:29:36,399 --> 00:29:38,234 But it's it's where we meet 489 00:29:38,234 --> 00:29:42,405 Christ in our brother and sister to, in unto the least of these. 490 00:29:42,405 --> 00:29:44,866 Jesus said, I'm in your midst. 491 00:29:44,866 --> 00:29:50,038 And so, the church is critical 492 00:29:50,205 --> 00:29:53,041 not only for personal formation, 493 00:29:53,041 --> 00:29:55,543 but to bear witness to God's kingdom. 494 00:29:55,543 --> 00:30:01,132 And and for Hauerwas, Jesus is not just a personal Savior. 495 00:30:01,132 --> 00:30:04,260 He's the Auto Basilea, the kingdom of God in person. 496 00:30:05,512 --> 00:30:06,471 Jesus 497 00:30:06,471 --> 00:30:10,183 preached the gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of God's new order 498 00:30:10,183 --> 00:30:14,479 here on earth that breaks in to our midst and transforms 499 00:30:14,979 --> 00:30:18,525 not just our personal lives, but the existing social order. 500 00:30:19,150 --> 00:30:22,445 And if we don't have a way to live 501 00:30:22,445 --> 00:30:25,448 that out as the church, then we have 502 00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:29,244 we don't have much to bear witness to above the power of Christ. 503 00:30:30,286 --> 00:30:34,123 We reduce Christ, to being somebody 504 00:30:34,123 --> 00:30:38,002 who died for our sins and made us right with God. 505 00:30:38,002 --> 00:30:42,257 And then we're just waiting to meet God, in the afterlife. 506 00:30:42,590 --> 00:30:46,511 And and that that's not really great news for here and now. 507 00:30:46,761 --> 00:30:49,931 It might be great news, at some other point. 508 00:30:50,682 --> 00:30:54,477 So it's it's also vital the church is really vital 509 00:30:54,978 --> 00:30:57,021 because this is where we learn to be free. 510 00:30:57,981 --> 00:31:02,402 Not America, not not the, marketplace. 511 00:31:02,861 --> 00:31:07,991 Not in entertainment and personal choices, 512 00:31:08,324 --> 00:31:11,327 we learn true freedom in the context 513 00:31:11,619 --> 00:31:15,540 of being a committed body, one to another, ready 514 00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:18,543 to lay our lives down, one for another. 515 00:31:18,835 --> 00:31:22,964 And and if we can't do that, then the world can't see 516 00:31:22,964 --> 00:31:25,049 what is possible in Christ. 517 00:31:25,049 --> 00:31:28,052 It can't even see what it is, he often says 518 00:31:28,052 --> 00:31:30,889 that the world needs the church, 519 00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:33,099 so that the world can see what it is 520 00:31:33,099 --> 00:31:36,102 apart from God. 521 00:31:36,102 --> 00:31:37,979 And, so, 522 00:31:37,979 --> 00:31:43,484 it's vital that we, we figure out what it means to be the body 523 00:31:43,484 --> 00:31:49,824 to to be the alternative, to a world that is trying to operate, 524 00:31:50,283 --> 00:31:54,954 on very fundamentals from, a life apart from God. 525 00:31:55,955 --> 00:31:58,958 You know, we're in rebellion against God. 526 00:31:58,958 --> 00:32:02,253 This illusion of self-sufficiency. 527 00:32:02,253 --> 00:32:03,338 We don't need God. 528 00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:05,924 And the confusion 529 00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:09,344 and the corruption and the heartache and the war and the violence and so forth. 530 00:32:09,761 --> 00:32:12,013 So the church 531 00:32:12,013 --> 00:32:15,433 models demonstrates this is the kind of world, 532 00:32:15,975 --> 00:32:18,978 that that is possible in Christ. 533 00:32:22,065 --> 00:32:23,399 Yeah. 534 00:32:23,399 --> 00:32:26,611 That also helps to tie in some of the earlier 535 00:32:26,861 --> 00:32:29,864 emphasis on 536 00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:31,908 you know you can't make sense 537 00:32:31,908 --> 00:32:35,328 of Christianity as well. 538 00:32:35,328 --> 00:32:37,997 Here's a set of ethics that you can put out to the world. 539 00:32:37,997 --> 00:32:41,501 Just as this is the way to live because they don't 540 00:32:42,210 --> 00:32:45,380 they don't actually make sense or they can't be understood until it's, 541 00:32:46,589 --> 00:32:50,718 you know, here is Jesus himself and the people who 542 00:32:51,761 --> 00:32:54,555 who belong to him and each other. 543 00:32:54,555 --> 00:32:56,307 And there's that picture. 544 00:32:56,307 --> 00:32:58,935 Yeah, yeah. Ethics is always within a story. 545 00:32:58,935 --> 00:33:00,853 So which story are you living out? 546 00:33:00,853 --> 00:33:04,357 Are you living out the narrative that the world says leads 547 00:33:04,357 --> 00:33:08,736 to prosperity, fulfillment, and happiness to the good life? 548 00:33:09,278 --> 00:33:12,281 Or are you going to adopt Jesus’ story, as your own? 549 00:33:12,365 --> 00:33:17,578 And only within that story can we make sense of his teaching, 550 00:33:17,829 --> 00:33:20,832 because you can't separate the teaching from the teacher. 551 00:33:21,541 --> 00:33:22,875 And this is really important. 552 00:33:22,875 --> 00:33:25,837 Jesus didn't teach some universal truths 553 00:33:26,170 --> 00:33:30,758 that smart people contemplate and go, oh yes, that's right. 554 00:33:30,883 --> 00:33:33,636 Turn the other cheek. That's a good strategy. 555 00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:38,057 You know, any rational person can discover that 556 00:33:38,057 --> 00:33:42,729 and other religious traditions also maybe, assert the same thing. 557 00:33:43,062 --> 00:33:46,983 No, we don't really understand what that means, apart from who Christ is 558 00:33:46,983 --> 00:33:47,775 and how he lived. 559 00:33:47,775 --> 00:33:48,943 That out, the particularity of following Jesus. 560 00:33:48,943 --> 00:33:52,030 That out, the particularity of following Jesus. 561 00:33:52,030 --> 00:33:55,491 And that's why this book centers on discipleship. 562 00:33:55,491 --> 00:34:00,663 It's not an, the A book on Jesus's ethic. 563 00:34:01,622 --> 00:34:03,374 It is. 564 00:34:03,374 --> 00:34:06,252 It's about Jesus and the kingdom 565 00:34:06,252 --> 00:34:09,881 that, breaks in through him 566 00:34:10,131 --> 00:34:13,134 and into the church today. 567 00:34:13,885 --> 00:34:14,135 Yeah. 568 00:34:14,135 --> 00:34:15,762 And you mentioned strategy there. 569 00:34:15,762 --> 00:34:20,016 So, Hauerwas tells us 570 00:34:20,016 --> 00:34:23,019 that nonviolence is not optional for us. 571 00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:27,148 But nonviolence is also not a strategy. 572 00:34:27,523 --> 00:34:30,818 He says, you want to clarify that? 573 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,114 Yes. For for him, nonviolence is 574 00:34:35,114 --> 00:34:38,534 is not a way to improve the world. 575 00:34:39,452 --> 00:34:43,498 It is not a way to end, war or, 576 00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:47,794 lessen on the likelihood of war. 577 00:34:48,252 --> 00:34:52,840 Nonviolence is the fruit of being faithful to the way of Jesus. 578 00:34:53,508 --> 00:34:57,428 It will bear fruit, but it can also bear great suffering. 579 00:34:57,929 --> 00:35:02,767 There's no guarantee that you will get your, head cut off. 580 00:35:03,518 --> 00:35:06,562 It doesn't always work in a worldly point of view, 581 00:35:06,938 --> 00:35:10,149 but we are faithful, to the way of Christ 582 00:35:10,149 --> 00:35:13,152 because this is how God conquers evil. 583 00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:16,322 We don't have to be in control. 584 00:35:16,322 --> 00:35:17,907 God is in control. 585 00:35:17,907 --> 00:35:22,870 We take up arms because we feel it's it's up to us to make things right. 586 00:35:23,371 --> 00:35:26,582 And we take desperate measures to make things right. 587 00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:32,421 Our faith is, is placed in the one who sovereignly, 588 00:35:33,923 --> 00:35:36,926 restores all things through the cross. 589 00:35:37,343 --> 00:35:38,594 He doesn't skirt the cross. 590 00:35:38,594 --> 00:35:42,181 It's always through the cross of self-sacrificial love. 591 00:35:42,807 --> 00:35:45,059 So it's not a strategy. 592 00:35:45,059 --> 00:35:49,689 It doesn't mean we can't lend, a word of advice, 593 00:35:50,064 --> 00:35:53,067 or some wisdom to the world 594 00:35:53,192 --> 00:35:56,529 to help lessen, the cycle of violence. 595 00:35:57,405 --> 00:36:00,408 It doesn't mean we ignore the need of the world. 596 00:36:00,658 --> 00:36:05,163 But, it is not a strategy. 597 00:36:05,163 --> 00:36:06,747 And that's not why we follow it. 598 00:36:06,747 --> 00:36:08,416 We we follow. 599 00:36:08,416 --> 00:36:10,168 We don't actually don't follow nonviolence. 600 00:36:10,168 --> 00:36:11,502 We follow the way of Christ. 601 00:36:11,502 --> 00:36:13,254 We follow Christ. 602 00:36:13,254 --> 00:36:17,091 And part of that is also rooted in our love of enemy. 603 00:36:17,884 --> 00:36:20,970 While we were yet sinners, God loved us. 604 00:36:22,847 --> 00:36:27,351 And so, the the way to to win the enemy 605 00:36:27,768 --> 00:36:31,314 or the way to express God's love to the enemy 606 00:36:31,647 --> 00:36:34,650 is to actually love the enemy. 607 00:36:34,817 --> 00:36:39,780 Whether they are won by that love or not is up to God that this is, 608 00:36:40,114 --> 00:36:46,120 an unconditional, way to give witness to to the love of God. 609 00:36:47,413 --> 00:36:47,830 Yeah. 610 00:36:47,830 --> 00:36:48,956 Thanks. 611 00:36:48,956 --> 00:36:51,792 Thanks for that. 612 00:36:51,792 --> 00:36:54,795 So and I think, you know, thinking back to my own 613 00:36:55,546 --> 00:36:58,549 own circles and, 614 00:36:58,633 --> 00:37:01,636 and tradition, you know, Anabaptist, Mennonite, 615 00:37:02,178 --> 00:37:06,641 you know, we've had a sense of a similar emphasis. 616 00:37:06,724 --> 00:37:09,727 We said we don't go to war, but 617 00:37:10,394 --> 00:37:14,440 we're not naive enough to tell the government that, you know, 618 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,485 they they could have a strategy of peace that would avoid, 619 00:37:19,237 --> 00:37:21,989 avoid problems or difficulty or whatever. 620 00:37:21,989 --> 00:37:25,785 And, you know, a couple, Well, one way that 621 00:37:25,785 --> 00:37:30,498 that has come out is we sometimes talk about being apolitical 622 00:37:31,749 --> 00:37:34,752 and not being political, because 623 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,506 because we're not using those kinds of strategies of violence 624 00:37:38,506 --> 00:37:42,802 or strategies of electoral politics or whatever. 625 00:37:44,637 --> 00:37:47,890 But then, a quote here from the book 626 00:37:48,266 --> 00:37:52,144 and I'm picking up on this word political, Hauerwas writes, 627 00:37:53,271 --> 00:37:56,607 to worship Jesus is itself a politics, 628 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,403 a politics that subverts the status quo. 629 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,283 So if we don't have strategies and we're not exercising, 630 00:38:05,283 --> 00:38:08,286 you know, Jesus teachings as a strategy, 631 00:38:08,452 --> 00:38:11,455 what kind of politics is this? 632 00:38:11,455 --> 00:38:13,624 Yeah. What kind of politics? 633 00:38:13,624 --> 00:38:16,210 To subverts the status quo. 634 00:38:16,210 --> 00:38:18,337 Well, Jesus models the politics. Okay? 635 00:38:18,337 --> 00:38:23,384 He takes up a towel, and washes feet. 636 00:38:24,927 --> 00:38:29,515 That's the beginning of of God's politics. 637 00:38:29,598 --> 00:38:31,976 The way of humility. 638 00:38:31,976 --> 00:38:35,229 We don't, solve, 639 00:38:35,688 --> 00:38:41,193 our problems with each other, nor do we solve our problems, 640 00:38:41,193 --> 00:38:47,325 that we confront socially by by way of coercion or having power over. 641 00:38:47,825 --> 00:38:51,579 It is actually in the humble service 642 00:38:52,204 --> 00:38:54,707 of, considerate, 643 00:38:54,707 --> 00:38:58,627 considering the interest of others above our own. 644 00:38:59,378 --> 00:39:03,758 Now that's the so the exact opposite of the world's politics. 645 00:39:04,175 --> 00:39:09,847 Most people are voting, according to their perceived self-interest. 646 00:39:09,847 --> 00:39:13,476 And what party will serve their self-interest. 647 00:39:13,476 --> 00:39:15,353 Now, some do think that, 648 00:39:15,353 --> 00:39:18,898 serving a particular party will serve the interest of the country, 649 00:39:19,106 --> 00:39:23,235 not just their own, but, of course, implicit in that is that if it serves 650 00:39:23,235 --> 00:39:27,490 the interests of the country that serves my own, and why that country, 651 00:39:27,907 --> 00:39:32,578 Hauerwas is very critical of any form of Christian nationalism. 652 00:39:32,995 --> 00:39:36,707 Our allegiance is to King Jesus and the kingdom of God, 653 00:39:36,749 --> 00:39:41,045 which is a transnational, rulership of God on earth. 654 00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:45,007 That not only transcends, but includes all peoples. 655 00:39:45,466 --> 00:39:49,678 So to worship Jesus is a kind of politics. 656 00:39:49,678 --> 00:39:53,349 It's not just a pious set of exercises 657 00:39:53,808 --> 00:39:57,478 that are highly personal and removed. 658 00:39:58,020 --> 00:40:00,773 It gives expression. 659 00:40:00,773 --> 00:40:04,360 Another politics is that, 660 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,780 there will not be rich nor poor. 661 00:40:08,572 --> 00:40:12,868 There's not going to be, social stratification. 662 00:40:13,494 --> 00:40:17,998 This is quite different than the way the world operates. 663 00:40:18,499 --> 00:40:22,211 And to say we worship Jesus means 664 00:40:22,211 --> 00:40:25,464 we give our full allegiance to him 665 00:40:25,965 --> 00:40:28,968 and to the way in which he reigns in the world, 666 00:40:29,218 --> 00:40:32,096 and that will incarnate itself in 667 00:40:32,096 --> 00:40:35,099 very public, social, concrete ways. 668 00:40:35,349 --> 00:40:37,184 And it will be in contradistinction. 669 00:40:37,184 --> 00:40:40,187 And then sometimes it will come into conflict 670 00:40:40,396 --> 00:40:43,399 with the governments of men. 671 00:40:43,607 --> 00:40:47,862 And that's one and part of the reason 672 00:40:47,945 --> 00:40:51,532 might come into overt conflict might be 673 00:40:51,866 --> 00:40:56,620 whether the state it perceives such a witness as a threat or not. 674 00:40:57,788 --> 00:40:58,873 And it's. 675 00:40:58,873 --> 00:41:01,876 You refer to it as politics because it is 676 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,628 how we live together or what it means 677 00:41:04,628 --> 00:41:07,631 to be a community and, 678 00:41:08,924 --> 00:41:12,094 how we order our life, how we handle money, all of these things. 679 00:41:12,094 --> 00:41:14,472 Yeah. How we make decisions together. 680 00:41:14,472 --> 00:41:19,268 And and how we navigate a social life together. 681 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,061 That is a kind of politic. 682 00:41:21,061 --> 00:41:22,521 But it's not Partizan politics. 683 00:41:22,521 --> 00:41:24,482 It's not power politics. 684 00:41:24,482 --> 00:41:27,485 So it's very different, 685 00:41:27,735 --> 00:41:31,614 than how we usually use the word politics. 686 00:41:33,532 --> 00:41:34,033 Yeah. 687 00:41:34,033 --> 00:41:36,994 I mean, as kind of closing here. 688 00:41:36,994 --> 00:41:39,497 A couple quotes 689 00:41:39,497 --> 00:41:43,125 and I'll read here and then a few comments on them. 690 00:41:43,792 --> 00:41:46,253 The one that struck me from this book, 691 00:41:46,253 --> 00:41:49,673 disciples of Christ are those who journey forth 692 00:41:49,673 --> 00:41:53,135 from the conventional to base their lives on the nature of God 693 00:41:53,802 --> 00:41:57,056 to be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. 694 00:41:58,307 --> 00:42:00,351 And then the other one that 695 00:42:00,351 --> 00:42:03,479 that really caught my attention, was. 696 00:42:05,898 --> 00:42:06,857 We believe that 697 00:42:06,857 --> 00:42:09,860 the revolution has happened, and we are It. 698 00:42:10,778 --> 00:42:13,781 Yeah, both of those are kind of. 699 00:42:14,532 --> 00:42:15,866 They're enigmatic. 700 00:42:15,866 --> 00:42:18,911 They're very bold claims about what it means 701 00:42:18,911 --> 00:42:22,039 to be a Christian and the effect on it. 702 00:42:22,373 --> 00:42:24,750 Effect on us. 703 00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:25,459 Yeah. 704 00:42:25,459 --> 00:42:28,003 And I think it's important to understand that when. 705 00:42:28,003 --> 00:42:32,508 When House talks about perfection, he's referring to the perfection 706 00:42:33,384 --> 00:42:35,511 that Jesus is referring to. 707 00:42:35,511 --> 00:42:39,098 And if you look in the sermon on the Mount, be perfect as your heavenly father. 708 00:42:40,099 --> 00:42:43,018 Be indiscriminate in your love. 709 00:42:43,018 --> 00:42:46,814 The sun shines on both the good and the evil. 710 00:42:47,231 --> 00:42:50,818 We are called to love not just our friends who pay us back, 711 00:42:50,818 --> 00:42:54,738 but our enemies be indiscriminate, unconditional in your love. 712 00:42:55,281 --> 00:42:57,283 It's not about being sinless. 713 00:42:57,283 --> 00:43:01,495 It's not, about, being, impeccable. 714 00:43:01,912 --> 00:43:04,582 Morally, we still stand under the cross. 715 00:43:04,582 --> 00:43:07,876 And I think that, unfortunately, in some Anabaptist 716 00:43:07,876 --> 00:43:10,879 traditions, the striving to be perfect, 717 00:43:13,340 --> 00:43:15,342 there's, there's a misunderstanding of what 718 00:43:15,342 --> 00:43:19,263 that is, and they, they miss, the essence. 719 00:43:19,263 --> 00:43:22,266 And that is the the love of Christ. 720 00:43:22,433 --> 00:43:26,478 And, and that's the revolution. 721 00:43:27,521 --> 00:43:29,315 That is the revolution. 722 00:43:29,315 --> 00:43:32,318 Here is a people who love, 723 00:43:33,152 --> 00:43:35,487 and they take great sacrifice. 724 00:43:35,487 --> 00:43:38,657 It takes great humility. It, 725 00:43:40,284 --> 00:43:43,037 it it is something that really can 726 00:43:43,037 --> 00:43:47,333 only come about by a perfection that is not of our own. 727 00:43:47,833 --> 00:43:51,211 It's revealed in Christ and through the Holy Spirit 728 00:43:51,629 --> 00:43:56,383 that, remember, holy means set apart the spirit that works in our midst, 729 00:43:56,383 --> 00:44:00,137 that sets us apart, for a new world 730 00:44:00,137 --> 00:44:03,641 that is possible gives us the power and the grace to do that. 731 00:44:03,641 --> 00:44:06,018 It's not from ourselves, but. 732 00:44:06,018 --> 00:44:09,063 But this is, what we're not only called to, 733 00:44:09,063 --> 00:44:13,275 but we are actually privileged to experience in Christ. 734 00:44:13,484 --> 00:44:16,070 And it's what we want to share with the world. 735 00:44:16,070 --> 00:44:21,408 There is a different new kind of world that is possible, but it's in Christ 736 00:44:21,825 --> 00:44:25,704 because Jesus can and does change everything. 737 00:44:26,372 --> 00:44:28,582 We don't change everything. 738 00:44:28,582 --> 00:44:31,168 Our piety does not change everything. 739 00:44:31,168 --> 00:44:34,338 Our theology does not change everything. 740 00:44:34,421 --> 00:44:40,344 Christ changes everything and makes a new kind of life together possible. 741 00:44:42,054 --> 00:44:44,640 And there we ended up right back at the title of the book, 742 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:49,353 which is Jesus Changes Everything, which we will be sure to link 743 00:44:49,561 --> 00:44:52,564 in our description and all of that. 744 00:44:53,107 --> 00:44:53,524 Yeah. 745 00:44:53,524 --> 00:44:55,818 Thank you, Charles, for joining us. 746 00:44:55,818 --> 00:45:00,531 And yeah, helping us to think through some of these things. 747 00:45:00,531 --> 00:45:03,534 And yeah, for the work you put into, 748 00:45:03,951 --> 00:45:07,663 arranging this, collection from Hauerwas. 749 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,500 I guess you took stuff he written, wrote earlier and then worked with him to, 750 00:45:12,292 --> 00:45:16,547 kind of condense it and put it together into this book, if I understand. 751 00:45:16,547 --> 00:45:17,423 Right. 752 00:45:17,423 --> 00:45:17,756 Yeah. 753 00:45:17,756 --> 00:45:20,134 This book is not written for the Academy. 754 00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:24,388 I worked with Stanley on a lot of his other writings, and we. 755 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,598 We rework them. 756 00:45:26,598 --> 00:45:29,601 It made them a bit more accessible. 757 00:45:29,893 --> 00:45:32,604 And we made sure that, 758 00:45:32,604 --> 00:45:37,192 the theme of following Jesus, the theme of Jesus changing 759 00:45:37,192 --> 00:45:42,406 everything really comes through, the entirety of these, these pages. 760 00:45:43,490 --> 00:45:45,159 So, and 761 00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:49,580 just for your listeners, we do have a, a group study 762 00:45:49,580 --> 00:45:54,334 guide online through Plough that they can download to help them. 763 00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:59,923 So it's, it's a, it's a great book to read personally, but it's even better 764 00:45:59,923 --> 00:46:03,761 if you can find a group of people to, to to read it together. 765 00:46:03,761 --> 00:46:06,764 The chapters are short, as you know. 766 00:46:07,347 --> 00:46:08,557 They're they're crisp. 767 00:46:08,557 --> 00:46:10,934 But they're packed full. 768 00:46:10,934 --> 00:46:15,022 And you will feel, the heart of Stanley Hauerwas, 769 00:46:15,230 --> 00:46:19,067 not just the brilliance of his mind and his ability to articulate 770 00:46:19,568 --> 00:46:25,240 who Jesus is and and, what he, lived for. 771 00:46:27,117 --> 00:46:28,035 Yeah. 772 00:46:28,035 --> 00:46:28,619 Thank you. 773 00:46:28,619 --> 00:46:30,913 Thanks again for joining us. 774 00:46:30,913 --> 00:46:34,166 Well, thank you, for this chance to to be with you. 775 00:46:34,166 --> 00:46:35,167 I wish you all the best. 776 00:46:36,668 --> 00:46:39,671 Thanks for joining us for this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. 777 00:46:39,922 --> 00:46:43,300 Our mission is to encourage allegiance to Jesus sacrificial kingdom. 778 00:46:43,842 --> 00:46:47,554 Our resources include this podcast, written essays, 779 00:46:47,888 --> 00:46:52,017 a lecture series by Frank Reed which is called developing as a servant. 780 00:46:52,643 --> 00:46:56,814 And we're currently producing a documentary series on the history 781 00:46:56,814 --> 00:47:02,110 of Anabaptism, specifically the origins in the Reformation era, 782 00:47:02,110 --> 00:47:06,114 which will be filmed on site at various locations in Europe. 783 00:47:07,032 --> 00:47:11,954 You can find these resources and more information at AnabaptistPerspectives.Org.