And especially when I was going to the white school and walking against the grain of the black kids going to the public school who were calling out, oh, she thinks she's white. You know, that was common. I hear it from mentees today that are young people. They still get, oh, she, oh, she thinks she's white because they're smart.

Mm-hmm.

Or because they, you know, make different choices in their life that don't follow the culture. So, you know, that's something that interesting enough persists in its own ways, but like that's the double consciousness that's happening for all black people as I understand it, and I'm not all black people. And then the other side is that when you're raised culturally white. You default back to this cultural whiteness and you almost have this, um, way of looking at yourself with a negative bias. We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk about this topic 'cause we were afraid

A Black Executive Perspective.

We are coming to you live from our new BEP studio for another thought provoking episode of A Black Executive Perspective Podcast, A safe space. We discuss all matters regarding race, culture, and those uncomfortable topics people tend to avoid. I'm your host Tony Tidbit, so we are very excited about today's show. But before we get started, we wanna remind everyone to check out our partners at Code M Magazine, whose mission is to save the black family by first saving the black man. So check them out@codemmagazine.com. That is code m magazine.com. Let me ask you guys a question. What does it mean to grow up fluent in white culture while holding a black identity? You're still learning to claim it's interesting, right? Well, today, in a deeply personal and wide raging conversation, Grace Fooden, a seasoned executive in fashion and beauty, and the CEO and co-founder of a beauty brand, joins a black executive perspective to share her journey on navigating corporate spaces. As a biracial black woman, Grace will share about living with the internalized double consciousness, not just between black and white, but between the culture that raised her and the truth she had to reclaim. She will impact the emotional labor of fitting in, the healing power of mentorship, and how black women can move from fractured identity. To integrated leadership. Lemme tell you a little bit about my good friend Grace Fooden. She's, as I stated, she's a seasoned brand and me merchandising executive With over 20 years of leadership experience in fashion, beauty, and consumer goods. As a biracial black woman raised in a predominantly white environment, Grace has spent her career navigating the complex emotional terrain of being the only one in the room today. She channels those lived experiences into purpose-driven leadership. Grace mentors, black women and girls through the collective identity at USC and serves as the executive mentor of CRA Women of Color Retail Alliance. A sought after speaker and writer on race, identity and corporate culture. She's passionate about helping others lead with authenticity and spaces that often demand performance over presence. Grace, my friend. Welcome to A Black Executive Perspective Podcast, my sister

Tony. So nice to be here.

Well, I, look, we really appreciate you coming here and, and being willing to be open and share your journey and talk about this topic that obviously, you know, um, definitely affected you. But to be fair, there's a lot of other people around the world who have dealt with the same thing or is dealing with the same thing. So we really appreciate you coming on to share. But before we get into the heavy stuff, let me just, let's talk a little bit, tell me a little bit about where you currently residing and a little bit about your family.

Yeah, so I'm based in Los Angeles, California. Um, I am. Relatively recently married to a lovely man who has three children, and because of him I now have three grandchildren and a fourth one on the way. Um, so, um, I'm part of a multiracial family from my origin, but his family is also multiracial. So it all combines into a great big soup.

I love it. I love it. And, you know, one of the things families are, are so important. Um, and, you know, at the end of the day, that's who we spend most of our time with, right? And so it's great to hear that, you know, you guys have a loving culture around you and a loving family and, and, um, a Brady Bunch type situation, which I love to hear. Right. But let me ask you this, you know, you, as, as we stated in your bio, you have, you're very well, uh, sought out. You travel the globe, you have a thriving business. You are, uh, helping other women of color and, and children. Uh, so you're very busy. So why did you wanna come on A Black Executive Perspective Podcast? Talk about this topic.

You know, I think this is a unique place that can showcase a story like mine, um, where I fit into the soup of what this podcast is. And I really don't know of another, uh, podcast. I've done many. Um, but that is as specifically addressing these experiences, um, of black executives.

Well, thank you, my sister, and we're glad you're here. So you, you, you seem like you chomping at the bit. You ready to talk about it?

Sure. Let's go.

Alright, let's talk about it. So look, let's do this right? You, you know, one of the things, um, you struggled with was growing up. Between two worlds. Okay. And I love to dive in first just to get a, just to go back and talk a little bit about your parents, their racial identity and how you grew up and, and talk about, um, before you got into your corporate life. Talk about the experiences of being a biracial child in a world that makes people choose, um, one versus the other.

Yeah. Um, happy to talk about it. Um, my father was white and Jewish. Um, my mother was a very dark skinned black woman. They met in as civil rights activist in the 1940s. So this was before it was cool. Um. Uh, things happen. Like my father was in, uh, jail on a hunger strike for one of the events that they, um, that they did at a nightclub trying to integrate it. Um, wow. And then in 1950 they, with a bunch of other very educated, mostly multiracial couples, started a housing co-op that they got financed. And, um, it, their whole purpose was to change the perception of black and mixed race people moving into your neighborhood instead of there goes the neighborhood. It was like we're bringing the neighborhood up. Right. So that's the context of which I was formed in. They had children late in life. They were highly educated. My father has a PhD from the University of Chicago. My mother had a master's degree and, um, they raised us. Wanting us to have the very best education and that very best education in Chicago was at the University of Chicago's laboratory schools. They had a grammar school in high school. And so from the age of seven, I went there and my sister started in middle school. And that was predominantly a white culture, but more than that, and what makes us exceptional is that the blacks that were there were very wealthy and they lived within their own culture and we were not raised within that culture. So we associated both of us more on the white side. We were more accepted there. And that was a really unusual way to grow up.

No. So when you say the blacks that went to that school, they were more, uh, focused within even they were wealthy, but they were more focused within their culture. What do you mean?

Th they were focused in a culture that was complete in, in living in neighborhoods and in a culture that was completely different than the white culture, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So this is like Johnson's kids from Johnson Publishing that, you know, was Ebony, uh, Ramsey Lewis's kids were there, you know, very well off blacks who lived in a black enclave, but we did not live in that enclave.

Got it, got it, got it. So they lived with other, other wealthy black people, right? Yes. And, and, and so, you know, they were living with people like themselves, and at the end of the day, you wasn't because you were living in a white neighborhood, is that what I'm hearing?

Or in this cooperative That was within this interracial, uh, neighborhood, but definitely with a cultural bias towards being white. My mother didn't speak in Ebonics that she grew up with. Ever. I never heard her speak that way, but clearly she's from the south, from Georgia. That's not what she really originally sounded like. So this was very purposeful. Um, and I think it was to help us succeed in the world, not thinking about this missing piece really out of a place of wanting to help us get to the best place we could in the world.

Did you, when you were living in that, especially going to school and, and with the other black kids that were obviously in their culture, and then you were obviously in another culture, did you question yourself a little bit about that? Oh, sure. Sure. Or it was just normal? Tell us a little bit about that.

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Did the black kid say anything to you at all?

You know, it was an awkward, um, no, mostly no. And it was an awkward relationship. Um, they would try to, sometimes I would feel uncomfortable, you know? Um, I wasn't really the most forthcoming 'cause I didn't know that world. They made me inherently feel uncomfortable. 'cause that's what I was raised to believe. Right. That I should be uncomfortable with you.

Wow, that's interesting. But lemme ask you, let's look at the opposite of that. How did the white kids make you feel?

You know, I had my group of friends, I have, you know, my best girlfriends too this day are people that I met when I was in kindergarten and, and when I first moved to the lab school at seven, um, they came to my wedding recently. You know, these are, these are tried and true friends and they did not see this bias. Not that their families didn't, I, I saw that sometimes within their families. Um, but dating became a problem, you can imagine, right? Um. White guys weren't gonna ask me to the dance. Right? And then eventually I started to look a certain way. And so some of the black guys would ask me, and I didn't really know what to do with that, you know? So it was all very, it was all very, um, awkward. Let's say.

Well, did your parents talk to you at all? Because look, let's be fair, your parents were activists, okay? So they were, as you were saying, trying to, to integrate a nightclub. Your father did a hunger strike in, in, in, in jail. Um, they wanted I in night, I believe in 1940. So it's probably 'cause in 1967, 3% of the United States of married couples were interracial, only 3%. So in the 1940s, I, you kidding me, if it was a percentage, that would be high. Right? So they were fighting against these things. But did they ever sit down and chat with you and your sister and talk about the things that you would have to deal with, or more importantly, how you felt a pull one way or the other in terms of the, of where you stood in terms of your own identity?

Yeah, the short answer is no, they didn't. Um, which is, you know, unusual right? When you think about it. I mean, my parents got married 17 years before Lovings, right? So, right, exactly. You know, it was legal where they got married. My mother's mother was the only one who attended their wedding. But, you know, they were really brave trailblazers. Um, no question. I think that in um, some ways they were trying to make it as if it didn't matter anymore, and at the same time, they were becoming more middle class. Right. So then this, you know, they were less the rebel when I was growing up. Then, then I knew the stories of their history. Got it. And I didn't really got any of them until I was an adult. It, I actually got it, call my dad one day and said, okay, now I need to hear the stories. Um, so I think it was a combination of things and it, and again, there, um, there reason to do this, they thought was to get us a ahead with the best education possible and that would change the world without thinking of the social implications.

Yeah. And, and look, I I can imagine, you know, that they probably wasn't the only one, right? Because at the end of the day, you always are trying to make things better for your kids. And, you know, and I, I can, I can relate to that a little bit, right? With my own daughter, right? My wife is white, you know, I have my, my two daughters are biracial and, you know, I didn't really, I thought that, you know, especially we're, we're in the, you know, they were born in 2007 to 2008. Okay. And I didn't really sit down and chat with them about black and white and the whole nine yards because I didn't, it, it was, I thought it was different when I grew up. Right. Yeah. And then I remember, uh, I think you saw the episode that we did two, black to be white, two white to be Black. Right. And my daughter was in that episode, and some of the things that she was sharing, it kind of blew me away because I, you know, I, I just didn't have a clue. Um, and so I can understand it because you think that you get to a certain level and that doesn't matter anymore. Okay. So I can definitely understand it. But let's talk about, um, with you though. So you talked about having this double consciousness talk. Explain, uh, let's dive into your double consciousness in the pool, the gravitational pool that you were dealing with.

Yeah, I mean I of course didn't know what double, double consciousness is actually until relatively recently, you know, when you think about things. 'cause again, wasn't raised with a lot of black culture. The only black culture I got was through my mother's, um, best gay friend who we called uncle, who worked for the Johnson Publishing in a senior executive position and would give us, you know, little bits of black culture through like black magazines, uh, or comic books that Ebony put out. You know, things that would help us. 'cause I think he was aware that we were missing something. Um, but that was the only, um, little bit of that culture that we got. Um, and that just real

quick though, did, did you spend time with your mother's side of, of the family?

So, my mother's, uh, side of the family was only her mother who, um, was the one who went to their wedding. And, uh, she, uh, had a heart attack and started have a bit of dementia and moved into the housing co-op into her own unit of the housing co-op. Um, and so I saw her as this aging woman who was, you know, losing her memories. Although she had been a hardworking woman who raised my mother and got her to where she was. Um, and my father's side of the family, um, disassociated from him for 30 years. So I met his side of the family when I was 20.

But your mother didn't have a, a a big family of cousins, and, and you didn't spend time with your mother's family pretty much at all?

I don't know how much more there was of it. I knew her father had passed and when she passed, I met some cousins of hers, but they may have been second cousins that I had never met before in my life. And I was an adult at this point.

Okay, go finish your thought. I just wanted to, because you were saying the guy, uh, you know, showed you some magazines and, and stuff. You're like, oh my God. And I'm like, wait a minute, your mother's black. You, you haven't spent any time. So that's was reason my question, but go ahead, finish.

Yeah. So that was the reason why there was no culture and she wasn't, um, she wasn't really showing us that at all. Right. Again, she didn't speak the way she grew up. She didn't associate with that many people. The only thing I, I remember that she did that was specifically black, was that she attended, uh, operation, uh, from Jesse Jackson, which was in the neighborhood in the hood, not where we lived in the hood. And she would go there on Sunday sometimes, and that's the only thing she did. And, and then that stopped and went away. And again, they became more middle class. Um, and I think they pushed away from that experience. I can't remember what the original question was, but if there's, if you wanna No, no,

no, no, no. I just, the double consciousness part, right? Oh, yes. The double

consciousness. So this is where this comes from. I didn't really have a black side at all, right? I had the white side and I had the perception of what it means to be black that we don't talk about, that's not allowed to be said. And then much later, as, as an adult, and really fairly recently, I start to have a relationship with the African American community. And I, I really see that I actually have three consciousness, right? I have the two that all black people have, and then I have this other, one of this cultural bias that I was raised with, of being white.

Can you dive in a little bit more of the three consciousness? 'cause you just said something, which is key, right? And you said black people have two consciousness. Right. And I, if I remember correctly, I think it was WEB Du Bois. Yes. Who came up with that back in the early 19 hundreds. Yes. That the double consciousness that black people have. So can you just dive in a little bit deeper?

Yeah. One is that they are living in this white world and the other is this, I have this other consciousness as a black person. And that, and from that comes code switching. I don't have code switching because I only had one code. Right. But I had this understanding that. The world was perceiving me differently, right? You're not getting asked to the dance, you're not, all these things are happening differently. People are reacting to me differently on the street. Right. Especially when I'm with my dad. You know? So I had this consciousness of those things, and especially when I was going to the white school and walking against the grain of the black kids going to the public school who are calling out, oh, she thinks she's white. You know, that was common. I hear it from mentees today that are young people. They still get, oh, she, oh, she thinks she's white because they're

smart,

or because they, you know, make different choices in their life that don't follow the culture. So, you know, that's something that interesting enough persists in its own ways, but like that's the double consciousness that's happening for all black people as I understand it, and I'm not all black people. And then the other side is that when you're raised culturally white, you default back to this cultural whiteness and you almost have this. Um, way of looking at yourself with a negative bias.

So let me ask you this, and then I want to dive into the, the last statement you said. So, and, and it goes to what my daughter said in that, in the episode two, black to be White, two white to be black, is that we had, she wanted a American girl doll. Mm-hmm. And we got, we, you know, we bought her American girl Darl for, um, Christmas and she was five six. And she said, Hey, you know, when I was looking, I noticed that I didn't see anybody that looked like me. Mm-hmm. Okay. And you know, I see a white and I see, but I don't see me. Right. So when you were looking in the mirror, when you were, you know, getting dressed to go to school or, or going, getting ready to go out, and you looked in the mirror, what did you see?

That's an interesting question. I never thought of it that way, but it reminds me of a story. I in third grade sat next to a very dark skinned black girl at the lab school. Right. Well, off parents, you know, I'm sitting next to her. I, my mother had given me a black doll and it was a very dark skinned black doll that was kind of the only kind of doll There was. Later she found some middle tone black dolls for us, and we each had one. But I had that one black doll, and I told it to this girl. I sat next to like, it was a secret, Hey, I have a black doll. And she looked at me like, all my dolls are black. What are you talking about? You know? Right, right. Well, for me, that's the difference. Right? Like, this was a secret to me and to her, this was normal.

Right, right, right. You know,

so how I perceive myself is like, this isn't my secret.

This is your secret. And then, and that dovetails into what you said a few minutes ago too, right? Because of the consciousness, um, that you were brought up in. Yeah. That sometimes you felt ashamed of yourself.

Yeah.

Right. Talk a little bit about that. What, what, when you say you felt ashamed, talk a little bit about that.

Yeah, that's, I mean, every, well, the obvious one is the hair, right? There was a science class and we measured hair length. And the point was that, um, all men have shorter hair and all women have longer hair. And I had braids that were about down to here, and it was the seventies. And so there were some boys with some long hair, but I had the shortest hair of any girl in the class. And I, and it was, and it was natural, but it had been braided into two pigtails. And I felt incredibly conscious of that, that I was held out as the one that was different.

Mm-hmm. Wow. Wow. So you're growing up like this? Um, and I can, IM, I mean, when did it like. A lightning boats, uh, came down and struck you. Okay. Talk a little bit before we go talk a little bit about, because you've been an executive, you've been in corporate spaces, you've, you created your own skincare line, you've traveled the globe. Okay. And, you know, as we said in the monologue, you know, you've been in a lot of places where you were the only, only person of color. Okay. So talk a little bit about that and then I wanna talk about, you know, uh, when were, were you on a, when were you on a donkey, you know, on the road to Damascus and then a lightning boat struck and you said, oh no. Alright, so let's, let's dive into that.

Well, the first lightning bolt was actually before I got outta high school.

Okay. Let's hear.

Junior as a, as a sophomore going into my junior year. I knew something was wrong and I didn't know how I was gonna figure out, I knew I was gonna have to figure out this black thing. I mean, that's how it was being, that's how I was talking about it. So you were struggling,

like, and you was like, I gotta figure out this black thing, right? When you say this black thing, like, what, what, what did you mean?

This cultural, um, I'm living in this world and culturally this is what's happening, and now I'm old enough that I'm realizing I gotta figure this out. How am I gonna be in this world? Right? Mm-hmm. There's a couple of different strands of things going on, and there's a whole mess of things that I don't fit into at all. And so I, at uh, 15 went to the public school, signed up, did not tell my parents, and decided I was gonna go to the public school where the black kids were and figure this thing out. I was gonna do it. I was completely wrong. Um, in doing that because I got put in the honors class with the white kids and I got teased even more. Right. So it, it didn't, but it was my first aha moment was that moment when I said, and I went home and you can imagine my parents already paid the tuition. There's no getting the deposit back, you know?

Right, right.

And I'm just decided I'm doing this right. Um, not knowing at that time how rebellious my parents were with when they were young. So I feel like actually it's my legacy to have done something like that now in the corporate world. Um, you know, I got along, you know, I got along well because in corporate fashion, most of these are white ladies that I'm working with on all levels, except possibly the CE o's, usually a white man. And I knew how to behave around them. I was raised around this. I knew how to play this game right. And I knew what to avoid. What not to talk about. Or if I wanted to pull some emotional heartstrings, I knew what I could talk about in my story. So I, I played it, um, without thinking it was playing, it just thinking, this is how I, this is how I'm gonna have to do things. This is how it's gonna work for me. Um, and that's how I managed as an executive for a long time. Um, I did find myself sometimes having outbursts at work where I would like really call someone on the carpet in a, in a deep way. And they, and I was probably right, but it was the wrong way to do it. And it was giving me an angry black woman thing. So I thought, I'm not gonna do that anymore because I can't afford that. So, you know, I, I kept pushing it down and pushing it down and pushing it down until, you know, these, every five years or something, there'd be an eruption, right? Something would happen. I couldn't not, I couldn't hold it back anymore. I had a lot of therapy through my life. Most of them were white. I finally had a black therapist, and this is interesting. I treated her worse than any therapist I ever had in my life. I did, I never treated her right. And I thought, wow. So that's me treating this black woman the way a white person would treat her a little less than the other ones. So that's sort of part of my experience with that.

Wow. You know, I, so I'm, I'm listening to you and I'm wondering, uh, the question I have, and I have a bunch, but the question I have is, is when you, you know, and again, you said, Hey, when I was younger I thought I was white. And sometimes right. Did you hear a lot of being in, uh, a white culture being with a lot of people, you being the only person or a few, um, did you hear derogatory things about black people white in your presence?

The only times I really heard derogatory things is when I moved to Atlanta, um, for work. You know, that was the first time I was living in the South. Um, again, working with mostly, you know, white sorority girls, you know, that whole game and, you know, they had coded it a little bit, um, but it was there, right? Not our kind, that kind of thing. Um, so I just let it slide, you know, I could, at this point, this is later in my career, I'm just thinking I'm a mercenary at this point. I'm just getting through this, right? Doing what I have to, to get through this, right. Calling it out is not gonna do anything at this moment in time for me, for them, for the world. Um, and so that was, that was like the, a taste of how that felt. Um,

right.

And that was later on. That was me totally aware that I'm letting it slide.

Yeah, the reason I ask is because, you know, when you just got finished saying, Hey, I had, you know, three or four therapists, three of 'em were white, or two of 'em were white, and then I had the black therapist and I treated her the worst outta the, the other three I wanted. Where did that come from? Why did you treat her? See, you see my point here is because something had to be going on you, and it may have been subliminal, uh, but. You just don't say, I'm gonna treat these people. And, and you didn't say it, you just did it. These people, I feel is, and I'm making this up, you didn't say this, but these people I feel is, has the credentials. This person, I don't think, and you didn't say that, but I'm just saying, where did that, that part came that this person, this black person ain't on the same level as these people. Right. You see my point here? Because that just doesn't happen overnight. There has to be some type of, uh, uh, uh, uh, visual or, uh, vocal or verbiage that says these people are this and these people are that. And let's be fair though, too, you're growing up and the world is showing you that every day. Yeah. Okay. Just, you know, you, you, you had protests and you talked about Jesse Jackson and, and just all the things. So that's why I was just trying to find out how did you and it is, and look, let's be fair though. For you to say this and share it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it means the world. Okay. Because this is how we all have stories and journeys, and at the end of the day, talking about them, not only in my opinion, not only helps us deal with it and helps us go, but also shares and help other individuals as well. Yeah. Right. Yeah. 'cause here's the key. You're not the only one. And, and it is just this fact. So I was just trying to understand how did that, uh, uh, situation unfold your thought process in terms of this person? I, I, I treated this person this way, and these other people I didn't. And it was based on this color of their skin.

It wasn't, um, thought about. It was at this point my upbringing. Mm-hmm. And it was how, I was just noticing I was doing it, but I didn't stop doing it. I'd show up late. I would not show up at all and not call. I would never have done that before. That's just not how I behaved in my professional life. And it was only that I started noticing it, that I was doing it with this one person, right, who was the only one, probably the only black relationship in my life at that moment. And I was treating her differently. I was treating her how I saw white people treat other black people just a little bit less, just a little bit less. Just didn't matter quite so much if I didn't show up and I just called her later.

Did she call you out on it at all? Did she say anything? Oh yeah,

she did. Um,

if you like what you hear and wanna join us on this journey of making uncomfortable conversations comfortable, please subscribe to A Black Executive Perspective Podcast on YouTube, apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hit subscribe now to stay connected for more episodes that challenge, inspire and lead the change. And she also brought up something that, and I, when you said two or three, I'm talking, I probably went to five, or five or more therapists, like a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, and she called out something that I hadn't realized had happened in my life, which affected my bonding with my mother. My parents had been in a major car accident when I was one years old. Um, no seat belts at that time. They didn't exist sitting on my mother's lap. Mm-hmm. Bad car accident. My father broke his back, my sister broke her leg, and my mother was in a full body cast for a year between when I was one and two. So we had some bond bonding issues and she figured that out. She got that story outta me. She'd mentioned, I'd mentioned that accident, and I don't remember much. And she kept saying, you gotta go and find out about what happened there. And she drilled me on it and drilled me on it, and drilled me on it until I, I ended up talking to my father and my sister about it and find out, you know, I hadn't been held as a child. Ah. So that was a huge unlock for me and the connection to my mother, who also happens to be black. Right, right. So you kind of see how that plays into it as well. Mm. But again, with all these different therapists, she's the one who brought that out.

Well, that, that, oh, I can imagine that was emotional as well though, right? Because Yeah. Really. Yeah. You know, and, and it proves that a lot of times what we deal with as adults really go, goes back to our childhood. Mm-hmm. Okay. And, um, and then we don't know. And then we have these certain habits or certain thought processes, um, and we think it had to do something in college or this and that, and nine times outta 10 is back, um, when you were a child. So I think I, I'm glad you shared that. 'cause I would imagine that was a great breakthrough in terms of, I could imagine, right? I

still didn't treat her right. I still didn't, she's an actress. She helped me.

Well, I

still didn't treat her

right, not,

oh, no.

So let me ask you this, you know, one of the things that a lot of, uh, people of color struggle with in corporate America is the, um, detention of trying to be themselves and then also the performance, especially at a high leadership standpoint, right? And what do I mean by that? You know, we, I, I can go by my own experience, right? I've seen, uh, my white fellow executives make mistakes, uh, do the wrong thing and nothing really happens, right? And then I've seen, including myself, where, you know, you have a flawless record. Uh, they applaud you for everything that you do, and then you make one mistake. And then everything else is like, forgotten about. Mm-hmm. All right. And then now they're starting to question, well, did we make the right decision hiring him or hiring her, or is you see, so talk a little bit about that in your experience.

Yeah. I performed on a very high level. I, I should get several Oscars. Um, because, you know, I, I knew what I was doing. I knew what I could say. I knew how far I could go. Right. And I pulled on their heart, their liberal heartstrings. I did all kinds of men. So when

you say pulled on their heartstrings, like, what do you mean? Gimme some examples?

All kinds of shenanigans, you know, that I knew that them knowing certain, I could tell if certain people would, by knowing my story, be affected by it and therefore see me in a different light. Right. Got it, got it, got it. One where they would want to help promote me or, oh, you know. That she, she's special. So,

you know, that type of, so you told them your biracial story of mother, your father being Jewish and your mother being black, and then they gave you, not everybody, but certain people gave you sympathy and they, is that what I'm hearing

strategically? I, I used very strategically. Right. Okay. I knew it was somebody that would be meaningful to them, and I knew when to just not even mention it at all, you know? So it was very strategic the way I thought about it. Got it. Um, yeah, so I was, I was performing full on, I mean, Meryl Streep go away. I got it. You know, I, I did this all day long, you know, I was in a situation once where I was working with all men. I followed every sports score, you know, I did, you know, I did the game right. And then I also, well, that's

part of the game. I, yeah, yeah. I get it. I get

it. I get it. But I also knew how to, when somebody would be affected by my story, I used it. I used it to my advantage.

Let me ask you this though. Did you see other, in, in your corporate life, did you see other people of color, black people, uh, Hispanic, Asian, be treated differently? You knew you, like you said, you could play the performance game, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But did you see them being singled out? Um, and, and be fair, they were just, they had an exceptional record. They had risen and did everything. They were working twice as hard. They did. They were, I'm not talking about people that wasn't performed. I'm talking about the highest level. Yeah. Did you see any difference in terms of how they were treated?

Yeah, no, I didn't see the difference in how they were treated. I more noticed how it affected their ability to perform at some times. Um, one woman became the vice president of Design at Gap. You know, that's a major title, right? And she was in a, was a co position with somebody that she worked with over a number of years, and he was a white guy and they both got let go at the same time. You know, these regimes change, these things happen. No big deal. He picked up and his life went on. 10, 15 years later, she is still in an emotional turmoil. Never got her career back on track again after that. So I saw that damage done because of how she felt about it differently than he felt about it. That's an example of the type of thing that I saw. Um, I saw other people, you know, again, that she was one very high level black woman. There aren't very many. I mostly didn't work with any, um, Iwo. I worked with one black man in a high level position who, you know, knew, definitely knew how to perform well, right. But we did kind of stay away from each other. Right. You don't wanna have all those black people next to each other, you know, so better them in. Right. I'm serious. No, no, no, no, no, no. I know you're serious and you're telling the truth because me and Chris say it all the time. Cocaine, go ahead, finish your thoughts. I just love, listen, I love your honesty. 'cause you are, you are telling the exact the truth. Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, and so, and then there were times where people thought we should be dating, you know, it was so funny. Oh man. But you know, he was a performer. He knew what he was doing. Um, right. Mostly there was no one, you know, I would say, aside from those two people mentioned, there were no significant high. Highly skilled African American people in my career until I met the woman who got me into mentoring.

Got it. Let me ask, let's go back to the, the triple consciousness. Okay. Let's go back to that. Right. And so, you know, you knew the game, okay, you could play the game, right? But let's just use these two people as examples, right? They had to, uh, not, they couldn't just be themselves. You could be yourself, okay. Yeah. They couldn't be themselves. Yes. Okay. So they had to go over here. Yeah. And then, and then be somebody else, just to, to not just to fit in, but to perform, to, you know, to get the accolades to make, to be one of the, one of the group, to be fair. Right? So they had to step over and they had to tap dance, they had to do whatever they need to do to be part of the group,

right?

Is that correct? Yes. Right. And so based on that, and then they go home and then now they gotta go back Yeah. To their regular life and they can sit back and talk junk or whatever the case may be. That's an emotional, and most people don't understand that that is an emotional toll.

Yes.

Right? That you can do the job, you can do it at a high level. You can lead people, you can create new designs, you can create new makeup, you can help scale the organization to and create more different revenue streams. You can do all these things, but you gotta be like this, you gotta talk like this, you gotta act like this. Okay. So really your job in terms of everything that you can do, the talent doesn't matter as much. Would you agree with that or not?

Absolutely. Absolutely It does. Yeah. Yeah, I, I experienced, I, I experienced other people experiencing that. Right. Obviously that wasn't my direct experience because I was being the way I was raised, right? That's that thing, and that triple consciousness comes in where I knew what those white people were doing on a level they didn't know I knew because I was raised just like them.

Wow. Wow. So let's talk about moving forward. So what did you do to move from that fractured identity, that consciousness? Okay. To now start, you know, how should I say, being a little bit more into self, into who you really are as a person. Talk a little bit about that. How did you, because that's a lot of up and down. I mean, and even to be fair, you know. Uh, you, you grew up, you were brought up white. Right. And to be fair, you didn't, you know, you, you had a lot to deal with. Okay. To be even fair, even brought up white. You had the black kids teasing you, you had some of the white kids, you know, a lot of 'em were great, but some of them wasn't. And, and so you still had to jump through hoops, right? Yeah. How did you finally get to, you know what? I'm okay with being me. How did you get to that level?

I was at the top of my game professionally. I was completely barren inside. I was really, you know, had lost a strong sense of myself and it was lonely. Um, and I had been divorced. My father had passed away. I went through some, some life experiences that begin to wake you up. But it wasn't until I was in that last corporate position, vice president at Ralph Lauren, um, and a, a black woman who was very bold to come to my office. She was below me and said, Hey, Grace, I have a mentoring program. Will you come and help and help it out? It would be great. And so I thought, why not? I'm not doing anything on Saturday. 'cause my life is very alone, you know? And even though I have all these things that everybody thinks are the things you want, I'm alone. And so I went and I did not fit in all the, it was the beginning of the resurgence of natural hair again, which I had gone through that for phases, but at this point, I, I had long blonde extensions like Beyonce, and they had every kind of natural hair you could. So I stood, stuck, stood out like a sore thumb. Um, so again, here I am with the black kids not wanting to associate with me, but I listened to this. Way she was running this program and I started learning things. So I realized I'm not only are these middle school kids learning something, I'm learning something, right. And I connected with one of those students who had special needs and really kind of adopted her for the rest of that eight week course. As well as learning with her about what is melanin, scientifically, and all kinds, you know, they did some great things and you know, we taught them about how to choose a profession and budgeting and all these different types of things. And um, at the end of that, I felt, even though again, the mostly black women did not associate with me and rejected me for the long blind hair, I somehow felt connected to something like this was my way in to the black community. This is something where I'm giving something, I'm getting something, and I'm connecting for the very first time. So I left, moved to California COVID. It stopped for a while and then it started again on in a virtual way. And I joined again still sometimes having that same feeling of not connected. Um, and then I was talking about it with one of my white friends. 'cause basically all my friends are white at this point. And I tell her that I am really excited and it's starting up again. I'm talking as I'm in the nail salon and I sit down next to a black woman in the nail salon and she has started this program at USC called the Collective Identity. And so through that program, now I'm dealing with college age girls. Um, now I'm dealing with um, now there's an east coast versus west coast black folk thing, right? West coast, black folks. Much easier to make your way into if you're me. It never stops the levels and levels. It's just levels of levels. And I did a and I did a speaking engagement for them and I was talking about walking to school, to the white school and the kids saying, oh, she thinks she's white. One of the girls raised her hand and said, oh, you know, that happened to me on the bus every single day in high school. 'cause I was in all the honors classes right near, she has a full ride at USC. She's smarter than all of them. Right, right. Um, but they're, they're calling her, oh, she thinks she's white 'cause she's smart. It's happening today. And that's when I realized there's a connection to where I was all those years ago and what they're, what's happening today, there's really no change in their life. Some parts of it is still there. And that further connected me in. So, you know, then I started to be able to open up and talk about it. Um, fashion companies and other people asked me and, uh, beauty companies started to ask me to speak to their teens. Um, I started writing about it on LinkedIn and that got a lot of attention. Um. And suddenly I was out. Right. It was like, it was like a gay person coming out. Like I came out now I'm a black person right now. I'm a biracial black person, and I'm telling you I was raised in white culture. And to say all of those words is all of me.

Right, right. I love it. And I love you, my sister. Um, that is, you know, that's a amazing journey. Um, like, can I ask you, you know, just listening, can I ask you a question? Um, you used the word connected a few times, you know, as we've been chatting. Um, have you, were you connected to your white friends or were they just your friends? Were you emotionally connected to them?

Uh, yeah, some of them. Yeah, those one. Okay. So you were from early days from those very, very early days. Now, that's not to say we didn't have a big split. Again when I changed schools, um, when dating started, you know, adolescents was tough, but we actually went back and talked about it after. So that's why I consider them my true friends.

Got it, got it. So you, you, you've had connected relationships. You just struggle to have that connection with black people because of the way you were brought up

relatively recently. Yeah.

Got it, got it, got it, got it. So let me ask you this. What would you tell, so look, you've my sister, you've been in a lot of corporate spaces. Like you said, you are at the top of the top levels, you know, what would you tell companies today that truly want to create environments where people don't have to choose? Jump through this world and that world. And just show up and be themselves and still perform at a higher, because they're gonna perform at a higher level anyway. What would you tell them? What, what do they need to do?

I don't think there's an easy answer to that. Um, you know, I've been at companies that had, um. Black groups. I know when I was at Victoria's Secret, we got flown to Washington to some dinner. They, all the black people got flown to Washington on a private jet for, to some table they had spent a lot of money on at some event for, and you know, they need to show off the black people. Um, you know, at Ralph Lauren, they had a very strong group of, so they had to, hold on, hold on, stop a second. They put 'em on a jet. A whole group of them. They running the table, right? No, they were either, they ain't even know each other. Huh. And then flew 'em in and say, look how diverse we're Yes, it happens. Oh man. Oh,

I know. It happens. It's just funny. It's just, you know, because, you know, a lot of times you think where you work is the world. Okay. And when you hear stories, it's just, it's just like, yeah, this is what

they do. But go ahead, finish your thought. Yeah. The other side of it was at Ralph Lauren. They had a, they very purposely, as soon as I was, um, hired, you know, introduced me to all the other black executives and talked about their diversity programs and all of that. I never saw, you know, after meeting them once, I never saw them again. Um, so, you know, and not that they were bad people, they were great people, right. But it just was like a kind of forced relationship. Um, so I don't know what really works 'cause I haven't seen it. Um mm-hmm. I, I really don't know. I think it's so systemically a bigger problem that there's not necessarily any one thing they can do. 'cause I'm the girl who gives those talks sometimes to those companies. And I know that I can play on the white girl sympathy of like, oh gosh, she had a rough time. And, you know, they, certain, certain type of them wanna wanna feed into that, right. 'cause of their liberal guilt, I will call it. Um. But is that doing something? No, that's just me performing again. Right. So I don't know if there's an easy answer to this. Mm-hmm. I'm interested in finding out one, you know, I'm interested in working on that. I think Got it. A lot more work. And I don't think that even though this is a difficult time for any kind of diversity, um, conversation in our country, that it's time to stop. I think, you know, there are ways we can continue to progress and again, work within what there is.

Well, listen, thank you for that. But I, I, I think I, the one thing I do think that can help affect change is what you're doing right now is by sharing your story and more people sharing their stories, and then people hearing these stories, and then people saying, you know what? Maybe I can affect change. Maybe I can at, at when I'm at work or, uh, you know, I have a senior leadership team. Maybe I can talk to them and maybe we can try to make things more inclusive. So if we don't say anything about these things, if we don't share our stories, then to your point, nobody will know. Right. And we know, but the bottom line is we want mainstream to know. And we want more people to have the courage for, to come on and talk about these things because they are true. They happen. And awareness, you know, what's the first thing? Uh, uh, and I, uh, what they say the first, uh, step to, to realizing you're an alcoholic is, first thing you gotta say is, I'm an alcoholic. All right? Yeah. So awareness is everything. What, what, what advice would you give, uh, black biracial women that are navigating the things that you dealt with? And, and there, or it may not be similar, but just, uh, you know, uh, who are on similar paths today?

You know, I would say getting involved with things like mentoring, it's an easier way in. Um, if, especially if you weren't, you're not coming from that same background and you don't have that base to connect on. Could be, you know, you don't have the same music, you don't have the same, you know, all different kinds of things. Don't live in the same neighborhoods, but, you know, find those things where you can. And mentoring is one of those things we, as you said, really well. We all do have our stories and our stories are important and they do help, right? Every little one of them. Otherwise I wouldn't keep doing it. Um, and even if it's just a baby step, it's a step. So I think that's one of the things that you can do. Mentoring, again, talking to that next generation, noticing what's changed and what hasn't changed. Um, that helps me and brings me hope and joy. You know, with the middle school program in the last year, I noticed there was a definite difference in the way these middle schoolers thought about the way they looked. These black women, young black women, thought about the way they looked at the beginning. They thought the blonde girl was the pretty girl. And by the end they weren't saying that. They were saying that black woman with the, with the braids was pretty, and little, little nuances like that matter, that means there's progress.

I love it. My final question, my friend, let's say we had a, uh, the start. Oh, they had a cloaking device. So let's say we can go the movie back to the future. Mm-hmm. Let's say we could back all the way up. You could see yourself today and you saw yourself have a seven, 8-year-old. Person, or let's put it this way, let's say if you could write a letter, so you, you jettison, and now you can look back and you could write a letter to your younger self. Um, and, and that person was still performing. What's the one sentence you would want her to hear loud and clear?

Yeah. That, you know, today, I want her to hear that it's okay to be your authentic self. That it's not always gonna be easy to be your authentic self, but it's okay to do it even if it's not always easy.

Well, I can tell you this. I'm glad you came on today and you were your authentic self, and I love you to death for it. I, I am, uh, you have been fantastic and thanks for sharing this. And obviously there's a lot of people that are gonna watch and listen to this, that's gonna get a lot out of it. Um, so let me ask you, because you gave us a lot today, I wanted to give back to you. So how can A Black Executive Perspective Podcast help you, Grace?

Well, I'm a part of the collective, the collective identity that's based in, um, LA and, uh, a part of USC. They need all the help they can get to continue to help mentor, uh, these young, very bright women, uh, who happen to be black at USC. Um, in addition to that, I am a member and the executive, um. The executive mentor at the Women of Color Retail Alliance, that's wra and they are doing things across the entire industry. You know, only, um, 2% of executives in retail are African American, and 80% of the workforce is African American. That's wow. Wildly out of proportion. And we are here to help by mentoring among other things, level these people up so that they can get to these higher levels in the industry. So those, so how could people help with,

how could, how could people join? Uh, ra,

uh, RA has a website, W-O-C-R-A, um, women of Color Retail Alliance, the Collective Identity, or TCI, you can find them both on LinkedIn. You can also find them on their website.

Awesome. We'll definitely have it on the website and we'll have it here as well so people can see it. So again, my sister, I, I am, um, just so happy that you came on, shared your story, and we'd love to have you come back. And to be fair, we would love, you know, uh, uh, RA or any of your other, uh, um, alliances, the collective identity, uh, they can be a guest. But anything that we can do for you, we're here. We're, you know, uh, kindred spirits now. So I want to thank you for appearing on A Black Executive Perspective Podcast.

Well, thank you, Tony. This forum is really unique and, um, I applaud you for creating it and for making it what it is, and I'm just honored to be here.

Well, thank you my sister. The, the Honor is ours. So now I think it's time for Tony's Tidbit and the tidbit today. The journey from survival to leadership begins the moment you stop shrinking to fit spaces never built for you. We've been taught to measure our worth by how well we adapt, how quiet we can be, how easy we can make others feel. But leadership isn't found in the assimilation, it's found in authenticity. Wholeness isn't given. It's reclaim. It's the work of gathering the pieces you were told to hide and standing fully in them. That's where your power lives, not in fitting the room, but in knowing you were meant to disappear inside of it. And you heard a lot of that from our Sister Grace Food and today, so again, I want you to remind you, everyone to check out. Need to know what Dr. Nsenga Burton. Every Thursday here on A Black Executive Perspective Podcast, Dr. Burton dives into the timely and crucial topics that shape our community and world. Tune in to gain insights, deepen your understanding of the issues that matter. You do not wanna miss it. Hear on a black executive perspective, uh, black executive perspective podcast. Need to know with Dr. Nsenga every Thursday. And don't miss our round table of the next Pull Up, Speak Up where bold, unfiltered voices tackle the most provocative issues, sharp perspectives, real talk, call to action. It's not an episode, it's a revolution. So don't miss Pull Up, Speak Up here on A Black Executive Perspective Podcast. So now it's time for our call to action. And if this is your first time watching or listening to A Black Executive Perspective Podcast, our goal, our mission is to eliminate and decrease all forms of discrimination. And to do this, we're asking everyone to. Jump in and, and, and move forward with our acronym called less. L-E-S-S-L stands for learn. You wanna educate yourself on racial and cultural nuances so you can become more lightened around people that you don't, that are not in your circles. And then after you learn, you have the letter E, which stands for empathy. Now, since you've learned, you can be more empathetic towards those people because now you understand what they go through. And then the first S is share. You wanna share what you've learned, like my sister Grace did today to enlighten others. So then they can understand. And then the final S is stop. We want, you want to stop all forms of discrimination that walks in your path. So in other words, if I'm Jenny or Uncle Joe says something that's inappropriate at the Sunday dinner table, you say, aunt Jenny, uncle Joe, we don't believe that. We don't say that. And you stop it right away. So if everyone, and this isn't everyone's control. This is something that every person can do. You don't have to write your congressman. You don't have to go out and get a picket side. You can do this in the comfort of your own home or as you walk the earth, because if everyone incorporates less, we'll build a more fair, more understanding world and we all will see the change that we want to see because less will become more. Don't forget, you can watch the next episode of A Black Executive Perspective Podcast on YouTube, apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast, and you can follow us on our social channels of LinkedIn, X, YouTube, TikTok, Facebook and Instagram at a black exec for our fabulous guest, Grace Fuen, executive leader and company builder. I'm Tony Tidbit. We talked about it. We learned about it, we laughed about it. We still gonna strive about it and we're gonna thrive about it. We love you. And guess what? We're out

A Black Executive Perspective.