Welcome to Talk With History.

I'm your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen.

Hello.

On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world

travels, YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper

conversations with the curious, the explorers, and the history Today's

episode is a special We're taking a deep dive into the life and legacy

of Harriet Tubman, the iconic conductor of the Underground Railroad.

We're

heading straight to the source.

We recently traveled to Dorchester County, Maryland, to visit the Harriet

Tubman Underground Railroad National Historic Park, including the very spot

where Harriet was born into slavery.

In this episode, we'll explore her early years, the daring escapes that she led,

and the network of brave individuals who risked everything to fight for freedom.

We'll also take a virtual tour of the Harriet Tubman Underground Railroad

Visitor Center, where powerful exhibits and artifacts shed new

light on her incredible journey.

So whether you're already familiar with Harriet Tubman or just

learning about her for the first time, this episode is for you.

Get ready to be inspired by the courage, resilience, and resolution

of the Moses of her people.

All right, Jen.

so we didn't even realize it, but we visited The Harriet Tubman

Underground Railroad Center.

Visitor Center, the like on the, the anniversary of her death.

March

10th.

Yeah, we saw all these signs

day.

Yeah.

Like we saw all these signs as we were driving up, we're like, oh no.

Did we unintentionally come and visit like on a super busy day?

And it was, we were actually there the day

day after.

day before Harriet Tubman

like a Saturday,

which was a Saturday to commemorate her new stamp because there's a new

stamp coming out with her image on it.

And so we got there on a Sunday and we were lucky.

And so we got there on Harriet Tubman Day, which is the day she died.

And what's interesting about that is the day she died.

Quite possibly might be the day she was

That was, that was very interesting.

So she dies March 10th, 1913, and she's born circa 1922.

And some researchers in the past, I'd say 10, 15 years found a ledger where

her enslaver had paid a midwife for the birth of a child from her mother.

And it was dated like March 15th.

And so people believe that she might have been born.

March

Right around that

Wait, because he might've paid, probably paid her five days after.

So yeah, it's a, it's amazing.

That would be her 90th, her 91st birthday if she would've died right

pretty incredible.

Now, we went up there to make a video for us from Norfolk.

It was about three and a half hours, but we got to drive up the eastern shore

Yeah.

So what's so, what's so unique about the area is this very waterway intense area.

It's a beautiful

It's beautiful, but because of driving it doesn't

make it easy to drive and.

It's outside of Annapolis.

It's outside of DC.

It's on the other side of Maryland in that kind of watery island ish

looking part of the state where you're kind of like, what's over there?

And that is where she was born.

That's where she escapes enslavement for the first time.

That's where she goes back and rescues her family, and she understands that

waterway area so well, having been raised there, that she's very good

about navigating that and getting people out of enslavement through

And I can see.

In an area like that, the eastern shore of Maryland that has so many water

inlets and it would, if you wouldn't, if you didn't know your way around

there, you could get lost and have to double back and triple back and do,

it would take you extra time just to travel from one location to another.

If you were going to try to travel from, let's say Washington DC to somewhere

on the eastern shore of Maryland.

If you didn't know the way, or if you weren't, if you weren't

traveling on one of the main roads, it would be incredibly difficult.

Oh, absolutely.

When you think of, let's for example, let's use John Wilkes Booth, when

he tries to escape and go just great across the waterway from

Maryland to Virginia, he doesn't.

They get lost in a waterway and just go westward back into Maryland.

They don't even cross into Virginia because they don't

understand the waterways there.

And a lot of those waterways where Harriet Tubman was born were

actually dug and made by enslaved

Oh, I didn't realize that.

So her people made them.

And I talk about this as well.

Her father lived on a different plantation than her mother.

And a lot of their family was sold into different families, enslaving

families in the area, but they were allowed to visit each other.

And she became very well known.

Acquainted with the topography of the area and the waterways are there

because of that from a very young

Now, that was one question I had in my, in my head

when I was making the video.

Was that kind of the norm of the time for enslavers to allow their

enslaved to travel to go visit family?

Or was it more like they were traveling with, the master of the household for

business purposes, and that just, they happened to go get to see their families?

it depends, right?

Depends on how close the enslaver, the overseer holds tight to their people,

What kind of happens and what I've learned doing my research

is a lot of enslaved are Yeah.

sold out to other plantations, especially during working season, because you

need more of the hands than you actually have to do certain things.

So you help each other out.

And my slaves will come.

Plant your land and then your slaves come plant my land and those slaves will

So that's a little bit of how that

So that's more how that worked.

Plus what I've also seen is on when crops weren't in the ground and you

could get a certificate of travel.

Remember that happened with that lynching site that I investigated?

That was during January because there would be no

crops in the ground wintertime.

So sometimes you might get a travel certificate to go see

your family if it was close by.

And sometimes enslavers did that because it kept you satisfied.

It kept you staying in your confinement.

It kept you, not trying to run away.

Plus family also tethers you.

to the area.

And if you do have people who run away, they're running away

from more than just enslavement.

They would be running away from their family.

And so to keep family and to keep a tie to your family there

is also, benefits the enslaver.

So to help do, facilitate seeing your family helps keep

people in that lifestyle.

Yeah, and again, I just thought that was so interesting that Harriet

Tubman being allowed to, to travel and to see, to know that area of

Maryland so well, the Eastern shore,

that is essentially what gave her the, some of the skills

that she needed later on.

skills she needed later on.

checking traps

along the shoreline for this certain type of like a, like a mink rat and its fur was

better in the winter, winter fur, right?

And so as a young girl, she could get into these waterways and check these

traps for the fur traders, and it was very hard labor for a child, but because she's

enslaved they use her labor to do that.

So it's another way that she gained an understanding of all of these

waterways because she's checking these traps as a young girl.

So it, Again, one of these horrible things that she has to do as a young child

being enslaved, but will benefit her as a conductor on the Underground Railroad.

Yeah.

So now let's, let's step back a little bit.

We we, we jumped in there because she's such an interesting character and she's

done some incredible, incredible things.

But, so she was born in, you said 1822.

1822, she's

born

Araminta, Araminta Ross.

they called her

Minty.

They

call her Minty as she names herself Harriet Tubman.

That's the name she wants to give herself because she

doesn't want her enslaved name.

And she's born to enslaved parents, her mother, Harriet, who they

call Rit Green and Ben Ross.

And Rit was enslaved by the Brodess family.

And later her son, Edward.

That's where the marker is.

That's where we stop.

That's where they say is the birthplace of Harriet Tubman.

She's not quite born there.

She's born more when you go to the business center and you cross

the bridge to go see the marker.

She's born more where that bridge area is where the waterway is.

But that's where her marker is.

Harriet Tubman thought her birth year was 1825 and her death certificate.

It lists 1815 her gravestone lists 1820, but again,

historians have found 1822 in the

the record

Yeah.

In the record.

That was found, in 2004.

The visitor center is amazing.

It's free.

It's run by the National Park Service.

We had got there in On a Sunday in March, which is Women's History Month.

So it was great to go there at that time But I just want people

to know it's closed on Mondays.

So it's only

So it's only open Tuesday through Sunday So if you're listening

to this, it's closed on Mondays.

Don't be like me going to Dr.

Mudd's house Coming to a locked

And, and definitely don't, don't drive there.

If you're too low on gas, you make sure you get gas, a decent ways before you get

there because Eastern shore, it's great.

There's, there's plenty of kind of services on the drive out there,

but it's not a main, it's not the

95.

Going between Richmond and D.

C.,

expensive.

it's a little more expensive and those gas stations get a little

bit more spread out, and then when you're driving around, like when we

were driving around from the Visitor Center over to the marker, you're

just driving some side country roads.

Yeah, exactly.

It's open 10 a.

m.

to 4 p.

m.

and the address is 4068 Golden Hill Road in Church Creek, Maryland.

So you're in that, like you said, rural Maryland area and

the National Park Visitor Center It's a really great facility.

It has a great movie that you can watch there.

It really talks you through her life, has a lot of things that kind of show

you what built her and changed her life.

And it shows you more kind of hands on exhibits.

But it was really a neat place to go, especially for our children to.

I think it's safe for kids.

I'm safe.

I mean, it's not too much for them.

yeah.

No.

It's super kid

Yeah,

super kid

And even one of the things that I actually really appreciated, because

they talked, they go a lot of kind of explaining her family history and kind

of all her family figures, but they, they, they weren't afraid to emphasize

her youth when she got injured, when she got hit in the head by that weight.

So we actually go there.

That was very important to me.

I, that's another place that you can go that is, is there waiting for you.

It's called the Bucktown village store and it's at 4303 Bucktown

road in Bucktown, Maryland.

Easy.

You just really got to remember one

word.

Bucktown

Bucktown, because it's like Bucktown Village Store,

Bucktown Road, Bucktown, Maryland.

So this is the store.

It's really at the end of the road from where the Brodess

plantation was, where her marker

about a mile from the

So it's very easy to find.

It's at the T in the road.

It's the store right at the end of the T.

And it's a little yellow store.

She was there in 1835.

And she was, who knows, I think she was there, probably buying or purchasing

things for her, for the for her.

enslaver and another boy had run away from his plantation and his

overseer had come into the store to get him, to catch him basically.

And he was trying to grab this boy and he threw a two pound weight at

the boy to hit him with the two pound weight and it ended up missing the

boy but hitting Harriet in the head.

Now a two pound weight, They use these kinds of weights and measures on the

table when you're buying things, because you're going to buy two pounds of

flour or two

they actually, in the visitor center, they show you an example.

And it's, it's a good size.

It's, think of one of those skinny Coke cans,

the little small ones about that

solid

solid I mean, it's two pounds in that, in a tiny little size.

You, if you're throwing that at someone, it's going to do damage.

So when you're like, well, how did he have a two pound weights?

Because that's how they, if you're buying two pounds of flour, two pounds

of sugar, they'll put that on one side of the weight like a measure.

And then they put the, whatever you're buying on the other side.

So, you have bought two pounds.

So that's what he grabs off the counter to fling at this.

This kid, like how terrible that fling this two pound weight, this kid misses

the kid hits Harriet right in the head and it busts her skull and she's bleeding

and they take her back to the plantation.

They basically have to carry her back.

She lays in a bed for two days and eventually they just

start making her work again.

But it's that moment that she starts to.

have visions of God, like that's when she starts to hear

God speaking directly to her.

And, you can call it what you will, whatever's happening.

She is having seizures now start happening to her as well.

But this is what really inspires her to start this whole freedom

campaign and to really feel, I guess, empowered to do all of these

things she's going to do in her life.

She is more than just an underground railroad conductor.

She's going to be a spy for the civil war.

She's going to become a nurse.

She's going to lead a military militia during the Civil War.

And her belief in herself to accomplish all these things is because she believes

the Lord is speaking directly to her.

So I think that's just so phenomenal.

And to be at that store on that porch where that happened to her.

is, is just really amazing and powerful for this heroine of American history.

So it's there for you.

If you want to go, those places for, for us were very important to visit.

So the visitor center, the marker, and then the store.

Yeah, and it was amazing to me One of the things in, in, in the entryway to

the visitor center is they have a, a small bust of, of Harriet and it, it doesn't

look like too much, but as I was walking on my way out, one of the, the national

park guides, the Rangers said, Hey, what's significant about Harriet Tubman?

About that bust.

I it just looks like a bus.

He's well, it's, it's five feet high.

And that's how tall she was.

They said she was only five feet tall.

So I went over there and standing next to it, right?

And five feet tall is, is not very tall for this woman who did some

incredible things throughout her life.

And I think that was great too for our kids to see that.

So Again, what I appreciate about Harriet Tubman is she's using these

things that really would be a hindrance that we would think in her favor.

And that is why she's such a great spy during the Civil War is

because no one's paying attention to the short, small black woman.

She's like the bottom of the totem pole that people think a knows anything or can

be of any value or to be of any threat.

So.

She's the perfect person to gather information, to lead a scouting party,

to lead the Underground Railroad because she's the one you're not looking for.

She's not even on your radar.

Harry Tubman will, she, She will see her sister sold away from her and she will

see, her enslaver dies and then she's kind of she's She's sold away The woman becomes

the owner of the plantation and she can't afford to make ends meet So she starts

to sell her enslaved because they're

which is some of harriet's

yeah resources, right?

And so so Harriet's done She's like I'm done with this.

That's it.

And she just walks basically just walks away one day I think that's

And she just sings this song and she walks away and she takes her brothers with her.

And they put out an ad for her in the paper.

This is 1849.

So this is right before the Fugitive Slave Act comes out.

And the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 really starts to separate the country because

it becomes a law that if you don't.

You might not be an enslaver in, in the northern states or even in the

southern states, if you don't help catch runaway slaves or you do anything to

hinder the capture of runaway slaves, you could help be held liable by

the law, which means they could take your property and put you in jail.

And so people get very mad about that.

Like, how can you put that onus on me if it's not something that I agree with?

a horrible law.

Why should I?

So this is when people really dig in their heels and the Underground

Railroad really gets more solidified.

So what is the Underground Railroad?

I think I tried to explain it in the video, but I don't

do a very good job of it.

So this Underground Railroad is basically a underground network of

people who help enslaved And it starts pretty early, I'd say about 1830.

And probably even before that, but it gets more solidified in 1850,

where it really is a network, and it's not underground, but it's

underground because you can't see it.

Like railroad tracks, you can see.

This you can't see.

People just know it.

People who conduct themselves know where these safe haven houses are.

Or these places that you can hide out and so they can know

the routes to get to them.

And I've talked before, there was an underground railroad stop in Memphis,

and it's, it's identifier was two trees that don't lose their leaves.

And so they had two big magnolia trees in their front yard and

magnolias don't lose their leaves.

And so even through the winter, they would have these two trees.

So that would be a way to identify that house for the

Underground Railroad in Memphis.

Plus, they're on the outskirts of Memphis and they were livestock stock owners.

So lots of smells coming from the area would keep people away.

So that was a perfect stop for the Underground Railroad.

Most of the time, Underground Railroad would also have, think of Anne Frank

hiding away during the Holocaust, hidden bookcases, hidden basements,

hidden rooms where you, if somebody was to come and say, I saw black,

black enslaved running by here.

Can we search your house?

Sure.

Because you have them hidden away in a secret room.

And so that was also very well known with the underground railroad was these secret

rooms and places that people could be in the house and collect resources, rests.

As they make their way, and most ens slaves are making their

way into the Northern states.

But with the Fugitive Slave Act, it didn't stop enslavers from coming

for you in those northern states.

So some of them went even further on into

Yeah, and I thought it was, it was neat, again, the Visitor

Center does a really good job of kind of showing the whole.

Span of early Harriet Tubman through the civil war and the underground railroad.

And then.

After the Civil War, it in a bit of her, her later life.

But showing the maps, and some of the, the known paths of the Underground

Railroad were, were pretty expansive, and going to the big cities and then, then

making a little bit more of a beeline for, for North up into, up into Canada.

It says here that she she escaped for the

first time, September 17th, 1849.

If she's born 1822, she's 27 years old when she's making her first escape.

And then she comes back a couple more times to get the rest of

her family 70 members in all.

And because she knows that area so well, she's able to come back and

get them and get her family members because that's the, that's the tie.

That's the tether to the area in to freedom.

But then when the civil war breaks out.

And she's going further down into the south to help get enslaved out

of their predicaments and their enslavements in the southern states.

During the

Yeah.

much further south

much further south of Maryland, and that's when she works with the military

And that's when she starts to become a spy because she's given this pass that

kind of gets her to move between the north and the south lines Because she

can portray someone who isn't who isn't

Yeah, that's how she passes.

and that's how she's passing She's passing back and forth between

these lines and she's able to get people through and again Nobody's Noticing her

she, she's five feet tall, she's female and back then she's,

she's African American, so she's all the things that a soldier would

basically

immediately

dismiss.

So from 1851 to 1862, she returned repeatedly to Maryland.

Again, rescuing some 70 slaves in about 13 different expeditions.

And I thought one of the things that was was really interesting was when

she led that military, I don't know, was an expedition or kind of mission and,

I mean, they, they set free hundreds of people and, dismantled Confederate

this, that, and the other, and, took down some plantations, I mean, she helped

lead a pretty serious military effort.

Yeah.

So that was in 1863 and it's called the Combahee River Raid.

So she used her knowledge of covert travel around the port

royal area of South Carolina, and she was down in that area and.

She guided three steamboats with black soldiers under Montgomery's

command past the mines on the Combahee River to assault several plantations.

Once ashore, the Union troops set fire to the plantations,

destroying their infrastructure.

And forewarned by the raid by Tetman's spy network, enslaved people throughout

the area heard the steamboat whistles and understood they were being liberated.

So she had gone, she had made sure they knew what was going

to happen before it happened.

And then she came down there and led these men of the, I think it

was the 15th South Carolina and then to show them where to go.

And then she helped liberate those people out of there.

So she watched as those fleeing slavery stampeded towards the boats.

She later disguised the scene as some barrages.

kind of chaos.

But as the confederate troops erased the scene that the steamboats took off

with more than 750 formerly enslaved

That's amazing.

It's amazing.

What she did was really

groundbreaking.

And more than a hundred of those newly free men, black

men, joined the Union Army.

Yeah, I saw that.

Yeah, yeah, you, you mentioned that.

I don't know if that made the, the video cut, but you said that,

I mean, they, they escaped, and then they joined right back up to

joined way back up to fight.

So this is mid war, right?

This is June, 1863.

And reports of her involvement in the raid led to people calling her General Tubman.

Oh,

And I think John Brown had called her that previously.

So people joined in on that, but she's widely regarded as

the first woman to lead U.

S.

troops in an armed assault.

And that, for me, was pretty just monumentous and important.

That's why we left the flag there for her, because what she did for

American military, but also in American history, she really was

a groundbreaking, changing woman.

And

think it should be celebrated.

thought it was so neat, too, that she's born in 1822, died in Yes.

And that's quite a, we've talked about a couple of historical figures that have

been born in that similar era, and talk about a period of true drastic change

over the course of 90 years, right?

Think about after the turn of the century, right?

We're, we're looking at world's fairs now and we're looking at

the, she was at the, the front end of the suffrage movement, right?

When she was in her much later years, it was pretty, I mean, think

about where she came from and as she passed where the country was.

Yeah.

I mean she really did.

take her agency upon herself and change her life.

And in the interim she changed anyone's life.

She really came in contact with as well.

I mean, I really do think she is a Renaissance woman.

She did what needed to be done in pretty much every instance.

She conducted an underground railroad that needs to be done.

Spy for the civil war that needs to be done.

She led a militia because that's what needed to be done.

And And we know her at Fort Monroe nursing soldiers soldiers and

formerly enslaved that were there because it needed to be done.

And then when she gets, she eventually will end up in upstate New York and

she is part of the suffrage movement because that is the area where the

suffrage movement really gets a hold and it's what needs to be done.

So she starts, giving talks and giving her experience.

They're putting the face behind an African American woman as

part of the suffrage movement.

So I just feel like to go where it all started and to be there and

to be in the space, which is very important to us, and to, to honor

her and it just was an amazing place to visit for Walk with History.

I think it's an important place to, to go to and I just think she's a

woman that deserves to be celebrated.

she's a woman that deserves to be celebrated.

We, we made a specific effort to drive almost four hours to

get there and it was worth every minute It was absolutely worth it.

Even if this isn't your kind of typical foray into what you're doing

on the weekends, I would recommend this to someone because it really

was powerful kind of learning about her story and learning about Where

she came from, what she did, and the impact that she had, had on history.

Well folks, that brings us to the end of our journey through the

life and legacy of Harriet Tubman.

I hope you found it as inspiring as we Standing in Harriet's birthplace and

exploring the museum truly emphasized the incredible strength and bravery it took

for her to fight for freedom, not just for herself, but for countless others.

Her story is a powerful reminder that even in the face of immense

adversity, A human spirit can persevere.

If you'd like to learn more about Harriet Tubman and the Underground

Railroad, we've included some resources in the show notes for this episode.

Thank you for joining us on Talk With History.

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Thank you.