Richard James: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome to today's Pod Your Practice Mastered. We're proud to bring you this episode. My name is Richard James, and this is my co-host.

MPS: "MPS"

Richard James: "MPS" he also happens to be my son. He's the better looking of the two of us.

He's got hair. He makes this look a lot better. We're joined today by Jodi Donato. Jodi Donato is this previous year's EAY, entrepreneurial attorney of the year finalist. She has some amazing growth that she's gone through in 2022. We can't wait to talk to her about that. Jodi, welcome to the show today.

Jodi Donato: Hi, Rich. Thanks. Hi, Mich.

Richard James: So Jodi, we're gonna talk today about you cause this is gonna, what we goal, just so you know, is on this pod, is for us to be able to inspire that attorney that's out there listening and really come from the perspective if one man or woman can do this, another man or woman can do this. Does that make sense?

Jodi Donato: Yes.

Richard James: So before we get started, [00:01:00] maybe we'll start a little lightheartedly. Tell me something that you don't think anybody. Typically knows about you. What's something that nobody really knows about you? And you gotta be careful what you're gonna share this is gonna go to millions of people. No, I'm just kidding.

No. What would something be that people don't normally know about you?

Jodi Donato: So people that meet me would be shocked to know that in high school and probably until about I got out of law school, I was actually kind of on the shy side.

Richard James: Really.

MPS: Whoa

Richard James: I'm shocked to hear that too.

Jodi Donato: Yeah. I was shy in large crowds. I did not like walking into a large crowd alone. Yeah. If I went to an event with my mother, I walked in behind her.

MPS: well Jodi, that's quite the transformation cause I would not have pegged you as Shy.

Jodi Donato: Yes.

Richard James: Is it introvert versus extrovert? Jodi? Like, do you not derive energy from people in crowds, or you [00:02:00] just were shy and now you've come outta your shell and you now are an extrovert? Like, what do you think?

Jodi Donato: I think I was just afraid.

Richard James: Okay.

Jodi Donato: And I stopped being afraid.

Richard James: All right.

Jodi Donato: I used to be afraid, like being that person alone, wandering a room, not knowing anyone, you know? Now I just walk up and talk to people.

Richard James: Yeah. Well, Michael, you know, I have noticed. Yes, that's what I love about you, or one of the things I love about you, Michael. Do you remember what that acronym we used to say Standard for fear?

MPS: Yeah. Fear, false evidence appearing real.

Richard James: These are the lessons we had as young men when him and his brother were growing up in the house. So false evidence appearing real. So you've found out, Jodi, that there was really nothing to be afraid of, right? The false evidence as you thought you had to be afraid, but then you realize there's nothing to be afraid of everybody's.

The real funny story behind it is everybody else is just as scared as you are so that you just have to overcome that and then go talk to people and they're willing to talk to you. Is that right?

Jodi Donato: Pretty much. I mean, I [00:03:00] got to the point where it's like, all right, if you don't wanna talk to me or you don't like me, that's your choice.

Richard James: Yeah. My grandmother used to say that what people think about me is none of my damn business. So, okay, so we're gonna break into this a little bit. I want to talk about, you know, this is a business podcast. And so we consider you an entrepreneurial attorney. I wanna talk a little bit about your journey.

So how did you become, why did you decide to become an attorney? And, then did you work for somebody else or did you open your shop up right away? And what did that journey look like to hanging your own shingle and becoming an entrepreneur?

Jodi Donato: So I actually wanted to be an attorney since I was 12 years old and I used to follow all the criminal cases in the newspaper, and my plan was to become a big criminal law attorney and get all the criminals off Scott Fray. That was my goal.

So I actually, after college, I was supposed to go to law school. I had taken a gap year and I was supposed to go to law school [00:04:00] and I was 21, 22 having a lot of fun with my friends and I did not want to give that up. So I decided not to go to law school at that time. And I was working in the accounting field and so in 1988, I had my oldest child, my first child, I was a single parent.

I was working for a large car, car dealership here as the controller. I was doing very well. And that year on my birthday, my cousin looked at me and said, whatever happened with you going to law school? And I said, I can't go now. I'm too old. I was 25. But she got me thinking, so January of 1990, the same month my son turned two, I started law school and I [00:05:00] started out part-time nights, switched to full-time days, and I got out in two and a half years.

Richard James: Nice.

Jodi Donato: I came out, I worked for. I got hired as a clerk for a firm while I was waiting for the bar exam results and all, and that's where I, you know, learned matrimonial family law, divorce in New York.

And so that firm was not meant to be for me for long term. And then I started working for another attorney per diem. And interestingly enough, his matrimonial person had just left to become a child support magistrate and she was phenomenal. Cause I met her, she didn't know me, brought me a whole bunch of her books.

From there I worked for someone else and I found out I was pregnant with my third child. And the same week I found out I was pregnant with my third child. That boss had all his bank accounts frozen and [00:06:00] he was facing a grievance.

So I kind of had no choice but to go out on my own. I never thought I would be on my own. It wasn't something I planned. And I do remember that first year, the office manager who worked for my former employer said, you have to take out a yellow page app. This is how far back we're going guys.

Richard James: Hey, when I built the firm in Phoenix, the first ad I had was the yellow page ad, so you and I are in the same boat. We're good.

Jodi Donato: Yes. So it was 1997 and you know, the salesman comes in and it was like 300 and some odd dollars a month, and I don't even think it was over three 50. And I looked and I went, how do I pay that? And she goes, you don't have a choice, you have to do it. And I said, okay. And I listened to her and I, you know, I also learned at that job to track where all the referrals were coming from, things like that.

Fast forward, I've been on my own ever [00:07:00] since. And you know, a few years ago I learned about you and Partners Club. I thought it was Your Practice Mastered. I thought it was a good program, but financially I again went.

Richard James: True.

Jodi Donato: You know and I had no one to tell me I had to do it at that point. So, I didn't, and then after COVID I came back, I joined up and yeah, I love having the accountability. It really helps.

MPS: So the journey into law firm owner on entrepreneurship was a little bit of entrepreneurship outta necessity at the time. Yeah.

Jodi Donato: Correct. And honestly, when I first started, I didn't see myself as a business owner. Actually, I didn't see myself as a business owner for many, many years. You know, I, saw myself as a self-employed attorney.

Richard James: Hmm.

Jodi Donato: And my net profit reflected a self-employed attorney.

MPS: I, gotta [00:08:00] ask, that's how you saw yourself then. How do you see yourself now?

Jodi Donato: I am the owner of a law firm.

Richard James: How exciting, okay, so backing up on that, when did that transition happen, like how long did it take? We know you've been in practice for a while, but like, okay, so admittedly you didn't see yourself as the owner of a law firm when you started into our world or did you see yourself as an owner of a law firm when you started in our world and that's why you found in our world?

Or was it in our world you saw like where was it that the "aha" moment came that you realized you were actually the owner of a law firm?

Jodi Donato: In your world. When I joined your world, because prior to that, you know, someone said, what did you do? I said, I'm an attorney. Oh, who do you work for? I'm self-employed. I mean, that's what I said. I didn't say I have my own firm. It wasn't until I joined your world and it didn't take me that long to figure it out.

I am a quick study. You know, so I did figure out that, you know, [00:09:00] hey, you know, this is a business. And you know, which seems ridiculous cause my undergraduate degree was in business administration. So I mean, I knew all the things. I just saw myself as a professional person, not a business person.

Richard James: Good. I think you're not alone in that, but okay. So now we're a business person. I'm gonna take you to a darker place. Right? So, cause well I think this helps people. So what was your biggest entrepreneurial or business failure or setback that you saw in your journey to this point that you've learned from?

Jodi Donato: The biggest setback was the '08 crash.

Richard James: Hmm. Okay. And why was that such a big deal? Like what was it about that hurt you?

Jodi Donato: Well, I remember come August of '08, I looked at my [00:10:00] numbers. I hadn't looked at them that June cause I had some other stuff going on and I looked at them in August and almost had a heart attack because, I was nowhere near where I should have been from the prior year, and typically I would, you know, I always looked at my numbers, but June I would see where I was in June, project out, double that for the year.

Now I'm in August and I was nowhere it, you know, if I doubled June, it still wasn't gonna be anything good. You know, and I think that had an effect on me cause it took me a long time to bounce back from that. So I think mentally it affected me instead of my like, normal. All right.

You know, like, pull up your pants and let's go, kind of thing, you know, now, if you fast forward to December of [00:11:00] 2017, when the building I was in, burned down.

I was standing outside the building while the firemen were taking everything out of the building. And in my mind I kept saying, all right, you have all these appointments tomorrow for will signings. Where are you gonna do them?

And in my brain, I was running through all the possibilities, the library, a diner, a restaurant, you know, my house if I had to. I had all these ideas running through my head and a friend of mine told me about a friend of hers who had empty office space.

So I was actually in there the next day. That day I sent out emails to everyone listen. Had a building fire come to this address tomorrow to do your will signing. And you know, I took my laptop from home, my printer from home. A folding table and you know, but they had a conference room at least, so you know, and I did, I must have like five wealth signings cause it was between Christmas and New Year's and a lot of people take off that [00:12:00] week.

So they all scheduled their appointment and I literally had back-to-back appointments and I just went into survival mode.

MPS: I just pause for a moment and let's talk about the adversity in this story. So far, we had the 08-09 crisis, and then we rebound for a few years, 2017 hits, and the office burn building burns down and then you come back up out of that. I'd say this is a pretty impressive story and adversity.

Jodi Donato: Yeah, well, and less than two weeks later, the temporary office that I was in had a flood.

MPS: Let's pile it on.

Jodi Donato: So 50% of what I saved in the fire I lost in flood.

Richard James: Owww, no.

Jodi Donato: And a friend of mine said it sounded like a country song. So the only thing missing was alcohol. So I, you know, I said 50% of what, of the fire, what I saved in the fire. I lost in the flood, and I'm drowning my sorrows in a bottle of bud.

Richard James: Oh, nice. That's [00:13:00] good.

Jodi Donato: Yes. And then once I got into my current office again with a folding table and home printer and laptop I remember the first day I walked out and I shut the door. I looked at it and said, all right, I hope it's here. When I come back tomorrow.

MPS: Yeah.

Richard James: Okay, so you're,

Jodi Donato: I started telling people that if I found leeches, I was moving to a cave.

Richard James: And you would've, but here's what the interesting thing, Jodi, is I now know about you. You would've found a way to make that work, right? You would've just sold it to cavemen, I guess. So, like you, no, but in all seriousness, like you, we know you're resilient. That has been proven through this story.

And you also, you know, your quick study based on what you said and I've experienced. And so now let's switch gears, see if we can give people the other side of this is. What is the moment in this journey that you feel like you experienced? [00:14:00] That biggest breakthrough moment? Like when did that breakthrough moment happen?

When you know, you're okay, you had the resilience, but then you learned something. What was that broke you through that somebody else could benefit from hearing you tell them?

Jodi Donato: So for me it was after I joined, Partners Club. And coming to my first event.

Richard James: Hmm.

Jodi Donato: The amount of help that I got from the fellow partners, club members, and honestly, everyone telling me the same thing, that I had to fix my phones before I did anything else and hiring, you know, I had the virtual receptionist, but.

They were really just taking messages and I was trying to return all the phone calls. So moving to giving them a script to use, breaking it all out, giving them the questions to ask and [00:15:00] then letting them set the appointments, which was very hard to give up control of.

That was probably my biggest breakthrough because it freed up time for me to do other work. And at the same time, I had all these consults coming in.

MPS: That's a wonderful thing. So you were able to fix your phones by delegating. You were able to offload it from your shoulders and give it to somebody else, which allowed you to stack up a full calendar. Yes?

Jodi Donato: Yes, and my, probably my biggest problem prior to that was, you know, I did have some staff over the years and, you know, I was that person who, and I know I'm not alone in this, it was like, oh my God, it's easier for me to just do it than to try to explain it to her.

MPS: Hmm

Jodi Donato: You know, And now I realize that I'm one person, I can't do everything. And there are only 24 hours in a day. I [00:16:00] haven't figured out how to put 36 hours in a day yet.

So you know, I am just one person with two hands. So, you know, I can't be on three phone calls at once. I can't be doing five jobs at the same time. And I did come to realize and accept that multitasking is a myth.

MPS: Yes.

Jodi Donato: You know, unless it's a mundane task like watching TV and folding laundry, but.

MPS: Sure.

Richard James: But you just I wanna unpack that real quick cause I think you said something really important. Michael said it, you delegated and I think what I heard is, Jodi you stopped doing or wearing the $15, $20, $25 an hour hats, and you realized, look, your highest and best use was to be an excellent attorney in a biller of time.

Because that's your revenue producing opportunity. And so you started getting to the point where you were able to do more of your hourly billable work, [00:17:00] which was maximizing your revenue and minimizing your work on all the other administrative stuff and phone stuff and sale self because you were having somebody else do that for you, correct?

Jodi Donato: Correct.

Richard James: Yeah, I mean that if anybody's listening to that and they're in your boat, like, you know, by the way, size of your firm right now, you're still, you know, a smaller law firm with a few people, right?

Jodi Donato: It's right. It's me. I have two people working for me, and then I have two per diems that I, you know, like not well. Yeah, per diems, I would call them off site.

Richard James: So yeah, we've learned the art of outsourcing and taking advantage of some global labor discounts that we've talked about through the years. And so that's good. And we're, you're using trained individuals, but despite the smallness of your firm right now which I love, keep it small, keep it all mentality.

And we're gonna talk about where you might be going, but you've really finished out 2022 strong. I mean, it was right. I mean, it was your best year ever, right?

Jodi Donato: Yes, [00:18:00] absolutely. Best in 30. Best in the last 10. Best in the last 3.

Richard James: Nice.

MPS: That's fantastic.

Jodi Donato: Yeah, there's no doubt about it. And definitely delegating is the way to go. And I don't know if you remember me saying this, but having the accounting background, I like to do my own books. I have an accountant, but I like to do the day to day stuff and I am actually thinking about delegating that out.

MPS: Ah. A big moment here.

Jodi Donato: Cause I've been thinking about it.

MPS: I love it. I love it.

Jodi Donato: I enjoy it, but I've been thinking about it cause I just don't have the time.

Richard James: I love messing with software too, but if I spent all my days messing with software, I'm like, my business isn't gonna move. Right? And I could build out Infusionsoft or CRMs or whatever you want all day long. And I did that for years and I loved it, but it didn't serve me. It didn't serve my business.

I mean, there was a point at [00:19:00] which it did, but then it stopped. And you're probably realizing right now, you're starting to get to that point where it's no longer serving you, it's getting in the way of you doing other things that are revenue producing. So yeah, I agree.

Jodi Donato: Yes.

Richard James: Do you have a success habit that you've turned to now to, you know, whether it's managing yourself or something you do daily or on a regular basis to try to help you grow in the right direction? Stay on track.

Jodi Donato: I don't know that I would say I have a habit. Probably, honestly, the biggest thing to keep me on track is, and like I said, I still, there are times where I wanna go do that. Because I know I could get it done in two seconds and I have to keep myself. Nope leave it for Alyssa.

Richard James: Good. So it's,

Jodi Donato: You know.

Richard James: Discipline to not act.

MPS: Right.

Jodi Donato: Yes. Which is hard.

MPS: Yeah.

Jodi Donato: It's very hard.

MPS: I feel like that, whether we wanna call it habit or not, that leads to some of the successful [00:20:00] outcomes is the discipline that habit produces.

Richard James: Well, I think Michael, you would admit that discipline has been the secret, you know, to your success at his young career as well, right? I mean, having the discipline to act or not act at times at things that you shouldn't be doing. It's the key to the whole discipline's. The key, the glue that holds it all together, I think Jodi.

MPS: The cornerstone. Yeah, it's the cornerstone that keeps the ball rolling forward.

Richard James: So Jodi, what are you most excited about? What are you fired up about today? What are you looking forward towards, whether it be your business or personal, or both, but probably business if, since we're in that cycle, what? What are you excited about your business?

Jodi Donato: I'm looking forward to freeing up more time with delegation so I can do more planning more thoughts on marketing, because right now all my marketing is organic. I don't have any paid marketing. So you know, but I wanna get to a point where I can comfortably take in [00:21:00] the additional consults and clients before I branch out to paid marketing.

Richard James: Okay. So you want to build,

Jodi Donato: Right now,

Richard James: Of capacity?

Jodi Donato: Yes, cause with my organic marketing, I am pretty busy. You know, I'm pretty booked, so if I could get to the point where I can get more time in the calendar.

Richard James: Hey, by the way, did you have you raised your prices along the way here?

Jodi Donato: Oh, absolutely.

Richard James: Is that part of it? I mean, cause you're on your own, right? So if you were charging less, you know, years ago than you're charging now?

Jodi Donato: Oh yeah, I was pretty much, my theory was stay in line with the people that are in my area. You know, people who I considered were like me. So, and I would raise my rates over the years. I used to raise it, like on the anniversary of my admission.

And like I said, I first looked into Your Practice Mastered a [00:22:00] couple of years back, and one of the things your rep told me at the end when I said, no, I'm, I can't do this right now. I'm too scared. He told me to raise my hourly rate at that time. And he had given me one number. He said, I can't do that. And he said, okay. So he changed it by $5 to 395 an hour. He's like, okay. I was like, okay, I could do that. It wasn't easy. I did it. He also told me to raise my retainers, which that took me much longer to do.

And I think it really is a mindset because prior to that, I felt like. How could I do that? I'm not one of these big firms, you know, and I think I wasn't placing enough value on what I do, what I know, and who I am as an attorney.

Then I raised it again before, right around the time I came in. And then last year I raised it again. No, [00:23:00] last year or this year, I can't remember. No, this year, I went up this year cause it's 30 years of practicing, so I said I do it in February. Otherwise I'll forget when I do it.

MPS: And Jodi, correct me if I'm wrong here, but you didn't have all of your prospects start saying, oh, I'm not gonna work with her cause she raised her prices. In fact, I'd argue you, you've probably started to generate more clients, haven't you?

Jodi Donato: Well, I definitely generated more income and no, I've never had anyone say anything to me about the hourly rate. Maybe one or two have been like, oh, can you discount that at all? And I'll say, no, I'm sorry.

MPS: I love it goes to show you can, you can raise your prices and as long as you got the right systems and structures in place. People aren't gonna sit there and budge at it. You've continued to grow and expand in spite of it, while increasing profitability and increasing your personal income.

Richard James: Yeah, and I don't want to, I just wanna touch on it real quick, in case anybody's listening whoever, like raising the prices isn't [00:24:00] about price gouging the client. Like, that's not the goal. It's about having the right price for the services that allows the owner of the business to be able to build the business as opposed to being a slave to the business.

The reality is that, alcoholism and drug abuse and these types of things in the legal industry at an all time high mental illness, depression, anxieties are at an all time high. And I don't wanna say that profit is the, you know, lack of profit is the cause of it, but it's certainly a contributing factor.

And so when you have enough profit in your business to be able to afford support staff to help you take a lot of the stressful things off your table you just get a better quality of life. Would you agree with that overall statement, Jodi?

Jodi Donato: Absolutely, absolutely. And, it also enables you to delegate tasks in your personal life as well.

Richard James: Mm-hmm.

Jodi Donato: You know, 10 years ago I was outside working on my own pool every summer. [00:25:00] I don't do that anymore. I have a weekly service. 10 years ago I was trying to get the pool up and running and do all those things and, you know, fell in and got hurt and all that good stuff. But,

Richard James: I'm laughing because I've done it and I've fallen in doing it. Yes, so I can relate. I was raised in Scranton, Pennsylvania. So first of all, we didn't have a pool and anywhere we had a pool, the only way to swim in the pool was to take care of the pool. And so I could remember falling in as a kid, right.

Jodi Donato: But here's the question. Did you fall in with the cover on?

Richard James: No, I did not fall in with the cover on. Oh, no.

Jodi Donato: I was trying to throw the pump in to clean the cover and I went flying with the pump, hit my arm. I looked like I was beaten. I was so bruised.

Richard James: Oh.

MPS: Oh.

Richard James: That's actually dangerous, you know?

Jodi Donato: It was.

MPS: Yeah.

Jodi Donato: Caught up the cover, but I was able to and out the pool.

Richard James: Oh my goodness.

Oh, well, so I got a question as we wrap it up. So this is gonna serve two purposes and Michael might [00:26:00] have some comments on your answer. But one purpose is your younger self and the purpose is for anybody that might be listening that might be in the similar boat as you saw small and solo or maybe in a larger firm that is still struggling with growth and profitability right now, and they're learning from you.

What's that piece of advice you would give to your younger self, simultaneously to somebody who's listening? Like there's no one answer to anything, but what is that piece of advice you'd give your younger self?

Jodi Donato: You're a business. Run it like a business. Stay on top of billing and collections. Run it like a business. It's a business.

Richard James: I love it.

MPS: Well said. I think that's something a lot of law firm owners or attorneys are in the process of developing that mindset and I love that. I think that summarizes the whole thing for you, right? You went from being an attorney to an owner of a law firm.

Richard James: You went from, that's right. From being an attorney who happened to own a law firm, [00:27:00] to a business owner who chose to have legal services as their business. Right? Massive shift, paradigm shift in mindset.

Speaking of paradigm shift in mindset, Michael, we figured out a while ago that while we're willing to do this and put the work in, we do want a little bit something in return from our listeners. What is that?

MPS: Yeah, it's our gentleman's agreement. Look if this is not your first time listening or watching the show and this is more than the first and you're finding value from it, you're enjoying it. We invest our time, money, and resources into this show, and all we ask for in return is that you take a moment you like.

You comment, give Jodi props. She did a great job. Let us know if you have any questions for her, and then depending on where you're listening or watching, hitting that Follow, Subscribe button and turning those Bell Notifications on so you can continue watching or listening to more of these. We have fun making them and we're glad that you're enjoying.

Richard James: Yeah, I agree. We love porn in, we love having these guests and speaking to which Jodi, thanks so much for sharing today. Hey, if anybody wanted to reach out to you, do you just want 'em to hit you up on Facebook or [00:28:00] Instagram or go to your website? Like what would you like them to do if they wanna learn more about you or reach out to you in any way?

Jodi Donato: So my website is DonatoLawEI.com. Or you can email me at jodi@donatolawei.com.

Richard James: Great we'll put those in the show notes for everybody. Are you active on social media at all? And are you out there No? or not?

Jodi Donato: I am. I believe my Twitter is Donato Law.

Richard James: Yeah. No worries. We'll find.

Jodi Donato: I didn't give it. I'm not positive. I'm on Facebook under law, so you could find my Facebook page that way.

Richard James: No worries. We'll find it for you and put it in the show notes and we'll make sure it's all linked. But thank you so much for sharing your inside baseball with all those who are out of the world. Appreciate you giving kudos into our World and Partners Club.

But you know, that, how I feel about this, that we've talked to thousands attorneys through the years and you had to do the work and you had to be the one that went out there and made it happen, and you did. And so congratulations to you on, on your growth.

Jodi Donato: Thank you. Thanks, [00:29:00] Michael.

MPS: Thank you.

Richard James: Appreciate it's another good episode. I think we got some good things outta this. We got a couple of new headlines for everybody. I think it was a good call.

MPS: Sure was great work, Jodi.

Jodi Donato: Thanks.

Richard James: All right, everybody. This was the pod. Have a great day.