1, 2, 3.

Welcome to the Rap Report with your host, Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community.

For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeeternity.org well, welcome to another edition of the Rap Report.

I'm your host, Andrew Rappaport, the executive director of Striving Fraternity and the Christian podcast community of which this podcast is a proud member.

We are here to give you biblical interpretations and applications for the Christian life.

And, well, a major part of the Christian life is, well, dealing with the death of a loved one, specifically a spouse.

I have a guest on and here I'm already getting choked up.

I'm.

I'm just going to give the audience, as I, I said to Michelle before we got started, may get emotional.

We planned this a while ago and in that, in the interm of us just talking and planning and scheduling this, those in my audience, you know, my dear friend Matt Slick, his wife passed away a day before Thanksgiving and we were just up there, a bunch of us went up there to be with him just a couple of weeks ago.

So if I get emotional, just understand.

That's why.

So not my typical introduction for a guest.

But Michelle Bader Ebersol, did I say that right?

That last.

Yes, you did.

You got it.

I was working on it, folks, very hard.

We're going to discuss her book, which is called the Widow's Goals.

Widow Goals.

And so what I would like to do is if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself to the audience.

And I'm sure part of your introduction is going to get into your background on how you came about writing this book.

So if you could just introduce your folks yourself to our folks.

All right, well, thanks, Andrew, for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

And emotions are good.

So if you're having emotions, I mean, I talk about this a lot.

Just let yourself feel it.

So it's okay.

Like, you don't ever want to stuff those.

So it's okay that you're feeling those emotions.

It's part of grief.

So it's, there's so much to introduce where I'm at, but I am currently, I live in Washington.

I have three kids that are 17, 19 and 21.

I am remarried to my husband Joel.

We've been married almost three years and I was widowed in 2020 to my husband Luke.

We were married almost 17 years.

Long story short, and I don't know what questions you'll be asking me, but to just kind of give the introduction.

He, he had bone when he was 25, had his leg amputated.

The cancer was gone for 13 years, came back in his lungs.

And he fought it with chemo and everything and lived about three more years and died May 23, 2020.

And I was a 41 year old widow.

And even though I knew it was coming, it was super difficult and I had to learn how to lead myself and three teenagers through it, which, yes, did lead me to writing this book.

So that's a little bit about where I'm at now.

And I'm sure we'll fill in the hol with my story, but it's hard to.

Yeah.

Introduce myself without sharing part of my background because it's where I am today.

I am an executive director as well of a non profit called Widow Goals, same name as my book.

And the whole motto of Widow Goals is Widows helping widows not only survive but thrive.

And so we provide groups for widows across the country.

We meet once a month as well as we have retreats.

We have a retreat coming up in a few weeks where we have 70 widows registered to come.

And so I love help helping people.

I basically created what I wish was there for me when I became widowed.

You know, that's an important thing, what you just said, because a lot of people don't realize that things that happen in our life.

I listen to a lot of health podcasts as well.

I'm very health conscious.

I didn't used to be as much, but I now go to the extremes of doing both heat therapy and saunas, which people go, well, not a big deal.

But then I do the cold plunges first thing in the morning.

And it's interesting because one of the podcasts I listen to, he, he'll always interview people and he'll interview people that are just, they, they've found something out with, you know, something, something more unique.

They create a cold plunge.

They find out hydrogen water helps all these different things.

But they did it because something like they.

He'll always ask what happened because there's always something in life.

And that.

Right.

Brought that about.

And a lot of people, I mean, as Christians, I think we have a different view on life.

That Right.

Is going to affect it.

But there are those even in the world where something happened to bring about everything that they're now doing, whether it be, yes, you know, creating health companies or, or things like that, or in, in your case, creating a whole ministry.

Yes.

You wished was there for you and that's that's the thing that I always hear people say is I wish this was around when I was going through something.

And so first off this, I wasn't planning on asking this till later, but a good starting point.

How is it to, to take?

Because I guess the, the thing is when someone goes through what you went through at a young age and I.

Sorry, folks, I think, you know, if, you know, Paul could refer to Timothy in his 40s Being young, I'm perfectly okay with calling someone in their 40s young.

Okay.

If you're younger and you think 40 is old, wait till you get to your 60s and then you're going to realize, what was I thinking?

But talk about how you, you took something that could be so devastating in someone's life and how you, how you turned it around into the ministry that you have today.

Yeah.

And I love that you say forties is young.

I love that I'm gonna hold on to that.

It's something whenever, whenever I'm teaching through where Paul says to Timothy, don't, you know your youth?

You realize, wait, he's saying that to him.

And Timothy was probably like 40 at the time.

I never realized that.

So that's, that's great.

So, yeah, when I was widowed, you know, Luke had cancer, so we knew it was coming, but you're never fully prepared.

And I was devastated, even though I knew it was coming, and reached out to my own church and every church I could find.

And no one had any widows groups.

All I was told is, you can start one.

And I was, you know, brand new.

I wasn't in a place to start anything.

And I did have a few friends that were widowed that I reached out to and that was very helpful.

But I, I really wanted to start something because there's something so powerful when you gather like minded people together.

And so I decided the very first thing I did was a Mother's Day te.

Because Mother's Day is actually one of the hardest days for a widow because usually it's the husband who gave them things, not just the kids, at least if you have younger kids.

And so we did a Mother's Day tea and gathered, I think six or seven widows.

And from there I just started gathering people and we started meeting the third Monday of every month.

We still do it several years later.

And there's just such camaraderie that comes when you're together.

And in addition to that, I guess I have to back up.

That was not the first thing I did.

The first thing I did is start my Book.

I was actually in this contest for this book proposal.

Long story short, I wrote three chapters of my book when I was, like, six months out.

I knew nothing compared to what I learned, and I'm so thankful it didn't get published.

It wasn't picked up, and I just set it to the side for a little bit.

And then I met a widower on Facebook, and we became really good friends, and we decided he's also a Christian.

And we were like, we need to show these people Jesus.

Because on Facebook, there's a lot of widow groups, but a lot of them were turning to all the wrong things.

So we said, let's start a podcast.

So I was 11 months into my journey when I started a podcast called Widow Too soon, which is still going four and a half years later.

And we just started talking about all things widowed.

So he had the widower perspective with little kids.

I had the widow with teenagers.

We just started talking through our life.

And so the first couple years are really just us talking through everything.

And then we turned it more into what it is now.

It's an interview style where I interview widows from all over the world.

And that was so great.

I felt like if God healed me, like, I want to show other people, like, they don't need to turn to all the wrong things.

And so this really.

This passion was born to help widows.

And so I had the podcast, and then I started the nonprofit, and then we started doing retreats in 2023.

And that was huge.

Just pouring into these widows and just seeing how much, like, the healing was possible in a few days, like, plugging them.

Jesus, like, we can have great tools, but really, God is the ultimate healer, and so it's directing people to him.

I became a grief recovery specialist, which has amazing tools, but I'm always like, it's not.

It's not this.

It's God.

Like, really, he's the healer, you know?

And so this passion started.

And then, you know, I realized through my research and learning more about widows, that widows are mentioned 103 times in the Bible, yet so few churches have a ministry who for widows.

And why is this?

You know, I started diving into, like, we've got to get some awareness out there, because a lot of widows leave the church because it is the place you feel the most alone.

And when I say widows, I mean widowers as well, just kind of use the term together, because suddenly you're not.

It's usually families.

And then there are great ministries like Divorce Care and Celebrate Recovery and all these things.

But there's nothing for widows most of the time.

And so my passion grew to try to get education and program for churches.

And so that's what I've done now in addition to my book, I created a workbook and a leader's guide and I'm working on taking it to churches.

In fact, in two days I'm having a meeting with my pastor to get it into our church and just trying to get some education.

So I guess to answer your question, I got to where I am today because I felt like God healed me in so many ways, which there's a lot of stories to all those things that happened.

But I was like if God healed me, then I want to direct people to him.

I literally saw him turn my morning to dancing and make beauty from my ashes.

And so I want to continue to show that to other people.

So that's kind of how I got to where I am today, which is important.

I mean my pastor does, has been doing for many years grief share.

He's, he's an ACBC counselor and he has been able to help a lot of people.

And, and it is a way where yes people through that because he's sharing the gospel each, each time that, that people get saved.

We have many, several members of our church that are from that.

But it is something that you bring out that I have noticed as well that churches don't focus on widow widowers very much.

They might have a singles ministry.

And I always, and I've always found it odd that someone who loses their spouse and the only thing the church has for them is go join a singles group.

Right.

No, I, I'm like why?

Like I, I remember my first pastor preached through first Timothy 5 and he suddenly realized why are we doing nothing for widows?

Like we should start saving a widow's fund so that we could care for the way.

Why should the widows be going on government assistance?

That's the church's job.

And, and by the way, when government takes the church's job away like education, caring for others they do a horrible job at usually goes to the politicians pockets and not to the people who need it.

Just saying so but it is, I think it is a big need.

And I think that people don't view how taking care of widows in that culture and, and fatherless children.

Yeah.

Is an important element.

And I'll ask those in the audience just do you have anyone in your church who's a widower or widower or, or someone who is raising children?

A single mom, single dad.

But it's Usually, often it's the single mom.

I mean, let me just say for you men out there, if you have young men in your church who are being raised by a single mom, are you doing anything to be a father figure in their life because they need it?

And that's a, that's a thing that a lot of people don't think of.

It's like the widows and widowers.

It's the.

Unfortunately, a lot of the church, as you said, tends to, to act as if the norm is to be married.

Yes.

And when I was single, I was older.

It was, it, it really did play a part.

Because, I mean, quite frankly, every, every single girl that came in the church, my pastor's wife tried to set me up with her.

And I'm like, that, that one just got saved a few weeks ago.

Like, what do you, like, leave it alone.

God could take care of this, you know.

Yeah, but that unbeknownst a lot, people tend to think like that, well, you should be married.

You should, like, if you're a widow or widower, you should remarry all of a sudden.

And so let me first ask you that question.

I know you, you address some of these things in your book, but I mean, is it okay to stay as a widower and not remarry?

Is, is, is that a bad thing?

I mean, should we expect that we have to get remarried to be normal?

And I'm using that term in air quotes, right?

No, it's 100 okay to stay single.

I have widow friends that don't ever desire to get married again.

And that's okay.

It's so individual, you know, I knew that I was going to get married again.

I had a vision from God and like, I pretty much, I knew.

So for me, it wasn't like this big out of the, you know, box thinking for me, it was something I knew I wanted.

But I have a lot of friends who are just like, I don't, I don't want to do it again.

And that's okay.

And then sometimes they think they're not going to, and then somebody will show up or, you know, it's like wherever they're at.

What we don't need is people from the outside, because it happens all the time, saying there's two things people say, like, oh, you should move on, it's time, or, why are you moving on so fast?

I got that.

Like, people like to judge it, but it's nobody's business.

Like, it's between that person and God, like, what they need for their lives.

I've seen widows, widows get married within a year.

I've seen widows Never marry or 10 years later.

It's really, it doesn't matter.

And so it's really hard when people from the outside judge whether it's too soon or what it means.

And how I explain getting remarried when you're a widow is.

It's like, you know, because people like, well, how can you love both?

Because it's a current love, it's not a past love.

Like, I love Luke and I love Joel.

It's like when you have a child and you think, I'll never love another child this much.

And then you have a second one and you do.

It's like that your heart expands to love them both.

You are not forgetting your first spouse by getting married again.

And, and then a lot of people have trouble with feeling guilty.

Like, I don't, I don't want to date again, and I don't.

It just feels wrong.

Which it does feel wrong in the beginning, I'm gonna be honest with.

It was a hard process.

But eventually it's like, no, this is not like what that person would want for me.

They wouldn't want me to stay stuck in this place and all of that.

But yeah, it's a very interesting subject for widows.

It's one of the most talked about.

Our dating episodes are the top listened to episodes of any podcast that we've done because people are very interested in the topic, whether or not they get married again.

But it's, it's very individual.

So there's nothing wrong with someone wanting to stay single like a lot of people do.

And that is okay.

I just knew that wasn't what I wanted, but some people do.

Yeah.

And I'm going to come back to the guilt because there is something I want to bring up with that in, in a few minutes.

But let, let's start at the beginning.

I thought that the.

So you got 30 different goals for folks.

And when I started reading your book, Goal 1, I was like, yeah, duh, this is where it should begin.

Because if you haven't gone through, and I have not, I have gone through a lot of death in my life, unfortunately from a young age.

But.

But there is a despair, there is a depression that could set in.

You started out the book right where it should start, with the first goal.

And I think that's an important place for us to start because whether, whether someone you know is going through it right now or has gone through it, or maybe if you're married and you're Thinking like, well, I mean, it's going to happen one day unless you both go together.

Right.

It's good to have a plan ahead of time.

And plan ahead of time will prevent, you know, some of the things that, that, you know, Michelle is, deals with in her, in her book.

And so, so hence now, if you're married right now, now might be a good time to get the book in preparation because one of one or you or your partner may end up having to deal with it.

But let's start at the beginning.

What is goal one and why is it so important?

Important, great question.

It's get out of bed.

And that's the first step.

And it, it sounds simple, but when you're in deep grief, which if you haven't lost a spouse, you can relate in other ways, I'm sure you've been through some kind of deep grief.

It's hard to even want to get out of bed and face the day.

And so that.

What.

That's why that's so important.

And we talk about like even enlisting a friend to help you if you need help with that.

But you've got to get out of the bed because you won't be able to do any of the other steps.

So the full title is Widow Gold steps to finding peace when you lose your spouse.

And so there are 30 individual goals that can be taken in any order except for get out of bed really is the first one.

And you won't be able to do anything else.

Like, we were made to live life and life abundantly.

Right.

And if we're stuck in bed, we're not going to be able to do that.

And so that's why that one is so important.

You won't be able to do anything else.

And yes, there are times when you do need to lay in bed for a day and have a good cry and all of that.

You just don't want to stay stuck there.

So that is why I started the book with that goal, because we want to be able to get out of bed and do the other things.

Yeah.

And, and some of the other things, one that struck me was, I'm going to let you talk about it, but goal number four, because I watched this with my dad when my mother wasn't doing well, he wasn't taking care of her, wasn't taking care of himself.

He was, he's so focused on taking care of her until she passed.

And then afterwards it was like he had this rude awakening where he's like, well, you know, my health has gone bad because I wasn't focused on it because he was a full time caregiver.

But.

So let's talk about goal number four that you have, which is yes, remember.

Remember to take care of yourself.

This is so huge.

Especially just there's my ear of everybody around you and trying to make sure they're okay and doing all the things that you can often forget to take care of yourself.

And every week when I go see my counselor, she would say, like, what are you doing for you?

And so I always ask people that, like, what is.

So I'd have to be prepared to come back the next week.

Like, oh, I went on a run, I took a bubble bath, I did this.

Like we have to take care of ourselves.

And the, this, the, the same thing.

She would always tell me, you got to put on your own oxygen mask before you can help those around you.

And so what are you doing for you?

Like even the beginning, I mean I would even forget to eat.

Like it was.

You're just in this way.

It's like a, a roller coaster really.

You're in this crazy everything happening at once and trying to do like funeral plans and for me, taking care of my three teenage kids and all of their emotions and everything that you have to take care of, take care of yourself.

And so often when we're in that grief we can forget like, what is it that's going to help me?

What are the things that I need?

And so you really have to make your healing your priority and like really dive into that and definitely like taking care of yourself.

Getting enough sleep, which is one of the hardest things for widows and widowers.

I couldn't sleep well for years.

It started for me when Luke was, was sick and I would, I wouldn't go.

Want to go to sleep and that he would die while I was sleeping.

And so I couldn't sleep.

And then it just kind of like after he was gone then it was like lonely not having him there.

And it was just a very hard cycle.

Night is definitely the hardest time.

So it's really important that you find ways to take care of yourself.

Yeah.

Because especially in your case, you had teenage kids.

Yeah.

And so if you're not taking care of yourself, how could you take care of them?

Exactly.

And yeah, more, more specific to the emotional aspect of it because it.

Teenagers or.

When I lost my mother, I was 10 years old, I had no way of knowing how to deal with that and handle that.

I wasn't sure enough to.

And, and my father was dealing with his own grief even though he Knew it was coming.

You know, he had, he had to deal with a 13 year old, 10 and 7 year old children.

Right?

Yeah.

And each of us emotionally at a different stage, dealt with it differently or.

Or didn't deal with it.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

And he needed to first take care of himself to be able to help us emotionally.

How important is.

And I know you deal with this in the book, but the emotional aspect of that, we're not the only one.

If we have children in that case, or even if our children are adults, they may be better apt to handle things, but we're not suffering alone with this.

It affects other people as well.

How important is it for us to recognize that we're not the only one suffering here?

Very important.

Because you need to take care of.

Yeah.

Even if you have adult kids, you need to be checking in with them and how they're doing.

And then another thing that I, I've seen it go both ways where I tried to normalize talking about Luke like as soon as he died, like continuing to talk about him.

Oh, what do you think daddy would think about this?

You know, we still do to this day, five and a half years later.

But I've seen the other side of it where they don't say their name anymore.

And it is not a good healthy environment because the kids are keeping everything inside and never like they don't want to speak their name because then they might cry, which actually tears are healing.

They're a really good thing, you know.

And so I say it's like really important to be checking in on your other loved ones who, you know, might be in this deep, dark place.

Now if you're the one who's just widowed, it's hard to check in on anyone else.

But if you have kids, you've got to, you know, be able to do that.

And I highly recommend counseling.

And as soon as you can for you and your kids, it's one of the best things that you can do.

And I tell people in your first year of grief, like, you need to act like healing is your job.

Like that's what you do as much as you can.

Because it's that important.

If you don't heal, you're not going to be able to do anything.

And so you need to pour into it.

So what did that look like?

For me, it was every grief book I could find.

Grief counseling, regular counseling, a grief retreat, which it was Covid.

So that was a miracle that I found one because it was.

I went in August of 2020.

No, July of 2020.

We found one.

But basically, literally everything I could find, I did.

And then pouring into God's word, turning on worship music and crying and just like, giving it to God.

And that means, like, you've got to do your part.

So this is another.

I know a lot of grief myths, so one of them is that time heals.

So here's what I like to tell people.

Let's say I went out to my car right now, I had a flat tire, and I was like, you know what?

Going to come back in a year.

It's going to be better.

No, it's not.

If I don't do the work right, if I don't put the air up to it and do all those things, it's the same with our grief.

I have met people five years down the road, 10 years down the road, they're in the same place because they didn't work on their grief.

And so that's got to be your job when you're new in healing.

And your job is to help your kids to know how to do that.

Because this is one of my favorite quotes, what we feel God can heal.

If we don't feel it, we don't.

He's not going to be able to do the work that he wants to do in order to heal it.

And so you don't want to stuff your tears.

You don't want to stuff, like, my kids know that.

Like, if you're crying, like, let's keep it going.

Like, don't stop it.

I've had to tell my kids that, like, I'm not comforting you because you need to feel this, because otherwise there's no way to get to the other side of it.

So, yeah, all of those things are really important.

So that's an important point for us to.

To realize, because what a lot of people will think is the best thing to do is make myself busy.

No, make myself not think about it.

Let me.

Let me just put lots of activities in the day and put it out of my mind.

You're saying that's not a healthy thing to do?

No, not at all.

In fact, in the grief recovery handbook, which is where I learned everything, becoming a grief recovery specialist, it talks about that's one of the biggest myths, too, is to keep busy, because it's actually not good to you.

You're basically, like, avoiding the tire, avoiding filling it up.

So it's still going to be there.

So there.

There is a fine line where you do want to have activities on your calendar.

You know, you still want to be out and doing things.

But when you're so busy that you don't let yourself feel, that's when you have a problem.

Like, you have to be able to have that downtime and to feel it.

So the book also.

That book talks about sturbs.

It means short term energy relieving behaviors.

It's anything we do to not feel.

And there's things like binge watching shows.

I definitely did that one.

Shopping, alcohol, like all kinds of things.

Like anything that we do not to feel important, to not just avoid those things or even being busy with healthy things.

Like, it can be too much if you're not letting yourself have that time to process and have the time to heal and to have that time to fill up your tire.

Otherwise you're going to be in the same place.

So that is another huge mistake that a lot of people make is just keeping busy because they're still going to feel the pain later.

It just stacks up for years and years and years and then it's worse.

And so it's like, you have to go through this.

You have to feel it, you have to talk about it.

It.

Okay, so trick question.

It's always good to let these people know it's a trick question right up front.

What's the exact time when we should start cleaning up their old clothes and all?

Because there's a set time, isn't there?

No, actually, it's whatever you want.

Just like the dating question.

It's whatever you want.

I have known people that have cleaned out things the day their spouse died.

And those who leave it for decades, aids, like, it's all okay.

I mean, for me, it was like for a month, I didn't let anyone touch anything.

Like, even like his cup that he last drank from and his glasses, like, everything sitting the way he had it.

I had.

The kids were like, you didn't let us touch it.

And then one day I was like, oh, I kind of want to like get some of this stuff out of the room, you know?

And it just, it just was like a day I decided, like, I just woke up and felt like it.

And you know, one of the things I do suggest, if you do want to get rid of everything right away, don't go give it to Goodwill the day one.

Like, just put it in a closet or something, you know, because you might want it later, your kids might want it.

Like, don't make a decision that quick because you might want it back.

Just move it out of your sight if you need to do that.

But yeah, there's no Pressure for a certain amount of time that it has to be in order to go through their things.

You know, I have a lot of loose things, and I'm.

It's five and a half years later and I'm remarried, and I still have a lot of things.

Like, it's just.

There's no time that it has to be.

Yeah.

And you bring up a point, because one of the things I do in counseling in these situations is I'll recommend.

Recommend get a storage unit if you need to get it out of this out of sight.

But I recommend people don't get rid of things right away without first talking to the family.

Right.

If you have children, you may.

You may get rid of something not realizing that one of.

One of the kids or your.

Your spouse's brother or sister or parent would have wanted.

Exactly.

You're actually, you know, it ends up, I find, hurting their grieving process when they might have wanted something, they didn't voice it.

They didn't know if it's the right time, and then it's gone.

Right.

And they're like, that's right.

Well, I really would have liked to have that.

Right.

And so if you have to.

If you.

I. I never, almost never recommend storage units to folks like, don't.

Don't get storage units just to keep more material things.

Right.

But this is a good use of a storage unit is just get it to say, I.

It's too much memories.

If you need to get it out of the house.

That may be a thing, you know, advice I've heard often, and I think you may put this in a.

In your myth category is a lot of people say as soon as.

As soon as a spouse passes, you should move, get rid of all so you don't have any of the memories.

Would that be in your myth category?

Yeah, I would think so.

Although I personally moved 11 months after Luke died.

But it was something I had been planning.

Like, I knew he was dying, and I wanted to move closer to my family.

And so I knew it's something.

I mean, I wouldn't move, like, right away, but I don't think that you have to wait a year like some people say, you have to wait a year.

For me, it was a very healthy thing to get away from everything.

I had a lot of really hard memories, and he died in our bed in our.

In our bedroom.

And I just.

I didn't want to be there anymore.

You know, just too many hard memories.

But I don't think it's something like you should make a decision Right away about that.

So I don't know if it's a myth or not.

I think it's another thing that's very personal.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way with that.

I mean, I wouldn't move within the first two months or something, but, yeah.

I wouldn't make any big decisions right away.

Right.

I mean, that's right.

I, I'll counsel anyone that's going through it.

Don't make a big decision without bouncing it off somebody.

Yes, that too.

That is maybe a little bit less close to the situation.

Yes, yes.

You know, they don't have, I mean, bouncing it off your kids, even if they're adult kids.

Hey, I'm thinking of moving next week, like, but we just did the funeral.

Right.

Maybe talk to someone who's not so close to it.

True.

Yes, I agree.

So, you know, we, we talked a little bit about guilt.

And I wanted to come back to this because.

And I don't know how you end up counseling, you know, ladies when they're going through this, but when I go, When I deal with couples who have lost, you know, a spouse and now they're, they, you know, I've dealt with this many times where you have two people, they each lost a spouse, now they're getting together and they're going to get married.

And when, if, if I'm doing the counseling before marriage, there's an important thing when it comes to guilt that people don't often think about, and that is the feeling like, especially if you've been married for a very long time, you're now getting married to someone new, and you kind of got to let go of the guilt that you're not cheating on your spouse.

Right?

Yeah.

This is.

You're now married to someone new.

And this is a beautiful thing.

This is part of that relationship, is part of the marriage relationship.

And there's a lot of guilt that I find people have.

I mean, I, I knew a couple.

This is where I ended up realizing there was a couple, that they both had lost a spouse.

They got married to one another, but they weren't having the marriage relationships because they couldn't get over the guilt that they were cheating on their spouse.

And after two years, I'm like, wait, you're what?

Like, so I realized part of it is that guilt that they have to deal with.

And people need to know that going into the marriage, when you're going into marriage to recognize that, yes, you are going to feel guilty.

You are going to feel like you're committing adultery.

That's the emotions.

But you need to think yourself through that and know what's going on.

You.

You kind of got to deal with that guilt ahead of time.

So guilt's a major thing when you have this situation where people get remarried.

So I would like you to spend a little bit of time discussing just the emotion of guilt, how that affects us, and what are some plans people can have ahead of time to deal with those guilty feelings so that they could deal with them.

Well.

Right.

Yeah.

I personally experienced it more, like, in the dating process.

And then I feel like I was through it before I got married, but just, like, you know, the first time you're, like, alone with a man that's not your husband, it's just very strange.

Like, it's just, like, a strange feeling.

But I. I was able to separate it.

Like, this was my chapter with Luke, and now this is my chapter with Joel.

And, like, I was able to.

To do that.

And.

And a lot of people's guilt comes from, like, oh, you know, like, what would that.

What would my spouse be thinking if they could see me right now?

And I have to go to when I started feeling that.

Like, well, number one, like, he's in heaven in a whole different world.

We don't even understand.

Like, he would not be even if he could see this moment.

Like, he wouldn't be upset.

He's in his perfect state, and, like, he loved me and would want me to be happy.

I've seen the most guilt from the people who they're supposed to.

Spouses said, don't ever marry again.

Like, people have said that to them.

And.

And that's really hard.

And that's where I have to counsel them to just, like, release that.

Like, that's.

That's not what God's best is for you.

Like, you know, if you desire to get married again, you can't hold on to that.

And it's just, I think, just learning to separate it.

Like, you know, this was my marriage to, like, for me, it's.

This is my marriage to Luke.

This is my marriage to Joel.

They're two separate things.

Things like, if Luke hadn't died, I would still be married to him 100.

You know, like, with him.

And so separating that out.

And then a lot of guilt for widows comes from laughing again and being happy again, whatever that is, whether it's dating or not.

And, well, my husband died.

I can't laugh.

No, you can.

Like, you can have joy again.

And so separating the two and learning that laughing again doesn't mean you're not grieving.

It doesn't mean you don't.

Don't miss them.

Grief and joy can and do coexist.

You can have them at the same time.

So much so that at our wedding.

So Joel and I got married 3-18-23.

We actually read this.

Just kind of like, I walked down the aisle, and then I said, I have something I want to share with everyone.

And it was about, whatever you're feeling today is okay because we know there had to be death in order for this day to happen.

And so if you're having grief but you're happy, it's okay.

Like, we just wanted to kind of acknowledge the elephant in the room, that it's okay to have both.

And so I think the guilt thing is just, like, you have to, like, ask God to help you with that and to release it and be like, I have no reason to feel guilty.

I'm not doing anything wrong.

And then I had the added point when my kids at first were like, my oldest, like, he was like, no, you can't.

It's wrong.

Bible says it's wrong.

I'm like, no.

You know, until death just took part.

Until, you know, I fulfilled my vows to your dad.

Like, he, he had.

My oldest had a really hard time with that in the beginning.

So sometimes I've met a lot of widows who have the kids layer on top of it because their kids are making them feel guilty, but realizing, like, what is truth?

Like, I fulfilled my vows.

Like, I am free to date again.

I am free to marry again.

And, you know, releasing that.

So, yeah, it can definitely be complicated.

But I highly recommend working through that before you get married.

I, that would be so hard if I was dealing with that when I was married.

And so, like, just.

Yeah.

Trying to work through it before then.

Well, yeah.

And so let me.

How's the relationship with your kids and your new husband?

Oh, it's good.

Yeah.

Like, they don't see him like a dad.

They see him like he's always been like, I'm never going to be your dad.

I'm just another support person.

And so the oldest has had less time with him because he doesn't live here.

But my.

I would say my youngest probably has the best relationship because they spend time together and they do Bible study together, and he taught him how to drive and, like, all of those things.

And so, yeah, it's.

It's pretty good.

Good.

Yeah.

I've.

I have told my bride that if I go, I, I, I, I've Prepared ahead of time because I tell her, go get married.

Like, I don't.

Good.

That's so good.

People don't think about this, but if you are married to someone now, maybe I'm not using the best language.

Release them now for a time when you're, you may not be.

Yes.

I don't want my wife feeling guilty.

I mean I just knowing my bride, she probably won't get married.

Just knowing her, she probably, she'd be fine just playing with the grandkids.

Yeah.

But like in my dad's case, he had three young kids he wanted, he knew that we needed a mother in our life.

And you know, and I did get to a point where I, I, people get confused when, because I refer to my stepmother as my mother.

I, there's no distinction there.

And so it's, it's good if you can get a relationship like that.

I mean my, my mother, my, my stepmother was really good friends with my mother's mother.

Okay.

So like her, her mother in law through the right.

Like yeah, it's, it's, it's not like my dad's mother.

It was, it was my mom's mom.

And, and they were, they would talk all the time.

And so it's great if you can have that.

But a lot of it I think does come into releasing people ahead of time so that they don't feel like, yes, they're doing something wrong by, by dating, they're cheating on like, no, I want my wife to feel free to, to marry.

I, I've told her, hey, if you want to take the ring off, that's, that's not a problem.

Like, you need to be happy.

You, you need to do what you need to do if I'm gone.

And people, I think, I think people have good intentions of saying, hey, don't get remarried.

You know, think about me like, because, because they, they, they.

It's somewhat in a place maybe of some selfishness of being like, oh yeah, I don't want you loving someone else because we're together.

But, but then if, that, if your spouse goes.

When you have those kind of thinkings, you think, well, I can't get remarried because I'd be cheating.

And it's once as, as you said and it's an important thing and I'm going to steal it from you.

Right.

Even though it's so simple.

Simple is your, your responsibility was done at death.

Do us part.

Yeah, there's not a.

Look, we're not going to be married in heaven.

I, I don't quite like that.

This side of heaven.

But I'm sure I'm gonna understand it the other side.

But there is somewhere.

We're not.

We're gonna have a totally different relationship in heaven with our spouses.

And so we.

I'm just going to say to you as the audience, if you're married or plan to get married, like, don't put that guilt on someone.

That's right.

Let them feel free to remarry.

They're not.

It's.

They're not doing anything against your relationship that you had with them by doing that.

I don't know if you want to add any more to that.

That.

But it's a really important thing.

Seen both sides, though.

You know, the ones who say, don't marry, and then the ones who their husbands have told them or their wives have told them, you're free to remarry.

It's such a difference.

And I was somewhere in between.

I didn't have either.

Like, Luke never taught.

We never talked about it.

And I did have guilt because right before he died, like, 10 days before he died, like, he had a new diamond put in my ring, and it was like this whole thing, which was hard, but.

But the hospice nurse is like, this is his last wish.

Just go with it, you know?

And I knew I probably wouldn't be wearing it forever, and so that was hard, but now it's saved for my daughter.

But I went through some of that.

That guilt because he had.

He just didn't want to talk about the future.

It's not that he said I couldn't.

He just could not handle that thought.

So I went through some of that.

But I would say, yeah, I think that's great to go ahead right now.

If you're married right now, hopefully nothing's going to happen anytime soon, but just tell your spouse that, because there's such freedom for those who their spouses have told them, I want you to remarry.

I want you to do this.

You know, it's just so beautiful.

Then they.

They have way less guilt.

So, yeah, it's something that we could do now in order to help the future.

That's a great point.

I've never thought of it like that.

Yeah, I mean, look, I. I have thought through, and I don't know what I would do, but when do it?

When would I take the ring off?

Do I do it right away?

Would I.

Would I wait?

Like, I think that I'd probably leave my ring on until I re.

If I remarry.

Till I remarry, and then I put a new ring on with a new spouse.

But it's good to think about these things before.

I know.

I know so many people.

I'm sure, Michelle, you've dealt with this as well, having dealt with so many widows, widowers.

Of people who just don't want to think about that.

Yeah.

Of.

They don't.

Even though they haven't even become a widow or widow yet.

People don't want to.

They just don't want to think about being without their spouse.

Right.

I remember when I first got married, my bride would tell me she.

She just preferred.

She really wanted to be in heaven because that's where Christ was.

And I'm like, don't you want to be here with me?

Like, yeah, we're married.

And, like, I kind of felt like, hey, like.

Like, is it.

You don't like the marriage?

And.

And it was.

It.

It.

It bothered me a little.

But, you know, I come to realize and appreciate.

No, what it is, is, like, yes, we have a greater appreciation for being with Christ, and marriage is something we have here on earth, but we have to be able to be realistic about the future.

I mean, look, I don't want to surprise anyone, but the statistics say 10 out of 10 people die.

Mm.

It's going to happen to you one day, and it's going to happen to your spouse one day.

I hope that's not a shocker, but it's gonna happen.

But if we just try to ignore it.

Right.

And pretend like it's never gonna happen or.

I don't want to think about it.

Why.

Why is that such a bad thing to do, Michelle, to just not think.

People.

People don't like to talk about death at all.

You know, people are very strange.

They don't know what to do with death and grief and all of that.

And so they just, you know, don't want to think about it.

It's easier not to think about.

I mean, I can relate to that.

I haven't had these conversations with my second husband because it freaks me out, like, even going down that path again.

But.

So I think that's why, like, people don't want to deal with it.

They don't want to think about being gone.

It is a hard thing.

The whole, like, not being in married in heaven thing is hard, like, all of it.

But now I would have two husbands, so what are we gonna do with that?

So.

So I. I understand that, but I think it's just so many people don't want to talk about death at all now.

If they're Mormon.

I guess they'd be okay with the multiple wives.

They'd be okay with lots of wives.

Yeah, I don't know that they would be okay with the multiple husbands.

I don't know how that works.

Yeah, how's that gonna work?

That doesn't work for them.

But hey, listen, after this break you had something in your book that I really appreciated and it's about dealing with holidays because holidays become a very difficult time especially, I mean I had a conversation with my friend Matt.

He lost his wife just before Thanksgiving, like the day before.

I think it was two days before Thanksgiving that, that all the girls got in and they, they pulled the plug.

They ended up putting her on, you know, life support and you know, they just, they did that until the girls could get there.

And, and then, then you know, like we, we talked about what it's like with holidays and you know, now Thanksgiving is always like, seems to, is might have that every year and then you know, this, this Christmas was, was hard, you know, New Year's and so, you know, just that you have three holidays back to back.

I want to talk about the holidays after this break so because I think what you had in your book, you had some ideas that I really want to explore because there were things I never heard anyone else say.

So let's talk about that right after this, this break from our sponsors.

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So we are with author Michelle Shell.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna try again.

But Ebersol, I'm getting a nod that I said it right.

Yeah, you got it.

You got it right.

It is, you know, Rapaport to me.

Seems like it's, it's exactly like it's, it sounds exactly like it's spelled but I get some of the craziest creations so.

But you.

Michelle is the author of Widow Goal Widows.

Widow Goals Steps to finding peace with your loss.

So I, I, I.

This is something that you had in.

And I'm, I don't remember which goal it was, but dealing with holidays.

And I, I.

You gave me an idea that I had never thought of that.

That you do with your.

Your family.

Because a lot of people, it's like, well, we want to just recreate the exact same thing that we always did for holidays.

And then the flip side is, we don't want to ever do it, and we can't do it at all.

And you found a really good balance that brought the kids into things that I was like, that's ingenious.

I never would have thought of that.

I'm so glad that I read it in your book.

So what are some ideas you have about holidays?

Just how.

How should we kind of deal with the holidays, the emotions of it, and then do kind of.

Do we have to keep the same traditions?

Should we get rid of all the old traditions?

Walk us through that.

Yeah.

So the, the chapter is called Survive the holidays and make new Traditions.

And so how this started is the very first.

Well, there was a few smaller holidays, but one of the bigger ones that we celebrated with Luke was Halloween.

We'd always go to a pumpkin patch and do all these traditions.

So that year, it was like the first big thing.

I'm like, we're going to the same pumpkin patch.

We're going to do everything the same.

And it was a disaster.

Like, kids are crying.

It was horrible.

Like, the, it felt so.

Like Luke was missing so much more because we went to the same place.

So then I decided actually the next thing was Thanksgiving.

And I was like, we are.

We're doing this totally different.

So I kind of did the extremes.

We're going to great Wolf Lodge, which is like a water slide with park and a hotel.

Did that for my parents.

But that didn't even feel like a holiday.

It was kind of weird.

So then it was Christmas.

And so then I was like, you know what?

We're gonna do something different.

We're gonna do old traditions with new.

Like, you can combine them.

So what that looks like for us specifically with Christmas.

We did it again this year is one of our traditions with Luke was always having cinnabons.

It's like the one time a year I eat them because they're 800 calories each.

But we would always do cinnabons on Christmas morning.

And what we decided to do is start combining it with.

Let's share your favorite Christmas memory while we eat the cinnabons.

And so now it's still a tradition.

In the beginning, it was like your favorite memory with Daddy, and now it's your favorite memory because I am remarried as well.

So it's like everyone who's there, your favorite Christmas memory could be about someone that you've lost or could be about anything.

And so that's one way that we combine those traditions.

Another tradition was Luke always put the star on top of the tree every single year.

But then we decided we'll just take turns with all the kids and they still know their order like five years later, though, who gets to put on the star this year?

You know, we did not go to the same Christmas tree farm that we did every year because I knew it would be too hard.

We went to a different Christmas tree farm.

So it was like still that tradition of cutting down the tree, but, but we do it somewhere else.

And so it's really a balance of the old with the new and, and not completely changing everything or doing exactly the same, because I tried both of those and they didn't work for us.

And so finding this kind of place where we do a little bit of both has been really, really valuable.

And so that's how I coach people on how to go into the holiday holidays.

I also talk about having a plan, like, if you're going to a Christmas party, maybe either go with, with somebody that is ready to leave when you're ready to leave, or have your own car so that you're not stuck there.

Because social events, which I have a whole chapter about social situations, too, they can be really difficult in the beginning.

And you're just like, I can't be around people anymore.

I need to go.

You know, so having a way out and then knowing you don't have to say yes to every single thing, you don't have to, like, really, you've got to remember, like, you're, you're supposed to take care of yourself like it's your job.

And, and so you're not going to do things that are going to not be good for your job.

And so those are some of the things that help for the holidays.

Yeah.

And I'm just going to say for regular listeners, yes, there's nothing wrong with having a Christmas tree.

I don't know why you bother.

I, I just.

Look, I, I don't understand a Christmas tree.

I've never had one.

Well, I did when my wife wanted one, but yeah, no, I just, and my, my audience knows, Michelle, that I, I, I, I got myself in trouble because I, I get people that tell me I have to have, have a Christmas tree because it used to be where when I, you know, I would say I don't have one.

And I said it again this year.

I happen to mention that I, because we moved into a rental, we didn't bring a Christmas.

My wife had a Christmas tree, we didn't bring.

You have to have a Christmas tree.

I always go, give me one reason I need a Christmas tree other than that you grew up with one.

And people go, ah, yeah, it's nostalgic to you, not to me.

I think you need a menorah and you got to light a candle every night, you know?

Right.

You know, how would you feel if I told you you had to do that?

But, but yeah, it's.

And I can tell you how to, how to curb the Cinnabon.

I'll tell you, I'll tell you know, here's how you curb the Cinnabuns.

If you go out and start your day with a cold plunge, realizing that you're doing that for your health, when you start with a cold plunge, you don't want the extra calories for like Cinnabon thing.

I'm just saying.

And if you do, if you do want to get a cold plunge, I'll just say two way, two different plunges you can get go to strivingforeternity.org plunge or strivingforattorney.org pod plunge is a company we, we work with.

They have more expensive plunges I think a little bit better quality.

But if you want something cheaper, pod company which is strivingfraternity.org pod we work with them as well.

They have co planned.

They also have saunas if you guys want something, you know, if you prefer the heat, I do both.

So.

But, but yeah, the, the holidays I think are a really difficult thing and I think what, what you did with, with your, your children of adding some of the new.

Especially when you remarry because they have their traditions.

I mean for my bride and I, Christmas was nothing.

I mean I didn't have any Christmas tradition.

She didn't have any Christmas tradition because they didn't have any religious back background.

You know, it wasn't, they were, they, they weren't atheist.

It was just, they didn't have anything in, in China so it wasn't.

Well actually in Hong Kong and so there wasn't any kind of upbringing with it and so we didn't have that.

My family had a big thing of Thanksgiving and so she just learned okay Thanksgiving is a big deal in.

In that family.

That's when they get together.

And so even, like, when you get married, you have to make that adjustment for the first time, so it.

You're gonna have that same morphing with holidays when you remarry.

And that's right.

I. I don't.

I think that trying to preserve what you had isn't.

Isn't always the best.

It may work.

You may want to, and it may be fine, but.

But.

But sometimes those memories are hard.

I'll tell you, okay.

I'll tell you a story about me that I don't think I've ever shared on this podcast, but it's a really neat story.

So my.

My mother passed away.

My dad realized he.

He, you know, he knew he wanted to.

To remarry.

And a friend, a neighbor of ours was teaching in school with someone who just lost her husband.

And so, because, you know, they exchanged phone numbers, and my dad calls her up, and she's like, well, I'm going away on vacation with the kids.

Call me in a couple weeks, okay?

He calls her up and he says, you know, maybe just a small talk, right?

How was.

How was the vacation?

She goes, well, it was really hard.

And he's like, oh, you know, why is that?

You know?

She said, well, this was the first vacation we do every year, and it was without my husband, and it was our anniversary.

And he says, well, what day was your anniversary?

So she names the date, and he gets silent and goes, you know, I really don't think that's very funny.

And she's, excuse me.

He goes, if you don't want to date me, just say so, but you don't have to insult me and.

And make fun of my anniversary date with my wife.

And she's like, it's like, who do you think you are?

She's like, that's my anniversary date.

So they start talking.

They not only were married the very same day they were married one town apart from one another, went to the same place on their honeymoon in the same room, just two floors above and below each other.

Oh, my goodness.

That's crazy.

And so.

So they ended up discussing more and more, like something like that brought about something they had in common.

It turns out I actually had met my stepbrother and stepsister when I was a child, when my mother was still alive, because my mother and stepmother had met through this mutual friend at a community pool.

And so.

That's crazy.

Yeah, it was like.

But when.

When they got married, there was.

There were very different Traditions that, that, that we had.

And you know, one of the things my dad, because we had, we had now we had five kids.

We had a mixed family.

And so now it's, it's a, you know, the ages, like I said, was seven to, to 13.

It, it's, it was a rough, you know, it was rough.

And one of the things that my dad and mom did was we would have family meetings, and it was really interesting what, what they did was they said, and there's no, nothing off topic.

You can, you could discuss anything in a family meeting.

There's not going to be a punishment.

There's not going to be a, you know, criticism, you know, even to a point where you, you, you could say, look, you know, my, my brother was the oldest.

He, he struggled with my stepmom being a replacement for mom.

And my parents made it open to have that discussion.

And it was something that we realized we, we were becoming one family.

That's why I don't refer to my stepbrother, stepsister as step, their brother and sister.

Well, unless of course, everyone looks at me and my sis, my stepsister, and they go, oh, I could tell your brother and sister right away, you look a lot alike.

We go, really?

We look a lot like.

You could tell?

Yeah, yeah, we're stepbrother sisters.

There's no blood between us.

And then they go, oh, so, yeah, we would use it that time.

But, but, you know, having, having that in the early years, we had a lot more of those family meetings as it went on.

It was more when my parents saw there was a need.

Yeah.

But if one child was struggling with something, chances are the others were as well.

And it was, it was.

I personally, it was easier for me to discuss things when I knew my siblings were struggling with the same thing.

Right.

And I did that really helpful thing for us and you know, just having that freedom to have the open conversation.

Yeah, that's great.

So one, one of your goals, I told you we are definitely going to talk about.

Because it is, it is the mindset.

As I was reading it, when I saw the title, I was like, okay.

And as I was going through it, I went, okay, we're definitely talking about this because it is what the mindset that is behind the ministry.

Striving for eternity.

It's, it's gold number 28.

Have an eternal perspective.

Because that's what I mean when I say striving for eternity.

That, that if we're focused on eternity and not the temporal things of Earth, then the struggles we have on Earth.

They.

Well, as the psalmist, the hymnist says, they.

They grow strangely dim.

Right.

It's.

I. I always put it this way, Michelle, that when I would, as a kid, went to Great Adventure or, you know, theme park that you might have by you, man, I could sit 45 minutes on a line waiting to get on a ride that was, you know, a second and a half.

Right?

Yeah.

Because I remember when Freefall opened it, the ride is a second and a half.

Yeah, we did 45 minutes and.

And we got off and we ran back in line and waited for an hour to do a second and a half ride.

And I remember as a parent taking my kids to the same ride, and I'm just sitting there like, this line is killing me.

Because I wasn't getting on the ride as a child.

The anticipation of the ride, I forgot all about the line.

But when the ride wasn't the anticipation, the only thing I thought about was that this temporal line.

And I just told my kids, find someone else to take you to Grandventure.

Yeah, we lived close enough.

It was 10 minutes away.

We have other people you could go with.

Yeah, but how important is.

First describe what you talk about in that.

That chapter of having an internal perspective.

Describe what that is.

Describe why that's important, especially for someone who has lost a spouse.

Yeah.

And a paternal perspective is so important because if we are just looking at right now and all of this, like, everything looks really grim, like, if this is it, like, this is like, what's the point of all, especially when you lose your spouse.

I really dove into every book about heaven, like, everything I could find about heaven, because it's like the person you love is there.

You want to.

It's like someone you love is on a trip.

You want to know what they're doing and, like, what it's like.

And so that's kind of what drove my wanting to know more about eternity.

But it's really, we need to know, like, what.

What is the point of everything?

And sometimes I ask God, like, after Luke died and then more bad things were happening.

This.

Even in the last couple years, I had a friend.

Her husband died of cancer, and then she got cancer, and she's still currently going through it.

And I just.

Just like, God, I don't understand, like, why.

And I always hear this, this world is not our home.

Like, this world is not our home.

Like, in this world, you will have trouble.

Like, we're going to have trouble, you know?

And so it's so important that we're able to focus on where we're going and, like, what God has for us in the meantime.

Like you said, like, this world is like the one second ride and then eternity is like.

Like the.

You know, the long one that we can't even like.

It kind of makes my head spin when I try to think about it.

But it's such a different, peaceful, amazing place that I love just learning more about heaven and studying it, because I love learning more about where Luke is and where we're going and, you know, remembering, like, to store up our treasures in heaven, not here.

Like, it's not about the material things and.

And all of that.

And I actually talk about it in this chapter about this vision that God gave me.

Like, I believe that God totally gave me this vision about when Luke was dying and what he was experiencing when.

When he died.

He was.

It was very peaceful death.

And he was actually, like, looking up to the right.

His eyes were, like, locked in the corner for, like, the last hour of his life.

And so we were talking to him and.

And God, first of all, he gave me a supernatural peace to lead my kids through this.

I wasn't.

I wasn't crying all these things.

And we were like, are you.

Are you looking at angels?

Like, what are you looking at?

And I went to this grief retreat a few months later, and we asked God to show us, like, where were you?

In my darkest hour.

And I closed my hat, my eyes, and I. I have this vision that I believe God gave me.

And I actually.

It sounds crazy, but this is what happened to me.

I had this experience, like, I was Luke and experiencing his death.

And the first thing was I could, like, feel that he was completely peaceful.

And so my first thought was, like, whoa, I don't have any pain, because he had a lot of pain.

And where his eyes were looking up and to the right, there was Jesus.

Like, just.

There was Jesus just, like, hanging out right there.

And in this vision, it was like everything that had happened, you know, when we were there, but from his perspective and following Jesus to the light.

And that's where this vision ended.

And it was just like this beautiful gift that God gave me to just show me that Luke was totally at peace.

Because I was always asking, like, wondering, what was.

He kept trying to talk, like, what was he trying to say?

What was he feeling?

What.

You know, and so it just gave me such a peace and just a little, tiny, tiny picture of what heaven's going to be like, you know?

And so keeping our eyes on that and not on all the, like, little troubles in the world.

And I think also when you go through a death, it changes your perspective on everything.

Like things that seem like a big deal are not really a big deal.

Like, well, I've been through my spouse dying.

This is nothing.

You know, it just kind of changes that in your mind.

Like we have a joke with, like I was just joking with the widow, know you yesterday.

We're like, well, we've been through worse things, you know, like we can, you know, if we can handle that, we can, you know, go through that.

But remembering what this, the whole purpose of life is anyways.

And so it's like letting God make beauty from the ashes and like, you know, showing people Jesus and eternity and all that.

So that's how I would answer that question.

Yeah, and.

And you know, just for my audience, I, as I always said, I can't exegete someone else's experience.

So I can't, I can't say what happened there.

But, and I will say, you know, son, you said maybe think people ask me why cold plunge?

I mean, for the other than for the health reasons.

Because I hate the cold.

And I always say it's the hardest thing I do all day.

I mean, after that five minutes in 45 degree water.

After that, anything I do the rest of the day is easy.

Exactly.

But to have a eternal perspective, let me read from Colossians 3.

3, because this is where we get it from.

For striving for eternity.

Therefore, if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

Set your mind on the things above, not the things that are on the earth.

For you died and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.

When Christ, who is our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with him in glory.

That's the idea that we're speaking of.

If you have that eternal perspective, if your mindset is so on Christ, then you could be like Paul, where, you know, when peop.

This is a thing where a lot of people miss.

When Paul is talking about whether to live or die.

And people read it to say like, well, to.

To live is better than death.

And that's not what he's saying.

He's not saying life is better than death.

And whether he doesn't know what to do, he wants to live and be.

He's actually saying death is better than life.

He's actually saying, because he says it explicitly there, that death is far better.

In other words, he would rather be with Christ.

But the rap report translation, while I'm stuck on earth.

It'll be ministry for you is, you know, and it's really interesting because he word he uses there in verse 23 is hard pressed.

So here's the context, right, verse 21 of Philippians 1:21.

For me to live is Christ, but to die is gain.

Now everyone knows that.

They say the life, they focus on the living.

But he says, but if I am to live on in the flesh, what that that means more labor, more fruitful labor for me, I don't know.

I don't know which to choose.

He says, but I am hard pressed between the two.

Do having a desire not to live, a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is.

For which is very much better.

Yet to remain in the flesh is necessary for your sake.

Now this word hard pressed in the Greek is a word that is used when they would slaughter cattle.

And what they would do is they would take a.

The, these rails that would be wide at one end and very narrow at the other end and they would have the cattle go in until it's wedged in and it can't move between the right and the left so that when they, they slit its throat, it doesn't hurt itself or anyone else.

They wedge it in there.

That's the word that he uses for this.

He's wedged in between life and death.

Death being far better, but still seeing the value of life today.

How could you go through the grief of a spouse?

Well, if you are focused on Christ, that is far better.

We, we right now we love Christ, but we're not with him the way we are with our Spouse.

But we were with our spouse in a way that we won't be for the rest of eternity when we focus on what it's like to be with Christ.

Yes, we're going to see our spouse again if they're believers.

And yet that's going to pale in comparison to seeing Christ.

And if we're fixated upon that, then this 70, 80, maybe 90 years of life, it's just a blip in, in the timeline of eternity.

And when we're focused on Christ and being with him and, and loving him, He.

He gets us through the hardships, quite frankly, because we love him more because we're going through it with Him.

But if you're struggling with the loss of a spouse and you're trying to do it alone, you're trying to do it in a worldly way.

And by the way, we didn't get into this, but Michelle's book, book deals with worldly ways people deal with finding comfort.

And it's a real problem.

But as believers, or even if you're not a believer, come to Christ and you're going to see there is a way of dealing with grief.

As Michelle said, you can have grief and joy.

Now, that may be different between grief and happiness.

Happiness is in what happens, but joy is when it's fixated upon something greater.

When your joy is in Christ, nothing can take that away.

Your happiness comes and goes.

But joy is a fixated thing.

And in fact, in 2nd Corinthians 5, what Paul says there is that when you have, when our.

He's talking about our temporal body failing, the more it fails, the more we want to be with Christ, the more we can't wait to be with Him.

In fact, what Paul says is the more our body fails, or in this case, the more we're saddened over the loss of a spouse, the more we want to cling to Christ and live.

And that gives us a greater joy and desire to be with Him.

And that makes the struggles of this earth pale in comparison.

Listen.

So if you've been listening through this and, and, and you've been struggling, maybe you're, you're going through this right now.

Let me speak to you for a moment.

I encourage you get Michelle's book, Widow Goals.

It's going to be available on at the Striving for Attorney store.

So if you go to strivingforattorney.org it's going to be up there in the store.

You'll also be able to get it on Amazon.

Widow Goals, Michelle Ebersole.

And so I'll encourage you to get that book to help you with some of the daily process.

But start not just with getting out of bed, but start right away with fixating on Christ.

Put your, your focus on Christ, your love for Christ.

And if you don't know Christ, recognize that you and I, you may be a more moral person than I am.

But if you're listening and you don't know Christ, your morality is not going to save you.

You don't get right with God by doing good things.

We can never do enough good things because we've already broken his law.

We've lied, we've stolen, we've coveted.

We're guilty in his sight.

The.

The thing is, we need someone who's perfect and has never sinned and is eternal to pay an eternal punishment.

Because God's infinitely holy, when we break his law, it has an infinite consequence to it.

So we need a being that's eternal, that's only God.

But we need someone that's like us, that's perfect and never broke God's law.

That's Jesus Christ.

He's God who became a man when he died on that cross.

He paid an attorney eternal fine for us.

So when hit, because his eternal eternality, his nature's eternal, it paid it, all of it.

And then he can offer us mercy because the full weight of the punishment was paid and now we could be set free.

So if you've never converted to Christ, may you do that.

Turn from self, turn to Christ.

And then, then as you fall in love with Christ more, you'll see that the struggles you're having in dealing with the loss will get, I don't want to say easier because it, in some sense, it never gets easier.

I'm not speaking as someone who lost a spouse, but I'm speaking as someone who lost a mother at the age of 10.

And it was hard, but it does change and it gives you something greater to focus on.

So I hope that might encourage some of you listening, listening.

I do want to encourage you.

Get the book Widow Goals.

In fact, may I encourage you to do something else?

If you're listening and you're realizing from how Michelle started that she realized in her church there wasn't any kind of thing for widows.

Maybe an idea you could do, buy a case of widow goals, or two cases, depending on the size of your church, and maybe hand them out for Christmas to those who.

Or just as a gift to those who are widows or just to people who aren't, so that they start making a plan ahead of time.

You now listening to this episode, may realize, hey, you know, it's good to have the plan ahead of time.

Some of these things need to be discussed before.

Maybe if your church has a library, get a bunch of stacks of them that you could just have available for folks so that when, when the unexpected happens, you have a resource you can quickly pull off the shelf and give to someone.

So maybe not just buy one, but buy several copies of Widow Goals by Michelle Ebersol.

And Michelle, anything that you want to close, I want to give you some time, let folks know how they can get a hold of you.

Maybe there's someone here who says, you know, I really need to attend one of those retreats.

How can folks do that?

How can they get a hold of you?

Let them know.

Anything else you want to share with us?

Yes, really, the best place to find everything we've talked about is widowgoals.org.

it has my podcast and the books.

In addition to the books, I also have a workbook and a leader's guide so you can take the entire program to your church.

And on the website I have a page made directly for pastors that you can share with your church.

I have a two minute video asking for pastors.

How are you supporting widows in your church?

Really what I see this program being is a grief share for widows and widowers.

So you can check that out and you can follow me on social media at Widow Ghouls.

It's pretty easy.

It's the name of my podcast.

I mean the name of my nonprofit and my book, my podcast.

If you're widowed or know someone who is is widowed too soon with the number two and there's over 200 episodes that you can listen to that pretty much deal with every widowed topic.

And if you want to email me, it's michelleiddlegoals.org now if you are listening.

To this podcast, it tells us you already know how to find a podcast.

Yeah.

So go look it up right now.

Michelle, I appreciate you coming on, but more so I appreciate you taking your grief and using it to be able to help others for Christ.

Writing this book, doing this ministry.

As.

As you and I had talked when we first talked about doing a show together, I realized how many people you were helping out the the ministry Christ has in your life.

In taking something like this and turning it around to be a blessing to others and help others to.

To know Christ, to serve Christ, to love Christ.

I. I really want to thank you you.

Oh well, thank you.

Thanks for having me.

And with that folks, that's a wrap.

This podcast is part of the Striving for Eternity ministry.

For more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church, go to Striving for eternity dot org.