Welcome back to The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappy, the podcast where we chat all things dogs with expert guests. We'll talk and absolutely no fluff. Wow, maybe a little bit of dog hair. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and today I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined by Sue Williamson, an expert consent based groomer behaviourist, and the founder of Happy Pause with Sue. Now grooming isn't just about making our dogs look pretty for Instagram, it's a fundamental part of their health, happiness and overall well being. But for some dogs, and let's be honest, some pet parents, a trip to the groomer can feel as stressful as a dentist appointment. That's where Sue comes in. She takes a different approach, one that considers the whole dog their emotional state and their individual needs. So if your dog hides under the sofa at the mere sight of a brush, or you just want to understand how grooming can be a positive and enriching experience, you are in the right place. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let's dive into the world of consent based agreement. With C.

Welcome back to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and I'm so excited to bring you another episode today. Even more excited that we have Sue Williamson with us, who's our first groomer. So expect a jam packed episode, because I've got lots of questions for the lovely Sue, and I'm so excited to hear all about Sue and her journey. So without further ado, Sue, welcome to the Yappy Hour. Let's get started with your journey. What led you into the world of grooming and what made you take the consent based route?

Okay, so when I was four years old, going back thousands of years, my,

way. I've

I was four years old, my auntie gave me a toy poodle, black toy poodle called Tina. And yeah,

poodles. So you've literally just made me, wow. Literally light up straight away, but we'll come back to that anyway.

yeah,

Carry on.

that's okay. And just having this dog, we did everything together. And even back then I was doing like training of tricks, but I also always. Use food for her. It's a trainer. Not because I'd ever read anywhere that we should do it. Just felt she works food so I use food and My aunt, the aunt that had given me the dog. She was a dog groomer She was a poodle, but she specialized in poodles. So it just made me It just made me want to become a groomer, but I was told it wasn't a proper job,

Oh,

and

Okay.

I went down the administration route instead, so I worked at various places, had a break when I had my children, and then went back later on. And then about 10 years ago, I was diagnosed with breast cancer.

Oh, my goodness. Right. Okay.

And I took about four months off work to have surgery and radiotherapy and treatment. And when I went back, I just couldn't get back into work. I was, I was in a management position and it was, losing four months worth of work was not good. My staff, my staff was trying to keep up my, doing my work as well as their own. I'd lost a member of staff while I'd gone and it was just too stressful. So I decided. I decided one day after about six months of being back at work, I just handed my notice in one day, I just can't hack this anymore.

had

No job to go to. That'd be scary. Yeah. Yeah. Very, I'm very risk averse usually. So it was completely not like me.

Takes a life changing illness for

Absolutely. Yes. So I had to think of what I could do and I'd already started training to be a talent and teach practitioner.

Did Yes.

I love dogs. I've got one of my own and I thought, you know what? I'm going to go, I'm going to do the dog grooming. You know, so I booked the training course immediately with Francine Bennett at LA's Bar and Groom,

Right.

and I finished work on the Friday and started on the Monday. Absolutely loved it, absolutely loved working with the dogs, despite the fact that they were The first dog I bathed was the German Shepherd,

Wow.

that absolutely, that absolutely drenched me.

Oh, I bet.

I was absolutely wet through. Fortunately, I kept a spare pair of, a spare set of clothes in the car so I was able to get changed and not have to sit all day in a wet outfit.

Bless you.

And I did, I did a 60 day training course to groom and whilst I was doing that I was still doing my T touch training. And also learnt, whilst I was doing my T touch training, it included quite a lot of dog behaviour and body language. So grooming, what I refer to as the traditional way, just didn't fit with the T touch way of handling dogs.

That's right.

So I decided that when I finished my training I was going to open my own salon. And I was going to take a more consent based approach, you know, a more dog driven approach.

Yes.

So, that's really how I decided to follow a more consent based approach, just because I think if I had not been a T Touch, training to be a T Touch practitioner, I might not have gone down this road, but because I knew the dogs Signs that they were getting stressed and the impact it was having on them. I just couldn't not go down that route because it was just

wow.

the way that we're taught to groom was just counterintuitive to how I knew dogs coat better.

Yes.

So that's, that's why I went down that road. And I, I don't regret leaving my job for a minute. Absolutely love,

I bet.

love working with dogs.

Looks like

my

got one.

dog is crashing it.

No, don't make a, don't make don't please, apologies. Normally I've got a poodle sat on my lap. So it's only just that cause he's got separation anxiety.

bless him.

so it's only at my husband's home that they're downstairs. So, so, oh my God, what an amazing journey. Already some similarities between us anyway. And I. I really wish that I like reached out to you soon because I've got so much I want to ask you because I've got a keen interest in grooming and I want, I'm going to chat to you offline about grooming anyway because I don't want to take up too much of the episode for our listeners, but so many similarities. I've got four toy, toy poodles myself. One of them's got S A. My husband beat cancer about 10 years

Oh

and my mother in law had breast cancer a couple of years ago. So I totally get obviously, you know what you've been going through in that respect. You know, so it does take like a life changing. Things for you to put life into perspective and make you realize that you don't want to go back to the stress of like a Management job and

yeah,

an office I should have said at the start I do apologize to as well our listeners so you are a consent based groomer and we're going to delve into that a little bit more and you kind of Refer to yourself as like a grooming behaviourist as

yeah, yeah. Tony was

t touch because we've got a little reveal for our Lessons. We do have Tony Shalbon us soon.

The first person I went on a one day workshop with Tony and she, she was so good and it was after that one day workshop that I thought I need to do more of this. So it was Tony that got me instituted.

Ah,

So

pleased. So Tony's coming on at the end of next month. So to talk all about TTouch and, and stuff. So I'm glad you mentioned that. And obviously, yeah, you do know Tony. I did when I first started in my dog training journey, I don't know what made me book on, but I actually booked a workshop weekend with Alex Wilson.

oh yeah.

on behalf of the dog training college, so he'd put on a T touch like workshop weekend and I took my toy poodle, the one that I had at the time and I just found the whole T touch method fascinating. So I love that you bring that into like, you know, the grooming side and, and stuff as well. So that's, that's brilliant. So most people think of grooming as just a trim and a bath, but how does your approach differ? Hmm.

So my, the majority of dogs I groom now have been referred to me from other groomers, either other groomers that have found that they can't groom them because they're too anxious, too aggressive, or they've been referred to by behaviourists or trainers, or the, the All the guardians, pet parents you call them, don't you, have decided that they want a consent based approach to grooming and

yeah,

the only sort of approach I'll use now. Sorry, I forgot what the question was.

No.

Oh yeah, about being about a So yeah, so, there is so much more to, to grooming than just a trim and a bath as you say. Dog behaviour, how dogs behave during the groom, is massive. If you've got a dog on the table that's scared of the clippers or scared of the, your scissors, There's no way you can trim or clip that dog. So you've got to take a behaviour led approach to

yeah.

grooms condition, desensitize,

Yeah.

train. I don't like to say train them to enjoy grooming because I don't want to train them to sit there and tolerate grooming. I really want them to be. comfortable with it, because I can, you know, I can't easily just train them. They've got to sit there and they're not allowed to move.

Oh,

But I don't think that we should be doing that. It's one of those, just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

Yes.

I'd much rather do use positive reinforcement techniques and counter conditioning to teach them that grooming is not scary and it's not something they've got to sit there and tolerate. So I mean, I must admit, there's quite a few of my dogs. My canine clients, I don't bath, either the pet parents bathed them the day before. And I've got a few, I've got a few that still cannot be bathed at all, even by the parents.

Mm. Mm.

so I know it's frowned upon to use your scissors and blades on a dirty dog. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter for me because my son's a blade sharpener. So I just. Give my blades to him afterwards. I do keep my older blades for those, and scissors for those, for scissoring and flipping dogs that have not been bathed first. But yeah, my son's a sharpness, so I don't have to

Yeah.

worry about that. So,

Yeah. Oh, but even better to have someone in the family that can do it for you.

absolutely,

and it would be the worst thing with a nervous or anxious or sensitive. dog, you know, to make the, it's quite a stressful experience going to the groomers anyway, like the

absolutely.

So the worst thing would be to do is to make that experience more stressful. So you want to make them feel comfortable and, and, you know, as, as relaxed as it can, because it must be quite a scary thing for them.

I'm, I'm convinced it is, you know, it's, as somebody that has suffered from panic attacks in the future about, in the past, about the smallest little things, I can understand how they feel, even when it's, I mean, we, we know as groomers, what we're doing is, is safe, you know, the dogs are safe with us, but it doesn't matter to the dog if they perceive it as being scary, it doesn't matter.

mm,

You know, what we're trying to do, if they still perceive that, that task as being scary, they're going to react in the same way as if it's a real threat, rather than just a perceived threat. So

yeah,

I think that's what we've got to start understanding a little bit more in the grooming industry, that a dog will react the same way, irrelevant of whether it's a real threat or a perceived threat. The same as we do, really, isn't it? You know, there's There's lots of things we're scold of that's completely, you know, it's only a perceived threat. It's not a real threat, but we, our nervous system acts the same way. So,

or flight sort of,

absolutely.

way of, way of dealing with it. Yeah, and I totally relate to what you're saying. I, I suffer really badly with severe anxiety. So, you know, you know, for a dog to be, you know, put in that situation.

And it's not like you can talk to them. Like, you know, if you, if I was with you and you were having an anxiety attack, I can talk to you and

exactly.

you feel better. You can understand what I'm saying, but I don't quite understand what we're saying. So,

no, no, it's all about just making them as comfortable and, you know, as relaxed and safe as possible. I love, I love the approach and I've been so looking forward to talking to you. There's

God bless you.

much to speak about. So. Consent based grooming is still a fairly, sort of, niche concept.

is, yeah.

you, do you face any resistance or, or did you face any resistance or scepticism when you started?

Yeah, and I still, we'd still do to a certain extent. It's a lot of groomers consider us a bit airy fairy, you know, a bit of snooze like.

like dub trainers, you know,

yeah, you know.

reinforcement dub trainers.

I really think there's some of the resistance is that,

Yeah.

some groomers feel that we're saying, Oh, you're, you're cruel to the dogs. You're, you know, you're, you're being harsh handling. And it's not that at all. It's, it goes back to the dog thing, you know, being scared. Irrelevant of whether it's a scare. We think it's a scary thing or not. And in groomers training. There's very little information about body language. Yeah, I, when I, when I'd finished my T Touch training when I became a level one practitioner, it meant I could deliver one day workshops. So I used to deliver one day workshops to the groomers and it was, it became apparent really quickly that a lot of groomers didn't know what calming signals were, didn't understand body language, didn't understand figure stacking. So it's, I think if groomer training included dog behaviour first, how the system works, how the body language, how they communicate through their body as well, how we can communicate through our bodies and understand things like trigger stacking, I think. grooming would become much safer for both the dogs and for the groomers.

what's Clay?

so I think that's, that's why we've met resistance and I don't think, I think a lot of groomers struggle with understanding what consent grooming is or holistic grooming.

Mm,

I've heard people say, oh, they walk in the door, you ask if they want to be groomed and the dog say no, so you let them go home. Well, it's not that at all, you know, what consent grooming is for example, the most common technique I use is table protocol. I have my table down low, I sit on a chair, because I'm lazy.

Would be me. Make the,

I've got a little set of steps, of caravan steps, and I've put carpet on them. And I just,

texture nice on their paws,

so it's just like carpet, so it's like they're going up the normal stairs at home. And

Yeah,

I just train them to get onto the table, and then they're allowed to get off the table when they need to. So,

mm,

you know, I've had a dog in this afternoon, she stayed on the table for 40 minutes, and then decided she needed a five minutes break.

had

So, yeah, she just needed a break. She went and had five minutes, then come back on the table. So when I'm on the table, that means I can groom them. That is their consent for me to groom them. When they get off the table, I have to stop.

yeah, yeah,

must admit, when I first tried it I tried it on my protocol first. I sat on the floor with my friend and asked me to groom her working cock up and where she'd been taking them to be groomed. They'd had to have two people to hold him and he had to be muzzled and she said, well, you try grooming him. And I says, well, I'll try, but I'm not going to promise because I won't. use restraint. So I thought

Silence.

away, did another one and he just moved a little bit closer. So I thought I'm actually gonna switch my clippers on, see what he does. Switched my clippers on, didn't move. So I stroked him down the back, he didn't move and actually managed to do two. Stripes down his back clipping and he got off the mat and I thought, that's it, that's all I'm going to get done. He went and looked out the window and came back down and sat next to me again. It just stunned me that he chose to do that

Yes, all about choice.

yeah, and I managed to do a full groom on him. Without any restraints, without the muscle, without another person holding him, just giving him that choice to get on and off, checking in and out as he wanted. And that was it. I was a total convert then to consent based grooming.

Yeah.

It's

all about working with the dog in front of you. I

is, yeah.

Yeah.

And it's so much less stressful for me as well because,

Mmm,

I was talking to somebody on a podcast a few weeks ago and he said, I think you're really brave working with aggressive dogs. And I said, well, actually, I don't work with aggressive dogs because they don't need to be aggressive. Because if they feel threatened, which is when that aggression comes in, they just get off the table.

exactly.

So,

Yeah.

you know.

see how people probably a bit threatened by it or a bit. They just don't understand it. Like you say, it's a bit like

Yeah,

They don't really have like behaviour. It's a bit, it's a bit like groomers, you know, so they probably feel a bit threatened. And almost some groomers, and I'm not being I don't mean to speak ill health, but you know, it's almost like a conveyor belt getting them in and out. But it sounds like, you know, your owners or pet parents, guardians, they, they've got dogs where they know they, they're nervous, so they don't mind that it takes a bit longer. You may not even get the groom done.

you know what? It doesn't take longer though. I,

No, right.

I, I, I do, I do cockapoos my bread and butter basically. I can do a cockapoo an hour and a half

Right. Oh wow.

because I'm not spending any time for, and that's, and with them having breaks as well and just taking a groom at their pace, and there's, you know, hour and a half for a cockapoo is pretty standard, but it's because all the, all the work I put in at the beginning to make them feel safe, to build their confidence, to do all the counter conditions, desensitization, that's what takes the time at the beginning. But once I've done all that work and worked out their individual plan. We just fall into a nice pattern and routine and it's nice, nice and straightforward.

Brilliant. So we've already touched on it a little bit, but moving on to our next section of consent based grooming and why does it matter? So for those that might not be familiar, could you just sort of break it down? What consent based grooming actually means? Just a few steps.

Yeah, so consent based grooming is teaching the dog a technique so they can communicate to us. So, because we do, when we're working with dogs, we do a lot of communicating to the dogs. We do a lot of handling, but we don't give them much opportunity to say what they want and what they don't want. And they can't speak English or whatever language the groomer speaks. So we need to teach them a way of communicating to us. So, for example say table protocol is my favorite technique.

Yes.

them to get onto the table. That's the first step. The second step is to teach them when they're on the table, they're going to get touched. And I'm going to touch them with grooming equipment, but they're allowed to get off the table. So when I'm first training them, I like them to get on without food, but I will throw food on the floor to get them to choose to go off the table.

Sure.

Sometimes I will use a bit of food to make the table a really positive place to be.

Yes.

So the first step is really teaching them on the table, you're going to get touched, you're going to get groomed, off the table, that all stops.

Yeah.

that gives them a way to communicate to me. Yes, I'm on the table. You can touch me. You can groom me or no, I'm off the table. Please don't come. Don't come near me with any equipment.

Yeah.

It's, it's one of those things you've really got to see it, for it to sink in, how, how it, how it's done how it works. The same with the mat protocol when, when they come and show me on the mat. Grooming will take place when they get off the mat, grooming stops. I use a chin rest as well. Because

Yeah,

you know, particularly for dogs that don't like having their face done, teaching them a chin rest, you can get the face done much quicker than a lot of groomers will hold the chin fur, which

yeah,

obviously then builds in more resistance.

yeah. You are pre on that?

Yeah, because dogs will be trying pulling away so you get them up, but if you teach them just to put their chin in your non grooming hand, you know, it might take a few goes to really get them confident to do that, but after that, once they learn that, that's one less stress for them because they know they've got that choice. I use place protocol. Quite often as well, so I groom a couple of dogs in their own home and I've got one little dog that They've got three steps from their hallway down to the lounge and he sits at the top of those steps to be groomed So while he's sitting at the top of those steps, we groom him because they use the same technique why I'm not there When if that's enough, he'll move away from the top of the steps. So it's really

Mm.

message to me or whoever's grooming him that Top of the stairs, grooming takes place, away from the stairs, grooming stops.

Yeah.

They

that

get it, the dogs get it a lot quicker than we do.

Yeah, always the way. Oh, brilliant. That's, that's great. Thank you. So in terms of a dog's emotional and physical state, how would you assess that before you start a grooming session? Oh,

physical obviously. Because I'm a TTouch practitioner, we are always taught to make observations before we start working on dogs. You know, have a look at the coats, you know, changing coat patterns can indicate things like tension. And I've actually just completed a Galen.

I've been hearing some,

Yeah, they do.

some stuff about this.

Yeah, you have to have it. I'll send you the link for it. I've just done a it's a six hour online session face to face on the online sort of thing and it goes through what's good posture. What's what to look for for not faults in posture, but what's what's normal and what's not normal.

Yeah.

and it was, I found it really interesting, really, really, it's just added another layer to me. Then there's a degree you can go on to do, a diploma you can go on to do, but that takes three years and

Yeah, I

yeah, I'm not sure I'm quite in that platform yet.

yeah, a colleague you might, you might know, Deb Betts, I think she's doing

Oh, Debbie? Yeah. No, no, Debbie. Really? Well. Yeah, she's doing the, the diploma, isn't it fair?

oh, she's doing the deflating rights, but there is

Yeah.

like you say, like a, like a taster course or something.

They do a couple of taster courses. So they do, they do one that's just like a, I think it's 20 pound and it's just an hour and a half or something like that. And it's just basically shows you what's, what's a good position and what's the, you know, weight and starts, starts pay more attention to your own dog. I just finished that yesterday, so, but I do always pay attention when the dogs come in, see, you know, whether, whether they're limping, and to be fair, I also do ask guardians if they've been fine since the last session whether they've had any health issues,

yeah.

so I mean, groomers have more hands on experience of dogs than any other canine professional, you know, to be quite honest. So yeah, so I always do look at them physically when they first come in to make sure they've, they've not got a leg hanging off.

you imagine? Remind us, Sue, of the name of that, because I can't, I, I struggle with the name of it. Is it Galen?

Galen. Yeah, G A L E N. L E N,

Yeah, just Galen

Galen Myotherapy.

the one.

Yeah,

Thank you. Brilliant. So,

and then from.

Oh, go on,

Oh, sorry. From an emotional point of view, I'll just be watching body language,

yes.

you know

language.

you know, and how happy they are, you know, whether they're, I'm having to drag them in from the gate, which I

No,

rarely have. Yeah, there's no dragging involved at all. And yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's one of the best bits of the job, you know, I'm go, go most, I have about 50% pet parents stay, which is quite different to a lot of the groupers,

yes Mm,

stay, I go and meet them at the gate and I'd say 95 percent of those, I'll open the gate and they come running straight through into my salon. I think there's just one,

Yeah,

he gets a little bit waylaid, shall I say, Lisbon's. You know you spend hours walking around the garden.

yeah I'm big on all pet parents, pet professionals doing understanding body language. Like my team cause I've got a dog walking business and my team all do like a understanding canine body language workshop in the first few months of coming

Yeah.

And when I used to teach puppy classes in person, I'd talk about it to pet parents. But I'm very big on even them doing that. Research even before they get a doctor learn. It's all about education around

It certainly is. Yeah.

Yeah.

In my book, the Guardian's version of the book, it talks about calming signals and body language. So does the Guardian's version. So they all get a copy of that when they first start bringing the book to me. So they can understand about body language and trigger stacking. Because I think it's just important for the Guardians to understand that. It's just for me to understand that. Thanks.

glad you touched on your book. Cause I do have it, but it's actually downstairs in my bookshelf. But, I do need to I do need to, I've got so many books I need to read. It's terrible, but I need to, I need to, I'm making a conscious effort to start reading more this year, but I need to read your book, but let's just tell our listeners about your or I didn't know there was, I think, I know there's one, I didn't know there was a guardian and a,

There's three versions. There's,

wow.

Yeah, so there's taking the girl out of grooming your dog, which is for pet parents. There's taking the girl out of the grooming salon, which is for grooming professionals. And then there's introducing your puppeteer girl as grooming. So that's the new puppy guardians teach them so that they can do a lot of the work term before they take them to a grooming salon. So that when they, for the puppies go for the first session, they know some things to expect.

We're, we're touched on that a bit in the, in the episode about

Yeah.

puppies used to it and decentralization. Now I'm going to have to check what version I've got. I remember seeing, being in one of your groups and a bit being posted, but I'm going to have to check which version I've got.

They've all got different dogs on the front.

yeah, I've got it. After this, after this, I'm going to check and make sure I've got the right one. So many pet parents worry about their pups feeling stressed at the groomers. What are some of the key things that you do differently to make it a positive experience?

So I, as I say, about 50 percent of my pet parents stay anyway, so they can completely observe whilst they're there, they can see how their pets are, and I find in the mean that the dogs do better with the parents, the pet parents there, with their person there,

Yeah, yeah.

and I think some of that's down to, because sometimes when you're working one to one with a dog In grooming, it can come a bit intense for the dog because she's just

mm,

on that dog. Whereas if the guardians are there, I spend some of the time talking to the guardians as well. And it sort of takes the focus off the dog a little bit, you know, I am obviously concentrated on the dog to groom it. But it gives, you know, it just makes it a little bit less intense for the dog. And it gives me somebody to talk to because I do work on my own. And also, with having the pet parent there, I can talk to the pet parent. Oh, did you see that? What he did there? And, oh, I think this leg's a little bit, you know, in an odd position. And then I get more information about how they are at home, what they do on a daily basis. And that all feeds into how I can adapt the groom to suit each dog. But I think we're not one house. When new dogs come to me, I do ace free work for the first session. So, I put things like licky mats down, sniffle mats bits of old

that.

carpets, anything I've got sort of laying about, and then I put different treats on them, licky stuff they can lick. And that's all I do the first session. So they come into the salon, And they're allowed to just do that free work. I don't touch them. They get to hear the, some of the noises. The, the, the, the everyday noises in my salon. Like I've got a tree next to my cabin and I get a lot of pigeons walking up and down the top. So they'll, they'll hear those. They'll hear my dogs barking in the house. They get to know my voice and the smell of me and the smell of the salon. And while, getting used to all this while they're doing free work and the calm, it starts to build up a really positive experience for them straight away. And then I just build on that over the next three or four sessions of doing a little bit more each time. So by the time I need to groom them, they know me really well, they know my salon really well, they're comfortable, they feel safe

good.

and that's off the

important.

battle.

That's important. So just for our listeners that don't know what ACE stands for, that's Animal Centred Education ACE Free Work, and the wonderful Sarah Fisher so another little reveal, Sarah is coming on to the Yappy Hour

That's

So I I can't, I can't wait for, to have Sarah while we're just in the process of getting her booked in. So yeah, Ace Freeway is definitely something that's worth looking into. Do you think that traditional, a bit controversial, do you think that traditional grooming environments could contribute to anxiety in dogs?

Absolutely. And again, it all comes back down to this not feeling safe. If you don't feel safe somewhere,

yes.

adds to the stress. And it, again, it's not as the groomers are harsh handling. It's just being in a strange environment with strange people, strange smells and sounds. It's, it's like, you know, I also liken it to us, us going abroad, not knowing anybody there, my own, and we're just pushed into a room with complete strangers talking a different language. And then they start touching us and moving us from one seat to another. And, you know, your brain's exploding. You don't know where the toilet is.

different smells and

Yeah,

and yeah.

you don't know the protocols of that where you go and you don't know what you should be doing, what you shouldn't be doing, you don't know what they're going to do to you next. So your nervous system will just be going

put yourself in the shoes of the dog.

absolutely. Yeah. So

You won't like it.

it's not that the groomers are being harsh or doing anything. But it's just that lack of understanding that really the dogs need to feel safe before you start grooming them. And that doesn't happen a lot. You know, many dogs, they get taken to a salon for the very first time. And immediately they're put onto a table or put into the bath. And they have all this strange stuff. Dogs don't know how to be groomed, you know, they're not born knowing how to be groomed other than the parents, you know, the canine parents cleaning them and that's the natural way of grooming. And then all of a sudden

Yeah.

salon with all this stuff going on with them with a complete stranger, somebody they don't understand or know, there might be other dogs in the salon barking. It's a lot. So I definitely think even, even one to one when I first started to grooming, I wasn't quite particular what clients to take on now. They've got to want, they've got to want my particular skills.

Mmm.

I don't, if somebody rings before, I want my dog grooming tomorrow. Can you do it? They're not the client for me. But, you know, when I used to take those sorts of dogs, any dog on, I'd get, they'd get, get, oh the fine being groomed, the, the groomer says the fine.

Of

And then, and then you'd sort of get the dog in the bath and the dog's freaking out, or throwing calming signals at you right, left and centre. And it, and it's. It's a bit upsetting that, because I don't want to criticise other groomers, you don't, I didn't know things years ago, you don't know what you don't know. So

Yes.

I think the groomer training lets a lot of groomers down if body language and dog behaviour was taught in groomer training, then the groomers would know what I know, basically,

Definitely.

I've just put a new dog on started yesterday. They probably did a free work yesterday and. The guardian says, Oh, she's fine in the bath and being dried. And automatically now put a question mark over that is she really, you know, so she won't get bath for a few weeks yet, a few sessions yet. So be interesting how calm she and relaxed she is in the bath.

Mmm.

Yeah, it's, it's just a bit sad that if the groomers had more dog behaviour knowledge, they couldn't, because some of the things you can, it's quite easy to adapt some things that takes a lot of stress away. For example, doing that first session, instead of bathing them and drying them and, trimming them on the first session. If you've just had a session where they just were able to explore your salon,

Yeah.

Many groomers, most groomers, in fact, stand up grooming. So they've got the table probably three foot high. When you think, you know, you're one of your toy poodles put on a three foot high table, that's extremely high. For a toy poodle, isn't it? Or for any dog. And then they've got the safety aids on. So they might have a safety around the neck and one on the belly. If they've never had those on before, again, that's quite scary. And then

alien.

Then they start getting brushed and touched and moved around by a complete stranger. And I think, you know, so what I've done, because I have my table low, I don't need to use the safety aids. So the dogs are totally free on my table. So I've taken my H bar off, so, because I don't need it. So the dogs have got complete freedom to move around. And that takes a lot of stress out for. For some dogs as well. I don't use muzzles because I don't, mainly because I don't need to because If the dog gets stressed, it just gets off the table. So

Yeah. Yeah.

you know, there are lots of things that groomers can do. I mean, one of the biggest things I would say, if any groomers are listening and you want to think about things that reduce stress in the salon, simply changing from a noose or a collar around the neck to a harness type restraint or safety aid can make a massive difference in itself. Because with a a harness type on, they've got a better sense of balance. It's more central rather than being all the three straight being in one place. It's more,

Yeah.

So just changing to a harness type and a lovely, lovely lady whose business is Just Think Dog has just designed a grooming harness, which is amazing. Yeah, specifically for grooming, so, yeah, so simply by changing from that collar and belly strap to a harness makes a massive difference lowering your table can make a big difference as well. There's, there's lots of little things you can do that

Yeah.

add up to a lot.

Definitely. Thank you. So just moving on to some of our common grooming challenges and solutions. What's one of the biggest struggles dog parents have? Sorry. One of the biggest that dog parents have is getting their dog to tolerate brushing at home. Do you have any top tips for this place?

there's a couple of things you can do. I also encourage new puppy guardians when they want to brush the puppy. Put a licky mat on the floor, or wherever they're going to groom. Make it a consistent place where you do your grooming, so the puppy knows when it's in that place, that's when grooming is going to take place. So it already, it builds up that this, this is what happens here. So don't make it their dog bed, don't make it somewhere that they're really fun, rewarding. Just make it a nice quiet place that you can groom them. Put a licky mat on the floor. Or the Lip and Calm one that Pet Remedy have just bought out, which, which got suckers all over the back. I don't know if you've seen it. So you can stick it to windows, side of cupboards.

yeah, the

it sticks everywhere, even if you don't want it to. So you can put, yeah, you can put it in the bath as well and it sticks really well to the bath. And why stick it? The puppy's licking away. Just gently start the brush or comb or do whatever you need to do while they're doing something positive. So it makes that easier. When I first started grooming I had, I knew this lady a long time. I knew her from agility with her previous dog and my previous dogs. And she bought her little Shih Tzu to me and the poor dog was lifted. So I shaved him off completely brought him back six weeks later and matted again. And I said, look, why aren't you brushing him? She says, well, I have to pin him down to brush him and he doesn't like it. So I thought we've got to find a way that she can brush and he's got some power. So we came up with this technique called, I call tooth brushing. And I said, right. Shaved him. When you're sitting watching the TV, just get the brush out, do one stroke on him, then watch what he does, does he move away, does he show you a calming signal, because you know about calming signals. As if, if not, do two brushes and then watch what he does. If he moves away, just let him move away. If he shows you a calming signal, just stop for a little while and then try again. And this is what she did. She gradually was able to do four or five brushes and then he'd move away. But then a bit later on, she'd do a bit more. And then we found when she brought him back six weeks later, he was just a bit matted on his legs. But his torso, which had previously been matted, was. Completely matte free. And by the 12 week mark, she brought him back and he wasn't matted at all, apart from the odd tag here and there. And that's still how she brushes him now, you know, if he moves away, she stops and waits for him to come back.

Yeah.

Now she's, it's rare he comes with a mat now. The only time she, poor lady had surgery for cancer last year and there were a couple of times where he got a few more mats than usual. But you know what? I totally understand that you probably haven't got the MNV2, the brushing. So

Yeah.

You know, did what we usually do, I just cut the mats out and sorted him out and then she brought him back and now she's, she's recovered. We're back into the routine of him not, not being matted at all. So there are, there are,

That's funny.

sorry, go on.

Yeah, go on. funny because our next question is about matting, but yeah, go on.

Yeah. So, you know, there's usually a reason why people are not brushing their dogs. So I always like to take the time to ask them why, because it might be they're using the wrong brush, they're using the wrong technique.

hmm.

I've got a friend that has got really bad arthritis in her hand, so brushing is

yeah.

So if we can understand the difficulties people are having, we can find solutions for them.

Definitely. Yeah. so talking about continuing matting, there's some breeds that seem to turn into walking velcro pads overnight. What should pet parents do and avoid when dealing with matting? Mm hmm.

Okay, so the best thing to do if you've got a dog that's matted, if you're pet is matted, take it to a groomer. There's some breeds that can't be clipped off or shouldn't be clipped off, but I think we'll discuss that later. So if you've got like a Shih Tzu or a Cockapoo wall coated dogs that can be clipped, just take it to the groomer, get it completely shaved off, start from scratch. I also advise my pet parents to go for a length that they can manage in between grooms. So most of my clients do choose to go short. I've had a milieu I've had in this afternoon, her guardian likes to keep her a little bit fluffy. But she brings it in every four weeks, so she can maintain that coat, that length in between grooms. So most cockapoos come every six weeks

Mm.

so instead of coming every six weeks, she comes in every four weeks, just so she can maintain that little bit of fluff. So. Always go for a length that you can maintain without portering your dog. I live in quite a rural area, so I get a lot of dogs that spend a lot of time in wet fields particularly at the moment. So, again,

man.

in fields, go for a shortcut. It's much easier. So, yeah, again, most of mine are taken short because they want to go in the fields and they want to spend hours brushing out matting and pitholes and all sorts. Not technically, well it is sort of technically related,

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

out the twig, I immediately can cut that. Either through the branch, through the twig, and pull it out so it doesn't get raveled up and cause a mat, or, you know. If it's really embedded into the fur, I'll just cut the fur out. And I can do that immediately rather than an hour later when we're at home, when it's already started to cause that big mat. So yeah, really go for a length that you can cope with that's practical for your dog's life. If it doesn't enjoy being brushed, go for a short style.

Yeah.

And then just maintain it. And if, if you have got a dog with a difficult coat to maintain, go, go to the grooms more frequently,

Yeah.

you know, because they will be able to

Makes

the coat in between grooms for, you know, in, because I know some groomers, some people decide to go I have, say, a groom every three weeks, but one time it's just a mini groom and the next time it's a full groom. So I used to do one, she'd come every three weeks and she'd have a bath and just to tidy up and then the three weeks later she'd be back again and she'd have a full groom. So some groomers will offer that for you as well, especially if you can't maintain six weeks, you know. just a better option than leaving it six weeks and then being fully matted six weeks later.

Yeah. Brilliant. What would you say like the biggest mistake that owners or pet parents unknowingly make when it comes to grooming? Mm. Mm. Mm.

I think it is this. I've got to get this done. So I'm just going to hold on to his collar and get it brushed, get him brushed or her brushed. And then course you had it, you had in that. If you don't know how to brush properly either, that just makes it even worse because a lot of people will just brush the top layer of the dog and then It looks like they're not matted, but then when you get to the base of the fur, it's pelted. So it's really important if you've got a long coated dog that you part the fur, then brush out from the root right down to the end. Keep brushing like that, then re part the fur again. So that you've, you get down to the skin every time, not brushing the skin, obviously, but you brush from the root outwards, and then when you've brushed them all over, go through with a comb to make sure there's no mats, but just brushing the top layer, you're just going to get the pelting, and that's when they have to go really, really short, and it's really uncomfortable for the dog.

Right. Right. Brilliant. So, moving on to the emotional and physical impact of grooming people often see grooming as just an aesthetic thing, but does, how does proper grooming impact a dog's overall well being?

It all does come down to the matting, to be quite honest, you know, if your dog gets matted, it doesn't work, the coat doesn't work properly how it's supposed to work, it doesn't protect the skin, it doesn't protect the because strangely enough, you know, dogs, dogs fur is designed to protect them from the elements. So,

Mm.

if your dog's coat is matted, it's not going to protect them from those elements. So, the. It's particularly worse in summer. So if you say we've got a matted poodle or cockapoo, what happens is if it's a really hot day, the coat will absorb all that heat and then keep that heat onto the skin and not let any air flow through it. Whereas if it's nice and brushed out, that acts as a protector against the sun, the fresh airs that can go between the foot, the piece of the fur. And it keeps the skin much cooler, so it's protecting the dog's skin. So yeah, dogs have particular coats for a reason. So like a Labrador, a Labrador that was bred originally to retrieve, you know, particularly in water. Their coat is Texts, you know, the water just drips off them unless they're in there forever. Have you ever tried to wet a spaniel? If you've ever tried to wet a spaniel, you'll know that their coat is quite water resistant. And that's because, you know, their job was to be out in the fields all day flushing. So if it was chucking it down a rain, you didn't want your dog soaking. So the coats are designed for a purpose. You know, and keeping them in, in the condition to achieve that purpose is what we need to be doing.

Pretty good. do you think dogs can actually enjoy being groomed once it's done right? Oh, wow. Yes.

as a puppy in the correct way, I think some dogs do enjoy it. Going back to when my aunt gave me my toy poodle, she had miniature poodles. She had three miniature poodles of her own and she had one. She had a beautiful white one and this dog, honestly, I used to watch her grooming it and when it came to doing it, she used to paint her nails and she would literally sit with her paw held out to have her nails painted, but again, no restraints, free movement, and she always looked really glamorous. You could imagine her walking around France with a little handbag on her paw, you know, strutting her stuff, and you could tell that she loved it. She enjoyed the attention, so I think yes, if it's introduced properly, it's stress free, then dogs can enjoy it. Unfortunately a lot depends on the dog's temperament as well. Dogs with anxiety Rethought guarding actually is closely linked to body handling issues. So, many of the dogs I groom also have resource guarding issues as well. And I suppose it's just their way of resource guarding their body. So

Yeah.

yeah, so I do think it's possible for some dogs to enjoy being groomed. I've got a few dogs that I've groomed since they've been a puppy. And they're my easiest dogs to groom because it's been, they've been not trained to be groomed. They've experienced it in a positive way. So, you know, they're just.

Good.

Let me get on with it, including to my own poodle, one of my own poodles. I had her from eight weeks. Brilliant breeder, you know, really good breeder that started grooming them before I had her at eight weeks.

That's good.

And yeah, about to put her on the table to dry. Lays down on the table and lets me dry off. It's that easy.

Oh. Okay. So, handling anxious or sensitive dogs in the grooming process is our next section. So, many dog parents have spicy or anxious dogs. How do you approach the grooming for them?

Yeah, it's, it's, it goes back to what I was talking about how I introduced them to the salon. I get, you know, they get to do free work. I get to know the dog first, put a plan together. Areas of anxiety or where they need to use, whether you previously used aggression to stop that happening. And it's just building a plan around. their preferences, building on what they like and working on what they don't enjoy to change their emotional response to that element. So I've been working with a, a kapupu recently that had been banned from previous groomers. He'd spent two years being sedated, having to be sedated for grooms.

Wow,

After four sessions with him, I was able to clip him off completely after four sessions. I think I got one, I think I got one growl in there, but nothing, no, no aggression. So by eliminating the need to show aggression. I'm making the groom easier for them and I'm making the groom easier for myself as well. And he's just the most delightful dog now. You know, he's, he really likes being bathed, which is really straight. Those dogs hate it, but he loves the bath. So what we'll do now

yeah

one session he'll get a bath. And we'll do a little bit of training of the things he don't like, and then the next session he gets clipped off, which is the bit he doesn't really enjoy so much, but now, you know, I can clip him off. And it's just working with each individual dog to find their dislikes and their likes. With the, I do find the generally anxious dogs a little bit more difficult because if they're generally anxious on day to day, there's not one specific thing in the salon particularly that they find. difficult. It's everything they find difficult in the salon. So again, it's finding the best way for each individual dog so that they can cope better. I've got for example, a little dog that I said I'd go to his home to groom. He would come to the salon, didn't like the car, didn't like how his harness put on. And we taught him table protocol and would probably get 10 minutes of grooming using table protocol. But after 10 minutes, he would I was totally disengaged, couldn't cope, wouldn't get back on the table, would find stuff to snag around the salon that he'd never bothered with before. And then it was really difficult for the guy to get his harness back on to get him in the car. So I said,

I've got a workup.

this is not working. Let me come to your house. So you don't have to come in the car. He doesn't have to have his harness on and let's see if it makes a difference. I get 45 minutes now. a really good focus work, which means I can completely kick them off in 45 minutes and get a little bit of time to have a bit of a play. So it really is just working out what's best for each dog.

Yeah. Working with a dog in front of you. I love that. What can pet parents do at home to prepare their dogs for a stress free grooming session? So obviously you mentioned some bath then, but is there anything else in terms of preparation?

yeah, a lot of it is obviously if they buy my books, they can do a lot of. work at home with making them more comfortable with being groomed. But it's thinking about any triggers leading up to a groom. So if you've got a dog that's reactive to other dogs, that is sensitive to other dogs or other people, or You know, life in general, try and keep them stress free as much as you can a few days up to a groom so that they're coming into the grooming salon as rest as peaceful as possible. So some groomers will.

that bucket isn't full

Absolutely. Make sure that bucket's as empty as possible. We have, we do have a lot of groomers that will say, if they've got a difficult dog, they'll say, oh, take it for an hour's walk before they bring them to the salon, wear them out. And I'm thinking,

okay.

that's all well and good, but what if you've got a dog that is really sensitive to other dogs or people and being out in the street, that's going to trigger them. But also, what if you've got a dog that's got bilateral hip, that's got hip displace, your luxate and patella. then they're coming into the salon in pain. And whilst I'm talking about pain, pain is probably one of the biggest issues in the grooming salon. There's a lot more dogs in pain and then they're blamed for being, they certainly are. You've got dogs that, you know, come in and then they're being moved about, they're being washed and rubbed on, probably joints that are painful. And then the dogs are blamed for getting aggressive when actually

Mm.

down to that pain. So I am.

Yeah.

Because I only, I probably only groom 10, 12 dogs a week I'm very flexible. So, if I've got a dog that's Has got an injury or been to the, had to have an emergency appointment at the vets or has been sick or ill overnight, I'd rather move that appointment and wait until the dog's better or if it's out of, I've got one dog in particular I'm working with, a working, another working Cocker Spaniel, that he's really sensitive to rain. So, if it's raining or really windy, we just move the appointment to another day when it's not wet and windy. Our South Wales, I know I'm going to get nothing done because he's so stressed

Yeah.

that he can't cope and he is, he has got a bite history, not with me, but with previous because he was rehomed.

Oh, bless him.

so. His new guardians are working with a vet behaviourist as well. So they're doing all they can to make this dog's life much better. But I know that I know that if I push him too far, he's still would bite. So if I can eliminate all the triggers, as many triggers as I can before he comes into the salon, then that makes sense to me. So I've got a less stressed dog to start with.

Definitely. So, moving on to our next section, which is breed specific grooming advice. So, breeds have different grooming needs. Are there any general guidelines that pet parents should follow based on a coat type?

Yeah, so there are specific brushes or tools for different dogs. And you, you are best to talk to, you know, depending on the coat type of your dog. Because there are so many different, you know, cause poodlers have been crossed with everything now. They've, and all the coats vary so much. You are probably best talking to a groomer to ask what you should be using. But in saying that I have found so for an example, if you went to most groomers and you said, I've got cockapoo, what brush is best? They will say a slicker brush.

Right.

However, some dogs, some dogs don't like slicker brushes and it's going to make it more difficult. So this is really naughty of me and groomers going to hate me for saying this, but I actually keep a really big selection of brushes in my salon. Including human hairbrushes.

Okay.

I will, if I, if I try with a slicker brush on a dog and it doesn't look like a slicker brush, I'll try one of the other brushes,

Yeah.

and if they, you know, if they find that brush easy, then that's the brush for them, because

Exactly.

it's no use trying to force a brush onto a dog, as long as you are parting the fur. and combing out from the root to the tip of the fur, it doesn't matter what brush you use, as long as you're keeping that dog mat free. And in fact, some dogs will tolerate a comb, a steel tooth comb, much easier than a brush. So whilst yes, there are general guidelines of what brushes you should be using for what breed and what coats you like, you've got to apply better common sense. And if your dog doesn't like that type of brush, use a different one.

That's it. Yeah.

And technically, really, realistically, the breeder should be advising you on what brush to use for your dog. So, if you've got a dog that's got short fur, then something like a zoom groom is really good. Longer coats. Then generally people advise a slicker brush, double coated, we advise a rake. But if they don't like that, then find something that your dog will tolerate and make sure that you're really thorough in brushing them.

Exactly. Brilliant. certain breeds struggle more with creaming than others?

I actually find the dogs that struggle most with being groomed is any gundog breed crossed with a poodle,

Yes.

particular cockapoos. My books are full of cockapoos. Then I've got some, I've got a couple of cavapoos actually. Labradoodles Golden doodles,

Wow. All the poodles

all the p all the poodles crossed with gun dogs. And then I've got a couple of West, west Island terriers and a couple of of Shitzu seems to be the other popular breed that don't enjoy being groomed.

Right.

And I think that's 'cause they've got such badly ba, badly. design bodies, you know, they've got little legs, so it's really difficult to get around the leg areas. But yeah, in particular, I mean, who thought crossing a spaniel with a poodle was a good idea?

God, that's what's your take on the shaving, double coated breeds debate.

Right. In a perfect world, they wouldn't be shaved because it, this goes back to, you know, their coats are designed for a purpose.

Yeah.

Yeah. And there is a lot of research that shows that shaving them does damage the coats.

Yeah.

I would rather, if a, if a double coated breed came to me completely matted, I would rather clip it and worry about coat funk later,

mm

as dogs, as pets. Double coated breeds, dogs do get older and they're laying down more, then they're more prone to matting and again, I would rather shave it than the guardians really struggling to groom a dog, brush a dog that's got arthritis in its rear end, you know, and pulling on those mats, I would rather shave it.

Yeah,

I know it's not generally approved of in the grooming industry, but I'm all for welfare over vanity. Thank you.

definitely. Yeah,

and I've got a couple of collies that I groom that spend a lot of time in wet, muddy field and get very wet underneath. And I do shave them,

yeah,

shave them underneath, not, not. Not the full pose, but I do shave the underneath because otherwise they're just matted every time they come in.

I said, it's a

They don't enjoy, they don't enjoy being brushed underneath and the back legs. So it's, you know, it's a, it's a no brainer for me. I know technically I shouldn't, but it's better for the dogs.

Well, that's all, that's all that matters, what's best for the dog. So moving on to just our next section, we're, we're nearly, we're nearly done. We've so much, Pat, Pat, we're going to have to get you back on because it's so much we could talk so much more about the products and tools, what's worth it and what's not. There are a million products out there, but what is your ride and died cream and essential,

Okay, every I think every guardian that's got a wool coated dog or a drop coat dog or a double coated dog needs Cowboy Magic detangler. And I

right?

love that because it's not got a strong aroma. But also, it's like a serum rather than, most, most detangling products are a spray.

Right.

We know dogs don't like being sprayed. That's why they're used as a deterrent for bad behaviour. So so I don't like any products that you have to spray on dogs.

Yeah.

So this. Cowboy Magic, you get it, it's like a serum, so it's like hair gel and it is amazing. You just rub this into where the coat's matted, leave it for three or four minutes and then it just brushes out. Obviously, if it's a thick mat, it's not going to work. It's not a miracle worker, but if you've just got a little tangle, it's really, really productive for that.

Yeah.

so Cowboy Magic is one I would really recommend. I love the doodle, the MIPI, that's M I K K I doodle brush.

Okay.

It's really, it's a, it's a pin brush, so the spikes have got little pin heads on. So it's not as harsh on the coat. And it's a really cheap and cheerful one as well, I think it's something like about 10. But it's really comfortable, it's really ergonomically designed. So it's comfortable to hold, the dogs seem to I like it a lot more than some of the other brushes out there, so I have got quite a few of the doodle brushes and I use them even on dogs that are not doodles. Other products I like, I love Pore Galic shampoo. It's really, again, it's a low aroma shampoo,

Yeah.

it's really good quality. It brings the coat up lovely. And it's really kind. So, when I first started grooming, I was using different shampoos. And winter was a right pain because my hands would get so sore from wabbling the dogs and being cold. And I'd get really sore hands. But since I switched to Pore Organic, I don't get sore hands at all. So

wow.

Paulganic is my go to shampoo now for most dogs. There's a couple of dogs I use. Duxo, if they've got skin issues, then Duxo's a really good product as well.

Yeah.

then a lick and calm mat, you know. It's technically not a grooming product, but it's something I use on a regular basis or for the formats.

Grooming accessory.

Yeah, and Pet Remedy calming spray or

Yes.

products, and I find that's really good. And if, if you want to buy any Pet, because I'm the Pet Remedy Ambassador.

Yeah, so

it. Yeah, so we've got apart. Yeah, so we've got codes we can use to get discounts. If people want to use them, I'll let you use your code. So pet remedy and something I do recommend is if you have got a dog that. is not a massive fan of going to the grooming salon. Use pet remedy at home when they're already calm and then take some pet remedy in with you to the grooming salon so they smell that pet remedy and it reminds them of being calm. So that can help, really help. But I do use pet remedy a lot in the salon as well. So pet remedy is on my list of do or die products.

was like an organic type one, but natural versus chemical based grooming products. Does it make a difference?

To me, yes I. I suffer from migraines, so if I use

Gosh, yeah.

So, if I use anything that's got highly perfumed,

Yeah.

products are really bad for me as well. So, I try and, I can't help but think if strong smells or strong chemical smells give me migraines, there's no reason to think why they don't. give dogs migraines or headaches, particularly as their sense of smell is way better than ours. You can only think how, how much some of the products that we use must smell to the dogs, that must be absolutely horrendous so strong. So I do like to keep my products as low scented as possible for my benefit as much as the dogs, because obviously I don't want to be having migraines every day.

Yeah.

so. Again, this poorganic one, the, the aromas are so delicate there's,

smart. Aw.

there's vintage mint,

okay.

is a little bit, smells a little bit minty, sherbet lemon. I love the sherbet lemon one because it does remind me of the sweets. And then, and there's the yankee doodle one, which is brilliant, would be brilliant for your poodles. And it doesn't really smell of anything, so it's. It's a really neutral smell,

Oh, okay.

that's why I like the the Porganic stuff because the aroma is so low and it's really kind for my skin as well. So I, I don't use any strong chemical based stuff

Yeah.

can avoid it. Obviously we have to clean our equipment and I, I tend to use Milton sterilizing tablets for that. So

Oh, okay. Yeah.

I don't clean the stuff while the dogs are in the salon. I make sure that those smells have dis dis, disappeared by the time I bring the next dog in. So yeah, a lot of groomers will use colognes on dogs,

Yes.

just don't see the point.

Bye bye. Yeah.

dog would not choose to smell of Yves Saint Laurent or Calvin Klein. They'd much rather smell of fox poo.

Yeah.

know that.

So that might be one, might be one of the products or tools you'd like to see owners throw in the bin. That was my next question. Are there any products or tools that you see owners using that you'd love to throw in the bin?

Oh, apart from extendable leads.

Oh God. Yeah. Not a fan of flexi leads. Yeah.

And any, any tools, obviously that. We'd consider it to be aversive but from a groomer's point of view, those mat splitters that have got blades on them that you're supposed to, they're like little hooks that have got a blade on one side that you're supposed to split the mat with and cut the mat out.

oh gosh.

They're quite quite dangerous in the wrong hands.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

But other than that, you know, as long as If pet parents are using appropriate tools for their dog, you know, grooming tools for their dogs, then that's okay,

That's

you know, to me. There's lots of products I'd like to see disappear out of grooming salons. That's,

enough. Alright, so I'm going to ask you a question on the role of the dog parent in the grooming success. So for those dog parents who might be feeling overwhelmed, Sue, what's one simple thing they can start doing today to improve their dog's grooming experience?

Try and keep them mat free.

Yeah,

Even if, you know, even if I've got a dog come to me that's matted, I can make it as stress free as possible. But if the dog's matted, it's going to be uncomfortable.

yeah,

So one of the first things I do with new guardians is teach them how to brush properly. Not, I mean, just line brushing, but. brush with trust and

Love that

because many of them stay anyway they see the techniques I use and they carry on using those at home.

Yeah.

So yeah, just try and keep your dogs as mat free as possible. Because

grooming job easier as well

it makes the groomer's job easier, but it also makes it less stressful for the dog.

dog, and that's ultimately

I can only imagine how uncomfortable it must be. Firstly being matted, but then having a groomer pulling at your skin and to get those mattes out. It must be like somebody constantly pulling your hair.

Horrible.

I mean, if anybody wants to, you know, feel how it must feel to be, to have to be. Brush it out when you're matted. Just rough your hair up for a bit and put some chewing gum in it and then try and brush it out.

It's a

You know, just, that must be how it feels. I mean, even when I've got quite long hair and if I've got a cot in my hair, it's really uncomfortable to brush it out.

It is, yeah.

And I've got control of how much I pull.

What would you say is the best way for pet parents to build trust for their dog when it comes to handling and grooming?

learn about body language

Yes.

and then follow that body language.

Big on

I do think that small dogs really struggle with handling because as puppies, and probably throughout their lives, they're just picked up without any consideration of whether they want to be picked up, whether they want to be handled, whether they want to be stroked. And with little dogs, you know yourself, you've got the boy poodle. It's really easy to pick them up and force them to do what they want. So force your will on them.

Yeah.

That's the worst thing you can do and it does really impact on handling in the salon as well. So many dogs don't like being picked up that come to the salon and I think a lot of that is down to overhandling at home when the pup is. And you know, very little choice. So I've got a party poodle, miniature party poodle. and she hates being picked up. When, if ever I pick her up without getting her consent first, she just braces against you. So I just, I just don't pick her up unless I absolutely have to. So if going in the car, we've taught her to put her feet on the bumper when she's ready to be picked up. We've put in the car

Yeah.

all at the car now with the paws on ready to go in the car.

Yeah.

The steps to get on and off the table. So really the only time I have to pick her up is if I think she's in danger, and then I'd rather pick her up and struggle against me than be in danger, which is extremely rare because I don't put her in a position where she's in danger. But if I think, you know, if a big dog's running up to her because she's, she's not good with, She's not confident with other dogs that she doesn't know, so I'd rather pick her up and make her feel a little bit safer, but, you know, I avoid picking her up when, whereas my other poodle, I could pick her up anytime and she'll love it, you know, so it's, it's really paying attention to your dog's body language,

That's it.

really getting to know your dog and what your dog likes and dislikes,

Yeah,

and that's the best way to build trust with them. And

it.

I don't think, I think when you've had one of those puppies, build that bond first. Yeah, it's great to have a dog that can sit, that can do tricks. But I really feel that if you build a bond with your dog first, they'll want to do training with you later.

Absolutely. Brilliant. Yeah, really big on that bond and that relationship and body language and stuff. So we've covered so much, it's been such a jam packed episode. So we're gonna for the last five or so minutes, start to bring it around to a close and just ask you some questions. final questions or tips. If I may, I did want to quickly touch on a couple of things that I want to say about obviously how important is to desensitize a puppy to the groomers.

Yeah,

to say that in my puppy classes, but

brilliant.

just like just like going to the vet. Take them in there every week and get the, the, the receptionist or the, the nurse to give them a treat and that, so that they're not just deeming it a stressful experience every time they go in. So

Yeah,

like a grooming salon is take them for like, for these puppy introductions and get them used to the environment and

yeah. Just be very careful when you're talking about groomers and puppy introductions, because for some groomers a puppy introduction is a bath and a blow dry.

Right. Okay. Yes.

So. If you're talking about that, be really specific of what you want them to do. So if you want to take your dog into a grooming salon to get it used to being used to the surroundings first, make it really specific to the groomer that that's all you want to do. You want to take them in for five minutes. You may have to pay for that time, but it's worth it in the long run.

it is.

So, I've had a lot of Puppies come to me after having one session with another. I've been through another groomer's puppy introduction package, which is really not a puppy introduction package. It's a bath. For example, if you take it to a well known door groomers, a puppy introduction is a bath and dry.

Right.

And that is far too much for some puppies. So

is.

I know you've got a lot of trainers and behaviourists that listen to these podcasts as well. So if I could really encourage them to talk to their pet parents, particularly puppies, about introducing them to a groomer as soon as possible.

Yes.

lot of people will wait until the puppies are five, six months and matted before they take them to a groomer because Cockapoo Breeders in particular will say don't don't get them groomed until they're six months old. Sorry.

No, don't apologise, I love it. It's like,

I'm getting slogged.

normally it's mine on my lap, so.

Yeah, so cockapoo, a lot of cockapoo breeders will say don't get them groomed until six months by which they're fully matted and it surrenders for them. So as soon as the vaccinations are complete, get them in for short sessions, even if you take them in by prearranged appointment for 10 minutes where the. The groom was just giving them treats,

that's it.

you know, and just make it really positive. And if trainers and behaviourists can talk to their pet parents about that as well, then the word will get spread more quickly.

that's so important. Like I say, I used to do it in my puppy classes, but that's so important and a good message to get out. I want to quickly touch, because you've mentioned calming signals

Yes,

Just in case our listeners, I don't, I don't think I know, and I probably should. What, what are calming signals?

you know what they are when I tell you that, but probably stress indicators. So things

right.

eye,

Oh, yes!

eye, yawning. I

licking.

know them as calming signals because of Turid Rugas.

Oh, yes, yes.

Her,

okay.

book refers to them as calming signals, but other people call them stress indicators.

yeah.

wail eye, the yawning, lip licking, all this.

Poor lift. Blinking. Right, I'm with you, right.

Yeah.

your top tips for a happy groomed dog. If you could give dog parents three golden grooming rules, what would they be?

Okay. So make sure you get a fifth purpose groom. So if your dog is gonna, if you've got a cockapoo that's going in fields every day, have a short trim. Don't make them have a really fancy style that's long that you've got to bath and brush out every day, particularly if they don't enjoy it. Introduce them to grooming. as puppies and make it really positive. And there was another one. What was the other one I was going to say? Make sure you go to the groomers on a regular basis. So some guardians will probably only take the dog to the groomers when they think they need grooming. So they might be 10, 12 weeks apart. That doesn't make for a pleasant experience if your dog's matted. So

It's been

find a groomer that your dog, not necessarily that you like, that your dog likes. and go on a regular basis. So I have most dogs in every six weeks, some every four weeks, but I don't let them go any longer than eight weeks, especially if you've got a cockapoo, preferably six weeks. So most of my dogs are on a six week cycle.

Yeah, am I a toy poodle or something?

Yeah, I won't take a dog on that only comes in two or three times a year.

Nah.

it's not fair on the dog.

Yeah.

can't do anything with the dog. Two or three times a year,

No. That's

it's, you know, if I'm doing desensitization or counter conditioner. I can't work with that. Oh, there's lots of lights above. We did write one down though, so I'm actually going to go back and write one down.

okay. No. okay.

Oh yeah, there is a bit of a, and it applies to dog training as well, just because we can doesn't mean we should. So yeah, we can groom a dog, we can put lots of safety aids on. I'm careful not to use restraints though. We can use multiple safety restraints. We can use a muzzle. We can have somebody hold the dog and force them to be groomed. But just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Yeah, brilliant. So thank you so much for joining me on the yappy hour

Yeah, I think it's a bit longer than an hour today.

I don't care and I really don't mind. I kind of there is, I knew it would be and there was just so much we I wanted to cover and I definitely want to get you back on in the future because I feel we've only just

Oh, that would be amazing.

surface. But where can our listeners find out more? More about you. If they want to learn about you or book a session.

Okay, so my, my business is called Happy Pauses with Sue, but most people now know me as taking the Girl outta Grooming dog. So I have got a website, which is www happy pauses with sue.co.uk. But most people come through. find me through my Facebook page, which is taking the girl out of grooming dog.

Yeah.

So yeah, if you join that Facebook group, anybody can join. It doesn't matter whether you're a trainer, a groomer, a guardian, physiotherapist, anybody can join my group as long as they ask, answer the joining questions.

Yeah.

and it really is I'm really proud of the group because it is all force free

Yes.

occasionally. will get people recommending a muzzle and that's taken off straight away.

Yeah.

And it's not that we're not, it's not that we're against muzzles, it's just that if you are going to use a muzzle, there needs to be muzzle trained.

Absolutely.

So yeah, so my home, say my, my own website is happy paws with Sue, but most people get to know me now through taking the girl out of grooming dogs on Facebook.

are

And of course,

in?

I'm in Leicester.

Leicester. Yeah.

yeah.

Brilliant.

I have got the three books as well if people, but again they can learn about that through my Facebook page and at the beginning of March, I'm going to be launching a new education program,

Oh.

which is going to include stuff like body language how the brain works. Aimed at groomers, but I've already got guardians interested as well, and there's going to be, there's going to be loads of information on there about, you know, a bit about dog behaviour to set the scene and so people understand why. Because I think grooming is important, but then there's going to be information about talent and t touch animal sense of education. I'm going to do a boast now because I was the first groomer in the world to use free work in the grooming salon.

You boast away. I love that.

Yeah, I was the first groomer in the world to use it because I'm one of Sarah's advanced hooters.

Oh, okay.

So yeah, I was, I was at the farm when she first introduced ACE free work to us. I forgot what I was going to say now.

Oh, just about your education programs

Yeah, so it's going to include,

amazing that,

it'll have free work on there as well. But I've put together a really long list of quick hacks. So quick training things, there is a complete section on different training techniques, positive based training techniques, but then there's going to be a module on really quick hacks that you can use to make grooming easier in the salon or at home. So really it's a lot of it is what I've learned over the years and then adapted to grooming. So hopefully that's been really successful as well. Yeah.

you so much for joining me today on

You're welcome.

Hour, powered by Yappily. Absolutely amazing and I've loved chatting to you and getting all your words of wisdom. We will definitely have you back in the future.

Oh, thank you.

but like I say, thank you for joining me and I look forward to speaking to you again soon.

Lovely, thank you.

Right, let's do a quick recap of today's episode with Sue Williamson, because we covered a lot. Consent based grooming isn't just about looks, it's about making the experience stress free and enjoyable for the dog. Grooming is an essential part of a dog's well being. Neglecting it can lead to discomfort. matting and even health issues. Anxious or sensitive dogs can learn to enjoy grooming with the right approach, patience and desensitization. Brushing a, brushing at home is crucial. Waiting until your dog is a matted mess before seeing the groomer isn't fair to them. or your groomer. Pet parents play a huge role in making grooming a positive experience. Simple things like rewarding calm behaviour and getting dogs used to handling can make a big difference. Huge thanks to Sue for sharing her wisdom with us today. If you found this episode helpful, don't Don't forget to hit that subscribe button, share it with your fellow dog parents and leave us a review. It really helps us to reach more people who want to give their dogs the best life possible. You can also find Sue and her work at Happy Paws with Sue. That's it for today's video. Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. Until next time, keep your pups healthy, happy and well groomed. I'll see you next time.