0:00:05.4 VB: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vickie Brett.

0:00:09.2 AS: I'm Amanda Selogie. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.5 VB: Each week we're gonna explore new topics, which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:24.3 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

0:00:33.9 VB: Welcome back listeners. This school year, we had two great guests that you guys. Were able to listen to, Tim Adams, where you just kind of talked about anything and everything under the sun of special education. After talking about the specific case we had him on from the Washington Journal article. And then we had Dr. Connie McReynolds, and we just kind of wanted to expand on what she was talking about in regards to something that we often see when kiddos either have the diagnosis of autism and/or ADHD, but central auditory processing deficits. Which I feel like this has been a battle very early on that you've been fighting. I feel like you had some of these cases earlier on in our firm's history. We've been just like gobbling up all the information that we could because we just... Districts bark at us when we typically ask for a central auditory processing evaluation.

0:01:35.7 AS: I do feel that districts have come around more in the last, I don't know, maybe, I guess four years since COVID.

0:01:43.1 VB: Yeah. Four or five years. Yeah.

0:01:43.8 AS: Like I feel like a long time ago I had kiddos who, looking at auditory processing assessments or what we would call CAPD assessments, Central Auditory Processing Disorder assessments. I'd get school districts who would immediately put up a front and say, this is a medical disorder. It's under good education. If it's not education related, we're not obligated. However, when you look at the actual data and the science and the research on central auditory processing disorder, the impact that this diagnosis has on education is pretty profound. We need to look at it from the sense of yes, is central auditory processing disorder a medical diagnosis? Yes. But so is autism. So is ADHD. So the same way that school districts, yes, you cannot diagnose, but you can still, and you are still obligated to look into all areas of unique need of a child. And auditory processing is certainly one of those.

0:02:48.0 VB: And I think that a lot of people don't understand what it is. And to play devil's advocate a little bit asking you, but I know the answer, but for the benefit of our listeners, if my child can hear fine, like there's not gonna be, it's, they don't have a hard of hearing, disability. Like why am I even, like, what would you say to a client that said, or a district that said, this child can hear perfectly, it's fine. Like we don't need to...

0:03:15.9 AS: And that is generally the pushback other than the, it's a medical diagnosis. The fact is they can hear just fine. So central auditory processing is what the brain does with what the ears hear. Our auditory system is very complex. So it first must detect the sound. So that's the hearing. And then they have to process the information before we can understand it. So children that have central auditory processing disorder, they typically hear normally. So on all the hearing screenings we do in the schools and with the pediatricians, there's usually no concerns. But they do have a difficult time processing what they hear. They often have trouble recognizing the slight differences in the way some similar words sound when there's background. And one of the great examples I've given to clients who have given me that answer, that response, when I've brought it up as like we might need to look into this, is I say, okay, you tell Johnny to go up to their room, grab their backpack, get a pen out of their backpack and come back down.

0:04:16.1 AS: They go to their room and they forget everything that they were asked to do. That's one side of it. The other side of it is where we see it impacting. Like, so obviously that's a functional, like following directions and stuff can impact schooling, but the other way it really impacts schooling that I see a lot with kiddos is, where it impacts their ability to apply application of content. So applying the information they're hearing where they may be listening to the teacher, paying attention, it's not necessarily an attention piece. And to a naked eye, the kid looks like they're paying attention. They may even be taking...

0:04:53.0 VB: And they could have excellent attention. I had a client that had excellent attention. But it's not about that.

0:04:58.4 AS: Right. And they might be taking notes. And you might look at their notes and their notes write verbatim what the teacher says. And I've had clients like this, where they write verbatim, they're taking good notes, but then when they go to do the worksheet or they go to study for that test, they have no idea. They are answering questions and they're answering one word answers on their worksheets or they are not able to answer at all. And in some of those cases, I get schools and parents that concerns about writing. And they look at it from the sense of, well, they just have trouble writing. Is it a fine motor issue or is it? And we create goals in writing and we're forgetting that. And sometimes they implement things like writing without tears and like programs like that saying, let's just focus on handwriting or let's just focus on, maybe we get a computer and they're missing that set piece of like the information came in their ear, but then they can't process it to then apply it to the learning or the studying and being able to understand it. And...

0:06:01.3 VB: That's how it affects academic performance. And we typically see it in reading, writing, or math.

0:06:05.9 AS: Yeah. And we see some of those kiddos really good with memory sometimes. Where like the team will try to say things like, their processing is fine because when I ask them to repeat things, they have no problem repeating it. And it's like, well, that's a short-term memory thing. Or even a long-term memory, memory recall, that's not what we're talking about here. Processing information and being able to problem solve or analyze, that's a very different skill. So when we look at like why we might want to do an evaluation. I tell schools all the time, unless we get to this root issue, if we put, writing supports or we do technology of an assessment or computer, or we have someone take notes for them, it's not really solving the underlying issue. And sometimes teams will see this as attention deficits because they're like, oh, well they didn't understand the material because they didn't pay attention. And that's masking the problem as well. So we thought it was really important for us to kind of do a deeper dive into this, the assessment and then like, okay, let's say you get an evaluation that says your child has a central auditory processing disorder. Where do you go from here?

0:07:18.7 VB: And I think what is really important for our listeners to understand is that yes, there are evaluations out there. We prefer when an audiologist does the evaluation so that, there's different kind of pitch discrimination and temporal ordering and sequencing for two-tone patterns, which like, I'm reading that from an evaluation from one of my kiddos and it's like, I don't know what that means. I know the words, right? But when you have an audiologist and somebody that can articulate and really kind of paint a picture for the people that are to be implementing these services, or more importantly accommodations, then I think you can actually get proper implementation. Because just kind of glancing at what some of the, one of the things that you had said was, they're paying attention, it looks like it, but these types of kiddos need a reduction in background noise. And so you can't always provide a quiet work area, but that's usually an accommodation and that's like being taken to the learning center or whatever, right?

0:08:24.3 VB: But also strategic seating, like have them away from distractors like doors or windows or even other noisy kids. But teachers often see these and it's like, we're already doing that. We're already doing that. But if you don't really understand like why this particular child may need it in a different way than just the traditional, like they're seated up right in front of me, because they do have really great attention. But if you're not really kind of honing in on what is the missing piece, like you had said, they're taking the information in, they are receiving it, but when they're processing it, something is like there's, the loop is not completed. And I think that an audiologist is better able to kind of explain that. Like obviously the school psychologist can do the evaluation. We've had many school psychologists that have done the evaluation and have provided additional accommodations. But once everybody is there and kind of understands, and one of the reasons why we wanted to have this conversation was so that parents, you know this is the beginning of the school year. You wanna get those evaluation requests in. Some kids have been in since August 5th, some started the 12th. So...

0:09:32.3 AS: I'm sorry next week?

0:09:34.0 VB: Some starting next week. I know it's all over the park, but...

0:09:36.8 AS: But it's important to note that like the reason why we recommend the audiologist is because the school district team, school psychologist cannot diagnose a student with a central auditory processing disorder. They may be able to do some rating scales and some protocols that can say that it's like...

0:09:52.8 VB: To show the impact.

0:09:53.5 AS: Of processing deficit, but they can't actually diagnose. And the other piece to it is there's a lot of overlap between central auditory processing disorder and other processing disorders such as ADHD. And I've had a couple of cases where the child has had a diagnosis of ADHD and they try medication, it doesn't work. They try accommodations, it doesn't work. And then a couple years later they get central auditory processing disorder assessment. And they follow certain therapies and accommodations. It's like night and day and it's like this child is misdiagnosed. And so it's really important that the person that is looking at it is not looking at this information piecemeal and I've told this to a number of school districts and my clients that when there is one area of deficit in the area of processing, it is likely that there is another area of that processing where they may overlap. So when we're looking at attention processing, language processing, auditory processing, sensory processing, visual processing. Looking at all of these things, not piecemeal, but really looking at them in conjunction with each other to really decipher where is the challenge? Is there overlap and we're misdiagnosing or is there a strength in one of these that can help pick up the slack of the other one.

0:11:09.8 AS: We often think about kids who have hard time with listening comprehension. We give them visual cues. And visual cues can help that. Visual processing kids that are visual learners versus auditory learners can help, but like truly understanding the needs of that child is important. Like I'll tell you one thing I learned about myself that I think I kind of knew but I didn't really piece together like through my education, was that I'm a very auditory learner when it comes to just straight, like information memory, like auditory memory. I can remember things people said all the time, but if I'm trying to understand a more complex topic, I have to see it. I need it in front of me. So like if I'm trying to understand if a goal in an IEP meeting is like measurable and it's got all the things that needs to be, and it's clear if I hear it, I do have like, I might remember what the person said, but it takes me a little bit longer, but if I see it, it's very easy.

0:12:06.4 AS: So those are two different things that are, that like if I were to say I'm an auditory learner or a visual learner, that's not really the case, right? My auditory memory is very good, but my visual comprehension is better. And so same with kiddos, is that if we're not looking at how these impact each other and how it impacts their learning, and I brought up ADH as a typical and we did earlier as like a typical like crossover. And I wanted to kind of run through a few of the typical signs that audiologists, like if your child experiences some of these signs, it might be time to look into this evaluation. And you'll hear that some of these are very much crossover with ADHD. So a tendency to be easily distracted, academic difficulties including reading, spelling, or learning problems, difficulty determining the source of a signal or sound. Difficulty following directions, difficulty following rapid speech, difficulty learning a foreign language or novel speech materials, especially like technical language. Difficulty maintaining attention, difficulty or inability to detect the changes in rhythm, stress or intonation of speech.

0:13:11.1 AS: So sometimes that's like sarcasm. That's like a very different way that like we speak than like normal speak. That's difficult for these kiddos. Difficulty understanding speech when there's competing background noise, frequent requests to repeat or rephrase information. Inconsistent or inappropriate responses to request for information. So those kiddos where the teacher asks a question and the kid responds, but it's like a completely off topic thing for singing musical ability or appreciation of music. So those are some things that like if you listen to half of those, we see that as, oh, maybe we have ADHD. And so it's important to really dig deeper. And most of the evaluations I see done by school psychologists and school district assessments, don't dig that deep.

0:13:57.3 VB: No, definitely not. And I think one of the things that often gets lumped in with kiddos that have hard of hearing is the request for an FM system or the teacher. So that's where the teacher would wear a microphone and then there would be like a speaker typically closer to the student that needs it or the different examples of that product do different things. 'Cause some are like super fancy and the child's wearing headphones themselves and it can like hear. But often times when we have the device that has the amplifier, that just helps all kids especially if there's a soft spoken teacher. And so there are, different things that can work that just because you oftentimes see FM devices for kiddos that are hard of hearing doesn't mean that you can't use those same devices for kiddos that have different types of learning challenges.

0:14:47.9 VB: I think that's one of the reasons why we kind of wanted to talk through some strategies as well because an accommodation that we often see is giving, clear communication and it's like teacher is like I am clear, but a better example is either keeping the message short or like having the punchline first. What is the reason for you the child to be listening to me? I'm going to give you three things you need for the test. Ready? 1, 2, 3. So it's that front load. And we say that all the time. Oh, you gotta front load the kid. Well what does that mean? When we give the suggestion of like, okay, he should have a copy of the teacher's notes. It's like, well he's not gonna be, he's not gonna write it down then. And it's like, that's not the purpose. The child will need to know what they need to do.

0:15:35.3 VB: That helps them, especially because oftentimes visualization is better for the child because they have the auditory processing deficit or disorder. One other thing that I've seen as a recommendation is showing them the finished product, right? Like through that they can kind of, that child knows what you want as a teacher. Some teachers, I want you to do a book report and I want you to have this and like that's great and that might not be something that you as a teacher would even think would be helpful to a kid with CAPD, but it absolutely is. And so then, being able to kind of explain these broader, chunking, okay, well what is that going to look like? Okay, can we show the order, the sequence of how we need to do things, right? This child's gonna need a little bit more because I cannot tell how often, especially in high school, we go into these IEP meetings and we're asking for these things.

0:16:33.7 VB: Well, he could take a picture of it on his phone and it's like, okay, the child's gonna need a little bit more than just writing it in their agenda or just taking a picture on the phone. They need to actually be able to process the information and they may need the teacher's notes to do that. They may need the finished product to kind of get an image of it so that they know.

0:16:53.8 AS: Well, and the teacher notes brings up a good point. We often get teachers, especially when we're in like middle school and high school and it's general education who they don't wanna give notes because they feel like, oh well if the child has trouble paying attention, we give them the notes, then they have no reason to pay attention. Well, it's like...

0:17:13.0 VB: Yes.

0:17:13.1 AS: Well, it's not about that. It's about if they can read along while you're talking. They have that visual and auditory pairing, which often helps that processing piece. And so sometimes what I've done with older kiddos is say, put the notes but leave blanks.

0:17:32.5 VB: Yes. Like blanks, yeah.

0:17:33.6 AS: Where like if you, let's say you give it to the child like an hour before, or the day before and they can take a look and they can see, okay, these are the blanks, these are the holes, this is something I need to listen for. It's helping teach them how to have those better listening comprehension and helping them with that processing. So not only are you helping them make sure that they have the material to then study for the test, but you're actually helping improve their listening comprehension. One of the things that I've had kiddos who have central auditory processing disorder, they've gone through, there's multiple programs, but one of the ones that I've dealt with more is called Hear Builder.

0:18:14.0 VB: Oh yes.

0:18:14.1 AS: It's basically like an online like literacy program, but it's specifically designed for listening comprehension and auditory processing. And it's like a program that's like, it's research based. It's very interactive. There's obviously a lot of programs like this, but the idea is that there's a lot of accommodations we can do. And Vickie listed off a bunch of them just now. But it's even better if we're able to help improve the child's processing and improve their skills, because then they won't always need these accommodations as they get older. And so if we can catch this early on when they're elementary school, we may not need these accommodations in middle school and high school because we, as we know the brain synopsis, we can change them, we can improve, we can repair. And the younger we do that, the better off that child is. So again, really important that we're really looking into not just does the child have an impairment, but really how is it impacting them in the classroom? How can we help them? And that's why we need to dig deeper sometimes with these assessments. Like just because a school psychologist did one rating scale doesn't mean anything really.

0:19:24.8 VB: The purpose behind having this conversation is so that parents are more aware because if you have the IEP, you have the accommodations, you have the services and things are still not improving in the way that you would think that they should, then it's time to dig deeper, because this always happens, right? Parents will be like, it's been the same thing. Or and we look back and it's like they're changing the goals, they're adding services, but it's like there's still a disconnect and it's because the district doesn't have all the information and the parent, right? They don't know that this may be something that that exists. And so then it's like, alright then we need to dig in, get that information and then more often than not, it's what they didn't do with that information that we get involved.

0:20:11.6 VB: But you're able to kind of at least get them on the same page and acknowledge, okay, there's some of these things that we need to dig in deeper and really understand. I think that would help with the implementation of certain accommodations that we see and really get the team to acknowledge, okay, how are these, 'cause this is the type of disorder where, similar to attention deficit disorder, what is the deficit attention? What is the deficit here? Auditory. And as Amanda had explained, unlike other disabilities that we deal with, there can be room for improvement. So that kiddo that I had kind of read aloud, some of the deficits that he had within a year of receiving a program like Amanda had referenced, he was able to make improvements with pitch discrimination with a severe deficit before and simple orderly or ordering and sequencing for two-tone patterns.

0:21:08.8 VB: The only way that was gonna happen is if they, he had specific exercises that he was working on that kind of helped improve the way his mind was processing that information. So if you have any further questions about this, please let us know. I believe we are gonna dip back into this with an audiologist or we're looking for someone, if you're an audiologist, you'd like to speak to us more about some of the accommodations and/or services that districts should be implementing, reach out to us and we hope that you guys are hanging in there with the beginning of the school year if you're already in it. And if you're not, enjoy those last summer days 'cause the school year will be here before you know it.

0:21:51.5 AS: Yep.

0:21:52.1 VB: Hope you guys have a great day, evening, afternoon, morning and we'll talk to you later.

0:21:56.3 AS: Bye.

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