1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,869 If your company has ever been sued, you know, just how difficult 2 00:00:03,869 --> 00:00:08,189 it is to satisfy an electronic discovery request from backups. 3 00:00:08,489 --> 00:00:12,479 Extracting emails and other data from backups can take months. 4 00:00:12,779 --> 00:00:16,289 Even if you have the resources and relevant skills to pull it off. 5 00:00:17,468 --> 00:00:21,338 Today, we talked to a company that makes doing this as simple as a handshake 6 00:00:21,548 --> 00:00:25,748 while also providing a defensible audit record for your lawyers. 7 00:00:26,258 --> 00:00:31,268 We're talking with Brendan Sullivan, CEO and founder of Sullivan Strickler who has 8 00:00:31,268 --> 00:00:33,968 over 30 years of expertise in storage. 9 00:00:34,568 --> 00:00:38,198 Learn about the challenges companies face when using legacy 10 00:00:38,198 --> 00:00:40,058 and backup data for e-discovery. 11 00:00:40,478 --> 00:00:45,578 The importance of defensibility and the legal process and how purpose-built 12 00:00:45,578 --> 00:00:47,438 software can make all the difference. 13 00:00:47,494 --> 00:00:51,664 By the way, if you don't know who I am, I'm w Curtis Preston, AKA Mr. 14 00:00:51,664 --> 00:00:55,114 Backup, and I've been passionate about backup and recovery and 15 00:00:55,114 --> 00:00:57,484 related topics for over 30 years. 16 00:00:57,514 --> 00:01:00,034 Uh, ever since I had to tell my boss. 17 00:01:00,574 --> 00:01:04,234 That we had no backups of the database that we had just lost. 18 00:01:04,654 --> 00:01:06,694 I don't want that to ever happen to you. 19 00:01:06,874 --> 00:01:09,004 And that's why I do this podcast. 20 00:01:09,484 --> 00:01:12,694 On this podcast, we turn unappreciated backup admins 21 00:01:12,694 --> 00:01:14,494 and to cyber recovery heroes. 22 00:01:14,794 --> 00:01:16,864 This is the backup wrap-up. 23 00:01:30,229 --> 00:01:31,219 W. Curtis Preston: Welcome to the show. 24 00:01:31,954 --> 00:01:34,714 I'm your host, w Curtis Preston, AKA, Mr. 25 00:01:34,714 --> 00:01:39,714 Backup, and then with me, I have my emotional support consultant 26 00:01:39,954 --> 00:01:41,484 as they were working on my baby. 27 00:01:41,584 --> 00:01:44,704 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Your, your emotional support consultant? 28 00:01:44,949 --> 00:01:48,579 W. Curtis Preston: I literally was sitting right here and I had my ring 29 00:01:48,579 --> 00:01:57,489 camera pointed directly on the other side of this wall at the mobile dent repair. 30 00:01:57,789 --> 00:02:04,329 Individual who was doing work on my, uh, Tesla model three, for those of 31 00:02:04,329 --> 00:02:11,289 you that follow the podcast, you heard, um, a week or two ago that, uh, I had a 32 00:02:11,289 --> 00:02:16,489 little, a little oopsie but you know, the amazing world of the internet. 33 00:02:16,539 --> 00:02:20,979 I went to Yelp and I was like, ah, I gotta find a more, you know, the, and 34 00:02:20,979 --> 00:02:24,639 I, and I just, I did this thing where I, I sent it out to forbid, and then I 35 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:26,349 got, like, immediately I got this quote. 36 00:02:26,349 --> 00:02:27,849 I was like, dude, I'll fix it. 37 00:02:27,909 --> 00:02:28,629 I'll be there. 38 00:02:28,839 --> 00:02:29,859 I'll come to your house. 39 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:30,909 I'll do it there. 40 00:02:31,219 --> 00:02:33,789 He came here and it was really cool. 41 00:02:33,789 --> 00:02:37,059 I could watch and I, I remember I was sh I was sending you pictures as it 42 00:02:37,064 --> 00:02:39,309 was going on and you were like, oh, he is doing this, he's doing that. 43 00:02:39,309 --> 00:02:40,269 He's doing all the right things. 44 00:02:40,929 --> 00:02:41,259 So you were 45 00:02:41,339 --> 00:02:43,169 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Thank you YouTube knowledge. 46 00:02:43,624 --> 00:02:43,914 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 47 00:02:44,384 --> 00:02:44,674 Yeah. 48 00:02:44,709 --> 00:02:48,729 Once again, your, your YouTube knowledge came into, came into being and he 49 00:02:48,734 --> 00:02:50,139 turned it, turned out really well. 50 00:02:50,139 --> 00:02:50,529 Right. 51 00:02:50,699 --> 00:02:52,259 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, no, it was amazing. 52 00:02:52,259 --> 00:02:57,719 And I'm surprised there aren't more mobile body shops, if you will, because if you 53 00:02:57,754 --> 00:03:02,129 had to go to a body shop, you go for an estimate, then you wait, then you gotta 54 00:03:02,129 --> 00:03:05,579 drop the car off, then you gotta figure out how you get to and from the place. 55 00:03:05,909 --> 00:03:07,139 You wait like three days. 56 00:03:07,714 --> 00:03:11,369 Actually, some Teslas you have to wait like months to get repair parts. 57 00:03:11,699 --> 00:03:12,119 Right. 58 00:03:12,149 --> 00:03:12,779 And then. 59 00:03:13,144 --> 00:03:14,494 It's just a hassle. 60 00:03:14,494 --> 00:03:17,704 And so yeah, the fact that there was a mobile guy who came out did 61 00:03:17,704 --> 00:03:20,194 everything, and the work looked amazing. 62 00:03:20,194 --> 00:03:20,674 So 63 00:03:21,684 --> 00:03:23,809 W. Curtis Preston: You were helpful as it was going on. 64 00:03:23,814 --> 00:03:27,499 I was sending photos of what was going on to you and to my wife. 65 00:03:27,829 --> 00:03:28,759 You were helpful. 66 00:03:28,759 --> 00:03:29,569 She was not. 67 00:03:31,159 --> 00:03:31,249 Shoot. 68 00:03:31,674 --> 00:03:33,504 She was like, that looks bad. 69 00:03:33,564 --> 00:03:34,704 That looks bad. 70 00:03:34,704 --> 00:03:36,594 And I'm like, well, of course it looks bad. 71 00:03:36,594 --> 00:03:38,904 It's in the middle of like body work. 72 00:03:39,079 --> 00:03:40,639 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Well, it's like when you're renovating or 73 00:03:40,639 --> 00:03:42,049 remodeling your house, right? 74 00:03:42,049 --> 00:03:44,269 You start off with something, they tear everything down. 75 00:03:44,269 --> 00:03:48,289 It looks awful, and then after they're done, you're like, wow, this is amazing. 76 00:03:49,224 --> 00:03:50,034 W. Curtis Preston: yeah, yeah. 77 00:03:50,034 --> 00:03:53,334 It, it, it looks yeah, like, like nothing ever happened, which is 78 00:03:54,144 --> 00:03:58,774 exactly how you want it to look . So, this is a sponsored episode today. 79 00:03:59,194 --> 00:04:04,534 This might be a first for me because, uh, in addition to being a sponsor, 80 00:04:04,534 --> 00:04:07,984 the person that we're actually bringing on happens to be my boss. 81 00:04:08,344 --> 00:04:09,724 Uh, so there's that. 82 00:04:10,214 --> 00:04:13,574 He has an extensive history in data storage and retrieval. 83 00:04:13,689 --> 00:04:16,359 Spanning over 30 years. 84 00:04:16,669 --> 00:04:19,999 He is an electrical engineer by education with over 20 years of 85 00:04:19,999 --> 00:04:22,309 experience in tape manufacturing. 86 00:04:22,639 --> 00:04:26,299 After that, he spent another 20 years advising companies on what 87 00:04:26,304 --> 00:04:27,919 to do with their legacy data. 88 00:04:28,219 --> 00:04:31,849 He's now the CEO and founder of Sullivan Strickler, which turns 89 00:04:31,849 --> 00:04:34,159 complexity into capability. 90 00:04:34,429 --> 00:04:36,109 Welcome to the podcast, 91 00:04:36,379 --> 00:04:37,434 Brendan Sullivan. 92 00:04:37,724 --> 00:04:38,554 How's it going, Brendan? 93 00:04:39,659 --> 00:04:40,039 Brendan Sullivan: At all. 94 00:04:40,069 --> 00:04:40,839 Welcome guys. 95 00:04:41,004 --> 00:04:41,639 I'm glad to be here. 96 00:04:43,289 --> 00:04:45,609 W. Curtis Preston: Well, welcome, to the pod. 97 00:04:45,999 --> 00:04:48,819 Let's go back to a little bit before the company. 98 00:04:49,269 --> 00:04:51,669 Tell us a little bit about that. 99 00:04:52,089 --> 00:04:55,899 The, the time that you spent in the manufacturing side, like how 100 00:04:55,899 --> 00:04:59,169 you got to, you know, you gained the knowledge that you have now. 101 00:05:00,669 --> 00:05:04,329 Brendan Sullivan: Um, so it's always been storage for me 102 00:05:04,329 --> 00:05:06,129 in some way, shape, or form. 103 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,959 Um, I was, uh, at a company in South Wales that manufactured a. 104 00:05:11,649 --> 00:05:16,479 60 4K static Rams in, uh, 1985. 105 00:05:17,049 --> 00:05:22,659 And, um, from from there, it, the company didn't last tremendously long. 106 00:05:22,869 --> 00:05:27,400 Um, and I took a job, uh, at another company that, um. 107 00:05:29,174 --> 00:05:35,199 I had won a contract to manufacture the first square tape cartridge in Europe, 108 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:40,659 which was the 34 80 tape cartridge, which, uh, obviously is an IBM, uh, 109 00:05:40,689 --> 00:05:43,269 mainframe tape cartridge, 200 megabytes. 110 00:05:43,599 --> 00:05:45,459 And that was in bridge end in South Wales. 111 00:05:45,549 --> 00:05:51,909 Um, so I took that job as a technician and I've been in tape since 1985. 112 00:05:52,089 --> 00:05:52,989 And, uh. 113 00:05:53,589 --> 00:05:58,599 If I last just a few more years, then I can say from start to finish, my career 114 00:05:58,604 --> 00:06:00,459 will be taped in some way, shape, or form. 115 00:06:01,449 --> 00:06:07,689 So yeah, so we made, uh, 34 80, um, developed into 34, not making 34 90 E. 116 00:06:07,689 --> 00:06:09,004 And then also I. 117 00:06:09,444 --> 00:06:12,899 Got involved and manufactured some of the TK 50, TK 52, which became 118 00:06:12,899 --> 00:06:16,559 the first DLT tape cartridge run, metal metal particle coating came 119 00:06:16,559 --> 00:06:21,479 in and, and, uh, we manufactured the first few versions of, uh, DLT also. 120 00:06:22,499 --> 00:06:24,749 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, for many of our listeners, those are all numbers 121 00:06:24,749 --> 00:06:27,793 that just rattle around and they don't mean anything to you, but for me, 122 00:06:27,793 --> 00:06:29,620 I'm thinking oh yeah, I remember. 123 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:33,460 I remember the 34 80 and the TK fifties and it, and I remember. 124 00:06:33,925 --> 00:06:39,115 Then when I first saw DLT cartridge, I was like, oh, this is a, this is a TK 50. 125 00:06:39,295 --> 00:06:43,225 Like, it looks the, you know, it looks physically the same, um, 126 00:06:43,255 --> 00:06:44,935 just, uh, significantly different. 127 00:06:45,145 --> 00:06:48,415 Brendan Sullivan: I can probably tell you the 27 parts that go into a DLT 128 00:06:48,445 --> 00:06:52,195 or went into a DLT tape cartridge and the type of plastic that was 129 00:06:52,195 --> 00:06:53,575 used on the injection molding. 130 00:06:53,635 --> 00:06:56,185 Uh, but, uh, nobody, nobody is interested these days 131 00:06:56,185 --> 00:06:57,210 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Other than Curtis. 132 00:06:57,765 --> 00:07:01,995 Brendan Sullivan: other than Curtis, which is why I hired. 133 00:07:02,295 --> 00:07:02,505 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 134 00:07:02,505 --> 00:07:06,885 You, you were in the business a little bit before me. 135 00:07:07,035 --> 00:07:09,075 Um, just a little bit. 136 00:07:09,525 --> 00:07:10,635 Uh, yeah. 137 00:07:10,785 --> 00:07:16,725 I was cutting my teeth on all of those cartridges as they were. 138 00:07:17,030 --> 00:07:19,010 Like getting out of the industry. 139 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:19,430 Right? 140 00:07:19,490 --> 00:07:23,690 Um, like, 'cause I had nine track tapes and I had the TK fifties and I 141 00:07:23,690 --> 00:07:27,650 had the, the QIC or quick cartridges. 142 00:07:27,710 --> 00:07:32,060 Um, and the, the, the newest thing that we had in our world 143 00:07:32,065 --> 00:07:34,280 were the, the exabyte tapes. 144 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,860 The a, the the eight millimeter tapes. 145 00:07:36,860 --> 00:07:37,220 Right. 146 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,270 Uh, which then began a whole other, whole other world of tapes. 147 00:07:41,780 --> 00:07:47,165 But how did you go from that to the, the consultancy world? 148 00:07:48,470 --> 00:07:52,070 Brendan Sullivan: So, um, I ran a company, um. 149 00:07:53,030 --> 00:07:55,550 That was called EMAG Solutions. 150 00:07:55,730 --> 00:07:58,550 Um, I was the president and CEO for about nine years. 151 00:07:59,090 --> 00:08:03,890 And, uh, what, what became clear in the early part of, uh, that tenure when I 152 00:08:03,895 --> 00:08:09,200 took over, it was still very much a, a manufacturing company, but we were not. 153 00:08:09,890 --> 00:08:14,840 Gonna be making the latest and greatest LTO tape cartridges and 98 forties and 154 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,060 all these kind of tech, uh, technologies. 155 00:08:17,060 --> 00:08:20,240 They were becoming a little bit, they're open technology, but, but 156 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:25,460 in terms of, uh, development of high coercivity, um, particles that, 157 00:08:25,550 --> 00:08:29,540 that, uh, that are required for, for the more modern tape storage. 158 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,970 We, we just didn't have the investment to do that. 159 00:08:31,970 --> 00:08:34,010 So it was really a case of. 160 00:08:34,185 --> 00:08:37,515 What have we learned in terms of tape manufacture, tape 161 00:08:37,515 --> 00:08:41,235 design, um, tape testing? 162 00:08:41,445 --> 00:08:44,415 'cause there's, as a manufacturer, as you can imagine, you're testing the quality. 163 00:08:44,415 --> 00:08:47,895 What have we learned in those areas that can be applied to some kind of 164 00:08:47,895 --> 00:08:49,875 services, uh, in and around them? 165 00:08:50,025 --> 00:08:54,045 And, uh, it was really a case of thinking, you know, what can we do? 166 00:08:54,050 --> 00:08:59,145 And so we, we actually acquired a small company, um, under 167 00:08:59,150 --> 00:09:01,305 my tenure at at, at uh, emag. 168 00:09:01,710 --> 00:09:03,180 Uh, called Intermedia Graphics. 169 00:09:03,210 --> 00:09:10,110 And, um, and they, they'd specialized in, in, um, this, this technique called 170 00:09:10,115 --> 00:09:15,060 non-Native File Restoration, which basically you restore data from somewhere 171 00:09:15,540 --> 00:09:19,740 other than using the software that was originally used to create the data. 172 00:09:20,130 --> 00:09:24,690 So it's, it's code that all, and originally for, for them it was codes 173 00:09:24,690 --> 00:09:28,170 that maybe a Word document that was a, um. 174 00:09:28,515 --> 00:09:31,875 That needed to be read from one system in another system. 175 00:09:32,265 --> 00:09:35,745 And that code, the core files are the same. 176 00:09:35,745 --> 00:09:40,785 The core format, data format is the same, but the way that those files are laid, 177 00:09:41,025 --> 00:09:44,985 laid out on the, the storage medium are different, uh, by the backup software. 178 00:09:44,985 --> 00:09:47,265 And so non-native file restoration is basically a 179 00:09:47,265 --> 00:09:48,915 means to get hold of that data. 180 00:09:49,455 --> 00:09:54,085 So we acquired that small company and applied it to enterprise tape 181 00:09:54,090 --> 00:09:58,345 technology and also, um, middleware kind of tape technology as well. 182 00:09:58,915 --> 00:10:02,815 And, and then the rest was really a little bit of luck in that, uh, 183 00:10:02,935 --> 00:10:08,245 business was not tremendous, um, because it, it was hard to get that, 184 00:10:08,365 --> 00:10:10,525 the knowledge of that technology out. 185 00:10:11,035 --> 00:10:15,685 But we had a little bit of luck around the 2001 and to 2003 186 00:10:16,315 --> 00:10:18,685 timeframe where, where eDiscovery. 187 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,940 Was starting to gain a foothold, uh, in the market. 188 00:10:22,510 --> 00:10:25,870 And, uh, the ability, you know, the producing data, for use 189 00:10:25,870 --> 00:10:27,220 of evidence in a court of law. 190 00:10:27,340 --> 00:10:33,380 Um, and when it, when the data came from backup tapes, there wasn't that 191 00:10:33,380 --> 00:10:35,210 many companies that were able to do it. 192 00:10:35,330 --> 00:10:39,800 So we were asked on some of the big cases, you know, like, uh, Enron case 193 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,910 and, and uh, some other cases we were asked, can we get hold of this data? 194 00:10:43,970 --> 00:10:46,040 And that led. 195 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,160 Our software developers to develop techniques to be able 196 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,640 to restore and extract and perfect and improve our software. 197 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,520 And, uh, by around about 2002, 2003, we were thinking, okay, 198 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,530 this is, this is our future. 199 00:11:00,740 --> 00:11:05,000 Let's, uh, it was just growing at a, at, at a, at a rapid rate at that time. 200 00:11:05,060 --> 00:11:06,860 So that's really how we got into services. 201 00:11:08,165 --> 00:11:12,275 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So one question, Brendan, is, I know most people who 202 00:11:12,275 --> 00:11:15,425 might be listening to this podcast, they're probably like, oh, but you 203 00:11:15,425 --> 00:11:19,415 have, at least in today's world, right, you have normal file servers 204 00:11:19,415 --> 00:11:24,875 where you have SMB or you have NFS, and then you have object store, right? 205 00:11:24,875 --> 00:11:28,985 And they're all pretty standard, open, interoperable formats. 206 00:11:29,255 --> 00:11:30,695 Could you go a little into that? 207 00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:35,660 Why this was such a problem in the backup space when you started this or 208 00:11:35,660 --> 00:11:37,130 when you started seeing this problem? 209 00:11:38,555 --> 00:11:43,805 Brendan Sullivan: So I'll talk generally about legacy data and um, and this is 210 00:11:43,805 --> 00:11:46,025 really how the, over the last 20 years. 211 00:11:46,490 --> 00:11:53,720 Um, things have evolved in that, uh, the data center typically is pushed and asked, 212 00:11:53,810 --> 00:11:56,000 and Curtis knows it's only too well. 213 00:11:56,450 --> 00:11:58,460 Um, I have more data. 214 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,110 I would like to back it up faster. 215 00:12:00,290 --> 00:12:01,730 You have a backup window. 216 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,910 That backup window is shrinking and, um, and, you know, give me my service back. 217 00:12:08,330 --> 00:12:12,950 So the backup software companies and the hardware companies, um. 218 00:12:13,235 --> 00:12:17,375 We're tasked with figuring out how to move larger amounts of data from 219 00:12:17,375 --> 00:12:23,855 different, uh, servers, um, to back, uh, back them up as quickly as they could. 220 00:12:23,855 --> 00:12:29,135 And, and over time came things like, uh, multiplexing, multithreading, 221 00:12:29,705 --> 00:12:36,305 striping, spanning, um, NAS backups, NDMP, nas filers, et cetera, et cetera. 222 00:12:36,725 --> 00:12:38,855 And, um, and that's all good. 223 00:12:38,855 --> 00:12:41,945 You can back up data faster and more efficiently. 224 00:12:42,650 --> 00:12:46,970 But of course what you're doing with that is, is you are making the, or you 225 00:12:46,970 --> 00:12:52,100 are putting the data into a storage medium in a, in a more proprietary way. 226 00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:58,910 Um, and, uh, that's fine as long as you are going to be doing the restoring. 227 00:12:59,390 --> 00:13:05,330 But then when the company, uh, 10 years later decides that it's gonna back up 228 00:13:05,330 --> 00:13:08,510 to the cloud or decides that it's gonna back up in a different way, or they, 229 00:13:08,570 --> 00:13:10,400 or they, maybe they get acquired and. 230 00:13:11,105 --> 00:13:14,615 No longer, they no longer have the legato network or expert. 231 00:13:14,615 --> 00:13:17,885 Now they have a Veritas expert or a a Commvault expert. 232 00:13:18,395 --> 00:13:25,595 And over time you lose the ability to, to be able to restore that data and, um. 233 00:13:26,375 --> 00:13:31,745 It's not always a problem, but what's also evolved in the industry is 234 00:13:31,745 --> 00:13:38,735 that data has become more and more used, uh, for evidence in to prove 235 00:13:38,735 --> 00:13:45,280 out legal cases and, um, privacy requirements, uh, meaning evermore. 236 00:13:46,490 --> 00:13:51,650 Uh, complex, uh, challenging ways in which data has to be retained, 237 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:54,680 preserved, um, and produced. 238 00:13:54,830 --> 00:14:01,910 And so the data center infrastructure is set up, let's say in 2010 for one system 239 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:08,720 that's no longer serves its purpose in 2020, except the data must be kept. 240 00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:12,140 And, uh, as long as that scenario. 241 00:14:12,575 --> 00:14:14,555 Um, carries on. 242 00:14:14,585 --> 00:14:18,845 There will be space for companies like ours that, uh, we're 243 00:14:18,905 --> 00:14:20,285 keepers of lost knowledge. 244 00:14:20,375 --> 00:14:27,065 Um, we, we we're able to go back into five year, 10 year, 15, 20, 25 years and, 245 00:14:27,065 --> 00:14:31,595 and produce data that, that, uh, might be required for compliance or regulation 246 00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:35,195 or remediation or for business use. 247 00:14:35,285 --> 00:14:38,345 Um, but largely litigation is, is a driver. 248 00:14:38,645 --> 00:14:41,315 And, um, so it, it's, um. 249 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:47,245 It's, it's today's modern is tomorrow's legacy, and that's not. 250 00:14:48,605 --> 00:14:48,875 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 251 00:14:50,135 --> 00:14:53,375 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, there, there's two things that, that I got out of there. 252 00:14:53,585 --> 00:15:00,270 Uh, Brendan one is, and there was one that has come to my mind. 253 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:07,440 The more I work with, um, your company is that I built my own career in 254 00:15:07,530 --> 00:15:12,810 doing consulting, helping people to basically redesign their backup system. 255 00:15:12,815 --> 00:15:16,595 You found that there's a lot of technologies that sort of come and 256 00:15:16,595 --> 00:15:19,385 go and then people lose their, you know, that, like you said, that 257 00:15:19,565 --> 00:15:21,335 they lose their networker person. 258 00:15:21,875 --> 00:15:26,045 What I found was even when they had a networker person, there was. 259 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:32,820 There was something about backup and, and especially tape, that it, so much of it 260 00:15:32,820 --> 00:15:36,430 was counterintuitive that even if they had a networker person or a NetBackup 261 00:15:36,450 --> 00:15:43,470 person, the design wasn't in keeping with how the, how, how it should be designed. 262 00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:43,770 Right. 263 00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:46,440 And so there was plenty of money to be made in helping people 264 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:47,640 figure out how to back up. 265 00:15:48,090 --> 00:15:48,450 Right. 266 00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:54,570 What, it never really occurred to me until working, um, with you, was that. 267 00:15:55,520 --> 00:16:00,610 Just like there are very few people that are really good at doing backups. 268 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,270 There's an even smaller group of people that are really good at doing 269 00:16:04,270 --> 00:16:10,510 restores the one thing about backup is that most people do it every day. 270 00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:14,890 You know, if they, if they have a, a backup system, they're, they're 271 00:16:14,890 --> 00:16:16,060 constantly working on their. 272 00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:17,310 Backups, right? 273 00:16:17,310 --> 00:16:19,140 They're working, you know, they've got a backup window. 274 00:16:19,140 --> 00:16:21,150 They've gotta do backup certain, certain time. 275 00:16:21,390 --> 00:16:24,750 They've gotta get 'em done in a certain si, you know, in a certain time. 276 00:16:25,170 --> 00:16:27,720 And there's a new server and we gotta configure this. 277 00:16:27,725 --> 00:16:29,940 So you get really good at that and you say, well, when's the 278 00:16:29,940 --> 00:16:31,500 last time you did a restore? 279 00:16:31,890 --> 00:16:37,080 Well, we restored this one file a month ago, uh, you know, as a test, 280 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,490 or maybe we do a restore of a, of, of a small file now and then to test. 281 00:16:41,820 --> 00:16:45,810 But no one tests the kind of restores that. 282 00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:47,980 Um, that your team is doing, 283 00:16:48,295 --> 00:16:51,655 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And to go along with that, Curtis, it's those restore 284 00:16:51,655 --> 00:16:56,845 tests that the backup person is doing is for operational recoveries, right? 285 00:16:56,850 --> 00:16:58,945 Like, Hey, I blew away a file or something. 286 00:16:58,945 --> 00:17:03,025 It's not for, I need a satisfying e-discovery request, which cha its own 287 00:17:03,025 --> 00:17:04,585 set of requirements that go along with it. 288 00:17:05,330 --> 00:17:05,570 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 289 00:17:05,570 --> 00:17:07,520 Which is the other, the other thing, right? 290 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,110 So one is people just in general aren't good at doing restores, right? 291 00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:16,670 And the, the second is that, you know, you talked about 292 00:17:16,670 --> 00:17:18,500 all these proprietary formats. 293 00:17:19,310 --> 00:17:23,000 All of them have one thing in common, and that's that none of them were 294 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,100 designed for eDiscovery, right? 295 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,630 This is why when you and I first started talking. 296 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,410 I remember saying something to you of like, you do realize that I've spent 297 00:17:31,410 --> 00:17:35,880 my entire career trying to talk people out of doing the thing that makes them 298 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,460 end up needing your services, right? 299 00:17:38,610 --> 00:17:42,180 Like, please don't use your backup software as your archive 300 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:45,300 software, but no one listens to me. 301 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,970 Uh, you know, because the vast majority of the industry just uses 302 00:17:50,970 --> 00:17:55,470 their backup system and hopes they never need, uh, to do an e-discovery. 303 00:17:55,470 --> 00:17:56,490 Brendan Sullivan: You are exactly right. 304 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,820 There's, you know, I, I often, uh, say there's, there's really 305 00:17:59,825 --> 00:18:02,310 two reasons for our existence. 306 00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:07,560 And, uh, the, the, the first one is that, is that the 307 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,675 requirement to keep the data, uh. 308 00:18:10,875 --> 00:18:15,435 Lasts longer than the requirement to keep the infrastructure that 309 00:18:15,435 --> 00:18:16,905 you use to create the data. 310 00:18:17,595 --> 00:18:19,245 That's that's point number one. 311 00:18:19,815 --> 00:18:24,915 And then point number two, the requirements to produce that data. 312 00:18:26,565 --> 00:18:31,545 More complex and more involved than were envision envisioned at 313 00:18:31,545 --> 00:18:33,675 the time that data was created. 314 00:18:33,885 --> 00:18:35,805 And of course, that's eDiscovery litigation, 315 00:18:35,805 --> 00:18:37,605 compliance, regulatory reasons. 316 00:18:37,875 --> 00:18:41,170 I mean, if you look at, now you know this last I. 317 00:18:41,170 --> 00:18:44,755 Three, four years, uh, data privacy regulations that are, that are, 318 00:18:44,935 --> 00:18:49,705 uh, taking hold, GDPR and uh, CCPA and, and, and many others. 319 00:18:50,275 --> 00:18:54,655 Um, there are provisions that are, uh, being stipulated. 320 00:18:54,655 --> 00:18:57,655 Things like the right to be forgotten, you know, if you've collected 321 00:18:57,660 --> 00:19:00,805 personal data, then you have a right. 322 00:19:00,825 --> 00:19:01,875 To be forgotten. 323 00:19:01,875 --> 00:19:06,345 So you leave the company, the company has your personal data. 324 00:19:06,435 --> 00:19:11,205 That might not be data that is allowed, uh, or, or they're allowed to have 325 00:19:11,205 --> 00:19:14,805 in the public domain and that, so you say, okay, well I'm no longer there. 326 00:19:14,805 --> 00:19:15,705 Can you remove it? 327 00:19:16,245 --> 00:19:22,035 Now, if these are in backups or archives, that's a major challenge, especially if 328 00:19:22,035 --> 00:19:25,125 you no longer have the infrastructure around that was used to create it. 329 00:19:25,125 --> 00:19:25,815 So now. 330 00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:31,260 There's a whole remediation requirement, the ability to delete on demand, 331 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,610 uh, from data that is pre-populated with data that you must keep. 332 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,340 So, um, it, it's, it's actually getting more complex, not less complex, and, 333 00:19:41,345 --> 00:19:43,410 uh, which is, which is great for us. 334 00:19:43,470 --> 00:19:46,560 You know, this is, this is, this is how we want them, the market to evolve. 335 00:19:48,315 --> 00:19:50,175 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, it was the same thing that happened to me, you 336 00:19:50,175 --> 00:19:53,595 know, years ago when basically tape drive just kept getting faster and 337 00:19:53,595 --> 00:19:59,715 faster and, um, which just made my, my side of the world worse, right? 338 00:19:59,715 --> 00:20:02,445 The 'cause, the, the problem as I saw it for. 339 00:20:03,330 --> 00:20:08,160 20 years was that tape drives had gotten too fast for the backup. 340 00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:08,760 Right. 341 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:12,150 And the, and the, the backup can only run at one speed and the tape drive can 342 00:20:12,150 --> 00:20:15,720 only run at run speed and the speeds aren't anywhere near the, the same speed. 343 00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:16,230 Right. 344 00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:19,980 That's how we, that's how we invented multiplexing and, you know, uh, 345 00:20:20,010 --> 00:20:24,540 but the problem was that everybody always saw it as the opposite. 346 00:20:24,540 --> 00:20:26,400 They're like, oh, the tape drives are slow. 347 00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:29,190 And so I'm going to, um. 348 00:20:29,580 --> 00:20:31,650 You know, I'm gonna buy more tape drives. 349 00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:33,150 And I was always like, no. 350 00:20:33,150 --> 00:20:33,480 Right. 351 00:20:33,690 --> 00:20:36,780 But the faster tape drives got, the better it was for me because 352 00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:38,460 the worse the backup systems were. 353 00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:42,330 Um, and I just look better and better by, by fixing all those. 354 00:20:42,330 --> 00:20:42,630 Right. 355 00:20:43,390 --> 00:20:46,420 So you've talked about e-discovery. 356 00:20:46,750 --> 00:20:48,700 What does that look like how does somebody. 357 00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:54,165 Decide they need your kind of services versus whatever the alternatives might be. 358 00:20:54,165 --> 00:21:00,135 Brendan Sullivan: I would say the vast majority of clients or prospects 359 00:21:00,615 --> 00:21:06,825 that are required to produce data from backup systems, are not aware. 360 00:21:07,770 --> 00:21:14,280 The type of technologies that we've developed, um, in the industry so, so 361 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,230 often when we get on a scoping call. 362 00:21:17,175 --> 00:21:20,445 Um, you know, it might, let's just say hypothetically it might be a 363 00:21:20,445 --> 00:21:24,135 NetBackup environment, and they might have to produce emails or messages 364 00:21:24,255 --> 00:21:27,135 from an email archiving platform or something that's been managed 365 00:21:27,495 --> 00:21:29,235 through NetBackup or backup exec. 366 00:21:29,235 --> 00:21:33,675 And the conversations go, you know, and, uh, okay, so how are you gonna do this? 367 00:21:34,185 --> 00:21:38,595 And, uh, it, the, the, the, and the thought process is, you know, do 368 00:21:38,595 --> 00:21:40,005 we know what sessions there are? 369 00:21:40,005 --> 00:21:41,925 Have you, will you do phase one imports? 370 00:21:41,925 --> 00:21:43,305 Will you do phase two imports? 371 00:21:43,305 --> 00:21:49,920 And we go, no, no, we don't use NetBackup we use our own software and uh, they 372 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,080 say, well, how are you gonna restore the data if you don't have NetBackup? 373 00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:57,300 And so there's always a, um, and we'll say, we do, you know, we don't need 374 00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:02,970 it because we basically trick the tape cartridge into thinking it's talking to 375 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,430 something like a, a NetBackup environment. 376 00:22:05,435 --> 00:22:08,190 And therefore we can do all sorts of things with this data. 377 00:22:08,190 --> 00:22:12,960 We don't necessarily need the tapes in sequence like the native software does. 378 00:22:13,050 --> 00:22:13,770 Um, we don't. 379 00:22:14,295 --> 00:22:18,405 Necessarily need to go through everything systematically to get the 380 00:22:18,405 --> 00:22:22,875 complete session restored, and this is what you have to do in eDiscovery. 381 00:22:22,875 --> 00:22:27,975 You have to go, the whole objective here is to cast the net wide. 382 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:33,510 Um, capture everything, um, that is relevant for the potential case and 383 00:22:33,510 --> 00:22:38,280 ignore as much as you can that isn't, so you're not collecting too much data and 384 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,020 just go straight for the specific files. 385 00:22:40,020 --> 00:22:45,660 And that, that, that leaves an ideal environment, um, for the lawyers 386 00:22:45,660 --> 00:22:50,820 to be, uh, you know, somebody that can find, pinpoint, and restore 387 00:22:50,820 --> 00:22:55,200 as little as possible, but restore exactly what is required and then 388 00:22:55,205 --> 00:22:57,210 produce that data in a defensible way. 389 00:22:57,690 --> 00:23:02,640 Preserving all metadata as you do it, and then reviewing and analyzing and, and 390 00:23:02,790 --> 00:23:04,560 and producing through, through that case. 391 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,780 So that for us, what we've, what we've done is we've built our own software. 392 00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:16,200 So we have, uh, a piece of software that we, that is fundamentally two points. 393 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,200 One is that it, it'll drive the devices. 394 00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:21,945 So it's kinda like all the SCSI mechanisms and, and, and 395 00:23:21,950 --> 00:23:23,160 what have you, all the buffers. 396 00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:30,930 Um, and then the rest is we, our coders create handlers that allow us to restore. 397 00:23:31,515 --> 00:23:33,075 All sorts of different backup softwares. 398 00:23:33,105 --> 00:23:37,155 So whether it be NetBackup, backup exec, Commvault, Tivoli, legato, 399 00:23:37,575 --> 00:23:38,985 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 400 00:23:39,015 --> 00:23:40,725 It's the same piece of software. 401 00:23:41,265 --> 00:23:47,415 And, um, what, and then, then the key skills that get added to that are, you 402 00:23:47,415 --> 00:23:50,685 know, we might not need the whole session, we might not need the whole thread. 403 00:23:50,835 --> 00:23:55,395 Um, so then it's a case of what, what do you need to learn about the backup 404 00:23:55,395 --> 00:23:59,835 environment and what's the most cost, effective, efficient, fastest way to 405 00:23:59,835 --> 00:24:01,395 go about learning in that environment? 406 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:07,065 And that's, that's really the, um, the features and benefits of our tool that, 407 00:24:07,065 --> 00:24:13,215 uh, that allow us to be that early part of an eDiscovery process before the data gets 408 00:24:13,215 --> 00:24:19,125 loaded into a platform where the lawyers or the paralegals can review it and decide 409 00:24:19,125 --> 00:24:20,955 that it's, it's relevant for the case. 410 00:24:20,955 --> 00:24:24,370 Prasanna Malaiyandi: And if you compare, and I don't know if you have numbers 411 00:24:24,375 --> 00:24:30,250 around this, but like doing the normal way that a backup person who was say, 412 00:24:30,250 --> 00:24:35,050 using NetBackup and would've had to go through in terms of restoring each of the 413 00:24:35,050 --> 00:24:40,330 sessions to a location, doing everything, using NetBackup versus using the software 414 00:24:40,330 --> 00:24:45,670 that you guys have created, what sort of like efficiency gains are there to 415 00:24:45,670 --> 00:24:50,410 be had by going with what you do versus like what a person would normally have 416 00:24:50,410 --> 00:24:54,520 to do for a relatively large environment to handle that eDiscovery case. 417 00:24:54,930 --> 00:24:59,040 Brendan Sullivan: Well, the, the first and most obvious one is that 418 00:24:59,070 --> 00:25:03,150 we work off backups, whether or not, not whether or not that be 419 00:25:03,150 --> 00:25:05,100 a disc backup or a tape backup. 420 00:25:05,310 --> 00:25:09,090 We work off backups, which means that the data center folks. 421 00:25:09,675 --> 00:25:12,615 Don't have to change their lives at all. 422 00:25:13,125 --> 00:25:16,185 And, um, so that's a huge efficiency. 423 00:25:16,275 --> 00:25:20,835 Um, hand us the data, we'll take it from here, um, that that's a, 424 00:25:20,835 --> 00:25:23,025 an order of magnitude advantage. 425 00:25:23,115 --> 00:25:30,045 Um, and, and also it's, it's being used to, um, the legal world. 426 00:25:30,225 --> 00:25:33,375 Um, you know, they have, they have, it's all about defensibility, 427 00:25:33,435 --> 00:25:34,875 all about audit trails. 428 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,660 All about response time, availability, project management. 429 00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:44,250 Um, once you, you know, once you've been through your first a hundred projects 430 00:25:44,250 --> 00:25:47,430 like that, you really get to know the kind of things that they ask for. 431 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,020 And that's, that's a big factor. 432 00:25:49,230 --> 00:25:51,300 So a company that's going through litigation for the 433 00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:52,620 first time or second time. 434 00:25:53,355 --> 00:25:55,425 That's a big education they've got to go through. 435 00:25:55,425 --> 00:25:58,485 So we deal with the, we deal with the backups and therefore we don't 436 00:25:58,485 --> 00:26:00,405 interfere with, with normal operation. 437 00:26:01,215 --> 00:26:04,785 The, the second thing is that the infrastructure that data 438 00:26:04,785 --> 00:26:10,035 centers are often, um, often have, are built for purpose. 439 00:26:10,125 --> 00:26:14,355 They have a certain amount of data they're backing up, they have certain processes, 440 00:26:14,685 --> 00:26:21,390 and if you are going to have to succumb certain amounts of that infrastructure, 441 00:26:21,690 --> 00:26:24,390 it's going to interfere with your normal. 442 00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:26,790 Yeah, something's gotta give. 443 00:26:27,450 --> 00:26:31,830 And then the third thing is, um, it's defensibility. 444 00:26:32,220 --> 00:26:36,720 Um, you know, if, if you are in a legal situation and you're getting 445 00:26:36,725 --> 00:26:40,800 accused of something, and you might ultimately have to testify in a 446 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,690 court of law as to what you did. 447 00:26:43,005 --> 00:26:45,645 What you produced and how you produced it. 448 00:26:46,215 --> 00:26:50,865 There's a, a much better defensibility from a third party company like 449 00:26:50,865 --> 00:26:53,295 ours than one of your employees. 450 00:26:53,535 --> 00:26:57,885 Um, that, you know, could, could potentially be argued by opposing 451 00:26:57,890 --> 00:27:01,815 counsel that, oh, well how do we know that you had an interest in finding, 452 00:27:02,265 --> 00:27:03,375 you know, what we're looking for? 453 00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:04,410 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah. 454 00:27:04,485 --> 00:27:08,055 Brendan Sullivan: So those, those three things make it, make it ideal, 455 00:27:08,055 --> 00:27:12,615 really, and, and smart to, uh, pick out a third party rather than, um, 456 00:27:12,945 --> 00:27:14,295 rather than actually do it yourself. 457 00:27:15,205 --> 00:27:16,525 W. Curtis Preston: I think your answer was great. 458 00:27:16,675 --> 00:27:20,540 Um, the, I think the question the Prasanna was maybe asking 459 00:27:20,545 --> 00:27:21,530 was a little bit different. 460 00:27:21,875 --> 00:27:27,155 And, um, 'cause your, your answer was about, you know, why would somebody 461 00:27:27,155 --> 00:27:30,275 use you versus doing it themselves? 462 00:27:30,645 --> 00:27:37,125 What I would like to see you, uh, hone in on is just the actual, let's 463 00:27:37,125 --> 00:27:40,785 assume you had unlimited uh, resources. 464 00:27:40,965 --> 00:27:42,615 Well, you never had unlimited resources. 465 00:27:42,615 --> 00:27:45,105 But let's say you had a, you had a tape library and you had a 466 00:27:45,105 --> 00:27:49,455 NetBackup server for, uh, setting aside the con, the conflicting part. 467 00:27:50,310 --> 00:27:56,160 How efficient would you say your process of reading everything that needs to 468 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:01,500 be read, restoring everything needs to be restored versus doing that same 469 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:06,805 process, but using pick your favorite backup software and doing it that way. 470 00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:14,430 Brendan Sullivan: So, um, in our data center in Atlanta, um, I 471 00:28:14,435 --> 00:28:18,690 don't know how many tape drives we have, but it's probably 2000 plus. 472 00:28:19,230 --> 00:28:29,070 Um, and when, if somebody drops, uh, 500 tapes on us and they don't know. 473 00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:32,250 They, they, they have a keyword search requirement. 474 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,150 They have a file requirement, but they don't know where it is. 475 00:28:36,570 --> 00:28:39,810 Um, we can go a hundred wide. 476 00:28:39,810 --> 00:28:39,840 I. 477 00:28:40,260 --> 00:28:40,800 Day one. 478 00:28:41,550 --> 00:28:46,290 And, uh, so in terms of the speed and, and then we can just scan, uh, you know, 479 00:28:46,290 --> 00:28:49,861 some of the features that I mentioned in our software, we could, it, it, 480 00:28:50,130 --> 00:28:51,840 e-discovery is all about ruling out. 481 00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:56,700 So it's not about throwing all of the tapes in and restoring, it's about 482 00:28:56,850 --> 00:28:58,710 scanning them in the most efficient way. 483 00:28:58,710 --> 00:29:00,090 Can you rule it out by date? 484 00:29:00,750 --> 00:29:02,010 Can you rule it out by. 485 00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:06,070 Uh, backup session type data, content type. 486 00:29:06,490 --> 00:29:09,010 Um, it's all about ruling out as fast as you can. 487 00:29:09,010 --> 00:29:12,400 So we go wide, fast and wide, and we rule out so. 488 00:29:13,260 --> 00:29:15,750 The, the, the devil's in the detail because it depends 489 00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:17,430 on what the, the matter is. 490 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:23,290 But if it was that 500 tape project that you might try and tackle internally and 491 00:29:23,290 --> 00:29:28,780 you've got your NetBackup or your, your environment there, you might spend months. 492 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,130 Whereas we might spend days in terms of getting to, getting to the data. 493 00:29:33,130 --> 00:29:34,810 So it really can be quite significant. 494 00:29:36,205 --> 00:29:38,515 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, so it sounds like it's a combination of the fact that 495 00:29:38,515 --> 00:29:43,375 you actually do have, not unlimited, but a significant number of tape drive 496 00:29:43,555 --> 00:29:46,885 that, you know, I've been in environments that have hundreds of tape drives, 497 00:29:46,885 --> 00:29:48,445 but those are really, really rare. 498 00:29:48,655 --> 00:29:50,815 Most people have just enough tape drives. 499 00:29:50,815 --> 00:29:52,615 You spoke to this in your previous answer. 500 00:29:52,915 --> 00:29:56,245 Most people have just enough tape drives to get the, to get the job done. 501 00:29:56,305 --> 00:29:57,715 And by the way, it's not just tape driving. 502 00:29:57,715 --> 00:30:00,325 We've talked a lot about tape, but they, they have a, they 503 00:30:00,330 --> 00:30:01,615 have, they may have a dis array. 504 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:08,060 Um, to, to do that job and that that disc system has its job to 505 00:30:08,060 --> 00:30:10,730 do, and then there's people, right? 506 00:30:10,970 --> 00:30:11,570 The fact that. 507 00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:17,780 You've written a piece of software that is purpose built for what you are doing. 508 00:30:18,210 --> 00:30:22,370 NetBackup network or TSM, pick your favorite backup software. 509 00:30:22,550 --> 00:30:24,860 None of them were written to do this. 510 00:30:25,310 --> 00:30:27,860 None of them, you know, if you're looking for. 511 00:30:28,590 --> 00:30:33,060 We have, we have hundreds of backups and we don't know where this file is. 512 00:30:33,210 --> 00:30:34,920 They are not written for that. 513 00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:39,030 Some of 'em have a little bit of search capability, but to 514 00:30:39,030 --> 00:30:41,970 say, um, I've been backing up. 515 00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:46,350 I mean, what percentage of of eDiscovery cases are emailed? 516 00:30:46,355 --> 00:30:47,160 It's really high, right? 517 00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:48,575 Brendan Sullivan: It is high. 518 00:30:48,725 --> 00:30:50,945 Yeah, I would, it's uh, it's still very high. 519 00:30:50,945 --> 00:30:53,465 It used to be a hundred percent, but it al almost a hundred percent, but 520 00:30:53,465 --> 00:30:55,745 it's still still 70% I would say. 521 00:30:56,390 --> 00:30:56,660 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah. 522 00:30:56,660 --> 00:30:57,050 Okay. 523 00:30:57,110 --> 00:31:04,550 So if you're going to do an email, e-discovery case, restoring, if 524 00:31:04,550 --> 00:31:09,170 you're doing this with backups, you have to restore dozens to 525 00:31:09,170 --> 00:31:12,830 hundreds of copies of exchange, 526 00:31:13,055 --> 00:31:14,465 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Didn't you have to do this before? 527 00:31:15,410 --> 00:31:15,915 W. Curtis Preston: what's that? 528 00:31:16,175 --> 00:31:17,795 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Didn't you do this once for a consulting 529 00:31:17,810 --> 00:31:19,370 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, did this once. 530 00:31:19,370 --> 00:31:22,820 It was very lucrative for the consulting company that I worked for at the time. 531 00:31:23,415 --> 00:31:23,635 Um. 532 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,930 But that is it. 533 00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:31,670 It's just, it's just simply not designed, you know, you talked about going wide. 534 00:31:31,970 --> 00:31:34,640 Backup software isn't designed to go wide. 535 00:31:34,670 --> 00:31:37,160 Backup software is designed to go narrow. 536 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,940 I need to restore this server, this directory, this database, 537 00:31:41,090 --> 00:31:42,290 to this point in time. 538 00:31:42,770 --> 00:31:45,990 It is not designed to go find needle in the haystack. 539 00:31:46,490 --> 00:31:46,850 Right? 540 00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:50,375 And I like what you said about how that eDiscovery is all 541 00:31:50,380 --> 00:31:51,425 about, uh, what did you say? 542 00:31:51,425 --> 00:31:53,495 You said all about excluding, all about 543 00:31:53,540 --> 00:31:54,135 Brendan Sullivan: Ruling out. 544 00:31:54,755 --> 00:31:55,685 W. Curtis Preston: ruling out, right? 545 00:31:56,045 --> 00:31:56,405 Yeah. 546 00:31:57,125 --> 00:32:00,725 Ruling out in a defensible way, right? 547 00:32:00,725 --> 00:32:05,105 Here is the process by which we ruled stuff out, and, uh, if you 548 00:32:05,105 --> 00:32:08,435 change your mind, we have all the metadata so we can, we can, you know. 549 00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:10,550 Unru things out. 550 00:32:10,550 --> 00:32:15,710 I just totally made up a phrase, but, uh, if you did that with, with, 551 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,070 uh, you know, uh, pick your favorite backup software every time you 552 00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:21,960 go through is a separate process. 553 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:22,740 Right. 554 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,720 It's interesting now that I think about it because you, 555 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,220 you said it's about ruling out. 556 00:32:27,780 --> 00:32:30,775 N that's not the way backup software works, right? 557 00:32:30,835 --> 00:32:34,885 In backup software, you're, you need to tell it what you want, right? 558 00:32:35,185 --> 00:32:40,915 Not, Hey, I want you to look at everything and then, but don't look at these things, 559 00:32:41,305 --> 00:32:46,135 uh, and just give me these things, but give them over this, this three, 560 00:32:46,140 --> 00:32:51,835 three-year period that, that just, that isn't the way backup software works. 561 00:32:52,675 --> 00:32:55,510 Brendan Sullivan: So you've, you've raised a point that it's something 562 00:32:55,510 --> 00:32:57,160 from a marketing perspective. 563 00:32:57,535 --> 00:33:01,255 I've always been a little bit uncomfortable with, and it's 564 00:33:01,255 --> 00:33:05,665 because of the vernacular, the terminologies that are used, backup. 565 00:33:06,205 --> 00:33:08,815 So, um, uh, it's easy. 566 00:33:08,845 --> 00:33:12,325 It's easier for us to say we're experts in backup. 567 00:33:13,015 --> 00:33:19,495 The truth is that backup softwares, companies are experts in backup and 568 00:33:19,525 --> 00:33:21,325 they, after they call the product. 569 00:33:21,895 --> 00:33:27,565 BUR backup and restore, but the only get ever gets called backup. 570 00:33:28,315 --> 00:33:30,175 All we do is the R. 571 00:33:30,745 --> 00:33:31,975 We don't do any backup. 572 00:33:32,395 --> 00:33:36,805 But if we say, but if we say we're a restore company, it can 573 00:33:36,805 --> 00:33:38,335 get completely misunderstood. 574 00:33:38,335 --> 00:33:40,465 So we say, yeah, we we're backup experts. 575 00:33:40,525 --> 00:33:42,265 But the truth is we don't do any backup. 576 00:33:42,325 --> 00:33:43,165 We only do 577 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,270 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Well, well, and to become restore experts, you 578 00:33:46,270 --> 00:33:47,950 have to be backup experts, right? 579 00:33:47,950 --> 00:33:50,560 Because without that, right, you're just downstream. 580 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,180 So you have to really be entrenched and really deeply knowledgeable 581 00:33:55,180 --> 00:33:57,700 about the backup in order to be able to do restore really well. 582 00:33:58,330 --> 00:34:01,780 Uh, the one thing Curtis, uh, going back to your point about sort 583 00:34:01,780 --> 00:34:05,530 of the number of tape drives and like how normally in your backup 584 00:34:05,530 --> 00:34:08,650 infrastructure, you only have enough infrastructure to get the stuff done. 585 00:34:09,340 --> 00:34:13,900 Imagine if you went as a backup person at a company, you went to 586 00:34:13,930 --> 00:34:18,730 the CIO and was like, Hey, I need a 10 million extra dollars to have 587 00:34:18,730 --> 00:34:22,030 a thousand more tape drives so I can handle an e-discovery request. 588 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,300 That might happen every once in a while. 589 00:34:25,660 --> 00:34:26,110 Right. 590 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,800 Already backup folks are strapped for budget, right? 591 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,460 And going and saying, yes, I need this in order to be able to handle 592 00:34:33,460 --> 00:34:37,930 an e-discovery request, which may or might not happen, may be unpredictable. 593 00:34:37,935 --> 00:34:39,520 You don't know what the scope is. 594 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,310 You can't be like, Hey, I'm always gonna search these 595 00:34:42,310 --> 00:34:44,290 servers, or only emails, right? 596 00:34:44,290 --> 00:34:48,520 It's, it all depends on what the case is, so you can't really predict that. 597 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,080 And so you might have to size for the largest or size for the smallest, and 598 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:54,670 then your window goes out the door, right? 599 00:34:54,670 --> 00:34:55,030 So. 600 00:34:55,990 --> 00:34:59,620 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, I do wanna speak to the the world of disc backups 601 00:34:59,620 --> 00:35:03,280 because as you know, Brendan, you know, a lot of the world has gone to disc. 602 00:35:03,285 --> 00:35:06,640 I mean, you guys have live in the world of tape, but you also speak the 603 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:11,140 world of disc, and so I just wanted to speak to that world as well. 604 00:35:11,675 --> 00:35:15,755 Your efficiency comes from both, from the fact that you can go so wide because 605 00:35:15,755 --> 00:35:20,885 you do have all those tape resources, but also because if you were handed 606 00:35:20,890 --> 00:35:24,935 a, a large, uh, you know, I, I know I talked to you just today about how 607 00:35:24,935 --> 00:35:28,655 a customer had shipped their, their, uh, data domain box to you, right? 608 00:35:28,985 --> 00:35:34,835 And, uh, you can also very easily create multiple sessions against that. 609 00:35:34,835 --> 00:35:35,195 Right. 610 00:35:36,445 --> 00:35:39,740 Brendan Sullivan: The technology is similar. 611 00:35:40,085 --> 00:35:42,695 The same but requires tweaking. 612 00:35:42,995 --> 00:35:45,305 Um, our software requires tweaking. 613 00:35:45,305 --> 00:35:48,485 But you know, it's interesting about that, that project that we talked 614 00:35:48,485 --> 00:35:53,255 about, uh, today, that, uh, we, we were restoring exchanged instances, 615 00:35:54,755 --> 00:35:59,405 thousands of custodians, um, from data domain infrastructure and, um, 616 00:35:59,795 --> 00:36:03,695 the lawyers always called it tape. 617 00:36:04,415 --> 00:36:05,555 And we never touched a tape. 618 00:36:05,930 --> 00:36:10,640 We in the end, we, we couldn't stop them saying, you know, have 619 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:11,810 you restored these tapes yet? 620 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,760 Or have you restored those, those tapes yet? 621 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,110 We couldn't, we couldn't stop that. 622 00:36:15,110 --> 00:36:18,800 So it, it was all coming off data domain. 623 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,350 We never touched a tape, but we still used that as. 624 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,600 Software and tweaked our software to be able to, uh, first restore 625 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,580 the, uh, um, the backups from within the data domain and then extract, 626 00:36:31,580 --> 00:36:37,190 exchange, and then extract custodian, PSD messages, mailboxes, et cetera. 627 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:37,820 Um. 628 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:39,770 W. Curtis Preston: Can you speak to that word by the way? 629 00:36:39,770 --> 00:36:44,150 That was a word that was new to me when coming to the company was custodian. 630 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,370 Um, can you speak to that word? 631 00:36:47,495 --> 00:36:48,935 Brendan Sullivan: It's a, it's a mailbox user. 632 00:36:49,055 --> 00:36:54,995 Uh, so what often gets used is if, if you are in a large company and, um. 633 00:36:55,685 --> 00:36:58,895 There's 6,000, uh, mailbox users. 634 00:36:58,895 --> 00:37:01,895 So you might have 6,000 mailbox users on an exchange environment, 635 00:37:01,955 --> 00:37:06,155 and then three people, uh, are under investigation for whatever reason. 636 00:37:06,155 --> 00:37:10,055 And we have to produce the mailboxes, multiple instances, you know, 637 00:37:10,055 --> 00:37:13,385 whether they be from fos in, uh, incrementals differentials, whatever. 638 00:37:13,385 --> 00:37:18,665 If we have to produce all of the instances of that mailbox user, that the term 639 00:37:18,665 --> 00:37:21,065 that is used is those three custodians. 640 00:37:22,415 --> 00:37:23,465 Prasanna Malaiyandi: It's a legal term, right? 641 00:37:23,620 --> 00:37:24,935 Brendan Sullivan: Yeah, I guess. 642 00:37:24,940 --> 00:37:25,150 Yeah. 643 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,100 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, I, it, it's just for me, historically, 644 00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:32,150 that word, I mean, it meant someone who took care of the data. 645 00:37:32,150 --> 00:37:34,580 So I always thought of a data custodian as like, I have thought 646 00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:38,540 of myself as a data custodian, but that's not the way it, that's not 647 00:37:38,540 --> 00:37:40,130 the way it's meant in this context. 648 00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:42,860 That's why I just wanted to make sure we, we threw that out. 649 00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:45,740 Prasanna Malaiyandi: So Brendan, I know we've been talking a lot 650 00:37:45,740 --> 00:37:50,240 about e-discovery, but are there other use cases that you see people 651 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:51,770 also needing this capability? 652 00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:55,550 Like I used to work for backup vendors, many backup vendors, and 653 00:37:55,730 --> 00:37:58,190 one of the challenges that people would always have is like, Hey, 654 00:37:58,190 --> 00:38:00,170 I have name your backup vendor. 655 00:38:00,530 --> 00:38:03,440 I wanna leave them and switch to your solution, but I have all this. 656 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,650 Data and I don't know what to really do with it, and I don't wanna 657 00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:09,950 continue paying the maintenance contracts and other things, and 658 00:38:09,950 --> 00:38:11,450 I'm not sure what to do with that. 659 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,930 Is that something that you guys also hear from customers and do you have 660 00:38:14,930 --> 00:38:16,700 the ability to help them with those 661 00:38:17,295 --> 00:38:21,735 Brendan Sullivan: It's, uh, increasingly, increasingly, the, um, in fact, I 662 00:38:21,735 --> 00:38:22,875 would, I would say that there are. 663 00:38:23,935 --> 00:38:28,975 Two fundamental, um, reasons for our technology. 664 00:38:29,005 --> 00:38:34,585 You know, one is the remediation side of it, um, and the other is the specific 665 00:38:34,585 --> 00:38:36,355 litigation discovery side of it. 666 00:38:36,475 --> 00:38:43,675 Um, so it's, it's the, the federal rules of civil procedure of, of, of, of kind, 667 00:38:43,675 --> 00:38:46,255 of guide make it easy or difficult. 668 00:38:46,465 --> 00:38:49,645 And they've changed over recent years that make it a little easier, a 669 00:38:49,915 --> 00:38:52,405 little more justifiable to remediate. 670 00:38:52,725 --> 00:38:55,635 Delete, uh, certain data. 671 00:38:56,115 --> 00:39:03,345 Um, and what we think has, has, has happened from that coupled with the, 672 00:39:03,945 --> 00:39:08,535 the growth in cloud and, and the demise of email archive platforms. 673 00:39:08,595 --> 00:39:09,550 Um, I. 674 00:39:09,755 --> 00:39:14,285 What's happened is that migration is, is much more topical and our 675 00:39:14,285 --> 00:39:18,905 technologies lends itself extremely, you know, ideally for migration. 676 00:39:19,415 --> 00:39:24,545 Um, but I think also, I think the, what, what so many 677 00:39:24,575 --> 00:39:26,765 companies really want to do, I. 678 00:39:27,275 --> 00:39:35,075 Is delete the, uh, I think I see the main objective is deletion on demand 679 00:39:35,135 --> 00:39:37,235 is I think the term that I'd, I'd coin. 680 00:39:37,325 --> 00:39:45,545 So, you know, if you have 50 petabytes of data, um, that spanning back 15, 681 00:39:45,545 --> 00:39:51,545 20 years, the reality of you needing that or having to keep all of that. 682 00:39:51,965 --> 00:39:53,405 Uh, is a nonsense. 683 00:39:53,465 --> 00:39:57,905 You know, you, you don't, but there is some in there that you really 684 00:39:57,905 --> 00:40:01,055 should, because if you don't, it could land you in trouble or 685 00:40:01,055 --> 00:40:02,675 it could, could have some value. 686 00:40:03,245 --> 00:40:07,655 And so, um, migration is the driver I. 687 00:40:08,585 --> 00:40:14,585 We would like to take our legacy, uh, environment and we would like to put it in 688 00:40:14,585 --> 00:40:20,225 a more modern environment, a cloud-based backup system or something like that. 689 00:40:20,705 --> 00:40:24,155 And, and then we say, okay, you, you know, hundreds of terabytes 690 00:40:24,155 --> 00:40:25,625 of data, we can migrate that. 691 00:40:25,625 --> 00:40:29,165 And, and, and it's, it's controlled by. 692 00:40:30,035 --> 00:40:32,885 Often by the bandwidth of the legacy infrastructure. 693 00:40:32,885 --> 00:40:37,955 So if it's an email archiving platform, like a source one where uh, support 694 00:40:37,985 --> 00:40:43,475 is going away at the end of this year, and migration of data out of those 695 00:40:43,475 --> 00:40:48,425 environments, uh, are limited by the speed that that source one infrastructure 696 00:40:48,425 --> 00:40:50,555 can migrate those messages out. 697 00:40:50,555 --> 00:40:51,335 But you've got to. 698 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,100 Migrate them out to be able to remediate, to be able to delete, to be 699 00:40:55,100 --> 00:40:57,050 able to keep, uh, whatever you want. 700 00:40:57,170 --> 00:40:59,810 It's, it's, it's complex, it's slow. 701 00:40:59,870 --> 00:41:06,080 And, um, the ability to, to take the storage environment of those legacy 702 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,190 environments and go fast and wide, um, is. 703 00:41:10,450 --> 00:41:11,680 Is highly valuable. 704 00:41:11,770 --> 00:41:14,110 Um, and, but that's the driver. 705 00:41:14,110 --> 00:41:18,250 It's not just the migration, that's the driver, it's the deletion because once 706 00:41:18,250 --> 00:41:20,590 you, it's like turning over the stone. 707 00:41:20,890 --> 00:41:27,070 Um, this is offsite Storage vendors have made a lot of money, uh, 708 00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:29,170 for many years of keeping stuff. 709 00:41:29,350 --> 00:41:33,160 And if you don't look at something, uh, maybe it's not there. 710 00:41:33,610 --> 00:41:34,540 If you look at it. 711 00:41:35,090 --> 00:41:37,730 And you know it's there, then you have to do something with it. 712 00:41:38,030 --> 00:41:44,330 So, um, the challenge is, is in, for us, in terms of what technology 713 00:41:44,330 --> 00:41:48,530 we develop, we need that, uh, the clients need that technology to be 714 00:41:48,530 --> 00:41:54,890 able to migrate quickly, um, delete defensively and delete on demand. 715 00:41:54,980 --> 00:41:56,480 So it's, it's not just migration. 716 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,370 It's migration and deletion. 717 00:41:58,550 --> 00:42:00,770 Um, which the term I would use. 718 00:42:01,175 --> 00:42:04,565 Um, generally is remediation of, of, uh, of data. 719 00:42:04,775 --> 00:42:07,445 It's a growing market and data privacy is only making that, 720 00:42:08,045 --> 00:42:09,785 um, come more to the fore. 721 00:42:09,995 --> 00:42:14,200 Um, and, you know, companies, there's a lot of companies out there that, that 722 00:42:14,225 --> 00:42:19,085 want their, their backed up archive data in the cloud so that they can 723 00:42:19,115 --> 00:42:23,705 forever remove infrastructure within their data center and just put it 724 00:42:23,705 --> 00:42:25,715 all up in, in the cloud, which, um. 725 00:42:26,825 --> 00:42:29,525 You know, it makes perfect sense to remediate that data 726 00:42:29,525 --> 00:42:31,415 before it goes to the cloud. 727 00:42:31,475 --> 00:42:32,645 Not on mass. 728 00:42:33,020 --> 00:42:35,618 Prasanna Malaiyandi: yeah, because even though cloud is cheap , especially 729 00:42:35,618 --> 00:42:38,228 when you talk about deep storage, uh. 730 00:42:38,828 --> 00:42:42,848 It is still a cost, and if you keep adding that up over the months and the 731 00:42:42,848 --> 00:42:46,208 years that you're keeping that data for, right, those costs can add up. 732 00:42:46,858 --> 00:42:47,588 Brendan Sullivan: It's only cheap. 733 00:42:49,163 --> 00:42:50,783 It's only cheap on the way in. 734 00:42:51,443 --> 00:42:53,513 It's, it's expensive, on the way out. 735 00:42:53,873 --> 00:42:57,053 Um, egress is, is a, is is what's gonna hurt. 736 00:42:58,133 --> 00:43:01,943 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Although I did hear that at least AWS and some of 737 00:43:01,943 --> 00:43:07,193 the other public cloud companies due to EU regulations are now, 738 00:43:07,553 --> 00:43:11,393 uh, have removed egress costs if you are canceling your account. 739 00:43:11,723 --> 00:43:14,423 So they're at least starting to help there, but it doesn't help if you need 740 00:43:14,423 --> 00:43:17,273 to pull data out just for a one-off case or something else like that. 741 00:43:17,273 --> 00:43:17,603 So. 742 00:43:18,083 --> 00:43:18,413 Brendan Sullivan: Yeah. 743 00:43:18,818 --> 00:43:21,668 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, I, I can see all kinds of migrations here, right? 744 00:43:21,668 --> 00:43:23,618 I can see, I, you know, I know that. 745 00:43:24,038 --> 00:43:27,218 So there are plenty of people that are still on tape and they want to keep the 746 00:43:27,218 --> 00:43:31,418 tapes, but they realize that they have a bunch of DLT one tapes and you could 747 00:43:31,418 --> 00:43:35,828 put, I don't know how many DLT one tapes you can put on an LT oh eight, right? 748 00:43:35,828 --> 00:43:36,908 Or an LT oh nine. 749 00:43:37,298 --> 00:43:39,548 Uh, but you, but you guys can do that, right? 750 00:43:39,553 --> 00:43:42,998 You can, you can migrate, you can migrate and, and remediate there. 751 00:43:43,328 --> 00:43:44,828 Uh, you can keep everything. 752 00:43:44,853 --> 00:43:49,953 But keep it in a much smaller space, reducing your monthly bill from whoever 753 00:43:49,953 --> 00:43:51,813 it is that's holding onto your tapes. 754 00:43:51,813 --> 00:43:54,933 Or if you're holding onto your own tapes, you're, you know, reduce 755 00:43:54,933 --> 00:43:56,403 your data center footprint of that. 756 00:43:57,063 --> 00:44:03,183 You can migrate data into some sort of cloud storage, like you 757 00:44:03,183 --> 00:44:04,578 said, remediate along the way. 758 00:44:05,073 --> 00:44:07,323 You say, look, we've got all these backups. 759 00:44:08,603 --> 00:44:12,413 And the only thing we want to keep out of them is the exchange data. 760 00:44:12,923 --> 00:44:14,333 You can do that, right? 761 00:44:14,333 --> 00:44:17,633 You can, uh, extract just the exchange data or just the 762 00:44:17,633 --> 00:44:19,343 whatever data, whatever it is. 763 00:44:19,733 --> 00:44:25,703 Um, you can extract that out defensively because maybe they've got a, a 764 00:44:25,703 --> 00:44:27,533 regulatory requirement to keep that. 765 00:44:27,533 --> 00:44:31,733 Or maybe they've got a, a voice system and they have to keep those records. 766 00:44:31,943 --> 00:44:34,133 Whatever it it is that, that they have to keep. 767 00:44:34,373 --> 00:44:37,583 You can make sure that they keep that, but delete everything else. 768 00:44:37,823 --> 00:44:40,913 Migrating that into whatever kind of system that they want to do. 769 00:44:41,363 --> 00:44:46,433 Um, and I know we've even talked about, um, ways in which that 770 00:44:46,433 --> 00:44:49,163 you could potentially migrate it into another backup system. 771 00:44:49,583 --> 00:44:51,803 Definitely more complicated, I think. 772 00:44:52,133 --> 00:44:54,773 Um, but it's doable. 773 00:44:54,983 --> 00:45:00,173 But obviously it's a hard, uh, it's a high level of effort, which 774 00:45:00,173 --> 00:45:01,703 would, which would be costly. 775 00:45:01,708 --> 00:45:05,873 So then the customer would just have to make a, a decision as to whether or 776 00:45:05,873 --> 00:45:07,583 not, I think that was not a question. 777 00:45:07,673 --> 00:45:09,473 I just talked for five minutes. 778 00:45:09,933 --> 00:45:13,083 Brendan, we've talked about the backups, we've talked about, uh, the 779 00:45:13,083 --> 00:45:16,173 remediation side and, uh, and e-discovery. 780 00:45:16,533 --> 00:45:20,373 Uh, but as I recall, there's also another part of the company 781 00:45:20,373 --> 00:45:21,933 that talks about forensics. 782 00:45:22,203 --> 00:45:27,753 What, um, so it sounds like you, you're just handling a, a, a, all, all 783 00:45:27,758 --> 00:45:29,403 the data that needs to be collected. 784 00:45:31,038 --> 00:45:33,948 Brendan Sullivan: Yeah, so, so, uh, the backup that we've said, 785 00:45:33,948 --> 00:45:35,268 uh, is not really what we do. 786 00:45:35,328 --> 00:45:36,198 We do the restore. 787 00:45:36,258 --> 00:45:43,158 Um, the, it, it's the proce, the legal process is, um, best understood. 788 00:45:43,893 --> 00:45:47,553 Um, from a model that's being created. 789 00:45:48,093 --> 00:45:53,943 Um, it's called the EDRM model, um, electronic Discovery Reference Model. 790 00:45:54,543 --> 00:45:58,443 And, um, you can follow it and there's a, there's a process which is, you know, 791 00:45:58,443 --> 00:46:04,263 identification of target data over on one side and all the way to produce 792 00:46:04,353 --> 00:46:09,543 in a court of law on the other side, and the restoration and production 793 00:46:09,548 --> 00:46:12,213 of data from legacy environments. 794 00:46:12,513 --> 00:46:17,523 We've about thus far is really on the left hand side of that ED rm, 795 00:46:18,063 --> 00:46:20,793 uh, model, and more on the right. 796 00:46:21,738 --> 00:46:26,688 Is, uh, the forensic side and, uh, the e-discovery side, which 797 00:46:26,688 --> 00:46:28,548 is where the analysis of the data. 798 00:46:28,548 --> 00:46:33,438 So just getting the target data is what we've talked about thus far. 799 00:46:33,948 --> 00:46:38,028 And inevitably when we're doing that, some clients they say, well, 800 00:46:38,033 --> 00:46:39,708 that's only part of the process. 801 00:46:40,098 --> 00:46:45,888 Um, we'd like, um, we'd ultimately like you to actually find the data or help 802 00:46:45,888 --> 00:46:48,918 us find the specific data that might. 803 00:46:49,178 --> 00:46:55,148 Be used for defense or, um, for whatever, whatever the lawyers, 804 00:46:55,208 --> 00:46:56,528 uh, are trying to achieve. 805 00:46:56,978 --> 00:47:03,458 And so that, that part is, uh, much more analysis, keyword search, um, 806 00:47:03,758 --> 00:47:09,728 artificial intelligence, machine learning, computer, uh, aided learning that allows, 807 00:47:09,848 --> 00:47:13,748 um, uh, platforms to sift through. 808 00:47:14,853 --> 00:47:20,253 Fully indexed, uh, all sorts of data very, very quickly and build a story 809 00:47:20,583 --> 00:47:25,263 that the lawyers can use, um, as, as fast and efficiently as possible. 810 00:47:25,473 --> 00:47:30,003 So we do have two other departments, um, besides the, the Restore side. 811 00:47:30,003 --> 00:47:34,863 We have computer forensics where we have certified forensic examiners that 812 00:47:34,863 --> 00:47:41,313 typically look at, um, you know, laptops, PCs, windows, servers, but you know, more. 813 00:47:42,093 --> 00:47:45,543 More, more recently it's, it's, uh, iPhones and Androids. 814 00:47:45,933 --> 00:47:51,363 Um, there's a lot of data on those devices now, um, using technologies 815 00:47:51,363 --> 00:47:54,873 like Cellebrite and NK and X-rays and various other things. 816 00:47:55,083 --> 00:47:58,683 So we have a computer forensics department that, uh, our examiners 817 00:47:58,683 --> 00:48:00,363 specifically work in that area. 818 00:48:00,453 --> 00:48:00,993 Um. 819 00:48:01,693 --> 00:48:06,493 Producing and reviewing things like WhatsApp chat messages, 820 00:48:06,493 --> 00:48:08,743 signal chat messages, et cetera. 821 00:48:08,743 --> 00:48:11,023 Teams is coming just around the corner. 822 00:48:11,863 --> 00:48:19,243 Um, and then the e-discovery platform, um, which is, um, uh, the actual, 823 00:48:19,243 --> 00:48:23,743 where the data actually resides and where lawyers and paralegals will, will 824 00:48:23,743 --> 00:48:27,343 search and review and then tag relevant. 825 00:48:28,203 --> 00:48:31,653 Uh, data and then come back to 'em to build the stories that they will 826 00:48:31,653 --> 00:48:36,183 send to opposing counsel or ultimately go, uh, go to court to produce. 827 00:48:36,603 --> 00:48:41,013 Um, we also have a e-discovery department, and, um, they're not 828 00:48:41,013 --> 00:48:46,203 the largest parts of our, uh, of our portfolio, but, um, they're an 829 00:48:46,203 --> 00:48:47,523 essential part and they're growing. 830 00:48:48,003 --> 00:48:52,803 Um, because what clients want is they want you to be able to handle everything from 831 00:48:52,803 --> 00:48:55,533 the far left to as far right as possible. 832 00:48:56,763 --> 00:48:59,853 Prasanna Malaiyandi: Yeah, you guys are like the experts, and so if you're a 833 00:48:59,853 --> 00:49:03,033 company, you have no idea where to start, and you're like, Hey, I got this request. 834 00:49:03,033 --> 00:49:03,753 I have a bunch of data. 835 00:49:03,753 --> 00:49:04,713 I don't know what to do. 836 00:49:05,193 --> 00:49:08,523 It's like, Hey, I should give a call to you guys and be like, Hey, I need help. 837 00:49:09,058 --> 00:49:09,348 Brendan Sullivan: Yeah. 838 00:49:09,678 --> 00:49:12,498 W. Curtis Preston: Yeah, I, I think remember one of the biggest surprises 839 00:49:12,558 --> 00:49:16,158 for me was when I was looking at all the things that, uh, you do, 840 00:49:16,668 --> 00:49:18,618 was that e-discovery part, right? 841 00:49:18,623 --> 00:49:23,208 So we were talking about Microsoft 365, and you were explaining how that you 842 00:49:23,238 --> 00:49:26,448 do the, the you, you use the customers. 843 00:49:26,708 --> 00:49:29,498 eDiscovery tool in Microsoft 365. 844 00:49:29,888 --> 00:49:32,768 And I remember asking, well, why don't they just do that? 845 00:49:33,338 --> 00:49:35,258 You're like, well, because it's really hard. 846 00:49:35,588 --> 00:49:35,978 Right? 847 00:49:36,788 --> 00:49:39,998 Because it's, it's a, it's a very complicated, and again, going back 848 00:49:39,998 --> 00:49:44,258 to something you said much earlier, is you want to be able to, to 849 00:49:44,348 --> 00:49:50,498 defensively say that you did this in the proper way, that you conducted 850 00:49:50,498 --> 00:49:54,968 the search in a proper way to, so that you could say, here's what we did. 851 00:49:55,368 --> 00:49:58,518 Here's how, you know, here's what we've, I'm sorry, here's what we've 852 00:49:58,518 --> 00:50:02,658 collected and here's the process that we used to collect that. 853 00:50:02,838 --> 00:50:04,848 And that's a defensible process. 854 00:50:05,328 --> 00:50:11,118 Um, versus somebody who is clicking on Microsoft 360 five's e-discovery 855 00:50:11,123 --> 00:50:12,858 button for the first time. 856 00:50:13,248 --> 00:50:14,658 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I could see you doing that, Curtis. 857 00:50:17,253 --> 00:50:19,173 Brendan Sullivan: Let me tell you, Curtis is a fast learner. 858 00:50:22,653 --> 00:50:23,538 W. Curtis Preston: I try, I try, I try. 859 00:50:24,108 --> 00:50:27,978 Well, um, with that, uh, Brendan, thanks for coming on. 860 00:50:29,043 --> 00:50:29,973 Brendan Sullivan: Thanks for having me. 861 00:50:31,383 --> 00:50:34,533 W. Curtis Preston: And thanks persona for your usual great questions as well. 862 00:50:36,063 --> 00:50:37,473 Prasanna Malaiyandi: I try Curtis and Brandon. 863 00:50:37,473 --> 00:50:38,338 It was nice to meet you. 864 00:50:38,728 --> 00:50:39,108 Brendan Sullivan: You too. 865 00:50:39,813 --> 00:50:39,933 You too. 866 00:50:41,073 --> 00:50:42,543 W. Curtis Preston: And uh, thanks to our listeners. 867 00:50:42,723 --> 00:50:45,243 Be sure to subscribe so that you don't miss an episode. 868 00:50:45,393 --> 00:50:46,713 That is a wrap,