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You know, the polyvagal theory
and how it generally relates

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to mental health and trauma.

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But have you ever considered what the
theory implicates for behavior and choice?

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If our thoughts and our behaviors are
dependent on our states, then what does

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this mean in our ability to choose?

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What does this mean in our
ability to make change?

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Or help someone else make a change.

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My name's Justin sincerely.

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I'm a therapist, a coach, and the creator
of the polyvagal trauma relief system.

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Welcome to Stuck Not Broken where I teach
you how to live with more calm, confidence

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and connection without the psychobabble.

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We're going to nerd out
polyvagal style one more time.

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I think maybe more, but
at least one more time.

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This might be the deepest nerdery yet.

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And I'm glad that you're here for it.

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If you don't know the political
theory, this is definitely

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not the episode for you.

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Head on over to episode 1 0 1.

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Of this podcast and start from there.

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Dr.

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Steven Portis wrote a paper called the
bagel paradox that released in 2023.

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And within this paper, he describes
the polyvagal theory as an algorithm.

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What is an algorithm?

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From our friends at Miriam
Webster, they define it as a step

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by step procedure for solving a
problem or accomplishing some end.

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That's more of a broader
definition though.

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Also from our friends at- our good
friends at Marion Webster- is a procedure

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for solving a mathematical problem in a
finite number of steps that frequently

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involves repetition of an operation.

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Both definitions of an
algorithm involve a problem.

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There's also reference to a procedure
in both definitions being a way to solve

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a problem that reoccurs or can reoccur.

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And there's an end result in
both of those definitions.

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This leaves us with a general
three-step sort of model for

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algorithms and what they do.

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And that three-step model
is there's a problem.

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Procedure and a result,
or there is an input.

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The algorithm and an output.

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Or there's the context.

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A process and an output.

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We're all kind of saying the same
thing, but just different ways.

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To word it.

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So there is there's some sort of
contextual input or a problem.

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Then there's a process or problem solving.

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And then there's a result.

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The word algorithms typically use
when we're discussing computer

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programming, data and math.

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You've probably heard it in
reference to social media algorithms.

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Where a platform like YouTube adjust
their recommendations based on what

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they want to see in the results.

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So YouTube has a desired outcome.

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They changed the equation of their
search engine to get the outcome.

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But an algorithm could also be making
a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

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The input is the ingredients.

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The procedure is the steps required or
are the steps required for making the

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sandwich, like, you know, piece of bread.

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Peanut butter jelly, and
another piece of bread.

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He use a a knife to put it on.

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The bread and put it together.

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Like there's a procedure.

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And the output is the sandwich, which
by the way, any sandwich or anything

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really in life should never involve
peanut butter because it's disgusting.

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It tastes gross.

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It smells gross and texturally
is, ugh, it's awful as well.

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No, I don't take many.

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Hard for him lines on
things here in the podcast.

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It's not many hot takes from me, but
that one I'm pretty darn serious about.

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But Dr.

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Porges is not applying the
idea of an algorithm to.

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Math or to social media
or to making a sandwich.

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He's discussing it more
in terms of behavior.

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And in the paper, he illustrates that
the traditional behavioral model is

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cause and effect or trigger and response.

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One example is a traffic light changing
from green to yellow or to red, and

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that results in some sort of response.

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So when it goes to yellow, the
driver slows down the vehicle at red.

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The vehicle, the driver
stops the vehicle entirely.

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And with green, the driver would go.

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There's a stimulus and a response.

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Another example is a dog
hearing a can opener.

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And expecting food.

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The stimulus or trigger would
be the sound of a can opener.

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The behavioral response would be that the
dog runs to the kitchen and expects food.

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One more example would be employee
performance and a monthly bonus.

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The stimulus or a trigger.

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Would be the introduction of
a performance-based monthly

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bonus, like an incentive.

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The behavioral response would be
that the employee or employees

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increase their work output.

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Or improve the quality of their work
to meet the criteria for the bonus.

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Stimulus response.

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That's the traditional way of looking at
behavior, but in this paper, When looking

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at the polyvagal theory as an algorithm.

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Dr.

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Porges suggests that the there's
a middle piece that's missing

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here, which is the step-by-step
process for getting the output.

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Porges suggests that the political
theory acts as an algorithm.

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Between the stimuli.

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And the behavioral response.

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So the driver does not simply break
when the traffic light turns red.

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The political theory provides the
algorithm in between the traffic

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light and the driver breaking.

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So that would be the traffic
light changes to red.

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And then the political theory acts as
an algorithm and I'll get more detailed.

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And that results in the behavior
of braking or some other behavior.

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So between the red light and the
behavior, there is an autonomic

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process that calculates the context and
spits out the behavior of the driver.

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Algorithms have to have a goal to
them, a reason or an objective that

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frames, the processing of the inputs.

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Like I said before social media
companies, they may want to

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increase clicks on certain types
of content and reduce others.

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So they changed their
algorithm to meet that goal.

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For example, if YouTube wanted to
enhance polyvagal theory information

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they could do so by changing the
parameters of their algorithm.

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My content then would be input.

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Then it would go through the
YouTube algorithm or formula.

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And result in maybe getting more clicks.

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But the algorithm isn't
just acting by itself.

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There is a, a goal that it is.

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Spitting out or leaning toward.

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If we returned to the algorithm of making
the sandwich, the goal is to make a

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sandwich, the steps or the algorithm.

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Meet that goal or result in a sandwich.

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So the end result of an algorithm
may not be specifically known,

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but it may generally be known.

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Like we don't know the way that the
sandwich will look or the way it's

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going to taste, but we can still use
the algorithm of making a sandwich.

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To get the general and
result of a sandwich.

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So if the political theory was an
algorithm, What would the goal be?

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Well, the political theory is
really a compilation of many ideas.

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Neuroception autonomic
primary and mixed states.

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Co-regulation.

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How our senses are used in
neuroception all kinds of

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things that go into the theory.

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But what do all these
pieces when put together?

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What do they strive for?

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What's the goal of these pieces?

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Within us as organisms.

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And that would be survival and
homeostasis or optimal functioning.

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That's the goal.

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That's the goal of the political
theory in working as an algorithm is

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to increase the chances of survival.

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And if surviving then to increase the
use of bodily resources for homeostasis.

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Or optimal functioning.

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Survival and optimal
functioning are always the goal.

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At all times.

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Even when we're making a sandwich
or when a traffic light turns red.

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So the algorithm of the polyvagal
theory, even when there was a

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traffic light that turns red.

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Or even when we have to make a
sandwich, the algorithm of survival and

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optimal functioning is still active.

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So the pieces of the polyvagal theory act
as the algorithm leading to a behavior.

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The states that are your political
state safety, flight fight, shutdown

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or the mixed states as well.

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The state is an intervening variable.

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So when the traffic light turns red,
and the driver has a response, the

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state of the driver is the algorithm.

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The state of the driver is a
variable that shouldn't be ignored.

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But, you know, like I know that
the state of the body changes.

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And can actually get, even get
stuck like a defensive state.

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We can get stuck there
in a traumatized state.

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So the inputs, the context of the
situation that doesn't change,

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but the algorithm kind of does.

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At least the way I'm understanding
it and that can lead to different

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behaviors, even with the same context.

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For example, the red light
is still the red light.

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But the states.

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Can be with more or less safety leading
to different results, like coming

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to a stop and following the rule.

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Or speeding up at ignoring it.

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If you're in a safety state, you're
probably more likely to follow

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the rules and come to a gentle,
complete stop at a red light.

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If you're in a dysregulated flight
fight state, you might be less

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likely to, and you might be more
likely to actually speed up.

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And ignore the red light or at
least ignore the the yellow light.

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But here in my lovely city of Stockton,
California, there is a serious

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problem of people running red lights.

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If you live here, please knock it off.

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It's it's really bad.

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Another hot take for you.

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That's the general idea of the algorithm.

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It's an intervening variable, the
political theory and what state someone

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is in is an intervening variable.

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It's not something that we could ignore
and just look at stimulus and response.

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There's something happening
that's processing the stimulus

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and outputting the response.

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So let's think about this
algorithm and other contexts.

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Like students in your classroom.

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If you're a teacher, Or your communication
with your loved ones, or if you're

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a therapist and you have clients.

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What's the potential of their
behavior based on their algorithms.

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Like I said before the
context may not change.

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The red light is still the red light.

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So I'm going to ask you.

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Is there something about the
inputs that we can change?

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Can we do things to change
the context to shift someone's

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state to get a different result?

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Because if we shift the state, the
result is going to be different as well.

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Or if we help to shift the state.

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And this is exactly why in my
polyvagal trauma relief system.

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I highly emphasize the environment
and manipulating one's environment.

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This is the starting point, I think.

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If you don't have a safe environment,
If you don't have safe context or in

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our algorithmic a world right now,
if we don't have safe inputs, save

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context, then the results or the
behaviors, the thoughts, the emotions.

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All of those are going to be with
less safety because the inputs have

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less safety or partially that's why.

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So in these different contexts of our
lives, or even for yourself in your

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own self-regulation whether you're in
the political trauma release system

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or not, can you set passive safety
cues, things that just provide you

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with safe context without having
to actively do anything about it.

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Can you set yourself up with this constant
stream of passive safety neuroception?

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And then can you build on that
through more active means?

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So for yourself or in your professional
capacity, or maybe, you know, as a

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teacher or in your home environment,
your family, can you create

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more safety in your environment?

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Can you create more safety in the
structure, the rules and the norms.

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Can you create more safety in the
predictability of the environment?

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All of these things are going to
act as inputs that will help shift

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someone's state to more safety.

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And potentially lead to
more safety as an output.

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And by the way, You're an input.

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You are part of the
context of other people.

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So, what are you giving off as far as
being an input into their algorithm?

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Are you giving safety that will be
processed by their algorithm and then

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have a different outcome or a more
positive outcome for everybody involved?

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We of course don't control
other people's behaviors, but

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we absolutely influence them.

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And I think one of the ways that
we influenced them as by changing

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what cues that we're giving them.

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Which is then processed
by their algorithm.

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Basically then, do the best you can to
be a safe input for their algorithm.

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I also kind of wonder with this,
is there a predictive nature?

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Or predictive potential to the
political theory as an algorithm.

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Just on a conceptual level, we can make
inferences about someone's behavior based

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on what we know about their algorithm.

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Or what we know about their current
states and they're stuck date as well.

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So I know that overstimulating someone
in shutdown is probably not going to help

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and might even lead to further shutdown.

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I would need to calm myself down and
align with them in an environment

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that's conducive to shut down.

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So I know enough about that person's
algorithm to make some changes.

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Because I can likely predict that
some pieces or some inputs of the

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environment are going to have a less
beneficial result for, for them.

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In my professional capacity, you
know, working as a therapist.

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I know that someone who's stuck in freeze
likely will not do well with telling

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their trauma narrative again and again.

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I know that for that person, it
likely may result in more significant

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shutdown and numbing and association.

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In other words, I know enough
about their algorithm to change

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the inputs that I'm giving them.

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So I know that part of
shifting their state.

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And helping them meet their
therapeutic goals is good.

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Involve building the strength
of their safety state.

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And then we might be able to go into
their trauma narrative if they want to.

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So what if we knew there.

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State or their algorithm.

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What if we also knew their vehicle
efficiency, what if we had access to.

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Vega efficiency measurements.

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And we had access to self reports.

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Internal sensations.

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And we had behavior reports
from their daily life.

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Maybe they're keeping a log.

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What if we had observational data
and self-report autonomic data.

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Yeah, tons of data.

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And I don't think anyone's
asked you for that.

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But all of this actually
really might help too.

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Build or paint.

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A clearer picture of
that person's algorithm.

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And might actually help to inform
more beneficial treatments.

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Is it necessary?

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No, I don't think so.

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And again, I don't think I
want to ask you for that.

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I think it's kind of cool though.

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But that level of.

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Objectifying one's
trauma recovery journey.

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Nah, I dunno.

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It, it kinda, it does
something to it that.

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Takes away.

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Some of the luster of the journey,
but that might be what someone wants.

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Somebody might want that level of.

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Of data and that more.

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Medical model.

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And that's actually
probably more of like a.

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Elite sport training model.

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I would think.

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I do think the journey aspect
of this is much more important.

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Then the objective.

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Measurement nature of it.

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I, I know they can go hand in hand
that those can exist together.

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But it, I feel like it's generally.

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Possible to go too far.

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In either direction.

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But I do think a healthy
balance can be struck.

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Stricken.

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Stroking.

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One final thought on the
polyvagal theory as an algorithm.

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The algorithm always leads us toward
safety towards self-regulation.

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Toward co-regulation towards
survival toward homeostasis toward

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optimizing our bottle, your resources.

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That is the goal of the Al algorithm.

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Is to lead us in that direction.

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No matter what state you're in.

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It's always about survival.

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00:16:55,349 --> 00:16:57,509
It's always about
optimizing our resources.

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Yeah, trauma gets in the way.

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Sodas.

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Society on numerous levels, government
religious, other institutions.

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Tons of stuff gets in the way.

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Fear gets in the way.

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Distractions get in the way
behavioral adaptations get in the way.

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But.

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For ourselves as organisms,
as living things.

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That is.

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Always the goal of the algorithm is to.

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Optimize resources.

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Or ensure survival is as best it can.

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Therefore, the goal is always
eventually to get to safety and

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co-regulation self-regulation.

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That algorithm, if you listen
closely enough you'll feel

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the poles of the algorithm.

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You'll feel the poles towards
safety and tore connection.

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It is there.

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It's not always easy to identify.

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It's not always easy to feel and
to tolerate, but they are there.

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00:17:50,329 --> 00:17:54,529
It is possible though, to listen and
have more awareness and curiosity.

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00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:56,499
As to what pulls us.

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00:17:57,159 --> 00:18:00,069
What we feel those safety
tugs in the right direction.

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00:18:00,969 --> 00:18:03,369
As you feel those you can
continue to follow those.

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00:18:03,489 --> 00:18:06,129
That algorithm will take
you in the right direction.

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00:18:06,129 --> 00:18:06,609
I think.

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00:18:07,109 --> 00:18:08,489
And it might just start
with your environment.

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00:18:08,989 --> 00:18:11,299
And setting yourself up with
some passive safety cues.

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00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:13,989
Thanks so much for joining
me on stuck now, broken.

335
00:18:14,489 --> 00:18:16,349
If you're ready to take
the next step for you.

336
00:18:16,349 --> 00:18:19,679
I do have my stuck not broken
total access membership.

337
00:18:20,339 --> 00:18:23,219
Within the total access
membership, you get all of my.

338
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:27,209
Trauma recovery courses that are
built on the political theory.

339
00:18:27,209 --> 00:18:28,529
You get my private community.

340
00:18:29,249 --> 00:18:32,189
You get to meet with me twice
a month in virtual meetups.

341
00:18:32,249 --> 00:18:34,829
Ask any questions you need to clarify.

342
00:18:35,309 --> 00:18:39,239
What you need to clarify on your own
personal trauma recovery journey.

343
00:18:39,739 --> 00:18:40,549
You won't be alone.

344
00:18:40,579 --> 00:18:42,259
The community is fantastic.

345
00:18:42,759 --> 00:18:43,899
You won't have to wonder.

346
00:18:44,399 --> 00:18:47,699
And I packaged every piece of
self-regulation knowledge that I have.

347
00:18:48,269 --> 00:18:50,279
Into those three courses.

348
00:18:51,149 --> 00:18:53,429
That you can use anytime
you want at your own pace.

349
00:18:53,929 --> 00:18:56,599
So if you're ready to take those
next steps in getting unstuck.

350
00:18:56,989 --> 00:18:58,429
And he don't want to spend a ton of money.

351
00:18:58,979 --> 00:19:00,059
This is your invitation.

352
00:19:00,059 --> 00:19:01,409
This is your personal invitation.

353
00:19:01,919 --> 00:19:05,609
To consider subscribing to
stuck now broken total access.

354
00:19:06,109 --> 00:19:07,789
Thanks so much for being
a part of the podcast.

355
00:19:07,789 --> 00:19:12,349
I do look forward to the day rugged to
greet you in the total access community.

356
00:19:12,849 --> 00:19:14,199
Thank you so much for
listening fellow stuck.

357
00:19:14,229 --> 00:19:17,319
Now I do hope this episode has
been a helpful resource for you.

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00:19:17,769 --> 00:19:21,279
And learning about and applying
the polyvagal theory to your

359
00:19:21,279 --> 00:19:22,599
trauma recovery journey.

360
00:19:23,469 --> 00:19:23,709
Bye.