Speaker: 00:00:00

Ethics is always within a story.

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So which story are you living out?

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Are you living out the narrative

that the world says leads

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to prosperity, fulfillment,

and happiness to the good life?

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Or are you going to adopt Jesus’ story,

as your own?

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And only within that story

can we make sense of his teaching,

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because you can't separate the teaching

from the teacher.

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And this is really important.

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Jesus didn't teach some universal truths

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that smart people contemplate and go,

oh yes, that's right.

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Turn the other cheek.

That's a good strategy.

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No, we don't really understand

what that means, apart from who Christ is

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and how he lived.

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That out.

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welcome,

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Charles, to Anabaptist Perspectives

podcast.

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And yeah, today

we're going to be reflecting on,

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some of the challenge

that was presented to the church

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in this age by Stanley Hauerwas,

some of his writings, and,

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especially this collection

that you worked on, helped

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put together called

Jesus Changes Everything.

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But yeah, as an introduction to that,

I'd like to know a little bit,

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who you are and how how Hauerwas

has influence you personally.

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I'm going to read a little quote,

that you wrote

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in the introduction to this volume

and let you go from there.

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So you wrote Stanley Hauerwas

and his writings were a large reason

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why 30 years ago,

I left a professorship at a seminary

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and moved 2000 miles with my wife

to join the Bruderhof,

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a Christian community

that shares possessions

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in common in accordance

with the sermon on the Mount.

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Disillusioned with Christianity as usual,

we wanted to live like

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the first Christians where no one was in

need and everyone belonged.

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So yeah, tell us a little more.

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Well, good to be with you.

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Marlin, thank you for this opportunity

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to share about our latest publication

from Plough.

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It's, good to be with you.

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And, yeah, I can tell you a little bit

more about my background.

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I became a Christian in the Jesus movement

in California.

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And, my introduction to the faith was,

by and large,

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from within an evangelical context.

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But as I grew in my faith and,

immersed myself in the scriptures,

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I came to the awareness of how,

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personalized,

hyper individualized and spiritualized.

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The evangelical perspective

was, on the faith.

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And, this, caused me

to have to take stock of my faith

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and ask myself, is all there,

to the message of Jesus, of salvation.

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And, eternal

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life in some other, by and by.

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And, I began reflecting and reading more

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and, and I came across, Stanley Hauerwas’

writings at the time.

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I was a doctoral student.

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I had finished seminary,

and I was, doctoral student,

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at the University of Colorado in Boulder,

studying ethics and public policy.

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And, I had great hopes for that program.

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But after reading, Hauerwas’ early works,

I began to realize that the liberal

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ideal of objective, universal ethics,

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was, based on a myth of, freedom.

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And this idea of neutrality.

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And so, I delved more into his writings.

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And when his book, The Peaceable Kingdom

came out, I was thoroughly liberated from

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this idea that you can only do ethics

from a rational, objective point of view.

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And, so I actually left that program

and then went on

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to, study, theology.

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And in that process, I became convinced

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that, the,

the nature of the Christian life was such

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that it had to be lived

within a communal or community context.

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And, so my wife and I started

seeking more about that.

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And after an attempt at an inner city

ministry and community

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and in Denver, which failed in the end,

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we had come across, the Bruderhof

and the publication of The Plough,

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and we started exploring, that community.

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And eventually we joined,

and shortly thereafter,

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I, was assigned a task to work

in our small publishing house, The Plough

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And it was then I started up

a correspondence with with Stanley.

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Who supported our efforts over the last,

30 years.

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And, so he's been very influential

in my journey,

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and he's been a great support.

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To us as a community.

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And our publishing efforts.

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So it was interesting.

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The first.

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The first kind of stage you mentioned

was philosophical.

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Like you say,

you were in a public policy program.

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And so

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kind of first stage was leaving that

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and then eventually went further into,

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I guess, intentional Christian community.

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That's right. I had gone to seminary.

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And actually,

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eventually went back to that seminary

and taught for about ten years.

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And, what Hauerwas convinced me of

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is that you can't do ethics

apart from Christ and the story of Christ.

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But then, he also argued

that you can't really, understand

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who Jesus is apart from Israel,

the people of God.

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And so you can't do ethics

apart from the church.

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And and so I had to grapple with, well,

what church, which church?

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The, psychotherapeutic church,

the social justice church,

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the seeker friendly church,

the Bible believing church, which church?

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And, after really grappling with that,

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none of those options were viable

for my wife and I.

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And we we wanted to live out

an alternative, community.

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As depicted, in the scriptures,

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and described, and that's

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what propelled us to a thicker,

kind of life of community with others.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

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Yeah. I'm.

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I'm anxious to to dive into some of the,

the content of this book.

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Jesus changes everything and that picture

of discipleship and so on.

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But also I'd like to ask a few,

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kind of questions

about Stanley Hauerwas,

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you know, this enormously well known

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figure and.

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Like you said, he supported

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your publishing efforts at the Bruderhof.

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A lot of his themes on violence.

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And things like that.

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Even the way he talks about church sound

very familiar to,

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you know, most Anabaptist groups.

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At the same time,

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2001 time magazine named him

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America's best theologian.

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And the stuff

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he advocated

does not seem very American, at least

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as I read it.

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So any backstory on that?

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Well,

I think that's quite ironic, actually.

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You know, I think it was Dorothy Day

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who said that, a radical.

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The way you tame

a radical in the faith is to,

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name them a saint.

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And I think this was one way,

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the American mainstream, tried to tame

Stanley Hauerwas.

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He often says that the, word

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or term

best is not a theological category.

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So. So why was he picked on?

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Well, the fact of the matter is, is that

his writings had become so influential.

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And they actually dislodged

a lot of people

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from the liberal attempt to justify

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Christianity in a Western context.

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And, many,

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many young students from, all across the,

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the spectrum, including a good number

of evangelical students,

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came to study at Duke

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purposely just to study with what

Stanley Hauerwas.

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And and one of the reasons

why that is, is that,

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I think the evangelical subculture

was beginning to implode,

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that this pietistic vertical notion of,

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Christianity, was no longer, viable.

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And, it committed Bible believing

Christians

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believe that the gospel

had impact on the here and now.

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And there is a social dimension

of Jesus's, message.

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And yet they were also, allergic

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to, the politicization of the faith.

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So you had the Moral majority,

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and the beginning of the politicizing

of the evangelical faith.

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And there was an increasing number of,

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evangelicals that were not

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satisfied with that, culture

war approach.

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And again, Stanley, was giving, language

an, a paradigm in which to live out

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a social gospel that was rooted

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in Scripture and centered on Christ.

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And, no longer was faith to be just

privatized,

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character mattered, but so did

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community,

because you could not really grow

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into the character of Christ apart

from a community.

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So this attracted, quite a number.

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And of course, he was controversial

among fellow theologians and academics

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because he was questioning

the fundamental presuppositions

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of what the academy, had been,

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working with for a long time.

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So he attracted a lot of attention.

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And I think that's

why time, you know, dubbed him

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as, America's best theologian.

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Yeah.

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And ironically, that

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that piece came out in September of 2001.

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Like,

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right when the Twin Towers

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came down and America responded with,

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let's just say a response

that was not nonviolent by any means. And.

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Yes. And he he,

vehemently reacted to that

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and rebuked the, automatic retaliatory,

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measures that our country engaged in.

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So, he was also very prophetic.

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So if if the time magazine had

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said the most prophetic theologian,

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of of the century, that would have been

a little bit more befitting.

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Although I think Stanley, knowing him

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quite well,

would have also reacted against that,

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because he does not see himself

or try to be in any way a prophet.

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He just seeks to speak

what he understands to be the truth.

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Yeah.

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No, thanks for sketching that out.

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I'm curious.

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Do we have any way of sensing, like,

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kind of how wide the impact has has gone?

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Has this affected

American Christianity? Like it?

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So it clearly made a big impact

in at least certain

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intellectual or academic spheres.

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People found a way of talking

about things that was helpful.

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It seems to me like,

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you know, some of these Anabaptist ideas

have become

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much more popular in American Christianity

or certain segments of the church.

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Yeah, I don't know.

What are your thoughts?

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Well, Yes, I, I, I think we can trace,

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How was his influence?

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In some direct ways.

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I think that the new monastic movement,

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back in the early 2000s,

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they were heavily influenced by Hauerwas.

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And Shane

Claiborne quotes him, profusely.

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And, and and part of that was,

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gathering people in a more disciplined

rule governed,

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meaning a set of disciplines

and practices,

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a new set of, a living,

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a liturgical life in community together.

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And so I think,

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there was an influence in the mainline,

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tradition,

which I, I grew up in, in a mainline

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church, but,

have not really been involved, but,

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movements, like fresh expressions

often refer to Stanley's writings.

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So,

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and of course, among evangelicals,

as I mentioned, so,

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I think that's had some a hands and feet,

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in fact, this is one of the complaints

against Hauerwas

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because many people have been influenced

by him and made significant changes.

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And, and in a way, have decidedly turned

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either away from the institutional church

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or call it into question.

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They find out that

Stanley is a relatively staid

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individual

who is a part of a mainline church.

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And he doesn't live particularly radical,

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not like the red letter

Christians or, many

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who are attracted

to, like Shane Claiborne early.

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He, he, so, some have wondered,

you know,

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you write these things and,

and how exactly do you live them out?

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But, that's another subject.

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I don't think any of us fully live out,

what we confess,

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but, he's the first to admit that,

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he, doesn't fully put into practice

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or has not found a way to fully realize

the implications of his own teaching.

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Yeah.

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I mean, the one point on that

I do want to.

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The follow up.

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You know, he writes

some pretty strong things about, you know,

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there's no second generation Christians.

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Involuntary discipleship and all of that.

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And in

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in my tradition,

we would tie that idea pretty closely

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to, you know, baptism

is upon your own confession of faith.

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We don't bring anybody into the church

automatically and so on.

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But he, from what I know, grew up

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and remained in traditions where,

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you know, infant baptism was the norm.

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And I guess

he also has a very strong sense of,

258

00:15:33,015 --> 00:15:36,018

you know, bringing up children

as Christians and so on.

259

00:15:36,352 --> 00:15:38,729

Yeah.

260

00:15:38,729 --> 00:15:41,106

I'm a little curious

how he puts them together.

261

00:15:41,106 --> 00:15:42,149

Obviously he does.

262

00:15:42,149 --> 00:15:45,861

But, you know, for some of us,

those things jar a little bit.

263

00:15:47,321 --> 00:15:47,780

Yeah.

264

00:15:47,780 --> 00:15:50,908

You know, I'm not Stanley Hauerwas.

265

00:15:50,908 --> 00:15:54,954

I'm not sure if he's fully

put it together, Or not.

266

00:15:55,496 --> 00:15:58,165

It's interesting.

267

00:15:58,165 --> 00:16:02,711

I think one of the reasons

why he has remained,

268

00:16:03,379 --> 00:16:06,340

in the mainline is that

269

00:16:06,632 --> 00:16:10,177

he is as a strong allergic reaction

270

00:16:10,177 --> 00:16:13,180

to any kind of ecclesial sectarianism.

271

00:16:15,057 --> 00:16:19,269

He really believes

in the unity of the church

272

00:16:19,812 --> 00:16:23,774

and that we should seek

for a greater unity, in the church,

273

00:16:24,692 --> 00:16:27,778

the Anglican tradition

in which he is part of Methodist

274

00:16:28,070 --> 00:16:31,573

previous gives wiggle room

275

00:16:31,573 --> 00:16:34,576

for a greater sense of unity.

276

00:16:34,868 --> 00:16:36,495

And so I think,

277

00:16:36,495 --> 00:16:40,916

that has caused him to kind of remain,

278

00:16:41,125 --> 00:16:45,379

in the broader historic tradition.

279

00:16:46,005 --> 00:16:49,508

and then he speaks, paradoxically,

that neither

280

00:16:49,508 --> 00:16:52,469

the church nor the faith

is something we ultimately choose.

281

00:16:52,469 --> 00:16:53,470

We are chosen,

282

00:16:54,555 --> 00:16:57,141

and we are formed,

283

00:16:57,141 --> 00:17:00,769

in and through, the church,

284

00:17:01,311 --> 00:17:04,023

or even understanding of the faith.

285

00:17:04,023 --> 00:17:07,568

If we think we just freely adopt a faith

286

00:17:07,568 --> 00:17:12,740

because we alone with our Bibles

and in our own personal prayer closet,

287

00:17:13,115 --> 00:17:17,703

come up with an understanding of Christ,

that's a myth.

288

00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:22,750

There's always some version

of Christianity that we're introduced to.

289

00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:27,296

And so, if we come to Christ in

and through the church

290

00:17:27,588 --> 00:17:32,760

that we don't adopt,

we are adopted by that.

291

00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,722

Now granted,

we still have to, give our assent.

292

00:17:37,681 --> 00:17:40,142

And give ourselves to that.

293

00:17:40,142 --> 00:17:43,145

So I think there's a bit of a paradox.

294

00:17:43,145 --> 00:17:46,356

He often uses the, analogy of marriage.

295

00:17:46,899 --> 00:17:50,611

Because we are traditions,

storied people,

296

00:17:50,611 --> 00:17:54,656

and the gospel always comes through,

a tradition.

297

00:17:55,115 --> 00:18:00,162

We, maybe

have a lot less choice than we think of.

298

00:18:00,162 --> 00:18:04,124

And so he uses the, the,

analogy of marriage.

299

00:18:04,124 --> 00:18:04,750

She said, really?

300

00:18:04,750 --> 00:18:07,711

Actually, you don't fall in love.

301

00:18:07,753 --> 00:18:10,756

And then, learn to be married.

302

00:18:10,839 --> 00:18:14,468

You get married

and then you learn the way of love.

303

00:18:15,385 --> 00:18:18,388

And so this idea of something

that is over

304

00:18:18,388 --> 00:18:22,684

and above

and against you, is the posture.

305

00:18:22,684 --> 00:18:26,772

And then we learn and grow

into our understanding of what

306

00:18:26,772 --> 00:18:31,401

discipleship is and what the faith is

and what it means to bear witness.

307

00:18:31,819 --> 00:18:37,658

So it's, there's a historic objective

aspect of the church.

308

00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:41,286

And yet it also has to be owned.

309

00:18:41,453 --> 00:18:46,291

And there's a subjective

dimension to it as well.

310

00:18:47,626 --> 00:18:49,503

Yes. And I mean, to be fair,

311

00:18:49,503 --> 00:18:55,300

all of us have to, to figure out

how we navigate that as well, right?

312

00:18:55,342 --> 00:18:57,177

I mean, and

313

00:18:57,177 --> 00:19:01,723

what I mean by that is things

that we understand our own responsibility

314

00:19:01,723 --> 00:19:06,270

for God and then being with others

who may understand things differently and

315

00:19:07,312 --> 00:19:09,565

and different pieces.

316

00:19:09,565 --> 00:19:10,691

Yeah.

317

00:19:10,691 --> 00:19:12,901

that's true for my wife and I.

318

00:19:12,901 --> 00:19:15,279

We had already been Christians

for quite a long while.

319

00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:19,366

And then when we felt the call

to join the Bruderhof as an example,

320

00:19:19,783 --> 00:19:25,455

we thought before that

we knew what dedicated self sacrifice was.

321

00:19:25,455 --> 00:19:28,125

We thought we knew what submission was.

322

00:19:28,125 --> 00:19:31,545

We thought we knew what it meant

to be free

323

00:19:31,545 --> 00:19:34,548

from mammon possessions.

324

00:19:34,548 --> 00:19:36,800

We thought we knew a lot of things.

325

00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,386

And we realized that only once we joined

326

00:19:39,386 --> 00:19:44,057

did we really learn what it meant to be

a true brother and sister,

327

00:19:44,349 --> 00:19:47,352

to humble, to live a humble

328

00:19:47,352 --> 00:19:50,355

way, to learn to to serve.

329

00:19:50,564 --> 00:19:53,775

So it it was actually only

330

00:19:53,775 --> 00:19:56,945

once we committed ourselves to a community

331

00:19:56,945 --> 00:20:01,033

did we actually grow in

the depths of our, our faith.

332

00:20:04,995 --> 00:20:06,246

When I read

333

00:20:06,246 --> 00:20:10,709

this book and read through it,

much too quickly.

334

00:20:10,792 --> 00:20:12,461

Jesus changes everything.

335

00:20:12,461 --> 00:20:16,131

Is a collection

of very well worth savoring.

336

00:20:16,632 --> 00:20:21,261

But the predominant theme for me

was like,

337

00:20:21,261 --> 00:20:24,264

here's a picture of what it means

to be a disciple of Jesus.

338

00:20:24,681 --> 00:20:27,100

Both. You know, in a community.

339

00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:30,103

In a community, in,

340

00:20:30,729 --> 00:20:33,649

you know, my own kind of before the Lord.

341

00:20:33,649 --> 00:20:35,651

And that's

really what I want to tease out.

342

00:20:35,651 --> 00:20:39,154

I have a number of of questions,

but they're trying to come at that.

343

00:20:39,738 --> 00:20:41,448

What's this picture of discipleship?

344

00:20:41,448 --> 00:20:44,201

From different ways.

345

00:20:44,201 --> 00:20:47,955

But maybe even by introduction, like.

346

00:20:48,538 --> 00:20:48,872

Yeah.

347

00:20:48,872 --> 00:20:54,461

What does it mean to be, a disciple as as

Hauerwas is helping us think about it?

348

00:20:55,754 --> 00:20:57,297

Well, I think it's starting point is that,

349

00:20:58,674 --> 00:20:59,967

You can't be a disciple

350

00:20:59,967 --> 00:21:03,845

without joining others

along the road of discipleship.

351

00:21:04,972 --> 00:21:09,768

So this idea of a lone Ranger

Christian is just automatically ruled out.

352

00:21:10,018 --> 00:21:13,730

But then I think, secondly,

353

00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:17,985

because Jesus is full of grace and truth,

he is the way, the truth and the life.

354

00:21:19,069 --> 00:21:23,657

To be a disciple means to live truthfully,

355

00:21:24,449 --> 00:21:26,910

and to own up

356

00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:30,622

where we, are duplicitous,

357

00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:34,126

where we're hypocritical,

where we compromise.

358

00:21:34,543 --> 00:21:37,671

And it's not just,

359

00:21:37,754 --> 00:21:41,925

receiving the blessings of the faith.

360

00:21:41,925 --> 00:21:44,219

It's being disciplined.

361

00:21:44,219 --> 00:21:48,890

Discipleship,

being disciplined by God to be transformed

362

00:21:49,266 --> 00:21:53,395

into the way of Christ

and into his image personally.

363

00:21:53,895 --> 00:21:58,066

So part of that picture

is learning the way of peace

364

00:21:58,483 --> 00:22:03,405

because Jesus showed us the way to peace

with God and one another on the cross.

365

00:22:04,865 --> 00:22:05,532

It shows,

366

00:22:05,532 --> 00:22:09,161

or discipleship is about forgiveness,

367

00:22:10,037 --> 00:22:14,541

not just forgiveness from God,

but forgiving one another.

368

00:22:15,167 --> 00:22:19,046

For every vertical dimension of faith,

there is a course

369

00:22:19,379 --> 00:22:22,382

spawning horizontal implication,

370

00:22:22,466 --> 00:22:25,469

a practice,

371

00:22:25,969 --> 00:22:28,805

I think he, Hauerwas rightly,

372

00:22:28,805 --> 00:22:33,727

puts a great deal of emphasis

on the sermon on the Mount, in his works.

373

00:22:33,727 --> 00:22:38,774

And he, has many sermons on the sermon

on the Mount, a couple of books.

374

00:22:39,191 --> 00:22:44,321

And for, Stanley,

this is not some kind of strict ethic.

375

00:22:44,988 --> 00:22:47,991

It's actually good news.

376

00:22:48,158 --> 00:22:49,785

Good news?

377

00:22:49,785 --> 00:22:52,079

You can be liberated from your lust.

378

00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:52,913

Good news.

379

00:22:52,913 --> 00:22:57,918

You can be liberated from, procuring,

380

00:22:57,918 --> 00:23:02,172

your security,

you can be free from worry.

381

00:23:02,214 --> 00:23:03,173

Good news.

382

00:23:03,173 --> 00:23:05,634

You can be freed from your anger.

383

00:23:05,634 --> 00:23:09,679

This is a good news

declaration of what it looks like

384

00:23:10,222 --> 00:23:13,225

to be a, a citizen of his kingdom.

385

00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:13,850

good news.

386

00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:17,187

You can be freed

from the dictates of mammon.

387

00:23:17,771 --> 00:23:20,690

So, and

388

00:23:20,690 --> 00:23:25,570

and this sermon on

the Mount is given to his community.

389

00:23:25,904 --> 00:23:27,447

To the disciples.

390

00:23:27,447 --> 00:23:29,908

Yes. There were crowds listening in,

391

00:23:29,908 --> 00:23:32,911

but this is what the new Israel

is to be about.

392

00:23:33,286 --> 00:23:36,331

And this isn't a ethic,

393

00:23:36,331 --> 00:23:40,043

of gloom and doom and obligation

and hardship.

394

00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:43,713

It's actually, a message of liberation.

395

00:23:44,131 --> 00:23:48,343

So the Christian, the vision

of the Christian life is, is very full.

396

00:23:48,343 --> 00:23:52,472

Orbed, it's total it has impact now,

397

00:23:52,889 --> 00:23:56,852

it's not just a personal piety.

398

00:23:57,310 --> 00:24:01,440

It's it's,

it affects every dimension of life.

399

00:24:01,940 --> 00:24:04,943

I he is not quoted Augustine,

400

00:24:05,277 --> 00:24:11,408

that I know of, but Augustine's he

he once said,

401

00:24:11,616 --> 00:24:16,079

if Jesus is not Lord of all,

he is not Lord at all.

402

00:24:16,746 --> 00:24:20,625

And I think that generates, Stanley's

thought

403

00:24:20,625 --> 00:24:23,920

that the lordship of Christ encompasses

every dimension of life.

404

00:24:24,546 --> 00:24:28,341

And that's

what the sermon on the Mount, does.

405

00:24:29,718 --> 00:24:30,886

In the chapters,

406

00:24:30,886 --> 00:24:35,223

they, you know,

he does go into more specifics, of what,

407

00:24:35,432 --> 00:24:38,977

you know, would look like and,

and give some very nice,

408

00:24:38,977 --> 00:24:42,272

poignant examples from his own life

and, and whatnot.

409

00:24:42,898 --> 00:24:45,901

But, so it's not just some abstract ideal.

410

00:24:48,904 --> 00:24:49,821

So you mentioned

411

00:24:49,821 --> 00:24:55,243

the emphasis on truthfulness

which I picked up on a very thoroughgoing

412

00:24:55,243 --> 00:25:00,999

truthfulness

and also a very thoroughgoing emphasis on

413

00:25:02,709 --> 00:25:06,505

peace with others and not peace

414

00:25:06,505 --> 00:25:09,508

in a sort of non-confrontational way, but

415

00:25:10,091 --> 00:25:12,719

peace and seeking relationship.

416

00:25:12,719 --> 00:25:15,722

Is there a way in which

417

00:25:16,014 --> 00:25:19,643

I think he sees a deep connection

there, those almost

418

00:25:20,769 --> 00:25:24,814

two sides

of the same coin or interrelated?

419

00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:28,818

Oh, I think

I think they're definitely interrelated.

420

00:25:28,818 --> 00:25:33,031

There's a chapter in this collection,

where Stanley reflects

421

00:25:33,031 --> 00:25:37,160

on Matthew 18, where Jesus says, hey, if,

422

00:25:37,661 --> 00:25:41,706

if someone has sinned, against you,

go to him directly.

423

00:25:41,706 --> 00:25:43,291

If they listen, you’ve won a brother.

424

00:25:43,291 --> 00:25:45,919

If not, bring another brother.

425

00:25:45,919 --> 00:25:50,507

And if not, if you haven't

gotten through, bring it to the church.

426

00:25:51,591 --> 00:25:53,593

And he says, you know, it's paradoxical.

427

00:25:53,593 --> 00:25:58,014

You think, well, if you do that,

you're going to ignite a firestorm.

428

00:25:58,265 --> 00:26:01,059

But he actually, says

429

00:26:01,059 --> 00:26:05,188

this is key, being truthful

but truthfulness

430

00:26:05,188 --> 00:26:08,608

with the readiness to forgive

and to be forgiven,

431

00:26:09,025 --> 00:26:11,736

that leads to peace.

432

00:26:11,736 --> 00:26:16,366

When we're not truthful,

we may have, declared truce.

433

00:26:16,783 --> 00:26:20,370

We may live,

parallel lives with one another,

434

00:26:20,579 --> 00:26:23,957

but we do not have the fullness

of Christ's peace.

435

00:26:24,249 --> 00:26:27,586

And the fullness of Christ's

peace is far more than just the absence

436

00:26:27,586 --> 00:26:30,714

of a conflict or avoiding each other.

437

00:26:30,714 --> 00:26:32,924

So we don't have further conflict.

438

00:26:32,924 --> 00:26:37,637

It's a matter of really entering

into the fullness, the wholeness,

439

00:26:38,138 --> 00:26:43,018

of God's shalom,

which restores everything,

440

00:26:43,018 --> 00:26:47,772

makes everything well and right,

where people and relationships flourish.

441

00:26:48,815 --> 00:26:51,985

I recently asked, Stanley, I said,

you know,

442

00:26:51,985 --> 00:26:57,282

why do you think the especially

the mainline Protestant churches is dying?

443

00:26:58,241 --> 00:27:01,244

And he said, well, it

because God's killing it.

444

00:27:02,412 --> 00:27:05,206

And I thought about, well,

then why is killing?

445

00:27:05,206 --> 00:27:06,499

Why is God killing?

446

00:27:06,499 --> 00:27:09,502

Is it because we don't live truthfully

447

00:27:09,961 --> 00:27:12,714

and we don't speak truth to one another?

448

00:27:12,714 --> 00:27:16,509

And, and he uses many different kinds

of examples.

449

00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:19,512

One of his favorite ones is that,

450

00:27:19,512 --> 00:27:22,515

you know, can we be truthful with,

451

00:27:22,766 --> 00:27:27,562

how much,

capitalism has a grip on our life

452

00:27:27,896 --> 00:27:31,483

and,

consumer capitalism and, in particular,

453

00:27:31,775 --> 00:27:35,153

what about before you become

a member of the church, you declare

454

00:27:35,403 --> 00:27:38,990

what your annual income is

and how much you spend on yourself?

455

00:27:40,533 --> 00:27:41,117

And the

456

00:27:41,117 --> 00:27:44,496

spending choices,

are we willing to be disciplined?

457

00:27:44,496 --> 00:27:48,166

And Jesus speaks quite a bit

about the dangers and afflictions

458

00:27:48,166 --> 00:27:51,211

of mammon and and so forth,

and you can't serve God and mammon.

459

00:27:51,336 --> 00:27:53,963

But he says quite realistic.

460

00:27:53,963 --> 00:27:57,759

People would probably rather talk

more about their sex lives

461

00:27:57,759 --> 00:27:59,761

than about their pocketbook.

462

00:27:59,761 --> 00:28:04,891

We're afraid to tell the truth

about how much in bondage we are

463

00:28:05,058 --> 00:28:10,230

to the American nightmare of,

making money.

464

00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:13,233

Spending money

and spending it on ourselves.

465

00:28:13,233 --> 00:28:17,946

So we they are,

inextricably bound together

466

00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:21,241

because Mammon separates us from one

another.

467

00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:24,661

The haves and the have nots, those

who are upper class

468

00:28:24,661 --> 00:28:27,997

and lower class, paying services

for one another.

469

00:28:27,997 --> 00:28:28,957

We're in the church.

470

00:28:28,957 --> 00:28:33,336

Why should we be paying,

personal services to one another?

471

00:28:33,753 --> 00:28:37,340

This should be voluntary,

out of love and service to one another.

472

00:28:39,634 --> 00:28:40,719

I mean, so that leads us

473

00:28:40,719 --> 00:28:44,139

maybe to the question of,

you know, how he sees

474

00:28:44,305 --> 00:28:47,308

how the church fits in,

475

00:28:47,434 --> 00:28:48,143

to this picture.

476

00:28:48,143 --> 00:28:52,230

I think you've already started

to illuminate it with those ideas of,

477

00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:56,443

yeah, truthfulness

with each other and, and peace.

478

00:28:56,776 --> 00:29:00,363

But yeah, that's another theme,

479

00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:05,618

throughout

this book is the importance of that

480

00:29:06,244 --> 00:29:08,830

close community.

481

00:29:08,830 --> 00:29:09,080

Yeah.

482

00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,001

And we, if we want, to be,

483

00:29:13,251 --> 00:29:16,671

accountable to Christ,

who is the head of the church,

484

00:29:16,671 --> 00:29:22,719

then we need to be accountable to

and for one another, in his body.

485

00:29:23,219 --> 00:29:27,474

And so, the church is crucial.

486

00:29:27,891 --> 00:29:33,104

The church is where we learn,

who Jesus is in the scriptures

487

00:29:33,104 --> 00:29:36,107

through our worship in our liturgy.

488

00:29:36,399 --> 00:29:38,234

But it's it's where we meet

489

00:29:38,234 --> 00:29:42,405

Christ in our brother

and sister to, in unto the least of these.

490

00:29:42,405 --> 00:29:44,866

Jesus said, I'm in your midst.

491

00:29:44,866 --> 00:29:50,038

And so, the church is critical

492

00:29:50,205 --> 00:29:53,041

not only for personal formation,

493

00:29:53,041 --> 00:29:55,543

but to bear witness to God's kingdom.

494

00:29:55,543 --> 00:30:01,132

And and for Hauerwas,

Jesus is not just a personal Savior.

495

00:30:01,132 --> 00:30:04,260

He's the Auto

Basilea, the kingdom of God in person.

496

00:30:05,512 --> 00:30:06,471

Jesus

497

00:30:06,471 --> 00:30:10,183

preached the gospel of the kingdom,

the gospel of God's new order

498

00:30:10,183 --> 00:30:14,479

here on earth

that breaks in to our midst and transforms

499

00:30:14,979 --> 00:30:18,525

not just our personal lives,

but the existing social order.

500

00:30:19,150 --> 00:30:22,445

And if we don't have a way to live

501

00:30:22,445 --> 00:30:25,448

that out as the church, then we have

502

00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:29,244

we don't have much to bear witness

to above the power of Christ.

503

00:30:30,286 --> 00:30:34,123

We reduce Christ, to being somebody

504

00:30:34,123 --> 00:30:38,002

who died for our sins

and made us right with God.

505

00:30:38,002 --> 00:30:42,257

And then we're just waiting to meet God,

in the afterlife.

506

00:30:42,590 --> 00:30:46,511

And and that that's

not really great news for here and now.

507

00:30:46,761 --> 00:30:49,931

It might be great news,

at some other point.

508

00:30:50,682 --> 00:30:54,477

So it's it's also vital

the church is really vital

509

00:30:54,978 --> 00:30:57,021

because this is where we learn to be free.

510

00:30:57,981 --> 00:31:02,402

Not America, not not the, marketplace.

511

00:31:02,861 --> 00:31:07,991

Not in entertainment

and personal choices,

512

00:31:08,324 --> 00:31:11,327

we learn true freedom in the context

513

00:31:11,619 --> 00:31:15,540

of being a committed body,

one to another, ready

514

00:31:15,540 --> 00:31:18,543

to lay our lives down, one for another.

515

00:31:18,835 --> 00:31:22,964

And and if we can't do that,

then the world can't see

516

00:31:22,964 --> 00:31:25,049

what is possible in Christ.

517

00:31:25,049 --> 00:31:28,052

It can't even see what it is,

he often says

518

00:31:28,052 --> 00:31:30,889

that the world needs the church,

519

00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:33,099

so that the world can see what it is

520

00:31:33,099 --> 00:31:36,102

apart from God.

521

00:31:36,102 --> 00:31:37,979

And, so,

522

00:31:37,979 --> 00:31:43,484

it's vital that we,

we figure out what it means to be the body

523

00:31:43,484 --> 00:31:49,824

to to be the alternative, to a world

that is trying to operate,

524

00:31:50,283 --> 00:31:54,954

on very fundamentals from,

a life apart from God.

525

00:31:55,955 --> 00:31:58,958

You know, we're in rebellion against God.

526

00:31:58,958 --> 00:32:02,253

This illusion of self-sufficiency.

527

00:32:02,253 --> 00:32:03,338

We don't need God.

528

00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:05,924

And the confusion

529

00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:09,344

and the corruption and the heartache

and the war and the violence and so forth.

530

00:32:09,761 --> 00:32:12,013

So the church

531

00:32:12,013 --> 00:32:15,433

models demonstrates

this is the kind of world,

532

00:32:15,975 --> 00:32:18,978

that that is possible in Christ.

533

00:32:22,065 --> 00:32:23,399

Yeah.

534

00:32:23,399 --> 00:32:26,611

That also helps to tie in

some of the earlier

535

00:32:26,861 --> 00:32:29,864

emphasis on

536

00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:31,908

you know you can't make sense

537

00:32:31,908 --> 00:32:35,328

of Christianity as well.

538

00:32:35,328 --> 00:32:37,997

Here's a set of ethics

that you can put out to the world.

539

00:32:37,997 --> 00:32:41,501

Just as this is the way to live

because they don't

540

00:32:42,210 --> 00:32:45,380

they don't actually make sense

or they can't be understood until it's,

541

00:32:46,589 --> 00:32:50,718

you know, here is Jesus himself

and the people who

542

00:32:51,761 --> 00:32:54,555

who belong to him and each other.

543

00:32:54,555 --> 00:32:56,307

And there's that picture.

544

00:32:56,307 --> 00:32:58,935

Yeah, yeah.

Ethics is always within a story.

545

00:32:58,935 --> 00:33:00,853

So which story are you living out?

546

00:33:00,853 --> 00:33:04,357

Are you living out the narrative

that the world says leads

547

00:33:04,357 --> 00:33:08,736

to prosperity, fulfillment,

and happiness to the good life?

548

00:33:09,278 --> 00:33:12,281

Or are you going to adopt Jesus’ story,

as your own?

549

00:33:12,365 --> 00:33:17,578

And only within that story

can we make sense of his teaching,

550

00:33:17,829 --> 00:33:20,832

because you can't separate the teaching

from the teacher.

551

00:33:21,541 --> 00:33:22,875

And this is really important.

552

00:33:22,875 --> 00:33:25,837

Jesus didn't teach some universal truths

553

00:33:26,170 --> 00:33:30,758

that smart people contemplate and go,

oh yes, that's right.

554

00:33:30,883 --> 00:33:33,636

Turn the other cheek.

That's a good strategy.

555

00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:38,057

You know,

any rational person can discover that

556

00:33:38,057 --> 00:33:42,729

and other religious traditions

also maybe, assert the same thing.

557

00:33:43,062 --> 00:33:46,983

No, we don't really understand

what that means, apart from who Christ is

558

00:33:46,983 --> 00:33:47,775

and how he lived.

559

00:33:47,775 --> 00:33:48,943

That out,

the particularity of following Jesus.

560

00:33:48,943 --> 00:33:52,030

That out,

the particularity of following Jesus.

561

00:33:52,030 --> 00:33:55,491

And that's why

this book centers on discipleship.

562

00:33:55,491 --> 00:34:00,663

It's not an, the A book on Jesus's ethic.

563

00:34:01,622 --> 00:34:03,374

It is.

564

00:34:03,374 --> 00:34:06,252

It's about Jesus and the kingdom

565

00:34:06,252 --> 00:34:09,881

that, breaks in through him

566

00:34:10,131 --> 00:34:13,134

and into the church today.

567

00:34:13,885 --> 00:34:14,135

Yeah.

568

00:34:14,135 --> 00:34:15,762

And you mentioned strategy there.

569

00:34:15,762 --> 00:34:20,016

So, Hauerwas tells us

570

00:34:20,016 --> 00:34:23,019

that nonviolence is not optional for us.

571

00:34:23,519 --> 00:34:27,148

But nonviolence is also not a strategy.

572

00:34:27,523 --> 00:34:30,818

He says, you want to clarify that?

573

00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,114

Yes. For for him, nonviolence is

574

00:34:35,114 --> 00:34:38,534

is not a way to improve the world.

575

00:34:39,452 --> 00:34:43,498

It is not a way to end, war or,

576

00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:47,794

lessen on the likelihood of war.

577

00:34:48,252 --> 00:34:52,840

Nonviolence is the fruit

of being faithful to the way of Jesus.

578

00:34:53,508 --> 00:34:57,428

It will bear fruit,

but it can also bear great suffering.

579

00:34:57,929 --> 00:35:02,767

There's no guarantee

that you will get your, head cut off.

580

00:35:03,518 --> 00:35:06,562

It doesn't always work

in a worldly point of view,

581

00:35:06,938 --> 00:35:10,149

but we are faithful, to the way of Christ

582

00:35:10,149 --> 00:35:13,152

because this is how God conquers evil.

583

00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:16,322

We don't have to be in control.

584

00:35:16,322 --> 00:35:17,907

God is in control.

585

00:35:17,907 --> 00:35:22,870

We take up arms because we feel it's

it's up to us to make things right.

586

00:35:23,371 --> 00:35:26,582

And we take desperate measures

to make things right.

587

00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:32,421

Our faith

is, is placed in the one who sovereignly,

588

00:35:33,923 --> 00:35:36,926

restores all things through the cross.

589

00:35:37,343 --> 00:35:38,594

He doesn't skirt the cross.

590

00:35:38,594 --> 00:35:42,181

It's always through the cross

of self-sacrificial love.

591

00:35:42,807 --> 00:35:45,059

So it's not a strategy.

592

00:35:45,059 --> 00:35:49,689

It doesn't mean

we can't lend, a word of advice,

593

00:35:50,064 --> 00:35:53,067

or some wisdom to the world

594

00:35:53,192 --> 00:35:56,529

to help lessen, the cycle of violence.

595

00:35:57,405 --> 00:36:00,408

It doesn't mean

we ignore the need of the world.

596

00:36:00,658 --> 00:36:05,163

But, it is not a strategy.

597

00:36:05,163 --> 00:36:06,747

And that's not why we follow it.

598

00:36:06,747 --> 00:36:08,416

We we follow.

599

00:36:08,416 --> 00:36:10,168

We don't actually don't

follow nonviolence.

600

00:36:10,168 --> 00:36:11,502

We follow the way of Christ.

601

00:36:11,502 --> 00:36:13,254

We follow Christ.

602

00:36:13,254 --> 00:36:17,091

And part of

that is also rooted in our love of enemy.

603

00:36:17,884 --> 00:36:20,970

While we were yet sinners, God loved us.

604

00:36:22,847 --> 00:36:27,351

And so, the the way to to win the enemy

605

00:36:27,768 --> 00:36:31,314

or the way to express God's love to

the enemy

606

00:36:31,647 --> 00:36:34,650

is to actually love the enemy.

607

00:36:34,817 --> 00:36:39,780

Whether they are won by that love

or not is up to God that this is,

608

00:36:40,114 --> 00:36:46,120

an unconditional, way

to give witness to to the love of God.

609

00:36:47,413 --> 00:36:47,830

Yeah.

610

00:36:47,830 --> 00:36:48,956

Thanks.

611

00:36:48,956 --> 00:36:51,792

Thanks for that.

612

00:36:51,792 --> 00:36:54,795

So and I think, you know,

thinking back to my own

613

00:36:55,546 --> 00:36:58,549

own circles and,

614

00:36:58,633 --> 00:37:01,636

and tradition,

you know, Anabaptist, Mennonite,

615

00:37:02,178 --> 00:37:06,641

you know,

we've had a sense of a similar emphasis.

616

00:37:06,724 --> 00:37:09,727

We said we don't go to war, but

617

00:37:10,394 --> 00:37:14,440

we're not naive enough

to tell the government that, you know,

618

00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,485

they they could have a strategy of peace

that would avoid,

619

00:37:19,237 --> 00:37:21,989

avoid problems or difficulty or whatever.

620

00:37:21,989 --> 00:37:25,785

And, you know, a couple, Well,

one way that

621

00:37:25,785 --> 00:37:30,498

that has come out is

we sometimes talk about being apolitical

622

00:37:31,749 --> 00:37:34,752

and not being political, because

623

00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,506

because we're not using those kinds

of strategies of violence

624

00:37:38,506 --> 00:37:42,802

or strategies of electoral politics

or whatever.

625

00:37:44,637 --> 00:37:47,890

But then, a quote here from the book

626

00:37:48,266 --> 00:37:52,144

and I'm picking up on this word

political, Hauerwas writes,

627

00:37:53,271 --> 00:37:56,607

to worship Jesus is itself a politics,

628

00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,403

a politics that subverts the status quo.

629

00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,283

So if we don't have strategies

and we're not exercising,

630

00:38:05,283 --> 00:38:08,286

you know, Jesus teachings as a strategy,

631

00:38:08,452 --> 00:38:11,455

what kind of politics is this?

632

00:38:11,455 --> 00:38:13,624

Yeah. What kind of politics?

633

00:38:13,624 --> 00:38:16,210

To subverts the status quo.

634

00:38:16,210 --> 00:38:18,337

Well, Jesus models the politics. Okay?

635

00:38:18,337 --> 00:38:23,384

He takes up a towel, and washes feet.

636

00:38:24,927 --> 00:38:29,515

That's the beginning of

of God's politics.

637

00:38:29,598 --> 00:38:31,976

The way of humility.

638

00:38:31,976 --> 00:38:35,229

We don't, solve,

639

00:38:35,688 --> 00:38:41,193

our problems with each other,

nor do we solve our problems,

640

00:38:41,193 --> 00:38:47,325

that we confront socially by

by way of coercion or having power over.

641

00:38:47,825 --> 00:38:51,579

It is actually in the humble service

642

00:38:52,204 --> 00:38:54,707

of, considerate,

643

00:38:54,707 --> 00:38:58,627

considering the interest of others

above our own.

644

00:38:59,378 --> 00:39:03,758

Now that's the so the exact opposite

of the world's politics.

645

00:39:04,175 --> 00:39:09,847

Most people are voting, according

to their perceived self-interest.

646

00:39:09,847 --> 00:39:13,476

And what party

will serve their self-interest.

647

00:39:13,476 --> 00:39:15,353

Now, some do think that,

648

00:39:15,353 --> 00:39:18,898

serving a particular party

will serve the interest of the country,

649

00:39:19,106 --> 00:39:23,235

not just their own, but, of course,

implicit in that is that if it serves

650

00:39:23,235 --> 00:39:27,490

the interests of the country

that serves my own, and why that country,

651

00:39:27,907 --> 00:39:32,578

Hauerwas is very critical

of any form of Christian nationalism.

652

00:39:32,995 --> 00:39:36,707

Our allegiance is to King

Jesus and the kingdom of God,

653

00:39:36,749 --> 00:39:41,045

which is a transnational, rulership of God

on earth.

654

00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:45,007

That not only transcends,

but includes all peoples.

655

00:39:45,466 --> 00:39:49,678

So to worship

Jesus is a kind of politics.

656

00:39:49,678 --> 00:39:53,349

It's not just a pious set of exercises

657

00:39:53,808 --> 00:39:57,478

that are highly personal and removed.

658

00:39:58,020 --> 00:40:00,773

It gives expression.

659

00:40:00,773 --> 00:40:04,360

Another politics is that,

660

00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,780

there will not be rich nor poor.

661

00:40:08,572 --> 00:40:12,868

There's not going to be,

social stratification.

662

00:40:13,494 --> 00:40:17,998

This is quite different

than the way the world operates.

663

00:40:18,499 --> 00:40:22,211

And to say we worship Jesus means

664

00:40:22,211 --> 00:40:25,464

we give our full allegiance to him

665

00:40:25,965 --> 00:40:28,968

and to the way

in which he reigns in the world,

666

00:40:29,218 --> 00:40:32,096

and that will incarnate itself in

667

00:40:32,096 --> 00:40:35,099

very public, social, concrete ways.

668

00:40:35,349 --> 00:40:37,184

And it will be in contradistinction.

669

00:40:37,184 --> 00:40:40,187

And then sometimes

it will come into conflict

670

00:40:40,396 --> 00:40:43,399

with the governments of men.

671

00:40:43,607 --> 00:40:47,862

And that's one and part of the reason

672

00:40:47,945 --> 00:40:51,532

might come into overt conflict might be

673

00:40:51,866 --> 00:40:56,620

whether the state it perceives

such a witness as a threat or not.

674

00:40:57,788 --> 00:40:58,873

And it's.

675

00:40:58,873 --> 00:41:01,876

You refer to it as politics because it is

676

00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,628

how we live together or what it means

677

00:41:04,628 --> 00:41:07,631

to be a community and,

678

00:41:08,924 --> 00:41:12,094

how we order our life,

how we handle money, all of these things.

679

00:41:12,094 --> 00:41:14,472

Yeah. How we make decisions together.

680

00:41:14,472 --> 00:41:19,268

And and how we navigate a social life

together.

681

00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,061

That is a kind of politic.

682

00:41:21,061 --> 00:41:22,521

But it's not Partizan politics.

683

00:41:22,521 --> 00:41:24,482

It's not power politics.

684

00:41:24,482 --> 00:41:27,485

So it's very different,

685

00:41:27,735 --> 00:41:31,614

than how we usually use the word

politics.

686

00:41:33,532 --> 00:41:34,033

Yeah.

687

00:41:34,033 --> 00:41:36,994

I mean, as kind of closing here.

688

00:41:36,994 --> 00:41:39,497

A couple quotes

689

00:41:39,497 --> 00:41:43,125

and I'll read here

and then a few comments on them.

690

00:41:43,792 --> 00:41:46,253

The one that struck me from this book,

691

00:41:46,253 --> 00:41:49,673

disciples of Christ

are those who journey forth

692

00:41:49,673 --> 00:41:53,135

from the conventional to base

their lives on the nature of God

693

00:41:53,802 --> 00:41:57,056

to be perfect

as your heavenly father is perfect.

694

00:41:58,307 --> 00:42:00,351

And then the other one that

695

00:42:00,351 --> 00:42:03,479

that really caught my attention, was.

696

00:42:05,898 --> 00:42:06,857

We believe that

697

00:42:06,857 --> 00:42:09,860

the revolution has happened,

and we are It.

698

00:42:10,778 --> 00:42:13,781

Yeah, both of those are kind of.

699

00:42:14,532 --> 00:42:15,866

They're enigmatic.

700

00:42:15,866 --> 00:42:18,911

They're very bold claims

about what it means

701

00:42:18,911 --> 00:42:22,039

to be a Christian and the effect on it.

702

00:42:22,373 --> 00:42:24,750

Effect on us.

703

00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:25,459

Yeah.

704

00:42:25,459 --> 00:42:28,003

And I think it's important to understand

that when.

705

00:42:28,003 --> 00:42:32,508

When House talks about perfection, he's

referring to the perfection

706

00:42:33,384 --> 00:42:35,511

that Jesus is referring to.

707

00:42:35,511 --> 00:42:39,098

And if you look in the sermon on the

Mount, be perfect as your heavenly father.

708

00:42:40,099 --> 00:42:43,018

Be indiscriminate in your love.

709

00:42:43,018 --> 00:42:46,814

The sun shines on both the good

and the evil.

710

00:42:47,231 --> 00:42:50,818

We are called to love

not just our friends who pay us back,

711

00:42:50,818 --> 00:42:54,738

but our enemies be indiscriminate,

unconditional in your love.

712

00:42:55,281 --> 00:42:57,283

It's not about being sinless.

713

00:42:57,283 --> 00:43:01,495

It's not, about, being, impeccable.

714

00:43:01,912 --> 00:43:04,582

Morally, we still stand under the cross.

715

00:43:04,582 --> 00:43:07,876

And I think that, unfortunately,

in some Anabaptist

716

00:43:07,876 --> 00:43:10,879

traditions, the striving to be perfect,

717

00:43:13,340 --> 00:43:15,342

there's, there's a misunderstanding

of what

718

00:43:15,342 --> 00:43:19,263

that is, and they,

they miss, the essence.

719

00:43:19,263 --> 00:43:22,266

And that is the the love of Christ.

720

00:43:22,433 --> 00:43:26,478

And, and that's the revolution.

721

00:43:27,521 --> 00:43:29,315

That is the revolution.

722

00:43:29,315 --> 00:43:32,318

Here is a people who love,

723

00:43:33,152 --> 00:43:35,487

and they take great sacrifice.

724

00:43:35,487 --> 00:43:38,657

It takes great humility. It,

725

00:43:40,284 --> 00:43:43,037

it it is something that really can

726

00:43:43,037 --> 00:43:47,333

only come about by a perfection

that is not of our own.

727

00:43:47,833 --> 00:43:51,211

It's revealed in Christ

and through the Holy Spirit

728

00:43:51,629 --> 00:43:56,383

that, remember, holy means set apart

the spirit that works in our midst,

729

00:43:56,383 --> 00:44:00,137

that sets us apart, for a new world

730

00:44:00,137 --> 00:44:03,641

that is possible gives us the power

and the grace to do that.

731

00:44:03,641 --> 00:44:06,018

It's not from ourselves, but.

732

00:44:06,018 --> 00:44:09,063

But this is,

what we're not only called to,

733

00:44:09,063 --> 00:44:13,275

but we are actually privileged

to experience in Christ.

734

00:44:13,484 --> 00:44:16,070

And it's what we want to share with

the world.

735

00:44:16,070 --> 00:44:21,408

There is a different new kind of world

that is possible, but it's in Christ

736

00:44:21,825 --> 00:44:25,704

because Jesus can and does

change everything.

737

00:44:26,372 --> 00:44:28,582

We don't change everything.

738

00:44:28,582 --> 00:44:31,168

Our piety does not change everything.

739

00:44:31,168 --> 00:44:34,338

Our theology does not change everything.

740

00:44:34,421 --> 00:44:40,344

Christ changes everything and makes

a new kind of life together possible.

741

00:44:42,054 --> 00:44:44,640

And there we ended

up right back at the title of the book,

742

00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:49,353

which is Jesus Changes Everything,

which we will be sure to link

743

00:44:49,561 --> 00:44:52,564

in our description and all of that.

744

00:44:53,107 --> 00:44:53,524

Yeah.

745

00:44:53,524 --> 00:44:55,818

Thank you, Charles, for joining us.

746

00:44:55,818 --> 00:45:00,531

And yeah, helping us to think

through some of these things.

747

00:45:00,531 --> 00:45:03,534

And yeah, for the work you put into,

748

00:45:03,951 --> 00:45:07,663

arranging this,

collection from Hauerwas.

749

00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,500

I guess you took stuff he written,

wrote earlier and then worked with him to,

750

00:45:12,292 --> 00:45:16,547

kind of condense it and put it together

into this book, if I understand.

751

00:45:16,547 --> 00:45:17,423

Right.

752

00:45:17,423 --> 00:45:17,756

Yeah.

753

00:45:17,756 --> 00:45:20,134

This book is not written for the Academy.

754

00:45:20,134 --> 00:45:24,388

I worked with Stanley

on a lot of his other writings, and we.

755

00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,598

We rework them.

756

00:45:26,598 --> 00:45:29,601

It made them a bit more accessible.

757

00:45:29,893 --> 00:45:32,604

And we made sure that,

758

00:45:32,604 --> 00:45:37,192

the theme of following

Jesus, the theme of Jesus changing

759

00:45:37,192 --> 00:45:42,406

everything really comes through,

the entirety of these, these pages.

760

00:45:43,490 --> 00:45:45,159

So, and

761

00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:49,580

just for your listeners,

we do have a, a group study

762

00:45:49,580 --> 00:45:54,334

guide online through Plough

that they can download to help them.

763

00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:59,923

So it's, it's a, it's a great book

to read personally, but it's even better

764

00:45:59,923 --> 00:46:03,761

if you can find a group of people to,

to to read it together.

765

00:46:03,761 --> 00:46:06,764

The chapters are short, as you know.

766

00:46:07,347 --> 00:46:08,557

They're they're crisp.

767

00:46:08,557 --> 00:46:10,934

But they're packed full.

768

00:46:10,934 --> 00:46:15,022

And you will feel,

the heart of Stanley Hauerwas,

769

00:46:15,230 --> 00:46:19,067

not just the brilliance of his mind

and his ability to articulate

770

00:46:19,568 --> 00:46:25,240

who Jesus is and and,

what he, lived for.

771

00:46:27,117 --> 00:46:28,035

Yeah.

772

00:46:28,035 --> 00:46:28,619

Thank you.

773

00:46:28,619 --> 00:46:30,913

Thanks again for joining us.

774

00:46:30,913 --> 00:46:34,166

Well, thank you, for this chance

to to be with you.

775

00:46:34,166 --> 00:46:35,167

I wish you all the best.

776

00:46:36,668 --> 00:46:39,671

Thanks for joining us for this episode

of Anabaptist Perspectives.

777

00:46:39,922 --> 00:46:43,300

Our mission is to encourage allegiance

to Jesus sacrificial kingdom.

778

00:46:43,842 --> 00:46:47,554

Our resources include this podcast,

written essays,

779

00:46:47,888 --> 00:46:52,017

a lecture series by Frank Reed

which is called developing as a servant.

780

00:46:52,643 --> 00:46:56,814

And we're currently producing

a documentary series on the history

781

00:46:56,814 --> 00:47:02,110

of Anabaptism, specifically the origins

in the Reformation era,

782

00:47:02,110 --> 00:47:06,114

which will be filmed on site

at various locations in Europe.

783

00:47:07,032 --> 00:47:11,954

You can find these resources and more

information at AnabaptistPerspectives.Org.