Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
You know what? I haven't carried cash for almost four years, five years. I've been living out of Saudi for the last 25 years, and this year, I never seen a cash for myself, never.
Nora Hocke:
Where cash once ruled, digital payments now move the economy in the Middle East. The region has embraced fintechs and one of the pioneering companies behind the transformation is PayTabs. They build payment infrastructure that helps banks and merchants unify how money moves, making financial operations faster, simpler, and far more efficient. This week on Fintech Files from BCG Platinion, we're thrilled to bring you a conversation recorded at Money20/20 in Riyadh, where our very own Annika is based. She sat down with the CEO and founder of PayTabs, Abdulaziz Al Jouf, to learn more about the evolution of his company and to explore where Fintech is headed in the Middle East.
Annika Melchert:
By now it's not only Saudi Arabia, I think you've also expanded.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
We started from Morocco all the way to India. Took us 10 years and more than 1,000 flights to move the engine.
Annika Melchert:
Luckily, it's only a short flight then.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Yeah.
Annika Melchert:
That's quite impressive to be honest, and I think looking back at when you founded PayTabs, more than 10 years ago, I imagine it was quite a different Fintech landscape.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Actually, it doesn't exist. After two years, I heard about the fintech and I still remember when I asked, I said, "What is Fintech? Fintech is everyone talking about Fintech." I said, "It's a financial service." I said, "What I have to do with this?" He said, "This is you." It was a very unregulated market. There's no rules. Only central banks across the region. It's quite funny, they didn't know what to do with us at that time. I never thought to become what is it today. All I wanted was how to make the payment easy for businesses, and here we go today. It's quite surprising, even for me personally.
Annika Melchert:
Maybe looking back across the last years, I think Saudi Arabia is a super cool example on how a country can support its fintech. What do you think, what can other countries maybe learn from this, or also other regulators specifically?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
I've been sitting with central banks in so many countries, I'd say, and quite, impressed, and pride as a Saudi to see central banks tell me, "We want to do what you guys done." Of course, we're taking the chance to say, "We can help you. We've been in the country, we know what's going on. We have gone through the whole experience," and actually, it become one of our unique selling points. "We are in Saudi and we can do the same for you." I was last night with one of the neighbour country minister of finance last night, and he's very impressed, and he was asking, "What can you do for us in our country?" I think the country movement in the last 10 years is very impressive. When I started in 2015, I still remember that cash was 85% and now, it's almost 101% digital.
Annika Melchert:
Definitely. When I moved to Saudi two years ago, I felt like without an STC pay account or without a credit card-
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Or Apple Pay.
Annika Melchert:
... you're nothing.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Yeah, exactly.
Annika Melchert:
Defini-tely. When I compare this to my home country, Germany, I still always need a bit of cash with me, because otherwise, I might get lost somewhere and not be able to pay my driver.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
You know what? I haven't carried cash for almost four years, five years. I've been living out of Saudi for the last 25 years and this year, I never seen a cash for myself, never.
Annika Melchert:
That's cool. I think that's really a testament of how much the complete financial ecosystem here is growing.
Nora Hocke:
They are making a really interesting point here, because for me, moving from Germany to Australia earlier this year, I've actually never used a physical bank node. I've never used cash since moving to Australia because everything operates digitally, which is very similar to the Middle East and the future they are creating. The Middle East is certainly becoming one of the fastest growing hubs for Fintech innovation, and yet, it is also a place where tradition still runs deep, where trust, relationships, and longstanding customs still shape how commerce happens. It's such an interesting balance and one, that Annika explores next.
Annika Melchert:
From your perspective, what do you think is key to balance the Saudi tradition with all the innovation and then speed, and then also, the responsible regulation you need in the finance sector?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
We don't have to change to adapt. We don't have to change our culture to adapt. I'm keeping my tradition. I'm keeping my religion, and I managed to develop and change and be advanced in technology or financial services or other scheme. I'm a strong believer living outside Saudi for 25 years. I lived in the West for 10. I lived in the East for 10. I lived in Middle East neighbor country for five. So I have seen the eastern west culture and not just a visiting, right? I lived there for 10 years. I think tradition is a core principle for our growth and development. It should not be against our growth and development.
Annika Melchert:
It basically helps to set the right foundation and the right company values.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Yeah.
Annika Melchert:
That's amazing. Are there any lessons you could take from the other markets you've worked in? I think you spent some time in the US, also in Bahrain. Is there anything Saudi cannot teach the others, but also the others can teach Saudi Arabia?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
There's nobody is perfect. Today we sit in Morocco and we sit in India and we sit in Saudi. I tell my team, I'm Saudi and I always stay Saudi, but my Moroccan CEO in Morocco or my Indian CEO in India, he understands the culture and what we are feeding to them as the technology, the principle of our company as a company today, we have, Annika, more than 28 passports, nationalities work in the company today.
Annika Melchert:
So it's very intercultural?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Exactly. For me personally, I'm learning from all those culture, I'm learning from all those markets and understanding the business culture, it's not about technology, it's not about product, it's not about finance. It's about how to understand how the business run in India and you go to Saudi and you see the business culture is completely different. Then you go to Morocco and the culture is completely different. It's amazing how you manage to build under one foundation all those nationalities to support, but the purpose is one. It is how to process the maximum of transaction in the region. This is what we say for everyone is empowering every single transaction in the region.
Annika Melchert:
That's super interesting. Then you basically also have access to talent from Saudi, from Morocco, and from India.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Yes.
Annika Melchert:
What advice would you then give founders who are also planning to expand internationally?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
The single advice I would give is partnership, partnership, partnership. The second one is do not start big. Always start small, test, try and you burn your finger, get out, study your mistakes, go back again, until you perfect the right formula, because each and every market has a complete different culture and has a complete different partnership model and has a complete different business model. If you go to Egypt, we are almost like 100% QR. If you go to Saudi, it's zero.
Annika Melchert:
I've never seen it here.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Yeah. Exactly. You never seen it. You have to understand how to work with market and adapt, which I just said for you, the business culture of each and every market, how to fit into the culture. This is why when I see companies coming from East and West, okay, I tell them, "I've been there. I've done that, so if you're going to come with the same product you think you're going to, I'm in fly in this region, you're not going to fly." Okay. You have to understand how business run in this region to fit into it.
Annika Melchert:
It's then really about having a very deep understanding of what do the consumer need and what pain points are we trying to solve?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Yeah, 100%. Any company who come to me or any entrepreneurs who come to me and say, "I want to launch my product." I said, "Are you ready for this market?" He said, "We are doing so well in X country." I said, "Yeah. Good for you, but can you fit into this country?" And I see a lot of failures of entrepreneurs because they think if I succeed in Saudi, then I will succeed in Turkey, which is completely 360-degree different.
Annika Melchert:
That's interesting. When I had my consulting onboarding, the first thing they told us is fail fast, fail forward, which then also means, okay, be humble, try, but if you fail, try again.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Yeah. Learn that it's not how many times you fail, how many times you stand up again.
Annika Melchert:
Maybe coming back to the initial days of PayTabs, so you mentioned already the term Fintech did not exist. I would also assume that most of the other Fintechs, which are now the big ones here, did not really exist. There was no real ecosystem. What was the initial pain point you were trying to solve?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
What really triggered the whole story is I loved the US for almost 10, and when you want to process payment, it's naturally an hour job. When I came to Saudi at that time, I wanted to launch business, but I want to run it from out of Saudi. I came to the bank and I said, "I want payment gateway," which is very simple, and I remember he gave me two pages of requirements and I said for him, "Okay." He said, "One thing strike me all the time for the last 10 years is you need 3 years bank statement or audit statement." I said, "I'm just two weeks old." He said, "No, forget about it. No way you're going to get it."
When I went with him to his office, I still remember those piles of documents. I said, "What are those?" He said, "Peoples like you who wants the payment service." I remember it was like 200 application and I thought, "If it's my problem, then it's everyone's problem." I remember we built the code. We went to outside company to process the payment. I remember we bought the entire website for $25, the whole theme, dashboard, everything.
Annika Melchert:
So it was a good investment?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
I did not even remove the logo of the designer that time. I just want to really see if this is going to work. I still remember we spent like four or five months building all things, putting all the pieces together and they say entrepreneurs jump from build your parachute on the way down. This is exactly true what happened to me. I jumped from the plane, and literally, I don't know how to build a parachute. I'm just getting pieces together. We launched in October with zero and by December, I still remember New Year Eve that day, and I was talking to a friend of mine. I said, "Could you believe that we process 20 million SAR?"
Annika Melchert:
When I looked it up, all the other Fintechs, you know by now, like Drahim, Tabby, and so on, they all started later, so I think there is a lot they learned from you.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Yeah. Well, they did a good job. They managed to move a market, which I admire what they have done.
Annika Melchert:
Yeah, definitely.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Yeah.
Annika Melchert:
It's really cool. Looking now ahead, maybe to 2030, maybe even to 2040, what are the next trends you would see in the payments industry, but maybe also broader for the Fintech space here in Saudi?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Let's talk about 30 before we go to 40.
Annika Melchert:
Okay.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
I think a lot of those Fintech companies will become a commodity. The payment is a commodity today, but "buy now, pay later" will become a commodity today. A lot of surfaces will become a commodity. I always tell entrepreneurs, if you're going to build something, build something that move the needle in the country, like Tabby, Tamara, something really big that change people's life. Do not go to tiny, tiny, tiny space and you try to build a company that will not work because eventually you will die. The market is not there, the business is not there. I think what's going to happen, I mean, with time, you see more, I would say, added value surfaces coming, and it's just actually the beginning from last year. You start to see a lot of acquisitions happening from big fish. Now, they call us the big fish. We used to be tiny and we acquired the last four years, almost like five companies and we are acquiring other five companies in the next two years.
Annika Melchert:
The growth is not stopping.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Exactly. I think what I see, in 2030, you'll see more of the added value surfaces coming up. If there's a key change, I would say, there are waves keep coming and going. The issuing came up, spent so much, they spent almost $60 million, nothing happened. People think it's a wave coming up, but eventually it get hit by the rock. Buy now, pay later managed to get up in the wave. Then the AI come in. Now, you see financing. Everything is financing. Okay. Someone is financing the rent. Every year you feel and you see a theme. The year before was crowdfunding. Last year was AI. This year financing. Every year, there are different themes coming up.
Annika Melchert:
Anything specific to Saudi you would see in the next 10 years coming?
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
I think one addition to what we talked about is how the banks start to change their behavior toward Fintech. We have one of the bank here in Saudi two years ago, they have no payment services. They have no team, and they took our solution. This month, they're doing almost $300 million a month. You can see the growth they have done from zero. We seeing the same in Jordan, feels proud of impact that you managed to change the bank perspective and also, the peoples in the market. It gives you a channel of a pride. You change people's life.
Annika Melchert:
That's a really nice story to end with. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for taking time. It was really amazing for me now being based in Riyadh to really hear about the first Saudi Fintech. Thank you so much for taking time and sharing your perspective.
Abdulaziz Al Jouf:
Thank you, to have me here, and thanks to the team behind.
Nora Hocke:
It's incredible to think back. When PayTabs was starting, there were no regulators, no roadmap for how Fintechs should work in Saudi Arabia. They really had to build the systems, trusts, and frameworks from the ground up. From what I've seen in other markets, there is very interesting contrast actually to one of our early episodes with Dhruv from Syfe who built their Fintech in Singapore, for example, and now Singapore is a market or a nation that is very heavily regulated. Not in a bad way actually, but in a way that regulators actually provide a more protected ecosystem for fintechs to grow and to start. They have a fintech sandbox that companies can work with in a really defined environment.
Seeing that on one side, like regulators with a very strong role, actively encouraging fintechs versus obviously, other fintechs starting with no guardrails at all, it's like a super interesting contrast and still exciting to see obviously, how both can turn out very successfully. I'm not saying one or the other is better. It's just, it's very different starting grounds, and for sure, if you have a very strongly regulated environment, it helps you keep the market more stable and safe, especially if you are operating in a very established market, you just don't want to risk it being torn down by a Fintech that maybe doesn't operate in proper ways.
But then on the other side, if you are operating in a market that is not yet as regulated or regulated at all, that gives you a lot of opportunity. You really can reinvent how financial services work. You can think back from the customer, like what do your customers actually need? How would they like to pay each other? What kind of customer journey would they like? Whereas obviously, if you work in a very regulated environment, that is prescribed. Really interesting to see how PayTabs did define that on their own in such a successful way.
This has been Fintech Files, a podcast from BCG Platinion. This season, we're digging deep into the groundbreaking ideas that are reshaping the future of fintech. We've got some amazing guests lined up, so make sure that you're subscribed and you'll never miss an episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you next time on Fintech Files.