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Hello and welcome to another

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episode of the Operation through a

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podcast for Close.

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I am Brandon Metzger.

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Alongside my co-host, Bethany airs.

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How are you, Bethany?

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I'm just tired.

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It's Christmas time almost.

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And I find this time

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of year really hard because there's

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so much we have to do work wise.

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And all of the planning and all of

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the next year stuff and closing all

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of the deals and go, go,

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go and parties and silly season.

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But at the same time, the sun's

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going down at, what, 330?

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Sunrise this morning was eight.

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The world is cocooning

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and sleeping.

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It's dark all the time.

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And yet we're trying to force our

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bodies to be the

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most active.

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Last week was so busy because

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we had our board

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meeting for provisional budget

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approval, so we've had to be doing

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the budgets.

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We have end of year reviews

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and pay rises to talk about.

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And you're still

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working on closing deals.

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And then also on top of that,

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because I'm on other boards.

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I had one board meeting

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and one meeting at 645

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in the morning, the day after the

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Christmas party.

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I'm sure you were on point in terms

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of your feedback to that company.

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And that was talking about a

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fundraise. And so just like the only

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time they could fit in.

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And then we recorded

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this podcast after that.

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So I was just broken.

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So I spent the entire weekend doing

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nothing.

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I have both boys back home.

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They've taken over our lives.

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We don't have a single glass in the

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house. I don't know where they go.

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They were home less than 24 hours in

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every single glass in the house that

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disappeared.

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It's a skill.

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I'm not quite sure what kind of

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skill that is, per say, but that is

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a skill.

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It is a skill. And then also just

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having four people instead of two

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people in the house means the

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dishwasher is going all the time.

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I feel like I'm ever doing is

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unloading the dishwasher.

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So no, not feeling particularly

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relaxed or ready

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for this. And then I absolutely

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love my in-laws and I'm serious.

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I'm not somebody who doesn't like

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their in-laws and they're coming for

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Christmas.

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But right now, the idea of preparing

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Christmas is wildly overwhelming.

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And so I spent the weekend trying to

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find places to maybe go out to eat,

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but nobody's keen.

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Nothing looks great.

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And also, like set menus for 95

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pounds a head.

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That is standard these days.

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I think we want to set Christmas

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dinner. I mean, you're looking at at

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least 100 pounds per person.

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Which is crazy.

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And then like I was looking at them

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and they didn't even include the

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sides for that price.

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It's like, what do

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I do? You have to pay staff extra.

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But yeah, so because

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that's like 600 pounds for

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six of us to go out and although I

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really don't want to cook, that's

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maybe a bit toppy, although

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it's great to just have that break

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because every Christmas

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I do everything because

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gender And so

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over the years I've gotten more

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and more efficient.

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So I buy everything pre-made,

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so you just have to hit it.

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Except I still need to make the meat

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and it still takes a whole day

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because of timings.

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And I have this list

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and I have to think about it and

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our kitchen is separate to

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the rest of the house.

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And so everybody just sits in the

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other room having a great time.

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And I'm in the kitchen for the whole

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day.

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Bethany, where is my eggnog?

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What's happening?

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Yeah.

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It's because I'm the only one who

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actually cares about Christmas.

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Like this year, I was saying to my

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husband that he's going to have to

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help because although I'm the only

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one that cares about Christmas,

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everybody else still benefits from

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Christmas. And I don't want to just

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be there all by myself and I'm

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exhausted and I can't quite imagine

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it right now.

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So, yeah, so Christmas

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time for relaxation.

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So on that note, why don't we flip

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on over to what is a wonderful topic

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today we have.

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What is a CEO's strengths and

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gaps?

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And we have an amazing guest for

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this, which is David Angels.

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She is the founder of the CEO

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Roundtable, which we are part

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as well, and the former CEO of

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Wayne County.

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And more broadly, David is really

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the CEO coach of note, I would say,

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in London as it stands right now.

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So before we get to the he wanted to

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talk about the strengths

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side of things.

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So I'll go through the strengths one

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by one and I'll just kind of quote

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them as the way that she described

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it and maybe just get your view on

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how do you learn that particular

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thing or get better at it.

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And the first one that she talked

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about was being highly adaptable

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and flexible and approach listening

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to the opinions of others and

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seeking to understand with empathy.

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So if you want to get better

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at being adaptable and flexible

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in your approach, what are some

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things that we could throw out there

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to folks to think about?

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Well, it's funny because part of

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Wind Avenue was going through the

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strengths and the weaknesses or the

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strengths and the gaps, I would say

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is that a lot of the strengths seem

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to be attributes, whereas the gaps

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are like gaps in knowledge.

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So I didn't think we were comparing

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apples and oranges.

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And so some of that

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is just an attribute to some

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extent you're born with the ability

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or not, but then you can get better

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at it. I was not a particularly

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patient person and I've definitely

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learned to listen more as I've

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gotten older, and that has been

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a combination of noticing.

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I was impatient and exploring why

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I'm not patient.

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And what does that mean about me and

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what are my insecurities

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that are feeding it. So that's part

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of like therapy and doing the work

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and introspection.

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And then the other part is just

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practice.

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So just listening

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and see what happens when you're not

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trying to jump in with your ideas

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and have faith that your

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idea will come up, you know, when

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there's time. But otherwise

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just hold on to what the other

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person is saying and the number

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of times where somebody has an idea

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and I'm like, Ooh, yes, that's a

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really good idea for all these

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different reasons. And in my head I

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just go and we'll wait.

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And they might talk longer than I

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want and they might be a bit rumbly,

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but the nine times out of ten get

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to all of the different reasons why

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it's a good idea and the

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interconnects that I also

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had. And it's just like, okay, look,

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I can have faith that other people

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can figure out these interconnects

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too, and that they might

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not realize why their idea is a good

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idea and they have to think it

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through out loud.

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But they get to all those points.

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And so it just becomes

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an ability to let go

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and trust other people more,

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because over time it's proven

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over and over again. So it's kind of

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like practice, see that it works,

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reinforces it, continue to practice.

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So the second one she'd spoken

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about was a high resilience

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threshold, working through barriers

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arising and committing

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wholeheartedly.

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So what do you make of this in terms

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of getting better at that?

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I just laughing at my preamble,

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which I think is all about I was.

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Really.

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Digging deep, being resilience,

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ignoring your own needs.

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Yeah, maybe not the healthiest way

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of doing that, but I think

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resilience really is one of those

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that you have a certain amount

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that you're born with and then you

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can reinforce it.

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Some people are just not as

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resilient as others and maybe

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sometimes not just resilience, but

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also like questioning ambition and

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what you want in life, because it's

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fine to choose different levels of

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grit and hard work.

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So I have been born

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and blessed and cursed

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with a massive period and work

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ethic. You know, I work hard,

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I do my a star.

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I am not lazy, but the

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resilience for me comes from

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not just working hard because

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they'll break yourself, but

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taking time to reflect after

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something shitty has happened and

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seeing that I survived it.

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So the next time something shitty

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happens, I know I'll be able to

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survive it again.

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I guess it's like I just really like

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empirical evidence.

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So I take the time to review my

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empirical evidence and

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I have empirical evidence that I'm

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resilient and therefore believe I

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can do it again.

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I've had this conversation many

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times in the past where at the end

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of the day, there's been some

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massive issue within the company.

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A single person or several people

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have freaked out about whatever is

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going on and, you

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know, sitting down with them to talk

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them through what has happened.

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And the fact of the matter is we

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live to fight another day.

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And regardless of what's happened,

285
00:08:12,770 --> 00:08:13,879
things are going to move on.

286
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,799
So as long as we kind of anchor

287
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:16,969
ourselves to what we're trying to

288
00:08:16,970 --> 00:08:18,859
accomplish for the

289
00:08:18,860 --> 00:08:20,809
purpose of why we're here and why

290
00:08:20,810 --> 00:08:21,799
we're at this company, why we're

291
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,509
bothering to wake up the morning and

292
00:08:23,510 --> 00:08:24,409
we'll get past this.

293
00:08:24,410 --> 00:08:25,969
I think that kind of mentality and

294
00:08:25,970 --> 00:08:27,739
mindset, kind of sharing that with

295
00:08:27,740 --> 00:08:29,569
individuals I think usually tends to

296
00:08:29,570 --> 00:08:30,379
help.

297
00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:31,399
So you're actually building

298
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,589
resilience within your team

299
00:08:33,590 --> 00:08:34,699
rather than talking about how to

300
00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:36,469
build resilience within yourself.

301
00:08:36,470 --> 00:08:37,609
I guess kind of both in a way,

302
00:08:37,610 --> 00:08:39,439
because I tell myself the same

303
00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,178
thing. I think as you get older and

304
00:08:41,179 --> 00:08:42,649
more mature, I think these

305
00:08:42,650 --> 00:08:44,359
machinations of company tend to

306
00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:45,859
impact you less and you care less

307
00:08:45,860 --> 00:08:46,639
about them in a sense.

308
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:47,959
Like you care a lot about your

309
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:49,909
career and your focus and delivering

310
00:08:49,910 --> 00:08:51,609
good results. But it's like.

311
00:08:51,610 --> 00:08:52,989
Holding everything quite lightly, I

312
00:08:52,990 --> 00:08:54,249
guess, in terms of how it actually

313
00:08:54,250 --> 00:08:55,869
impacts you. And I feel like only

314
00:08:55,870 --> 00:08:57,429
through experience and time I've

315
00:08:57,430 --> 00:08:59,589
gotten to a place where the minutiae

316
00:08:59,590 --> 00:09:00,789
of what happens in these companies

317
00:09:00,790 --> 00:09:02,529
does not impact me or affect me

318
00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:04,449
elicits, you know, crazy dramatic, I

319
00:09:04,450 --> 00:09:05,259
suppose.

320
00:09:05,260 --> 00:09:06,129
Take it for what it is.

321
00:09:06,130 --> 00:09:07,419
It's a software company.

322
00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:08,469
Nobody's going to die.

323
00:09:08,470 --> 00:09:09,429
We're going to move on.

324
00:09:09,430 --> 00:09:11,089
I can have a great career regardless

325
00:09:11,090 --> 00:09:12,189
of whether this company succeeds or

326
00:09:12,190 --> 00:09:13,329
not. But I'm here.

327
00:09:13,330 --> 00:09:14,829
And because I'm here, I want to make

328
00:09:14,830 --> 00:09:16,569
this work and I want to do my best

329
00:09:16,570 --> 00:09:18,159
job to make that happen, I guess.

330
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:19,509
So I think it's a bit of like that

331
00:09:19,510 --> 00:09:20,949
thinking that I'm trying to like

332
00:09:20,950 --> 00:09:22,719
plant in myself and also plant in

333
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,789
others where we're here

334
00:09:24,790 --> 00:09:26,829
eight hours a day working our asses

335
00:09:26,830 --> 00:09:28,569
off. Let's make an impact.

336
00:09:28,570 --> 00:09:30,429
Perspective is always very good.

337
00:09:30,430 --> 00:09:31,539
I think just because of the year

338
00:09:31,540 --> 00:09:33,099
that I've had. As everybody knows,

339
00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:34,509
my resilience wasn't actually

340
00:09:34,510 --> 00:09:36,069
necessarily work related.

341
00:09:36,070 --> 00:09:37,809
Like, there's just been a lot of

342
00:09:37,810 --> 00:09:39,669
deaths this year to get over and

343
00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:41,529
a lot of health issues where

344
00:09:41,530 --> 00:09:43,719
there's still a level of resilience

345
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:44,859
and understanding that life can

346
00:09:44,860 --> 00:09:46,689
throw a lot at you or a lot at

347
00:09:46,690 --> 00:09:48,429
me and I can survive it.

348
00:09:48,430 --> 00:09:50,319
All right. Number three, gap

349
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:51,129
filling.

350
00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:53,079
So overseeing and managing areas

351
00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:54,429
where there may be functional

352
00:09:54,430 --> 00:09:56,469
leaders missing and filling those

353
00:09:56,470 --> 00:09:58,479
gaps for whatever time period.

354
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,669
How do you get good at that?

355
00:10:00,670 --> 00:10:01,929
I don't know how you get good at it.

356
00:10:01,930 --> 00:10:03,039
I don't know if you should get good

357
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:04,269
at it, but it just seems to be,

358
00:10:04,270 --> 00:10:06,549
again, something that happens a lot.

359
00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:08,379
I like that has been

360
00:10:08,380 --> 00:10:10,269
the number one

361
00:10:10,270 --> 00:10:12,159
story of my career

362
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,509
at New Voice Media.

363
00:10:13,510 --> 00:10:15,309
I was SVP of Strategy, but I

364
00:10:15,310 --> 00:10:17,139
basically did all of

365
00:10:17,140 --> 00:10:18,789
the bits of other people's jobs that

366
00:10:18,790 --> 00:10:20,409
didn't know how to do and was like

367
00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:22,299
the unsung hero of all of

368
00:10:22,300 --> 00:10:24,369
those things. Or as our

369
00:10:24,370 --> 00:10:26,589
very scary French

370
00:10:26,590 --> 00:10:28,599
chair called it, I was in the shit

371
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:29,259
list.

372
00:10:29,260 --> 00:10:30,419
Right. Okay, that's that's.

373
00:10:30,420 --> 00:10:31,359
That's great.

374
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,489
Yeah. It was like, so inspiring.

375
00:10:33,490 --> 00:10:35,859
And then even now at

376
00:10:35,860 --> 00:10:37,809
peak, we have

377
00:10:37,810 --> 00:10:39,699
our head of account management going

378
00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:41,019
on maternity leave.

379
00:10:41,020 --> 00:10:43,119
And guess who's now the acting Matt

380
00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:44,679
leave cover.

381
00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:45,279
Nice.

382
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,529
Right on top of everything else.

383
00:10:47,530 --> 00:10:48,969
Yeah.

384
00:10:48,970 --> 00:10:50,559
What was the most random function

385
00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:53,139
you've ever led for a while.

386
00:10:53,140 --> 00:10:54,549
The marketing one does bring to mind

387
00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:57,009
because marketing is probably

388
00:10:57,010 --> 00:10:59,739
where I'm least

389
00:10:59,740 --> 00:11:01,719
knowledgeable but have

390
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:02,799
the biggest opinion.

391
00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:05,329
So it's a bad.

392
00:11:05,330 --> 00:11:07,359
Nightmare for the marketing team.

393
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:08,679
Exactly.

394
00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:10,509
But in fairness to myself, I try to

395
00:11:10,510 --> 00:11:12,279
hold all that stuff in check and do

396
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:13,779
my best job to be a proper CEO,

397
00:11:13,780 --> 00:11:15,759
which is listen to what's happening.

398
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:16,839
Listen to the experts that are on

399
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,549
the ground list, experts that I know

400
00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:19,779
outside the company that are good

401
00:11:19,780 --> 00:11:21,699
marketers and try

402
00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:23,229
to ask really smart and useful

403
00:11:23,230 --> 00:11:24,939
questions to make sure that we're

404
00:11:24,940 --> 00:11:26,199
thinking about the right things

405
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:27,699
where whether I'm the expert or not

406
00:11:27,700 --> 00:11:28,689
in that case doesn't matter.

407
00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:30,129
But as long as I'm kind of holding

408
00:11:30,130 --> 00:11:31,509
people to account, asking good

409
00:11:31,510 --> 00:11:32,829
questions, driving the program

410
00:11:32,830 --> 00:11:34,269
forward, let the experts kind of do

411
00:11:34,270 --> 00:11:36,069
their thing, then generally

412
00:11:36,070 --> 00:11:37,239
speaking, you're in a decent

413
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,089
position. So what's your most random

414
00:11:40,090 --> 00:11:41,199
backfill?

415
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,479
For me, it was

416
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:44,409
s.p.a..

417
00:11:44,410 --> 00:11:46,539
So financial planning and analysis,

418
00:11:46,540 --> 00:11:48,909
because I didn't know it was

419
00:11:48,910 --> 00:11:49,749
a thing.

420
00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:51,219
I didn't know it was a discipline.

421
00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:53,109
I just was self-taught into

422
00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:54,729
figuring out how to build models.

423
00:11:54,730 --> 00:11:56,769
And for like three and a half years

424
00:11:56,770 --> 00:11:58,299
at peak, I was the FP and a

425
00:11:58,300 --> 00:11:59,109
function.

426
00:11:59,110 --> 00:12:01,899
So basically our CFO

427
00:12:01,900 --> 00:12:04,569
says looking at the future

428
00:12:04,570 --> 00:12:07,059
is what strategy does.

429
00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:09,219
You're looking at the future.

430
00:12:09,220 --> 00:12:10,479
In order to look at it, you need to

431
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:11,739
model it.

432
00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:13,899
Go And I did

433
00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:15,879
because I was young

434
00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:17,599
and inexperienced in experience and

435
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:18,519
didn't realize.

436
00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,679
And so I did it for

437
00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:21,939
three and a half years.

438
00:12:21,940 --> 00:12:23,799
And then we got bigger and then we

439
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,839
raised money from T V,

440
00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,689
and then we had like more

441
00:12:28,690 --> 00:12:30,729
sophisticated people come in

442
00:12:30,730 --> 00:12:32,979
and a new CFO who hired

443
00:12:32,980 --> 00:12:35,679
somebody whose entire job was FPGA.

444
00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:37,509
And I was like, this is

445
00:12:37,510 --> 00:12:38,289
a discipline.

446
00:12:38,290 --> 00:12:39,609
This is a job. Like this is one

447
00:12:39,610 --> 00:12:41,229
person's job. This is a just one

448
00:12:41,230 --> 00:12:42,549
fifth of my job.

449
00:12:42,550 --> 00:12:44,529
It was such an eye opener for me,

450
00:12:44,530 --> 00:12:46,449
and it was like we raised

451
00:12:46,450 --> 00:12:48,399
120 million off the back of my

452
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:49,569
mom.

453
00:12:49,570 --> 00:12:50,570
Really?

454
00:12:51,070 --> 00:12:51,909
Wow. Okay.

455
00:12:51,910 --> 00:12:52,910
That's impressive.

456
00:12:54,130 --> 00:12:55,509
No idea what I was doing.

457
00:12:55,510 --> 00:12:56,479
That was enough logic.

458
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:57,669
I was fine. Yeah.

459
00:12:57,670 --> 00:12:58,839
Wow. That's amazing.

460
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:00,369
Especially like fundraising.

461
00:13:00,370 --> 00:13:01,719
That amount of money based off a

462
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,519
model with a nonprofessional at the

463
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:04,989
helm of it.

464
00:13:04,990 --> 00:13:07,839
So for Bessemer and TCV both.

465
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:08,889
Actually, this is a question for

466
00:13:08,890 --> 00:13:10,059
you. When do you need proper

467
00:13:10,060 --> 00:13:10,839
modeling, do you think?

468
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:12,549
In 2024?

469
00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:14,469
I mean way, way before we

470
00:13:14,470 --> 00:13:15,470
had it,

471
00:13:16,540 --> 00:13:18,459
yeah. I think with your series

472
00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:20,769
A, given the size of Series A's now

473
00:13:20,770 --> 00:13:23,499
a days, you definitely need

474
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:25,179
a finance professional.

475
00:13:25,180 --> 00:13:26,289
You need it for the model in the

476
00:13:26,290 --> 00:13:28,209
future and you need it

477
00:13:28,210 --> 00:13:30,369
for not

478
00:13:30,370 --> 00:13:32,019
ridiculously spending your money on

479
00:13:32,020 --> 00:13:33,309
stupid things.

480
00:13:33,310 --> 00:13:34,629
Like it's just a good bit of

481
00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:35,919
experience.

482
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,659
I think part of the reason why we

483
00:13:37,660 --> 00:13:39,279
could get away with me doing

484
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,229
whatever I was doing was

485
00:13:41,230 --> 00:13:43,149
because we had a very experienced

486
00:13:43,150 --> 00:13:44,319
team except for me.

487
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,179
I was the least experienced

488
00:13:46,180 --> 00:13:46,959
by far.

489
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,869
And so although I was the

490
00:13:49,870 --> 00:13:51,109
glue that held things.

491
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:52,519
Together and did everybody's shit

492
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:53,389
jobs.

493
00:13:53,390 --> 00:13:55,489
They also gave me

494
00:13:55,490 --> 00:13:57,379
context and experience that I

495
00:13:57,380 --> 00:13:58,909
didn't know about.

496
00:13:58,910 --> 00:14:01,669
And you also need experience

497
00:14:01,670 --> 00:14:03,019
and you need to find it somehow.

498
00:14:03,020 --> 00:14:04,999
You need a combination of people who

499
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,559
don't have experience with people

500
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:07,339
who do.

501
00:14:07,340 --> 00:14:09,289
And what I see a lot is

502
00:14:09,290 --> 00:14:11,269
companies that get to their series

503
00:14:11,270 --> 00:14:13,609
A where just everybody

504
00:14:13,610 --> 00:14:15,499
is new to the world.

505
00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:17,779
And now once you have

506
00:14:17,780 --> 00:14:19,669
a sizable amount of money in your

507
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:21,439
bank account, you start to need to

508
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:22,969
have some people who are not new to

509
00:14:22,970 --> 00:14:23,989
the world.

510
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:25,459
Typically, when you come in to a

511
00:14:25,460 --> 00:14:27,319
series A, the team,

512
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,419
a lot of teams are pure

513
00:14:29,420 --> 00:14:30,859
newbies to the world, as you've

514
00:14:30,860 --> 00:14:31,849
described it.

515
00:14:31,850 --> 00:14:33,379
How many kind of like more senior

516
00:14:33,380 --> 00:14:34,699
executives do you think you need on

517
00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:36,049
the pathway from A to B?

518
00:14:36,050 --> 00:14:37,429
So we had to mix that team a little

519
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:39,769
bit in terms of seniority.

520
00:14:39,770 --> 00:14:41,179
So I definitely go for some sort of

521
00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:43,069
finance

522
00:14:43,070 --> 00:14:44,899
person. I go for I hate

523
00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:46,219
the term, but I don't know how else

524
00:14:46,220 --> 00:14:47,929
to say it. A finance person with an

525
00:14:47,930 --> 00:14:49,819
operations fight.

526
00:14:49,820 --> 00:14:51,829
So you can get some amount

527
00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:54,229
of like, what's this leadership

528
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:55,669
team do? Who should be in the

529
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:56,569
leadership team?

530
00:14:56,570 --> 00:14:58,549
The importance of meeting regularly,

531
00:14:58,550 --> 00:15:00,319
the importance of having clear

532
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,179
reporting, plus a

533
00:15:02,180 --> 00:15:04,219
good model plus fiscal

534
00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:05,629
responsibility.

535
00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:07,489
And then I would

536
00:15:07,490 --> 00:15:09,499
put somebody in the technical area

537
00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:11,119
as well, because quite often

538
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,459
technical co-founders are great at

539
00:15:13,460 --> 00:15:15,049
hacking stuff together, but don't

540
00:15:15,050 --> 00:15:16,099
actually know how to scale an

541
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:18,379
organization as you tend

542
00:15:18,380 --> 00:15:20,059
to need somebody who knows how to

543
00:15:20,060 --> 00:15:22,189
scale on the

544
00:15:22,190 --> 00:15:24,139
product side, and those would be

545
00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:26,269
the minimal viable hires

546
00:15:26,270 --> 00:15:27,529
I would make.

547
00:15:27,530 --> 00:15:29,419
So why don't we park it here and

548
00:15:29,420 --> 00:15:30,799
get on to our conversation with

549
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:31,800
Tiffany and Ole's.

550
00:15:35,870 --> 00:15:37,819
So what are the strengths of CEOs

551
00:15:37,820 --> 00:15:39,319
en masse? What does that look like

552
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:40,249
for us?

553
00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:42,529
So the ones that indexed most

554
00:15:42,530 --> 00:15:44,449
highly and you won't

555
00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:45,589
be surprised by some of these.

556
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:47,569
Definitely. If I wasn't building

557
00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:48,889
strong relationships with key

558
00:15:48,890 --> 00:15:50,479
decision makers in the business.

559
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,519
And that means anywhere, right,

560
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,619
say board here

561
00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:56,519
below and rest of team.

562
00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,439
And I feel like that's the real

563
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,179
strength of CEOs generally like

564
00:15:59,180 --> 00:16:00,919
they're generally very humble

565
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,019
servant leadership able to

566
00:16:03,020 --> 00:16:04,369
really connect and take people on

567
00:16:04,370 --> 00:16:05,929
the journey. Then you've got owning

568
00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:07,549
and managing their functional areas

569
00:16:07,550 --> 00:16:09,349
that lend well to their strengths.

570
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:11,179
They're very resilient, as you would

571
00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:13,099
imagine, from all the things that

572
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:14,989
they then have to do and go through.

573
00:16:14,990 --> 00:16:16,519
And when they work through barriers,

574
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,379
they tend to be quite

575
00:16:18,380 --> 00:16:19,939
consensus driven in their approach

576
00:16:19,940 --> 00:16:21,829
with others and then will commit

577
00:16:21,830 --> 00:16:23,839
wholeheartedly towards decided

578
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,799
the highly adaptable, flexible.

579
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,739
They love corralling other people's

580
00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:29,329
opinions, understanding what other

581
00:16:29,330 --> 00:16:31,309
people think situations and

582
00:16:31,310 --> 00:16:33,019
they embrace perspectives even when

583
00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:34,579
they're not their own.

584
00:16:34,580 --> 00:16:36,349
So they can be that person who

585
00:16:36,350 --> 00:16:38,719
really helps to homogenize

586
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,969
and curate opinions

587
00:16:40,970 --> 00:16:42,319
and understand what different people

588
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:43,339
are thinking.

589
00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:44,629
Gap filling.

590
00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:45,799
No surprise there.

591
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,209
So leading other functional areas

592
00:16:47,210 --> 00:16:49,039
when there's a leader missing, we

593
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:50,779
get drafted into that lot.

594
00:16:50,780 --> 00:16:52,609
And then changing processes if

595
00:16:52,610 --> 00:16:54,469
they're not effective, but doing

596
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:56,929
it in a very systematic, pragmatic

597
00:16:56,930 --> 00:16:57,709
way.

598
00:16:57,710 --> 00:16:59,509
And I often hear this spoken about

599
00:16:59,510 --> 00:17:00,979
as treating it like product.

600
00:17:00,980 --> 00:17:02,539
So internal stakeholders, your

601
00:17:02,540 --> 00:17:03,499
customer.

602
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:05,509
So thinking about that way,

603
00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:06,439
those are the biggest drags. I mean,

604
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,419
there are lots, right? And this is a

605
00:17:08,420 --> 00:17:10,939
certain segment of a population,

606
00:17:10,940 --> 00:17:12,139
but it is the segment of the

607
00:17:12,140 --> 00:17:13,338
population. It was very mixed in

608
00:17:13,339 --> 00:17:15,709
terms of gender, so 5050 gender.

609
00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:17,838
And actually, in terms of the CEOs

610
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:19,789
that we got responses back from,

611
00:17:19,790 --> 00:17:21,739
these are not incredibly early stage

612
00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:23,358
CEOs. These are actually people who

613
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,068
are quite experienced in their

614
00:17:25,069 --> 00:17:26,549
roles. So this is why I thought was

615
00:17:26,550 --> 00:17:27,828
super interesting because some of

616
00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:29,629
the gaps then are interesting given

617
00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:30,469
that's the context.

618
00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:32,359
They're not newbie CEOs

619
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:34,279
who are early stage of their career.

620
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:35,299
These are folks who've been doing it

621
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:36,469
for a little while.

622
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:37,999
Given that we're talking about

623
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,699
fairly senior or senior CEOs,

624
00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:42,139
I don't know. How dare we have gaps

625
00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:43,819
because we're perfectionists where

626
00:17:43,820 --> 00:17:45,829
they start to kids.

627
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:47,809
What are those gaps that you find in

628
00:17:47,810 --> 00:17:48,979
the CEOs?

629
00:17:48,980 --> 00:17:50,509
The first one and again, there are

630
00:17:50,510 --> 00:17:51,949
some of these where you're like,

631
00:17:51,950 --> 00:17:52,879
Yes.

632
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,379
Generally speaking, this would seem

633
00:17:54,380 --> 00:17:56,299
to be a gap. But being an external

634
00:17:56,300 --> 00:17:58,129
spokesperson for the business

635
00:17:58,130 --> 00:18:00,049
and whether that's attending

636
00:18:00,050 --> 00:18:02,089
networking events, speaking

637
00:18:02,090 --> 00:18:03,679
at conferences.

638
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,479
And I actually love this one because

639
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,249
this one is incredibly nuanced, I

640
00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:09,739
think, around

641
00:18:09,740 --> 00:18:11,419
the fact that actually some CEOs are

642
00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:12,769
incredibly comfortable being an

643
00:18:12,770 --> 00:18:14,929
internal spokesperson.

644
00:18:14,930 --> 00:18:17,389
That's why external is interesting.

645
00:18:17,390 --> 00:18:18,739
And even those CEOs who are

646
00:18:18,740 --> 00:18:19,939
incredibly comfortable being an

647
00:18:19,940 --> 00:18:21,499
internal spokesperson sometimes

648
00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:23,899
struggle speaking at board level,

649
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:25,669
which again is the tipping point

650
00:18:25,670 --> 00:18:27,199
possibly between internal and

651
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,359
external. Maybe I'm wondering

652
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:31,189
if it's struggling to speak at the

653
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:33,649
board or this dynamic around

654
00:18:33,650 --> 00:18:35,599
disagreeing commit and then showing

655
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,009
a united front in front of the

656
00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:38,179
board. This is something I

657
00:18:38,180 --> 00:18:39,799
definitely found difficult myself

658
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,329
the last time around because I

659
00:18:41,330 --> 00:18:43,939
wouldn't necessarily always agree

660
00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:45,289
with the decisions that had been

661
00:18:45,290 --> 00:18:46,879
made that we were then representing

662
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:47,869
to the board.

663
00:18:47,870 --> 00:18:49,639
And then if I was asked specifically

664
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,499
my opinion, I

665
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:53,629
would find it difficult because

666
00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:55,399
I didn't want to show not a united

667
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,229
front. And it's like, where

668
00:18:57,230 --> 00:18:58,069
is your loyalty?

669
00:18:58,070 --> 00:18:59,719
Is your loyalty with the board or is

670
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,609
your loyalty with the exact

671
00:19:01,610 --> 00:19:03,469
team slash the CEO

672
00:19:03,470 --> 00:19:05,089
as I don't know if it's a discomfort

673
00:19:05,090 --> 00:19:07,009
so much as a hard

674
00:19:07,010 --> 00:19:08,059
place to be.

675
00:19:08,060 --> 00:19:10,369
And having to decide when

676
00:19:10,370 --> 00:19:12,229
you state your ground and

677
00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:14,329
when you disagree and commit.

678
00:19:14,330 --> 00:19:15,949
I also found it quite difficult

679
00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:17,899
sometimes in board situations, this

680
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:19,999
when I was operating to know

681
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,589
what my role was.

682
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:22,849
And it sounds a bit weird, but it's

683
00:19:22,850 --> 00:19:24,679
like if the CEO

684
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,149
is updating on all of these

685
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:27,919
different things and he's this sort

686
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,619
of being the face of the company,

687
00:19:30,620 --> 00:19:32,209
it almost has to be pre-contract

688
00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:33,349
it's that you have a role at the

689
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:34,879
board, otherwise you end up.

690
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:35,509
Sort of.

691
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:36,619
Sitting there.

692
00:19:36,620 --> 00:19:38,599
I think CEOs generally

693
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,609
perceive themselves as very internal

694
00:19:40,610 --> 00:19:42,109
facing people, so they see

695
00:19:42,110 --> 00:19:43,489
themselves as that, you know, they

696
00:19:43,490 --> 00:19:45,109
do the all hands, the strategic golf

697
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:46,519
sites and they may be wonderful

698
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:47,899
speakers, but they don't see

699
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:49,759
themselves as the external person

700
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:50,689
for the company. They're their

701
00:19:50,690 --> 00:19:52,039
audience. Sales are not the seat of

702
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,419
the company. They don't feel like

703
00:19:53,420 --> 00:19:54,889
it's part of their remit, I think.

704
00:19:54,890 --> 00:19:56,329
So part of it, I think is partially

705
00:19:56,330 --> 00:19:58,519
a mindset shift to understand

706
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,619
that the external side is equally

707
00:20:00,620 --> 00:20:01,699
as important.

708
00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:03,229
And I think that customer

709
00:20:03,230 --> 00:20:05,239
centricity, really understanding

710
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:06,079
some of the issues that they're

711
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,279
having, you know, in much part of

712
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:08,869
senior level, because you can bring

713
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:10,489
that external relationship, that

714
00:20:10,490 --> 00:20:12,019
external kind of understanding back

715
00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:13,099
into the company and have much more

716
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:14,149
of that real connection to the

717
00:20:14,150 --> 00:20:15,739
marketplace. And I think that's not

718
00:20:15,740 --> 00:20:17,359
a sales role and it doesn't have to

719
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:19,759
be a CEO role. It can be a CEO role.

720
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,679
By the way, there's another gap in

721
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,149
there, which is interesting, which

722
00:20:23,150 --> 00:20:24,319
we should come on to talk about.

723
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:25,549
But I was having a fascinating

724
00:20:25,550 --> 00:20:27,829
conversation with Andrew Richardson

725
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:28,799
recently.

726
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:29,659
We were talking about the same

727
00:20:29,660 --> 00:20:30,709
thing.

728
00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:32,059
Lots of CEOs, the external

729
00:20:32,060 --> 00:20:33,829
spokesperson thing can also go to

730
00:20:33,830 --> 00:20:35,279
customer, right?

731
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,199
CEOs can have limited interaction

732
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:38,729
with customers and therefore you

733
00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:40,259
then have less of a connection to a

734
00:20:40,260 --> 00:20:42,209
customer's problems are and so on.

735
00:20:42,210 --> 00:20:43,259
And you don't see yourself as a

736
00:20:43,260 --> 00:20:45,209
salesperson as

737
00:20:45,210 --> 00:20:46,559
such. And I think that could be

738
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,079
quite problematic actually as zero

739
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,099
because you get a whole different

740
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:51,689
view, as you say, on the business by

741
00:20:51,690 --> 00:20:52,949
talking to customers and seeing it

742
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:53,939
from their viewpoint.

743
00:20:53,940 --> 00:20:55,139
But I think there's two elements to

744
00:20:55,140 --> 00:20:56,309
external. There's the external

745
00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:58,199
spokesperson versus having customer

746
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,749
relationships and that spokesperson

747
00:21:00,750 --> 00:21:02,519
I can again see why the CEO might

748
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:03,929
not always feel comfortable doing

749
00:21:03,930 --> 00:21:05,459
that, particularly if you have a

750
00:21:05,460 --> 00:21:07,499
co-founder, CEO

751
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:09,419
or founder CEO, where it's their

752
00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:11,189
vision, their baby.

753
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:12,539
They're the ones who are thinking

754
00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:14,279
five years ahead and evangelizing

755
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,509
all the time.

756
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:17,099
You're never going to sound as good.

757
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:18,479
You're never going to be that

758
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,429
founder who just, like loves it and

759
00:21:20,430 --> 00:21:22,619
thinks about it 24 hours a day.

760
00:21:22,620 --> 00:21:24,239
And so it's around figuring out what

761
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,009
kind of spokesperson you can be,

762
00:21:26,010 --> 00:21:27,989
where you are authentic

763
00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:29,639
and understand the business, but are

764
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,799
not going to necessarily be

765
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,049
emulating our corporate copy of a

766
00:21:34,050 --> 00:21:35,969
founder CEO who's just in

767
00:21:35,970 --> 00:21:37,229
a different level.

768
00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:38,969
Absolutely. And finding the things

769
00:21:38,970 --> 00:21:40,559
that you're passionate about talking

770
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,509
about for you

771
00:21:42,510 --> 00:21:43,979
then will make the whole external

772
00:21:43,980 --> 00:21:45,959
spokesperson piece will be easier.

773
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,249
But I agree with you, it's very

774
00:21:47,250 --> 00:21:48,839
difficult. It's a bit role based.

775
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,789
Again, what's your role in doing

776
00:21:50,790 --> 00:21:52,079
it? Why? What's the outcome?

777
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:53,639
Was the desired outcome of you doing

778
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,379
it? Because whilst it can be to

779
00:21:55,380 --> 00:21:56,939
raise your own brand, this has to be

780
00:21:56,940 --> 00:21:59,369
a business oriented, reasonable say

781
00:21:59,370 --> 00:22:00,269
to do it.

782
00:22:00,270 --> 00:22:01,409
And when I was at mine, Candy, mine

783
00:22:01,410 --> 00:22:03,359
was a lot talent, a lot of talent

784
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,669
related as an encouraging

785
00:22:05,670 --> 00:22:07,109
folks to understand that it was a

786
00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:08,639
great place to be and all of that

787
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:09,989
kind of good stuff bringing people

788
00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:11,849
to us, which I felt like was a great

789
00:22:11,850 --> 00:22:13,979
role actually as an external

790
00:22:13,980 --> 00:22:15,689
spokesperson because I loved being

791
00:22:15,690 --> 00:22:16,799
so much that I could really

792
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,209
evangelize that.

793
00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:19,379
And it was a slightly different

794
00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:21,329
perspective to the see from the CEO

795
00:22:21,330 --> 00:22:23,339
who's talking, as you say, about why

796
00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:24,899
we do what we're doing, how we're

797
00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:26,069
going to go, the vision and the

798
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:27,329
mission and all of that kind of good

799
00:22:27,330 --> 00:22:28,739
stuff. But it's a great one.

800
00:22:28,740 --> 00:22:30,059
And Brandon, you mentioned another

801
00:22:30,060 --> 00:22:31,060
gap.

802
00:22:32,190 --> 00:22:34,349
So Brandon, is all the gaps.

803
00:22:34,350 --> 00:22:35,909
Among the gaps and all of the gaps

804
00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:36,749
right now.

805
00:22:36,750 --> 00:22:37,859
But yeah, so that one was a great

806
00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:39,089
one. Would you like to move to

807
00:22:39,090 --> 00:22:40,199
another gap?

808
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,429
Well, I want to know about the gaps

809
00:22:41,430 --> 00:22:42,819
that Brandon's mentioned.

810
00:22:42,820 --> 00:22:44,129
What are these ones that Rand is

811
00:22:44,130 --> 00:22:45,119
getting?

812
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:47,129
So this one around sort of

813
00:22:47,130 --> 00:22:49,769
being a negotiator,

814
00:22:49,770 --> 00:22:50,879
which is also related to the

815
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:52,739
customer side of things, which

816
00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:53,699
came out of the gap.

817
00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:55,619
And again, understandably, because

818
00:22:55,620 --> 00:22:57,839
whilst you have a group of CEOs,

819
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,059
you may have a spike in customer

820
00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:02,189
operations or go to market

821
00:23:02,190 --> 00:23:04,109
sales, etc., you also

822
00:23:04,110 --> 00:23:05,459
have a lead the day, right?

823
00:23:05,460 --> 00:23:07,319
They have a very different scheme, I

824
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,509
would think, because so many CEOs

825
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:11,129
come with a CFO background.

826
00:23:11,130 --> 00:23:12,719
CFOs are good at negotiating as

827
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,699
well. And really on the money, maybe

828
00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:16,829
it's the CEOs that come from a pure

829
00:23:16,830 --> 00:23:18,419
ops background that struggle with it

830
00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:19,679
because those of us from sales are

831
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,359
used to negotiating and those of us

832
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:23,219
from CFO worlds

833
00:23:23,220 --> 00:23:25,019
are as well, or at least should be

834
00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:26,729
like a good CFO really needs to know

835
00:23:26,730 --> 00:23:27,839
how to negotiate.

836
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,709
True.

837
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:30,479
I think it's yeah, as you say, it's

838
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,769
pure ops because if you've come from

839
00:23:31,770 --> 00:23:33,179
a sales background, you have it

840
00:23:33,180 --> 00:23:34,199
already.

841
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,039
CFO is an interesting one because I

842
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,249
found that not all CFOs have that.

843
00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:39,329
Maybe that would be a gap for other

844
00:23:39,330 --> 00:23:40,799
CFOs. I mean, because how else are

845
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,539
you going to get really good?

846
00:23:42,540 --> 00:23:44,369
Well, first of all, to stand

847
00:23:44,370 --> 00:23:46,199
your ground and make sure that

848
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,549
the deals that you're doing and that

849
00:23:47,550 --> 00:23:49,319
your sales team are doing are good

850
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,969
deals, Sydney, to understand and

851
00:23:50,970 --> 00:23:52,739
actually be in deals or have a team

852
00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:53,939
that are in deals.

853
00:23:53,940 --> 00:23:55,529
And then also when you're buying

854
00:23:55,530 --> 00:23:57,699
major contracts, having

855
00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:59,759
the CFO in as that final

856
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,739
bad cop to lower the price is just

857
00:24:01,740 --> 00:24:02,549
essential.

858
00:24:02,550 --> 00:24:03,599
I used to have a great guy that

859
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,609
worked for me. I called Alex, who

860
00:24:05,610 --> 00:24:07,109
was a very, very commercial finance

861
00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:08,459
person, and he would go and

862
00:24:08,460 --> 00:24:09,869
renegotiate things like payment

863
00:24:09,870 --> 00:24:11,099
terms and stuff, which from a

864
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:12,689
financial perspective is incredibly

865
00:24:12,690 --> 00:24:13,769
important.

866
00:24:13,770 --> 00:24:15,629
It's slightly tangential, but like

867
00:24:15,630 --> 00:24:17,459
you tend to have some who are

868
00:24:17,460 --> 00:24:19,349
more commercial and some who are

869
00:24:19,350 --> 00:24:21,389
more technical and they tend

870
00:24:21,390 --> 00:24:23,189
to be camps, right?

871
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:25,499
It's another little piece of opinion

872
00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:27,449
of mine is for scale

873
00:24:27,450 --> 00:24:28,679
up start ups and scale ups.

874
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,629
You need commercial finance

875
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:32,279
people and not technical finance

876
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,109
people. Yeah, because your actual

877
00:24:34,110 --> 00:24:36,089
technical is going to be quite low.

878
00:24:36,090 --> 00:24:37,049
Probably it's going to be quite

879
00:24:37,050 --> 00:24:38,279
straightforward versus the

880
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:39,479
commercial side of things, which

881
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,309
might be a lot more helpful and

882
00:24:41,310 --> 00:24:43,319
there's just no value add in.

883
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:44,309
If you get somebody who's just

884
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:46,049
straight technical because you need

885
00:24:46,050 --> 00:24:48,029
someone who can negotiate with fund

886
00:24:48,030 --> 00:24:49,919
fundraising, understand

887
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,259
the best ways of structuring

888
00:24:52,260 --> 00:24:53,639
those types of deals, somebody who

889
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,619
can work with your customers

890
00:24:55,620 --> 00:24:57,299
and structure deals well there and

891
00:24:57,300 --> 00:24:58,289
your suppliers.

892
00:24:58,290 --> 00:24:59,549
So anyhow, if anybody happens to be

893
00:24:59,550 --> 00:25:01,199
listening who's hiring a CFO or a

894
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,359
finance person, those are my $0.02.

895
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:05,309
And I would also say for the CEO,

896
00:25:05,310 --> 00:25:06,509
I feel like I'm constantly

897
00:25:06,510 --> 00:25:07,769
negotiating in different forms.

898
00:25:07,770 --> 00:25:09,749
And usually it's more complex

899
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:11,789
situations where the commission plan

900
00:25:11,790 --> 00:25:13,289
for the sales reps is broken for

901
00:25:13,290 --> 00:25:14,819
some reason, and the sales rep, the

902
00:25:14,820 --> 00:25:16,349
leader of the sales team has been

903
00:25:16,350 --> 00:25:17,639
caught out. They need to talk to

904
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,779
somebody about it in terms of what

905
00:25:18,780 --> 00:25:20,969
to do because person is really

906
00:25:20,970 --> 00:25:22,889
upset for whatever reason that VP

907
00:25:22,890 --> 00:25:23,699
of Sales needs to have a

908
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:25,439
conversation around what we need to

909
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,509
negotiate with with that person

910
00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:29,279
or, you know, other nonstandard

911
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,139
situations where a leadership team

912
00:25:31,140 --> 00:25:33,329
has also either contractual issues

913
00:25:33,330 --> 00:25:34,409
or something that's happening in

914
00:25:34,410 --> 00:25:36,509
terms of. They're winding down

915
00:25:36,510 --> 00:25:38,219
and the terms associated to that

916
00:25:38,220 --> 00:25:39,449
wind down and how to get the best

917
00:25:39,450 --> 00:25:40,409
out of that person. There's some

918
00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:41,789
level of negotiation that needs to

919
00:25:41,790 --> 00:25:43,799
occur. So I feel like for the CEO,

920
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,019
there's often this but nonstandard

921
00:25:46,020 --> 00:25:47,849
negotiations, spectrum of things and

922
00:25:47,850 --> 00:25:49,649
pop up all over the place where, you

923
00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:50,729
know, it may not be strictly like a

924
00:25:50,730 --> 00:25:52,199
supplier negotiation, but there's

925
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:53,909
definitely a lot of nonstandard

926
00:25:53,910 --> 00:25:55,289
negotiations that need to happen

927
00:25:55,290 --> 00:25:56,639
where we are involved to come up

928
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:57,539
with the best outcome for an

929
00:25:57,540 --> 00:25:59,429
individual or for a team.

930
00:25:59,430 --> 00:26:00,329
It's interesting because I think

931
00:26:00,330 --> 00:26:01,439
CEOs have the skills for

932
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:02,669
negotiation, but when you put the

933
00:26:02,670 --> 00:26:04,709
label negotiation on it,

934
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:05,939
we get a bit freaked out.

935
00:26:05,940 --> 00:26:08,219
So, that's salesy, that's external.

936
00:26:08,220 --> 00:26:10,289
That is an area,

937
00:26:10,290 --> 00:26:12,179
an agreement I'm not used to.

938
00:26:12,180 --> 00:26:14,489
Whereas if you think about the

939
00:26:14,490 --> 00:26:15,779
strengths that you mentioned, one of

940
00:26:15,780 --> 00:26:17,609
the first strengths was doing great

941
00:26:17,610 --> 00:26:19,259
stakeholder management, which is

942
00:26:19,260 --> 00:26:20,519
just negotiation.

943
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,109
Well, and even company comms, right?

944
00:26:22,110 --> 00:26:23,309
A lot of company comms is actually

945
00:26:23,310 --> 00:26:25,169
objection handling really.

946
00:26:25,170 --> 00:26:26,519
And so there's lots of kind of

947
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,229
pieces of it that really fit in the

948
00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:29,399
internal piece.

949
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,559
But maybe it's the external

950
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,419
exhibit like this is sort of not

951
00:26:33,420 --> 00:26:34,559
known today is a bit more

952
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:35,939
uncomfortable.

953
00:26:35,940 --> 00:26:37,799
So yes, that's an interesting one.

954
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,839
The other gap that Brandon mentioned

955
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,579
was resource allocation.

956
00:26:41,580 --> 00:26:43,319
And this came up quite strongly and

957
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,299
I have having been

958
00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:47,789
spoken to the CEOs about this one,

959
00:26:47,790 --> 00:26:50,009
I now realize why,

960
00:26:50,010 --> 00:26:51,149
because on the face of it, you're

961
00:26:51,150 --> 00:26:52,799
like, they should be really good at

962
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,449
that. And again, out of my

963
00:26:54,450 --> 00:26:56,879
experience, married Theirs was,

964
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,889
well, in these companies

965
00:26:58,890 --> 00:27:00,989
you're constantly having to rejig

966
00:27:00,990 --> 00:27:02,219
resource allocation.

967
00:27:02,220 --> 00:27:03,989
It doesn't just stay the same.

968
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:05,069
If you're scaling, you're like,

969
00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:06,299
okay, where do we need people?

970
00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:07,859
Or if you've got different parts of

971
00:27:07,860 --> 00:27:09,149
the business that are running some

972
00:27:09,150 --> 00:27:10,559
bits of working, some bits won't be

973
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:11,729
working. So you might need to

974
00:27:11,730 --> 00:27:13,169
rightsize certain bits of it at

975
00:27:13,170 --> 00:27:14,549
different times or change the

976
00:27:14,550 --> 00:27:16,439
structure in different places.

977
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,269
And I think they, they get the sense

978
00:27:18,270 --> 00:27:20,159
that they therefore are

979
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,199
always sort of

980
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,359
second guessing themselves,

981
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:25,859
Michaela, to do it potentially a

982
00:27:25,860 --> 00:27:27,389
little bit, but quarterly

983
00:27:27,390 --> 00:27:28,289
rightsizing.

984
00:27:28,290 --> 00:27:30,059
As for how I used to think about it,

985
00:27:30,060 --> 00:27:31,739
where every quarter I then kind of

986
00:27:31,740 --> 00:27:33,689
look at the organ and think right

987
00:27:33,690 --> 00:27:35,639
we good at the moment or we

988
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,769
got some weird bits happening

989
00:27:37,770 --> 00:27:39,089
in different places.

990
00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:40,179
We've got the right structures, we

991
00:27:40,180 --> 00:27:41,339
got the right people. If we got the

992
00:27:41,340 --> 00:27:43,469
right levels of this stuff

993
00:27:43,470 --> 00:27:44,729
because of this thing.

994
00:27:44,730 --> 00:27:47,009
But I think it's it is a challenge

995
00:27:47,010 --> 00:27:49,019
and it's knowing when

996
00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:50,249
you've got the right balance as

997
00:27:50,250 --> 00:27:51,989
well, especially if you think about

998
00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:53,879
where you're investing versus

999
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:54,719
where you're not.

1000
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,159
If you're trying to be profitable,

1001
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,359
that means, you know.

1002
00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:59,249
So I think it's quite tricky

1003
00:27:59,250 --> 00:28:01,529
area and RMB ambiguity

1004
00:28:01,530 --> 00:28:03,089
and they might be good at it but not

1005
00:28:03,090 --> 00:28:04,529
think they're good at it.

1006
00:28:04,530 --> 00:28:06,419
That's the other thing because it's

1007
00:28:06,420 --> 00:28:08,399
really hard and it's changing

1008
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,339
like it's a problem that never ends.

1009
00:28:11,340 --> 00:28:13,229
And so if you have to change, does

1010
00:28:13,230 --> 00:28:14,279
it mean that you got it wrong?

1011
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,509
It just means that the company has

1012
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:16,379
changed.

1013
00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:17,489
Yeah. And it kind of feels like

1014
00:28:17,490 --> 00:28:18,479
there's two aspects to it.

1015
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,159
Like what is the purely financial

1016
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,389
side of the financial modeling?

1017
00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:22,559
Because you're trying to model out

1018
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:23,609
the future of the company over the

1019
00:28:23,610 --> 00:28:25,199
next, you know, three, six, nine, 12

1020
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,339
months and what that looks like and

1021
00:28:26,340 --> 00:28:28,379
you're constantly iterating it based

1022
00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:30,479
on actual revenue and actual budget

1023
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:31,499
and these sorts of things, you're

1024
00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:32,999
thinking through how best to

1025
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,589
allocate funds for the future in

1026
00:28:34,590 --> 00:28:36,269
terms of hires or what have you.

1027
00:28:36,270 --> 00:28:37,949
So there's purely that side of it

1028
00:28:37,950 --> 00:28:39,149
that there's an entirely different

1029
00:28:39,150 --> 00:28:41,009
dynamic around the actual people in

1030
00:28:41,010 --> 00:28:42,509
the company. The skills that you

1031
00:28:42,510 --> 00:28:43,739
have, the capabilities that you have

1032
00:28:43,740 --> 00:28:44,639
or don't have.

1033
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:45,959
And it's much more really

1034
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,219
understanding, I guess, your

1035
00:28:47,220 --> 00:28:48,839
existing employee base in terms of

1036
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,009
what they're good at and what

1037
00:28:50,010 --> 00:28:50,999
they're capable of doing in the

1038
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,169
future type of thing.

1039
00:28:52,170 --> 00:28:53,399
But being able to combine those two

1040
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,169
things together and do it on this

1041
00:28:55,170 --> 00:28:56,639
iterative basis with the functional

1042
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,049
leaders I think we're at, that's

1043
00:28:58,050 --> 00:28:59,639
where it all comes together, where

1044
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,019
the CEO hopefully is connecting all

1045
00:29:01,020 --> 00:29:02,189
those dots to try to think that

1046
00:29:02,190 --> 00:29:03,419
through holistically for the

1047
00:29:03,420 --> 00:29:05,189
company, working with whatever

1048
00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:06,029
functional leader that they're

1049
00:29:06,030 --> 00:29:07,049
working with.

1050
00:29:07,050 --> 00:29:09,299
And then I think the newest element

1051
00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:10,949
to throw into that, which might also

1052
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:12,899
make it is I'm struggling with

1053
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:14,789
the moment is where does

1054
00:29:14,790 --> 00:29:16,649
Jenny fit in and therefore

1055
00:29:16,650 --> 00:29:19,349
where your allocation of resource

1056
00:29:19,350 --> 00:29:21,329
of finding new skills,

1057
00:29:21,330 --> 00:29:23,279
investing in technology and

1058
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,139
what can and cannot actually be

1059
00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:26,549
done more efficiently.

1060
00:29:26,550 --> 00:29:28,859
With Jenny, it's like a new resource

1061
00:29:28,860 --> 00:29:30,149
to try and allocate.

1062
00:29:30,150 --> 00:29:31,739
When I even found that I'm a

1063
00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:33,119
fractional CEO, a very small

1064
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,039
business now, we still have

1065
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,629
the same challenges, just on a much

1066
00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:37,439
smaller scale.

1067
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:38,879
It's like we'll change things and do

1068
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,829
things and then like about a month

1069
00:29:40,830 --> 00:29:41,819
later we'll be like.

1070
00:29:41,820 --> 00:29:42,839
So the right thing to do

1071
00:29:43,860 --> 00:29:45,809
or have we really so

1072
00:29:45,810 --> 00:29:47,249
set ourselves up for success here?

1073
00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:48,989
And then think about it again, so

1074
00:29:48,990 --> 00:29:50,729
much so that as soon as I heard this

1075
00:29:50,730 --> 00:29:52,379
from the CEOs in the survey, I was

1076
00:29:52,380 --> 00:29:54,179
like, Yeah, this sounds just because

1077
00:29:54,180 --> 00:29:55,259
it just keeps moving.

1078
00:29:55,260 --> 00:29:56,669
You can't ever say you've done it.

1079
00:29:56,670 --> 00:29:58,139
And then would you recommend on some

1080
00:29:58,140 --> 00:30:00,029
cadence or basis thinking through

1081
00:30:00,030 --> 00:30:00,839
it quite specifically?

1082
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:01,979
Because generally speaking, as a

1083
00:30:01,980 --> 00:30:03,869
CEO, I think about it when I need

1084
00:30:03,870 --> 00:30:05,729
to think about it as opposed to

1085
00:30:05,730 --> 00:30:07,259
setting some kind of time slot or

1086
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:08,819
something like that. But what do you

1087
00:30:08,820 --> 00:30:09,749
make of that?

1088
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:11,999
I would if the company is scaling,

1089
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,289
definitely. And that's what the

1090
00:30:13,290 --> 00:30:14,909
situation I found myself in, which

1091
00:30:14,910 --> 00:30:16,889
was like, I feel like I am the only

1092
00:30:16,890 --> 00:30:18,959
person potentially who

1093
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,669
is thinking about this in the

1094
00:30:20,670 --> 00:30:22,859
holistic round in the same way,

1095
00:30:22,860 --> 00:30:24,869
and the CEOs of making deals

1096
00:30:24,870 --> 00:30:26,159
and doing other things and

1097
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:27,299
developing the company in different

1098
00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:28,709
ways. So it's like, right, this has

1099
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:30,329
to be me. So I'm going to think

1100
00:30:30,330 --> 00:30:31,739
about I'm going to just deliberately

1101
00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:33,209
time box it, just keep thinking

1102
00:30:33,210 --> 00:30:34,759
about it and in different.

1103
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:35,539
Pieces.

1104
00:30:35,540 --> 00:30:37,279
So, I mean, it worked for me, put it

1105
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:38,839
that way. That worked well in the

1106
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,309
situation I was in.

1107
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:42,289
And then quarterly works because

1108
00:30:42,290 --> 00:30:43,609
that's when you're budgeting or

1109
00:30:43,610 --> 00:30:45,379
you're trying to decide like, what's

1110
00:30:45,380 --> 00:30:46,519
the hiring plan for the next

1111
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,589
quarter? So it's an opportunity to

1112
00:30:48,590 --> 00:30:50,419
pause and make sure that the plan

1113
00:30:50,420 --> 00:30:51,469
from the last quarter is still

1114
00:30:51,470 --> 00:30:52,519
necessary.

1115
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,529
Even in scaling territory,

1116
00:30:54,530 --> 00:30:56,629
it feels like you hold

1117
00:30:56,630 --> 00:30:57,949
your nerve for a bit just to make

1118
00:30:57,950 --> 00:30:59,809
sure everybody gets it and then you

1119
00:30:59,810 --> 00:31:01,459
so it kind of is a step to growth

1120
00:31:01,460 --> 00:31:03,499
path versus can't just keep adding

1121
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:04,339
more and more and more and more

1122
00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:05,569
people and expecting that's going to

1123
00:31:05,570 --> 00:31:06,349
be efficiency.

1124
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:08,329
That also works well in a quarterly

1125
00:31:08,330 --> 00:31:09,499
cadence.

1126
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:10,909
Yeah, it's an interesting one, that

1127
00:31:10,910 --> 00:31:11,869
one.

1128
00:31:11,870 --> 00:31:13,519
So this is something that we're

1129
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,419
trying to do something about at the

1130
00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:16,669
moment, but it's got two bits to it.

1131
00:31:16,670 --> 00:31:18,859
Understanding financial reports

1132
00:31:18,860 --> 00:31:20,689
was one side of it and

1133
00:31:20,690 --> 00:31:21,469
the other side of it.

1134
00:31:21,470 --> 00:31:23,179
And this nuance, this whole talk

1135
00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:24,229
about, okay, of course it's always

1136
00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:25,230
nuanced,

1137
00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:28,339
understanding business metrics

1138
00:31:28,340 --> 00:31:30,769
in businesses that you don't work in

1139
00:31:30,770 --> 00:31:32,779
which different business models,

1140
00:31:32,780 --> 00:31:34,579
but the metrics that drive success

1141
00:31:34,580 --> 00:31:36,499
in different business models,

1142
00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:38,429
what we talk about first metrics

1143
00:31:38,430 --> 00:31:39,829
or financials.

1144
00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:41,419
Let's go financials.

1145
00:31:41,420 --> 00:31:43,309
Okay. So the financials on the

1146
00:31:43,310 --> 00:31:44,689
financials one is interesting,

1147
00:31:44,690 --> 00:31:46,819
right? So I believe

1148
00:31:46,820 --> 00:31:48,289
that, again, from talking to the

1149
00:31:48,290 --> 00:31:50,119
folks at the events and

1150
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,099
afterwards, it's not that they don't

1151
00:31:52,100 --> 00:31:54,649
understand financials personally,

1152
00:31:54,650 --> 00:31:56,269
as in and I had this with a

1153
00:31:56,270 --> 00:31:57,649
wonderful lady who's a client of

1154
00:31:57,650 --> 00:31:59,659
mine who in her own health was like,

1155
00:31:59,660 --> 00:32:01,189
This isn't a strength of mine,

1156
00:32:01,190 --> 00:32:02,599
actually. Then we went through the

1157
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,519
financials, and the observations she

1158
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,469
made about it were brilliant.

1159
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:07,849
She's very astute.

1160
00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:09,739
It's all good. However,

1161
00:32:09,740 --> 00:32:11,869
if you then went one layer

1162
00:32:11,870 --> 00:32:15,019
deeper than that and you asked

1163
00:32:15,020 --> 00:32:17,269
her or them off the back

1164
00:32:17,270 --> 00:32:19,009
of a balance sheet or something like

1165
00:32:19,010 --> 00:32:20,959
that, more complex

1166
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,399
questions around financial

1167
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:23,629
management.

1168
00:32:23,630 --> 00:32:25,729
No, it wouldn't happen.

1169
00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:27,559
And so I think that's where this

1170
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,419
comes in. It's like to a point

1171
00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:31,039
where you could make strategic

1172
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,109
business based decisions off

1173
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:34,939
the back of reading

1174
00:32:34,940 --> 00:32:37,159
your balance sheet, for example.

1175
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,989
That's where this I think

1176
00:32:38,990 --> 00:32:40,909
falls down versus

1177
00:32:40,910 --> 00:32:42,859
being able to read financial data.

1178
00:32:42,860 --> 00:32:44,119
And if you think in certain board

1179
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,099
scenarios where you've

1180
00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:47,479
more often than not you've got more

1181
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,339
financially literate folks,

1182
00:32:49,340 --> 00:32:51,289
possibly less operationally literate

1183
00:32:51,290 --> 00:32:53,509
at times, then they're likely

1184
00:32:53,510 --> 00:32:55,579
to have really in-depth knowledge

1185
00:32:55,580 --> 00:32:57,529
of company valuation and how

1186
00:32:57,530 --> 00:32:59,509
you do it, what you're looking for

1187
00:32:59,510 --> 00:33:01,399
or funding mechanisms or

1188
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,619
any of these things that Sarah

1189
00:33:03,620 --> 00:33:05,689
might not they may not

1190
00:33:05,690 --> 00:33:07,579
have as much of a view or opinion

1191
00:33:07,580 --> 00:33:09,019
on that dependent on their knowledge

1192
00:33:09,020 --> 00:33:10,759
of what they've been exposed to.

1193
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:11,719
I feel like in terms of the

1194
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,519
financial instruments, it's always

1195
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:14,389
there's always a new one.

1196
00:33:14,390 --> 00:33:16,609
There's always like currently

1197
00:33:16,610 --> 00:33:17,959
every person I speak to, I guess

1198
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,369
because of the avoidance of down

1199
00:33:19,370 --> 00:33:21,529
rounds, are talking about Collins

1200
00:33:21,530 --> 00:33:22,939
convertible, low notes.

1201
00:33:22,940 --> 00:33:24,319
And like five yeadours ago nobody

1202
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:25,339
talked about it.

1203
00:33:25,340 --> 00:33:27,079
And now, like every single time I go

1204
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,059
to a meeting, I talk to somebody

1205
00:33:29,060 --> 00:33:30,589
and they're like, we're negotiating

1206
00:33:30,590 --> 00:33:32,149
a clean and we all just know about

1207
00:33:32,150 --> 00:33:33,799
it. Now, every time I go to drinks,

1208
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,629
somebody is negotiating one and

1209
00:33:35,630 --> 00:33:37,099
wants to know about something.

1210
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:38,719
But anyhow, I do agree that you

1211
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,269
learn it as you need it.

1212
00:33:41,270 --> 00:33:43,129
And we're not

1213
00:33:43,130 --> 00:33:44,989
CFOs unless we were CFOs to

1214
00:33:44,990 --> 00:33:46,999
begin with, which is

1215
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,099
for me, it's not necessarily a skill

1216
00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:51,229
that I would go out and desperately

1217
00:33:51,230 --> 00:33:53,119
try and improve

1218
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,159
versus just having a good CFO

1219
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,619
or the ability to Google things.

1220
00:33:57,620 --> 00:33:59,299
I think it's important to know what

1221
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:00,769
your strengths are and where you

1222
00:34:00,770 --> 00:34:02,659
need to know enough and to

1223
00:34:02,660 --> 00:34:04,039
learn what you need to learn when

1224
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,419
you need to know it rather than like

1225
00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:07,399
go out and just decide to learn

1226
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,499
it for no particular reason.

1227
00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:10,698
When you're in a business, that's

1228
00:34:10,699 --> 00:34:12,439
not going to be funding.

1229
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:13,879
The challenge here, I think, is that

1230
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,079
there's a level of proficiency

1231
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:16,399
that's expected.

1232
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,009
And so how do you get to that

1233
00:34:19,010 --> 00:34:21,319
without then massively overdoing

1234
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,629
it? I even think if I look back,

1235
00:34:23,630 --> 00:34:25,609
I was a hybrid CIO, CFO, because

1236
00:34:25,610 --> 00:34:27,529
I qualified in my evenings from just

1237
00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:29,448
accounting because I'd sit

1238
00:34:29,449 --> 00:34:30,738
in the board meeting sometimes and

1239
00:34:30,739 --> 00:34:31,908
I'd be like, I know what they're

1240
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:32,839
talking about.

1241
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,549
This financial I'm not Rachel is

1242
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:35,718
like.

1243
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,009
I would say this, though, I kind of

1244
00:34:37,010 --> 00:34:38,959
feel like to Bethany's point, I

1245
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,819
feel like I've picked up finance

1246
00:34:40,820 --> 00:34:42,198
where I've needed to understand it

1247
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,059
to help run the business, basically.

1248
00:34:44,060 --> 00:34:45,529
So when I think about my financial

1249
00:34:45,530 --> 00:34:47,448
acumen, a lot of it revolves around

1250
00:34:47,449 --> 00:34:49,939
financial forecast, not the PNL

1251
00:34:49,940 --> 00:34:51,799
staff essentially to help run

1252
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,029
the business effectively and think

1253
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:55,129
through how we spend money and

1254
00:34:55,130 --> 00:34:56,089
what the revenue creation is going

1255
00:34:56,090 --> 00:34:57,319
to look like and making sure that

1256
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:58,939
burn rates appropriate.

1257
00:34:58,940 --> 00:35:00,409
Anything that revolves around that,

1258
00:35:00,410 --> 00:35:01,429
I'm very interested in.

1259
00:35:01,430 --> 00:35:02,809
And to your point, Bethany, you

1260
00:35:02,810 --> 00:35:04,489
know, I've Googled, you know, ad

1261
00:35:04,490 --> 00:35:05,869
nauseum, I've looked at all sorts of

1262
00:35:05,870 --> 00:35:07,459
videos and stuff like that.

1263
00:35:07,460 --> 00:35:08,689
At this point in my life and career,

1264
00:35:08,690 --> 00:35:10,429
I can very much pair with a finance

1265
00:35:10,430 --> 00:35:12,229
person where collectively we can

1266
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:13,549
work together, where there are

1267
00:35:13,550 --> 00:35:14,989
excellent. I'm modeling, I'm

1268
00:35:14,990 --> 00:35:16,219
excellent at understanding the

1269
00:35:16,220 --> 00:35:17,569
business and what happens in the

1270
00:35:17,570 --> 00:35:18,349
business itself.

1271
00:35:18,350 --> 00:35:19,459
And you combine those two things

1272
00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:21,199
together, then boom, you have like

1273
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:22,189
models that actually really

1274
00:35:22,190 --> 00:35:23,269
represent the business and you can

1275
00:35:23,270 --> 00:35:24,889
actually do some proper modeling to,

1276
00:35:24,890 --> 00:35:26,239
to figure out how to spend money and

1277
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:27,859
how to ensure that you're ramping in

1278
00:35:27,860 --> 00:35:29,389
a sensible way.

1279
00:35:29,390 --> 00:35:30,739
And then if you talk about the board

1280
00:35:30,740 --> 00:35:32,449
level conversations, because those

1281
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:33,589
are different to the modeling that

1282
00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:34,449
Brandon's talked about.

1283
00:35:34,450 --> 00:35:36,609
It's much more fundraising strategy,

1284
00:35:36,610 --> 00:35:38,589
corporate debt, different

1285
00:35:38,590 --> 00:35:40,809
types of instruments

1286
00:35:40,810 --> 00:35:42,849
where like balance sheet

1287
00:35:42,850 --> 00:35:44,559
matters and what are you

1288
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,539
capitalizing and what are you,

1289
00:35:46,540 --> 00:35:48,609
you know, kind of like the art

1290
00:35:48,610 --> 00:35:50,559
of working on your financials

1291
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,269
so that you look the right way

1292
00:35:52,270 --> 00:35:54,399
depending on what your valuation

1293
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,229
like. Is it a revenue based

1294
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:57,999
valuation? Is an EBITDA based

1295
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,079
valuation?

1296
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:00,759
How do you make it look the way it

1297
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,649
needs to or is close to it as you

1298
00:36:02,650 --> 00:36:04,539
can? But I guess for me,

1299
00:36:04,540 --> 00:36:05,949
all of that's come through
experience,

1300
00:36:05,950 --> 00:36:07,059
through conversations.

1301
00:36:07,060 --> 00:36:09,039
And I'm very much been a just

1302
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,649
in time learner and also

1303
00:36:11,650 --> 00:36:13,569
on the boards that I sit on, my

1304
00:36:13,570 --> 00:36:16,539
pitch is I'm the operator.

1305
00:36:16,540 --> 00:36:18,729
I am like the friend of the CEO.

1306
00:36:18,730 --> 00:36:20,949
I can understand what's

1307
00:36:20,950 --> 00:36:22,899
hard in your life, but I've

1308
00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:24,849
also done so many fundraising

1309
00:36:24,850 --> 00:36:26,319
rounds. I've hung out with

1310
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,089
investors. I understand how they

1311
00:36:28,090 --> 00:36:29,679
think. I know what an investment

1312
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,509
banker does, that I can help

1313
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:34,209
translate on both sides.

1314
00:36:34,210 --> 00:36:36,189
And what I am not going

1315
00:36:36,190 --> 00:36:37,779
to do is help with your fundraising

1316
00:36:37,780 --> 00:36:39,849
strategy and conversely,

1317
00:36:39,850 --> 00:36:41,619
your board members, who have always

1318
00:36:41,620 --> 00:36:43,419
been investment bankers, should not

1319
00:36:43,420 --> 00:36:45,399
be trying to help you

1320
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,079
on your go to market strategy.

1321
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:48,219
You're like, if we understand our

1322
00:36:48,220 --> 00:36:50,019
lanes and we can talk a little bit

1323
00:36:50,020 --> 00:36:51,939
across them and know enough that

1324
00:36:51,940 --> 00:36:53,409
if something sounds really wonky, we

1325
00:36:53,410 --> 00:36:54,819
can intercept.

1326
00:36:54,820 --> 00:36:56,889
But I think it's very valuable

1327
00:36:56,890 --> 00:36:58,719
in board conversations for people

1328
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,039
to understand where your level of

1329
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,839
expertise is and why you're sitting

1330
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:02,679
at the table.

1331
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,149
And I'm not going to try and pretend

1332
00:37:04,150 --> 00:37:06,369
that I'm a financial expert

1333
00:37:06,370 --> 00:37:07,569
and I'm going to understand the

1334
00:37:07,570 --> 00:37:09,609
investment strategy in the way

1335
00:37:09,610 --> 00:37:11,559
that these guys who do it all day

1336
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,639
long and for the most part, our

1337
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,529
guys, what they negotiate, how

1338
00:37:14,530 --> 00:37:15,909
they think about it, all the ins and

1339
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:17,979
outs, it's fascinating to learn.

1340
00:37:17,980 --> 00:37:18,959
No, I'm with you.

1341
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,439
And I think to tie your points

1342
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,359
together 100% and I think this is

1343
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,399
a level of proficiency that even

1344
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:25,719
a level proficiency that gives you

1345
00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:27,099
the just gives you the confidence to

1346
00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:28,419
be in the room when it's being

1347
00:37:28,420 --> 00:37:29,529
spoken about.

1348
00:37:29,530 --> 00:37:30,669
I totally agree on the forward

1349
00:37:30,670 --> 00:37:32,019
facing piece. And I think that's why

1350
00:37:32,020 --> 00:37:33,399
the balance sheet side of it is

1351
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:34,719
interesting because that's more of

1352
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:36,369
the forward facing.

1353
00:37:36,370 --> 00:37:37,629
We know what will we be doing with

1354
00:37:37,630 --> 00:37:39,069
the business, how do we leverage our

1355
00:37:39,070 --> 00:37:40,239
assets, all of that sort of thing.

1356
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:41,649
And that's the bit that really

1357
00:37:41,650 --> 00:37:43,139
missing.

1358
00:37:43,140 --> 00:37:44,259
We talk about the business metrics

1359
00:37:44,260 --> 00:37:45,309
side.

1360
00:37:45,310 --> 00:37:46,419
I'm curious on that one.

1361
00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:47,199
Yeah.

1362
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,669
So one woman's opinion, I just may

1363
00:37:48,670 --> 00:37:50,679
as well like to cloak

1364
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,259
myself, say one woman's opinion

1365
00:37:53,260 --> 00:37:55,299
since I sort of

1366
00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:57,219
understood some different business

1367
00:37:57,220 --> 00:37:59,079
models. I feel like I then

1368
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:00,519
got more of an appreciation for the

1369
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,529
business models I worked in,

1370
00:38:02,530 --> 00:38:04,329
whereas I worked in subscription

1371
00:38:04,330 --> 00:38:05,769
business models for a really long

1372
00:38:05,770 --> 00:38:07,689
time. Right? So I know subscription

1373
00:38:07,690 --> 00:38:09,189
business models like the back of my

1374
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:11,169
hand. You could ask me anything

1375
00:38:11,170 --> 00:38:12,639
pretty much maybe.

1376
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,529
And I sort of I'd have a view

1377
00:38:14,530 --> 00:38:15,369
of whether it's right or wrong.

1378
00:38:15,370 --> 00:38:17,059
I have you and then I start learning

1379
00:38:17,060 --> 00:38:18,369
about other ones and was like, Hey,

1380
00:38:18,370 --> 00:38:19,899
that's interesting because if I'd

1381
00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:21,399
have known that you could apply some

1382
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:22,779
of that to that.

1383
00:38:22,780 --> 00:38:24,789
And actually just knowing one thing

1384
00:38:24,790 --> 00:38:26,499
is all very well, but you then are

1385
00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:28,359
in a complete vacuum and

1386
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,279
it's only after then, it's not

1387
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,109
like I've been seeing

1388
00:38:32,110 --> 00:38:33,309
all the different business models

1389
00:38:33,310 --> 00:38:34,689
out there, but just enough that I

1390
00:38:34,690 --> 00:38:36,219
can then sort of have a bit of

1391
00:38:36,220 --> 00:38:38,589
objective perspective.

1392
00:38:38,590 --> 00:38:40,479
And yet you tend to find that

1393
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,309
actually because people stay in

1394
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:44,349
certain industries,

1395
00:38:44,350 --> 00:38:46,419
they may like me, just be

1396
00:38:46,420 --> 00:38:48,759
one, they may have one that's

1397
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,379
they know inside and out, and then

1398
00:38:50,380 --> 00:38:51,549
you throw something else at them and

1399
00:38:51,550 --> 00:38:53,919
they have no idea how it works.

1400
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,989
So it's the informing of like one

1401
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:57,549
business model against another and

1402
00:38:57,550 --> 00:38:58,869
actually sort of the importance of

1403
00:38:58,870 --> 00:38:59,979
different metrics and different

1404
00:38:59,980 --> 00:39:00,999
places.

1405
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,169
And even what you can beg, borrow

1406
00:39:02,170 --> 00:39:03,459
and steal.

1407
00:39:03,460 --> 00:39:04,899
It's interesting because I have this

1408
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:06,669
emotional reaction of like, I'm in

1409
00:39:06,670 --> 00:39:08,529
my space, I have my metrics,

1410
00:39:08,530 --> 00:39:09,579
nothing else matters.

1411
00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:10,629
And because I haven't looked, I

1412
00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:12,279
don't know if I think it would be

1413
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:13,509
interesting. I think it's a fair

1414
00:39:13,510 --> 00:39:15,399
challenge. And again, for me,

1415
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,709
it goes back to Jenny

1416
00:39:17,710 --> 00:39:19,119
has captured my imagination.

1417
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,709
What are any of our worlds going to

1418
00:39:20,710 --> 00:39:22,359
look like in five years, let alone

1419
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:23,529
ten years time?

1420
00:39:23,530 --> 00:39:24,939
What are our new business models

1421
00:39:24,940 --> 00:39:25,899
going to be?

1422
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:27,939
So I can get the idea of going

1423
00:39:27,940 --> 00:39:29,949
out and learning different ones now

1424
00:39:29,950 --> 00:39:31,839
just to realize that there is

1425
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,269
many options as there are

1426
00:39:34,270 --> 00:39:36,039
to help open my mind to what the

1427
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:36,819
future might be.

1428
00:39:36,820 --> 00:39:38,889
Rather than beg, borrow and steal

1429
00:39:38,890 --> 00:39:40,329
for what today looks like.

1430
00:39:40,330 --> 00:39:42,009
Because I really I'm trying to see

1431
00:39:42,010 --> 00:39:43,539
how are all of our businesses, what

1432
00:39:43,540 --> 00:39:45,399
are our lives going to be like

1433
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:46,749
in five years?

1434
00:39:46,750 --> 00:39:48,369
Yeah. And I would almost double down

1435
00:39:48,370 --> 00:39:49,239
on what you said, if any, because I

1436
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:50,769
kind of feel like the more you

1437
00:39:50,770 --> 00:39:52,329
understand other types of businesses

1438
00:39:52,330 --> 00:39:53,799
and how they operate from a business

1439
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:54,759
model point of view and their

1440
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,049
pricing and packaging and that sort

1441
00:39:56,050 --> 00:39:57,999
of thing, it is helps inform

1442
00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,589
how you think about your business

1443
00:39:59,590 --> 00:40:00,819
and your context as to what's

1444
00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:02,889
happening, because oftentimes

1445
00:40:02,890 --> 00:40:03,999
things will come up or things will

1446
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:04,959
change, right?

1447
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,129
So suddenly we're going from

1448
00:40:06,130 --> 00:40:07,899
enterprise selling into product like

1449
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:09,099
growth and you're like, okay, well

1450
00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:10,569
what does that mean?

1451
00:40:10,570 --> 00:40:12,189
So, so product like growth.

1452
00:40:12,190 --> 00:40:13,479
I found I was stealing bits from my

1453
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,849
past to think through the PLG

1454
00:40:15,850 --> 00:40:17,319
side of things and product line

1455
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:18,549
sales and so on.

1456
00:40:18,550 --> 00:40:19,359
It's an interesting one.

1457
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:20,919
And even if I think about mine,

1458
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:22,809
Candy, so my Kelly was of course

1459
00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:24,819
subscription, but we then went

1460
00:40:24,820 --> 00:40:26,649
into licensing

1461
00:40:26,650 --> 00:40:28,659
and licensing royalty went

1462
00:40:28,660 --> 00:40:31,239
into music music royalties

1463
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:33,759
every time we went into a new piece.

1464
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:34,549
No idea. I was.

1465
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:36,349
Ooh, sounds interesting.

1466
00:40:36,350 --> 00:40:37,699
I have to go figure out how that

1467
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:38,689
works then.

1468
00:40:38,690 --> 00:40:40,069
But then the more I got into it, the

1469
00:40:40,070 --> 00:40:41,239
more I was like, Gosh, this is

1470
00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:43,189
really fascinating because depending

1471
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:44,779
on the assets that you create, the

1472
00:40:44,780 --> 00:40:46,519
value you create, you can monetize

1473
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,169
it in many different ways, but you

1474
00:40:48,170 --> 00:40:50,239
may get so fixed in one space

1475
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:51,979
that you can't actually see that

1476
00:40:51,980 --> 00:40:53,339
there's opportunity.

1477
00:40:53,340 --> 00:40:54,649
You know, I mean, there are

1478
00:40:54,650 --> 00:40:56,509
multitude of ways to

1479
00:40:56,510 --> 00:40:57,799
create even more value for the

1480
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,779
business from this thing,

1481
00:40:59,780 --> 00:41:00,979
this piece value asset we've

1482
00:41:00,980 --> 00:41:01,819
created.

1483
00:41:01,820 --> 00:41:03,499
And yet it depends if I can see it

1484
00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:04,879
or not, if it's even in my

1485
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:06,859
peripheral vision

1486
00:41:06,860 --> 00:41:07,849
and it does come back to you,

1487
00:41:07,850 --> 00:41:09,139
There's another gap on here, by the

1488
00:41:09,140 --> 00:41:11,509
way, that's around future facing

1489
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:12,949
projects and opportunities for

1490
00:41:12,950 --> 00:41:14,179
businesses.

1491
00:41:14,180 --> 00:41:15,679
And again, I wonder if this is

1492
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:16,909
because normally it's seen as the

1493
00:41:16,910 --> 00:41:19,159
purview of the CEO.

1494
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:20,839
No, no. This shows the development

1495
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,879
of the business is down to you.

1496
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,889
But actually, I

1497
00:41:24,890 --> 00:41:26,029
think it's one of the most

1498
00:41:26,030 --> 00:41:27,079
interesting bits.

1499
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,149
So I always loved being part of that

1500
00:41:29,150 --> 00:41:30,289
as a CEO.

1501
00:41:30,290 --> 00:41:32,119
And so developing knowledge

1502
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:33,379
in that area. But interesting that

1503
00:41:33,380 --> 00:41:34,519
it's a gap.

1504
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,199
A big gap as well.

1505
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,089
The gap is future.

1506
00:41:38,090 --> 00:41:39,949
So defining future based

1507
00:41:39,950 --> 00:41:41,509
opportunities for business, whether

1508
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:43,549
it be, I think, sweating

1509
00:41:43,550 --> 00:41:46,099
current assets in a different way

1510
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:47,929
or M&A,

1511
00:41:47,930 --> 00:41:50,089
corporate development ways

1512
00:41:50,090 --> 00:41:52,009
to grow a business that may be

1513
00:41:52,010 --> 00:41:53,899
slightly outside of your

1514
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:55,819
kind of experience, set

1515
00:41:55,820 --> 00:41:56,959
Some of these gaps I think are just

1516
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,519
like a lack of opportunity rather

1517
00:41:58,520 --> 00:41:59,779
than something that you need to go

1518
00:41:59,780 --> 00:42:00,619
out immediately.

1519
00:42:00,620 --> 00:42:02,389
Like I guess I'm just thinking it's

1520
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:04,399
a just in time learning and

1521
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,809
you figure it out.

1522
00:42:05,810 --> 00:42:07,279
You need to.

1523
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:08,479
I think there's like a step down

1524
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,729
situation where you have

1525
00:42:10,730 --> 00:42:12,499
the same product repackaged,

1526
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:13,429
repurposed for a different

1527
00:42:13,430 --> 00:42:14,359
marketplace.

1528
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:15,799
Somebody needs to figure out how to

1529
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,239
sell it into that new space and not

1530
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:18,469
sell it in this space where we

1531
00:42:18,470 --> 00:42:19,759
structure our program to go into

1532
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,409
that new space whereby you're

1533
00:42:21,410 --> 00:42:22,609
pulling the assets of the company in

1534
00:42:22,610 --> 00:42:24,559
a different direction and how you

1535
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,659
operationally pull that together,

1536
00:42:26,660 --> 00:42:28,399
programmatically set it in motion

1537
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:29,689
and get the resources behind it to

1538
00:42:29,690 --> 00:42:32,119
make it happen without distracting

1539
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:33,709
the company in a way that is not

1540
00:42:33,710 --> 00:42:34,819
helpful, basically.

1541
00:42:34,820 --> 00:42:35,839
There is definitely an art and a

1542
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,069
science to that, and I think the

1543
00:42:37,070 --> 00:42:38,839
operator having space and capacity

1544
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,729
to be able to focus on things like

1545
00:42:40,730 --> 00:42:41,599
that is something is really

1546
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:42,379
important.

1547
00:42:42,380 --> 00:42:43,169
Absolutely.

1548
00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:44,389
Well, it's interesting and it always

1549
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:45,859
brings me back to this.

1550
00:42:45,860 --> 00:42:47,389
And again, so tangible example, when

1551
00:42:47,390 --> 00:42:49,219
I was at mind, Candy, we created a

1552
00:42:49,220 --> 00:42:51,769
secondary product for children,

1553
00:42:51,770 --> 00:42:53,779
which was a creative space

1554
00:42:53,780 --> 00:42:55,609
that they could be creative in

1555
00:42:55,610 --> 00:42:57,709
and sort of a community social

1556
00:42:57,710 --> 00:42:59,149
network type of thing.

1557
00:42:59,150 --> 00:43:01,009
And because we then

1558
00:43:01,010 --> 00:43:02,269
got to a point where we didn't feel

1559
00:43:02,270 --> 00:43:04,009
like we the right people to run it,

1560
00:43:04,010 --> 00:43:06,049
it got divested, we sold it to

1561
00:43:06,050 --> 00:43:07,879
Super Awesome, who's clever

1562
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,499
because we sold it to them, but with

1563
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:11,359
a kickback that then meant that

1564
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,339
we then could keep

1565
00:43:13,340 --> 00:43:15,079
cash coming in from it as they

1566
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:16,339
monetized and put it through their

1567
00:43:16,340 --> 00:43:18,049
advertising channels and really sort

1568
00:43:18,050 --> 00:43:19,429
of boosted its revenue.

1569
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:20,959
So the more they then did that, the

1570
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,939
more money. We then got back

1571
00:43:22,940 --> 00:43:23,929
for a period of time, which helped

1572
00:43:23,930 --> 00:43:25,519
the business to sort of stabilize

1573
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,199
itself over time.

1574
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:28,519
I would have thought that not at the

1575
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:29,520
time.

1576
00:43:30,140 --> 00:43:31,579
I was like, Well, and of course my

1577
00:43:31,580 --> 00:43:33,679
clever, clever buy was a bit like,

1578
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,389
That's really good.

1579
00:43:35,390 --> 00:43:37,429
That's just such a good thing to do.

1580
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:39,619
There's something about that skill

1581
00:43:39,620 --> 00:43:42,169
set around spotting opportunities.

1582
00:43:42,170 --> 00:43:43,159
I don't have it, by the way.

1583
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:44,329
That's not my natural mode of

1584
00:43:44,330 --> 00:43:45,829
operation at all.

1585
00:43:45,830 --> 00:43:47,239
If we think about sort of CMO as

1586
00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:48,949
being a true partner to the CEO

1587
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:50,659
founder, and this is where I got

1588
00:43:50,660 --> 00:43:51,799
involved in this because I used to

1589
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,209
then love having conversations with

1590
00:43:53,210 --> 00:43:54,649
them about it, or I was like, this,

1591
00:43:54,650 --> 00:43:55,909
I didn't know anything about This is

1592
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:57,679
really interesting and stuff that

1593
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:58,669
they would then tell me and I'd be

1594
00:43:58,670 --> 00:44:00,409
like, I wouldn't even have noticed

1595
00:44:00,410 --> 00:44:02,029
that. Wouldn't even if that wouldn't

1596
00:44:02,030 --> 00:44:03,739
have come into my brain.

1597
00:44:03,740 --> 00:44:05,509
Different way of thinking.

1598
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:07,999
So I wonder if it's that sage

1599
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,099
or trusted advisor,

1600
00:44:10,100 --> 00:44:12,289
CEO, CMO partnership thing.

1601
00:44:12,290 --> 00:44:14,779
Having a bit of kind of that

1602
00:44:14,780 --> 00:44:16,609
way of thinking is sometimes

1603
00:44:16,610 --> 00:44:17,629
helpful.

1604
00:44:17,630 --> 00:44:19,489
I think it's also entrepreneurs are

1605
00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:21,559
just rule breakers

1606
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,539
or not even a rule, not

1607
00:44:23,540 --> 00:44:25,099
series. I don't even know if they're

1608
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:26,100
breaking rules.

1609
00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:28,410
It's just like,

1610
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:31,129
yeah, there are no boundaries,

1611
00:44:31,130 --> 00:44:32,059
nothing.

1612
00:44:32,060 --> 00:44:34,069
And CEOs are

1613
00:44:34,070 --> 00:44:36,319
quite often rule creators,

1614
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,899
enforcers and followers.

1615
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:40,639
And therefore our brains are not

1616
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,769
always necessarily going for

1617
00:44:42,770 --> 00:44:45,169
like infinite possibilities

1618
00:44:45,170 --> 00:44:46,999
where as entrepreneurs

1619
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,919
tend to and everything

1620
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:50,779
has a plus and

1621
00:44:50,780 --> 00:44:52,309
like a dark side and a light side.

1622
00:44:52,310 --> 00:44:54,199
And so the light side

1623
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:55,129
is what you're talking about with a

1624
00:44:55,130 --> 00:44:56,029
lovely kick back.

1625
00:44:56,030 --> 00:44:57,889
And then the dark side are just

1626
00:44:57,890 --> 00:45:00,499
deals that are horrible

1627
00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:02,089
and you never actually see any money

1628
00:45:02,090 --> 00:45:04,519
from or possibly

1629
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,489
illegal, you know?

1630
00:45:06,490 --> 00:45:08,299
It's like it's always true, isn't

1631
00:45:08,300 --> 00:45:09,079
it?

1632
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:10,799
But I don't think that's I think the

1633
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,709
the relationship in that way is

1634
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:14,059
where the CEO can really be helpful

1635
00:45:14,060 --> 00:45:15,679
to the CEO, which is sometimes, as

1636
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,509
we know, CEOs can have all sorts of

1637
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:18,769
crazy ideas about all sorts of

1638
00:45:18,770 --> 00:45:19,999
things and drag the company in

1639
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,319
different directions that are super

1640
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:22,669
unhelpful and very destructive in a

1641
00:45:22,670 --> 00:45:23,509
lot of ways.

1642
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:25,429
So the question of having a sensible

1643
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:27,019
CEO sitting there to talk that stuff

1644
00:45:27,020 --> 00:45:28,849
through, but also for the CEO to

1645
00:45:28,850 --> 00:45:30,859
have some level of like ally

1646
00:45:30,860 --> 00:45:32,449
element to them where they're not

1647
00:45:32,450 --> 00:45:33,769
going to simply dismiss what the

1648
00:45:33,770 --> 00:45:35,579
CEO. Saying outright, but actually

1649
00:45:35,580 --> 00:45:37,049
having that open minded space to

1650
00:45:37,050 --> 00:45:38,099
think it through with them, to

1651
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:39,719
bounce back and forth a little bit

1652
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:41,309
and to help the two of you come to a

1653
00:45:41,310 --> 00:45:42,659
mutual conclusion.

1654
00:45:42,660 --> 00:45:43,799
One, it's the worst thing you can

1655
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,349
say to a co-founder right now.

1656
00:45:46,350 --> 00:45:48,569
First is, yeah, it's a great idea.

1657
00:45:48,570 --> 00:45:50,519
I'm not sure we can do it now, but

1658
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:51,839
let's put it on the backlog or

1659
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,399
something, you know, let's discuss

1660
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:54,509
it and actually see if we could.

1661
00:45:54,510 --> 00:45:56,279
But the worst thing is, I know right

1662
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,779
then you are a blocker and a barrier

1663
00:45:57,780 --> 00:45:59,719
and all of those things.

1664
00:45:59,720 --> 00:46:01,559
So the old adage from improv,

1665
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,239
it's always the yes and response.

1666
00:46:04,260 --> 00:46:06,029
For our listeners.

1667
00:46:06,030 --> 00:46:07,919
If they could only remember one

1668
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:09,659
thing from our conversation today,

1669
00:46:09,660 --> 00:46:11,189
what would it be?

1670
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:12,569
I think this piece of string space

1671
00:46:12,570 --> 00:46:13,469
management is actually really

1672
00:46:13,470 --> 00:46:14,309
important.

1673
00:46:14,310 --> 00:46:16,139
I mentioned to you I've been to all

1674
00:46:16,140 --> 00:46:17,249
apps the session, I've been thinking

1675
00:46:17,250 --> 00:46:19,199
about this where I was like, I love

1676
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,089
this because I now know how I can

1677
00:46:21,090 --> 00:46:23,159
support my zeros further.

1678
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,529
However, how do you build

1679
00:46:25,530 --> 00:46:26,849
on your strengths and really lean

1680
00:46:26,850 --> 00:46:29,159
into those and get proficient

1681
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,059
enough in the areas that

1682
00:46:31,060 --> 00:46:32,999
are your gaps so that you are

1683
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,709
your perceived gaps in order that

1684
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:36,089
you feel confident in your role.

1685
00:46:36,090 --> 00:46:37,139
Because I think that's the important

1686
00:46:37,140 --> 00:46:38,009
piece about it.

1687
00:46:38,010 --> 00:46:39,539
It's actually about, as you were

1688
00:46:39,540 --> 00:46:41,159
saying, it's like just internal

1689
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:42,149
learning just in time.

1690
00:46:42,150 --> 00:46:43,259
Learning is absolutely fine.

1691
00:46:43,260 --> 00:46:44,309
Like that's a good way of going

1692
00:46:44,310 --> 00:46:45,269
about things.

1693
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:46,889
And how can you know enough that you

1694
00:46:46,890 --> 00:46:48,569
just feel confident in those rooms

1695
00:46:48,570 --> 00:46:50,399
and spaces where you need to hold a

1696
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:51,929
good conversation.

1697
00:46:51,930 --> 00:46:53,849
So I think that's the takeaway.

1698
00:46:53,850 --> 00:46:55,559
Lovely. So thank you for coming back

1699
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,569
on to the operations room.

1700
00:46:57,570 --> 00:46:58,739
If you like what you hear, please

1701
00:46:58,740 --> 00:47:00,329
leave a comment or subscribe and we

1702
00:47:00,330 --> 00:47:01,330
will see you next week.