How can knowing your numbers, transform your

business and personal finances.

I chat with Mamood Raza.

All about it.

In this episode of architecture business club, the weekly podcast for solo

and small firm architecture practice owners, just like you who want to build

a profitable future-proof architecture business that fits around their life.

I'm the host John Clayton.

And if you want a business in architecture that gives you more freedom,

flexibility, and fulfillment that go to architecture, business club.com

forward slash blueprint and download the architecture business blueprint.

It's the step-by-step formula to freedom for architects, architectural

technologists and architecture designers.

And it's absolutely free as a gift from me.

Now let's discuss money matters and getting to know your numbers.

Mahmood Reza is a business finance fixer, tax advisor, and author of I Hate Numbers.

He has helped thousands of sole traders, business owners, artists, creatives,

and social enterprises have businesses, not hobbies, make money, save tax,

improve their money mindsets, and reduce their financial stress and anxiety.

Mahmood believes that once you understand what your numbers are, where they

come from, what they mean, you can use them to make better decisions and

ultimately make or keep more money.

You can learn more and connect with Mahmood at ihatenumbers.

co.

uk.

Mahmood, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Thank you very much, John.

That was a beautiful introduction.

It made me go slightly misty eyed, but yeah, thank you for that.

Thank you for inviting me.

Don't start crying.

That wasn't, you know, the,

I'll do my best not to, I've got my Oscar speech ready, just in case.

we'll save that for later if you've got time.

Mahmood, um, I know, uh, outside of, of the work that you do

you're a bit of an adrenaline junkie on the quiet, aren't you?

You'd like to do a bit of scuba diving.

You've done some of that in, uh, in your time, haven't you?

have done.

I've done some of that.

I've done some app saving.

I've done some various other activities.

I know you probably think very calm accountant, finance y person once

you're doing things like that, but yeah.

It's not, as you say, it's not what you expect.

It's the kind of typical.

Accountant to do in the free time.

So I love it.

I love all that sort of stuff as well.

Not that I get much chance to do it these days.

But yeah, scuba diving and bungee jumping.

Awesome fun.

But we're not going to talk about that today.

What we're actually here to talk about together is Well, it's the

start of the new tax year when this episode is being published.

So we're going to talk about money and the importance of

getting to grips with our numbers.

So why is it important that we get to grip with our numbers?

That's a great question.

I think fundamentally, John, uh, if we look at any business that goes in there,

whether it's a private business, a not for profit, a social enterprise, a charity.

Ultimately, in order to deliver your wire, Simon, our friend Simon would say.

If you don't have funds, maintaining your costs, providing a living for the

people who work with you, uh, find a living for yourself, then ultimately

your ability to serve and deliver impact is going to diminish and wave.

And therefore money is an important consideration.

It's not the only one, but it's absolutely critical.

It's like the fuel that goes into your car.

If you don't have the fuel, you can't drive your car.

I totally agree with this.

I've, I guess, sort of learned this the hard way that I have never.

Never been motivated by money, but it's come to kind of bite me on

the bottom over the years by not, by not getting to grips of it.

So I'm, I'm fascinated about the, this topic and what we're discussing today.

So I think it's going to be really helpful which I guess that sort

of leads us on to thinking about.

Money mindset.

So, you know, how the way that you think about money, I've just

mentioned, I've never, never really been motivated by money.

So how can your mindset that you have about money, how can that affect

your finances in your business?

What's a great question, John.

I think if I look at, um, if I, for example, focusing in that world

of business and that sort of big overarching business that Carrick

has a lot of players in there is your behavior and your attitude.

Mixed with your skills and abilities.

It's a thing that combines to give you that ability to do whatever you're doing.

And for me, you know, whether it's a family issue, background, cultural,

whether you've never worked before, whether you've come from money,

whether you've not come from money.

I'm I, I myself have come from a family of nine, got a great deal of money

on the table and all the rest of it.

That influences how you interact with people that influences.

Invoicing clients, invoices, that money being in a consideration there as well.

And I think if you don't win that battle that goes on between

your ears in business, uh, then I think you find it very, very

difficult to maintain a business.

I would imagine it's the same, you know, in your world, John, that you could

have brilliant skills and really be academically minded, but if you don't

have the right stuff in terms of how you interact with people, how you interact

with clients, your right attitude there, basically, you're going to be a useless.

Individual in that post.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that.

So it's interesting actually that you mentioned about how things like your, your

background, your upbringing, those things can influence how we think about money.

Oh, yeah, very much so.

And I think it also about wishing to be a marriage guidance counselor.

It also happens in when you've got businesses where you've got husband

and wife working together, friends working together and all the rest of it.

People in the UK, I think, still generally speaking, Uh, have a

very focused and myopic view about how they should discuss money.

Talk about it for something that's a very grubby word.

Some people react against their past.

So where they may have come from a very impoverished background

or money wasn't a particularly, uh, something that was plentiful.

That influences how they react in terms of conserving money, not necessarily

investing in their business, being very cautious in terms of how they

invest their time and money and energy.

Some people go the other way around and they say, look, I had a very, you

know, my background was such, uh, that I'm actually just going to be reckless.

Some people have left a job that's very well paid.

They go into the world of business and expect that same replica because

they don't really discuss it.

And I don't really talk about it with their friends.

Their colleagues, people in their business and all the rest of it.

It becomes a thing they have to figure out in their own heads,

which is not really probably the best conversation space to have.

Yeah, I think it can be something that's quite a taboo subject.

For a lot of people, and it really shouldn't be, but it is, um, it's

something that I, in particular, noticed in the world of architecture, particularly

when it comes to how transparent practices are about what they charge

and why they charge what they charge.

And, It can be very difficult to find out, you know, particularly thinking about

this from a consumer's point of view.

If you're looking to find an architect or an architectural practice to

work with, it's, it's real cloak and dagger when it comes to the numbers.

So it's not just within the business themselves.

It's also how they talk about numbers with their clients.

You know, it's a real

mystery.

agree.

I don't know if you find it in your own space that, uh, that actually

you can sometimes raise a barrier.

It can be an inhibitor.

to actually clients interacting with you because I think my own personal

perception, if I think architects, okay, I also actually think it's going to

be an extremely expensive investment.

I think it's not, you know, I won't necessarily have the funds, even though

I don't actually know what the value and the cost of an architect services and what

they do, and if you're not going to be comfortable talking about money, I think

with people, especially in a business context, it's going to be difficult.

My personal view is when I interact with a new person, client and all

the rest of that certainly don't be driven by money in its own right.

But I think if you're not comfortable having a conversation about money

with prospective clients, with your fellow partners, with investors at the

outset, that doesn't bode very well when you do start generating value.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

It's going to be, uh, it's going to be difficult to, uh, to run your business

if you not willing to talk about it.

Yeah.

So Mahmood, you, you came up with a concept related to money and

finances planet do it profit.

Can you tell me about that and just explain what that's all about.

Absolutely.

So I think there's two or three things that come to play here.

I've always been a big a believer in what I call planning, not, not a plan, not

a document, not a straight jacket that says, this is what I said I was gonna do.

Therefore, that's it.

I mustn't do anything outside of that.

And it's going to be a fixed rigid because I think the whole idea about

a plan, as soon as you say, this is my plan of action for the next six

months, 12 months is out of the moment.

You've signed it off in your own mind.

So for me, unless you have some perception, what's going on through the

windscreen of your business going forward.

Okay.

It's very difficult to know what you've got to do in

order to get to that end goal.

So for me, it's always been, what is your end objective?

Your end destination?

What is the route?

What is the thing you're actually going to be doing to get you that route?

And I'll have to take give some credit also to a lady called Joe Watson, who

edited my book for me, my copy editor, and in a conversation with her, we came

up with that phrase planet doing profit.

And for me, it encapsulates exactly what a business is going to do.

In order to actually get to that, you know, that end destination

that you will live on if you want for want of a better term,

Got it.

Got it.

So the planet bit is the, obviously.

The planning stage, kind of having some foresight into where you're

heading and what the destination is,

correct?

the do it bit is presumed that's the implementation of the plan,

I mean, what I'd probably add to that, John, is the

planet for me, as you're right, is about destination first, story.

What's the story that you present to yourself, the activity?

Think about things like some people might, for example, be very, uh, what

I would say, very cautious about, say, I want to get to this stage.

And some people might be completely reckless.

It says.

For example, you know, I wish to make a million pounds, for example, but if

you're starting from a base of zero and you're thinking to yourself, it'd

be similar to somebody says, you know, I want to appear at the Albert Hall.

and perform a concert.

Now, if you're like me, you probably wouldn't be let loose because my voice

would probably drive dogs insane.

However, if I'm actually a professional songster or I've actually got some

experience there, the aspiration of the alcohol may not be that unrealistic.

So it's about an objective.

What's your goals?

What's your ambitions?

What's your mindset saying?

And what is your behavior saying there as well?

The doing is the actual implementation.

And it's about the mini milestones that you set yourself

as you go along that journey.

And if we think about anybody who's at the top of their relative game, singer,

performer and all rest of that, they think to themselves, what do I need to

do to actually be able to get to that where I've actually set myself out to be?

So the doing it is a combination of that, how we avoid procrastination,

how we avoid things like imposter syndrome, how we actually become more

confident in ourselves, the actual investing the money, investing the

time, the energy and the profit.

It's the end objective, you know, whatever that figure or that, you

know, your Nirvana looks like to you is the is the result of all those

and it's not necessarily a linear.

You know, but for me, those are three key segments.

Could we talk a little bit more about profit?

Absolutely.

Are there any guidelines or yardsticks that small business owners

can, can use when it comes to profit, because this is a question that has

come up within some of the communities that I'm in with people in architecture.

What is reasonable to expect or to aim for maybe as a percentage of turnover.

Have you got any thoughts on that from your experience

working with other companies?

Yeah, I have.

And I would say it's a, it's a classic finance person's response

by their job to say, it depends.

But so here's, here's what I would say, depending, I think you as the business

owner, whether you're an individual, whether you're a part of a partnership

or you're a big conglomerate here, you've got to first of all decide, okay, On

that bit that I get to at the end, you know, in terms of where I want to achieve

there as well, I need to make sure that I've got enough funds to take me through

to cover my cost, give myself a half decent living and that level of profit,

I would say as a startup, I would aim for to getting to a break even situation

probably within a couple of years.

If you do it much quicker than that, that's fantastic.

But typically a break even situation for year one and year

two, where you've actually managed to reward yourself to some extent.

I think it's a great achievement.

Real value and profit actually comes from most businesses after

about five years, by the way.

And beyond the five years, could you sustain people know who you are, they've

engaged with you and all the rest of it, then that's where you're going

to make some excessive profits there.

If you're talking about what should that figure be, it varies

so much from sector to sector.

So if you're a sole trader, so proprietary in your world.

It may be that your target profit is such that you can retain maybe a

couple of months, three months worth of ongoing costs, and you managed

to give yourself a salary or reward that's commensurate with a more than a

living wage as far as that's concerned.

If you've got obviously extra financial pressures because of home,

that might be a different landscape.

If you're working in the retail sector, you know, by benchmarking

other companies, what that can be.

So really for me, I know it's a bit of a long answer.

It's shaggy dog type story here.

It's very much depends on the nature of the business you are and whereabouts

you are in your business cycle.

Got it.

Got it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

So for thinking of the listeners of the show who are going to be working in

architecture, small business owners, many of them are going to be the sole, sole

practitioners, so sole traders, or maybe it's a small business with, you know,

two or three staff, something like that.

Yeah.

So for those people, do you have any further thoughts on any sort

of typical margins for those

people in the audience?

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Now, back to the show.

That's an interesting point.

I would probably say where I would start from.

If you want to get some sort of a, If you look at that typical practitioner

that's got two or three members of staff, I would probably say, in terms

of service margin, I'd probably be looking for what they call a net margin.

So after you've paid all your own costs, reward yourself.

If you can aim for about 10 15%, that would be a good

benchmark figure to begin with.

That gives you enough funds to leave in the business, gives you

enough reward on top of that.

Obviously, you know, I would imagine all practices, John, are going to differ.

Are they in terms of the client base they deal with?

So a high street practice might be different for somebody working from home.

Somebody who's working with a certain target section in terms

of wealth they've got might be earning a slightly different figure.

As long as you've got enough to cover your costs.

Pay yourself what you think is a decent level of salary.

Okay.

And have, you know, three months worth of overheads costs left over and your

lifestyle is as you want it to be.

That to me is probably a good measure of, you know, a first

initial target to go for.

I think that's a good idea because I think sometimes we

can get a little bit hung up on like what other people are doing and

how other businesses are operating.

And the truth is that particularly if you're a business of one.

Like the way that you set things up in terms of your numbers and your

targets is very much related to you and your, the lifestyle that you've

set out that you want to achieve.

And it's not necessarily going to be aligned with what the practice down the

road is doing in terms of their numbers.

So I guess it's sort of taking it at the, an individual approach to it.

Yeah, that's, that's really helpful.

Thanks for that, Manita.

As you were saying that, John, I think there's one

more thing I would factor in.

If I go right back to the start, you know, uh, I mean, for example, I would

imagine for yourself, you could have, if you wanted to, you know, if you like,

it's actually said, you know what, I'm going to work for another practice.

I'm not going to bother with this high risk rollercoaster world of

self employment work for myself.

And if people make that decision to work for themselves by accident or

design, what you've gotta factor is there's elements they say that they

want from that self-employed life.

So freedom, control, the flexibility, the ability to say

to somebody, I don't actually like you, I don't wanna work with you.

Or actually say, I'm gonna go down this partake weeks off the scuba diving.

So you've gotta factor that in, I think as a social return on top of the

financial return that you're making.

That's an interesting point because the truth is that in my

experience, that most of us, when we start our own business or become a, an

entrepreneur or sole, sole trader it's not necessarily all about the money.

It often, it isn't.

Anything to do with the money, you know, we obviously we need the money

to, to get by, but the reasons for leaving a potentially secure job at

another architecture practice and going out on your own is usually because

you want more freedom, flexibility and fulfillment in what you do, and not

necessarily about wanting more money.

But then that's comes back to something we mentioned earlier about Having

said all that, that if we neglect to get to grips with those numbers,

even if we're not motivated by it, it can cause problems down the line.

So I think that's the kind of caveat that I would say on this, that, you know, even

if you're not motivated by making loads of money, that this is so important that

we do get to grips with our numbers.

Absolutely critical.

Yeah, I think you are absolutely right.

Now here, here's another way, another spin on that.

I would say if I was starting over again, I've been doing this for over

29 years now is to say Your first target is going to be to say, what

is it you need in your household?

Okay.

So actually keep your head above water to actually not starting to

get stressed out because you haven't got enough money to pay bills.

That's your first level of target.

And if you can generate enough profit that goes to ideally cover that.

So you can actually cover, keep your head self a float, maybe

a little bit on top of that.

That is your first profit target.

Then you could move out because you take the pressure off.

You take the stress off thinking when we're going to get the money from this

month to go towards the mortgage, the bills, kids, and all the rest of it.

Once you've moved past that, you then find that actually

you're just topping up the tank.

And that means instead of taking a couple of weeks off in a year, You could take

three or four weeks off in the year.

So I would say if you want a profit margin test, it should be such

that actually doesn't, you're not having undue financial pressures

at home and in your personal life.

Got it.

Sage advice.

Let's talk about record keeping.

I mean, what is that and why is it important keeping those records?

very

companies, our charity commission, if it's relevant, that's fine.

That you've got to do that.

If you don't.

You could at worst case scenario be eating prison food and keeping company with

people you don't necessarily want to.

That's a really extreme situation.

So it's not the compliance side.

It's not about doing the things.

It's also by the way, a criminal offense if you don't maintain records, but

it's, it's what's happening in between.

So if you imagine at the end of the year, somebody says, right, here's my books.

I have to do that myself, take this to my accountant to get

all those tax returns done.

But if you don't have that information that runs throughout the year to say

what are things costing me, how much profit am I making or how much money

am I losing, which clients give me best value, which clients are losing

me money and all I say, if you can't get access to that, then you're going

to find life really difficult here.

And that's where the records come.

It says, keep a track on what you're spending.

Who your customers are chasing up money from people who owe you money.

Nowadays, I mean, we can talk about formats later on, but that's what I

mean by record keeping because your brain is a useless finding cabinet.

So what we're trying to avoid is not turning up at the accountant's

doorstep at the end of the year with a big carrier bag full of receipts

and disorganized mess saying, there you go, you sort the accounts out.

So ideally, essentially this is like bookkeeping, isn't it?

We're keeping track of the ins and outs of, uh, the money going in and out of our

business on a, you know, weekly basis.

hundred percent.

And what I'm probably saying, the risk of probably getting shoved out.

If people are listening to the finance people.

Actually keeping the records just to keep your counselors happy.

It should not be your primary aim.

That's a consequence of keeping good records.

It's about, I mean, look, John, typically you, we've known each other,

uh, for a while, uh, I know in your practice, as you're evolving and you're

pivoting and doing different things.

You'll want information to help you inform the decision and if you don't have that

financial information that goes with other information here Your decision

making is going to be quite narrow quite lopsided So for me, it's about knowing

what goes on So if you're not somebody who likes record keeping I would say as

a bare minimum Even if you know what your bank account is looking like what who

your customers are that owe you money having that access I In relative terms

at your fingertips is such a, what I call an eye opener and it's so illuminating.

It's so powerful.

One of the best investments that I've made over

the years is in a cloud based.

Bookkeeping software the particular one that I use is called free agent.

There's all sorts out there.

Zero, that's another popular one.

Uh, QuickBooks.

So there's, we could go on and on, but essentially that, that has made

it so much easier for me to just keep tabs on the finances and use it for

invoicing, for consolidating, explaining transactions in and out of bank accounts.

My.

Accountant has access to the software.

So when it comes time to sort out the company accounts, it's, it just

makes everything so much simpler.

And I'm so glad that I took the advice of the advisor.

It was a business advisor at my local bank that had said, when I

was setting up, I really strongly recommend that you, you, you.

Pay this subscription and get this software and start doing

this from the very beginning.

And I'm, I'm so glad that I did.

It's one of the few, one of the few things that I did right from the very beginning.

You've done lots of things, right?

But listen, you know, that advice is exactly as I would say as well as spot

on is don't look at something as a cost.

And that's another mindset issue.

Look, it is a good investment about the amount of time.

And the access to knowing what's going on.

It just gives people peace of mind.

And I think if you're going to do nothing else, invest in accounting.

So it's not that expensive these days either.

But it's a worthwhile, you'll get your return back quite easily.

Absolutely.

And actually there's some of the banks now that offer it for free.

They will offer a package for free.

So it's worth checking out what offers are available from the banks.

What, what about tax Mammut?

Could we touch upon that briefly?

Okay.

Yeah, we can actually.

I would say there's two things.

There's the actual what taxes impact on an individual.

And I think there's also what I call the psychological thought

process behind tax as well.

So typically, most businesses tax will affect them in

probably one of three key areas.

And the fact that as an individual, you might have to

pay tax because of your business.

To me is actually a good sign.

It means you're earning enough money who might not feel like it that the

tax plan wants to slice off you.

Number two the in theory, the simple tax like VAT Again, most businesses

at the startup phase, unless they choose to voluntarily register

for V-A-T-V-A-T won't affect them.

They'll be just, they'll ch they'll pay it to their suppliers and all you

are is a tax collector as far as hs.

CC is concerned when you've got to a certain level and you've gotta

do what they call register of that.

You'll basically be a tax collector.

Unpaid, no holiday, no benefits.

You'll be working on behalf of the government collecting

it and paying it over to them.

So the other two, the other main areas are, is where an individual has to

pay tax and where their organization or their company has to pay tax,

but you cannot get away from it.

From the moment we're born to the moment we die, everybody at

some point will be paying tax.

Deaf and Taxes, the only two certainties in life, that's what they

say, isn't it?

And it's the things that freak us out the most as well.

Even though we know they're there, they're probably the ones

that cause us a lot of stress.

Yeah, um, something else that I did when I started out

was The, the software I use gave me an approximate estimate of what

my tax liability was likely to be.

And I had a savings account, but I used to set aside some money, you know, as

the money came in, I thought, Oh, okay.

That tax liability numbers going up.

And it wasn't.

Perfect at the end of the year, but it was not far off and it was just an easy way of

making sure that the money was there when it was time to come and pay the tax bill.

Uh, that's a good discipline.

A great discipline.

I mean that approach, okay.

If you do it either through software, what we normally advise

clients to say, look, if you invoice a client for a hundred quid.

X percentage of that so much in a pound to take it out of the system,

put it away in a deposit account.

You're going to earn a bit of interest on that.

So you might even get a drink out of the tax people the end of the year.

But when you're looking at your bank statement, you know that more likely

belongs to you, not to somebody else.

And I think it doesn't present false optimism in terms of put that money aside.

It's all saved up.

And therefore, when it comes to that time to pay the bill, you've really got the

money there, you know, bingo, because when you work for somebody, you're having

that money taken off you each week, each month, when you're working for

yourself, you are your tax collector.

yeah, it does require a little bit of discipline.

Mahmood, that's been absolutely fantastic, really informative.

So thanks for joining us today, but what would be the main thing

you, you want people to take away from this conversation?

Okay.

I would say probably three things.

If I'm allowed three things.

Obviously my strapline plan it to a profit, but I actually have an idea of

what for you, not anybody else, what for you represents your end point,

your destination within 12 months, two years, three years time, and then figure

out the journey you've got to make.

What does it mean in activity?

And then translate it into a financial plan.

Number two, don't be scared.

Okay, that you don't know things.

Okay.

You know more about financially give yourself the credit ball.

Uh, so don't be hijacked by language.

Uh, and number three, enjoy it.

Money will come if you do things well, but don't set unrealistic

expectations for yourself there as well.

And I just think you've got to be comfortable and confident in what you do.

I have lost count amount of mess ups I've made in my business

life from the very beginning.

Even, you know, in the last few years, I've made decisions that

have cost me lots of money.

I've worked with people that have cost me lots of money.

So you've got to have a real strength of sense of resilience and

strength and just enjoy the ride.

That's great advice.

Thanks Mahmood.

Was there anything else you wanted to add that we haven't already covered?

No funds.

That's very kind of you to give the website address.

Obviously, I will plug my book, I Hate Numbers, which is not

written for accountants, but they would be pleased to know.

Obviously, I want to appear on that Richard and Judy show one morning to

say, tell us about your bestseller book.

But no, if anyone wants to check out, we've got loads of resources.

We've got a YouTube channel.

I hate numbers and a podcast and a weekly vlog.

They're all there.

We're all accessible.

But if you don't know, speak to your advisor, speak to your accountant.

And just as I said, uh, I think that's all I know.

Thank you very much again, John, for inviting me onto your show.

You're very welcome.

I'll make sure those links go in the show notes so people

can access those resources.

Mahmood, I've got one very quick final question.

It's nothing to do with numbers.

I love to travel and discover new places and I think architecture is about place.

So could you tell me one of your favorite places and what you love about it?

It could be near or far.

Okay.

I'm going to say Barbados, actually, but not actually for the beaches in

the north of the island in Barbados.

Barbados is a lovely island.

I've been there quite a number of times with my wife.

There's a north part of the island called Bathsheba, and it faces

on, my geography is terrible.

I think it's the Atlantic it faces onto, but it's very rough.

Very ready, but very fascinating.

You know, sometimes when you look at fires, for example, they can entrench

you and you just look at them.

You've got the ocean crashing against the rocks and all the rest of it.

So it's got an element of stillness and beauty.

And you just look at it and you think, do you know what?

You're just a mere pimple on the backside when you look at

mother nature and it's raw.

So in the context of the beautiful island, that's a part of the world

that I find particularly tranquil, uh, and particularly fascinating as well.

Oh, it's an awesome place.

I was fortunate enough to visit many years ago just for a short holiday with

my wife and we absolutely loved it.

And if you go back, Mahmood, um, Carlisle Bay, recall was

a great spot for scuba diving.

They had about five, five different wrecks that was just not far off the beach.

So, um, put that on your to do list next time you go.

I will do John.

Listen, thanks again.

All right.

Thanks Mahmood.

Take care.

Bye.

Next time I chat with architect Syrah.

Kolata about how you can craft a location, independent architecture business.

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