Welcome to the Yappy Hour powered by Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers who want to better understand and support their four legged friends. I'm your host Nathan Dunleavy and today we're talking about something that might surprise you, why daily dog walks aren't always the best thing for your dog. My guest is Niki French, dog trainer, author and creator of hashtag don't walk your dog day. Niki's book, Stop Walking Your Dog, challenges the idea that every dog needs a daily walk and she's on a mission to help pet parents find alternative ways to meet their dog's needs. In this episode, we dive into why traditional walks can sometimes be difficult. do more harm than good, what to do instead, and how pet parents of sensitive, nervous or anxious dogs can feel less isolated. Whether you're rethinking your daily walks or just curious about a fresh approach to enrichment, this episode is packed with useful insights. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let's get started.

Welcome back to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and I'm so excited to bring you another episode of the Yappy Hour today. Even more exciting that we've got the lovely Niki from PopTalk joining me today. Niki is a dog trainer, author, podcaster herself. focused on helping dogs that struggle in the outside world. Niki is an advocate for alternative ways to meet a dog's needs needs beyond traditional walks. She's the creator of hashtag don't walk your dog day, which we're going to be chatting about in today's episode, which is all about encouraging owners or pet parents to rethink how they support their dogs. So I'm so excited to have Niki with us. today. Niki, welcome to the yuppie hour. How are you? So you're a

I've done a few podcasts of my own and much more relaxing being on the other side. Thanks for having me.

host to yourself of your own podcast, which we'll be chatting about, but normally you're the one in the, you know, doing the interviewing and that now it's sort of roles reversed. I'm sure you've been guests on other podcasts as well. So it's nice to be in, you know, in the other seat, but no, it's great to have you with us today. today. Thank you for taking the time. I'm so excited to dive in. There's, we've got lots to cover off today. So for those Niki, who may not know you yet, which I find hard to believe, let me just have a little segue here because three different guests that I've interviewed, I've all said, you must get Niki on the yappy hour. So I had Andrew Howe and then Sarah Jones is a friend of yours. And then. Danny from Tug Enough, they all said, right, you need to get Niki on. So I was like, right, I already had my sign anyway that I had to, you're on my list. But now the universe was telling me to reach out and that's what I did. So can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, Pup Talk and what inspired your training journey, please?

Yeah, I'd love to. Oh, that's so special. You know, I've met so many incredible people in this industry. So A little bit of history of how I got into this. I mean, I've only been a dog trainer for six years

Oh, okay.

yeah, it's a complete career change for me. So I was animal mad as a kid like I was feral barefooted trees. I thought I could tame wild squirrels. I was born in Yorkshire and some

Love that. Aww.

in, in Yorkshire and they had working sheep dogs and summer holidays were just Dillick like they'd always be a new new batch of puppies to play with and I'd be playing with the sheep dogs when they weren't working and like it was just it was just a dream childhood. And then fast forward 30 years and I've like got this corporate life. How

Oh, I, I know the feeling. Yep. Yep.

I don't know, then I didn't really think working with dogs other than, you know, as a kid I thought I'll be a vet and then I

Oh yes.

pleasant side of being a vet and I thought, well, I don't want to do that. So I didn't

Yes.

it was an option to work with animals. There wasn't, you know, I didn't think I could go off and be a behaviourist then. So So I got a proper job and then fast forward to, gosh, where are we now? 2014 I had a bicycle accident. I was knocked off my bike,

Oh my goodness.

a, a little bit of a brain injury, nothing massive, but I had short term memory issues and.

Wow.

It really, it's hard to explain, it kind of,

Was it in that epiphany moment or?

it came, it did come, but I used to sit in board meetings and I'd be fine and I'd be doing this, that and the other and I've travelled all over the world and it was all, you know, it was kind of quite exciting, quite fun, I enjoyed it. And then over about three years after the bike accident, I just kind of crumbled a bit. That's all I can kind of describe it as. I just wasn't the same resilient person that I was.

Wow.

bit of a light, but there was no light bulb. There was no kind of like, I was just, I just remember panic of, I can't keep doing this.

Mmm.

with the rest of my life? And. It was, I'd had four cats, because I couldn't even have a dog, because I worked long hours. I

Yep.

two moggies and then two Siamese, because I thought,

Oh, lovely.

can have? and I had a chance conversation with a friend and a friend of hers, and she was a chef, and she said, oh, I'm thinking about quitting at my job as a chef. I'm going to get a dog, and I think I might become a dog trainer. That was

Mmm.

moment.

Wow.

I'm going to do. Like it was

Yeah.

as day. So I resigned two days later. That was

Oh my god. Ha.

woman of action. And in March 2019, I set up my business. So it was a light bulb, but it took three, three years to find that light bulb.

Sometimes it does. Yeah. You know, got to wait for it all to align.

yeah. And it was like, and I, and I, I, as soon as that, those words were uttered, I've never had a second's doubt. that that was

Oh wow.

doing at this. It was,

Amazing.

never have, you know, in all that time. So I started off doing some dog walking while I was training to become a

As you do. Yep.

I wanted to get my hands on as many different dogs as I

Yep. Yep.

very quickly, I I've always been keen on rescue dogs and, and, and, and I was very keen to work with dogs and provide dog walks for the dogs that couldn't go on pack walks

Yes. Yep. Yep.

So I, I didn't realize I was niching, but I kind of was very early on.

Yep.

actually some of my clients, you know, had quite dog and people reactive dogs.

Mmm.

With the owner's consent, those dog walks often didn't involve a walk at all.

Yeah.

around to the house and sometimes, and sometimes the clients would be working from home and I would still go around to the house and give the dogs an hour of relationship building, of

Yeah.

all of

Enrichment. Yeah.

do today. But it started off with, well, I was hired to be a dog walker, and then I'd talk to them and say, well, actually, they're really struggling on the walk. Can I do this instead? So

Oh wow.

learning ground for me. So I felt like I learned an awful lot very quickly. And yet I still feel I know nothing. So I'm still very humble in that way.

The same.

it was like rescues, rehomes, nervous dogs. All of that was sort of what I, I started started off of doing. And that's really how PupTalk came about. My local

Love the name.

Yeah.

name as well.

something that covered everything. My local business is Twickenham Dog Services from a

Yes,

of

saw that.

because I live

Yeah.

But PupTalk is,

Nice.

enough to get people talking about dogs, so I, I can,

Mmm.

to cover all sorts of things. So that's kind of how it came about, but it feels like it's always, it's just always meant to be.

Oh, wow. Some synergy going on because I was in corporate the corporate world as well. I was in banking for sort of 15 years. So I didn't get to travel the world with that, but I, you know, I am quite well traveled because I love my holidays and I lived in Australia. I met my husband there, but yeah, started in the corporate banking world. Ended up with no job and started up two businesses in the same day with no job or no money behind me. But I've only been in the pet industry for seven years myself. So I feel fairly, you know, fairly new to some of the other giants that we kind of, you know, we share circles with. Yeah, that's quite a nice sort of synergy there with us. So we're both fairly new into it all and come from a corporate background, and we just knew we just knew we had to get out because back then I'd say that the bank that I used to work was Barclays, and I had blue running through my veins, I'd say, and I didn't ever see myself out of that career because I joined from school as well,

everyone. Bye.

brilliant. So your book, Stop Walking Your Dog has such a bold title. Now I kind of understand where that's come from now, but what's the core message behind behind it? Why did you write it?

Yeah, I love writing. I knew I wanted to write a dog training book at some point, but there's quite a lot of dog training books. How many do we have on our bookshelves? We were talking about it

We were just saying, yeah.

even read them all yet. You know, there's plenty of dog training books out there.

They are

but there was always this thought, this hope in the back of my brain that I would write a book about dog training at some point.

amazing.

in lockdown, I started working online, like a lot of us,

Yeah,

I had a number of clients that were, that their dogs were really struggling on walks. They were really struggling on walks. They were noise sensitive, worried about dogs, worried about people. You know, most of their walks were quite a stressful event for the dog and their

yeah,

And. Repeatedly putting a dog in a situation that they don't have the skills to cope. doesn't help them It's just adding to their stresses constantly. It's just constantly reinforcing the fact that yes, I'm right. This is a scary world and was the second time I said on one of these sessions, need to stop walking your dog. And, and I took, and then I was just like, I wrote that down. And I thought that that is the title of the book. And that is the topic. And

Great.

then another beautiful light bulb, happy accident. I started writing nine months later, it was published. It was just,

Wow.

was there and it was in, I mean, I'm not saying it was easy. It was a lot of hard work, but it was in me.

Yeah,

So it was just about having the hook and, you know, my, my corporate life, I was in sales and marketing. So I

okay.

element of me that kind of goes, I, I get the need to the sizzle on the sausage. I hate that phrase terribly, but you need something that grabs people.

You do, you do. And it's certainly very eye catching and grabbing the attention.

yeah, so it was definitely, it's a title that really grabs people, but it also challenges people. And I

Yes.

that.

Got my coffee here. My side coffee must, I must, I must add.

And so the, so

Thank you.

nervous, the nervous and the anxious clients that I was working with. And there was also my own dog, Bodhi. So Bodhi is a batty rescue boy, and

okay.

came to us when he was eight months old. He's a collie lurcher. He'd been in and out of Battersea twice by the age of eight months for nothing more than over exuberance. And with hindsight, actually quite a lot of worry again, quite a sensitive dog,

People just don't understand, do they? Wow.

It was a turning point for us, my boyfriend and I, when we were, we were walking him twice a day and I was learning to be a dog trainer and I was thinking, Oh dear Lord, if I can't help him, how can I help my clients? You know, I felt like I was doing a really bad job with him. And there was plenty of tears around, you know, struggling with a young adolescent dog that went from 22 kilos to 34 kilos, fully grown, big enough. Was a

strong boy.

and, and. We, we decided to ditch the evening walk and that changed everything. Like in the evenings, late afternoons, even like witching hour wasn't witching hour. It was like witching four hours. It was a

Oh, wow.

As soon as we ditched the second walk in the day, everything changed.

Mm.

less than the time that we spent with that second walk, we started doing small bursts of little. Brain games, enrichment games, like all of the kind of stuff that I talk about, that was a turning point. And even

Lovely.

most, most of the time, and he's six now, most of the time he only gets one walk. And sometimes he might not even get a walk. He'll get a duvet day and we'll do other stuff. And it was a turning point for him. So it was another of example of the fact that this isn't a message just for the dogs that are a bit nervous out there. looks like the most Ridiculously friendly dog ever, but he

Yeah.

overwhelming

Yeah.

then doesn't know what to do with himself. So for him, it worked really, really well to not be in this, I must walk my dog two to three times a day. So,

I think we're conditioned. I've said this before, as, as, as he, as Brits, as humans, like we're conditioned that I must walk my dog twice a day for an hour a day. But in some instances with certain dogs that that could be worse for them and they don't need it. Do the, the brain games, the sniffy stuff, the enrichment, the mental stimulation instead. Yes.

then you can add into that, like sometimes, like, you know, lockdown, we were only supposed to go out once a day. So, like,

Yeah.

it might be that the dog is you know, this might not just be behavioural stuff. It can be physical stuff. There might be some kind of injury they're recuperating from or some illness, either for the dog or the human. It might be horrible weather, too cold, too wet, too hot. Might be pre vaccination puppies. It might be aging dogs that can't walk as well. far as they used to, but they still have mental and physical needs.

Yeah,

be a bitching season that you don't want to have out in the middle of the park and, you know, have an untoward coupling happen. So there's, you know, it's not just behavioural stuff. If. If your dog is used to having things mixed up a little bit, doing things differently, then if you need to change that routine, like say your dog walks, say your dog walks are amazing, like no one should stop doing them. sometimes it's good to have other things in your toolkit for when you

Definitely.

know, so

definitely. Love that. Absolutely love that. And we were just saying before we came on about we've got all these different books, but I like to support other dog trainers as well when they have a book. So I like to get the book in. But I definitely will be making a conscious effort to read this one because as well, it's a manageable size as well. And and I like that. So yeah, I'm really excited to read it. And

read.

yeah, it's,

not a dog trainer behaviour book. It's a very,

yeah,

that's only just got a dog, they should be able to read it and go, Oh,

yeah.

I can do this. I

I can relate to that. Yeah, I love that. I absolutely love that. Thank you so much for telling us more about the story behind your book. So we're going to be moving on to our next section now, which we've touched on a little bit, but just the myth of, of myth, the, the myth. I can't get my words out. Here we go. The myths of daily dog walks, that's a mouthful. So why walking isn't always the best? So many people, like we said, assume that daily walks are essential for all dogs. But why do you think is the time to change? this narrative now.

I think I think That, that social norm, that pressure on us, like, I think so many people think, well, I'll, you know, I have a dog, I

I must, that's what I said, we're like, we're conditioned, aren't we?

help. It was, I was listening to your episode with Vicky Mane and I thought that was brilliant. At the start, she was saying how that with Sam, she said it felt completely counterintuitive to stop walking him. does. Like, it

Yeah.

Because it is just part of our psyche of having a dog. And, and even, you know, when I talk to people that are, they're you know, they're generally pretty connected with their dogs, and their gut is telling them one thing, that there's something in this is not working, it's not right for them, but there's still, might be partners, family, friends, they're often getting those sort of differences of opinion

Yeah. And that's the,

advice, and it

everyone thinks they're an expert.

conflict you know, all that well meaning advice of, oh, just, Keep doing it and they'll get better with it, or people can get for not taking their dogs out

Yeah.

know it's really hard and it's really stressful and

Yeah,

I think the social pressure is there, but it's going to take us. Talking like we are about these topics,

exactly.

to help the people that in most of the people that have a dog that struggles on a walk, their gut is telling them, this isn't the way to go. And I think it's giving them the feeling of permission

Yeah,

can act on those feelings.

that's it. Yeah.

that's a thing. And, you know, yeah, yeah, I think that's what I was saying. Right.

No, no, that's great. I mean, I was chatting to Sue Williamson the other day consent based groomer. So another little reveal for our listeners, the episode is coming soon, but, but, you know, she works with sort of anxious and nervous dogs and, you know, she said she had an owner that basically was like, Oh, I'll let it have a run around for two hours before it comes to you. And she was like, no. Do not let it run around because that's just going to make it worse. Getting more head up, the buckets becoming more full, just do some sniffy work with him and brain games instead and that'll just help promote the calmness. But yeah, that's what it's just, we're just wired to think, oh, that's okay. We're getting, get him walking, that'll burn off his, his energy. But that's, you know, we don't know what we don't know. It's good that we're having these conversations to just, I'm really, I'm really big on education, the pet parents. So the more we can get these conversations out there, you know, the better what are some of the signs that a dog might actually benefit from fewer walk? Yeah, yeah,

I think if when you're out on a walk, they're not able to the food that they normally would endorse. That's a big flag for me. It may be they're too excited. It may be they're too stressed. You know, if they're in that fight or flight state, even if they don't look like they're trying to fight or flee you know, if their stomach has shut down. That

yeah.

they're not in a good headspace. They're not able to learn. They're probably not able to process. It's just a very reactive state to be in. So, you know, not being able to take food, I think, is big. Also not being able to drink.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I've never thought of that one before.

instance, I've been at dog shows and we do the yellow space zones with my anxious dog, with Sarah.

Mm hmm.

a massive thing because the dogs out on the show, when they come in and they get a bit of time out in a yellow space zone, which is. sort of like a decompression thing away from walking in a busy

I love that idea.

can suddenly have a drink.

Yeah.

guardians go, oh, they, they, we gave them, we offered them water up until now and they couldn't drink. And it's because

No.

you know, so little things like that. If you carry water with you and you offer it to your dog, if they can't drink, is it because they're not thirsty or is it because they're a bit too stressed to to

Well, yeah. I never even thought about water. I thought about food, but never water. Wow.

Yeah,

Yeah, that's so interesting.

just be increased panting or something like that, you know, and, and thinking, is it 'cause it's a bit warmer? Is it 'cause they've been running around? Or is it just 'cause their sta their status, you know, got heightened.

Yeah.

and I think it's just, you know, observe your dog, you know. to know your dog, but those are probably or if there's little tricks that they know if they love a little hand touch game or they love putting their paws up on something if you're in a situation where you invite them to do it and they can't do it, but you know, normally they love it again. That gives you really useful information like

Yeah. Sure.

I used to use that as a sort of a. like a check in with Bodhi as to whether I would think am I going to let him off lead or not?

Mmm.

spent a long time using a long line with him

Yeah.

that little, like, is your brain with me or are you completely, you know, as

Yeah. You're gone.

in the building. So,

Yeah.

to know what your dog could normally do and yeah, test that.

Read the signs. Yeah. Like you say, just really get to know and understand your dog. I love the name Bodhi, by the way, absolutely love that name.

all, Ash and I are old enough to know Bodhi and Doyle.

Right, okay, yeah, no worries. I only know Bodhi off a, I only know Bodhi off a TV programme, but I'm sorry, yeah. That LAUGHS Right lovely name though. Right, so what would your response to people who say, but dogs need exercise, don't they?

Yeah. I, you know, you, you can, you can get physical exercise and mental enrichment. And I think, and stimulation, I think we need to put all of those things together. Like you can get those in so many different ways.

Yes. LAUGHS Mmm.

Maybe they've taken their dog to the park, and they've got their dreaded ball chucker, their brawl flinger, and the dog's barking at them as soon as they're in the park, and they're off the lead, and then they fling the ball, and they run from the ball, and they come back, and they bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, fling the ball. You know, okay, so that dog is getting exercise aside from the argument about what it might be doing from a repetitive strain injury, or other things that could be

Yeah

yes, it's running its little legs off, or its long legs off but I, you know, I, I think you can get a very fit dog but not one that is enriched in a physical, mental, way.

yeah. LAUGHS

it's, there are so many ways that you can give your dog exercise and faster, longer, harder is definitely not better.

Mm.

simple ways of dogs getting great exercise without even going outside.

Yeah.

you know, there are, and sniffing, sniffing is exhausting. You know, if you look at how many, how many times a dog breathes in and out when there's truly sniffing something, like if you actually try it yourself to breathe at the speed that they free that they breathe out, like you'll pass out within about

It's insane.

it's exhausting and their brain is processing all that incredible

Yeah.

So getting away from this, my dog needs to do. X amount of hours, X amount of miles. They need, you know, yes, that we want them to run and move freely, but there's a, there's different ways of doing things

Yeah.

Can help them live a very full and rich and longer life

That's

than, than just exercise. It's all about exercise. Frog March.

very regimental. And I think again, it just comes back to education because like with the ball for like, again, we don't know, like they don't, the pet owner doesn't necessarily know that that could cause like, you know, be causing problems with like with their joints and stuff. And if it's like you know, for five or 10 minutes, that might be okay, but not. not like repetitively, like for an hour or so. And, you know, obviously they don't necessarily always know. This is why it's good to sort of talk about is that, you know, just doing 20 minutes brain sniffy work is just the same as a 60 minute outdoor walk in terms of the brain and mental stimulation again. So if we could just get that message out there more and just educate more, that's important, isn't it?

Mm.

Yeah brilliant. Thank you for that. So we're going to be moving on to our next section, which is alternative ways to meet a dog's needs. So if a dog doesn't go for a walk, what are some alternative ways to give them the exercise and enrichment they would need? Late.

Oh, there's so many, there's so many things,

we'll have to keep it late.

I'm going to start off with Ace Free Work because it is just phenomenal.

it is.

to exercise your dog without them running at all. It's mind blowing. So, obviously founded by the wonderful Sarah Fisher,

Yeah.

engage their senses. You can get them sniffing, licking, chewing, foraging in a way that they find beautifully. tiring, but it calms their mind. It can really help them to release body tension. So, you know, it can help that physical and emotional stress that they might be feeling and they can just enjoy some incredible connections with their human.

Yeah.

bond and it's all done in a stress free environment. Now you can do ACE free work out and about, but the best place is to start at home or in

Yeah,

If you've got the smallest outside space, you don't need to buy a load of equipment. You can just buy, you can, you can just, you'll find stuff around your house, plant pots, yoga mats, like

it. Yeah.

work is just. for exercise and enrichment and the dogs inherently know how to move their bodies in the way that benefits them. If we are not flinging balls and food and do this and do that. Like, you know, I'm a trainer and I can get very trainer y. But if I take my trainer hat off and set up stations for Bodhi to just be a dog. He knows how to be a dog and he's really good at it if I let him, you know,

Yeah.

that that is probably one for people to

Yeah.

Google, Google Ace free work and,

Yeah.

know, your dog will thank you for it.

Yeah. We we've got Sarah coming on soon. Sorry. Yeah. Sarah's coming on. So just, just, she's a very busy lady and populated. I'm just trying to book in a date, but she has agreed to coming on to, to the happy hour. And then Sue Williamson was obviously talking about ACE freeworks that helps with the agreement and environment. So just for our listeners, ACE is Animal Centred Education. I actually got a book of Sarah's day. So another one to. To sort of read up on as well. So but yeah, hopefully we'll get a one soon. So yeah. Ace free. What, what else is in your, in your toolbox?

you know,

Yeah.

work, whether it is going off and doing it with, with someone, you know, with an organization or one to one, but like every dog can do scent, scent work. You can do scent work around the home. You can hide some treats and toys and blah, blah, blah. So, you know, scent work is the easiest way to get your dog, know, moving nicely and you know, using their nose, using their brain, having a fun time with you. So

Yeah.

home. Man trailing. pet trailing, hoopers, agility, hiring private fields, you know, going somewhere for a swim in a, in a river or a sea that's safer. You know, there's so many things that don't have to be a walk for exercise or the

That's it. Yeah.

but there is a dog that they, they, they're bonded with, or even a, you know, a friend or a neighbor that, you know, has a garden. Even just going around with your dog for your dog to experience someone else's garden

All the smiles.

yeah, all the different smells and the foxes and the hedgehogs would have, that would have been in that garden is probably different in their own garden. And, you know, you don't need to spend money on hiring a private field. If you've,

Yeah.

people that you can just call a favorite and go, can I come around and borrow your garden for half an hour? You know,

Love that.

that you can do. It doesn't, this is not about spending money. Know,

Yeah.

things, and all of these things that you're doing with your dog, like, you're there with them, like, your relationship will, will only benefit from it, you know, and obviously their, their mental and physical well being only stands to, to, to benefit from it.

Yeah. Absolutely love that. Even just with a, an Amazon box or parcel and all the parcel stuff, put in some treats and just get them using their nose and snuffling around for it. Yeah.

I

stuff.

bad habit that my boyfriend life laughs at. We have a spare bedroom. There's so many boxes in there. I can't throw them away. I can't. 'cause every time I go and see a client, I think, right? Have I got a dog? Have I got a box that's big enough for a rot, rot, Rottweiler? Have I got one that's good enough for a miniature dax? And so I ha I, I need them all.

I love.

at me like you got, get rid of some. I can't.

Well, they're a tool, they're a tool for your business, so we all need our tools. Brilliant. So some great some great options there. So how does giving the dogs choices rather than forcing them into situations help build their confidence, Niki?

Lives, they have so little choice. They have so little opportunity to make choice. And, you know, fundamentally a dog wants to feel safe. Like Andy Hale's episode with you. Brilliant. People need to go back and listen to that if they haven't heard of it. you know, they,

loved it.

they can make. So if it's something that they're feeling a little bit uncertain about, If they're given the choices to, do they

Okay. Okay.

But it's got to be in a way that's, that's right for me. So if, if they feel listened to, you know, we're not luring them and coaxing them with food to go towards something that they're worried about, if they understand that they can trust us, that we're not going to put them in that situation where they don't feel safe, they will grow their trust in us. And they will see us as, as, as a means to be able to go, actually, no, I can rely on you. Okay. I know you're not going to put me somewhere where I'm not, not feeling okay.

Yeah.

So I think that that's, that's quite an important thing. But yeah, it's, it's, it's just magical when, when, when you don't put pressure on dogs to do something. And you know, that's sort of in a sort of a behaviour sense, but even, even just giving them a little bit more agency in their own life, a little bit more choice in their own life. And I can, I can give you some examples of that, if that, if that's useful.

Oh, yeah. I mean, please, please do. Yeah. Let's, let's, let's delve into that.

Yeah, so I think, you know, it comes to things like enrichment Something like that, it's so simple, but you know, we buy massive bags of tripe sticks and rabbit's ears and all that kind of stuff. I'm a big fan of natural chews for Bodhi. It's

And the same,

decompress. Like, you know, it looks like a horrible animal body part in one cupboard in my kitchen. All those tripe sticks, there might be lots of different sizes and shapes. They all smell disgusting to me.

To them, it's like, whoa,

why should I pick one out and give it to him?

let him chase.

I'm giving you this one. And that's a beautiful thing for me to do. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But there's nothing wrong with me getting out three or five of them and popping them down on the floor and

Love that.

sniffing them all, and then he'll go back and then he'll pick up that one. I've no idea why. And then he'll run off, please just punch. And it's a different kind of happy trot

Love that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

out a few and say, go, you can pick one. And not many dogs will run along and try and pick them all up and run off. Maybe. You know, or if you put down some kind of something for licking, you know, different licky mat textures or things like that, you know, we give them something on a lick mat. Here you go. what if you had a couple of different textures? It might be something smooth. It might be one of the slightly more textured, bobbly lick mats. Maybe you've got the same thing on both. This is kind of ace free work principles of giving them some kind of choice. You can pop both down. Maybe one's at a slightly different height to the other one, or maybe one's at a slightly angle to a flat and see, which do they seem to prefer? Or do they just like both of them? Like it

Yeah.

them information and they get to choose and they get to express themselves. So, so I think there's huge power in little choices because they don't, you know, we say we're getting up now. We say we're going for a walk now. Yes, you can go in the garden. No, you come in from the garden. Yes, you will put this on. Like they don't have a lot of choice in their lives.

No.

intelligent beings not

They are.

have many choices in life.

So it's all about choice and consent which I love. So I think we might have sort of touched on our next question just some simple enrichment ideas that owners can try right away. Obviously the one with the Amazon box and the

Yeah.

and, you know, have you got any other sort of quick enrichment ideas?

low sided cardboard box. I was always always say to people like start simple,

Yes.

a box where there's flaps that might worry them or they might

Of course.

you know, cut the sides down, make it really easy for them to just poke their nose into if they want to, and always have food around the outside. So if they don't want to put their head into the box, they don't have to, they can still get food that might be just somewhere near the box. I'm all about recycling. So cardboard, any, any recycling you can use in so many different ways.

Yeah.

like, you know, the dog towels, we all have umpteen dog towels, you know, just scattering some food in a towel, scrunching it up, rolling it up.

Yeah.

a lot of different things. Just keep it fun. You know, this is not meant to be an ordeal in order

Yeah.

food. This is meant to just kind of engage seeking system, get them

Yes.

if they're tail wagging, do they look happy with the experience or are they just ragging it around? Cause they're a bit annoyed and they just want to have dinner. So, you know, read your dog things to sniff. Like when I come in from, I don't know, food shopping or coming in from seeing clients. Bodhi wants to sniff me up and down, my bags, I'll put my rucksack down, and in effect I'm, I'm just there as a sniffing object for him. I'm

Yeah.

enrichment and I just sit

Your shoes

there let him give me a good old sniff until he's done. Like that's enrichment. Like it doesn't, I think we have to think it's all food related.

doesn't have.

some, some dogs that you know, perhaps they can't go on as many walks bringing outside smells. So it might be you bring some clippings from somebody else, or you bring in a little bit of a or something like that. Or I know one person, their dog was not mobile at all, but very scent driven. And she used to get some little cloths in Ziploc bags, and she'd rub the cloths on little points along the walk and put them into the Ziploc bag and take them back. And then she could lay out like a sensory experience in the space that the dog was comfortable exploring. So, you know, the little pee posts, the pee mail would come in for this dog to experience. So it's not all about food. So if people say, Oh, my dog's not foodie and all that kind of stuff, like, you know, it can be other things. If anybody gets raw food or gets any other kind of anything that comes in that needs to be kept chilled, you've got that natural sheep's wool packaging. So

Yes.

It's smelly ish, but it's not horrendous. Things like that can be amazing.

Yeah.

to get them sniffing and enjoying with digging. I mean, I, you know, Bodhi used to be a massive digger when we first got him. Our garden was just carnage, but we taught him to dig in our compost heap. So we taught him that over and we also built a digging pit that's got play sand in it.

Mm.

you know, digging is, is, is an enrichment and, and rather than us thinking, Oh, how can I stop my dog digging? Give them a space to dig. Like they're dogs. A lot of dogs want to dig and it's great

Yeah.

and they enjoy it. So there's lots of different ways you can give them

saw someone had brought in some leaves, just some crack crackly just the leaves. So they just like, they were all crispy. That's the word I was going for.

Okay.

choose his. So when I was doing puppy, when I was teaching in person, puppy classes, obviously we'd encourage the pet parent to identify a high value treat or reward and something different from like their normal boring treats or their, their food. And a lot of them did struggle to that. Oh, okay. But I used to like doing telling them to do the taste test So I was like put some cheese under one and put some chicken or something else but a steak under another cup but let them go along to the different cups that are covered over and let them pick the the, the the high value treats rather than you tell them, here's your high value reward. And they were like, Oh, okay. Yeah. That's, that sounds like a good, it's to let the dog choose to their, their tree and their high value reward. He used to love saying that

I love that. And, and what they pick one time might

it might be different.

they pick another. Like, you

And I said, Oh, they might,

can

said, they might pick two things and that's fine. Or Yeah, and that's okay. Like, let them choose. Brilliant. Thank you so much. So we're going to move on to the emotional impact on our pet parents, our guardians. So many pet parents, Niki, feel guilty if they don't take their dog for a walk every day. How can we shift that way of thinking?

Yeah, that's a it's a massive one for people. I think trying to find something fun at home that you can do so that your dog is having a fun time with you. You know, it might just be hiding a toy around the place or learning a new trick or hiding some treats around or something like that. So trying to. do something where you can see they are quite clearly having fun with you.

Yeah.

I think that can be a positive reinforcer for yourself. I think connecting with people that share a similar mindset, you know, this might be online. It, it, it, you know, there's people in my membership, like, they, they do not think two daily, two walks a day is the norm. Like there are spaces, there are people like you you need to find those people because you are going to face people in your daily life. You may be

That's it.

them. There's often conflict. you know,

Yes.

people that you're, you know, that you're, that you're your nearest and dearest. So find some people that really can become your tribe, because

that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Some kind of notes, or some kind of tracker like if you have a dog that's reacted to dogs or people, you start to keep some little notes of, oh, you know, had a big reaction on this walk, or only had a little reaction here, if you keep some kind of diary, some kind of tracker, what works for anybody, a little notepad, or a spreadsheet, or whatever. When you're working on these things, if you are reducing the walks, shortening the walks, whether you've stopped the walks, when you start, when you're still doing, when you say you are still doing some of the walks, if you notice, well, you know, if you can look back over weeks and months and you can go, okay, well, you know, this time three, three months ago. was having a reaction on like 80 percent of his walks. Now we might be walking, you know, doing shorter walks. But now he's only having reactions on 50 percent of walks. if you were in that moment, you might still, you might be thinking, Oh, he's still reacting on half of his walks. You have probably moved on from the fact that he was reacting on nearly all of them.

Yeah,

So

yeah,

to reflect

like,

I think

like a diary.

Yeah, whatever works for people, like it can help you go. No, this is, this is helping, you know, and you need to, you need to be, you need to be, you need to motivate yourself to keep going because some of these, some of these things are not quick fixes.

yeah.

So you need to help yourself. I'm a big fan for a Wins Jar. This wasn't a prop, but I have my own Wins Jar. It's a, it's a

Yes,

vermex pot. Can you recognize the vermex

milks. Yeah,

I write down little things

that is,

has done.

that is brilliant. But you can do that for yourself as well.

I do. I do. It's like it's my own personal start up because I have, I have a short term memory anyway. I have memory issues, but I've never been good at memory. Like, I've never been any good in quizzes or anything.

Same.

I can get, you know, I'll open that once a year maybe and go, Oh gosh, yes, I remember. And we'll say to Ash, do you remember he used to do that? Oh gosh, yes. You know, like Bodhi's far, you know, who wants a perfect dog? But Bodhi's far from perfect. Like, he's still a handful, but we've come such a long way.

Yeah,

I

you do.

so helping to ditch the guilt and to feel that what you're doing is, is, is working,

Yeah,

something that, know, is, is reinforcing what you're doing. You know, you

brilliant.

yourself some rewards as well.

I love that. And just for our listeners who may not be watching, my SA dog Bailey has joined us now. So this is why I got into dog training and became a separation anxiety behaviour consultant specialist because of my own SA dog and wanting to help owners, but he's got a hyper attachment to me. So he's just coming, he wants to just come and sit with me now and that's okay. So he often makes an appearance on the yappy hour. Right, brilliant.

of jealous like that because Bodhi's the opposite of that. He's very much, I want my own

leave. That's a bit like what

wish what you didn't have, I think.

No, I know. Yeah, I mean, I've got seven dogs, so I wouldn't be able to manage if they were all like Bailey. But luckily, you know, he's, he's our special sort of boy and sort of led me into the training world. So we've all got our stories, ain't we? But it's funny because most people I speak to on here It's because of their own dog that's kind of got them into, you know, into training as well and stuff. So it just makes it more relatable. So Niki, you work with a lot of pet parents who feel isolated because their dog struggles outside. What's one thing that they can do today to help with their struggles?

I think, I think the biggest thing is finding people like you, finding, or finding people that understand. I think

Yeah,

huge. You know, those friends and families are not likely to be your best source of support.

Your people. I like that. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Love that. You're not

and you know, sometimes people that I talk to, they, they have considered rehoming, they have thought I'm not the right person for this dog. And you know, so there's quite serious things at stake sometimes. So, Yeah, having some connections that you can make for yourself you know, no matter where they are, will be a way to help them move forwards towards perhaps not the dream they envisaged before they got this particular dog or something like that, but certainly something closer to it. And

what people need to know. You're never alone. So there's, it is.

when you have a dog. You feel like a real social pariah

I did. I do still.

feel judged. And yeah, I mean, I still experience, you know, Bodhi can still, you know, give it full beans. He sounds like a husky. And it's just because he's like, they haven't turned around to look at me. And he's

How very dare they.

And I've got dog trainer written on my back. It's like, Oh, this is

It's always the way.

It's life like it's life. So, yeah.

Oh, brilliant. Niki, how can we create a more supportive culture for pet parents of sensitive or anxious dogs? They

to feel comfortable share their stories on social media, I think is And, and like, you know, as we said, I think often people feel quite alone. They feel that they're the only person, you know, they're a bad owner and they've got a bad dog. And, you know, their, their dream life with their dog hasn't turned out how they thought it would be. Sometimes they've, they've, they're still grieving the previous dog that was a certain way. And then there's a, you know, a new dog that is different. Like I hear this so often, and

compare

dogs

a lot. They compare a lot, don't they?

isn't it? Like, it's completely normal to do that. If anyone feels able to, if they can share something like share a photo, share the warts and all stuff, the bits that they feel comfortable sharing. That, you know, if you, if people post up a, you know, a photo of their dog and just go, the what was a bit of a disaster today. And maybe this is where you've got the safe online communities. Like, I wouldn't do it in some of the local

I know.

dog walking groups, you know, I wouldn't do it in those kind of groups, but in your safe spaces sharing about it, and some people are wonderful at sharing on, you know, their public social media about the absolute disasters that they've had, and I share my disasters with

Yeah,

I feel

I'm a bit of an overshower.

from the front the day that Bodhi slipped his harness and took off towards the dog reactive dog, that was not my

Oh, wow.

Yeah, but I share it, I talk about it, like there's a podcast episode about it, so it's

It just makes you, it makes you more human and more relatable.

Yeah,

know, you understand it.

Think, yeah, anything that people feel able to talk about and share with their struggles, I think is good, because then other people will be like, Oh, and often you can get a lot of support from people going, Oh, thanks for sharing that. Something similar happened to me. And, you know, you can sort of grow that. I think Another brilliant thing is I know lots of professionals share details of my book. So, you know, even if somebody doesn't buy the book, the fact that somebody can go, Did you know somebody's written a book about Like walk, not walking as much and maybe doing other things. It can help that conversation of people going, What? What do you mean? Oh,

yeah.

a book. This thing, I think it's much like expecting to walk your dog. If someone's written a book about it, it must be true. And I'm sure there's plenty of books and it's not true. You know what I mean? Somebody's gone to the effort of putting it in

No, I know what you mean. Yeah,

validity, and I

it does.

can help. So just telling somebody, like, I'm not walking my dog as much, and look, somebody's even written about a book, so it must be

Yeah,

that can be helpful.

yeah, and it's like, when I was working like one, like, when I was doing one to ones in person, doing training like, and you'd work with a nervous or anxious dog, and then you'd say to the pet parent, just give them a day off the next day, don't walk the dog, and they're like, what?

Yeah.

dog. And I'm like, no, just give him a day off. Give him a chance to decompress. Explain like the stress bucket and things like that. Just give him a chance to fully decompress. And it's okay not to walk your dog seven days a week. They can, they're allowed days off.

Yeah, and some people will say, Oh, my dog will go nuts if we don't take them for a walk. And I get that like if they are used to going out at a certain time every day to start off with that will be tricky. But you know, there are ways that you can you can can ease in that that variation.

Yeah.

The other thing in terms of like that supportive culture thing is is. yellow space awareness products like,

Yes. Love it.

you know, I have one that says rescue dog. I have one that says in training, like

Oh, wow.

Bodhi's not a nervous or anxious dog, but if I'm going somewhere busier, I've got a flash of yellow on, then that's helping to spread. And it can also just help. Conversations like you can

Yeah.

spread that message out there that the yellow could means I I might need a bit of space for whatever reason. So, so things like that, you know, start helping those conversations,

Yeah.

can can

Love that.

helpful.

Yeah, love the, love the yellow raising awareness again and the education and stuff. Perfect. Niki, so we're going to move on to our next section, which I'm really excited about because it's coming up soon. And it's, I don't know if I should always say this, but I said it with Sarah, like hashtag or don't, don't walk your dog day, but hashtag don't walk your dog day. Changing the conversation. So you created the hashtag Don't Walk Your Dog Day. Tell us all about it and what inspired this campaign.

Yeah, yeah. So after the book came out, I have to say, I was, I wrote it not really thinking that many people would actually buy it. I just wrote it. I didn't, I didn't think that far, far ahead. But I was quite overwhelmed by the response

oh wow, love that.

quickly started getting emails from people thanking me for giving them permission to do things differently

Okay.

things like, Oh, it's like you wrote this for me. Like you personally wrote this book for me. And I mean, what I like it again, it brings me out in goosebumps now. Like how amazing to connect with somebody through through a book in that way.

Yeah.

it. I wanted to take that further. for me an awareness day, like it's not, it's a nationally day. To at least like at least one, and every day can be a don't walk your dog day, but at

Of course.

year, can people talking about it and, you know, get debates happening and it. Yeah, it became apparent that we really needed to do more to spread that, spread this word. I, it's the 2nd of April

Yes.

it's not a random date. It was very carefully thought through. So April is Stress Awareness Month.

Oh, okay.

Human Stress Awareness Month. And a

Oh, wow.

the human stress. I wanted it to be early on in April. I wanted a bit fairly early on in spring. I thought I would avoid April Fool's Day. I So I didn't put it on the 1st of April, and the

Good.

and also April is also Active Dog Month as well. So Active Dog Month, it's not all

Okay.

you know, walks, exercise, so it all kind of like came together. But yeah, the 2nd of April was the first day in April other than April Fool's Day. So that's how it came to be that day.

Many years are we into it now, Niki?

this is year four, coming up to

Oh wow,

Yeah,

and I was speaking to Sarah like from My Anxious Dog obviously because she's got her yellow day coming up in March

yeah.

she was saying like you have to apply for it somewhere like you said yours is a national thing and I was like what I had no idea but yeah you have to apply for it all it has to be approved.

Yeah, I mean, you can, you can make up your own day and just share it.

right.

is, there is thousands and thousands and

Yes.

can make your I like fried eggs day, and you can do it on a given day, and you can share about it, and you might get people posting, like, you can do that. It doesn't need to be official.

Right. Oh

I think one is the year ahead. You can go on and you can look at April and you'll see what days there are. And, you know, some are fun, some are, you know, very heavyweight and there's lots in between. But you, you have to put in a, you know, a proper reason and application as to why this day is important. So

wow.

yeah, yeah, you, you do have to be quite persuasive in,

okay.

in the thing. So it has got kudos for it to be an official day, rather than just one that you just used yourself, which

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know, I love it. So what has the response been from pet parents and guardians?

It's been mixed as you

Oh

It was so funny. The, the first year I did an interview with the mirror online

Oh okay. Yeah.

The headline is obviously going to be red top clickbait clickbaity, which I have no problem with. I'm in my own book. It's kind of capitalizing on that. The the mirror headline was about you know, dog trainer shares why you should not walk your dog every, every day, despite popular belief, something like that. But the article itself was very accurate. Of course, there's lots of people that scroll online, see a headline, never read the article. So anyway. There was

God. Oh, great. Okay. Oh, no.

take that. But there was just lots of people saying, oh, you know, who is she? She's cruel and all the rest of it. And they just hadn't read. They just hadn't read the article, so I, I, I, I didn't find that at all. So it was mixed, but then that is a true representation of what people think dogs need and, and what's, you know, what's right and all the rest of it. So from that, because there was so many comments on this original article, it got picked up. Over the next two weeks, it

Oh, okay.

ended up in Australia and India, and I had a call from

way.

an Australian radio channel and a Hungarian TV news channel. Like, it went, it was on the top of it went into the Ladbible Highlights. It went into MSN and Apple News in their top four. I've got all these screenshots. Like, it was, like,

Yeah, I'm not surprised.

insane.

amazing.

So yeah, from an awareness point of view, wonderful. The headlines got increasingly worse. I mean, how I didn't get more abuse, I don't know.

But people have got an opinion on everything, haven't they? So. Sounds like it.

So it was, it was it was, it was, it served its purpose. So we say in terms of getting people talking about it. So yeah.

Brilliant. So how can our listeners get involved and help spread the message?

Yeah. So, I mean, people are second of April. I mean, if people want to do anything in advance, if there's any dog trainers or anything, if they have you know, a blog or something like that. If they want to write about it, you know, by all means, get in touch with me. If I can supply you with anything any graphics or anything like that, I can do that. But

Oh, okay.

on the day, people can just share a photo of their dog or a video of them doing something. And I think

Yeah.

the nicest thing is sharing all the things that you might do or something that you do, that a dog walk. So on Don't Walk Your Dog Day, Bodhi doesn't go for a walk, so we think we walk the talk

Gotta practice what we preach.

It is the most tiring day of Bodhi's life. I remember the first year I did it, I think I went out a bit too hard and fast. By two o'clock he went to bed and wouldn't get up. I'd planned various other little things here and there. And I think I gave him a bone at one o'clock. And then he chapped out. He was like, that's it, I'm done. It was the hardest day he'd had in his life.

Oh, bless his heart.

all the things that your dog can do, that isn't just a boring old walk. I

packed episode. We've covered so much and the time has just sailed through. So we're going to spend the last sort of five or so seven minutes just sort of wrapping up with some final points and questions, if that's okay, Niki. I've absolutely loved Learning more about you and your, your story. It's been great. Niki, if there's one thing you wish all dog parents, pet parents guardians knew, what would it be?

think our dogs are telling us so much about what they need and they can probably teach us everything we need to do to support them. It, we probably need help in tapping into that and learning how to observe that. And, you know, the more that we look at them, the, the, the more we really watch them and start to learn our own dog's body language, you know, they're all unique. And it's quite, I think it's quite difficult to

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

trying to, you know, I can't learn any languages you know let alone something like Chinese, but like, I wouldn't know where to start. So, you know, it's something to learn. But then I think also, even if you don't know anything for it, it probably will be, right? So I Yeah, listen to your dog and let your gut listen to your dog. And

yeah.

I think is, is probably the big thing.

Brilliant, big on sort of observing, like you say, observing the body language and and stuff and taking that into account. So for any pet parent or guardian who's nervous about skipping walks what's a simple first take, a first step that they can take?

Yeah. Yeah. So I think coming back to what we said a second ago about, you know, if, if, if your dog is used to being walked at X times a day at X time, it can be very hard for them to just go, well, what do you mean we're not going out? So I would say that if you're in that situation, you're thinking, I don't know how to build. into having something like a duvet day or doing something else, if you can play a quick calming game before you go out, and then maybe you shorten up the walk a little bit, and then maybe you play a little calming game, a brain game, a scent game or something when you come back. The whole experience is probably, say you were going for an hour walk, you're probably, you know, going to do well to have, you know, a five minutes max of games, maybe a 30 minute walk. And five minutes again. So you're the time you do it. This doesn't need to take more time, just a little bit of thought, little bit of an intention. If you do some calming game, a little hand touch or, you know, whatever, whatever you know, with your dog,

Yeah. Yeah.

and just do a little bit more games and a little bit less walk. Or one day you might go crazy and go, you know what, we're just going to do some games. And how you get on. You know, you can always go out a little bit later. Maybe just try it.

Yeah,

I think, you

live on the edge.

yeah, this is not about depriving your dog of anything, you know,

No.

you're learning about what your dog loves and you're finding ways to do more of that. So, you know, if, if people don't know a game to play or how to play it and things like that, you know, reach out to me or, you know, your, your dog trainer or your behaviourist, you know, there's lots of things and we, we, we can help you with some some games that will be right for your dog and, you know, what their drivers are.

Yeah, just enrich, you just, you're just enriching their life more, I feel, so and it's good to have a bit of variety, right? I'm big on variety as a spice of life. Niki, where can our listeners learn more about you, your work, your book, upcoming projects, what's next?

Yeah, so my website is probably the easiest place, puptalk. co. uk, super easy. On Facebook I'm Puptalk, everywhere else I'm Puptalk101, because Puptalk had gone.

Okay.

then from there, I mean for instance on the website there's a page on the Awareness Day, so you can, you know, get on the email list and I can send updates out for that kind of thing.

Oh, brilliant.

The Pup Talk, the podcast is on a break at the moment.

Yes, I was gonna

like, well done you, like, I got to 150 episodes and I was

Wow.

so I'm on a pause.

That's okay, we need a break.

I'm sure it will come back. there's still 150 that you can, you can find through the website. And then I am busy writing the follow up to

Are you?

It should.

nice. Nice little reveal.

be published by the end of this year, if, if I keep going. It's felt odd a second time around.

follow up. That's exciting. Have you got names or, can you give us any info yet? Yeah.

And it's kind of what I do a lot with people one to one. So if you've stopped or reduced your walks and you're starting to help them grow skills at home, how do you then start to open up their world again? And I'm trying to really get into the nuances of of how I do with my one to one clients, trying to give people lots of ideas and variations as to how they can expand it out. But it's proving quite a Quite a big meaty thing to to get into to make it digestible.

How exciting, you're doing your follow up. So, Niki, that's brilliant. Remind us of the day that it's your Awareness Day again. Remind us the date.

don't walk your dog day. So it's all in one. Don't walk your dog day is the 2nd of April.

Yeah, and you're at puptalk. co. uk

Yeah.

Perfect. Niki, so, so much for joining me on the Yappy Hour today, powered by Yappily. What a jam packed episode. I've absolutely loved it and I know our listeners are going to get so much from this episode. I really appreciate your time today and we'll have to get you back in the future for when, you know, when this new book's out and we'll get you back on because there's so much more I'm sure we can talk about.

That would be amazing. Anytime.

Thank you so much, Niki.

Thank you.

What a fantastic conversation with Niki French. Here are some key takeaways from today's episode. Number one, not all dogs benefit from daily walks. If a dog struggles outside, skipping walks can actually reduce stress and improve well being. Number two, There are many ways to meet a dog's needs beyond walking. Enrichment activities like scent work, interactive play, and free work can be even more fulfilling. Number three. Pet parents shouldn't feel guilty about making the best choice for their dog. Every dog is different, and it's okay to step away from the traditional, must walk daily mindset. Number four, hashtag don't walk your dog day is helping pet parents feel empowered by sharing experiences and alternatives. This campaign is changing the conversation around walks. Niki, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for challenging outdated thinking about dog care. And to all our listeners, if you want to learn more, please Be sure to check out Niki's book, Stop Walking Your Dog, and join the Pup Talk community. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review, share it with a fellow dog parent, and subscribe so you never miss an episode of the Yappy Hour. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.